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Church Shooting Sparks Confederate Flag Controversy; What is Role of Hate Groups. Republican Candidates Respond to Confederate Flag Debate; Emanuel AME Church Filled with Prayers, Hope on Sunday. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired June 22, 2015 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:21] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The shooter in that Charleston church massacre didn't hide his hatred for blacks as well as other ethnic groups as well. Just ahead, the racist online so-called manifesto linked to the shooter and what is being done about hate groups in America. Stand by.
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BLITZER: We're learning the killer was very open about his racist identity before murdering the nine people at the AME Church in South Carolina. He posted a picture of himself posing with guns and Confederate Flags. On a website he registered, he also apparently posted a 2,000-word racist manifesto to the same site that details his philosophy of white superiority. He talks about how the Trayvon Martin case in Florida, quote, "awakened him." Here's part of what he wrote, "Black people are racially aware almost from birth but white people on average don't think about race in our daily lives, and this is our problem. We need to and have to."
[13:05:22] Let's talk about the role of hate groups in America. Joining us is Richard Cohen, the president of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Alabama.
If you read that so-called manifesto, it sounds pretty typical of these white supremacists, these hate groups in America, doesn't it?
RICHARD COHEN, PRESIDENT, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: The shooter might have been a high school dropout but he is a good students of white supremacy. He knows hits all he high notes. He knows the symbols. He knows the lingo
BLITZER: He obviously read up on it and writes about it.
What was intriguing is it describes his hatred of black but then he has a chunk there where he goes after Jews and goes after Hispanics. How unusual is that, if at all?
COHEN: Many hate groups are equal-opportunity haters. His comments about Jewish people and Hispanics are more tempered than one might see in a lot of places. The other thing is significant, if you look at tend of it he says, "I might not be worth any more than a speck of dust but I'm going to do something good for society. I'm going to do something heroic." You see a portrait of a young man who is down and out, has no skills, so what he's done is attach himself to a cause that he sees as larger than himself and is going to do something of historic significance. And that's the kind of trajectory we see with these lone wolves.
BLITZER: As far as the Jews are concerned about one point he says "Jews may look white but the problem is that they -- somehow you have to destroy the Jewish identity in order to resolve that problem. As far as Hispanics are concerned, some of them look white but they are still our enemies. He's pretty blunt there as far as going after Hispanic, Jews. But most of the manifesto deals with black people in the United States. What's the role of the Confederate Flag in all of this?
COHEN: It's a symbol that has been used by hate groups for eons. And you see it primarily in the south but you see in the other places as well. Many people use it as an expression of racial pride. One thing I think that's important to understand is, you know, many white people on average see race relations as a zero-sum game. If black people are up, they're down. So you see this racial resentment simmering. The Confederate Flag, displaying it is often a reflection of that resentment. And I'm delighted to hear that Governor Haley is going to advocate to take the flag down. It's a similar that is incredibly divisive.
BLITZER: We're just learning that Nikki Haley, the governor of South Carolina, is going to call for the removal of that Confederate Flag from the state grounds and state capital in South Carolina.
Richard Cohen, thanks very much for joining us.
COHEN: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Still to come, for some, it is the symbol of hate, for others, the symbol of southern heritage, and for a few GOP presidential candidates, it's an awkward campaign issue. Their response on what to do about the Confederate Flag. We'll discuss when we come back.
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[13:42:34] BLITZER: The massacre in Charleston, South Carolina, has reignited the debate over whether the Confederate Flag should remain on the grounds of the South Carolina state capital. A little while ago, community leaders held a press conference outside the North Charleston city hall to urge lawmakers to put the flag into a relic room. The "Charleston Post and Courier" reporting the South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley will call for the removal of the Confederate Flag from the statehouse grounds and sources also telling CNN that the South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, who's running for the Republican presidential nomination, will also call today for the flag's removal.
The Confederate Flag is a symbol of hatred to some. It's also a symbol of southern heritage to others. What to do about it, apparently, a rather tricky question for at least some Republican presidential candidates. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK SANTORUM, (R), FORMER SENATOR & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the opinion of people here in South Carolina and having them work through this difficulty is much more important than politicizing it.
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: What is your opinion?
MIKE HUCKABEE, (R), FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For those of us running for president, everyone is being baited with this question as if somehow that has anything do with anything whatsoever as running for president. And my position is, it most certainly does not.
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BLITZER: Jeb Bush noting that, while he was the governor of Florida, he moved the flag to a museum.
Let's discuss the political ramifications of all of this with our senior political reporter, Nia-Malika Henderson; and our chief political analyst, Gloria Borger.
Some of these Republican, Gloria, they're treading carefully on this issue.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: They're equivocating on it and it's ridiculous. Actually, I disagree with Mike Huckabee who says it has nothing to do with running for president. Actually taking a firm position on something that is important to an awful lot of people in this country has an awful lot to do with leadership and running for president. I would argue that what these candidates are doing equivocating, waiting if the governor of South Carolina, Nikki Haley, to come out and say this afternoon as we expect there's been a lot of reporting she might say, OK, enough with this flag near the capital, put it somewhere else. But these candidates are afraid of alienating white conservative voters.
BLITZER: Now, Dana Bash, our chief congressional correspondent, reporting Lindsey Graham is getting ready to say, "Remove the flag, move it to a museum" or a relic room or whatever they want to call it. That will put pressure. You have the governor of South Carolina, a Republican, the Senator there, now calling for getting rid of that flag. It's going to put pressure on these Republican candidates who are waffling to take a firm position.
[13:45:17] NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER: It is. And I think the question is does it put pressure on the folks in the state legislature to act and they're looking at 2016 and they're up for reelection, too, and worried about a primary challenge, and if they come out and say they want to take the flag down because they're going to get a lot of calls from grass-roots diehard Republicans who want to see this flag stay up there. So those are the politics that are at play here and I think one of the things that folks are trying to do now, Nikki Haley being one of them, Lindsey Graham as well. They're trying to rush this through and ride the emotion of this to see if they can get to that two-thirds vote if they call a special session, they need two-thirds vote to even call a special section to take it up and then they need a two-thirds of the vote as well to take it down. One of the interesting things in South Carolina, the whole statehouse grounds a monument to southern history, right? The bad old days of southern history, folks like Ben Tillman, he has a statue up there. He was the governor of South Carolina. He advocated for disenfranchising African-Americans. And I talked to these people who are proponents of the flag, one of their fears is, well, if you go after the flag, do you go after Ben Tillman next? Do you go after some of the street names named after John C. Calhoun? Do you go after the big monument that is a monument to the war dead from the Civil War? So those are the raw emotions at play here.
BORGER: I also think that in a way a lot of these candidates are waiting for Haley to give them permission.
BLITZER: Nikki Haley, the governor of South Carolina.
BORGER: The governor, to give them permission to say what they should have said at the outset, which is that the flag has no place flying anywhere other than some kind of a museum relic room, as you put it. In doing so, she will break the logjam. And I bet you'll find a lot of Republican candidates coming out and saying, well, maybe she's right and we shouldn't do it.
I also think there's a business consideration. We look at what happened in the state of Indiana with religious liberty, right? And people threatening to boycott, people threatening not to bring their business to a state that has a Confederate Flag flying on the statehouse grounds. They've taken it down from the dome but it's still there and I wonder that would have been --
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BLITZER: Nia, you've been doing reporting, also. This alleged white supremacist that was cited by the murderer in Charleston, South Carolina, having donated thousands of dollars to a handful of Republicans, most want to return that money or give it away.
HENDERSON: That's right. Nia Love (ph), she got a couple thousand dollars.
BLITZER: The Congresswoman from Utah.
HENDERSON: Utah. She's returning that money. Others have are doing the same thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Rick Santorum.
HENDERSON: Some are donating to the church. So this is the uglier side of southern politics that has its roots, in some ways, in some of this race baiting and it has been for too long wedded to darker strains of the Republican party, something that Colin Powell talked about, so that's what we're seeing now. BLITZER: Guys, we'll continue the fallout, the political analysis on
CNN. Guys, thanks very much.
Coming up, the Emanuel AME Church filled with hymns and hopes during services on Sunday. I'll speak with a local reverend about the community's frame of mind and its path forward. Stay with us.
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[13:52:01] BLITZER: A gunman turned into it into a place of horror, but worshippers transformed it back into a place of hope. Yesterday, Emanuel AME Church held its first services since the murderer shot and killed nine members at Emanuel and churches all across the United States tried to deliver messages appealing to their congregations.
Reverend George McKain is director of the public affairs for the AME Zion Church.
Reverend, thank you for joining us.
What did the people coming to church yesterday hope to hear?
REV. GEORGE MCKAIN, DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS, AME ZION CHURCH: You just said it. The people coming to church all came looking for a message of hope. They wanted to know about survival, they wanted to know about tomorrow, how to make it through today but it was all grounded in looking for a message of hope as well as a word of healing.
BLITZER: Tell us about these relatives. Despite this tremendous loss, losing their loved ones, they quickly said, at that bond hearing on Friday, they were willing to forgive this killer. Tell us about that.
MCKAIN: Well, the Christian experience is built on forgiveness. All of us have done something wrong. Maybe it hasn't been murder. The commandment says "Thou shall not kill." They are Christian witnesses to the effective and Jesus done to us and it was in their hearts. They were clear, it was hurting them but as many of them said, more thoroughly, more than I forgive you, I forgive you and may God have mercy on your soul.
BLITZER: Reverend, take us behind the scenes in your community. What's going on in the aftermath of this horrendous, horrendous massacre?
MCKAIN: In the aftermath of this massacre, I would say not that it was determined to be that way but I think God planned it to be that way, this is a completely different experience. People are praying. I believe some who never prayed before or haven't prayed recently have turning back to that sense of strength and inspiration, their creator, sustainer, their protector. People are bonding together. I've never seen it like this here before where blacks, whites, Christians, Jews, rich, poor, everyone has come together because they believe it has affected every home and as well as those the homeless. It's affected those that have and those that have not. How can we come together and stand together? People want to be more than just rhyme and reason. They want to be -- putting a walk to the talk. They want an answer that is going to be sustaining. They want a difference to be made and they are willing to be made part of that experience. Lord make me different so I can help make the difference.
BLITZER: When members of your congregation, Reverend, come to you and ask you the age-old question, how can God allow these horrible things to happen to good people, what do you say to them?
[13:55:07] MCKAIN: Robert Schuler wrote that book, "What Happens When Bad Things Happen to Good People?" It's all in God's divine plan. We saw things that happened in the Bible that wouldn't go the way we want it to go but why is this child in this situation? Did his parents sin? Did he sin? No. We trust and we believe that out of this, out of this and then after this something glorious will come. Not just for the Holy Spirit or the Emanuel AME Church but for everybody that has experienced this across this nation. We've got prayer vigils going on across the nation. New York, Greensboro, North Carolina, AME, Methodist nominations were just here at the same venue on June approximated 3rd, banding together, trying to make sure that we have a constant and relevant effect and Pastor Pinckney entertained -- hosted that.
BLITZER: Yeah. I remember that. Harold Kushner wrote that book, "When Bad Things Happen to Good People." I remember reading that years ago and my dad having read that book. He pointed out to me, you know what, son, God works in mysterious ways. We don't understand God but we have to keep ongoing.
MCKAIN: Absolutely.
BLITZER: Reverend, thank you for joining us. Reverend George McKain.
MCKAIN: Thank you very much.
BLITZER: That's it for me. I'll be back at 5:00 p.m. in "The Situation Room."
More news right after a quick break.
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