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Kurdish Forces Beat Back ISIS Offensive; Peshmerga Fights Man The Front Lines; Coalition Airstrikes Helping Kurdish Forces; ISIS Accused Of Harvesting Organs From Victims; ISIS And The Apocalypse; Jeb Bush Says He Is His Own Man; Kurdish Forces Beat Back ISIS; ISIS Believes Apocalypse

Aired February 18, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 pm here in Washington, 6:00 pm in London, 8:00 pm in Kiev, 9:00 pm in Erbil. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

Up first: Kurdish forces beat back a major assault by ISIS fighters in northern Iraq. It's one of several developments in the war agains ISIS.

Kurdish commanders say their forces were able to hold the line and repel the ISIS assault after hours of what they describe as heavy fighting. They say 40 ISIS militants were killed.

Also, CNN has now learned that the U.S. is maintaining what's being described as a secret kill list of ISIS leaders. At the top, Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi. The list of about two dozen operatives belonging to ISIS is growing. Is ISIS selling organs, at the same time, for murdered civilians to help finance this terrorist onslaught? Iraq's ambassador to the United Nations says, maybe. He's asking the United Nations Security Council to investigate.

And President Obama speaks today at the White House summit on combatting violent extremism. At least 60 countries are taking part in that event.

Meanwhile, heavy fighting in close combat. Kurdish forces attack from multiple directions by ISIS fighters. In the end, the Kurdish troops were able to push ISIS back. The battle unfolded southwest of Erbil, that's the Kurdish capital.

Our Senior International Correspondent Ben Wedeman is in Erbil for us with the very latest. Ben, give us a sense of how intense this battle was. We know that the Kurdish fighters maintained their positions.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They maintained their positions but it was touch and go for a while, Wolf. This fighting began at 9:00 p.m. yesterday and went on for about five and a half hours. And it was very dark, obviously, but it was foggy as well. The Kurdish forces don't have, for instance, much night vision capability. So, it was intense fighting.

We saw on Kurdish television pictures of an Iraq -- a Kurdish position where it appeared that there were empty shell casings more than ankle deep. So, the fighting was intense. And even though there were coalition aircraft in the area, the two forces were so close together they could not afford to hit the ISIS fighters because of the danger of hitting Kurdish forces as well.

Eventually, the Kurdish forces were able to push the ISIS fighters back far enough so the coalition aircraft could go into play. But as I said, it was really touch and go. And that's only 30 miles to the west of Erbil, the Kurdish capital. And this is really, by all estimates, the most intense fighting near Erbil in months.

BLITZER: Yes, let's not forget, from the U.S. perspective, there are hundreds of Americans in Erbil right now, diplomats, civilians and U.S. military personnel, at the same time.

Ben, the offensive, at least according to some military analysts, seem to be aimed at drawing Kurdish fighters away from Mosul, that's the second largest city in Iraq, a city of nearly 2 million people. That city is still controlled by ISIS. But Kurdish fighters, among others, they've been going after some of those ISIS positions in Mosul. Is that -- was that the ISIS strategy to lure Kurdish Peshmerga fighters away from Mosul to get them to try to protect Erbil?

WEDEMAN: Yes, that seems to be the interpretation by Kurdish officials here in Erbil that perhaps this was not an attempt to somehow drive towards Erbil itself. But the Kurdish forces, in recent months, have taken territory around Mosul. And of course, there are plans, eventually, it's not quite clear when, for Kurdish forces along with the Iraqi army, perhaps with support from the coalition, to try to retake Mosul. So, certainly, ISIS would like to lessen, relieve the pressure, so to speak, around Mosul by this sort of diversionary attack. But, fortunately, it doesn't seem to have succeeded this time around.

BLITZER: Yes, but the Peshmerga, the Kurdish fighters, clearly won this round. Thanks very much. Ben Wedeman in Erbil for us.

So, while ISIS makes increasing moves aimed at trying to pierce the Peshmerga lines in northern Iraq, the question turns to what aid the Kurdish fighters are getting from the United States-led coalition.

Joining us here in Washington is Bayan Sami Abdul Rahman. She's the Kurdish regional government's representative to the United States. Bayan, thanks very much for joining us. So, you've only been here for a few weeks. You've just come back from Kurdistan. How intense was this clash that we've just been reporting on?

BAYAN SAMI ABDUL RAHMAN, KURDISTAN REGIONAL REPRESENTATIVE TO THE U.S.: Well, Wolf, thank you for having me on your show. Just before I came here, I spoke to Fuad Hussein who's President Barzani's chief of staff. And he gave me very detailed account of what had happened in the fighting. It was intense as your correspondent said. The fighting did continue for several hours.

What we're finding is that ISIS is pushing on the Kurdish front line constantly. Some weeks ago, they had a lightning attack in several places all at once from Mosul stretching down to Kirkuk. So, what they're trying to do is test and attack our front line. But our Peshmerga, valiantly, I have to say, are holding the line. But the question is, how much longer can we do that with the outdated and small weaponry that we have?

BLITZER: Because we're also told, and you know this better because you've gotten firsthand reports, that these ISIS fighters, they're well-armed. They have sophisticated armor, most of it U.S. They captured it from the Iraqi military. They're going in with tanks, with armored personnel carriers. How good is their weaponry compared to yours?

RAHMAN: Well, we have Kalashnikovs. We have outdated weaponry. There are even images of 1945 old artillery from the Second World War being used by the Peshmerga. And, you know, I can give you an example. Germany supplied 30 Milan rocket launchers. These have been incredibly successful in penetrating heavy armor that ISIS has captured from the Iraqi army supplied by the United States. They have been very successful. But the problem is the front line that was attacked yesterday, Guar Mahmud (ph) front line, only has two of these weapons. And we need much more of that --

BLITZER: I thought the United States was providing the Kurdish forces with sophisticated weaponry. I hear that from U.S. officials. Is that not true?

RAHMAN: We are getting weapons. But we need more and we need it to happen in a much more speedy delivery.

BLITZER: What's the problem? Because some have suggested the problem is the U.S. still maintains it gives the weapons first to the central Shiite-led government in Baghdad and then it's up to the government there to hand it over to the Kurdish fighters. It doesn't go directly from the U.S. to Kurdistan, is that right?

RAHMAN: That is right. It does go to Baghdad and that is the agreement that the United States has with Iraq. We understand that we need to keep Baghdad on board. But the truth is, the Peshmerga are the most effective fighting force against ISIS. They are the real fighting force against ISIS. We are holding the line. We are pushing back on them. They are constantly testing and attacking. The question is, how much longer we can hold that with this outdated weaponry that can't counter these heavy weapons and tanks that they have.

BLITZER: I know that a lot of American members of Congress would like to see the administration supply these weapons directly to the Kurdistan military but they're refusing to do so. Yet, here's the question. How much -- I mean, Mosul is still under the control of ISIS. But how endangered is Erbil right now, the capital of Kurdistan?

RAHMAN: I wouldn't say Erbil is really in direct -- under direct threat. The Peshmerga are controlling the front line. We also have air strikes. We also have shared intelligence with the United States and the coalition partners. And I should take this opportunity to thank the United States and the coalition for doing this. But, ultimately, we need to defeat ISIS completely. You can't do that with one hand tied behind your backs. And this is how we find ourselves in the Peshmerga.

BLITZER: One final question. Are you getting any significant help at all from the regular Iraqi army?

RAHMAN: There is coordination. But, you know, sometimes you wonder what army are you really talking about? What we saw with the fall of Mosul illustrated that the army in Iraq, in some areas, is very strong, in other areas, frankly, it doesn't really exist. So, there is some coordination, cooperation. But, as I said earlier, the most effective fighting force on the ground are the Peshmerga. They need proper support and that means weapons, heavy weaponry and advanced weaponry.

BLITZER: I think that's a fair statement. We -- what we did see in Mosul was the regular Iraqi army abandon their positions, ran away, left all that U.S. military equipment behind for the -- for the ISIS forces to capture and now use in going against your forces not far from Erbil.

Representative -- the Kurdish regional representative for the United States, Bayan Sami Abdul Rahman. Thanks very much for joining us.

RAHMAN: Thank you.

BLITZER: We'll definitely have you back.

We want to turn now to a very disturbing allegation by the Iraqi ambassador to the United Nations who says ISIS militants may be stealing their organs from -- the organs from dead civilians and selling them on the black market to make money for terrorist operations.

Our Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth is joining us now from the United Nations. Tell us more about what the Iraqi ambassador is alleging and the reaction you're getting from United Nations officials, Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, these are disturbing allegations. But there's no proof, so far, that the media here has been shown. There have been reports, over the last few months, that there might be some type of organ harvesting done by a group such as ISIS. But there's never really been any formal clarification or confirmation of that.

The Iraqi ambassador told reporters, off camera, yesterday that the Iraqi authorities have found holes in backs and gaps where kidneys would be in the remaining bodies of murdered civilians inside Iraq. He said that 10 to 12 doctors in Mosul were executed because they refused to harvest organs. The ambassador said that there are middlemen and buyers, especially in Europe, that the organs are then flown out from airports that ISIS now controls. However, this may not be as easy as it sounds since organs need to be transplanted pretty quickly should they indeed be taken out. Now, the ambassador on yesterday's schedule did appear before the Security Council at a regularly scheduled Iraq meeting and described crimes of ISIS and a few words about organ trafficking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED ALHAKIM, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N. (translator): These terrorist groups have desecrated all human values. They have committed the most heinous, criminal terrorist acts against the Iraqi people whether Shia, Sunni, Christian, Turkman, Shabaab or Yazidis. These are, in fact, crimes of genocide committed against humanity that must be held accountable before international justice. Without even mentioning the traffic of human organs --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Now, the U.N. spokesman, I asked a couple of minutes ago, said, no, the U.N. has no proof yet. But should the reports turn out to be true, it could be quite worrisome -- Wolf.

BLITZER: It certainly could be. Richard Roth at the U.N., thank you.

Still ahead, we'll take a closer look at ISIS' focus on the apocalypse. We'll explore the ties, the effects of the group's strategy, the effort that ISIS is making to defeat its enemy.

Also, later on, Jeb Bush, the former Florida governor, declaring, this hour, that while he loves his father and his brother, he is his own man.

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BLITZER: The ground war against ISIS is intensifying. Fighting raged for hours overnight after ISIS fighters launched a major offensive in northern Iraq, but they were beaten back by Kurdish forces. Let's get some more perspective now from our panel. Retired U.S. Colonel James Reese, he's a CNN global affairs analyst, a former Delta force commander, and Peter Bergen is our CNN national security analyst.

Colonel, what's your take on this assault by ISIS, the fact that these Peshmerga Kurdish forces were able, after several hours of intense fighting, to repel them?

COL. JAMES REESE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Wolf, you know, I -- anything that ISIS does, does not surprise me at all. Even if they're trying to push people in and get their people killed, it's just a way to disrupt, to kind of take away from - you know most conventional armies start looking for an order of battle, what do we think is going to happen next? And ISIS really is trying to keep us on our toes, rock us back on our heels when need be. And again, I think it's a chance for them to see what the defensive lines are. They know there's a possible push coming to Mosul. And I would not be surprised if we see this again in the next couple of days.

BLITZER: And the concern, at least from the U.S. perspective, not only Kurdistan falling potentially, I don't think it will, but potentially it could fall, Peter, to ISIS, there are a lot of Americans in Irbil right now, not only military personnel but diplomats, civilians, a lot of Americans, hundreds of them, if not thousands of them are in Irbil right now. It's a major problem. Here's the question, Peter, can these Kurdish fighters, with their old weapons, do the battle against these ISIS forces that have much or sophisticated, largely U.S.-supplied armor that were taken over from the Iraqi military?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, judging by what we've seen of the weapons that they have, I mean CNN has been reporting for several weeks now about the fact that some of the Kurdish Peshmerga are armed with weapons from 1945, and that kind of speaks for itself. Those weapons are no match for a U.S.-made tank or any kind of heavily armored vehicle. And you will recall, Wolf, that the reason that we're in this campaign in the first place was the threat to Irbil that was really the combination of a threat to the Yazidis in Sinjar and then also the threat to American personnel that was the stated purpose for the beginning of the war. So that is a real concern. And ISIS, obviously, wants to draw any attention it can away from the real prize, which is Mosul, which is where it declared the caliphate in the first place. So I think it's kind of reset. We're going to continue to see these probing missions around Irbil because at the end of the day what ISIS cares most about is retaining Mosul.

BLITZER: In Syria, colonel, is it a good idea for the U.S. to give what are described as these moderate Syrian rebels who opposed to the region of Bashar al Assad, opposed, of course, to ISIS, the ability to call in U.S. air strikes? Is that a good idea? In other words, do you trust these rebels to do that?

REESE: Wolf, the biggest issue right now is, like you said, it's the vetting of these rebels. Who are they? What are their intentions? I think it's going to be very difficult for us to figure this out. I will tell you that doing a call for fire is a difficult task. It's not very easy. There is technology that helps people. But we've even seen where a lot of times people have called it in themselves and made collateral damage. The bottom line is, I'm not sure it's a real good idea because we don't know who these people are.

BLITZER: Yes, and they're still vetting them. Haven't even sent any of them off to Qatar or Saudi Arabia or Turkey for training. This vetting process keeps on going and going and going. Colonel Reese, thanks very much. Peter, stay with us. We have much more to discuss.

There are videos, the executions, the tactics, more brutal by the day, but is it all part of a plot to fulfill an Islamic prophecy to bring about the end of the world? Stand by. We'll discuss.

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BLITZER: As ISIS continues to gain ground in the Middle East and North Africa, carrying out acts of depravity against almost anyone it deems a threat, you may find yourself asking why? What drives this group of Islamic radicals and why are they so brutal with total disregard for basic humanity? It all boils down to their brand of religious ideology.

Back with us, our national security analyst, Peter Bergen.

Explain how ISIS is convinced, Peter, it can bring about the end of the world and why that's their goal?

BERGEN: Well, Wolf, they believe that we're in the end times and that there's going to be an apocalyptic battle between the forces of true Islam, which they believe are them, and the forces of the west essentially. In fact, their English language magazine is called "Dabik" (ph), which is a town in Syria where they believe this final battle will happen due to a saying of the Prophet Muhammad, which it - supposedly identified this town.

And that explains why they don't really behave like rational actors. It's not really rational to bring the United States into a war against you and then the coalition of 60 other countries and then Jordan and then Egypt. None of that makes any sense from a strategic point of view. But if you think the world - the end of the world is coming and that you're part of that project, these actions might seem a little bit more explicable.

BLITZER: Tell us why ISIS is also always talking about the caliphate.

BERGEN: Well, you know, in their view, you know, of course, they've anointed Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, their leader, as the caliph, which is really an astonishing claim. It's saying that - that he is really an heir of the Prophet Muhammad and his immediate successors and there hasn't been, you know, a caliphate in any sense since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1924. And they're basically saying that this is - you know, that he is the guy -- not only is he the leader of ISIS, but he's the leader of all Muslims around the world. It's a very large claim and, of course, 99.9 percent of the world's Muslims wouldn't agree with it. But, unfortunately, a small minority do.

BLITZER: Do you believe the leaders of the -- this coalition, the United States and all of the others, including the friendly moderate Arab states, they really understand what is motivating ISIS right now?

BERGEN: I think, you know, we're having this White House conference, as you know, Wolf, going on right now about countering violent extremism. And it's been, you know, the administration is being careful not to talk about Islamist extremism. But I think that's kind of a strange decision because, at the end of the day, you know, these -- this group does subscribe to a corpus of beliefs that can be found with a highly selective reading of the Koran and also of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. And to state otherwise is just to ignore the facts.

BLITZER: So how do you defeat this threat of ISIS? How do you destroy it?

BERGEN: Wolf, I think they're destroying themselves. I mean I think the long-term prognosis -- if you've got basically the entire Arab world against you and the entire western world, you know, you're looking at a two-year, three-year time lime for them to be severely degraded. In the meantime, unfortunately, you know, they're doing relatively well. In Iraq, they've had some reverses. In Syria, they continue to do pretty well. So it's going to be a long-term project. And cutting off their finance, cutting off trying to get the foreign fighter flow to reduce, that's all part of a larger plan that, you know, is under discussion at the White House today amongst many other things that goes beyond the simple military plan.

BLITZER: Peter Bergen, thanks very much.

BERGEN: Thank you.

BLITZER: Still to come, in a matter of hours, President Obama will deliver the keynote remarks at the White House summit to counter violent extremism. Topping the agenda, the barbaric attacks carried out by ISIS and how to stop the militant group. We'll speak about that and more. The visiting secretary general of the Arab League, Nabil Elaraby, he's here in Washington. He's getting ready to head over to the White House for all these meetings. But first we'll find out what he thinks when we come back.

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