Return to Transcripts main page

Wolf

Secret Service Grilled on Security Lapses; Interview with Rep. Mark Meadows; What Will Secret Service Do About Security Lapses; ISIS Forces Closing In on Kurdish Town; Kurds in Syria Fear Massacre; Hong Kong Protesters

Aired September 30, 2014 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 in London, 8:00 p.m. in Jerusalem, 9:00 p.m. in Moscow. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We begin right here in Washington with very tough questions for the agency in charge of protecting the president of the United States, the first family and the White House. The director of the Secret Service went before a Congressional committee today where she was grilled about security lapses. Today's hearing follows disturbing details about the most recent security breach. The man who jumped the White House fence made it farther in inside than the Secret Service originally revealed. Omar Gonzalez who was armed with a knife was able to actually not only get across the White House lawn into the main building, but he got all the way into the east room of the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE: You hate to even imagine what could have happened if Gonzalez had been carrying a gun instead of a knife when he burst inside the White House. That possibility is extremely unsettling.

REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CHAIRMAN, OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE: Omar Gonzalez breached at least five rings of security on September 19th. The White House is supposed to be one of America's most secure facilities and, in fact, one of the world's most secure facilities. So, how on earth did it happen?

REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE: Don't let somebody get close to the president. Don't let somebody get close to his family. Don't let them get in the White House, ever, and if they have to take action that's lethal, I will have their back. In this day and age of ISIL and terrorists and IEDs and dirty bombs, we don't know what's going on underneath that person's clothing. If they want to penetrate that, they need to know that they are going to perhaps be killed. That's the message we should be sending every single time.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: The Secret Service director Julia Pierson told lawmakers, the buck stops with her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIA PIERSON, DIRECTOR, U.S. SECRET SERVICE: It's clear that our security plan was not properly executed. This is unacceptable and I take full responsibility and I will make sure that it does not happen again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, let's bring in our Senior Washington Correspondent Joe Johns. Joe, a lot of difficult questions facing the U.S. Secret Service. This is all shocking, shocking information. You just heard the Secret Service director saying she takes responsibility. Well, what was the -- give us the gist of what other members were saying and what her defense, if any, was.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I think if you take the totality of all this, what she's saying is she's still got an investigation to run. She knows that mistakes were made during this incident, and she's going to get to the bottom of it.

But members of Congress were asking a lot of global questions, Wolf. They were asking questions, well, if you can't deal with one guy who has mental problems jumping the fence and making his way into the White House, what would you possibly do if a whole group of people in an organized terrorism group or whatever actually jumped the fence in mass and made their way toward the White House? What would you do in that type of situation? I think Julia Pierson's defense pretty clearly is, White House protocols on security definitely were not obeyed in this situation. She wants to get to the bottom of it.

Beyond that, she's having to duck and dodge a lot of different questions, because it's clear she doesn't know what this investigation is going to turn up -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And, as you know, the White House fence jumper is not the only incident raising very, very serious concerns. The Secret Service director was also pressed about an incident back in 2011 when shots were actually fired at the White House, and it was only a White House keeper days later who discovered the damage. Listen to this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. TREY GOWDY (R), OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE: Is that true? Did a housekeeper find evidence of the shooting and your agents did not?

PIERSON: The housekeeper was able to locate fragments of glass on the Truman balcony which is not an area that is frequented by security personnel --

GOWDY: I didn't ask you about who was frequent. I asked you, there was a spontaneous conclusion that shots were fired. There were officers who believed they smelled gun powder. There were -- your officers drew their weapons, director. That's how seriously they took it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: The director says they did sweep the area, Joe, they found no immediate signs of damage. But these raise enormously powerful questions and the great fear is that terrorists who are watching what's going on will be inspired, if you will, to take action against the president and the White House.

JOHNS: Absolutely. This is one of those situations, again, where mistakes were apparently made. They only caught the guy who did this almost by accident, as a "Washington Post" article recently detailed.

But in the defense of the Secret Service, they say it took so long to discover the damage on this window, because these are ballistic windows. The shot apparently was not visible from the outside on the Truman balcony. But you had to go on the inside to see a dimple in the ballistic glass. So, still, though, a lot of questions also about censors on the windows of the White House and shot detection censors outside of the White House. Why were all these either not in place or not working properly -- Wolf.

BLITZER: That's all very, very shocking stuff. Thanks very much.

By the way, coming up later this hour, an intruder rushes into the White House, makes it all the way to the East Room. Brian Todd is going to talk us through that breach that has lawmakers demanding answers right now.

But let's get some perspective, right now, from one of the lawmakers who was inside the hearing on these Secret Service problems. Republican Congressman Mark Meadows of North Carolina is a member of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. He's joining us now live from Capitol Hill. So, Congressman, what was your biggest concern heading into the hearing? Was it addressed to your satisfaction?

REP. MARK MEADOWS, (R-NC), OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE: Well, I think our biggest concern, all Americans' concern is, how could this happen? The most elite security force in the world and yet how can a man get to the east room of the White House really going beyond five rings of security? We just don't understand it. And, really, the rest of the story is that it really is more about a culture that is within the Secret Service, in terms of their leadership. That came out today, and it's still a question that remains. How are we going to address that? How do we make sure that they have the tools necessary to protect our president?

BLITZER: So, you were not satisfied with what the director, Julia Pierson, had to say today, were you?

MEADOWS: Well, I wasn't satisfied because we continued to ask questions, and she was saying that it was a budget concern. It was another type of concern. And yet, when we asked piercing questions, what we found was is that, indeed, it is probable that she made some of the very decisions to reduce staffing that created this potential concern. And so, why were the dogs not released? A lot of still unanswered questions that I think Americans deserve.

BLITZER: So, where do you go from here? What can Congress do to try to fix this problem?

MEADOWS: Well, it is a bipartisan thing. You heard Democrats and Republicans, today, very concerned that what we've got is an agency with a culture that must be turned around. The current director has been there for 17 months and yet we can still see that -- even among some of those that showed up at the hearing today, that they acknowledge that they've got a problem. So, we need to give our Secret Service the tools necessary. Hearings are not enough. We're probably about to go into an executive classified session here in just a few minutes to get additional answers. But both Democrats and Republicans believe that we must resolve it because we can't afford to fail.

BLITZER: You heard the director say, the buck stops with her. Do you want her to resign?

MEADOWS: Well, I heard her say, the buck stops with her, there in the testimony. But if you watch the entire Congressional hearing, most of it was dodging and darting this way and another to avoid responsibility instead of just saying, you know, we made a mistake, it won't ever happen again. These are the three or four things that we've put in place. You know, the front door was unlocked, Wolf. I mean, I don't leave my front door unlocked. How can we leave the front door of the White House unlocked?

BLITZER: All right, so, you're not yet ready to say she should resign but you have serious concerns, is that the bottom line?

MEADOWS: Well, I went into this hearing believing that, you know, just some mistakes were happening. I find it very difficult for this particular director to establish credibility. And with that, I believe that not only myself but others will call for her resignation.

BLITZER: Congressman Meadows, thanks very much for joining us.

MEADOWS: Thank you.

BLITZER: Congressman Elijah Cummings, he's the ranking member of that committee. He's getting ready to join us as well. We'll get his thoughts on what he heard.

Also coming up, ISIS chat rooms luring westerners, young ones. And the recruiters are out there. They're answering questions like, how much ISIS pays its fighters. We have details coming up.

Also, ISIS moving closer and closer to a critical border town in Syria. This is a development that could seriously complete their conquest along the Turkish border. Turkey is a NATO ally. We've got a live look. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNFIRE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: That's the scene near the Syrian border, city of Kobani, not far from NATO ally Turkey. It's been the site of running battles between ISIS fighters and Kurdish troops. The fighting there has forced 10s of thousands of people to flee into neighboring Turkey and the fighting continues. Locals there say they are on the verge, potentially, of a massacre if those is terrorists break through.

Ben Wedeman is joining us now from Erbil in northern Iraq. Ben, what is the significance for ISIS if it captures this critically important part of Syria?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There's a variety of things, Wolf. First of all, this is a city of around 45,000 people. Of course, many of them have fled. But to gain yet another large town like this is important to ISIS.

Also keep in mind, this is an area where there's some of Syria's oil resources. This is a fast agricultural area. It's part of really the breadbasket of Syria.

And then there's the other element which we've learned about is that speaking with refugees here in Erbil yesterday, they're talking about how when ISIS goes into a town, they are like a medieval army that basically sacks and plunders and takes away all the possessions people have left behind and then either distributes them to their own people or sells them, refrigerators, televisions, cars.

So, for ISIS, this will be yet another opportunity to enrich itself and, symbolically, another town to fall to them, despite the fact that you've had these air strikes going on in Iraq since the 8th of August and in Syria now for about eight days. So certainly for ISIS to take this town despite the ongoing air strikes by the U.S. and its coalition partners here in Iraq and the U.S. and Syria, it's hugely significant.

Wolf.

BLITZER: It's -- they're not only gaining ground in Syria, correct me if I'm wrong, Ben, but they're also seemingly gaining ground where you are in Iraq, including actually getting closer and closer to the capital of Iraq, Baghdad. There have been battles only a few miles away, just south of Baghdad, isn't that right?

WEDEMAN: That's correct. What we saw today was an army base about 80 kilometers to the northwest of Baghdad, overrun by ISIS. Now, according to Iraqi commanders we spoke to, there were about 180 soldiers there. Most of them fled their positions. But, of course, what did they leave behind? All their weapons, all their ammunition. So more ammunition and weapons in the hands of ISIS. Now, we understand from sources in Baghdad that what ISIS is doing to

the west of this city is that it's probing what's called the defensive belt around the city. Hit-and-run attacks. Basically trying to find out where the weak points are. So that is an additional concern.

And this is despite these American and coalition air strikes that, as I said, began on the 8th of August, more than a month and a half ago. Nonetheless, ISIS is still able to operate. Now, we understand from commanders here is that they've changed their tactics. No more of these large convoys. Individual cars driving around. They look like civilians. So coalition aircraft are hesitant to hit them.

Wolf.

BLITZER: And what has remained so shocking indeed is that the Iraqi military, these are troops funded, trained, armed by the United States over the past decades, they simply give up and run away and leave all those American -- largely American weapons behind for ISIS to use down the road. It's shocking indeed.

Ben Wedeman, thanks very much. Be careful over there in Erbil.

Meanwhile, Britain jumped into the fight against ISIS today, launching air strikes against targets in northern Iraq. It was just last Friday that the British parliament approved the move. Still, no decision by Britain to go ahead and launch air strikes in Syria.

Coming up, we're going to Hong Kong live. Huge protests are still happening right now. We're going to hear why the demonstrations could get even bigger tomorrow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: In Hong Kong, the protesters are not backing down, but neither is the Chinese government. Despite some rain, there are still tens of thousands of protesters filling the streets around the city's financial district. You can see these pictures. They've gathered for the third night in a row to call for election reform and the resignation of Hong Kong's chief executive. But Beijing says it won't give into those demands. CNN's Kristie Lu Stout is joining us. She's on the streets of Hong Kong right now overlooking all those demonstrators.

Kristie Lu, we've seen all these confrontations the past couple of days with police. What's the latest today?

KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The situation now is rather peaceful, Wolf. Tonight, another night of major pro-democracy protests and demonstrations all over the streets of central here in Hong Kong. I've got to say, it's like a festival atmosphere. You see tents. There are people passing out refreshment and drink, also pro-democracy protesters are wearing black t-shirts, the de facto uniform of the protest movement here. But despite this festive atmosphere, as I put it, the political vision of these individuals are very clear. Number one, they want the chief executive of Hong Kong, Chun-ying Leung, the leader of the territory, to step down. And number two, they want true, universal suffrage. That's one person, one vote and the ability to select their -- who they want to be nominated for that position - there's this car coming buy delivering supplies - for that position in the year 2017.

Now, as for the Chinese government here, what they're saying is these protests are illegal. And in addition to that, they say that Beijing will not budge. Beijing will not compromise. I should also add finally that today it's past midnight, it's 1:00 in the morning, it is National Day here in Hong Kong and across China. This is a day that celebrates the founding of the People's Republic of China. This is a holiday that marks and honors the sovereignty of this nation. And yet, on this day, we're seeing massive pro-democracy demonstrations take place here. So the people in Hong Kong can determine their own political fate.

Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: All right, Kristie Lu, thanks very much. Kristie Lu Stout on the scene for us.

Let's bring in our chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto.

Jim, you spent a lot of time in Hong Kong and in China over the years. You've covered this story in depth. Is this potentially another Tiananmen Square? I mean we're bracing for a much bigger demonstration tomorrow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It's certainly a real challenge to the Chinese government. And one that the Chinese government is very nervous about. They live in fear of popular protests. During the Arab Spring three years ago, China was afraid that that same popular protest would spread to its own streets. It got the name of Jasmine Revolution and they took a lot of steps and have taken a lot of steps since then to prevent exactly that. They imprison dissidents. They control conversations on social media. You have no access to FaceBook and Twitter there. That kind of thing to prevent something exactly like what's happening now in Hong Kong.

Now, Hong Kong has its own sovereignty, its own set of rules and laws, but it is a part of China and there are a lot of mainland Chinese living there. So China is fearful that what they're seeing there could spread to the streets of China. So they're between a rock and a hard place here because they don't want this to grow. It's already a serious challenge to their leadership there. But also, on the other hand, they don't want another Tiananmen. The trouble is, who's going to back down? It doesn't look like either side is going to back down at this point.

BLITZER: No, people are not leaving.

Stand by for a moment. I want to bring in Mike Chinoy. He's joining us from Hong Kong live right now. He's a former senior Asia correspondent for all of us here at CNN. He's now a senior fellow at the U.S.-China Institute.

No one knows this story better than you do, Mike. Give us your perspective. Where is this story heading?

MIKE CHINOY, SENIOR FELLOW, US CHINA INSTITUTE: It's very hard to say, Wolf, at this point. The problem is that there's no obvious compromise in sight. The protesters here are making demands that Beijing abandon the plan for the way in which Hong Kong's chief executive is going to be chosen. Beijing says that's impossible. Hong Kong's current chief executive says that's impossible. So it's very hard to see where there's a way out of this.

And absent a way out of this, then the question becomes, how long can Chinese leaders, Xi Jinping, and the Chinese communist party, tolerate something which on the mainland would have been crushed the moment it started. But now it's grown. There are large parts of Hong Kong that are effectively not under the control of the Hong Kong government or the Hong Kong police. To Beijing this must look very much like one of those color revolution in eastern Europe that the Chinese have been so worried about. So I think the question is, if there isn't a compromise, then what's the end game? And it's very unclear what that might be.

BLITZER: Well, what would the problem be for China, Mike, if they just did what these people in Hong Kong want? They're supposed to be two separate systems. When the British left Hong Kong, it was supposed to be a different system in Hong Kong as opposed to mainland China. What would be wrong - what would be the danger for China if they just said, OK, you want free and fair elections in Hong Kong, go ahead? What would that -- what's the problem for the Chinese government if they were to do so?

CHINOY: I think there are a couple of big problems. First of all, China is uncomfortable with the idea that the people of Hong Kong not only can vote for their chief executive, but can nominate the people who can run for chief executive. And the controversy here is the result of China's decision that a much smaller election committee composed of pro-Beijing loyalists would choose who the candidates would be. And the protesters here say that doesn't amount to a free and fair election. So China's uncomfortable with letting local people make their own decisions about what would run.

Secondly, they've already made the decision that it's not going to be that way. And Xi Jinping is a man who is very clearly establishing himself as a very tough-minded leader since taking over in China. He's presided over a significant tightening of internal controls. He's presided over a much more assertive foreign policy. So for China having taken that step to back off now would look like weakness. And weakness is not something that's in Xi Jinping's repertoire.

BLITZER: I suspect the next 24 hours will be critical, especially with this national holiday and thousands and thousands of people showing up. Let's see what the reaction is of the Chinese authorities.

Mike Chinoy, thanks so much.

Jim Sciutto, thanks to you as well.

It's worth noting that CNN's coverage of the Hong Kong protests are now being blacked out on mainland China. The censorship started last night. It's perhaps a bit surprising that our reporting was allowed to air for as long as it did. Also interesting to note, pro-China coverage does not get blacked out.

Still ahead, you would think it would be one of the most secure locations in the world. So how did one man actually manage to not only get into the White House but all the way into the East Room of the White House? We'll take a closer look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)