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McCarthy Drops Bid To Be Next House Speaker; Shooting Remark Taken Out Of Context; Carson Recounts Being Held At Gunpoint; Interview with Ben Carson. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired October 08, 2015 - 13:09   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), CALIFORNIA: Look, look, we have been talk -- I have been talking with a number of members. We've been thinking about this throughout the week trying to see if we can get there. I just think it's best if we have a new face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) -- How much did the -- your comments about Benghazi last week play into your decision (INAUDIBLE) today?

MCCARTHY: Well, that wasn't helpful. Yes, I mean, I could have said it much better. But this Benghazi committee was only created for one purpose, to find the truth on behalf of the families for the four dead Americans. I should not be a distraction from that. And that's part of the decision as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There have been some rumors that the letter that was put out by Congressman Young saying that --

MCCARTHY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then, can you just put a rest (ph) to it right now?

MCCARTHY: No, come on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who do you think --

MCCARTHY: Huh?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who do you think (INAUDIBLE)?

MCCARTHY: I think the conference should be able to decide. Thank you all very much.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: So, there you have the breaking news, Kevin McCarthy, the House Majority Leader, announcing it publicly right now. He's withdrawing his effort to become the next speaker of the House of Representatives. A huge, huge question mark now remains in the House, who will be the next speaker replacing John Boehner who has said he will step down at the end of this month.

Republican presidential candidate, Dr. Ben Carson, as all of our viewers here in the United States and around the world know, he's surging in the polls right now. He's just behind the front-runner, Donald Trump, in almost all of the national and key state polls. He's also fighting off some major controversies right now. Dr. Carson is out with a brand-new book today. It's entitled "A More Perfect Union: What We the People can do to Reclaim Our Constitutional Liberties." And Dr. Ben Carson is joining us here right now live. Dr. Carson, thanks very much for joining us.

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A pleasure.

BLITZER: I want to talk about the book, talk about the controversies, but your immediate reaction to the breaking news in the House of Representatives. Kevin McCarthy, a man I assume you know, has announced he's dropping out of the race for speaker.

CARSON: I say kudos to Representative McCarthy for putting others before himself. This is not something that we see very often in Washington, and I hope it's a trait that will be emulated by others as time goes on because, you know, we have a lot of problems that have to be solved and none of us should put ourselves ahead of those problems.

BLITZER: Who would you like to see emerge as the replacement to John Boehner as the next speaker?

CARSON: Well, I hope that this will open the process and that even more names will be thrown in and that they will all have an opportunity to express, you know, their vision for the country and how their leadership style will be manifested and then allow the members to vote.

BLITZER: Are you in general with the more establishment moderate Republican wing in the House of Representatives or the Tea Party supporters? Let's call them the renegade wing that effectively convinced Kevin McCarthy to pull out.

CARSON: I'm for the logical wing, for the people who want to do the things that will solve the problems in this country. And I don't really care which side of the aisle they come from.

BLITZER: Well, do you -- the two other names that are in there, Daniel Webster, Jason Chaffetz, do you like them?

CARSON: I like them both.

BLITZER: Could you see either one of them or both of them emerging?

CARSON: Absolutely.

BLITZER: And anybody else you like?

CARSON: I will -- I will talk about them as they enter their names into the contest.

BLITZER: As you've heard this momentum already building, it's only been minutes since Kevin McCartney dropped out, that Paul Ryan, who was the vice presidential nominee last time around, chairman of the Budget Committee, maybe he should think about it. CARSON: I like him, too.

BLITZER: You like them all. All right. You think this is a good move that McCarthy has decided to step out?

CARSON: It's a very unselfish move and done for the right reasons.

BLITZER: All right, let's talk about some of the controversies that you've, I guess, generated over the past few days. You've been severely criticized, as you well know, for this comment you made about the massacre at that community college in Oregon when you said this. I'll play the clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSON: And not only would I probably not cooperate with him, I would -- I would not just stand there and let him shoot me. I would say, hey, guys, everybody attack him. He may shoot me but he can't get us all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, you seem to suggest the victims should have done more.

CARSON: No, I'm not suggesting that at all. What the original question was, if you were there and someone was holding a gun to you and asking you about your religion and they had shot other people, what would you do? And knowing that you were next to be killed and that they were going to continue down the line killing people, I would much rather go down fighting. And if all of us attack the shooter, the chances are very strong that not all of us will be killed. To me, that doesn't seem like a very controversial thing.

[13:05:06] But when you take it out of context and you try to make it look like I'm criticizing the victims, that's when it becomes controversial.

And that's one of the things I'm hoping that the news media will stop doing because reading this book, you'll see that the press is the only business that's protected by a constitution. The reason they are protected is because it was assumed that they would be honest and they would be on the side of the people and not have an agenda.

BLITZER: Well, the press -- there's a lot of different parts of the press. We can get into that in a bit. One of -- one of the victims, a guy by the named of Matthew Downing, he was offended by your comments. He told CNN, I'm fairly upset, he, meaning you, he said that nobody could truly understand what actions they would take like that in a situation unless they lived it. Do you understand why he's worried, concerned about what you said?

CARSON: I suspect he probably has had it fed to him by somebody who misconstrued it. And I think if he had heard the complete explanation, such as I gave, he would know that I'm not complaining about any of the victims and he would know that I'm trying to plant the seed because this may not be the last time this occurs. And if it occurs again and there's a bunch of people, they might start thinking, you know what? We're not going to just take this. And that's one of the things that was learned from flight 93 on 911.

BLITZER: Chris Mintz, one of the heroes, one of the survivors, he was shot seven times. He resisted. He's relatively OK right now. He's been released from the hospital, but he's a military veteran. Not everybody is a military veteran and has experience in dealing with a gunman like this.

CARSON: You don't have to be a military veteran. Do you remember the Virginia shooting on the college campus? Afterwards, I am told that they came out with guidelines for the students to tell them what to do if a situation like that arises again. And it included throwing everything you could possibly throw at the shooter. You know, he's not going to be able to deal with all of it. In a -- in a sense, they were saying, attack him.

BLITZER: You spoke about a personal incident in a Sirius XM Radio interview yesterday, when you were younger and you were confronted by a gunman. I'll play the little clip. This is from the radio interview.

CARSON: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSON: A guy comes in, puts the gun in my ribs. And I just said, I believe that you want the guy behind the counter. He thought I was -- he thought I was --

KAREN HUNTER, HOST, "URBAN VIEW", SIRIUSXM RADIO: That's what you said. In a calm way?

CARSON: In a calm way.

HUNTER: In a calm way, OK.

CARSON: He said, OK. Over there.

HUNTER: And, oh, so you just misdirect -- redirected him to --

CARSON: I redirected him.

HUNTER: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: It's -- that sounds counter to what you're recommending right now.

CARSON: That's a completely different situation. This is somebody who comes into a joint to rob it, not somebody who's sequentially killing people.

BLITZER: But you didn't know he was just going to rob the joint. CARSON: I did know that.

BLITZER: He potentially could have killed you.

CARSON: I did know that. And the fact of the matter is maybe this is a level of sophistication people learn from living on the streets. But I knew that that guy was not there to murder everybody.

BLITZER: How could you possibly know that? He had a gun.

CARSON: I knew he was not there to murder all the people. I knew he was there to rob the place.

BLITZER: And that's why you said look at the guy over there, just rob the place and get then get out?

CARSON: Exactly.

BLITZER: When was that? How long ago was that?

CARSON: It's when I was a resident so it was a long time ago.

BLITZER: It was a long time ago.

The other controversy you've erupted on this issue is in your new book, "A More Perfect Union: What We the People can do to Reclaim Our Constitutional Liberties", is this, a reference to guns and Nazi Germany. You're familiar with this. I'll read a couple sentences from the book. German citizens were disarmed by their government in the late 1930s and by the mid-1940s, Hitler's regime had mercilessly slaughtered 6 million Jews and numerous others whom they considered inferior. Through a combination of removing guns and disseminating deceitful propaganda, the Nazis were able to carry out their evil intentions with relatively little resistance. So, what is the -- what is the point you're trying to make? If there had been guns in Germany, there might not have been a holocaust?

CARSON: My point is, they were -- that was only one of the countries that I mentioned. There were a number of countries where tyranny reigned. And before it happened, they disarmed the people. That was the point. Noah Webster said, when he was talking about tyranny, that the people of America would never suffer tyranny because they are armed.

BLITZER: So -- but just clarify, if there had been no gun control laws in Europe at that time, would 6 million Jews have been slaughtered?

CARSON: I think the likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people had been armed.

BLITZER: Because they had a powerful military machine, as you know, the Nazis.

CARSON: I understand that.

BLITZER: They could have simply gone in, and they did go in, and wipe out whole communities.

CARSON: But you realize there was a reason that they took the guns first, right?

BLITZER: So, you believe that if they had guns, maybe it could have been eased, is that what you're saying?

CARSON: I'm telling you that there is a reason that these dictatorial people take the guns first.

[13:10:01] BLITZER: Should kindergarten teachers be armed?

CARSON: My point is that many of the places where these mass shootings occur are gun-free zones. So, these people who are crazed but not so crazy as to go into a place where they're likely to get shot, they select these places because they know that they're not going to meet resistance. So, whether it's the kindergarten teacher who was well trained or a retired policeman or someone who can stop the carnage, I think it makes a lot of sense.

BLITZER: So, you're recommending, and you correct me if I'm wrong, elementary schools have guards, armed guards, or at least the teachers be armed?

CARSON: I am saying that they should have some mechanism whereby they can defend themselves.

BLITZER: What does that mean, some mechanism?

CARSON: That means not allowing this person just to come in and have free reign. We should have someone there who is armed, who is trained, and who can handle the weapon.

BLITZER: And just to be precise, I want to wrap up the gun issue, you don't want any additional gun laws in the United States, or do you believe there is room for closing the loophole to buy a gun at a gun show, for example, --

CARSON: OK.

BLITZER: -- or have greater background checks, if someone has psychological issues?

CARSON: I'm a very reasonable person, you'll find. And as long as we don't compromise the second amendment, I'm open for all kinds of discussions. You know, we're smart people and we need to be able to use our collective intellect instead of getting on opposite sides and throwing hand grenades at each other to solve this problem.

BLITZER: Rupert Murdoch, switching gears, tweeted this, praising you and your wife. I'll put it up on the screen. Clearly taking a swipe at President Obama. Ben and Candy Carson, terrific. What about a real black president who can properly address the racial divide and much else. That's a pretty shocking statement. He's now apologized, in effect. But that was pretty ugly. CARSON: Well, I know Rupert Murdoch. He's not a racist by any

stretch of the imagination. He's just expressing his opinion. I think it's much to do about nothing.

BLITZER: But he's suggesting that President Obama is not a real black president? At least he did in that initial --

CARSON: Everybody's entitled to their opinion. I believe what he was making reference to was the fact that here was a man who is a black president that the black community was very excited about who came in and whose policies have not really elevated the black community, has not been beneficial. There's more unemployment, more poverty and I believe that's what he was really referring to.

BLITZER: You believe the president is a real black president, though, right?

CARSON: I wouldn't even get into such a conversation.

BLITZER: Well, it's just a simple question. Is President Obama a real black president?

CARSON: Well, he's the president and he's black.

BLITZER: So, he's a real black president?

CARSON: If -- again, you know, we're dealing with semantics, as you know. I'm the last person who wants to play around with semantics and political correctness. You know, Rupert Murdoch said what he said. He apologized because a lot of people took it the wrong way. I think there are so many more important issues to deal with.

BLITZER: Because there's a whole history of these kinds of accusations, as you well know, of President Obama. Was he born -- do you believe he was born in the United States?

CARSON: I do believe that.

BLITZER: Do you believe he's a Christian?

CARSON: He says he is.

BLITZER: But -- I know he says he is but do you believe he is?

CARSON: I have to take him at his word.

BLITZER: Why can't you just say he's a Christian? If he goes to church, he believes in Christ, why can't you just simply say he's a Christian?

CARSON: I can simply say that I'll take him at his word.

BLITZER: OK. I also want to you clarify the issue of a Muslim president in the United States because there's been a lot of uproar about that. There should be no religious qualifications to becoming president of the United States. CARSON: I agree. I have no disagreement with that. And the people --

BLITZER: Well, explain why --

CARSON: -- and the people who --

BLITZER: -- you said you don't think there should be a Muslim president?

CARSON: If you heard the whole conversation, I said previous to that that anybody from any background, religious or otherwise, who accepts the values of America and is willing to put our constitution above their beliefs is fine with me. And then, it continued in another vein bringing up somebody who perhaps did not fit into that category. Well, if they don't fit into that category, because of their belief system, and in this case the assumption being that they are Islamic believers, part of the Islamic belief system, which is a lifestyle not just a simple religion, includes Sharia.

Now, there are components of Sharia that will place any religion that is not the same as theirs in a category of people they call the cafhere (ph). You can do anything you want to those people and you can put them into inferior position. You can also put women into an inferior position. You can also reap all kinds of horrible things upon homosexuals, up on divorcees or people caught in adultery and a host of other things. These things are not compatible with our constitution. If somebody could show me how they are compatible, I'll change my mind.

[13:15:13] BLITZER: But if a Muslim-American citizen says he wants to honor the -- he or she wants to honor the Constitution, obey the Constitution --

CARSON: Then they fit into the previous category where I said I have no problem.

BLITZER: So then -- so then (INAUDIBLE) could be president of the United States.

CARSON: No, of course they could.

BLITZER: All right, I just wanted to make sure that we're all on the same page.

CARSON: Right.

BLITZER: Obviously if you swear you're going to honor and obey the Constitution, whatever religion you are, or if you're an atheist for that matter --

CARSON: Sure.

BLITZER: You could become president of the United States.

CARSON: Of course. BLITZER: Let's get to some other issues. Jeb Bush, the Republican

presidential candidate, he has just said he opposes reauthorizing the Voting Rights Act. Do you agree with him?

CARSON: Well, you know, he probably -- I mean I would like to understand his rationale for that. But, of course, I want, you know, the Voting Rights Act to be protected. And, you know, whether we still need it or not, whether we've outgrown the need for it, it's questionable. Maybe we have. Maybe we haven't. But I wouldn't jeopardize it.

BLITZER: Well he says, in contrast to what Hillary Clinton says, that Voting Rights Act was written in an earlier -- you know, a few generations ago and those kinds of regulations that existed then to make sure some of the southern states honor voting rights for African- Americans, for example, he says those regulations are no longer needed because the country has moved forward.

CARSON: And he may well be right. But I don't see the disadvantage in maintaining the right.

BLITZER: So you're open to reauthorizing it as well?

CARSON: Yes.

BLITZER: OK. Let's talk about some of the other issues. The debt ceiling. As you know, in early November, it's got to be raised, otherwise the U.S. will fail to pay what it already has accumulated as far as its financial obligations.

CARSON: Sure.

BLITZER: What would you do about that if you were president of the United States?

CARSON: If -- if we keep raising it, it's sort of like, OK, you've reached the limit for your fourth credit card, I'll tell you what, why don't we get a fifth credit card and we keep -- that's not solving the problem. So, no, I am not in favor of continually raising the debt ceiling.

BLITZER: But something's going to happen in November and everyone agrees the U.S. has got to do something about reducing the annual deficit, reducing the national debt. But there are debts that the United States already has accumulate that have to be repaid, otherwise the U.S. goes into default.

CARSON: Well, there may be other places where we should be thinking about, you know, getting rid of some of our expense. We have 4.1 million federal employees. Do we really need 4.1 million federal employees? We have 645 federal agencies and sub agencies. Do we really need that? I mean we need to be looking at other things.

I know that Nancy Pelosi said, if you cut one penny, the whole system will collapse. You know what I say about that? It's not true. BLITZER: Everybody -- I think a lot of people agree there's a lot of

waste, fraud, there's corruption. You can cut the federal government. A lot of jobs can be eliminated. You could cut spending. I think almost everyone agrees with that. But in the short term, you've got to deal in early November with raising that debt ceiling and people are wondering if you were president what would you tell members of Congress to do?

CARSON: I would probably make a deal if I were suddenly president now, because it's too late to do what we need to do so that we don't have to raise it.

BLITZER: Because now and November, you're not going to cut all that spending.

CARSON: Right. But I would say, if we raise it now, it is on the stipulation and that I would say, you know, let's take all of those different agencies. You're going to cut your budget by 3 or 4 percent.

BLITZER: And, in other words, raise it now, but make sure that within a year all that spending is reduced so that the deficit goes down, down, down.

CARSON: Right, because we don't want to have -- keep having this problem.

BLITZER: All right. Well, that -- I think you've answered that question now.

Let's talk about your flat tax. What would it be? You want a flat tax across the board. You've suggested in the past tithing, as in the Bible, 10 percent for everyone, no matter what your income.

CARSON: Right. The tithing issue is proportionality, not necessarily to say that it would be 10 percent. Ten percent is an easy number to work with because people can understand the numbers. But it has to apply to everyone equally. It would probably be closer to 15 percent. There would be no deductions and no exemptions because the minute that you put those in, people start migrating toward them. And some people have more ability to migrate than others, so it makes it unfair.

And I know that there's some people who say it's not fair because, you know, the guy who made $10 billion and put in a billion, you know, he's still has $9 billion left. We've got to take more of his money. Well, that's socialism. And what made America great was just the opposite attitude. We would say, that guy put $1 billion in, let's make the environment even more friendly so next year he can put $2 billion in.

BLITZER: Because the argument that some economists make, serious economists, not partisan economists, is if you do that 10 percent or 15 percent flat tax, it's going to bring in less revenue into the federal treasury and as a result that deficit will go up, up and up.

[13:20:10] CARSON: It may not bring in quite as much as we're bringing in now, but recognize that it will also be done in conjunction with some responsible reductions.

BLITZER: Let's talk about national security, foreign policy while I have you. Doctors Without Borders, that medical facility in Europe. You're a doctor. You saw it was hit.

CARSON: Yes.

BLITZER: A lot of people were killed, doctors, nurses, patients, staff members. The president did this extraordinary thing yesterday, he called up the head of Doctors Without Borders to formally apologize on behalf of the United States. Would you have done that?

CARSON: Doctors Without Borders are incredibly brave people and they have my admiration and sympathy for what happened. Having said that, recognize that they are working in a very dangerous place. And when you work in a very dangerous place, you cannot expect that you're going to do so without safety. And I think they all understand that when they go into those situations.

In terms of what actually happened there, I believe that we're still peeling back the layers. We're getting lots of different stories. So I probably wouldn't have done that until I had the full story.

BLITZER: You wouldn't have called to apologize?

CARSON: Not until I had the full story.

BLITZER: There's going to be a U.S. investigation, a military investigation, a NATO investigation, an Afghan government investigation. But Doctors Without Borders wants an international U.N. investigation as well. Should the U.S. cooperate with an outside U.N. international investigation?

CARSON: As long as we were conducting our own investigations, I would have no difficulty with that.

BLITZER: The whole issue of the war in Afghanistan, yesterday was the 14th anniversary of the start of the U.S. war. October 7, 2001, the U.S. began air strikes in Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban, al Qaeda. That war still continues to this very day. Nearly 10,000 U.S. troops are still in Afghanistan. How much longer do you think the U.S. should remain there, spending tens of billions of dollars to train Afghan troops, many of whom simply run away at the first sign of trouble?

CARSON: Well, recognize that Afghanistan is sort of a wild place. Many people have gone in and tried to tame it and they've all had the same result. And they don't have a real central governing structure. They have 300 tribal leaders.

Now, some of the northern ones, the northern alliance, have been pretty dependable and we've been able to work with them in the past. And as you probably know, I have never really been for putting a bunch of our troops in Afghanistan. It doesn't mean I don't support a vigorous response to terrorism. But I believe that we have other mechanisms, special forces, drones, et cetera, that can render us very effective in taking care of those people. I don't have any problem with us going after Osama bin Laden in Pakistan and maybe using Afghanistan as a launching pad. But we do not necessarily gain anything from putting a lot of our troops in harm's way.

BLITZER: So when President Obama says those 10,000 who are still there, bring them all back by the end of next year, maybe 1,000 remaining in Afghanistan, some to protect the U.S. embassy in Kabul, on that specific, narrow issue, you're with him?

CARSON: Well, no, I'm not necessarily with him because they're there now and they're playing a role now. I would not have had them there in the first place, but they are there and we have to deal with reality. It's just like I wasn't in favor of going into Iraq, but we went in to there. We destabilized the situation. And we had an obligation to stay there and ensure that it remained stable throughout time. And we did not do that and it resulted in the creation of ISIS and a lot of instability.

BLITZER: So -- so going into Iraq, going into Afghanistan, I just want to be precise, you say both of those were -- when they happened in 2001 and 2003 were major blunders.

CARSON: I was not for them, but I was for action. There's a difference.

BLITZER: What would you do about the Russian involvement in Syria right now?

CARSON: Well, you need to recognize that Vladimir Putin has great ambitions, great expansionist ambition, and he was very disappointed when the Soviet Union dissolved. He wants to re-establish the influence in the Middle East. He already has substantial ties in the Middle East. And in the class of 1968, at Patrice (ph) Labamba (ph) University in Moscow, Mahmoud Abbas was one of those members of that class and so was Khamenei, Ali Khamenei. They were classmates. And that's when they first established relationships with a young Vladimir Putin. This was long-standing.

And now he's finding a friendly face in Assad, an Assad regime, who's also being supported, you know, by the Iranians. And what we have to do is recognize that this is just the beginning. You know, he came in there. He said he was going to fight ISIS. That wasn't his ideal. He really wanted to fight al Nasra, al Jalani (ph), that whole group, anybody who was against Assad. We should be able to see that now.

[13:25:14] So we need to oppose him. When his general came along and said, you guys cannot fly in this area, we should have said, not only are we going to fly in this area, but you go take a flying leap. And we should establish a no-fly zone along the Turkish border. And we need to challenge him everywhere in the world. We need to challenge him in the whole Baltic basin, not just the Baltic states. We need to re-establish missile defense. We need to have more than one or two armored brigades that we float around in the area. We need to give weapons to Ukraine because they got rid of their nuclear supply on the promise that we would protect them if they were invaded. You know there -- I mean we -- we have to get in his face. We have to

understand that his weakness is an economic weakness. And we have strength in some areas where he has weakness. You know, we need to get rid of our energy exportation routes. We need to export natural gas, which we can liquefy now and make Europe dependent on us so that we can decrease its influence. In other words, we must be proactive. We can't sit around and just wait.

BLITZER: One final, political question. I know you've got to run.

CARSON: OK.

BLITZER: You're almost in every national poll, state -- key state polls, number two, right behind the front-runner, Donald Trump. I said that at the beginning of this interview.

CARSON: Yes.

BLITZER: What are you going to do to become the front-runner in the Republican race for the White House?

CARSON: Well, you know, I don't think like a normal politician, because I'm not a politician. And I just think in terms of continuing to get my message out there, helping people to see who I am as opposed to who some of the media says I am, and they will make the appropriate decision.

BLITZER: Do you like Donald Trump?

CARSON: Yes, absolutely.

BLITZER: Because he said you were just an OK doctor. And we know you're -- you weren't just an OK doctor.

CARSON: It's OK. You know, I told him he was an OK doctor, too.

BLITZER: The book is entitled "The More Perfect Union: What We the People Can do to Reclaim our Constitutional Liberties." It's already a bestseller. I'm sure it's going to be a number one bestseller at some point.

CARSON: Thank you, Wolf. Appreciate it.

BLITZER: Thanks very much.

CARSON: OK.

BLITZER: Dr. Ben Carson, thanks very much for joining us.

Much more coming up on the race for 2016.

Plus, the absolute shocker up on Capitol Hill today. The race for speaker of the House just veered off course. Much more of the breaking news right after this.

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