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ISIS Issues Threat Against the West; Forty Plus Countries Join Anti-ISIS Coalition; 130,000 Syrians Flee Over the Weekend; 2.5 Million Flee Syrian Civil War; Interview with Tony Blair; ISIS and Peace Process

Aired September 22, 2014 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting from the United Nations General Assembly here in New York City. We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world.

We begin with world leaders facing huge amounts of world problems. Presidents and prime ministers are gathering for the 69th annual general assembly. And they're grappling with enormous issues ranging from a new terror threat to a major health crisis to the environment and a whole lot more.

President Obama will call on countries to join the fight against the terror group, ISIS. The president and other world leaders will also discuss the Ebola crisis, strategies to slow the spread of the disease. And the U.S. secretary general, Ban Ki-Moon, will host a special session on climate change. The crisis in Ukraine, the Israeli-Palestinian intentions also likely to be huge topics of discussion in the coming days here at the United Nations.

Our Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth, by the way, says the world wind of meeting sideline conversations often refer to, in his words, as speed dating diplomacy.

And let's begin with our top story right now, the war against ISIS. Several countries are responding to threats from the terror group that were posted online. In the latest video, an ISIS leader calls on supporters to launch attacks specifically in the United States and France. Both countries have launched air strikes against ISIS targets in Iraq.

Joining us now is the former British prime minister, Tony Blair. He's also a special peace envoy on the Middle East. Mr. Prime Minister, thanks very much for joining us.

TONY BLAIR, FORMER PRIME MINISTER, BRITAIN: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Do you remember a time when the world has seen -- I mean, World War II, obviously, but enormous crises, so many of these crises unfolding right now?

BLAIR: It's a very tough time to be a leader. And I think the crisis, in relation to this terrorist threat, is particularly grave and serious and it has been building up over a long period of time. But the president of the United States is absolutely right to assemble the broadest possible alliance of nations to go out and defeat it.

BLITZER: Are you with him on his strategy?

BLAIR: Absolutely. I think the right thing to do is to build a broad alliance. He's got the opportunity, in a way, that post 911, we didn't always have to be able to make sure that he gets significant Arab support in the region to take on ISIS. But, you know, it's a long, hard struggle and this is not just about ISIS. You've got many other terrorist groups not just in the Middle East but also in North Africa. You've got huge problems in Libya. You've got Boko Haram in Nigeria. You've Al Shabaab in Somalia and other countries. And even in Asia you've got major problems. So, I think the most important thing is, of course, to deal with ISIS. But then, to take a step back and realize this is a global problem that requires a global strategy.

BLITZER: Can you do it without significant ground forces?

BLAIR: You can hem these people in and contain them by air power. But if you want to defeat them, there will have to be someone's boots on the ground.

BLITZER: Whose boots -- because the U.S. has basically ruled it out. I assume Britain has ruled it out. What about France? They're -- and none of the neighboring Arab or Muslim countries seem anxious to get involved militarily on the ground.

BLAIR: Well, with respect to ISIS in Iraq, there will be, obviously, Iraqis, Kurds, others.

BLITZER: But you can't really count on the Iraqi military, can you?

BLAIR: Well, you're going to have to -- this will be an evolving strategy, let's put it like that.

BLITZER: Because they crumbled in the face of this ISIS threat and it's -- for them to rebuild and get the job done is going to take an enormous amount --

BLAIR: Sure.

BLITZER: -- of time and the political will which a lot of experts on Iraq are not necessarily convinced the Sunnis there will have, the Shiites and the Sunnis have been battling each other for hundreds of years, as you know.

BLAIR: So, there's a whole series (ph) of putting your problems, and as you rightly say, I mean, you're going to need that capability on the ground. Now, America is already getting a huge amount of support there, by the way.

But I think this strategy will evolve over time. And, personally, I think the lessons of the past, and, you know, we've been fighting these terror groups now for a long period of time, is you have to have the force capability to go and defeat them on the ground. BLITZER: On the ground. And the Iraqis, that's a work in progress,

shall we say, even if this new government in Baghdad steps up and it -- and we're not 100 percent convinced that they will. Even if they do, they need training. They need to be motivated. The Sunni tribes, they need to get involved, their militias. The Peshmerga, they're fierce fighters but they don't have the equipment to fight these ISIS groups. We're talking about Iraq. We're not even talking about Syria.

BLAIR: Sure. Now, of course, the air power will make a huge difference because you'll be -- you'll be targeting the ISIS people in Iraq. But, as you rightly say, this -- they came out of Syria. And, you know, their base and where they really operate out of is in the northern part of Syria.

So, look, as I say, I think this is a strategy that will evolve over time. But I think the important thing is the will on the part of the world. And as the president of the United States has indicated, and the power of America is there to fight it. And, you know, we are -- but we're in for a long -- a long battle. And, you know, you can talk about Iraq and Syria. I would watch Libya very, very carefully (INAUDIBLE.)

BLITZER: Libya has turned out to be a total disaster. Is it fair to say Libya was better off under Gadhafi?

BLAIR: No, I don't think so. And I think there are two really important points to make here. I mean, if you can get evolutionary change, it's better than revolutionary change. It's why I argued after my experience in Iraq, if you could have got agreement to remove Gadhafi or a sovereignty (ph) by agreement, it would have been better to do it. But the important thing, after the Arab spring, is to realize the people aren't going to take these dictatorships.

So, the issue is not actually, do you keep the status quo or not? They're not going to keep the status quo. The question really is, and this is the fundamental battle in the Middle East, it's between modernity (ph) on the one side and this reactionary Islamist philosophy on the other. The good news for us is that there are modern minded and moderate sensible Muslims in the Middle East who want the right things for their country. We've got to get on site with them and support them. And, by the way, in this regard, it's important we support President Sissi in Egypt.

BLITZER: And he's going to be here, I think, this week at the United Nations, the new president of Egypt. Just clarify what the U.K. is willing to do in this war against ISIS and Syria and in Iraq. I know you're not part of the government. I know you don't speak for the prime minister. But you follow it very, very closely. Here are a few specific questions. You can tell me if you know the answers. Is Britain, like the United States and France, willing to launch air strikes against ISIS targets in Iraq?

BLAIR: Well, that -- I mean, I hope we will.

BLITZER: But they haven't agreed to that yet? BLAIR: You know, that's a matter for the U.K. government to consider.

BLITZER: What about Syria?

BLAIR: Look, as I said to you, I don't think you're going to defeat this unless you're defeating it in Syria as well as Iraq.

BLITZER: Right.

BLAIR: But -- you know, that -- look, this is the U.K. government to decide. I actually think what the British prime minister has said and has been perfectly strong on this. And, look, it's difficult for your opinion and my opinion. But, you know, in the end, if this ISIS group -- you know, it has -- it has grown in this way over the past 18 months, two years. There is no alternative but for going out and taking them on and defeating. So, look, I cannot speak to the government but I hope and believe that we will stand with America and with France on this.

BLITZER: In terms of at least air strikes. Forget about ground troops right now but at least --

BLAIR: Right.

BLITZER: -- air strikes. No final decision yet, I'm told by the British government, Prime Minister David Cameron.

BLAIR: I think, in the end, look, it's also a question of realizing the single biggest security problem we have in the U.K. today are returning Jihadist fighters from Syria, same with France, same with Germany. So, we're not -- we're not doing this simply for someone else's interests.

BLITZER: Right.

BLAIR: We're doing it for our own interest as well.

BLITZER: And the prime minister did announce they were going on the highest state of alert fearful of those kinds of terrorist. I want you to hold your thought for the moment. I want to continue this conversation. I want to take a quick break. Please stay with us, Mr. Prime Minister.

Coming up, we're also going to talk about the growing humanitarian crisis, the prospects that Russia may pitch in to help the anti-ISIS coalition. Is that true?

Also ahead, two security incidents over at the White House in 24 hours, raising serious questions about whether the secret service was caught napping. A former agent joins us with his expertise. Stay with us.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KING ABDULLAH II, JORDAN: They are in dire straits so -- and that's why, today, we have 1.4 million Syrian refugees in our country, 20 percent or slightly more of our population.

SCOTT PELLEY, CORRESPONDENT, "60 MINUTES": 20 percent of the population --

ABDULLAH: Yes.

PELLEY: -- are refugees from outside the country?

ABDULLAH: An equivalent of probably 60 million refugees in your country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Jordan's King Abdullah talking about the surge of Syrian refugees, fleeing ISIS and other terrorist groups who have come into Jordan today. Turkey closed its border following another mass exodus from Syria. More than 130 Syrian Kurds have crossed into Turkey, get this, over the past three days alone.

Let's bring back the former British prime minister, Tony Blair. Prime Minister, this is -- I mean, Jordan is really swamped. Turnkey is swamped. These refugees, they are escaping for their lives right now from what's going on in Syria and in Iraq. I don't know if the international community is really doing enough to help.

BLAIR: Well, I think it's mobilizing but the problem is it's still being created by the instability that there is there. And, you know, you've got the problem in Syria and Iraq and then, as I was saying earlier, you've got problems in other parts of the Middle East and North Africa. You've got -- look, even in Pakistan, today. And the battle the Pakistani army is fighting in Waziristan, you've got probably a million people displaced over the past --

BLITZER: A million people.

BLAIR: A million people displaced. So, you know, my point about this issue is, you know, we can debate, obviously, what we do about ISIS in the short term and that is vital. But then, we're going to have to decide what we do about Syria. But there's also this far bigger global question which is this Islamist extremism. How we deal with it. How we root it out. How we defeat it, not just by combatting it but also by -- in my judgment, we've got to go to the education systems around the world where young people are being educated to, I'm afraid, a warped view of the world. And this is going on with millions of young kids right around the world as we speak.

BLITZER: Yes, I just read a very long article that you wrote dealing with this crisis. What's the single most important thing the world needs to do to right now to deal with this threat?

BLAIR: To treat education as a security issue and say it should be a basic principle for all countries that they educate their young people to religious tolerance, to respect the difference and against religious prejudice. Because whether it's in the Middle East or the far east or central Asia or Africa, if you've got millions of young people being educated in these Madrasis (ph) where they are being taught from early in the morning until, you know, late afternoon, one particular view of religion that is hostile to other people, it's a disaster.

BLITZER: A lot of these -- there's hundreds who have gone from the U.K. over to Syria, over to Iraq to become terrorists to work with ISIS and these other terrorists. They were educated in the U.K.

BLAIR: Right. And educated, I'm afraid, some of those people would also have been educated outside this formal school system in informal settings where they are educated in a -- to a prejudice way of thinking.

Now, just let me make one thing clear. The vast majority of Muslims in the U.K. would absolutely detest ISIS and everything they stand for. And, by the way, also, there are large numbers of people in the Arab world today and in the Middle East region who are prepared to stand up and to take the fight back to these people. So, you know, you're -- we're not without allies and we're not without hope. But we do have to have a comprehensive strategy. The deal is not just the symptom which are these terrorist groups, not just ISIS but many others like them, Boko Haram, for example, in Nigeria -- and we have to deal with the root causes.

BLITZER: What - are the countries who are most directly affected, the neighboring countries, doing enough right now? Let's go through point by point. Saudi Arabia. I know they're training Syrian -- moderate Syrian rebel forces. They've made a commitment to bring them into Saudi Arabia and train them. That's going to go on for months and months and months. What else should Saudi Arabia be doing right now?

BLAIR: Well, I think the Saudi leadership, and King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia is himself an open-minded man who supported interfaith work around the world, who actually, I think, has been trying to bring his own country on a process (ph) of change. It's really important that that happens because Saudi Arabia is, you know, it's the heart of Islam. He's the keeper of the two holy mosques. It's of vital importance that Saudi evolves as it is doing but we need to make sure that it - that it does.

BLITZER: They have an impressive air force, the Saudi Arabians. They're not willing to use that to fight ISIS, are they?

BLAIR: Well, I think, as I was saying earlier about western policy, I think, you know, there are things that are going to happen in the future that maybe at the moment people think, well, I'm not sure we can do this. But, you know, at some point we're faced with a very simple choice with these people. And, look, I - you know, I was prime minister when we went through Afghanistan and Iraq. The reason it's tough is that when you're fighting these fanatical groups, you know, they're prepared to kill without mercy and die without regret. That makes them hard to beat. But they can be beaten and they have to be.

BLITZER: Is Turkey a disappointment? BLAIR: No, I don't think it's a question of Turkey being a

disappointment.

BLITZER: Because so far they haven't even agreed to allow U.S. planes based in Turkey -

BLAIR: Right.

BLITZER: NATO - Turkey's a NATO ally, to launch air strikes against ISIS targets from Turkey.

BLAIR: Sure. And, by the way, Turkey, as you've just been seeing in terms of refugees, I mean they've got a huge problem. They've obviously got a lot of tension on their own borders as a result of all of this that's happened. So, look, again, I think and hope that they will come in and be part of this.

BLITZER: Now that their diplomats have been freed, the ones who were being held by ISIS, do you think they might reassess?

BLAIR: I mean, I hope so. And I think that, you know, the coalition is being built, the alliance that's being built here is, you know, it's reasonably impressive. It's got about 50 countries in it. And as I say, I think what you'll find is, over time, also as General Allen gets to see exactly how --

BLITZER: He's the U.S. - the retired U.S. general, John Allen -

BLAIR: Right.

BLITZER: Former NATO commander in Afghanistan, but he also served in Iraq. He knows the region.

BLAIR: Right. He knows the region and he knows this -- how you deal with this type of terrorism. And so I think as he also analyzes the situation and sees how best to deal with it, I think you will find, as I say, policy both in the west and in the east evolving.

BLITZER: And General Allen worked with you in the West Bank. He did a very good job there by all accounts with the Palestinians.

BLAIR: He's a good man. Top man, yes.

BLITZER: OK. All right. Well, we've got one more segment. I want to continue this conversation. Prime Minister, you don't have to run yet, do you?

BLAIR: I don't.

BLITZER: Stay with me. We're going to continue our conversation with the former prime minister of Britain.

Also, three Afghan army officers training in the United States, get this, they are now listed as AWOL. They were last seen at a Cape Cod mall. Multiple agencies are now looking into their disappearance. We'll update you on what's going on. And the U.S. Secret Service is on edge after two incidents within 24

hours at the White House raising serious questions about whether the Secret Service is doing its job.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEON PANETTA, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: I really thought that it was important for us to maintain a presence in Iraq. The decision was that we ought to at least try to maintain 8,000 to 10,000 U.S. troops there, plus keeping some of our intelligence personnel in place, to be able to continue the momentum.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Leon Panetta, the former defense secretary of the United States, on "60 Minutes."

Tony Blair is still with us, the former British prime minister. He wanted 8,000 or 10,000 U.S. troops to stay in Iraq after 2011. All the troops were pulled out. The president says Nuri al Maliki was to blame because he wouldn't give immunity status of forces agreement. John McCain says the U.S. really didn't try. The president didn't try very hard. What do you say?

BLAIR: Well, I wasn't part of that discussion. And, you know, you can go back over the past and debate the decisions, right or wrong. The question is, what we do now, frankly, and that's the best thing to concentrate on.

BLITZER: So there's about 1,600, maybe 1,700 U.S. troops in Iraq right now. Realistically, what do you think the U.S. might need?

BLAIR: I don't know in terms of numbers and, you know, that's for the experts to decide. But what's obviously important is that the Iraqi army are given the support that they require. And then, you know, for the actual actions that are going to be taken against the terrorist groups, that will require a whole different set of disposition (ph).

BLITZER: Do you think Haider al-Abadi, the new prime minister, is going to be better than Nuri al Maliki?

BLAIR: I think he started out trying to do the right thing, which is - which is to create a sufficiently broad political coalition that he keeps the country together, because the point is all over the region. If you could only get stability, and you could get some decent governance, these are wealthy countries. I mean Iraq potentially is a wealthy, wealthy country.

BLITZER: They export a lot of oil.

BLAIR: They export a lot of oil. They've got, you know, it's an ancient civilization and history. They've got a huge amount of -- potential as a country, not just in oil but in everything.

BLITZER: Tourism would be huge if they could just get some peace. And much of the Middle East.

Now speaking of the Middle East, one of the other jobs you have is special Middle East enjoy, trying to achieve Israeli/Palestinian peace. Is anything at all -- anything happening at all on that front? Because the cease-fire seems to be holding between Israel and Hamas in Gaza, but that's very tenuous.

BLAIR: Yes, the cease-fire is holding, but we need to get back - well, we need to do two things, actually. We need to open up Gaza but do so in a way that also protects and deals with Israel's security problem. And then we need to get back to a proper negotiation, around the two- state solution. And if you don't have that political process, and there is no alternative to it, then it's hard to make progress in the peace deal as a whole. And the Israeli/Palestinian issue remains fundamentally important. I know there are all these other things going on in the Middle East right now. It still remains of fundamental importance.

BLITZER: Every -- is the two-state solution still viable?

BLAIR: Of course. In fact, it's the only viable solution. The other solution is a bi-national (ph) state in which people are going to be fighting each other all the time.

BLITZER: Yes. I hope you can do it. And I know the secretary of state, John Kerry, he worked hard but he seems -- he's got so many other things going on right now -- basically have given up, at least for the time being.

BLAIR: No, he's absolutely -

BLITZER: He's still involved?

BLAIR: I'm speaking to him a lot and on this very issue and he remains completely committed. He's actually done a fantastic job in putting real political capital into it. And, look, all over the region there is this - I think one of the things we're going to have to get used to in the west is understanding that this is the long, drawn-out problem. And the Israeli-Palestinian issue, by the way, fits into one part of this. But the issues in the Middle East and broader are going to take a generation to see through.

BLITZER: I don't know if you saw former president, Bill Clinton's, interview with Fareed Zakaria yesterday on CNN. At the end of the interview he does reveal that Chelsea Clinton - he's expecting her to deliver by October 1st. That's in the coming days. I know you want to wish him and the whole Clinton family only the best.

BLAIR: I do. I do. That's a -

BLITZER: He's a good friend of yours, right?

BLAIR: He's a very good friend of mine, as is Hillary. And we know Chelsea, too. And, you know, it's going to be -- it's going to be a great event, Clinton as the grandfather and grandmother.

BLITZER: Yes, and Hillary Clinton as the grandmother.

BLAIR: Right.

BLITZER: And we wish Chelsea and Mark, her husband, only the best. Good luck.

BLAIR: I know. And I'm going to have to stimulate my kids to - to start -- to start emulating that.

BLITZER: You're going to have to put some pressure on them.

BLAIR: Yes.

BLITZER: Mr. Prime Minister, good luck.

BLAIR: OK. Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Good luck with all of these issues. Let's hope that peace process can get back on track.

BLAIR: Thank you very much.

BLITZER: Appreciate it very much. Tony Blair, the former prime minister of Britain.

You're happy about the Scottish vote, right?

BLAIR: I'm delighted.

BLITZER: Yes.

BLAIR: And relieved.

BLITZER: Were you ever worried that Scotland -

BLAIR: Yes.

BLITZER: You were?

BLAIR: I was worried but I'm absolutely delighted and relieved. It's the right decision for all of the United Kingdom.

BLITZER: Good work. Thank you.

Three Afghan army officers, get this, training in the United States are now listed as AWOL. The latest on the search for them. That's coming up.

And the U.S. Secret Service on edge after two incidents at the White House, raising serious questions about the president's security detail.

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