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Campbell Brown

God & Guns in Pennsylvania; Will Pope's Visit Impact Presidential Race?; Mitt Romney on McCain's Economy Plan

Aired April 15, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Lou.
In politics, it's known as the three G's, God, guns, and gay, the three issues Democratic politicians always seem to get trapped by.

Well, tonight, exactly one week away from the Pennsylvania primary, we examine two of those issues, God and guns, because they seem to be looming ahead in Pennsylvania.

So, let's begin with our look at where everybody is today, the view from 30,000 feet.

Hillary Clinton stayed in Washington for a speech to the newspaper association of America, while Bill Clinton is hitting small towns in southeastern Pennsylvania. Barack Obama kicked off his day with a speech in Washington, D.C., and then headed to a town hall in Washington, Pennsylvania.

Michelle Obama is stumping for her husband in Pennsylvania. And John McCain, he's there too. With the nomination locked up, he can afford to look past next week's primary. McCain's wife, Cindy, stayed off the campaign trail.

And while Pope Benedict isn't running for anything, his arrival in Washington does mean that millions of voters will be focusing on the world's highest-profile opponent of abortion rights. And that may carry huge political implications. The pope is already making headlines, talking about the priest sex abuse scandal that has scarred the American church.

He told reporters on his plane today the crisis left him feeling deeply ashamed. He has an accent, but listen to exactly how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE BENEDICT XVI: We are deeply ashamed, and we will do all that is possible that this cannot happen in future.

I would not speak in this moment about homosexuality, about pedophilia, what is an other thing. We will absolutely exclude pedophiles from the sacred ministry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Catholics make up about 20 percent of U.S. voters, but, as Ted Rowlands show us, Catholics are anything but a one-size-fits- all voting bloc.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's been nine years since the pope visited, and now millions of American Catholics are waiting with anticipation to hear what Pope Benedict will and won't say as he begins his six-day visit.

His reputation, soft-spoken and professorial, not a showman, his credentials, based in strict theological study. So, as a no-nonsense, by-the-book spiritual leader, many wonder how Pope Benedict will relate to U.S. Catholics, a massive flock renowned and criticized for practicing a not-so-strict faith. Experts say the pope actually appreciates the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say, even more John Paul II, this pope has an appreciation for some of the great achievements, governmentally, in terms of religious freedom, separation of church and state, than any pope in the past.

ROWLANDS: But who is a Catholic today? It's a fast-moving target, despite the massive and rampant priest sex abuse scandals and the loss of some disenfranchised churchgoers. The fact is, the actual number of Catholics are up, in large part because of Latinos and other immigrants. Nowhere has the change been felt more than in Los Angeles. The largest diocese in the United States, at five million, is 70 percent Hispanic.

TOD TAMBERG, LOS ANGELES ARCHDIOCESE: What has happened in California is happening throughout the country.

ROWLANDS: Tod Tamberg from the Los Angeles Archdiocese says the influx of Hispanics is also being felt in Catholic churches across the country, including the South. He says they bring a very strong faith.

TAMBERG: They come from a more traditional culture. They're newly immigrated. Usually in the second and third generation, you start to see as they become more Americanized.

ROWLANDS: According to a study published by the Pew Research Group, U.S. Hispanic Catholics are more conservative than the rest of the flock on issues like abortion and gay marriage. Hispanics generally fall more in line with the Vatican than other U.S. Catholics.

With a photo of Pope Benedict on the alter, parishioners at afternoon mass at the Cathedral of Our Lady of Angels prayed for the pontiff, hoping his visit can help heal some lingering old wounds and help bring the new American Catholic Church together.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: During this visit, the pope is limiting his travel to Washington, D.C., and New York City, but his sermons and speeches will reverberate around the world.

For the insider's guide of who he's meeting and why for the next six historic days, we turn now to CNN senior Vatican analyst John Allen and Vatican reporter Delia Gallagher. Both had covered the Vatican for years and both flew with him aboard Shepherd One from Rome to Washington today.

Welcome to both of you.

John, let me start with you. The pope isn't casting this as a political trip by any means, but he does have an agenda. What's his message going to be? What are the goals of his trip?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, first of all, Campbell, I think you hit the top note. The pope is not a superdelegate riding into Washington to deliver a key endorsement in the 2008 American elections.

I think he actually will sort of move heaven and earth, figuratively speaking, to try to stay above the political fray. I think his basic message, he outlined in a video for the American people he released before leaving Rome. He wants to bring a message of Christian hope.

And that is, he wants to argue that the church joins all of humanity in looking for peace and justice in human welfare. From his own point of view, the answer to that riddle is found in the person and the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Now, that can sound sort of pious or abstract, but as you noted at the top of this segment, it does have real-world political consequences. It means on the one hand opposition to abortion. It also has meant for both the previous pope and this one opposition to the U.S.-led war in Iraq. It's also meant strong environmental teachings. So, all of that will be in the mix in these five days that Benedict is on American soil.

BROWN: All right, Delia, paint us a picture of the man, because you have known Pope Benedict XVI since his days as a cardinal. And he's a very different person from his predecessor, John Paul II, a very different kind of leader. What can we expect?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN FAITH AND VALUES CORRESPONDENT: Well, and he's a very different person from his reputation as well, Campbell, because it's been said the pope is a timid person, he's a professorial person.

If you really want to understand Pope Benedict, you have to read his speeches. There's no other way about it, because his talent is in his writing and in his ability to zero in with elegant, incisive language. And we saw it today when he said, we are deeply ashamed about the sex abuse crisis. I mean, that word ashamed in itself is very powerful, much more so than saying, we are sorry.

So, I call him the pope for the Internet age. John Paul II was the pope for the TV age, with the sound bites and his ability on the world stage to give us a grand gesture. Pope Benedict won't deliver that same kind of thing, but people need to go to the Internet, print out his full speeches, and read them in the quiet of their own homes and try and meet him in that way, because that's where -- that's where his wisdom is.

BROWN: John, you said, well, you know, this isn't a political trip. We don't, certainly, expect the pope to talk about the election.

But the Pennsylvania primary is only a week away. The Catholic vote there is key. Do you think his message, the issues you addressed that he plans to talk about, could they be influential in the campaign? And, if so, how?

ALLEN: Well, Pennsylvania is a great test case for any political fallout from this visit, precisely because the Catholic population there is so large, more than three million Catholics. It's about 30 percent of the state's population.

You know, I don't think that anything the pope is going to say or do himself is likely to have direct implications for how Catholics vote in Pennsylvania, because, as I said a moment ago, his message actually doesn't skew neatly in the direction of one party or the other.

Certainly, he will talk about the life issues that help Republicans, but he will also be talking about peace and justice issues that tend to skew more to the American left. So, I think the issue is not so much what is the pope going to do. I think the issue is, how is that going to be spun?

Both the Obama and the Clinton campaigns have very high-level Catholics for Obama and Catholics for Hillary operations. I think each of them will be wanting to pick up bits and pieces of what the pope says and kind of feed that through the sausage grinder of the spin room and the war rooms that we associate with American campaigns.

So, I really think the cash-out of this trip at the political level is going to be determined by that war for the microphone among the two sides. Hillary has been doing much better with Catholics up to this point. She won them decisively in both Iowa and Texas.

BROWN: Right.

ALLEN: But Obama has been gaining. He has the endorsement of Senator Casey, a hero to pro-life Catholic Democrats. It's going to be very interesting to watch how that plays out.

BROWN: You're right, all about the spin. It will be an interesting week, for sure.

Delia and John, thanks to you both. Appreciate it.

And countdown to Pennsylvania -- there is little doubt that the pope's visit will provide at least a new frame for the debate. But in the meantime, we do have the latest poll data also -- when we come back. And hint: It is tight, way tight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It was a history-making welcome for the pope, the first time any U.S. president has been on hand at the start of a papal visit.

President Bush, the first lady, their daughter Jenna were there, waiting at the bottom of the flight of stairs when Pope Benedict arrived at Andrews Air Force Base near Washington just this afternoon.

And we can expect much of the pope's message to come through the lens of the superheated presidential campaign. But while his first visit to the U.S. will be jampacked with events featuring plenty of political leaders, the pope will not be meeting or endorsing any of the presidential candidates, as much as they might like that.

With only one week to go until the Pennsylvania primary, our poll of polls shows Hillary Clinton hanging onto a five-point lead over Barack Obama. But that's after weeks of steady shrinking. And these numbers don't fully reflect the controversy over Obama's comments that rural Pennsylvanians cling to religion and guns because they're bitter about losing their jobs.

His remarks put both God and guns on the front burner. And we want to look at what that could mean for voters.

With me tonight, President Bush's former speechwriter Mike Gerson, how is now a "Washington Post" columnist. He's the author of "Heroic Conservatism." You should also know he hasn't endorsed any candidate or contributed to any campaign. Also joining with us, CNN contributor Roland Martin in Chicago, and senior political correspondent Candy Crowley, who's in Philadelphia.

And, Candy, let me start with you.

About a third of Pennsylvania's voters are Catholic. And that is a huge percentage. We have got a brand-new Quinnipiac poll that shows white Catholics in the state supporting Clinton over Obama about two- to-one. Why is she seemingly connecting so much better with Catholics than he is?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think for a couple of reasons. I think, first of all, remember that Catholics voted for Bill Clinton in '92 and '96. So, the Clinton name carries some cache here. They remember him fondly. I also think, though, there are some overlapping constituencies here.

When you say Catholics in Pennsylvania, you're talking in large part about the working class. And the working-class vote, particularly among whites, has belonged to Hillary Clinton. She does very well in that demographic. Also, when you're talking about Catholics, you are talking about older women. And that is her target audience.

So, I think it's not just that they're Catholic, but there are other things. And this amounts to roughly a two-to-one edge that she has.

BROWN: And, Mike, let me go to you on this. Earlier, we showed some poll numbers indicating Senator Obama's recent comments about people clinging to religion haven't really heard him thus far, at least, in Pennsylvania. There are other polls out tonight from North Carolina, Indiana, that have similar findings.

Do you think he's weathered the storm, or has this not played out yet?

MICHAEL GERSON, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, I'm not sure it has, because I think it confirms a preexisting problem. He really does get a lot of support in the primaries before this from wealthier and more educated Democrats.

And it sounds like he's looking down on people who aren't wealthy and educated. And I think that Clinton's pressing hard on this and we have yet to see what the result is going to be, because she took some real hits on her own run-ins with the truth, with Bosnia and other things, that I think tightened the numbers. But this may have stabilized her situation.

Roland, I know you have a response to that.

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, of course.

First of all, the comments that Candy made were absolutely on the mark. There are overlapping issues. And so, in Pennsylvania, many more blue-collar workers, she does a lot well.

But you know what, though? This whole notion that, when you speak about guns and you talk about religion, somehow, you're looking down on people, why is it that we cannot accept the reality that people are indeed angry about the whole issue of the economy?

I can tell you this here. I talked to several different pastors who will tell you that, when the economy is going well, yes, they might get phone calls from their members. They will be there on Sunday. They might come to Bible study. But when the economy tanks, you know what? They're calling that pastor for prayer. They're at church every Sunday. They're at Bible study.

So, the reality is, when we have difficult times, we do reach out to faith. After 9/11, remember, churches and synagogues and mosques were packed. People had not gone to churches in years. That's what happens when you reach rough times. And, so, it is a reality that people accept religion in those moments.

BROWN: OK. Let me bring this back to Catholics in particular. I will throw this at you, Candy, because the pope's visit this week is no doubt going to highlight certain issues in the minds of Catholic voters.

In the past, that's often been abortion, but that's not necessarily the case this year. We expect to hear him talk a lot about the war in Iraq, immigration. Does that, in and of itself, benefit Democrats?

CROWLEY: I think so, particularly the war in Iraq. The Catholic Church has largely been against this war from the beginning, from the pulpit, a lot of Catholics against this war. So, I think the issue itself has always had a lot of resonance in the Catholic community.

I think, also, I must say that Democrats are reaching out to people of all religions, sort of talking at a different level than abortion, talking about feeding the poor, or housing the homeless, that kind of thing, and trying to kind of redirect the conversation.

BROWN: All right, Candy, Mike, Roland, all of you, stay there. We're going to get more from you in just a few moments, but a brief program note now: tomorrow night, a special look at how some say religion and politics make the country stronger, while others say politics and religion should never mix.

For every one of you, it is a personal, if not a deep decision, so join us right here at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time for "Politics, Prayer, & Passion."

And God is just one of the hot issues in Pennsylvania right now. So are guns. And that means some very different groups of gun owners are listening -- next, a look at just who is in the gun audience and what they are saying.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As you can see, looking at those numbers, guns and hunting are a given in Pennsylvania, but so too are inner-city shootings and murders.

We asked CNN's Joe Johns to look at what Pennsylvanians really think about their guns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, gun ownership in Pennsylvania cuts across all kinds of lines, educational lines, social lines, economic lines. So, it's just a little bit surprising that it's taken these two campaigns this long to get around to talking about guns.

(voice-over): In much of Pennsylvania, guns are part of the culture, prized in some corners, scorned in others. This is the Mount Joy Sportsman Association, established 1933, 850 members. They have skeet shooting here every Tuesday night. Just up the road is the local gun shop, where we ran into a man and his 1-year-old son. They're going turkey hunting together when the season starts.

JIM MOORE, PENNSYLVANIA HUNTER: Ever since I was in diapers, my dad, he carried me in one arm and the gun in the other.

JOHNS: In past elections, generally, guns and the right to bear firearms have played a big role in Pennsylvania, where hundreds of thousands of prized hunting licenses get issued every year. There's also the flip side in the cities, especially here in Philadelphia, where guns are too often used in crimes. That scorn of guns leads to calls for more gun control. But, in spite of all this, guns as a political issue is only now gaining strength.

OBAMA: It may be that I chose my words badly. It's not the first time. It won't be the last.

JOHNS: But with Barack Obama's off-key remarks about gun owners and Hillary Clinton's attempts to position herself as a true-blue friend of the Second Amendment, the issue is now suddenly in play. But, after all the political noise lifts, the truth is, it's hard to tell the candidates apart on guns.

TERRY MADONNA, POLLSTER: Welcome to the real world. I mean, this is a campaign oddly enough in which the issue differences between the two of them are so minute, that they have to exaggerate what differences exist.

JOHNS: As far as the National Rifle Association is concerned, the difference is not minute. It's simply nonexistent.

WAYNE LAPIERRE, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION: They say they're pro-Second Amendment, and yet when they get back to Washington, they do everything they can to destroy the Second Amendment.

JOHNS: In Pennsylvania, they haven't been able to move a substantiative gun control measure through the legislature in years. And, yet, in Washington, both Obama and Clinton have repeatedly supported gun control.

So, as Obama's gun gap and Clinton's pounce to exploit it still resonate, one of the managers of the gun shop back in rural Pennsylvania says it's amusing these Democrats would even try to convince gun owners they're still strong supporters.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Joe Johns back with me now.

And, Joe, I have got to ask you, do you think Democrats are helping themselves at all even having this conversation?

JOHNS: Well, from the people I talked to today, not a scientific sample, no, they don't seem to have done themselves really any favors at all, at least so far.

But the bottom line, of course, is, what are the voters going to base their decisions on? There are big issues out there, Campbell, like the war, of course, the economy. Historically, though, we all know that issues like guns have really caused problems for Democrats in elections. That's sort of the bottom line.

BROWN: All right. Joe Johns -- thanks, Joe. Hillary Clinton raised a lot of eyebrows by talking about her experience with guns. So did Barack Obama's response. Did you hear this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My dad took me up behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl. You know, some people have continued to teach their children and their grandchildren. It's part of a culture. It's part of a way of life.

OBAMA: She's running around talking about how this is an insult to sportsmen, how she values the Second Amendment. She's talking like she's Annie Oakley.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I am going to ask our panel if that will help either one of them connect with Pennsylvania hunters and NRA members.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In most of Pennsylvania, guns mean hunting. But in the big cities, they too often mean murder.

So, what is the right message for presidential candidates in a state that bristles at gun control, but which is also seeing near- record gun violence in its big cities?

Let's ask President Bush's former speechwriter Mike Gerson, CNN contributor Roland Martin, and senior political correspondent Candy Crowley.

And, Mike, Hillary Clinton has been casting herself as a hunting enthusiast. She talked about this weekend. And this sound is just too good, so we're going play it again. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: My dad took me up behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl. You know, some people have continued to teach their children and their grandchildren. It's part of a culture. It's part of a way of life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Mike, this is someone what ran for the Senate on a platform of gun control. I mean, are hunters obviously in any way going to see her as one of their own? GERSON: No, I actually think it's more than a little bit of a stretch to see Hillary Clinton as a lunch pail populist, going out hunting.

But the reality here, though, is she's trying to take advantage of a gaffe, which is, you know, do people really turn to guns in bad economic times? That was one of Barack Obama's claims. It's an odd claim. It's an elitist claim. And she's trying to take advantage of it. I'm -- I'm not sure she will be able to, given -- I watched her speech today to the editors.

She's more of a policy wonk than a populist. She's very good on policy issues, but it's going to be hard for her to position herself as a kind of Pennsylvania populist.

BROWN: And, Candy, you know her as a candidate. When she does something like this and tries to sort of take on this mantle of "I'm a hunter," does it sort of underscore this feeling that some people have about her that's inauthenticity, I guess, is a fair word?

CROWLEY: Well, look, I think so far as Hillary Clinton is concerned, that when you are talking about people who feel one way or the other, everything that she does just solidifies that.

I think, you know, it's absolutely correct that this was less about cozying up to hunters than about saying, I understand your culture, as opposed to Barack Obama, who, just a day ago, said the following.

So, I think this is less about, come on, hunters, vote for me, than it is to say, I get your culture out there in rural Pennsylvania.

BROWN: And, Roland, we found a pretty interesting statistic that I want to throw at you, that support for stricter gun control has actually dropped significantly since 1990.

Then, you had about 78 percent of voters who wanted stricter laws. In a 2006 poll, that's down to 56 percent. Do you think the Democrats are in a bit of a bind here, because public opinion is swinging sort of against the party platform?

MARTIN: No, I don't think they're in a bind. The bottom line is, it can roll both ways.

And, so, frankly, you can talk about authentic, was she stretching? Where I come from, we call it fake, this whole notion of, I'm appealing to you as a hunter.

Then, of course, when she was asked, the last time you fired a gun, she said, oh, that's not really important.

Look, you can have the conversation. Look, I support the Second Amendment, Campbell. That is the right to bear arms. But I don't own a gun. I don't want to own a gun. I don't care. So, you can say, look, I understand that, in your part of the country, who you are, as a culture, this is what you do, that's fine. But there are places in America -- I deal with kids every day in Chicago getting shot and killed because of nonsense. There are people there who are against guns. They see that as the deaths that are going on all across the country. So, we can have a dual conversation.

The problem with the gun dialogue has to be either/or. Either you're for it or you're against it. You can have and/or.

BROWN: All right. A good place to end.

Roland, Michael, Candy, thanks to all of you. Appreciate it.

Which candidate has the upper hand in the "bitter" squabble? And who is winning over Pennsylvania's all-important blue collar voters? In a moment, we're going to visit the "War Room" to see what our seasoned strategists say Clinton and Obama need to do to win.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Time now for the "War Room." Our nightly look at the campaign strategies and how the campaigns are adjusting to try to crush each other. Hillary Clinton was quick to capitalize on Barack Obama's Pennsylvania remarks, calling him condescending. But now, Obama is fighting back, trying to spin the "bitter" fallout into a positive.

In the "War Room" tonight, Republican strategist Rick Wilson who's joining us from Burlington, Vermont, and Democratic strategist Steve McMahon, who's down in Washington.

Welcome, guys.

STEVE MCMAHON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thank you.

BROWN: Rick, let me start with you. So Hillary Clinton is looking at the polls today. She sees Obama's guns and religion comments at least don't seem to be hurting him yet. What's her next move with all eyes on Pennsylvania, a week to keep this thing going?

RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, look, if you're Mrs. Clinton, you're in a situation right now where you finally have something that's put a hole in Barack's campaign, for once. He seemed impervious to a lot of her attacks going for months and months and months. She's finally got something that came out of his own lips that has really hurt him.

And while the polling is going to be a lagging indicator on this, I think a lot of rural Pennsylvanians are going to see Mrs. Clinton's position on this thing. They're going to say, look, this is a guy who is very comfortable bashing our type of people when he's in the elite salons of the blue state enclaves on the West and the East Coast. And he's not the kind of person that really respects their culture and respects their values and respects the kind of people they are.

BROWN: And she's already doing that. Steve, here's how Obama is firing back. Let's listen to his new ad. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP OBAMA CAMPAIGN AD)

CLINTON: Many of you, like me, were disappointed by recent remarks that he made. And --

NARRATOR: There's a reason people are rejecting Hillary Clinton's attacks, because the same old Washington politics won't lower the price of gas or help our struggling economy. Barack Obama will represent all Americans. He offers a new approach.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When we get past the politics of division and distraction and we start actually focusing on what we have in common, there's nothing we can't accomplish. I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right, Steve, what does he need to do to make sure voters don't hear these words "clinging to guns and religion" anymore? Which surrogate supporters does he have to dispatch to make the sale? Who are they talking to and what are they saying?

MCMAHON: Well, he has to reframe the issue, and I think he's done that pretty effectively with this ad, basically saying that voters are rejecting negative campaigning, which, by the way, 70 percent of voters don't like negative campaigning even though it does work.

WILSON: They don't like it, but it works, Steve.

MCMAHON: Of course, it works. That's why people do it. But nevertheless, he's trying to align himself with something that people want, and it's an aspiration that they want that they don't always get. And it's division and distraction, which is what he said in the ad. And he's trying to make this the same old Washington politics or a verbal gaffe is used to divide and distract from the real issues of concern to Pennsylvania voters.

Now, whether or not it will work remains to be seen. I do think Rick's right about the trailing indicator that we'll see in the polling. But this is the smartest thing he can do right now because he has to reframe or recast this thing.

BROWN: Rick?

WILSON: You know, the absurdity of this is that Barack Obama's whole campaign has been predicated on every slip that Hillary Clinton has made, Barack and his friends in the media have jumped on her like crazy people. And he runs the same game. He's just trying to frame it as Steve said, in a way that says, oh, I'm the candidate of the new, softer, kinder, you know, post-modern campaigning.

And the fact of the matter is, the guy is running just as vicious a campaign as she is. He's just very unhappy that he's been caught short. There's a pattern emerging about this guy, from his association with Reverend Wright, who is, you know -- BROWN: All right. OK.

Steve, you're in the "War Room." You can make that pitch in another segment. This is about strategizing for the candidates. So let me ask you both to comment on what they should be doing now in order to stay in the game.

Bill Clinton out in Pennsylvania today, and he said older voters are too smart to fall for Obama. For better or worse, when Bill Clinton talks, people are listening. If you're running her campaign, Steve McMahon, how would you use him in this final week before Pennsylvania?

MCMAHON: I'd send him to North Carolina. I think Hillary Clinton is actually doing better when Bill Clinton is not out campaigning for her than she is when he is. She's opened a cut. If this were a prize fight, Barack Obama is wandering around the ring with a cut. And she needs to open that cut. She needs to keep pounding on it.

And, by the way, if he emerges from this and she doesn't blow him out in Pennsylvania, then he's going to come out stronger and the Teflon is going to look like it's real. And this is going to look like it was a chink in his armor that didn't penetrate and they are going to be people once again saying, it's time for Hillary Clinton to think about an exit strategy.

BROWN: OK. We're out of time.

WILSON: I hear you, Steve.

BROWN: Rick, you know, I owe you some time. I'll get you on the next round. I promise.

Thanks, guys.

WILSON: Thank you.

BROWN: Appreciate your time tonight.

MCMAHON: Thank you.

BROWN: Just in time for tax day, John McCain has been struggling to show voters he feels their pain on their top concern, anxiety over the economy. Well, today he put his cards on the table, laid out his tax and restructuring plans.

So, we asked his former rival and now his new best friend and political ally, Mitt Romney, whether McCain really gets the numbers. Mitt Romney, is he now running for vice president? We'll have that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We want to go back to our focus on guns and politics. While the candidates haven't been talking very much about gun control, you will be hearing more when the group, Mayors Against Illegal Guns, premiers a new ad featuring all three contenders.

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I'll be on your side for closing the gun show loophole.

OBAMA: Crackdown on them. Close the gun show loopholes.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Convicted felons have been able to buy and sell thousands of guns at gun shows because of a loophole in the law. Close the loophole.

MAYOR SHEILA DIXON (D, BALTIMORE, OBAMA SUPPORTER: All three candidates said they oppose the gun show loophole.

MAYOR JOHN PETON (R), JACKSONVILLE, FL, MCCAIN SUPPORTER: Which allows criminals to buy guns illegally.

MAYOR TOM MENINO (D), BOSTON, CLINTON SUPPORTER: And murder innocent Americans.

MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (I), NEW YORK CITY, UNDECIDED VOTER: So with all the talk of bipartisanship, why can't they work together now to pass it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I spoke earlier with two big city mayors, New York's Michael Bloomberg and cofounder of the group, Mayors Against Illegal Guns, which sponsored the ad, and Newark, New Jersey's, Cory Booker.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Mayor Bloomberg, you're running these ads in the home states of the presidential candidates in Pennsylvania, which holds its primary next week. It seems to me like you think the candidates, all of them, are basically just paying lip service to the issue.

BLOOMBERG: Well, I hope that's not the case, Campbell. What we're trying to do is to get Congress to close a few loopholes in laws that they passed, which keep guns out of the hands of criminals. And everybody says, well, let's wait and see who the new president is. Maybe they'll support it, maybe they won't.

And what we're saying is all three of the major candidates have said they oppose this loophole, that they would want to change it and close it. And so we say to Congress, don't wait another six months while more criminals can get guns. Act now.

BROWN: Mayor Booker, you're a Democrat. In the past couple of days, the candidates have been talking about guns, but they have been talking like Republicans about the virtues of hunting, about the gun culture. And as the mayor of a city that's being plagued by gun violence, what do you make of this? MAYOR CORY BOOKER (D), NEWARK, NEW JERSEY: Well, simply, this is not a right or left issue. It's not about pulling one way or the other. It's really about all of us moving forward. We should not sell guns to criminals. It's as simple as that.

And so, if you close some of the loopholes that have allowed criminals to slip through, grab guns, take them into our communities and kill American citizens, that's not a left/right issue. That's an American issue, something we should all unite behind.

BROWN: And Mayor Booker, the coalition did score a big victory today. This deal with Wal-Mart, which is the nation's largest seller of firearms, which would be, as I understand it, to attract gun sales and then raise a flag when guns bought there are used in any crime. And I know it's just one store, a big store, you know. What's next on your list?

BOOKER: Well, that's an extraordinary victory I think today, and again to the leadership of Mayor Menino and Mayor Bloomberg, by getting the largest, one of the largest companies in America, frankly, globally, to step up and say that this is the right thing to do, it's the moral thing to do, but also it's a good business thing to do because all Americans who enjoy guns, all Americans who buy guns legally have nothing to be concerned about. What we're trying to do is keep them out of the hands of the criminals.

So the next thing on the agenda, there's actually a number of things that we're trying to push for. One is to stop people on the terrorist watch list from getting guns in their hands. Now, that seems to be so obvious. We don't want people who are suspected terrorists or are terrorists themselves to be able to buy guns.

Another one is to make sure that the people selling guns actually have background checks to make sure we don't have criminals that are handling guns and have access to those guns. So we've got a common sense list of things. Probably the biggest is closing this gun show loophole.

BROWN: Mayor Bloomberg, I can't let you go without asking you about politics. Lots of talk about vice president Bloomberg on either party's ticket. Is it something you'd even consider?

BLOOMBERG: I don't think there's any chance, Campbell, of anybody asking me to be their vice president. But let me add something to what Cory said. You talk about Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is the world's biggest employer and America's largest seller of guns. They are very smart. Whether you like them or not, everybody agrees, these people know what they're doing.

And so something's wrong here. Either they really have something here and all of the elected officials are afraid to face the gun issue are wrong, or vice versa, and I know -- everybody I know would bet on Wal-Mart.

BROWN: All right. Mayor Bloomberg and Mayor Booker, appreciate your time tonight. Thanks to you both.

BOOKER: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: John McCain is talking taxes and money, making some pretty bold suggestions. So what does his former rival, Mitt Romney, think about it? Well, he's here next. I'll ask him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" gets underway at the top of the hour.

Larry, what are you working on for tonight?

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Campbell, it's countdown to Pennsylvania. The Democratic candidates are pulling no punches as the primary approaches and they're taking aim at each other again tonight, and we'll cover it top to bottom.

"LARRY KING LIVE" at the top of the hour.

BROWN: OK, Larry, we'll be watching.

Today, John McCain rolled out his most detailed plan to fix the economy and tax system yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: As president, I will propose an alternative tax system, an alternative tax system. When this reform is enacted, all who wish to be under the current system could still do so. And everyone else could choose a vastly less complicated system, with two tax rates and a generous standard deduction, period. Period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: McCain also called for an end to earmarks, summer suspension of the gas tax, and government-backed mortgages. And he doubled the income tax exemption for dependents.

I'm joined now by a former McCain rival who's turned ardent supporter, and I might add, someone who does know his way around economic issues. Governor Mitt Romney, welcome to you, Governor.

MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thanks, Campbell. Good to be with you.

BROWN: You know, McCain has had some trouble speaking about the economy during this campaign. You pointed that out pretty well in an interview with CNN back in January.

Let's listen to what you said about John McCain then.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ROMNEY: He doesn't want to talk about the economy, because frankly, he has pointed out time and again that he doesn't understand how the economy works. And right now, that's the biggest issue that voters here in Florida are concerned about, and they want somebody who does understand the economy. And having him time and again say, I don't understand how the economy works, I've got to get a V.P. that will show me how it works, that's a real problem for him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So Governor, let's be real here. What have you heard in the past two and a half months that makes you think he gets it now?

ROMNEY: Well, first of all, let's compare him with Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, who really don't get it at all, who have virtually no experience in the arena and they're following the same old course that we've seen in Washington for years, which is promise new programs and new spending, raise taxes to pay for those things. We want change in Washington.

John McCain represents that kind of change. He's saying, let's turn Washington on its head. Let's say, we're not going to keep on growing spending. He actually freezes spending on discretionary non- military accounts, and then he says we're going to lower taxes for the American people and let the American people help rebuild our economy.

It's a very different approach and it's one that's been proven time and again in our nation's history with someone like Ronald Reagan at the helm. That's what he did. And Senator McCain is proving that the conservative philosophy he believes in could be transcended into the economy, and he's today put forth a very bold program to do exactly what the economy needs.

BROWN: But talking about the economy has been a real struggle for him. It's been more than a year since he announced his candidacy. Why has it taken him so long to find his voice on this?

ROMNEY: Well, he has spoken over the last year on a number of economic topics. During the primary campaign, he talked about maintaining the Bush tax cuts.

He spoke also about getting rid of the alternative minimum tax and lowering the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent. So, he's brought proposals out over time, but today he wrapped all those proposals together and combined it with some pretty bold thinking with regards to throwing out for people who'd like to, the old tax system, and putting in place a far simpler system, which allows people to have a large standard deduction and two tax rates instead of the multiple rates we have now.

So he's taking a new step and one which is, I think, exactly what the economy demands at a time like this, when we're seeing a slowdown, potentially jobs leave. He's saying, look, we're going to create more incentives for employers to build factories, to invest in R&D, and to hire people. And that's what people want to hear right now. That's what America needs. BROWN: Governor, let me ask you about the Democrats. In the last few days, both Hillary Clinton and John McCain have called Barack Obama an elitist. And you are all multimillionaires. Is it really fair to be pointing fingers?

ROMNEY: Well, you know, I heard Senator McCain on this topic today, and he said that he couldn't tell whether Barack Obama would be an elitist or not, but he said what he said was an elitist statement. And that, I think, is absolutely accurate. He showed a disdain for people who have values that are different than his own. And that's something which I think will ring true in peoples' ears that have been watching this race.

I'm frankly glad you're seeing the Democrats have a good, long primary so that we get a chance to know Barack Obama better. We've known Hillary Clinton for some time, but Barack Obama's been kind of an unknown commodity, and now we're getting a better sense of who the man is.

BROWN: All right.

Governor, I need to stop you for a second, because there's one question we've got to ask: Despite all that happened in the primaries, would you join the ticket if John McCain asked?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We are back with former Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney. And we're talking about his relationship with the presumptive nominee, Senator John McCain. And Governor, as we pointed out a little earlier, you and Senator McCain were pretty tough on each other during the primaries.

Do you want to be John McCain's vice president? And do you think you have a realistic chance of getting the job?

ROMNEY: I think it's very unlikely that I'll be John McCain's running mate. He's a fine person. We get along very well.

He was generous enough to campaign for me back in 1994 when I ran against Ted Kennedy. He's campaigned for me more than once. We've enjoyed each other's company.

I'm helping him on his campaign, but this year for me is about helping him win the presidency. He's got a lot of great people to choose from. I'm sure he'll do a fine job in doing just that.

BROWN: But why do you think it's unlikely that you would be chosen?

ROMNEY: There are so many good folks that are out there, and the other folks haven't been rivals in the presidential sweepstakes, and he's going to make a very careful assessment of who the individual might be that could strengthen his ticket and make sure that he has an individual who could be president of the United States, if that were called for. So, I just think that I'm focused not on the V.P. sweepstakes these days, but instead on electing Republican Senator McCain, as well as other senators and congressmen across the country.

BROWN: Now that McCain is in fact the party's de facto nominee, you know, one might expect to see the conservative wing of the party rallying around him, but that really hasn't happened yet with conservatives. Why do you think that is?

ROMNEY: Well, I think this season has given the members of our party a chance to really get to know Senator McCain and to understand his values and beliefs. I think as they heard what he had to say about the economy today, they had to say, gosh, that's a very strong prescription which comes right out of conservative philosophy, holding back the growth of government, freezing government spending in key accounts, and reducing taxes to grow the economy and ultimately balance the payments that are coming out of Washington with the revenues coming in.

And so, I think they have to hear Senator McCain on issue after issue. And as they do so, they're going to say, you know what, this man is to his core a conservative. Not on every single issue, but on the issues that are the most important, that most of us agree upon.

BROWN: All right. Well, Governor Mitt Romney, appreciate your time as always. Thanks for joining us tonight.

ROMNEY: Thanks, Campbell. Good to be with you.

BROWN: For better or worse, there seems to be such a rush to define the real Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and John McCain. But we think instead of depending on campaign ads to make up your mind, you deserve the facts.

So CNN is profiling all three candidates. Tonight on "ANDERSON COOPER 360," Barack Obama, from young under achiever, to the candidate you see today. "In Search of Obama," that's tonight at "360" 10:00 Eastern.

We're going to look at a new battle raging in the Texas polygamy scandal. Mothers are pleading to be reunited with their children and telling harrowing stories of the raid that separated them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In all, more than 400 children now in state custody. And today, officials defended the decision to separate them from their mothers. That's all the update on the polygamy story.

CNN's David Mattingly is live outside the ranch in Eldorado, Texas.

David, the women were returned to the ranch and they've got a very different story than what we've been hearing from Texas state officials. What is each side saying? DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, the two sides couldn't be further apart with their stories. We're hearing from the state, and it's all laid out in black and white in court documents. Based on a phone call alleging abuse, based on confidential informants, based on what they saw when they raided this compound, the state believes that it's a common practice within this compound for teenage girls as young as 13 or 14 to be married to adult men. Some men, possibly middle age.

Now, what we're hearing inside the compound from these mothers is that none of that is true and that the original call that came in is possibly a hoax. So very far apart on these stories, Campbell.

BROWN: All right, David Mattingly. Thanks, David.

Larry King's going to have a lot more on this story coming up.

That's it for us. Larry King now.

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