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CNN Live Event/Special

Fifth Day Of Testimony In Trump Hush Money Trial; Ex-Attorney For Stormy Daniels And Karen McDougal Testifies; Judge Threatens To Jail Trump If He Violates Gag Order Again. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 30, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: About 6 a.m. They got about a 20-minute at-best notice. They said the university claims that it is because they erected tents on Sunday. The students say that they put those up because there were no true negotiations with the university about their demands for divestment and disclosure -- Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: All right, Dianne, thank you. Dianne Gallagher over at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. Polo Sandoval is over at Columbia University.

We'll check back with both of you. Erin, lots going on.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Wolf, and following his latest developments in the Trump trial, everyone can see on your screen just sort of our updates minute-by-minute. Keith Davidson still on the stand right now talking with prosecutor Joshua Steinglass doing the questioning for the prosecution. And you can see this.

Michael Cohen's not paying -- not paying up on the Stormy Daniels deal. And here it is. Davidson says, as he comes to believe, that Cohen did not have the authority to spend the money, even though Cohen had promised he was going to pay.

There's no money, there's no money, there's no money. And you're reaching this point where, you know, she says she's going to walk.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: And this is connecting some of the testimony that we heard earlier. You were in the courtroom when Cohen's banker was testifying about the urgency that Cohen came to him with when he set up that second shell company, how he took out a line of credit against his home and put that into a shell company, which was almost, that money was almost immediately sent to Mr. Davidson. Now we have another update.

It says, I think you can tell by these emails I was sending him, Cohen, there was a great level of frustration by me and my client. So that's Davidson talking about the frustration that he and Stormy Daniels felt with Michael Cohen, believing that they were not going to get paid, which is why they started to raise the possibility that she was going to renege on this whole agreement and possibly go public with her story. So as prosecutors here setting up why Cohen had to move so quickly and

reminding everyone why there was such a concern right now about Stormy Daniels' story getting out.

The Access Hollywood tape had just come out about a week prior. The election is just a few weeks away. Suddenly there is a lot of incentive for Cohen and possibly for Trump to suppress Daniels' story.

So that's what they're getting Mr. Davidson to talk about right now, that specific point in time.

BURNETT: Right, and building up really the intensity that was in that moment. In a sense, what they're trying to build up is the pressure that was on Michael Cohen to deliver. Because at this point, where they're right now, he was failing.

He was failing to deliver, repeatedly, and the Stormy Daniels story might be about to explode onto the scene.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: And what's interesting is there's one exchange where Cohen says to Davidson, he expresses frustration, says, what do you expect me to do my guys in five states today? Talking about then-candidate Trump, and we all remember those last weeks of the campaign, or at least I do, was being on that campaign, covering it, was all over the place, and was quite literally hitting three, four, five states a day. And that was when Davidson comes back and says, this is what he tells the prosecutors, this is when he concluded that Cohen did not have the authority to actually spend the money.

And I think one of the big questions, as we get another update, says, asked if he thought Daniels would ever see the money, Davidson says, never prior to the funding, no. And I think that underscores that the skepticism that had just continued to build after missing deadline, after deadline, after deadline, and that Cohen didn't have the authority. But also underscoring what we see the other side of that, which is the testimony when you were in the courtroom earlier, the urgency that Cohen was feeling as the real possibility of them turning away from this agreement was rising.

BURNETT: All right, as we're speaking, there's been a post on Trump's True Social, so it was, if there, someone's post, I don't know how this is happening, because he's actually in the courtroom, but he has just posted.

This judge has taken away my constitutional right to free speech -- free speech is all in caps. I am the only presidential candidate in history to be gagged -- caps. This whole, quote, trial is rigged, and by taking away my freedom of speech -- now we're all caps to the end -- this highly conflicted judge is rigging the presidential of 2024 election, election interference.

Now, the context here is, he's been fined $9,000 for nine violations of the gag order, not as many as were alleged, but almost all of them, one per -- $1,000 per violation, he's removed those posts from True Social, coming out with this one. Now this one slamming the judge, the judge is not subject to the gag order.

REID: Yes, the good news is that, that appeared to, it appeared to be within the bounds of the gag order, there are a lot of false --

BURNETT: Let's put that back up, because that's important to emphasize, emphasize the difference, yes.

REID: He is allowed under the gag order to criticize the judge or the district attorney Alvin Bragg. So here he goes after some of the decisions that the judge has, has made, for example, taking away his constitutional right to free speech. Well it's one thing we've learned over the past few months, it's that his right to free speech, even if he is a candidate for the White House, even it is political speech, a heightened level of protected speech, there are limits when you are a criminal defendant.

I'm the only presidential candidate in history to be gagged.

That is true, because you are also the only presidential candidate in history to be a criminal defendant.

[15:35:00]

And here the gag order is not meant to restrict his ability to engage in political speech, it is to protect the people who are involved in this process, like the jury, like the prosecutors who were not elected, like DA Alvin Bragg, family members of the judge and others. Now Trump and his lawyers have unsuccessfully argued that they should be able to criticize these people, but as we know, this gag order has repeatedly been found and upheld, because there have to be limits on what he says. If he's going to go after the jury, there's no way, if those folks fear for their safety, that this process can continue.

BURNETT: It's so important what Paula is saying, is that this appears to be in line with the gag order, that that would be -- abide by the technical rules because of the --

REID: It's actually inaccurate, but technically in line with the gag order. Right.

BURNETT: All right, Phil and Paula, thank you very much, and we continue to follow the second week of this crucial criminal trial, the testimony of Donald Trump's criminal trial -- hush money trial here in New York, our special coverage continues right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:26]

BLITZER: We continue our breaking news coverage of Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial. The courtroom is now in a quick break. They'll be back in a few minutes.

Our panel is here and I've got some major analysis. And I want your thoughts, everybody's thoughts first of all. Trump is railing against the judge in this case. He posted on his Truth Social media site. This judge has taken away my constitutional right to free speech. I am

the only presidential candidate in history to be gagged. This whole trial is rigged. And by taking away my freedom of speech, this highly conflicted judge is rigging the presidential of 2024 election. Election interference.

This is what he posted on Truth Social. Is this a violation of the gag order?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: As I read it, it's not. The judge was quite explicit that the two people that the foreign president is allowed to attack directly are number one, the judge, and number two, the district attorney, the elected district attorney himself, Alvin Bragg. The foreign president has done that there.

Now, we can ask the question of whether this is politically wise or good or how this resonates with voters. But under the law, he's allowed to say those things. And the gag order allows him to do it.

BLITZER: But the gag order prevented him from going after court staff. Isn't the judge a member of the court staff?

WILLIAMS: He segregated himself out and said, you can come after me. I am the boss. However, my -- because it started with the law clerk, the judge's career law clerk that the former president had identified by name and was putting information out about that actually got a lot of unwanted attention toward her way. So the judge made clear staff off limits, judge, the guy at the top, and the district attorney on limits.

BLITZER: What's your analysis -- Gloria?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Daughter off limits, too.

WILLIAMS: Daughter, as well.

BORGER: Yes. Look, I think this is not a violation of the gag order. It's Donald Trump complaining about the judge. And I think we're going to continue to hear that. I'm not quite sure when he did this because he was in court, and I don't know when he had the opportunity to. Maybe somebody did it on his behalf.

BLITZER: It was an aid that posted.

WILLIAMS: I don't think he'd push his son.

BORGER: I think somebody did it --

BLITZER: He doesn't delete. He doesn't send. Somebody does it on his behalf.

BORGER: -- on his behalf.

But just to get back to what's going on in court for a minute. Keith Davidson, I think, has been a very good witness for the prosecution so far. And he recounted when the money didn't come on time, he recounted how Michael Cohen told him, my guy was in several different states, and it was on the campaign trail, and that he couldn't make decisions in his absence. And that's another, you know, that's another way of saying that Donald Trump was very involved in the hush money payments.

And I think that, you know, Davidson has made that point that it was always Trump and that Michael Cohen was subservient.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. I mean, what Davidson, at this point, we're talking October 17, 2016, he is so frustrated that Michael Cohen has not sent payment yet. And he's detailing every excuse in the book that Michael Cohen is giving, that Secret Service has so many firewalls up.

And he just came to the conclusion he wasn't going to get paid. And so he actually sent, at the end of that day, without payment, Wolf, to Stormy Daniels, a missive to Michael Cohen that says, my client has said this is now null and void. She's out of this agreement.

No longer are you having rights to her story because she hasn't received payment. And by the way, I don't represent her anymore, so don't call me. And that's the level of frustration he had gotten at with Cohen refusing to pay.

And he said at one point, Cohen said, forget it. I'll just pay it myself. And we know that that's what ultimately happened.

BORGER: And we know what happened. And then we also saw Cohen's frustration and Cohen's feeling that everything was urgent when he was talking to the banker. Because he was in this situation where he needed to come up with this money. He couldn't get Donald Trump to deal with it or do it, so he had to do it himself. And he was panicking. And this was all kind of explained to him.

BLITZER: He was worried his wife would find out about their personal money.

BORGER: So he didn't just write a check because she handled the finances, so he took out this home equity loan, which she would not have known about. But again, the banker said everything was urgent with Michael Cohen, and now we know why.

CHALIAN: Of course. And Davidson said his perception was -- this is what he testified to right before break -- that Michael Cohen was trying to kick the can down the road until after the election.

[15:45:00]

Which ties it directly back to the fact that in Davidson's testimony, he believed this payment situation was directly related to Donald Trump as a candidate for president, and that this would be bad for the campaign.

BLITZER: Very quickly, Elliot, do you think when Michael Cohen actually comes into the courtroom and testifies, he'll back up all these allegations that we've been hearing about? WILLIAMS: The prosecutors certainly hope so. Again, you never know what a witness is going to say, and you never know about the gray areas in which their recollection is slightly different than what other witnesses said. Now, I have a hard time believing the prosecutors would have put up these various witnesses if, in fact, their testimony was actually going to conflict with each other.

They didn't maybe coach what they were going to say, but certainly have a sense as to what they're going to proceed with. So I think it will support -- they will support each other, and then the real fight will be on cross-examination when the defense gets to attack Michael Cohen.

BLITZER: That's going to be a lively moment indeed. Everybody will be standing by for that. Everyone, stick around.

Stay with CNN. Our special live coverage will continue right after another quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:32]

BURNETT: And welcome back to our special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial. Trump is the first U.S. president to be charged in a criminal case. And we are now nearing the end of yet another day of testimony in this unprecedented trial.

And to understand the context here, we're joined by presidential historian Douglas Brinkley, also a professor of history at Rice University. So, Doug, it's great to see you. So here we are, another day of testimony in this trial.

Having sat in that room, one of the things that stands out to me the most is just how intimate and small it is. And also how normal it is, in a sense, right? This is a courtroom. This is how things happen. Of course, the defendant, it's an extraordinary situation. Historical, historical --

This is Trump while leaving the courtroom today at the end of the testimony.

As you watch this all unfold, Doug, a former president of the United States coming in and out of that courtroom, in and out for a break, in and out for lunch, out here at the end of the day, just like any other defendant in all of those ways, what stands out to you?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENT HISTORIAN: Well, the big thing is that the former president of the United States, Donald Trump, is being charged for contempt. You know, he's been being fined for breaking the gag orders. He's kept posting on, you know, social media, on his campaign site.

And $9,000 means nothing to Trump, but the judge is now threatening incarceration. It seemed to be a very tough line that the judge today is undertaken. That stood out a lot. Also, history will be looking at this kind of split screen of Columbia University and then another part of New York, this trial. And it's seeming to feel like an unraveling of America.

And third takeaway, Erin, was not talked about a lot on CNN, but Ken Paxton being there on the front row with Eric Trump.

That is the -- that Texas attorney general who is constantly suing the Biden administration, is being charged for fraud and security improprieties, is always in the eye of the law and warring with the FBI, and is the single biggest voice that champions the abolishing of Roe v. Wade. He is the number one anti-women's right activist.

And there Trump has him as a kind of surrogate with his son on the front row.

BURNETT: And interested that that happened today. Right. I mean, it was also the first day that one of Trump's family members had been in the court when Eric Trump came in. And Donald Trump did take a moment to speak to him.

Just would you take a step back? You talk about the unraveling of America, Doug. But how do these visuals play for you in that sense? There is a sort of a -- there is an insecurity in all of it for anyone watching something like this, watching a former president as a criminal defendant in a trial on a 15th floor of a Manhattan courthouse.

BRINKLEY: Well, with all of our modernity and technological advances that we're still really beholden to people with sketchbooks in the courts, those drawings will live on, of course, forever. I see Donald Trump as being very frightened, not frightened that he's going to go to jail between now and the election. But I do believe that if he does really squawk one more time, he's allowed to go after the judge, but he cannot go after Cohen or Stormy Daniels, that Trump's really playing with fire.

So I think today he's been pacified a little. He's doing his sort of routine of half asleep, half awake. This is a waste of time.

But what one feels is the anger in Donald Trump and not angry at himself, but angry at what he feels is a witch hunt. And I just can't imagine Melania Trump dealing with McDougal and Daniels. How many others are out there? Is my husband a serial philanderer?

And I don't know how that works in a domestic environment at Mar-a- Lago. So Trump will seek revenge if he -- if he, you know, can escape the law between now and November and his elected president again.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Douglas Brinkley, thank you very much. Good to talk to you again. Of course, as he said, he's a presidential historian, author and professor at Rice University.

[15:55:00]

Our special coverage continues right after this brief break. We're in downtown Manhattan outside that court where another day of testimony has just concluded. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our special coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial. A former attorney for playmate Karen McDougal and adult film star Stormy Daniels has been on the stand for much of the afternoon. He detailed a very contentious relationship with ex-Trump lawyer Michael Cohen as the two men tried to work out a deal to sell and silence McDougal and Daniels' stories.

At one point, Davidson admitting under oath to calling Cohen a, quote, jerk.

[16:00:59]

Meanwhile, Trump, or rather someone working on his behalf, just posted on Truth Social blasting the gag order and the judge in the trial. This after Trump was fined some $9,000 this morning for violating the order multiple times.

To our viewers, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. I'll be back in two hours, 6 p.m. Eastern in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.