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Police Fear Revenge from Gangs in Waco; Bernie Sanders Talks Patriot Act; Hillary Clinton; Heated Debate over Abu Sayyef Death; Arrests in London Jewelry District Robbery Case. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired May 19, 2015 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO POLICE DEPARTMENT: We are asking them to stand down, we are asking them to let us sort through our investigation and we will be honest with them as well as we were honest with you all and will continue to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:30:12] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: What do you think? What's your reaction when you hear that from the police sergeant?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I'll be surprised if there is this big influx of bikers coming into Waco to seek revenge against bikers or the police. If they're going to do something they'll pick and choose their battles. They may assassination or ambush police officers at a later time or place. To come into Waco in force the police will be waiting in force now. You have 170 of them already in jail so they can't get even with each other there. They're in prison. Their bikes have been impounded. The rest of the gang members are going to be reluctant to come to town and end up having to go home on bicycles instead of motorcycle. I don't see it happening this way.

BLITZER: You've studied these outlaw motorcycle gangs as they're called over the years, the Bandidos. Tell us a little bit, it's not just a U.S. problem, it's an international problem.

FUENTES: The Bandidos aren't even number one in the U.S. Obviously, Hells Angels is still number one. The Bandidos have between 2,000 and 2,500 members and 93 U.S. chapters and 13 international chapters. And I was just in Australia last week at a police presentation in Queensland about a huge issue they have with the Bandidos in the gold coast of Queensland --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: In Australia.

FUENTES: In Australia. And a series of laws that have been passed making it illegal to even belong to the Bandidos, for three or more of them to be gathered wearing their biker jackets, their colors and a number of other things, treating them as a serious organized crime group which we have in the country really before 9/11 all of the outlaw motorcycle gang were treated as organized crime groups. From the FBI standpoint, that's tapered off a little bit, not completely, but a little bit since 9/11. And ATF has stood up greater operations against them with undercover operations and big investigations.

BLITZER: Tom Fuentes, good analysis. Thanks very much.

FUENTES: You're welcome.

BLITZER: Still ahead, he's running for president of the United States. What would Bernie Sanders do about Iraq if he were president? He's standing by live. We'll talk with the Vermont Senator. He's challenging Hillary Clinton for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Stay with us.

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[13:35:54] BLITZER: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting from Washington.

Let's talk about the race for the White House. Income inequality a major issue in the 2016 presidential race. Hillary Clinton has made headlines over the revelation that she and her husband, former President Bill Clinton, made about $30 million since last year alone and speaking fees, $5 million for the book that she wrote.

Listen to what she said about that when she spoke to reporters just a little while ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: On your income disclosure that came out on Friday you are in the tip top echelon of earners in this country. How do you expect everyday Americans to relate to you?

HILLARY CLINTON, (D), FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, obviously, Bill and I have been blessed and we're very grateful for the opportunities that we had, but we've never forgotten where we came from and we've never forgotten the kind of country that we want to see for our granddaughter. And that means that we're going to fight to make sure that everybody has the same chances to live up to his or her own God-given potential. So I think that most Americans understand that the deck is stacked for those at the top. And I am running a campaign that is very clearly stating we want to reshuffle that deck. We want to get back to having more opportunities for more people so that they can make more out of their own lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Let's talk about that and more with the Vermont Senator, Democratic presidential candidate, Bernie Sanders.

Senator, thanks very much for coming in.

What's your reaction when you hear her say that about income inequality, a huge issue for you?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I), VERMONT: It's an issue I've been talking about many years and what we need to do is be specific about what we're going to do about it. Today, Wolf, 99 percent of all new income is going to the top 1 percent, top one-tenth of 1 percent.

BLITZER: Do you include her in that one-tenths of 1 percent? Is that what you're saying?

SANDERS: I don't know exactly. They may be. I don't know if they're that high.

BLITZER: Is that a problem that she and her husband made $30 million for the past 16 months or so, speaking and writing a book?

SANDERS: Well, it's a problem, but the more serious problem is what do we do about the grotesque level of income and wealth inequality in America today. We need to create millions of decent-paying jobs and rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. We need to say to the wealthiest people and corporations, you have to start paying your fair share of taxes. You can't stash your money in the Cayman Islands. What you have to do if you really want to grow the middle class is say that everybody in this country, regardless of their income, if they have the ability, they're going to get a college education. And today, I just introduced legislation that would make public colleges and universities tuition-free.

BLITZER: Where is the money going to come from?

SANDERS: A tax on Wall Street speculation, where it should come from.

BLITZER: What does that mean, a tax on Wall Street speculation?

SANDERS: What it means is, right now, you have people who are becoming phenomenally wealthy by speculating in derivatives and every other type of esoteric instrument they can. People are getting very rich on Wall Street. We're going to impose what exists in dozens of countries around the world, a modest tax on the transference of large amounts of stock.

BLITZER: Will that pay for tuition-free education?

SANDERS: This is an effective and progressive way to raise money. The estimate is it could bring in as much as $300 billion a year.

BLITZER: Do you think Republicans will go along with this?

SANDERS: Of course, they're not.

BLITZER: It's not going to go along with it, it won't become the law.

SANDERS: I don't think it's going to be passed tomorrow. What we have to do is the American people will go along with it. The American people think it's absurd that our young people are leaving school deeply in debt and young people can't afford to go to college.

BLITZER: Is Hillary Clinton committed to this cause, as are you?

SANDERS: Wolf, you have to ask Hillary.

BLITZER: What do you think?

SANDERS: I don't work for her. I don't know.

BLITZER: But you know her. You know her position.

SANDERS: Well, I mean, she has to -- I just introduced legislation. I don't know where Hillary Clinton is coming on this. I believe we got to join Germany, Scandinavia, many other countries around the world and say if you have the ability, regardless of your income, you will be able to go to college tuition-free.

BLITZER: So you want to raise taxes.

SANDERS: On the very wealthiest in the country, absolutely.

BLITZER: Let's talk about the war in Iraq. As you remember, in 2007/2008, there was a young freshman Senator named Barack Obama who opposed the war, going to war in Iraq back in 2003, made this an issue because Hillary Clinton, as a United States Senator, voted in favor of that resolution authorizing the war. You opposed that resolution. You spoke out very passionately against that resolution. We went back, took a look at the statements you were making. Is this going to be an issue for you in challenging Hillary Clinton now? Are you going to bring that up again against her?

[13:40:28] SANDERS: I think it's a fair issue. And what the issue is about, not just looking back in hindsight, as you indicated, I very much opposed the war, worried about the destabilization it would bring in the region. Hillary Clinton and everybody else had the same information I had. And I made my decision. She made her decision. It's not different, for example, than what took place about deregulating Wall Street. I opposed the deregulation of Wall Street and pretty much predicted what would happen in terms of the Wall Street crash. Other people did not.

BLITZER: You disagree with her on the Wall Street issue too.

SANDERS: I certainly disagree with her husband on that. She hasn't been clear where she's coming from. My point, you get information and you make the best judgment you can.

BLITZER: On Iraq, what will you say to the voters in Iowa and New Hampshire, I opposed the war, Hillary supported the war? Is that the argument?

SANDERS: You have to go beyond that. That's ancient history. Where are we right now? The answer is, as a result of this war, we destabilized the region, give rise to al Qaeda, ISIS, what we need now -- this is not easy stuff, but I think the president is trying. You need to bring them together in an international coalition, Wolf, led by the Muslim countries themselves. Saudi Arabia has the third- largest military budget in the world. They will have to get their hands dirty in the fight. We should be supportive. At the end of the day, this is a fight over what Islam is about, the soul of Islam. We should support those countries taking on ISIS.

BLITZER: Senator Rand Paul, of Kentucky, running for the Republican nomination, making a major issue trying to block any resumption of the Patriot Act surveillance program by the National Security Agency. I want to play this clip and then we'll discuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Are you going too filibuster this?

SEN. RAND PAUL, (R), KENTUCKY: I will do whatever it takes to stop it. Whether or not I'm allowed to filibuster there's another question. There's a paper filibuster that you can do, demanding there's 60 votes, objecting, not giving them consent to proceed. I will do a formal filibuster. Whether that means I can go to the floor some of that depends on what happened. I will filibuster the Patriot Act and do everything I can to try to adhere to the courts. The courts have said the bulk collection of records is illegal. They should stop immediately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Are you with him on that?

SANDERS: I voted against the USA Patriot Act and the authorization of the USA Patriot Act and am concerned about this issue. Republican --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Sounds like you and Rand Paul, on this one issue, are basically in agreement.

SANDERS: Sometimes you have strange bed fellows.

BLITZER: Where does Hillary Clinton stand as far as you know on the issue?

SANDERS: I don't know. I believe she voted for the USA Patriot Act.

BLITZER: So, potentially, another area where you and Hillary Clinton disagree.

SANDERS: Yes. But here's the issue. The issue is all of us agree you have to be vigorous in fighting terrorism, do everything we can. But I hope the American people understand we don't have to sacrifice all of our liberties and our privacy rights to do that. I do not want to see the Constitution of the United States undermined and I feel very much that's going on. By the way, not just by the government. You have a lot of private-sector stuff which knows everything about your life, you know, where you eat, what books you read, where you go, where you are. That scares me, too. We need a conversation in this country about how we protect privacy rights.

BLITZER: Senator Sanders, thank for coming in. SANDERS: My pleasure.

BLITZER: We'll see you on the campaign trail.

SANDERS: OK.

BLITZER: Still ahead, U.S. officials say a senior ISIS figure was killed over the weekend during a raid in Syria. Why is there a heated debate right now over his importance?

Stay with us.

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[13:47:36] BLITZER: U.S. officials described him as a Tunisian, a key money man for ISIS, but still questions over the importance of the commander known as Abu Sayyaf. He was killed over the weekend during a raid in eastern Syria. This graphic from the Rand Corporation published in "The New York Times" gives you a sense of how ISIS makes money. Most of the terror group's funds come from extortion or taxes. A smaller portion from the sale of oil and kidnapping for ransom operations.

Let's discuss this and more, the impact of Abu Sayyaf's death, what will be the impact on ISIS finances. Joining us, our national security analyst, Juliette Kayyem; and our CNN contributor, the co- author of the book "ISIS, Inside the Army of Terror," Michael Weiss.

Juliette, you wrote an excellent article on CNN.com saying the death of Abu Sayyaf represents, in your words, "a good kill." Tell us why?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, look, I think everyone agrees no single death is going to end is. They are so flat- lined and think about succession plans so we shouldn't say it's done now that we got him. Everyone knows that. An important aspect of how the White House disclosed information or actually, more specifically, the Department of Defense was to make it clear to is that we have intelligence agents or we have people close to them who are disclosing the whereabouts of mid-level leaders or high leaders. I think part of what happened this weekend was that administration wanted to sort of mess with ISIS' head and we call that propaganda, saying we're in there, we are getting intelligence from your own people, and the goal of that is to make them all so paranoid they actually either go after each other or begin to focus on themselves. It's an old cold war intelligence tactic and I think it's part of what happened this weekend.

BLITZER: What's your assessment, Michael?

MICHAEL WEISS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR & AUTHOR: I agree with everything Julie said but a bit of stature inflation for Abu Sayyaf. The idea he was the chief financial officer of ISIS, I wrote a book on these guys, most of the analysts that study ISIS, a lot of people inside ISIS, either hadn't heard of him or heard of him but thought of him as a marginal or mid-level commander. The minister of the minister of finance is called Abu Salah. If he's the minister of finance, how does this guy become the CFO? I think the aspect to focus on, apart from the idea of black population, that's how we have to play it against ISIS because they played against us in a direct fashion.

But the real value, I'm told, and it's been reported by "ABC News" as well as my colleague at "The Daily Beast," this guy played an integral role in the capture of hostages, particularly Kayla Mueller, the last held by ISIS, confirmed killed by ISIS. There's an emotional payback element of this, too. The president authorized this mission. He wanted to capture Abu Sayyaf alive, bring him back to the United States, and probably have him stand trial, sort of a public reckoning with the fact that these guys have gone after American civilians. It's an important step in this coalition effort, raids against the mid-level target that result in the collection and confiscation of silence that lead to higher targets, we did this in Iraq innumerable times. And in Syria, a guy responsible for running jihadis into Iraq from Syria to kill soldiers. I've had credible information that that wasn't the only time a Special Operations force went into Syria before the Syrian revolution kicked off in 2011. The idea is this might inaugurate further raids in Syria and Iraq by U.S. forces for exactly this purpose of discombobulating the ISIS senior command.

[13:51:30] BLITZER: And, Juliette, we know Abu Sayyaf's real name, Fathi ben Awn ben Jildi Murad al-Tunisi. Is that a big deal, now that his identity has been revealed?

KAYYEM: It is just for intelligence purposes and for even sort of more traditional law enforcement purposes. Just simply having the accurate name if it is the accurate name is -- all investigations are you have the bull's eye, concentric rings around the people affiliated him, people that may have known him, people that may have worked with him, to simply just get what we might call intelligence atmospherics about him. That is also particularly true for his wife who is alive. We had the same issue with the bin Laden wives. What do you do the wives? Some are more culpable than others. They're all guilty. What you'll see is intensive interrogation, a return to her native country and probably not hear from her much. We do not want to make her any sort of martyr or victim or kidnapping victim. Just let them go away.

BLITZER: Michael, he identifies himself as al Tunisi, the Tunisian. What does that mean as far as the fact other than he's originally from Tunisia?

WEISS: Tunisian is the one country that the so-called foreign fighters who populates the ranks of ISIS at the mid or lower levels come from, so that doesn't surprise me. But most of the people in the senior command are typically from Iraq. As you pointed out in the prior block, a lot of them have backgrounds in Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime. This guy didn't, obviously.

BLITZER: Michael Weiss, Juliette Kayyem, thank you very much.

Thieves in London pulled off a $300 million heist. Police have made arrests. We'll tell you what has happened.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [13:56:31] BLITZER: A "Washington Post" journalist jailed for nearly 10 months in Iran is final getting his first day in court. Jason Rezaian will appear in the revolution court, as it's called, one week from today, charged with espionage, collaborating with a hostile government, that's another charge, and spreading propaganda again Iran. The State Department here in Washington calls the charges absurd. Rezaian's wife, also out on bail right now, is being called to appear in court next Tuesday to testify.

It's one of the biggest and most daring robberies in years. Thieves in London's jewelry district broke into a vault over Easter weekend and raided 56 safe-deposit boxes. Unofficial estimates put the value at more than $300 million. Now British police have made several arrests in connection with the case.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen is joining us from London right now.

Fred, tell us more about these arrests.

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. It's among the many remarkable things about this big heist that happened. On the one hand, there's the loot, which, as you say, was estimated around $300 million -- jewels, gems, cash, all sorts of things -- the way they did it, and now also the range of suspects that the police has said that they have in custody. We got word a couple of minutes they have now nine people in custody. The interesting thing is the age range of those who were allegedly involved in all of this. The oldest being 76 years old. There's apparently one individual who's 74 years old and one who's 67 years old. The youngest one is apparently 43 years old. Now the police have not come out with any names for the suspects. They simply put letters in front of them and the age. They also say they believe they've recovered some of the loot in this heist. They say some premises were raided by the police and stuff was recovered. They're waiting to see whether or not it was part of the heist that happened here.

Of course, it was something that was bold. If you recall, Easter weekend, this place was broken into in an elevator shaft. The thieves drilled through a wall and got to the safe-deposit boxes and had several days to raid them. They left a lot of power tools behind. Certainly, it seems as though, Wolf, there might be some light into that you will.

The police, for its part, is saying it worked relentlessly to find the people behind this, to find the loot. Many people were affected. It is a remarkable case -- Wolf?

BLITZER: Are they giving any indications how they got a breakthrough in this case? It did receive enormous publicity at the time.

PLEITGEN: It certainly did. They haven't yet said what exactly led them to the people that they believed are the suspects. The information there is limited. Certainly, it was something where when all of this happened, people believed that those behind this must be experts. There were a lot of analysts coming out saying that they believe that perhaps the loot would leave the country as fast as possible. Simply because it is so much and so high profile. This is not just money, it's gems, things that are difficult to hide. At this point, they have not given any indication as to how they managed to find these individuals -- Wolf?

BLITZER: Fascinating story.

Fred Pleitgen, thank very much.

That's it for me. I'll be back at 5:00 p.m. for "The Situation Room."

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is next.

For viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.

[14:00:12] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. Top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.