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Rosenstein Meets with Kelly; Rosenstein to meet with Trump; Fate of Rosenstein; Congressman on Rosenstein Story. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired September 24, 2018 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:00:13] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington. Thanks very much for joining us.

We start with break news. The Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein's future is up in the air. A source telling CNN he expects to be fired, but not yet. The White House saying moments ago that President Trump will meet with Rosenstein on Thursday when the president returns to Washington.

This comes just days after a truly stunning report saying Rosenstein actually suggested secretly recording President Trump after he fired James Comey back in 2017 and discussed using the 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution to oust him. Both claims Rosenstein denies.

Let's get straight to our justice correspondent, Evan Perez, who's working this story for us.

So what's the very latest, Evan? What are you learning?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The very latest is, Wolf, that Rod Rosenstein is on his he way back to the Justice Department. He has just now left the White House where he met with the chief of staff, John Kelly. The question is, how much longer is he going to stay in that job? For now, at least, he is still the deputy attorney general. He has a meeting scheduled now, according to the White House, with the president on Thursday where they will discuss some of the comments that you just mentioned, these reports that emerged on Friday about comments he made last year, just weeks into his tenure, and whether or not he will be able to stay in this job.

Look, Wolf, it's been clear that Rod Rosenstein expected this day to come. He certainly did not expect it to be today. He expected that certainly those comments when they were reported on Friday, and he issued a set of denials, both denials that he issued on Friday, he thought at least over the weekend that those denials were going to be enough. But it appears that he went into this meeting at the White House where he met with John Kelly and, as a result of that meeting now, he's expecting to meet the president when he comes back from the United Nations later this week. So now we will wait to see whether or not Rod Rosenstein will survive

that meeting on Thursday. Keep in mind, obviously, Rod Rosenstein's position as the deputy attorney general. He is the top official at the Justice Department overseeing the Robert Mueller investigation. And that's the reason why there's a lot of nervousness, there's a lot of attention as to whether he stays or goes. At this point, right now, he is still the deputy attorney general. He's, I believe, just a few minutes away from entering the Justice Department, returning to his job.

He attended a meeting at the White House at the end of his meeting with John Kelly. He actually sat for another meeting according to officials who were briefed on that meeting. So it appears that a lot of the conjecture and a lot of the confusion this morning will not be settled, at least until Thursday, when the president gets back to Washington from the United Nations, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Evan, thank you.

Evan Perez with the very latest.

So, is Rosenstein, is he about to get fired? Is he about to resigned? Lots of questions surrounding the fate of Rosenstein now that he has met with the White House Chief of Staff John Kelly.

In an interview on Geraldo Rivera's radio show, President Trump would not say whether or not he planned to fire Rosenstein.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it's a very sad story. And people are obviously -- we are looking into it. But it's a very sad state of affairs when something like that can happen.

I don't want to comment on it until I get all the facts. I haven't gotten all the facts. But certainly it's being looked at in terms of what took place, if anything took place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's go to our chief White House correspondent Jim Acosta. He's outside Trump Tower in New York City, where the president is at least for a few days this week.

Jim, what are you hearing from White House officials?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we can tell you that Sarah Sanders, the White House press secretary, finally, after all of this reporting going back and forth as to what would happen for the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, she has put out a statement saying that for now Rod Rosenstein has not been fired. He has not resigned. He is going to meet with the president on Thursday.

And, Wolf, we can put this up on screen. It's very cautiously worded, we should note, but it's -- this is what it says. It says, at the request of Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, he and President Trump had an extended conversation to discuss the recent news stories. Because the president is at the United Nations General Assembly and has a full schedule with leaders from around the world, they will meet on Thursday when the president returns to Washington, D.C.

Of course, Wolf, we should point out, this meeting with Rod Rosenstein and the president on Thursday is going to happen on the same day as this very high profile, very high stakes hearing that is supposed to take place up on the Senate Judiciary Committee featuring the president's Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh and his accuser, Christine Blasey Ford.

So, Wolf, obviously Thursday is going to be sort of a double Super Bowl day when it comes to news down in Washington. But for now it seems, Wolf, and I should point out, just before this statement came out from the White House press secretary, I had heard from a very good source close to this process who said that Rod Rosenstein was at the White House earlier this morning, but that he was there for a previously scheduled meeting. And in addition to that, that he was still on the job.

[13:05:23] And so the question, Wolf, is, is whether or not perhaps he was heading over to the White House thinking because of these discussions that were taking place over the weekend about his fate that perhaps he thought going into these meetings over at the White House this morning that he was going to lose his job. But, at the end of the day, that did not happen.

A couple of other notes we should point out, Wolf. You mentioned the 25th Amendment, talk of the 25th Amendment that apparently Rod Rosenstein was engaged in. That did come up earlier this morning. I was at a press conference featuring the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, the U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley, the National Security Adviser John Bolton, and I asked Nikki Haley and Mike Pompeo whether or not in the early days of the administration, you know, during any time in the administration, were they ever aware of any conversations involving the 25th Amendment, and both high level cabinet officials, Wolf, top level officials in the administration said, not only had they never heard of these types of conversations going on, but they felt that those conversations, if they had ever taken place, or the notion that they would take place, were absurd and ridiculous.

And so even if Rod Rosenstein at one point last year thought it would be a good idea to invoke the 25th Amendment, at least when you take it from Nikki Haley and Mike Pompeo, they would never have been interested as far as what they told us earlier this morning, Wolf, in being a part of any kind of scheme to invoke the 25th Amendment and have the president removed from office, Wolf.

BLITZER: Lots of uncertainty right now. Jim Acosta in New York with the president, thank you very much.

Obviously a great deal to discuss. Let's bring in former national security and Department of Justice prosecutor Joseph Moreno, CNN legal analyst Laura Coats, our chief political correspondent Dana Bash and our chief political analyst Gloria Borger.

So, Rosenstein's fate very much up in the air right now.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Wolf, I don't think this is a marriage that can be saved. I mean I think what you have is a Band-Aid right now until the president gets back from New York City with all of his meetings with the foreign leaders at the United Nations General Assembly. And I think that they had an extended conversation. The president has no love for Rod Rosenstein. I think it would be Rosenstein's preference, from all of our reporting, to resign rather than be fired. You can -- you can imagine that.

But I don't think there's any way to kind of save this relationship at this particular point. So I think they just -- you know, they're just putting it off until the president is back in town and Rosenstein will continue doing his job for, what, three or four more days.

BLITZER: How do you see it, Dana?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, I mean I have been speaking to sources inside the Republican Party who are engaged in this with the White House, who say, you know, very opposite things, which I think speaks to why we are where we are with this massive confusion. One source I spoke to said it would be a very big mistake for the president to fire Rod Rosenstein. Had conversations with the White House to that effect and had no indication that there was anything that was different about it, at least in the near future.

And then, on the flip side, another Republican source reminded me about the House in particular, about their -- the fact that they absolutely despised Rod Rosenstein. Remember, they had tried to push articles of impeachment against Rosenstein. And so the plan --

BLITZER: We're talking about very conservative Freedom Caucus activists.

BASH: Freedom Caucus. Right. Exactly. And so there is a move and maybe even, if he stays in, it could happen to call Rosenstein up to The Hill to get him to answer questions under oath about whether he said in a serious manner that he wanted to record the president and/or that he, you know, discussed invoking the 25th Amendment.

So that is the dynamic, sort of the backdrop that all of this is up against and it's -- it is really important to know. And those are the thing that the president is hearing. Which is why, frankly, he wasn't gone right away when this story came out on Friday.

BORGER: Right. (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: Even though the president has no -- there's no love lost there. He actually understands all of those dynamics, not to mention the public pressure from Republicans on another news channel.

BORGER: Well, and can -- right. And can I mention one more thing, which is that there -- there is some sense among conservative that the president could be set up on this.

BASH: Right. BORGER: And that maybe perhaps "The New York Times" story on Friday came from memos of Andrew McCabe, whom the president does not trust and who Jeff Sessions fired. And so it's kind of a complicated reality show right now, you know? The president not liking him, wanting to fire him, but not wanting to fire him. I can't imagine that Rosenstein doesn't want to resign.

BASH: Yes.

[13:10:04] BORGER: It would seem to me he would.

BASH: Yes. That's what our reporting shows.

BORGER: Right. Yes.

BASH: Also, could we just underscore the fact that Rosenstein went to the White House this morning and ended up participating in a previously scheduled principals meeting. Meaning, he was sitting at the table with other senior administration officials talking about whatever policy issues were on the agenda while all of this is swirling.

BORGER: That's a good, straight face.

BASH: Only in the Trump administration.

BLITZER: Yes, what would be the impact, Joseph, on the Mueller investigation if Rosenstein is fired as opposed to resigning, because there's a difference, the president has greater ability to put somebody in charge of the Mueller investigation if Rosenstein resigns as opposed to being fired.

JOSEPH MORENO, FORMER DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PROSECUTOR: That's right. There is an idiosyncrasy in the Department of Justice regulations that makes a distinction between whether Rosenstein is fired or is -- resigns voluntarily. Most likely the name Noel Francisco will become a household name if any of this happens because most likely the solicitor general will become the person, for better or for worse, who oversees the Mueller investigation. He is conservative. He is a long time D.C. fixture. He's very well known. He's well respected. But he is ideologically aligned.

So now if that -- if that changes, there could be -- the alternate is an acting deputy attorney general. Basically someone who is Senate confirmed in another position within DOJ who could be implemented into that spot by the president. So it remains to be seen how that falls out. I would just add though, a lot of the confidence that we've seen in the public support of the Mueller investigation is because of two people, Bob Mueller and Rod Rosenstein. If either one of them go for whatever reason, I think you will see a crumbling of support in the investigation and, to my perspective, process is important and you want that public support.

BLITZER: What -- what about that?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, you absolutely do and you're right. And the idea here is, it's not all -- it's not really new news that Rod Rosenstein has been vulnerable. He's been vulnerable his entire tenure with the DOJ under this particular position. He came in. He was already looked at as maybe a potential witness in the obstruction aspect of an investigation because of his own drafting of a memorandum about why James Comey usurped the authority of AG Loretta Lynch. He was already venerable there. He's already somebody who, though multiple litigation disputes from people who Mueller has tried to seek and get in front of the grand jury has said, look, Robert Mueller doesn't have any checked power here. You have somebody who -- and Rod Rosenstein lets him do whatever he'd like to do. There's no oversight function. Vulnerable there as well.

And now you have this latest thing where you essentially put the president of the United States in the conundrum. Either he has to go ahead and relish in a way that he could actually have an out to fire somebody he doesn't want in the position, or he has to admit that Andy McCabe, the former acting FBI director for a short stint, who wrote the contemporaneous written memo, is not a liar when it comes to a memo. And "The New York Times" is suddenly authoritative and credible. So the president has a very, very key conundrum here.

But the public perception is the most key here. It doesn't -- it doesn't evade a lot of people -- or elude a lot of people to know that Rudy Giuliani, Jay Sekulow had said, that September they wanted the investigation to be over. And now you have September, the end of the month, suddenly maybe an entree into that very thing happening. Coincidence? I think not.

BLITZER: And as you know, Gloria, a lot of Republican leaders were urging the White House to hold off on any purge over at the Justice Department --

COATES: Absolutely.

BLITZER: At least until after the Kavanaugh confirmation takes place.

BORGER: Right. I mean they didn't -- you know, when we were hearing this late Friday, which was they were saying to him, you know, slow down because we really, you know, we really want to have one problem at a time and we need to get through Kavanaugh and we don't want to take the velocity of a pushing Kavanaugh through -- anything away from that. And, you know, we'll let this -- just let this settle until it's over.

SO it -- obviously that didn't happen. And who inspired that, you know, is probably the deputy attorney general himself because Rod Rosenstein wasn't getting political advice about -- about the timing of when he should leave. I mean I think he -- you know, they were about to call him up to The Hill. He's in a -- he's in a difficult situation. And again, his relationship with the president, while people say it's gotten better, it reached a low after Michael Cohen's office was raided and the president was really upset about the fact that the deputy attorney general would have approved that because that kind of a thing would have had to go through him. So it's been a -- it's been a relationship that from the get go has been a bit --

BLITZER: Very quickly, though.

BASH: And, remember, there has been a bipartisan call for some time to pass legislation protecting Robert Mueller, protecting the investigation. It is hard to see the Republican leadership, who was reluctant before, changing their tune on that now six weeks before election day when everybody is focused on one key thing that independent voters who will make or break this election are worried about, and that is chaos in Washington. Today didn't help and certainly a fight between the Republican leadership and the Republican president on legislation on Mueller won't help either.

[13:15:06] BLITZER: All right, everyone stand by because there's a lot more news unfolding.

Some Democrats already sounding the alarm, calling this a Saturday night massacre in slow motion. I'll speak live with one lawmaker s calls grow to protect Robert Mueller and his Russia investigation.

Plus, the other major story we're following, the fate of the U.S. Supreme Court nominee, Judge Brett Kavanaugh, also very unclear right now after a new allegation surfaces. The president now weighing in as tensions boil over up on Capitol Hill involving the key senators who will vote on his confirmation.

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[13:20:02] BLITZER: Right now the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein's future very much up in the air. Just wrapped up a meeting over at the White House with the chief of staff, John Kelly, where a source told CNN, Rosenstein expected he would be fired, but that clearly did not happen, at least not yet. Now the White House is saying only moments ago that President Trump will meet with Rod Rosenstein on Thursday when the president returns to Washington from New York, where he's attending meetings involving the United Nations.

Joining us now, Democratic Congressman Steve Cohen of Tennessee.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

Let me get your quick reaction to all the breaking news. What do you think?

REP. STEVE COHEN (D), TENNESSEE: It's disturbing because I've always felt that there would be an effort to dislodge this investigation, to hamper it. And I think we're going to see that. And it's so ironic and disturbing that "The New York Times," publication that I've always felt was the gray lady in a respected publication, is responsible for putting out unverified stories that have given the president the authority, I guess, or the public support to fire Rosenstein, which could jeopardize -- would jeopardize the Mueller investigation.

BLITZER: Well, are you suggesting "The New York Times" information is inaccurate?

COHEN: Well, I think it was definitely based on source. The headline in the story didn't say allegations or claims from unidentified sources. It said Rosenstein called for wearing a wire and called for the possibility of invoking the 25th Amendment. It wrote it, the headline and the story, as fact and not that it was just alleged by an individual and the fact it came from McCabe, who had a grudge against Rosenstein for his firing lends less credence to it. That wasn't mentioned in the article. So I think their reporting was less than "The New York Times" was historically respected for.

BLITZER: Well, those two reporters who wrote the article in "The New York Times," I've got to tell you, they have a very, very strong track record. They're highly respected.

But let's move on. Let's talk a little bit about what would happen if Rosenstein were either forced to resign or fired by the president. What would happen?

COHEN: Well, either way, I think you'd see less independence from Mueller. I think what you'd see, and I think you will see him fired or asked to resign. And I don't think -- I don't know that he will, but if he resigned it will be pressured. I think you'll see what Bob Woodward said, that Trump sees power as fear and he will use this as a way to instill fear in Mueller, fear in the U.S. attorneys in the Southern District of New York and eastern Virginia and every place was an I investigation. And fear will be the predominant feeling of prosecutors Justice Department and FBI.

BLITZER: One of the main voices in the president's ear clearly is the Fox News host, Sean Hannity. I want you to listen to his message that he delivered directly to the president the other night.

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: I have a message for the president tonight. Under zero circumstances should the president fire anybody. These actors tonight. And I have multiple sources confirming this. And more information coming. They are hoping and praying that the president does just that. They're hoping he gets mad, that he gets sick and tired of it, and that they can turn this politically into their equivalent of a Friday night massacre. The president needs to know it is all a set up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Says it's a set up. What's your take?

COHEN: You know, there are people that think it's a setup by Conservative Freedom Party Republicans. There are others that think it's a set up by liberal Democrats. You know, I don't know, Colonel Mustard might have done it in the parlor. Nobody really knows what's going on. There are just all a bunch of speculation.

I think Sean Hannity is giving Trump good advice. I think politically it will hurt the Republicans if he fires or forces the resignation of Rosenstein. I think it will give the people that are maybe on the -- in the middle more of a feeling that there needs to be the Democratic check on this president and that it will hurt the Republicans in the midterms. And that's what Sean Hannity's telling him. I don't know if the president will go along with that or not. I think the meeting Thursday, which may happen at the same time as Christine Blasey Ford's testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee, and it will be a big day Thursday. And I don't know if you have a split screen or what, but I think Trump could use it as a way to take away from that. He wants to get Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court and he'll do anything to help move that along.

BLITZER: We'll see what happens. It's a long time between now and Thursday.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

COHEN: Time's up. Thank you.

[13:25:02] BLITZER: All right, thank you.

We're going to have much more coming in on all of this. The president's lawyers, by the way, now demanding a time out in the Mueller investigation if Rosenstein resigns. You're going to hear their reasons and the likelihood of a pause in the investigation.

Plus, new tensions boiling over up on Capitol Hill right now as a new allegation surfaces against the president's Supreme Court nominee. Why Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation is becoming more uncertain by the day.

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[13:30:09] BLITZER: Right now, sexual assault survivor and supporters are rallying outside the U.S. Supreme Court.