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Nancy Grace
Haleigh`s Brother Says Man in Black Took his Sister
Aired February 23, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Satsuma, Florida, a 5-year- old little girl tucked into bed, five hours later, she`s gone, vanished into thin air, the back door propped wide open. The father comes home from the night shift to find not a single trace of little Haleigh.
Bombshell tonight. Can Haleigh`s little 4-year-old brother identify the kidnapper? The little boy in the room, sleeping ostensibly with his sister snatched out of her bed, the 4-year-old little boy describing a grown man taking little Haleigh in the middle of the night, dressed entirely in black.
In the last hours, the fiance of Haleigh`s mother taken in an unmarked police car for questioning, as Haleigh`s father, distraught, meets with lead investigators. FBI and police initially zero in on a local sex offender and girlfriend Misty Croslin`s cousin. But tonight, police clearing both in Haleigh`s disappearance.
What more have cops learned from a mystery vehicle seized for evidence? Investigators still refusing to reveal make, model, ownership, as searchers on horseback comb dense woods near Haleigh`s home again tonight. Where is 5-year-old Haleigh?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of 5-year-old Florida girl Haleigh Cummings, who police believe was kidnapped from her own bed in the middle of the night. Haleigh`s mother, Crystal Sheffield, says Haleigh`s 4-year-old brother told her that a man dressed all in black took little Haleigh. Sheffield says a team of investigators have interviewed the boy, but they refuse to comment on what he has told them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say new leads continue to come in, but so far, nothing`s panned out. Haleigh`s grandmother, Teresa Neves, says it`s frustrating, but they`re not giving up hope.
TERESA NEVES, PATERNAL GRANDMOTHER: I feel like my grandbaby is alive. I pray God whoever has her is feeding her and taking care of her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Volunteers were out on horseback over the weekend, looking through areas around the home where Haleigh was last seen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far, there have been 4,786 man-hours that have been put into ground searches and diving in the water and air searches.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family holding out hope little Haleigh will be returned to them safely, staying in tents near the home, refusing to leave until their child is brought back to them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will never give up looking for my granddaughter. She`s out there somewhere.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators maintain that everyone remains a suspect, as the reward for Haleigh`s recovery continues to climb, now at $20,000.
RONALD CUMMINGS, FATHER: I would like to tell my daughter, if she`s watching, baby, I love you and we will find you. I love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And breaking news in the case of girl-next-door co-ed and Capitol Hill intern 24-year-old Chandra Levy. Levy disappears without a trace after leaving her D.C. apartment in jogging clothes. Almost immediately, police uncover a sex affair between Levy and then Modesto congressman Gary Condit, Condit married with grown children. One year later, Chandra`s remains discovered at nearby Rock Creek Park. But eight years pass, no arrest, no suspect, no justice. Tonight, major development, police set to finally announce an arrest in the murder of Chandra Levy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eight years after her death, police are planning an arrest in the killing of Washington federal intern Chandra Levy. CNN has learned the suspect is Ingmar Guandique. He is serving a 10-year sentence for two assaults in the same park where Levy`s remains were found a year after she disappeared. Her parents say news of an arrest is bittersweet.
ROBERT LEVY, CHANDRA`S FATHER: Can`t say who it is right now. We have an idea, of course, but you know, it`s not official, so can`t really say. We just hope we`ll get justice and -- but can`t say we`ll really feel better because, you know, it won`t bring Chandra back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Levy`s case got national attention after her affair with California congressman Gary Condit was disclosed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I`m going to work hard the remaining time that I have there and do everything that I can do to make the valley a better place to be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After almost eight years of waiting, an arrest can`t come soon enough for the Levy family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Levy`s parents say they received a call from police telling them a warrant will come soon.
SUSAN LEVY, CHANDRA`S MOTHER: They said there is going to be a warrant out for an arrest, that, We have come up with some positive evidence that will lead to arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Learning about the planned arrest doesn`t make up for the family`s loss.
SUSAN LEVY: There`s no such thing as closure.
ROBERT LEVY: You just don`t forget about it. You have to go through the rest of your life with a hole in it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Can Haleigh`s little 4-year-old brother identify his sister`s kidnapper?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the investigation into what happened to 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings, who was abducted from her own bed. According to Haleigh`s mother, Crystal Sheffield, Haleigh`s 4-year- old brother saw who took Haleigh.
CRYSTAL SHEFFIELD, MOTHER: When I seen him on my visitation, all he said was, I want to find my sissy, and he said something about somebody in black took her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Crystal Sheffield says Ronald, Jr., was questioned immediately by a team of people who deal with children. But as with a lot of other potential evidence, police will not comment on specifics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we`re concerned with is the life of this child and what we`re concerned with is the recovery of this child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities are looking through 1,600 tips as part of their investigation into what happened to 5-year-old Florida girl Haleigh Cummings. On day 14 of their investigation, law enforcement officials say everyone remains a suspect and they will continue to pursue leads until Haleigh is found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every lead that comes in, that`s what we`re pushing and that`s what we`re trying to get resolved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say they will be conducting tactical searches based on tips and any evidence that comes in, while the family remains in tents, praying for Haleigh`s safe recovery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our main focus is finding Haleigh Cummings and getting her home to her family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t wait just to touch her, just to hold her in my arms. I can`t wait until she`s home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Marlaina Schiavo, our producer standing by at the Sheffield family tent there in Satsuma. Marlaina, what`s the latest?
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the latest, Nancy, is that Haleigh`s 4-year-old brother identified the man he saw who took Haleigh who came into the home that night. He told his step-grandmother, Connie (ph) Sheffield, that a man dressed in black took his sister, Haleigh, the night she went missing. He had no other description, and they didn`t push the little boy because special investigators were called in to talk to him the night that Haleigh went missing.
GRACE: To T.J. Hart, program news director at WSKY 97.3 FM. T.J. what more can you tell me? It`s my understanding that the little boy also revealed the same story to his biological mother.
T.J. HART, WSKY 93.7 FM: Yes, that`s the story that we`ve been pursuing today, as well. She said that a man dressed in black got into the home and took Haleigh, and he says, I miss my sissy. And you know -- and right now, you hear those words, it`s -- my God, where do you go from here? And of course, where they went from there is that the child has been interviewed by a team of people who deal specifically with children in situations similar to this.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. And remember, if you think back to cases such as the Elizabeth Smart case -- recall in that case, the little sister -- took her several months, but she ultimately identified Brian David Mitchell, joined that night, we understand, by his nutcase wife, Wanda Barzee, as coming into the home. It took her a while. She was just a little girl, around 4 years old at the time, as I recall. She kind of described the guy that night, and several months later, she put two and two together, and it was thanks to her that Elizabeth Smart`s attacker was finally, ultimately identified.
I want to go out to your calls. To Dominique in Ohio. Hi, Dominique.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. Good evening.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m just very curious. Have they thoroughly checked out the father as to what time he gets to work, when he leaves, how far it is from the house, did he take a lunch break, you know, that sort of thing, because I still lean...
GRACE: Excellent question, Dominique, because as you and I both know, you always look in the circle right around the victim -- fathers, brothers. In grown women missing or murdered, you look for lovers, boyfriends, husbands, exes.
Out to T.J. Hart with WSKY 97.3. T.J., it`s my understanding his story has checked out. What do you know?
HART: That is absolutely correct. Law enforcement has verified that he was where he said he was, which was at work. And work has confirmed that, too. Everything has checked out.
GRACE: To Crystal Sheffield, special guest joining us there at the Sheffield family tent in Satsuma. Everyone, the family forced to live in tents right now. They have nowhere else to go. The home is still quarantined. It is cordoned off as a crime scene. Ms. Sheffield, thank you for being with us. I understand your 4-year-old little boy identifies or at least has a description of his sister`s kidnapper?
CRYSTAL SHEFFIELD, HALEIGH`S MOTHER: Yes. He -- when I got him for my visitation, the first thing he said to me was, Mommy, I want to find my sissy. And he -- I didn`t question him about none of it. And he was, like, Somebody come in, they was all dressed in black, and took my sissy.
GRACE: Did he say anything else identifying the man, anything at all, any characteristics?
SHEFFIELD: No. He just said that they was dressed in black or he was dressed in black, whoever it was.
GRACE: Did he describe in any way what happened? He opened the door and came in, or the little boy woke up and saw him there? Did he describe anything at all about what the man actually did?
SHEFFIELD: No. He just said a man dressed in black come in and took his sissy. I didn`t ask him any questions.
GRACE: Smart. Very, very smart, Ms. Sheffield. Now, Ms. Sheffield, I know this sounds crazy, but to the best of your recollection, what were his exact words?
SHEFFIELD: He said, Mommy, I want to find my sissy and some man in black come in and took her.
GRACE: Out to the lines. To Angie in Kentucky. Hi, Angie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. My husband and I watch you every day, and...
GRACE: Angie in Kentucky, thank you for watching. And if you`re like me, I know that you`re praying and hoping for the best for this little girl. Go ahead, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The thing I`ve been listening to a lot on Jane Velez-Mitchell and Mike during the day is I keep hearing how the mother keeps talking about the bad things about the dad.
GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear what you just said. The mother keeps talking about what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She keeps bringing up all the bad things in the past about the father. And to me, that should be -- that shouldn`t even matter right now. Her main focus should be on finding...
GRACE: OK. And your question, Angie, is?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is, has she taken a lie detector test? Have they done one on her?
GRACE: Well, I will ask her right now. Ms. Sheffield, have you taken a lie detector test?
SHEFFIELD: I sure have.
GRACE: And did you pass it?
SHEFFIELD: As far as I know. The man that did it told me he thinks I did, but they had to send it off to Washington to...
GRACE: And did you do it voluntarily? Did you protest or did you go...
SHEFFIELD: Yes, I did.
GRACE: Everyone, Crystal Sheffield announcing tonight she has taken and passed a lie detector test. We are taking your calls live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say new leads continue to come in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve processed over 1,600 leads to this point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But so far, nothing`s panned out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not any closer to knowing where she is at the moment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Haleigh`s grandmother, Teresa Neves, says it`s frustrating, but they`re not giving up hope.
NEVES: We will never give up looking for my granddaughter. She`s out there somewhere.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will not give up hope and we will not stop praying until Haleigh is found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say, like the family, they`re also frustrated, but they`re not discouraged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somewhere along the line is going to be the tip that leads us to her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`ll continue to search and follow up on new leads until the little girl is found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sooner or later, we`re going to find her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK, was your back door locked, do you know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. The back door always stays locked.
CUMMINGS: I need somebody (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK, let me speak to (INAUDIBLE)
CUMMINGS: I just got home from work, my 5-year-old daughter is gone. I need somebody to be here now, I`m telling you.
911 OPERATOR: Listen to me. Listen to me. We`ve got two officers...
CUMMINGS: If I find whoever has my daughter before y`all do, I`m killing him. I don`t care. I`ll spend the rest of my life in prison, I`m telling you. You can put it on the report, and I don`t care.
911 OPERATOR: OK. It`s OK, sir. We`ve got them on the way. OK, can you give me any -- what kind of description of her pajamas that she was wearing?
CUMMINGS: I don`t (DELETED) know! I was at work!
911 OPERATOR: OK, sir, we`ve got them coming, OK?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Where is 5-year-old Haleigh? Straight out to Marie Griffis, maternal grandmother of Haleigh. Everyone, we are taking your calls live. Crystal Sheffield, Haleigh`s biological mother, announcing she has willingly taken a polygraph and was told that she passed.
To Marie Griffis, the grandmother -- Ms. Griffis, thank you for being with us. To your understanding, has the little boy told other people about the description of the kidnapper?
MARIE GRIFFIS, MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER: Not that I know of. Just Connie and Crystal.
GRACE: And was his story consistent?
GRIFFIS: Yes. From what Connie told me, he talked about a man dressed in black, and then Crystal said the same thing.
GRACE: To a special guest joining us tonight, crime analyst and director of cold case squad at Pine Lake PD, Sheryl McCollum. Sheryl, weigh in.
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, DIR. OF COLD CASE SQUAD, PINE LAKE PD: Nancy, one thing that bothers me is who takes a child not for ransom? It`s going to be a sexual predator. And if I remember correctly, there are 44 sexual predators within a five-mile radius.
GRACE: A sex predator or someone that has been targeting the family. You can`t count that out, of course. As you know, the girl in the pink hat, little Jessie, that was a sex offender that had been targeting her for some time. How do you compare the two, Sheryl?
MCCOLLUM: Well, most sex offenders are going to stay within that area. And you know, the best way to hide is to fit in. And I think here, you`re looking at a very similar situation, where somebody comes in and they take her for one purpose and one purpose only.
GRACE: Joining us tonight, Matt Zarrell. Matt, I want to talk to you about the fiance of the mother being taken in for questioning today. He was not arrested, correct?
MATTHEW ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER: No, he wasn`t. It was Chad Griffis. He`s Haleigh`s mother`s fiance. Now, he was brought in for questioning. Now, this is not the first time he`s been brought in for questioning. He was brought in a couple of weeks ago and asked when the last time he saw Haleigh was, and he said a couple weeks before she went missing.
GRACE: To Crystal Sheffield, Haleigh`s mom. Why was he taken in again, Crystal?
SHEFFIELD: To be -- I think it was something Ronald had said to him.
GRACE: About?
SHEFFIELD: Oh, what was it...
GRIFFIS: It was actually a misunderstanding.
SHEFFIELD: It was a misunderstanding between -- it was told to my brother that Ronald said he was 75 percent sure he knew who took Haleigh. And they misunderstood it and took Chad in instead of my brother.
GRACE: I understand. So to Marie Griffis, what was the outcome of that?
GRIFFIS: I have no idea. The last we heard, the officer was going over to my son`s house to talk to him about what Ronald had told him. And Ronald`s not -- I mean, Marcus (ph) is not the only person that Ronald had this story to. We have a lady that stays up here at our tent. She`s from Pensacola, Florida. She come here when she heard this on the radio. They come straight to here to be with us. We don`t know these people. We just met them. Her name is Teresa (ph). And she went down the day she got here, which was Thursday, to Ronald`s tent. And she was off to the side talking to him, and he told her that he was 75 percent sure he knew that Misty`s cousin, Joe, took Haleigh. So the stories kind of match.
GRACE: Yes. Long story short tonight, we know that that cousin has been cleared, along with a local sex offender that was questioned several times after he broke curfew that evening.
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of New York, family law and child advocate Susan Moss, out of San Francisco, famed attorney John Burris, and out of the Seattle jurisdiction, high-profile lawyer Anne Bremner. Sue Moss, what do you think?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Man in black. Unless this child was kidnapped by a ninja, this is a huge clue. That means somebody planned this. They planned and they got dressed in black. That means they were probably scouting out this trailer park, and maybe, just maybe somebody saw him.
GRACE: John Burris?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that part is correct. But the other side of this, how did he get into the house? And that`s the part that is most troubling. It`s hard -- the young girl said the door was locked. So that means not only was there planning, but there has to be some complicity somewhere here, so there are a lot of clues still around...
GRACE: Anne Bremner, Burris -- there he goes with the conspiracy theory. Weigh in, Bremner.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I -- you know, I -- but I agree. I mean, everyone right now is a suspect...
GRACE: Complicity? Why is everybody trying to blame the 17-year-old, like she`s so sophisticated she could fake out the cops for this long?
BREMNER: Nancy, all I`m saying right now is that everybody`s a suspect and nobody`s a suspect.
GRACE: OK, well...
BREMNER: It`s wide open.
GRACE: ... before we start trying to blame the family, let`s take a look at what we`ve already got. They`ve taken polygraphs. They`ve been cooperative. They`ve done everything the police asked them. They`re living in tents, all right?
Everybody, you are seeing photos of little Haleigh right now. The tip line is 888-277-TIPS.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m trying to do everything to find her. You know, I`ll answer any questions I have to because I know I didn`t do anything to that little girl. I would never hurt her. I mean, they love me. I mean, they look at me like their mom, you know? You ask little Junior, he`ll tell you. You know, they talk about me, about being I`m so good to them kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, there`s the lady that everybody keeps saying is faking out the cops and taking lie detectors, cooperating all along. You really think a 17-year-old girl can fake out the entire police squad? I don`t think so. Maybe I`m the crazy one tonight.
To Pat in Ohio. Hi, Pat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been trying to get ahold of you for six months. Your kids are so darn cute!
GRACE: You know what? I am blessed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you...
GRACE: I am blessed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love the twins. And you know what? You`re such a wonderful advocate for children. The only thing I haven`t heard mentioned in this whole case -- how come nobody talks about Misty`s mother or family? It`s never seemed to be mentioned.
GRACE: Interesting question. Let`s go to T.J. Hart with WSKY. What about them? Now, we know about the cousin that was in town and mysteriously disappeared when she goes missing, but he`s been cleared.
HART: That`s true. The cousin, Joe, as he was somewhat identified as, has been cleared as of Saturday afternoon at about 3:05, when Captain Dick Shuller (ph) said, No, he`s no longer a person of interest, he`s not a suspect. They cleared him, actually, early on in the investigation.
Misty Croslin, of course, has been the focus -- a great deal of focus has been placed on her with some alleged inconsistencies with her stories. But as far as Ms. Croslin`s mom, to be quite honest with you, I`ve not met her yet. That`s one of the few people I`ve failed to walk into after being in the area for the amount of time that I have.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still very few answers for police and the family of Haleigh Cummings. But there`s some new information on several fronts. One of them involving Haleigh`s little brother, 4-year-old Ronald Jr. Today his and Haleigh`s mother, Crystal Sheffield, said the boy stole her something rather astonishing, that a man in black came and took his sister.
CRYSTAL SHEFFIELD, MOM OF MISSING 5-YR-OLD HALEIGH CUMMINGS: When I seen him on my visitation all he said was I want to find my sissy and he said something about somebody in black took her. He said he was all dressed in black. But I didn`t question him. I`m not going to question him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Crystal Sheffield says Ronald Jr. was questioned immediately by a team of people who deal with children. That is with a lot of other potential evidence police will not comment on specifics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we`re concerned with is the life of this child and what we`re concerned with is the recovery of this child. And we`re going to do anything we can to recover her. We don`t want to give out any information that`s going to jeopardize that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 1120 to 1271.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead, Sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay at the residence. Maintain that point of access, (INAUDIBLE) canines and do another thorough search from inside the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a 10-4.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 10-4 1054.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 10-4 I`m back on Green Lane.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 10-4 Go ahead and just gather as much information as you can about any family or anything around here and go ahead and call in her and get a signal and report her as 8.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has already been done, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You start taking tags and stopping vehicles that leaving for this area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We find out that another search on horseback goes down in the densely wooded area behind the Cummings home.
To Matt Zarrell, that search has already been done several times. Why do they keep going back to this area?
MATTHEW ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE ASSOCIATE PRODUCER: Well, at this point we know that the searchers continue to look in all the areas because they don`t have any leads at this point. The cops are sharing some information with them that we know of, but at this point searchers are going on just instincts and reaction at this point.
GRACE: To Marlaina Schiavo, standing by there at the Sheffield family tent in Satsuma, Florida. You had the opportunity to interview the babysitter/girlfriend Misty Croslin today. And yes, she`s got some strikes against her. Last one to see the victim. Inconsistencies in her story.
On the other hand, she has fully cooperated with police. What is she telling you?
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, SPENT TIME WITH HALEIGH`S FAMILY TODAY: Misty -- I mean, you have to remember she`s 17 years old. She loves those children. She says she has nothing to hide. She has passed many polygraph tests. She -- her family is very supportive of her. Their family home is right across from the father`s side -- the paternal side`s tent.
Misty, basically, said that she had nothing to hide, she loves those children, she would never do anything to them. The media is vilifying her at this point and so is the general public.
GRACE: Well, here`s the thing. Back to you Sheryl McCollum. In other cases it`s very apparent when the mother or caregiver is somehow implicated. In this case, yes, she had some inconsistencies in her story, which, in my mind, could be explained through a semantic issue and the wording of her answers.
Yes, there are a few problems. But it`s hard for me to believe that a 17-year-old girl could fake out the cops for this long. And what about the little 4-year-old? Wouldn`t he say Misty took my sister?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. OF COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE P.D.: Sure, he would. He would not only say Misty took my sister. He would be very clear if she kicked her, hit her, took her out of the house, whatever. He would know that. He would be able to tell that beautifully.
GRACE: What about it, John Burris.
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think that we`re going to say that she is the one that took the child. The question is, did she have -- was it a complicity situation with the man in black? I mean I don`t think we will say ever that she is the one who did it. I mean the question that you have here is how could it be.
GRACE: Well, John Burris.
BURRIS: No, let try to (INAUDIBLE) to a point.
GRACE: Come on. No, no, no.
BURRIS: How could it be, though?
GRACE: That`s the same thing. Party to a crime, all for one, one for all. Complicit means you`re just as involved.
BURRIS: Well, obviously. That`s obviously true. I`m just saying how did the person get in? How did that happen? If she says the door is locked.
GRACE: The same burglaries happen every minute in this country. Hello.
BURRIS: Well, that means you`ve got to be stalking this particular person.
GRACE: So?
BURRIS: You`ve got to have some information.
GRACE: Yes?
BURRIS: Maybe you`ve been in the house. Maybe there`s something going on. All I`m saying there has to be a way to get into the house. I`m not saying this girl did anything. You can`t rule it out.
GRACE: It`s called doors and windows. That`s how you get into a house, Burris. And you`re saying I`m not saying she did it but saying she`s complicit.
BURRIS: I`m not finished.
GRACE: . is in reality saying she did it.
BURRIS: I`m just saying she has to be ruled like everyone else. Just because the cops haven`t said certain things doesn`t mean she`s been ruled out.
GRACE: OK.
BURRIS: You know that, too.
GRACE: You know what? Anne Bremner, am I deaf or did he say complicit?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m not going to -- I think there`s his side, your side and the facts.
GRACE: So you`d rather believe him than your own lying ears. OK, whatever.
BREMNER: Well, Nancy, I think the bottom line is.
GRACE: I need the peanut gallery to agree with me.
BREMNER: Nancy, you know.
GRACE: Yes.
BREMNER: . I always agree with you. But the bottom line is, is right now we really have to look at everybody and John is right. Until they`re ruled out you`ve got to look at people, you know.
GRACE: I agree.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Look, I`m not taking her side or against her. I`m on neither side right now, because the evidence is not clear to me, Sue Moss. So she`s neither in nor out.
BREMNER: OK.
GRACE: I just find it hard to believe that a 17-year-old can lead people on a wild goose chase for this long. Plus, the 4-year-old boy is there. Wouldn`t he say Misty did it?
BREMNER: Well, it`s.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Speaking of in and out, I think the only question is did she happen to leave that back door open, whether by accident, whether by going out or for any other reason.
GRACE: To Dr. Janet Taylor, psychologist. Dr. Taylor, back to the Elizabeth Smart case. In that case, the 9-year-old little sister was in the room with Smart when she was kidnapped and, yes, the perpetrator had been at the home before.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: You`re absolutely right. But the difference here in the Smart case she was 9, and this young man is 4 years old. Yes, he`s capable of giving a description. But at 4, you really have to sort out is it fantasy, is it imaginary, did he wake up? Was he dreaming?
And I think it`s interesting that investigators immediately didn`t hear that story. And that would be my only concern. Is this fantasy or is it reality?
GRAPHICS: Well, Doctor, maybe they did and they didn`t reveal it.
To Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health, Johns Hopkins. Dr. Makary, what do you believe, with your experience, about a 4- year-old under these circumstances accurately identifying the kidnapper? I mean Elizabeth Smart`s little sister did it, but she was 9.
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, the vast majority of the time they are forthcoming and honest and truthful. But there is significant psychological trauma from the separation anxiety of losing a sibling. And that can be so severe they can clutter their fears and nightmares with reality sometimes.
GRACE: Now, you know, Dr. Makary, out of all the people I`ve ever put on the stand, some of the best witnesses and the most truthful witnesses I ever had were children, except for one dog. OK. Other than him, children had the least ability to lie under oath.
A question regarding Turner syndrome that Haleigh suffers. Would an abductor be able to care for her with Turner syndrome?
MAKARY: Yes. What we know about her Turner syndrome is that she required special care. She was at risk for infections. And she did have an anxiety about being in the dark. So we know there were special medical concerns related to the Turner syndrome, in part, and probably related to the component of it that your immune system is down and your heart does not pump quite as efficiently with the Turner syndrome.
GRACE: Back to New York psychiatrist, Dr. Janet Taylor, also a medical doctor. Dr. Taylor, earlier a caller was venting regarding the family attacking each other. We`ve got separations. You`ve got fiancees, living girlfriend, the whole kit and caboodle.
But you know what, Dr. Taylor, under these circumstances, you expect for other problems to arise, to boil over.
TAYLOR: Well, absolutely. There was conflict before this happened. There`s going to be conflict during. Everyone is pointing fingers. The whole point now is they need to communicate, communicate together. Now is not the time to blame. They need to band together as one and try to find this little girl.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live.
Has Haleigh`s little 4-year-old brother been able to make an identification as to his sister`s kidnapper? That reward is climbing.
Very quickly to tonight`s case alert, the search for a missing 4-year- old California girl, Monica Morales, kidnapped from her Thousand Palms home by two women posing as social workers, both in their 30s, shoulder length brown hair. Police on the lookout for a green minivan heading toward the Mexican border. 4-year-old Monica last seen in a yellow shirt, blue pants, yellow sandals.
If you have info, call Riverside County Sheriff`s, 760-836-1644.
And the Joan Gaeta Lung Cancer Foundation fights the number one cancer killer in the world. Lung cancer claiming more lives than breast, colon, prostate, melanoma and kidney combined. You don`t have to smoke to get lung cancer.
Joan Gaeta, a mother of five, a beloved wife, a teacher, lost her battle against lung cancer and her family is fighting back. Please go to Joan.org, ForJoan.org.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was a driven, bright-eyed 24-year-old intern, one of thousands who flocked to Washington when semesters changed. A little dazzled by the power of this place, a little giddy with her own sense of possibility.
Chandra Levy came here interning at the Federal Department of Prisons, dreaming of a job with the FBI. When spring arrived, she packed her suitcase for a trip back home to Modesto, California. She never got on the plane.
On May 1st, 2001, Chandra Levy disappeared into thin air.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My precious daughter. I just want her back. I just want her back alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now eight years after the trail seemed to have gone cold, a potential break in the case. A source close to the investigation confirms that the suspect in the Chandra Levy case is Ingmar Guandique. Guandique has denied any involvement in her death.
For Chandra Levy`s parents, who have been told an arrest is imminent, it is a glimmer of hope in the search for justice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s pretty hard not having your child with you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, you want justice. You want the person, you know, incarcerated and you want justice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Finally, a break in the case. An arrest is imminent.
To Lisa DePaulo, investigative reporter, she covered the Levy case from the very, very beginning.
Lisa, what`s happening?
LISA DEPAULO, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, CONTRIBUTOR, THE DAILY BEAST, COVERED LEVY CASE FROM BEGINNING: Well, tight now, there should be an arrest momentarily. I`m told that either tomorrow or Wednesday, the U.S. attorney will be divulging some of what this new evidence was that allowed them to have this warrant and believe they have a solid case.
GRACE: Sari Horowitz also joining us, investigative reporter with "The Washington Post." Sari, what are you hearing?
SARI HOROWITZ, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST, DID 13 PART SERIES ON LEVY CASE: We don`t know what the new evidence is, Nancy, but we spent a year looking at this case and re-examining it and turning over every rock and we interviewed Ingmar Guandique in prison, we interviewed Gary Condit, we interviewed the investigators. And our series concluded that all signs pointed toward Ingmar Guandique as the prime suspect.
GRACE: You know what`s interesting, Sari Horowitz, Lisa DePaulo, is that way back at the get-go, park police -- there had been -- there was Chandra Levy`s death. There were two other female attacks, similar attacks, attempted rapes in the same park. And Guandique was the suspect in those. And he actually made the statement that he saw Chandra Levy in the park the day she was murdered.
Lisa DePaulo, explain to me does two plus two still equal four or do I need to go back to kindergarten?
DEPAULO: Well, I`ve got to tell you that was one of the amazing thing in Sari`s investigation that she found that out. Hello, I mean, he put himself at the scene of the crime. You know and that -- way back when Guandique was always one of those people of interest.
But a lot of the cops did not think the MO was the same. And one of the things that they kept saying was, well, you know, yes, he stole these women`s Walkmen and you know, tormented them a little bit in the park, but he`s not a violent killer. Well, in fact, as Sari found, you know, one of the reasons they didn`t know his MO was the same was because they hadn`t even interviewed all the women he had assaulted.
GRACE: Is that true, Sari?
HOROWITZ: The problem is the U.S. park police interviewed Guandique. They arrested Guandique. The D.C. police were investigating the Chandra Levy case and the two never put the dots together. They never connected the case. And so when we went back, we found that the D.C. police had never interviewed the two women that Guandique attacked. And in fact, when we interviewed them they said they were -- they feared for their life because this man attacked them while they were jogging with Sony Walkman and he.
GRACE: Just like Chandra Levy.
HOROWITZ: Exactly. And he attacked them at knife point. And they fought him off and they were able to escape. One of them had taken a self defense course. They were bigger women than Chandra Levy. And once he was arrested in prison he allegedly told an inmate that, in fact, he killed Chandra Levy. This was in 2001.
And the police gave him a lie detector test not using a bilingual polygrapher. And the test was inconclusive. And they disregarded him. He went off their radar.
GRACE: To Boni Driskill, she is a friend of the Levy family, she is president of Wings of Protection.
Miss Driskill, thank you for being with us. How are the Levys taking this development?
BONI DRISKILL, FRIEND OF LEVY FAMILY, PRESIDENT, WINGS OF PROTECTION: Yes. As with most families that we deal with Wings of Protection, they are absolutely in shock. It`s been eight years. And we`re happy but it`s a bittersweet moment.
GRACE: To Dr. Henry Lee, forensic scientist, who examined the crime scene and Chandra Levy`s remains -- Dr. Lee, thank you for being with us. Reportedly DNA evidence is linking Guandique to Chandra Levy`s murder. What type of evidence could show that connection since we know the remains were skeletonized?
HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, EXAMINED CRIME SCENE & CHANDRA LEVY`S REMAINS: Yes, Nancy, you`re right. The remains was skeletonized. However, the fingernails still there. In addition, her clothing and maybe underwear. So a close examination may resolve some potential biological evidence.
I also look at a long time ago this MO is pretty similar. It`s the same location, same setting, Rocky Creek Park, attacked a woman. And of course the two previous case (sic) when the victim indicates knife was used. That`s a violent action. The second one, because the individual lady have walking dogs and I don`t know the dog play factor on that in this case.
GRACE: Back to Lisa DePaulo, investigative reporter. She covered the Levy case from the very beginning. Did you hear Condit`s response? As usual, it`s still all about him. I say from the get-go, Lisa DePaulo, that he hamstrung so much of the investigation by not being forthcoming with the police at the beginning.
DEPAULO: Well, look, I mean, there were two things he said that were just ridiculous but one was, you know, it was this insatiable -- need for sensationalism that blocked people from finding the real truth. Well, you know, it wasn`t insatiable sensationalism that kept Gary Condit from cooperating with the police weeks and weeks and weeks.
And you know, Susan Levy just wrote this great essay on "Daily Beast" and it said, you know what, he did everything in his power to deter the police investigation. That`s pretty strong stuff. But you remember, you remember that summer.
And the other he said which was ridiculous was, you know, he`s been wanting to tell his side of the story. Hello? Everybody, everybody wanted his side of the story including the police and including the Levys.
So it`s a shame. If he had put it out there, if he had been more cooperative, perhaps they would have moved on to, you know, Guandique or come close to finding her body sooner.
GRACE: You know, Lisa, I know that you`ve stayed in close touch with Levys throughout all of this. Is this a surprise for them?
DEPAULO: Oh, wow. I think it has to be. I mean I think everyone felt, you know, that this might never, ever be solved. And I think, yes, they`re in a state of shock in some ways. And I think that they`re also, you know, it`s really bittersweet.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it`s a shock. (INAUDIBLE) you know, long time, you don`t think about it all the time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Didn`t expect it to happen. And plan to do something else. And all of a sudden you get this call.
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GRACE: Unleash the lawyer, Susan Moss, John Burris, Anne Bremner.
Anne Bremner, he tries to rape two women according to police, and now a third is dead, Chandra Levy. Any chance they`ll seek the death penalty? Probably not.
BREMNER: Probably not, although, as you know, Nancy, that the potentially here is it`s a sexual violence, getting involved with the death and then kidnapping, et cetera, but his best defense is going to be the Gary Condit examination in terms of everyone believing that he did the crime. But probably not. We`ll see. It`s a three strikes in a way with the other two...
GRACE: John Burris?
BREMNER: The other two incidents.
BURRIS: No, I don`t think so. But -- you know.
GRACE: Why, John Burris? Three women victims not enough for you for the death penalty to be sought?
BURRIS: Well, I am not for the death penalty at any point in time. So that`s my view so.
GRACE: Yes, I know. Second verse same as the first. Thank you, John Burris.
Susan Moss, what about it?
MOSS: They`ll probably seek it. But had Gary Condit taken lie detector test, maybe his career wouldn`t in a dead rest.
GRACE: Yes, he even had to give up his Baskin-Robbins. Correct, Lisa DePaulo?
DEPAULO: Apparently revoked his ice cream license. It`s been tough.
GRACE: You know, that karma can really bite you in the neck. And Dr. Henry Lee, could the perp`s DNA still be on her clothing even a year later?
LEE: Yes, if sufficient amount of DNA was to occur and new technology, trace amount of DNA, so-called touch DNA, may be able to find enough evidence. Of course.
GRACE: Right.
LEE: . with some luck, with fingernail, maybe find some additional evidence.
GRACE: And Sheryl McCollum, quickly, yes, no, didn`t he push the other two victims down the ravine as well?
MCCOLLUM: Absolutely. All three went down the ravine.
GRACE: Incredible similarity.
Let`s stop remember, Army Private First Class Leonard Gulczynski, just 19, Carol Stream, Illinois, killed Iraq. From a family of vets. Awarded the National Defense Service Medal. Loved football, volleyball, remembered for his laugh and smile. Leaves behind parents, Mike and Jackie. Sister Jackie, brother, Mike. Girlfriend Michelle.
Leonard Gulczynski, American hero.
Thank you to our guests and especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
