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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

IDF Launches "Precise And Targeted Operation" At Al-Shifa Hospital; GOP Sen. Mullin Challenges Witness To A Physical Fight; Georgia Prosecutor: Trump Case Could Stretch Into 2025. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired November 14, 2023 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[21:00:33]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Tonight, straight from THE SOURCE.

Breaking news, as Israel says it is carrying out a targeted operation, on the largest hospital, in Gaza. The latest from the ground, in just a moment.

Plus, a government shutdown likely averted, and apparently a few fistfights as well. Tempers were flaring, on Capitol Hill, today. And the Congressman, who says he was sucker punched by Kevin McCarthy, is here. And yes, there is audio.

Also, the Georgia prosecutor, who was leading that election case, against Donald Trump, has a new trial prediction that it could stretch into 2025.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: We do start, tonight, with breaking news, as Israel says that, right now, its troops are carrying out what it describes, as a precise and targeted operation, inside the Al-Shifa Hospital complex, in Gaza. That's the largest hospital, in the Gaza Strip.

Israel says there's a Hamas command center underneath it. The White House says it has intelligence, its own intelligence, to backup those assertions, and officials adding today, that Hamas is also using the hospital, to store weapons and ammunition.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is live, on the ground, in Sderot, Israel.

Jeremy, what do we know, about this? Given this is the largest hospital, in Gaza, what exactly does the Israeli Military say that it is doing, right now, inside that complex?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kaitlan, this is an extremely significant moment, in Israel's war, against Hamas.

We have watched, as Israeli forces, in recent days and weeks, have been building towards this moment, bringing their forces, closer and closer, first, to Gaza City, and then to the Al-Shifa Hospital, Gaza's largest hospital.

Tonight, the Israel Defense Forces say that they are carrying out a targeted and precise operation. They're being very specific, saying that this is being carried out, not on the entire hospital complex, but on a specified area, of the hospital, that they say is being driven by intelligence and, quote, "Operational necessity."

They say this operation is designed, to target Hamas, and to rescue our hostages, in this statement. They also note that there will be medical teams, and Arabic speakers, as part of this, and that the units involved have undergone specific training, to try and minimize any potential harm, to civilians, who may be at that area of the hospital.

We heard, earlier tonight, from one of the IDF spokesman. I want you to listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. COL. PETER LERNER, IDF SPOKESPERSON: So, we're not overrunning the hospital. But we are conducting a very precise and targeted operation, against a specific location, where we have intelligence, and indeed, operational necessity, in order to defeat Hamas, and perhaps rescue hostages.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And what's really important to note here is the fact that there are still thousands of people, inside this hospital complex, an estimated 1,500 patients and medical staff, and thousands more, who are sheltering, on the grounds, of the complex, many of them already displaced, from other parts of the Gaza Strip.

Tonight, we, our Team spoke with Khader Al Za'anoun, a journalist for the Palestinian WAFA News Agency, who says that he saw tanks in the hospital complex. Active gunfights could be heard, across the hospital yard.

And a doctor, at the complex, also told CNN, that hospital staff, were given about 30 minutes warning, before Israeli troops began moving into the hospital complex, to carry out their operations.

Now, we don't know of for sure whether or not there are hostages there. But you heard the IDF spokesman, has repeatedly indicated, tonight, that there may be hostages, on the complex, and that may be part of this ground operation, that's being carried out, right now.

COLLINS: And Jeremy, what did you make of how -- we heard from the White House, just a few hours ago, John Kirby, from the National Security Council, backing up those assertions, from Israel, saying that there is U.S. intelligence that also the U.S. believes that proves that Hamas is using the Al-Shifa Hospital, as a command center, as a place to store weapons, and to store ammunition.

DIAMOND: Well, the timing is really interesting, because Israel has been making these allegations, for weeks, about a range of hospitals, but most of all, talking about Al-Shifa Hospital, saying that Hamas operates a massive command and control complex, below its grounds.

[21:05:00]

The evidence that they have provided for that, we cannot independently verify, at this stage.

But it is interesting that it was today that John Kirby, the Spokesman for the National Security Council, for the first time, publicly confirms that the U.S. does indeed believe that there is a command node, below Al-Shifa Hospital that Hamas operates, that Palestinian Islamic Jihad also uses hospitals, for its operations, may be stashing weapons, and may also be holding hostages there.

Now, that being said, President Biden, for his part, said yesterday that he believed that Israel should make sure, to protect these hospitals, should carry out less-intrusive actions, at these hospitals.

And Kirby, today, saying that that would mean essentially not carrying out massive airstrikes, from the air, on these hospitals, instead carrying out perhaps what we are seeing, tonight, a more precise operation, although we will have to wait and see, whether or not that is the case, when we get more videos, and are able to speak to people inside.

Kaitlan?

COLLINS: Yes. And Jeremy, I should note, just for our audience knows as well, we are just learning this that Prime Minister Netanyahu, and President Biden, did speak, on the phone, today. Of course, they've had a lot of conversations, since October the 7th. But that is notable as well, given that timing there.

Jeremy Diamond, in Sderot, we'll continue to check back in with you, as these developments are happening, in this hour, breaking news, happening.

But for Military perspective, on what this operation could result in, what it could be looking like, on the ground, I want to bring in retired Air Force Colonel, Cedric Leighton, who is here with me.

You just heard from Jeremy there, and that sound, from the IDF spokesperson. Do we believe that there could be potentially hostages here? And that could be part of why they're calling this, this precise, specific operation?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think so, Kaitlan. I mean, it's, clear that there's no guarantee, the hostages are there.

But it seems as if, based on the IDF press release, and how they've phrased things, and how the White House is phrasing things, it does seem as if they believe that hostages, either are there, or were in that Al-Shifa Hospital compound.

And so, if that's the case, they want to get those hostages out as quickly as possible. And a hostage rescue operation, if this is what this is, is certainly something that requires a lot of precise action, precise intelligence, and a very concerted effort, to go in, and very precisely.

COLLINS: Well, and my question here is, I was just texting with an IDF spokesperson. And I asked, were there evacuations today, of either patients, inside that hospital? Because we know, just yesterday, there were -- or the thousands of people that we believed, as our last update, that were sheltering outside. They said they couldn't comment beyond what the IDF had said publicly.

But that is a question here. I mean, can you carry out part of an operation, on part of a hospital, and everyone else is fine? I mean, what does that actually look like?

LEIGHTON: Yes, it really depends on the geography of the hospital. Now, we know that the Al-Shifa compound has really multiple buildings. So, there are, you know, there's certainly the possibility that they could have honed in, from a Military perspective, on one particular area, if they believe the hostages are there, for example, or if they believe the command center is there, for Hamas.

But if that's the case, then yes, it is possible, for other people, to stay in that area, without being harmed. But it is, certainly risky. And there are situations, where, if there's an overflow of personnel from, let's say, the command center, or if there's an overflow of the hostages, from one area to the other, that could complicate things.

So, it's a very risky situation. We don't know yet precisely where everything is, in terms of where the people are, and even which buildings they've used, for these, for each specific activity.

But we do know, where, at least the intelligence folks know, where the operation rooms are, for the hospital, where the maternity ward would be, and things like that. So, it's, those are the kinds of things that would be part of a preparation, until preparation, of an operation, like this.

COLLINS: But given that, what does that look like given -- I mean, it's 4 o'clock, in the morning, in Gaza, right now. So, what does that -- how does that factor into the fact that it's nighttime, and they're going in?

We know there's armored vehicles. We've heard a bit about some, from a doctor there, who said they could hear some firefight. But that's basically the extent of what we've been able to learn, from the ground, in Gaza. LEIGHTON: So, Special Operations often occur at night, because the night is the special operators' friend. In essence, they use night vision goggles, they use other systems, to basically penetrate the darkness.

They are banking on the fact that they might gain surprise, that they might be able to make, you know, have the Hamas fighters not be able to grab any night vision goggles that they might have. So, they're hoping, for a surprise. And they're hoping to basically take them out, while they can. And --

COLLINS: Do we know if Hamas has night vision goggles? Do they have that capability?

LEIGHTON: They don't have an indigenous capability. But night vision goggles can be purchased, on the open market. So, it's something that they should suppose that they have, and be prepared for that as well.

[21:10:00]

COLLINS: And so, when you look at this, I mean, is this something that can be carried out, as they go, and look at this, where the White House is saying, "We don't want firefights inside these hospitals. We don't want strikes from above." What's their option here?

LEIGHTON: So, their option is basically what they're doing, right now, Kaitlan, which is a commando raid. And that is how that would work. It's a very precise, very targeted operation. If you bomb something, it's going to be much less precise, even with precision-guided munitions.

And so, what the White House is basically telling the Israelis is be as precise as you possibly can be. And if you have the intelligence, to go after, a target like this, where they think there might be hostages, or where they think there's a command center, do that and use as precise a method, as you can. And a commando raid would be one of those precise methods.

COLLINS: Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you so much, for your expertise, on this. Highly needed, at this moment.

LEIGHTON: Thank you.

COLLINS: Also joining us tonight, Axios foreign policy reporter, Barak Ravid.

Barak, I'm just curious, right off the bat, what you've heard from sources, tonight, about what the purpose of this operation is.

BARAK RAVID, AXIOS FOREIGN POLICY REPORTER: Good evening, Kaitlan.

So, again, right now, I think all we know, is what the IDF has publicly said. I don't have anything for you other than that, because I think this operation is taking place, as we speak, right now.

And I have to say, I don't think the IDF would go into the hospital, and take -- carry out such an operation, if there wasn't a high-value target, inside, either a very senior Hamas official, who's hiding there, or hostages. I don't think that they would go in for any other reason.

COLLINS: OK. That's, I mean, that could be really important here, because they say this is a precise operation. So, that seems to indicate to you that they are going after a pretty specific target here?

RAVID: Yes, definitely.

Because, look, it's a high-risk operation, and all eyes are on Shifa Hospital, for several days now. And it's, if this thing arrives, at the White House daily briefing, then this means that everyone are looking at the hospital, and what's going on there.

There are thousands of people there, people who are just taking shelter, Palestinian civilians. So, if you go on such an operation, in the middle of the night, it means that you know that there's something there that, is worth it that is worth the risk. And that if you do it, and if you manage to do it, you're going to get a lot of benefits out of it.

COLLINS: Yes. What do you make of the timing, given John Kirby, from the White House, is bringing this up earlier, on Air Force One, with reporters.

We've now learned President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu had another conversation, today, as the White House was offering pretty specific warnings, about what they thought was acceptable to happen, inside a hospital.

RAVID: Yes. So, I, right after this operation started, like an hour ago, I approached the White House, and I asked White House officials, whether the fact that John Kirby said, what he said in the briefing, whether that can insinuate that they had any early notice, about what was going to happen. They said that it's not the case.

But I think we will know more details about that as things develop. I think that if this is really an operation to release hostages, I'm pretty sure that the U.S. got some sort of early notification.

COLLINS: OK. So, they seem to be saying that they hadn't. You believe that they had.

There's a question here of whether or not there are hostages, potentially inside that complex. And I should note that we don't know. President Biden sounded very hopeful today, about the potential for a deal being made, Barak.

What are you hearing from sources on, if they're any closer to a deal for hostages? Or if they're just as far as apart as they were, last week?

RAVID: I think what describes it best is that for several days now, we've been in the situation of almost, almost, almost not good enough, meaning, we're very close. But every time, every day, there's something else that comes up, sort of the last minute, and shows that there are still gaps, between the parties.

And I think that what they're trying to find now, is this balance between the number of hostages that Hamas is willing to release, and the number of days that Israel is willing to give, for some sort of a temporary ceasefire. And I don't think that they found this balance yet.

The Israeli war cabinet convened, earlier tonight, for several hours. I still don't know the results of that meeting.

[21:15:00]

I think we will see more developments, in the coming days. Brett McGurk, President Biden's senior Middle East adviser will be in Qatar, on Sunday. He will be in Israel, tomorrow. So, I think things are moving. But I'm not sure we're there yet.

And especially, by the way, if what we see now, at Al-Shifa Hospital, is indeed an operation, to release hostages, that opens up the whole story, and we'll start from scratch.

COLLINS: Yes. Barak Ravid, great reporting. Thank you very much.

RAVID: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Coming up, it looks like, on Capitol Hill, the federal government is not going to be shutting down, in just three days from now.

But decorum, on Capitol Hill, may have totally disintegrated, today.

One senator challenged a witness, at a hearing, to a fight.

A sitting member of Congress accused the former Speaker, of sucker punching him, in the back. He's also here. We'll talk to him, next.

Plus, Georgia prosecutors, seeking an emergency protective order, after the leak of those confidential videos that you saw, here, last night, in the Trump election interference case.

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COLLINS: It appears that all hell has broken loose, on Capitol Hill, today.

There was some good news. The House passed a bill, so the government likely won't -- avert a shutdown. We're waiting to see what the Senate does with it. That is their very basic duty, to keep the government open and funded.

And yet, tensions are still erupting, basically everywhere. Speaker Mike Johnson seemed to call it today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Members have been here for, as Leader Scalise said, for 10 weeks. This place is a pressure cooker.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:20:00]

COLLINS: 10 whole weeks. A pressure cooker? Maybe a WWE Steel Cage match. Because just minutes before we heard that assessment, from the new Speaker, anger came to a tipping point, between the old Speaker, and one of the eight Republicans, who voted to oust him.

Congressman Tim Burchett of Tennessee, claiming he now was sucker punched, in the back, by Kevin McCarthy. We also have audio, of just this entire incident, so you can hear for yourself, what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): I think it went alright... sorry Kevin didn't mean to elbow, why'd you elbow me in the back, Kevin?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no, I felt so bad.

BURCHETT: Hey Kevin? You got any guts? Jerk.

Hey, Kevin, why'd you elbow me in the back?

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I didn't.

BURCHETT: You did so, the reporter said it right there. What kind of chicken move is that?

MCCARTHY: I did not. Come on.

BURCHETT: You're -- you're pathetic, man.

MCCARTHY: Come on.

BURCHETT: You're so pathetic.

MCCARTHY: Thank you, Tim.

BURCHETT: What a jerk. You need security, Kevin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: It did not end there. McCarthy later denied, hitting Burchett, saying quote, "If I kidney punched someone, they would be on the ground."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BURCHETT: It was a clean shot to the kidneys.

You just don't expect a guy who was at one time three steps away from the White House to sucker -- hit you with a sucker punch in the hallway.

MCCARTHY: No, I would not elbow him. I would not hit him in a kidney.

I did not run and hit the guy. I did not kidney punch him. I did not shooed (ph) anything like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You didn't shove him?

MCCARTHY: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: These are taxpayer-funded lawmakers, we're talking about here.

I should note Congressman Burchett is here live. We're going to speak to him, in just a second.

But just to give you a full picture of the full crazy, on Capitol Hill, today, what if I told you that a Senator challenged a witness, at a hearing, to stand his butt up and fight? With that offer accepted, only to be broken up before it came to blows, by Senator Bernie Sanders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): If you want to run your mouth, we can be two consenting adults, we can finish it here.

SEAN M. O'BRIEN, GENERAL PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF TEAMSTERS: OK, that's fine. Perfect.

MULLIN: You want to do it now?

O'BRIEN: I'd love to do right now.

MULLIN: Well stand your butt up, then.

O'BRIEN: You stand your butt up, big guy.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Oh, hold on. Oh, hold -- stop it. Mullin?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on.

O'BRIEN: Is that your solution to every problem?

SANDERS: Mullin? Oh no, sit down. Sit down.

MULLIN: That's why you're a clown. Look at you.

SANDERS: You know, you're a United States senator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: No, you are not imagining things. You just saw that. That was Republican senator, Markwayne Mullin, from Oklahoma, picking a physical fight, with the Teamsters President, Sean O'Brien, in what was supposed to be a hearing, on labor unions.

But that's not even all of it. There was more boiling over, in that congressional pressure cooker today. I present to you, James Comer, the Republican Chairman of the House Oversight Committee, and Democrat congressman, Jared Moskowitz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): That is bull (bleep).

You look like a Smurf, here, just going around and all this stuff.

REP. JARED MOSKOWITZ (D-FL): You're doing stuff with your brother. The American people have the same question.

COMER: An investigation of public corruption --

MOSKOWITZ: Why should they believe you?

COMER: -- that this committee is doing.

You've already been proven a liar, today.

MOSKOWITZ: Who's proven me a liar? You?

COMER: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: All of that actually happened, just today, within the span of a few hours, in Congress, the People's house, not a junior high school.

Let's go straight to the source now, with Tennessee Republican, Congressman Tim Burchett.

Congressman, you just heard Kevin McCarthy, there, denying what you said. What's your response to that?

BURCHETT: Well, thank you, for having me, on this, Collins.

I noticed, when he got to the part about that, his voice got a few octaves higher. I don't know if you've caught that or not. That's a pretty good indicator.

But actually, I never said it, in the beginning. It was Claudia Grisales, from NPR. If you follow her on Twitter, @cgrisales. She actually documented the whole series of events pretty well.

And I was called by reporters, about it, when I was on the House floor, because I was a little shocked, that there wasn't any really reporters, around, when it happened, just her. And it was a narrow -- it was in the hallway, outside of Republican conference meeting.

And I was standing there. And I got -- somebody hit me in the back, and I leaned forward a little bit. And she was -- she said, "Man, I've been here a long time," or something like that, "and I have never seen anything like that."

And then, I turned to Kevin, and said something to him. And he, of course, as he does, he had his little security detail. And he marched off. And then, I went and confronted him about it.

But I think this really just shows to America, why the eight of us did what we did. This is the man that was three steps away from the White House.

And it's, I wish we could get back to talking about a balanced budget, or the wall -- or building a wall between us and Mexico, maybe or, or even talking about helping out the folks, in Israel.

But these are the kinds of things that folks like that do.

COLLINS: So?

BURCHETT: And it's a big distraction.

COLLINS: Just to be clear, you're saying he's lying, when he says he didn't hit you?

[21:25:00]

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am. I mean, it's -- well, all you have to do is read what the lady from NPR said. I think that's, you know? And NPR, ma'am? You know my voting record. Or if you don't, it's every conservative rating agency, in the country, writes me, in the high 90 percentile. And so, I dare say I would not be the friend of -- to a lot of the NPR listeners. So, she has no reason to cover for me.

COLLINS: Well, you were saying, I mean --

BURCHETT: Claudia.

COLLINS: -- that he punched you in your kidneys. I mean, are you in pain, tonight? Have you seen a doctor?

BURCHETT: No. And it doesn't really matter. That's not the point at all. Even if I was, I wouldn't talk about it. I'm not filing an ethics complaint on him. It's just -- it's just a sad asterisk, on his -- on the end of his career.

COLLINS: I mean, you seem to think that this --

BURCHETT: And he's just spiraling out of control.

COLLINS: You seem to think that this. Do you believe this has something to do with the fact that you did vote to oust him as House Speaker?

BURCHETT: Absolutely, ma'am. There's only eight of us. There's 435 congressmen. I'm standing in a hallway. And then, he gives -- he gave at least four different explanations. One, he said he was brushing me aside. Another one, he said, he didn't see me, I wasn't there. Another one, he said, something else. And then, the final one, he said, "If I had hit him, he'd have known it," that kind of thing. I mean, it's just pathetic, is what it is.

And I, like I said, I'm not the one. I haven't commented on it on Twitter. I haven't put it out on my Twitter account. It was done by NPR, a lady at NPR. So, I was just --

COLLINS: Yes, he --

BURCHETT: -- I'm answering the questions, from the reporters, like yourself, about it. It was just an unfortunate situation.

COLLINS: He said, if he had kidney punched someone, they would be on the ground.

I mean, Congressman, we've had you, on here, before. We've talked about what's going on, on Capitol Hill.

BURCHETT: Yes.

COLLINS: Republicans, today, did not exactly cover themselves in glory, between this playing out, what happened with Senator Mullin, what happened with Chairman Comer calling -- calling a congress -- a fellow congressman, a "Smurf," in a hearing.

I mean, this is pretty juvenile stuff, for a bunch of lawmakers. Is this not embarrassing for House Republicans --

BURCHETT: Well, I --

COLLINS: -- and Republican senators?

BURCHETT: I can't speak for the rest of them.

And I can't speak for Kevin McCarthy. But I think it's indicative of the type of person that he is. And what he's shown is, you know, in the past, he made fun of me, for praying over my decision, on what to do about him.

And, today, he walked by, and it was obviously the lady from NPR, put it out on Twitter. And I think it had over 4 million views, if you can believe that. That's pretty much viral, I would say.

And then, he denied it. But then, he said he was going to call me, and talk to me about it in-person.

COLLINS: Did he call you?

BURCHETT: Heck, no, he didn't call me. You know that. He's going to --

COLLINS: Would you pick up if he did?

BURCHETT: Oh, absolutely, I would. Absolutely, I would. I just -- I'm just -- it's just disappointing that that's the way he's going to end his career, spiraling out of control.

COLLINS: Can --

BURCHETT: And it's just disappointing, because we should be dealing with the budget, and all these other things that I said that are really, in a crisis stage, right now. And people, like himself, it's all about them, and their childish activities.

COLLINS: Well, and you're pretty blunt, Congressman. I mean, you often seem to speak your mind, certainly on this program. If he did call you, what would you say to Kevin McCarthy?

BURCHETT: I forgive him. I've said several prayers, for him, today, ma'am.

Something's really inside his heart, right now. And he's going to -- he's going to continue doing these type of activities, and it's going to continue causing him embarrassment, upon his family, and his district, and frankly, the Republican caucus. It shouldn't. It should just be on him. But it just seems, that seems to be the way it goes.

I would hope he could find some peace, in his life, because going out bitter like this is not the way to go. He was three steps away from being in the White House. And that's the way he's going out. And that's just a sad commentary, on him. Nothing else.

COLLINS: Congressman Tim Burchett, thank you, for your time, tonight.

BURCHETT: Thank you so much for having me on again, ma'am. It's always a pleasure.

COLLINS: As I mentioned, that was not the only crazy thing to happen, in Washington, today. We barely even touched on the Senator, who challenged a committee witness, to a fight. Or the Committee chairman, who called his colleague, not only that "Smurf" comment, also a "Liar."

To break down what is going on, on Capitol Hill, or at least try, Dana Bash is here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:33:02]

COLLINS: A Senator looking to throw down, with a witness, the same day that the former Speaker of the House is accused of sucker punching one of a member of the Republican conference.

This, from the same Congress, where members had to be held back, from brawling, on the floor. Remember that, not that long ago? Last month, also during that closed-door meeting, when we heard that it had to basically end, because some members were worried that fists were going to start flying.

For more on all of this, I'm joined, tonight, by CNN's Chief Political Correspondent, Dana Bash, the Host of "INSIDE POLITICS," and "STATE OF THE UNION."

Dana Bash, you covered Capitol Hill, for forever. You know that place better than almost anyone. What's happening? What's going on?

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: What's going on? Tensions are quite high. And that is obvious.

And, I think, one of the main differences, between now, and what we've seen before, is that you've sort of seen the erosion, and I'm kind of obsessed with this, the erosion of shame in our politics.

Certainly for the past eight years, where people just who are Democrats, and Republicans, who are historically more withheld -- they withhold rather their emotions because they want to look like a gentleman. That's just, we're not seeing that anymore.

Now, having said that, Kaitlan, way, way, way before our time, in the 1800s, we definitely saw a different version of this. I mean, Charles Sumner was caned because of something really important, like the end of slavery. He was a Senator, who was caned, and he was really hurt.

And then, when you think about shame, they used to have a more refined way of fighting. They used to have duels. I mean, we all know now, thanks to Lin-Manuel Miranda that that is how Alexander Hamilton died.

So, it's not as if tensions didn't get high. They just expressed it in a very different way. And of course, they expressed it without cameras everywhere, and without social media.

[21:35:00]

COLLINS: Dana, I'm so glad you brought up the 1800s, because we were thinking about the 1800s, earlier today, when Senator Mullin, the one --

BASH: As one does.

COLLINS: -- the one Senator that we saw today, trying to fight a witness, in today's hearing. I mean, he went to the point of taking off his wedding ring, which I loved our Capitol Hill reporter, Melanie Zanona, said was the equivalent of taking off hoop earrings.

He was, on TV, tonight, talking about what he -- his response to that. Just I want everyone to listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MULLIN: Keep in mind, too, this isn't anything new. Andrew Jackson challenged two people -- or nine people to a duel, when he was President. And he also knocked one guy out at a White House dinner. There has been canings before in the Senate, too. Maybe we should bring some of that back, keep people from thinking they're so tough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Maybe we should bring some of that back? BASH: I'm not sure that that's really the answer.

Look, in his case, if you go back, he has had a very tense, and very hot relationship, not just tense, hot relationship, with the Teamsters President, who he almost threw down with today. I mean, the Teamsters President was tweeting, and kind of egging him on, which is what spurred what happened today.

Kaitlan, you'll appreciate this. When all of this was going down, there were text threads happening. And one of our producers, on "STATE OF THE UNION," Greg Hughes, who is not only funny, but quite evolved, said, "You know, this is just proof that men are just too emotional to lead."

COLLINS: Oh, Greg. I mean, well, speaking --

BASH: Mic drop.

COLLINS: -- speaking of men, and mics, you -- to look at the bigger picture of this, because it's not just happening in a vacuum. It's not just one instance. I mean, these three instances occurred within moments of one another --

BASH: Yes.

COLLINS: -- in the span of a few hours, on Capitol Hill, today.

It was less than two weeks ago that when Speaker Mike Johnson, three weeks ago, when he got the gavel that he said this about what the Republican Party, on Capitol Hill, was looking like.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: I was just in our Republican conference meeting. And there is such a great feeling of esprit de corps amongst House Republicans. We're not only unified. We are energized.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: How does he deal with this, this kind of Conference, going forward, trying to get things passed, and get things done?

BASH: Well, he's also the Speaker, who just today said, "We got to get out of here, because tensions are so high." So, he learned very, very quickly, the reality. And he's been a witness to it. He certainly hasn't been there very long. But he's been there long enough to understand how incredibly high the tensions are.

Look, I mean, we're sort of making light of it. But it is indicative of some real problems, with our democracy, that people, who are in elected positions, can't handle things, in a way, that is not just basic decorum, but in a way, that you introduced your segment like this, Kaitlan, that you'd would want your children to act like, that you would want your little children to act like, your middle school children, anybody, in your life. And this is, let's hope that there is a sense of like embarrassment that everybody kind of gets their act together. But it's unclear that that's going to happen anytime soon. I'm sure, you would agree.

COLLINS: Yes. Amazing that they were saying this is what happens, when lawmakers spend just 10 weeks, on Capitol Hill. I think a lot of other people would say they --

BASH: I know.

COLLINS: -- obviously spend a lot longer at work, and don't act like that, in their work places.

BASH: Yes.

COLLINS: Dana Bash, as always, thank you. And we'll see you, tomorrow, on "INSIDE POLITICS" --

BASH: Great to see you.

COLLINS: -- at noon, Eastern.

We're going to go back to our breaking news, next that we begin the hour with. Israeli forces, right now, are conducting a raid, on the largest hospital complex, in Gaza.

This is happening the same day that thousands of people marched, for Israel, in Washington, D.C., in support of Israel, including many of the relatives of hostages, who have been kidnapped by Hamas. A family member from one of those will join me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:42:58]

COLLINS: We're continuing to monitor the breaking news, happening right now, at the Al-Shifa Hospital, in Gaza, where Israeli troops say they are carrying out, what they describe, as a precise and targeted operation against Hamas.

Thousands of civilians are known to be inside that hospital or sheltering around it. The IDF has claimed that Hamas has a command center underneath it, a claim that I should note Hamas and hospital officials have denied, but one that has been backed up, by the U.S. government, as recently as today.

This operation, in Gaza, comes just hours after a massive display of solidarity, with Israel, that we saw play out, in the streets of Washington. Tens of thousands of people converged on the National Mall, trying to show force, against anti-Semitism, while also demanding the release of the hostages, still being held by Hamas, in Gaza.

My next guest was at that March for Israel, for her aunt and her uncle, who are believed to be among the 239 hostages. Ofri Haggai, joins me now. Ofri, thank you so much, for being here, after this day.

I wonder what it meant to you, to see those thousands of people, rallying in Washington, today, demanding the release of people, like your aunt and your uncle.

OFRI HAGGAI, AUNT AND UNCLE KIDNAPPED BY HAMAS: First of all, I want to thank you for providing me the platform, to be able to come here, and to share the story of my family.

I attended today the rally. I was very excited, to see all those people, come from all over the State, to support us, to be with us, to share the words that everything needs to be done, to bring our all loved ones, back home, as soon as possible.

I'm very happy I came from Israel. I lived in Israel. And I came especially, to the United States, for this reason, to raise the awareness, to raise the support, to bring all our hostage, back home, as soon as possible.

COLLINS: And I know you've been meeting with lawmakers, while you've been here, in the United States. I mean, how hopeful are you, tonight, when you hear messages, from President Biden, about the hostages, like the one that he had today, about the release of your aunt and your uncle happening?

[21:45:00]

HAGGAI: I'm very hopeful, because this is the best things I can do, at the moment, to be hopeful, to hope for the best.

I just want to share a bit about my uncle and aunt, if I may? My uncle and aunt both are American citizens, Gadi and Judih Haggai. They live in Kibbutz, Nir Oz. Both retired on their 70s.

As every morning, they went on their daily walk. In this horrible Saturday, October 7th, they went on their daily walk, to the field of the kibbutz.

Around 6, they left the kibbutz. Around 6:30, the massive attack of rockets started from Gaza. My aunt filmed, in her phone, the rockets above them, and she shared it in our WhatsApp group, saying that they're both of them facing down on the ground.

A few minutes, after around 7, apparently, they were ambushed, by terrorists, on a motorcycle. They've been shot. They've been badly wounded.

My aunt, Judih managed to call the paramedic, of the kibbutz, of kibbutz Nir Oz. She asked for help. I heard that never came. And ever since then, we don't know what happened to them. We don't know where they are. They were gone. This phone call was the last that anyone talked with her.

A few hours after the call for help, their phone were located in Gaza. So, IDF identified them, as held hostage in Gaza. COLLINS: OK.

HAGGAI: Both of them, loving life, love -- they have four kids, seven grandkids. They're very healthy. They're not -- don't take any medicine. They eat very healthy food. They exercise. They just, like each one of us, love life, and wants to enjoy as much as they can. Couple, elderly, went on their daily walk and never come back.

And that's why I came here. Not only to attend the rallies, but also to meet with people, to raise the awareness --

COLLINS: Yes.

HAGGAI: -- to make sure none of our hostage are being forgotten. And to make sure everything is done to bring them home. And since both of them are American, we are -- I'm here, on behalf of my family, and the rest of the hostage, to increase and raise the support, if we can, from the American public.

COLLINS: Well, Ofri, you are doing just that tonight.

HAGGAI: Thank you.

COLLINS: And I can't even imagine what these last several weeks had been like, and just the hell.

And thank you, for coming on, to share about them. We'll be thinking of you and, of course, of your aunt and uncle. And we'll stay in touch with you. Thank you, Ofri Haggai.

HAGGAI: Thank you so much. I very much appreciate it. Thank you.

COLLINS: Thank you.

We'll continue to monitor that situation, with the hostages, as we are hearing from the White House on that. Also, what is happening, tonight, on the ground, in Gaza, as we're trying to learn more.

We also have news, here at home, on the timing of Donald Trump's upcoming election, in -- his election trial, in Georgia. Whether a verdict could happen even before the 2024 election? The prosecutor seemed to indicate after, potentially. We'll tell you her full comments, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:52:16]

COLLINS: The District Attorney, in Georgia, offering a new timeline, today, in that case, against Donald Trump, and 14 of his allies, accused of carrying out a criminal enterprise, to overturn, at least to try to, the 2020 presidential election results.

Fani Willis believes that that trial now could stretch into early 2025.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I believe the trial will take many months. And I don't expect that we will conclude until the winter or the very early part of 2025.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That could mean by the time that there is a verdict, Donald Trump could potentially be the President-elect, or back in the White House.

I'm joined now by, what that could mean, and what that could look like, by former U.S. Attorney, for the Middle District of Georgia, Michael Moore.

I mean, I know this is a lot of hypotheticals. I understand that, Michael. But if that does happen, and Trump is reelected, which we don't know that he will be? This is a State case. So what happens?

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, I'm glad to be with you.

It is hypothetical in the sense that, we're all guessing in who's going to have which trial first, whether it's going to be the federal case, or we're going to get to the State case.

But if he were reelected, and if the case were going on, my guess is that the trial would probably be immediately stopped. Because there's a general rule that a President needs to be able to focus on those things that he needs to do as President. And that, in fact, he can't be bothered with State court actions, during the time that he's the President of the United States.

And you've seen that from time to time. You remember some cases that were put on hold, really while he was President of the United States. And so, I think that's probably what would happen.

I really think it's an optimistic view, to think that we would even be getting to the trial, by election time, in this case. And I think it's more likely that we won't even start before the election.

COLLINS: So, who makes that decision? Is that -- if that is what happens, while we're in hypothetical land here, is that a Fani Willis decision? Is that a Justice Department decision? Is that a -- I mean, who makes that call?

MOORE: Well, it's going to be -- it's going to be sort of a gaggle of judges, who are making their own trial calendars. You've got the case, down in Florida that's been scheduled now, for about the middle of next year. And that is going to block out a lot of time, for the counter.

Then the State court judge. And typically, federal cases take priority over State cases. So, the State case would be in limbo a little bit, as they're waiting on when that federal trial will go.

But it's -- you've also got all of these defendants, in this RICO case, in Georgia. And I think it's still unlikely that the judge tries all of these people together.

[21:55:00]

So, I think, you're going to see sort of two waves. And it'll depend on which one he decides to put first. If Trump's in the first wave or a second wave or potentially even a third wave, as they go forward. So, the judge sets the calendar, and is in charge of the courtroom.

But again, we're going to have issues with appeals courts. We're going to have matters that are taken up. And that's going to delay the case as well.

COLLINS: Michael Moore, a lot to look forward to. Thankfully, we have you, to help us, at least assess some of it. Thank you so much, for your time, tonight.

MOORE: Always a pleasure.

COLLINS: Tonight, another update, as well, on the man, who was accused of attacking Nancy Pelosi's husband, Paul Pelosi, today breaking down, on the stand. Emotional testimony that was laced with conspiracies, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: In a California courtroom, today, tearful conspiracy-laced testimony, from the man, who brutally attacked Nancy Pelosi's 83-year- old husband, Paul Pelosi.

David DePape, spending over an hour, on the stand, today, as you could see here, from these court sketches. It's the first time that jurors have actually heard directly, from the man, who broke into the former Speaker of the House's home, he says, to interrogate her.

[22:00:00]

They were also shown video of the attack. I'm about to show it to you. But I do want to warn you, it's disturbing. You don't even see the most graphic parts here though.

DePape testified that he was surprised when he encountered her husband, Paul Pelosi, instead. He then struck Paul Pelosi, in the head, with a hammer. Police arrived on the scene.

I should note, David DePape, who was in court, today, has pleaded not guilty.

He did say, today, though that he thought he had killed Paul Pelosi, and was disappointed, after his original plan, to abduct Nancy Pelosi, had fallen apart.

Closing arguments, in that case, are expected to wrap up, tomorrow. We'll keep you updated, on that.

I want to thank you, for joining us, tonight.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts, right now.