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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Judge & Attorneys Debating Evidence For Trump Trial; Now: Prosecutors Argue Trump's Recent Posts Violate Gag Order. Aired 11- 11:30a ET

Aired April 15, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:01:30]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And you are looking live at the New York City Courthouse where behind closed doors right now, history is being made. Welcome to CNN special coverage. I'm Jake Tapper. Donald Trump's hush money cover up trial is now underway, making him the very first president in the history of the United States to face a criminal trial. And right now, the judge and the prosecutors and Trump's defense attorneys are debating a number of motions, including scheduling and who will be allowed to testify and what evidence can be presented to the jury. The process for selecting that jury is expected to start in just minutes.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins and Paula Reid are both live outside the courthouse in Manhattan. And Kaitlan, you're getting some new details from our teams inside the courtroom about what is unfolding at this exact second.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Yes, Jake, we're seeing a lot happening behind closed doors. Even though technically this hasn't actually started yet because jury selection has not gotten underway, they're still arguing about the other aspects of what is going to be allowed at this case. Key moments that people will obviously remember, the Access Hollywood tape. The judge reiterating that they can't actually play parts of that to the jury, but they will be able to read parts of it.

And another effort that the Trump team just tried to make, or that the prosecutors just tried to make, is to introduce evidence of these other allegations against Donald Trump that came out following the Access Hollywood tape and his subsequent denials that we saw on the campaign trail in 2016 in those crucial few days before the actual election got underway. I've got CNN's Paula Reid here with me.

And Paula, as we are looking at this, what they're arguing about is they want to be able to play Trump denying this and kind of just get at that. It seems the overall chaos of what was happening after this Access Hollywood tape came out.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. The judge just determined that he will not allow them to bring in allegations from three women who came out after the Access Hollywood tape and accused Trump of sexual assault. The judge said those claims are very prejudicial. And at this point, they're just a rumor, meaning they haven't gone to a court of law and been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

None of these are huge rulings in the grand scheme of this. These are all motions that you really have to handle before you go forward to trial. But what they all speak to is what was happening ahead of the election. And remember, the larger theory of this case is that Trump paid this money through Michael Cohen to Stormy Daniels to suppress news of their affair in the wake of the Access Hollywood tape to help his chances in the November election.

So when we're talking about the access Hollywood tape or we're talking about these allegations of sexual misconduct, the reason prosecutors want to bring that in is because it helps to bolster their case that this was all done in an effort to help Trump in 2016.

COLLINS: And so basically, some of these have been wins for the Trump team, and some of these have been wins for the prosecution of what's been happening in the last hour or so that they've been in that room.

REID: Yes, it's been win some, lose some for both sides so far. But again, these are mostly pretty minor evidentiary issues. But it reminds you just of how much was going on in those months before the election and how that's all going to play out during this case.

COLLINS: And Linda Moreno is also here back with me. And you are an expert at seeing how these juries get selected. You've been a part of this of process for a lot of high profile people, including Elizabeth Holmes, someone our audience will definitely recognize. When you're going in there, and they're deciding right now what the jurors are going to be able to hear. And so everything right now actually is a critical impact on the jurors themselves. And, you know, what did they hear, what influences them and how they ultimately decide this case?

LINDA MORENO, JURY CONSULTANT & ATTORNEY: Yes, of course, the evidence is discriminating in what they'll, in what they're going to hear here. I think what's important to step back a bit and take a look at what's really going on here from a defense perspective is this is not a referendum. That happens at the ballot box. This is a criminal trial.

[11:05:15]

And those jurors, when they walk in, they take an oath. And experience shows that a lot of times, most of the time, those jurors take it very, very seriously. I can give you the example. Mr. Trump says he can't get a fair trial in Manhattan. Actually, Mr. Smerconish on CNN had a poll just a couple of days ago, 47,000 people voted on the question whether Donald Trump could get a fair trial in Manhattan, 85 percent said yes, which was pretty stunning.

But I wanted to, just for the Pulse Nightclub shooting case, this was a trial where 49 people were killed and the trial took place a mile from the nightclub itself. And of course, the concern was, can you get a fair trial in that jurisdiction? And the truth was, we did because she was acquitted. COLLINS: So what would you be asking, if you're Trump's team and you're asking these jurors questions, trying to suss out who's going to be favorable to your client, the former president, who is, you know, notorious regardless of whether you are a supporter of his or a critic of his, how do they suss out what the jury looks like?

MORENO: I'm not so sure I want to be giving tips to either side, to either side. But of course, what they're looking for, the most highly opinionated juror is not going to make it. We see that the jurors that do make it onto these high profile cases are jurors who really are kind of middle of the road.

COLLINS: So if the guy riding behind us in his truck, blaring Trump music with, you know, derogatory photos of Joe Biden on his truck, he's not going to make it in this story.

MORENO: I think that's a cause challenge, what we would say in the profession. He would be stricken. Absolutely. But really, you are looking for those middle of the road people, discerning people. There's literature out there about introverts versus extroverts. And it turns out that introverts, a lot of people, a lot of lawyers don't like introverts because they think they're followers. They're going to follow the strongest person. But it turns out that introverts actually are very discerning.

COLLINS: Before we get to that process, we're still watching what's playing out. What do you -- what's the latest you're hearing Paula?

REID: Yes, well, something that has really caught Trump's attention, which is the first mention so far of Michael Cohen, Trump's former lawyer, a former consigliere who is at the center of this case. Now prosecutors are talking about the evidence they want to bring in related to the pressure that Cohen was facing not to flip on Trump.

Now, our colleagues inside the court, they report that Trump leaned forward to look very closely at his screen as prosecutors read tweets about Cohen from 2018, which the prosecutors say showed Trump telegraphing to Cohen that he needed to stay on message and not cooperate.

Now they're going back and forth about this evidence. And our colleagues say that while this is happening, Trump passed a note to his attorney, Todd Blanche, who looked at it, nodded several times. He's now tapping Blanche on the shoulder and they're whispering.

So Michael Cohen, this issue, of course, he, again, is at the center of this hush money scheme, he is going to be something that is clearly going to get a reaction out of Trump. This was one of his most loyal advisors and attorneys who has flipped on him and caused him a lot of legal problems. And he will be one of the key witnesses here. A problematic witness, but a witness nonetheless.

COLLINS: Well, and it's fascinating to also hear what you just were reporting from our team inside the room. Trump is in this conversation with Todd Blanche. I mean Trump is not a typical legal client. I think we all know that. I think his own attorneys and former attorneys that many of them would agree with that. He likes to have a lot of a say, an actual strategy on what's happening inside that courtroom.

And so one fascinating thing to watch will be how his dynamic with Todd Blanche plays out, because it's not guaranteed how it will go. He's very happy with him right now. But what does it look like as they're actually arguing this? I mean, we've seen Trump try to instruct his legal team in the room to get up and say something to the judge.

REID: Yes, absolutely. I mean, any lawyer who's ever represented him or even contemplated is well aware of what a challenging client he is. But if you talk to sources in and around the Trump legal team, they believe that Trump maybe has learned some lessons from the past three civil cases that we covered here in New York about his behavior.

So we're getting more updates from our team. I'll let you know as we get them. But it's clear, the one thing so far, the one evidentiary issue that caused Trump to bolt up, lean in, look at the screen, and start conversing with his lawyer, Michael Cohen, of course.

COLLINS: Surprising to no one including Michael Cohen, who knew he would be a big star in this case. Paula Reid, we'll continue with updates. Linda Moreno, obviously, as we are waiting to see what this jury selection looks like and gets underway, still sorting through what the jury is going to be able to actually hear.

Up next, we'll be joined by someone who knows the judge that is overseeing all of this and is going to have a big impact on shaping this trial right after a quick break.

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[11:14:47]

TAPPER: And we're back with our special coverage of Donald Trump's hush money cover up trial. We've got some breaking news out of the courtroom, so let's go straight to CNN's Paula Reed outside the courtroom. Paula, what's going on?

REID: And, Jake, we expected this would come up at some point today. And now prosecutors are raising the issue of Trump's expanded gag order that prohibits him from attacking witnesses, jurors, family members, of court personnel. And here, prosecutors are pointing to some social media posts that they argue violate the gag order, where Trump refers to, quote, two sleaze bags, which prosecutors say in this context are likely Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels, two expected witnesses in this case.

[11:15:28]

Now, the prosecutors argue that these witnesses are testifying at a great cost. They've incurred the wrath of Trump and his supporters. Now, Trump's defense attorney is pushing back. Todd Blanche separates some of the tweets and some of the Truth Social posts that Trump has made, saying that some of the tweets that have been referenced were from the past. But what's important is the social media post calling them two sleaze bags. The question, Jake, is whether the judge here will possibly do some sort of penalty for Trump, either hold him in contempt, fine him for violating this gag order. So this is an issue that we very much expected would come up. And this is going to be a constant challenge for the judge. How do you handle a defendant who has a history of violating gag orders?

TAPPER: All right, Paula Reid, thank you so much. Let's go to Laura Coates and Elie Honig, who are at the magic wall for us. Laura?

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: This is so important isn't Elie, because this is what we're talking about before about what's going to happen here with this judge, the gag order, this is before a jury is in panel. They're obviously on top of mind about what impact it could have on them. Will they be threatened? Will they be intimidated in some way or insulted?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This is one of the first moments of truth for Judge Merchan, who, of course, will be front and center throughout this trial. Now, Judge Merchan was a prosecutor long ago in his career. He's been a judge in New York for 17 years now. He's generally quite widely respected. He's described by people who've appeared in front of him as efficient and fair and in charge of his courtroom.

Now, before this --

COATES: He's not unknown.

HONIG: Yes. He is not unknown, nor are they unknown to him.

COATES: Right.

HONIG: He presided over a trial of the Trump Organization for tax fraud, separate issue. But he knows a lot of the players here. And he presided over the prosecution of Allen Weisselberg, who pled guilty in that case.

Now, of course, the judge, as recently as this morning, has denied various motions by Donald Trump to recuse himself, to remove himself off. The case based on his daughter's political activity. And as you said, the judge has issued this limited gag order that Donald Trump, we discussed in the beginning of the show appears to have violated over the weekend. And now the D.A. is asking the judge to take action on that.

COATES: One thing that is a possibility for the average defendant, if you violate the orders of release or of course, a gag order could be stepped back. Not likely to happen here at all.

HONIG: Yes, he's not going to get locked.

COATES: Step back, yes.

HONIG: But he may get fined. COATES: Let's see what else. Now we have the defense, though, and who's on this team. This is important. They're making these motions. You've worked with Todd Blanche before?

HONIG: Yes. Todd Blanche was a colleague of mine for several years, federal prosecutor at the Southern District of New York. He was in charge of the violent crimes unit. Very experienced trial lawyer. This is a challenge unlike one he's seen before. And he'll be aided by Susan Necheles, who is a very experienced, also long ago a prosecutor, but a very well known, very respected defense lawyer.

By the way, put aside your notions of the sort of flamboyant Trump lawyers of the past. This is no Rudy. This is no Sidney Powell. They're both experienced courtroom operators. They're tacticians. Todd, if anything, is soft spoken, it's sort of understated. So he doesn't fit the classic mold of the Trump defense attorney.

COATES: Remind people, though, in terms of who is going to lead, in the sense of does Trump direct his attorneys or do the attorneys direct them on issues of fact or legal strategy?

HONIG: Well, we say attorneys can only advise.

COATES: Yes.

HONIG: Right? You can't force. So that will be a dynamic that we'll be watching throughout.

COATES: Well, let's talk about who's actually going to prosecute this case. Obviously, Alvin Bragg is the D.A. He himself will not argue this case, which is very typical.

HONIG: Yes. Just to show you what a small world it is, I also worked with Alvin Bragg at the Southern District of New York, as with Todd Blanche. So they know each other. They were colleagues before. Alvin Bragg is the district attorney, took office in early 2022. He will not be trying the case. He'll probably show up in the courtroom to support his team. His team is extraordinarily experienced in the courtroom.

Susan Hoffinger will be leading the charge for the D.A.'s office. She has been in that office for over 25 years, tried many, many cases.

COATES: Matthew Colangelo, though, has been an issue for this Trump team.

HONIG: Yes. When you hear Donald Trump wrongly say this is a Biden prosecution, what he's pointing to, and it's an incredibly weak argument is that Matthew Colangelo was at DOJ a few years ago, but there is no evidence, no known connection between the Biden administration in this case.

COATES: Jake, back to you.

TAPPER: All right, Laura.

I'm back with three people familiar with the parties in this case. We are joined now by Adam Kaufmann, a former prosecutor in the Manhattan district attorney's office who knows Judge Merchan, the judge in this case. Also with us, Karen Agnifilo, former chief assistant district attorney for the Manhattan district attorney's office. We should note Karen is of counsel for a firm that represents Michael Cohen, but she has had no contact with Cohen, does not work on his case, and there are no restrictions on what she can say about this case. Also with this, of course, former federal prosecutor Elie Honig.

Adam, let me start with you. You know these prosecutors. You know this judge. You know this courthouse. What can you tell us about what you think is going on in that courtroom right now?

[11:20:02]

ADAM KAUFMANN, FORMER EXECUTIVE ASST. D.A., MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE: So right now I think, Jake, you know, the lawyers are putting up certain pretrial motions before jury selection begins, which is pretty common. I think one of the significant ones we heard talk of earlier was the motion to introduce other bad acts by Donald Trump, the accusations of sexual impropriety and how he responded to those.

And it sounds like Judge Merchan sort of said, no, you can't bring in those. The prejudicial effect would outweigh their probative value. Other matters, obviously, Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougal, those will be allowed to come in. But the judge is trying to strike a balance between the probative value and the prejudicial effect of these other sort of uncharged bad acts.

TAPPER: Karen, you know, the prosecutors. What did these first couple of rulings tell you about the judge's overall approach to the case?

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The judge is making sure that although there are probative information that the prosecution wants to bring in.

TAPPER: Explain what probative means.

AGNIFILO: So any evidence that tends to prove somebody's guilt is, quote unquote, probative, right? It's relevant. It helps the jury decide that whether or not someone is guilty, but the judge has to weigh whether or not it's overly prejudicial. So, for example, one of the things that the judge or that the prosecution wanted to bring in is at the time, they want to take the jury back to 2016 to feel what Donald Trump and his campaign was feeling at the time that they did these catch and kill stories and all that was going on in the background. And so the Access Hollywood tape is part of it. And then there was these accusations of sexual assault that also happened.

And it goes towards why Donald Trump wanted this story suppressed so badly. And that's what they're asking for. But the judge ruled regarding the other sexual assault. I'm not going to allow Trump to be prejudiced by rumor. And so that's the judge doing his job, right? He's saying that's overly prejudicial. That crosses the line.

And so every time that Donald Trump says that this judge is biased and he hates me and he's not ruling, this judge is going to show you over and over and over again that he's the judge. He is always going to follow the law and call balls and strikes as he sees them. I've been before this judge many times. That's his reputation. That's what he does. He's not overly chatty or friendly with the parties.

He keeps a distance, an appropriate distance, because he views himself as the neutral arbiter who doesn't take any side. And so all these accusations that Donald Trump has made against him really is belied by all the experience of people who've been before this judge. This is not that judge. And that ruling, I think, shows that.

TAPPER: So, and this is, I mean, this is also not a sexual assault case. So I guess the judge's reasoning was that could just prejudice the jury.

AGNIFILO: Exactly.

TAPPER: This is not a case about whether or not he assaulted anybody. This is a case about whether or not he falsified business records to cover up an affair. And, Elie, the judge will allow Karen McDougal to testify. Just to remind our viewers, she's the playmate of the year for Playboy magazine 1998, who alleges that she had a long term romantic relationship with Donald Trump.

HONIG: Right. So the fundamental question that a judge is considering in these scenarios is, does the evidence just show he's a bad guy? If that's all it shows, it's going to be out, not allowed in at the trial. If it goes, however, to some relevant issue, to some larger scheme, then the judge can let it in. And the fact that the judge is going to allow Ms. McDougal to testify tells me that he's going to allow the D.A. to put in front of the jury their election interference theory.

They're trying to explain the motive behind the alleged crime here. And they're going to say the motive was he was terrified he was going to lose the election. He'd just gotten very bad news out of the Access Hollywood tape. This is something that he did as a habit, as a systemic practice, and therefore, Karen McDougal will be allowed to testify.

TAPPER: Adam, are you surprised by any of the rulings that Judge Merchan has made as of now, in terms of what he is allowing to be introduced in the trial and what he is not allowing?

KAUFMANN: No, I really think he's sort of trying to, as Karen said, trying to play it straight down the middle. He's going to let in that which is truly probative, but he's going to keep out the things that are more sensational, more prejudicial. I think the ruling on the Access Hollywood tape is a great case in point where he's going to let it be referred to and the jury will see sort of the transcript of it and hear about it. But he's not going to play the tape itself, which in its sort of overarching vulgarity would be more prejudicial to the defense. So he's really trying to strike the balance, which is what judges are supposed to do.

[11:25:00] TAPPER: All right, fascinating stuff. We're following every detail as Donald Trump's hush money cover up trial is underway in New York. The court is about to resume after a quick break. We're also following major breaking news overseas. We're going to go live to Tel Aviv, Israel, as the world waits for Israel's response to the brazen attacks committed by Iran over the weekend. Anderson Cooper is going to talk to a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, next. Stay with us.

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[11:30:01]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And welcome back to CNN special coverage. I'm Anderson Cooper in Tel Aviv. As we wait to learn how Israel will respond to Iran's massive missile and drone attacks today.