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Joy Behar Page
Kerrigan Family Murder?; Interview with Jenny Sanford; Why Jenny Leaves; Settling for Mr. Mediocre? Anne Hathaway Leaves Catholic Church
Aired February 09, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are suing the publishers of a British tabloid for lying through their teeth and claiming their relationship is on the rocks. Does the beautiful couple want cash, privacy, or maybe just a couple street urchins from Liverpool?
Then boy meets girl, girl marries boy, boy meets soulmate, girl finds a divorce lawyer and a publisher. It`s an old story. Jenny Sanford stops by to explain how she survived scandal and heartbreak.
And is a frog a better catch than a prince? Could you hold out and wait for Johnny Depp or just settle for my cousin Nuncio. The man is shaped like a calzone but, hey, he`s loya.
All this and more, starting now.
Well, we start tonight with breaking news. The death of figure skater Nancy Kerrigan`s father has been ruled a homicide. Kerrigan`s brother, Mark Kerrigan, is currently behind bars accused of assault and battery against the 70-year-old Daniel Kerrigan, but this new ruling may mean he could be charged with murder. The Kerrigan family responded to the medical examiner`s assessment calling it premature and inaccurate.
With me now with the latest is Remi Spencer, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, and Jared Shapiro, executive editor of "Life and Style Weekly", and Lisa Bloom, CNN legal analyst.
Lisa, what`s the latest?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you`re absolutely right, Joy, that the medical examiner has made that ruling. It`s a critical ruling in the case and I think will turn the tide in terms of how this young man will be charged. What the medical examiner is saying that cardiac dysrhythmia (ph), in other words, the heart stopped beating from a heart attack type event occurred after a struggle when Mark Kerrigan`s hands were around the neck of his father, Daniel Kerrigan. In other words, they had this scuffle, he put his hands around his neck and he strangled him and his father died. That sounds like a homicide.
But the family, as you say Joy, is vigorously denying this. They`re saying that the father had a preexisting heart condition and that`s what caused his death.
BEHAR: Right. Well, could it be ruled a homicide then or what? What are they going to say?
BLOOM: Yes. The medical examiner says it`s a homicide. It doesn`t mean the prosecutors necessarily have to say that it`s a homicide. But ordinarily they do. They follow in lock-step with the medical examiner. I would expect homicide charges to be brought against Mark Kerrigan.
Now, it doesn`t necessarily mean murder. It could be involuntary manslaughter. It could be voluntary manslaughter; something less than murder because murder requires an intent to kill. He may say that he and his father were involved in a scuffle but he certainly never intended to kill him.
BEHAR: Well, this is like the Conrad Murray story, involuntary manslaughter.
BLOOM: Exactly.
BEHAR: Same idea. But do you think that the family is in denial or is there truth to what they are saying? That it`s premature?
BLOOM: Well, it certainly would be an awfully strange coincidence, wouldn`t it, joy? If there`s a scuffle, the son puts his hands around the neck of the 70-year-old father, his father falls to the floor and dies shortly thereafter from cardiac dysrhythmia. He just happened to have a heart attack at that moment from a preexisting condition? I think that`s difficult to believe.
BEHAR: Ok, so Jared, if the guy didn`t have a heart condition, he would have been alive?
JARED SHAPIRO, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, LIFE AND STYLE WEEKLY: It seems like it`s possible if it was somebody younger, someone that was more healthy he probably would have been alive. What I find most peculiar about this, the brother has many prior arrests. 1:30 in the morning, he was drunk. I mean --
BEHAR: Intoxicated and combative.
SHAPIRO: I want to know if the Kerrigan family is protecting -- yes.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes. Do you know what the argument was about? Do you?
REMI SPENCER, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think it was something about a telephone call. But you know, as a former prosecutor, I think what we heard from the medical examiner today is really an interesting fact. It may have actually been the cover-up.
The brother said that he put his hands around his father`s neck but he didn`t say that it was hard or is forceful. From what we learned today from the medical examiner is that the marks were very severe and that he was in fact strangling him or at least one can conclude that.
I think Lisa Bloom is actually, you know, right about this. This is very unlikely to be just a coincidence that he had a heart attack while he was having a fight. The strangulation most likely caused the heart attack, which caused the death.
We`ll probably see manslaughter --
BEHAR: Well, even if it wasn`t hard, the stress of your son trying to kill you could give you a heart attack.
SPENCER: Without a doubt.
BEHAR: That alone --
SPENCER: Without a doubt, you`re right.
SHAPIRO: Even if there was a struggle. They said pictures were falling off the wall. There was a broken piece of phone --
BEHAR: The son had previously --
BLOOM: And you add to that --
BEHAR: Go ahead, Lisa.
BLOOM: I was going to say, when you add to that in the law we have the concept you take your victim as you find him. Surely he knew when he`s putting the hands around the neck of a 70-year-old father with pre-existing heart condition that there could be a problem resulting from that, that that could even cause his death in a fragile older gentleman.
That`s exactly what happened and he was aware of the heart condition it sounds like from the family`s statement. That can be used against him by a good prosecutor like Remi Spencer.
BEHAR: Somebody told me that --
SPENCER: Thank you Lisa.
BEHAR: I don`t know if this is possible or true but they said that the boy was jealous of his sister, that she got all the attention in the family, that she was the big star of it and he was a hockey player or something and didn`t get any kind of attention from his father.
SPENCER: You know, that`s not hard to accept. He must have lived in his sister`s shadow for many years. Maybe that`s an explanation for why he`s been in and out of the criminal justice system for years. I don`t think anyone would suggest though it`s an excuse for his criminal behavior. I believe he was just --
BEHAR: Why wouldn`t he try to strangle his sister then? Those -- I`m just asking.
SHAPIRO: He was drunk.
SPENCER: I have a twin brother. I think he would have strangled me before my father.
BLOOM: She wasn`t there -- she wasn`t there at the time.
BEHAR: That`s true. Opportunity did not knock. What would his defense be? He`s pleading not guilty.
BLOOM: Well, I think his defense is going to be a lot of medical evidence and it is a lot like the Dr. Conrad Murray case, isn`t it, Joy? He`s going to say, number one, he never intended to harm, much less kill his father. Perhaps number two, he`ll claim self-defense, that his father was coming after him and he was just reacting. And number three, that medically this is not what caused the death of his father. That it was a heart attack and it simply happened at an inopportune time. So I would expect to see a battle of the experts if this case goes to trial.
BEHAR: This boy also -- he`s not a boy, he`s a grownup, but he had also post-traumatic stress disorder, that might have -- from his time in the army. That might contribute to his drinking and his difficulties in life, this guy, right?
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: That`s why the Kerrigans aren`t even talking yet because they`re trying to figure out what they`re going to say.
BEHAR: Right. But that could be considered mitigating circumstances.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Yes, for sure. We`ll see that. We`ll hear all about it. Sure.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you very much. Thanks, Lisa. Everyone else sit tight. We`ll be back in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie`s perfect noses are seriously out of joint at the moment. The Brangelinas -- as I like to call them -- are suing a British tabloid for printing a story about their relationship being in trouble. I hate to see those two angry. It gives you forehead wrinkles.
I`m back with my panel and joining us is Kelly Cutrone publicist and star of Bravo`s "Kell on Earth". Why are they bothering to sue? Everybody knows the tabloids make up, they say, all sorts of things about people. They said a lot about Brangelina already.
KELLY CUTRONE, PUBLICIST: I think they need to set a tone. I mean as a publicist, I think that they need to show people that they mean business and if people are going to continue to write in this matter about them that they`re going to take them down.
And they haven`t had a shot since they got together. I mean people have been saying this, imagine if you fall in love with somebody and every day you wake up and there`s thousands of people projecting your breakup on to you. I mean it`s just a matter of time --
BEHAR: I know. But if it`s not true, what do you care? If it`s not true, why would you care?
SPENCER: I think you`re right, Joy. I mean I think they`re suing because they can. They have the resources to hire the best legal team to pursue this. I understand their spokesperson came out recently and said that it was because they didn`t get a retraction or an apology from the tabloid and that`s why.
BEHAR: So that`s what they really want?
SPENCER: I believe so. They don`t really have any damages. Someone who is as public as these two are can`t be damaged by more rumors being put out in the press. It happens every day.
SHAPIRO: It`s also a very faceless suit at this point. They`ve gone after a Sunday newspaper in London. After everything that`s been written all over the world, that`s what they choose. They picked this one article that said the Pitts are over -- the split heard around the world. It didn`t end up to be true and now they`re just going after that one place, I think, to make a statement.
BEHAR: Well, it was in all the media.
SHAPIRO: It was picked up everywhere. And by the way, they also made a statement Sunday night at the Super Bowl when they kissed in front of about 100 million everybody.
BEHAR: What`s the statement there?
CUTRONE: No, no, no. Maybe they were just kissing.
SHAPIRO: Two amazing actors --
CUTRONE: They were just two hot people having fun at a football game who wanted to make out. I don`t really think they --
BEHAR: Grow up, Kelly.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: -- publicly act like that in a very long time.
BEHAR: Really, I think that that was to counteract the rumors. Come on, these two are publicity mavens. They know everything about how to get publicity.
CUTRONE: They do, but I don`t think that a kiss means they`re trying to show they`re super happy. I don`t think that they have a chance in hell of staying together; I don`t think the media wants them to. I don`t think they have from day one. And I don`t think they`ll be able to.
BEHAR: You don`t think the media wants them to stay together?
CUTRONE: No.
BEHAR: What does the media have invested in this for them to split up?
CUTRONE: It`s great publicity that the two biggest movie stars in the world in their magazines and helping them sell cover after cover after cover after cover.
BEHAR: But once they split up, then the publicity is over.
CUTRONE: Yes but then he can get back together with Jen and then they can find out who the next new guy is going to be and then the story can continue.
BEHAR: I don`t think he`s ever going to get back to Jen but that`s just me.
What about -- you know, the thing about suing the tabloids, is an interesting idea because I mean, they can say whatever they damn please --
SPENCER: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and mostly people ignore it.
But in three cases Tom Cruise sued them. Nicole Kidman sued them, I guess with Tom, Elton John and Carol Burnett, they all sued and they won.
Now, they had serious accusations against them. Tom Cruise against the rumor that he was gay, I believe. And the same Elton John with some other sort of thing like that. And then Carol Burnett that she was drinking.
SHAPIRO: You know --
BEHAR: No and they won.
SHAPIRO: Its interesting people always say you can say whatever you want. You can`t. If you say something that`s wrong and the celebrity decides to sue you and you lose, then you`re wrong and you have to pay massive amounts of movie.
So I think a lot of the tabloids, especially elsewhere outside of the U.S., don`t -- they weigh what they`re going to do. They figure out well, what`s the risk here. And I think in the case of Brad Pitt and Angelina splitting, it didn`t seem like there was a risk, they`ve never sued anyone --
BEHAR: Yes.
SHAPIRO: -- they`ve never gone after -- they`ve never even publicly really talked about their so-called relationship.
BEHAR: So would you say that people should sue them? As a just you know -- as a rule?
SPENCER: Well, I don`t think people should sue as any kind of general rule. I think that what`s different about the Brangelina lawsuit --
BEHAR: Yes.
SPENCER: -- from the other three you`ve just mentioned is that in the other three, those people were damaged. Accusations about your sexuality, accusations about an addiction --
BEHAR: Alcoholism, yes, which is not true.
SPENCER: -- is quite different --
BEHAR: Yes.
SPENCER: -- and can really harm a person, not just their reputation. From, oh, they separated or maybe they`ve split up. I think that`s the big distinguishing factor here.
BEHAR: Well, so then when you ignore it, doesn`t that mean it`s true? I mean, look at John Edwards, he didn`t sue the Enquirer you`ll notice.
SPENCER: Right, right.
BEHAR: -- because they were right. Thank you very much.
SPENCER: Thank you.
BEHAR: What do you do when your high profile husband cheats on you with his quote unquote "soul mate"? Jenny Sanford to tell me what she did. Next. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: When South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford vanished for four days last year, he led the public and his family to believe he was hiking the Appalachian Trail. When it was discovered that he was actually in South America having an affair with a mistress, Sanford`s wife Jenny told him to take a hike.
Jenny Sanford has written a book about her experience called "Staying True" and she`s here to discuss it. Welcome to the show. Can I call you Jenny?
JENNY SANFORD, AUTHOR, "STAYING TRUE": Yes, please call me Jenny.
BEHAR: Because people have been calling you Mrs. Sanford --
SANFORD: Yes, my friends call me Jenny.
BEHAR: I`m not into that.
SANFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes. So you know, I have to say that I`ve been watching you on other shows and a lot of people are up in arms over the fact that Mark would not put in the fidelity thing --
SANFORD: Right.
BEHAR: -- in the marriage vows. And I -- I was not.
SANFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: I`m one of those people who feels like, hey, who wants it in there because when you`re young and you get married, you`re thinking is this for the rest of my life?
SANFORD: Right, it`s a common thing to think about, right?
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: Right, but the other thing is you know, you have - you have to actually know the guy to see maybe why I just -- I think when anybody gets married you have doubts about a lot of things, because you`re committing to be with another person for your entire life.
BEHAR: A life sentence --
SANFORD: I mean, that`s marriage is, right. A life sentence in some respects yes. But you know, I had my doubts. Fidelity was the least and the last thing on my mind. Mark was kind of clumsy with women, he was very innocent and --
(CROSSTALK)
SANFORD: -- and I took it -- it took it as honest and open. You know there are a lot of guys out there, you know they`re -- you know they`re cheating all the time any way and then they commit to get married at somebody. You know they`re not going to bring it up and be honest. And you know they`re going to cheat.
But I took it as an open, honest statement and what ensued them was a very honest conversation. And I said Mark, marriage is a vow to be faithful, it is of fidelity. That was it is. You know and marriages last and they don`t last based on how well you commit to one another and how well you stay true to those things.
I said, the words in a vow make no difference. I go to weddings all the time where you know --
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: -- there are sorts of vows that include the word faithful or don`t; it doesn`t matter. And this is a guy who on his life goals, one of his life goals he wanted to adhere to the principles of a specific Bible verse that included faithfulness in it.
BEHAR: Really.
SANFORD: So -- yes, I mean, it`s you know, I guess, I didn`t believe that he was the kind of guy that would -- that would stir from those values.
BEHAR: But don`t you think that a lot of people feel like, hey, I want to be married but I also want to date?
SANFORD: Well --
BEHAR: I think people think that in their minds a lot of times.
SANFORD: You know, it`s not just about marriage. I mean, you know, there are people all over the place that want to have their cake and eat it too --
BEHAR: Exactly.
SANFORD: -- in a whole host of different ways.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: You know, my kids want to get A`s and they don`t want to do their homework. I mean, you know, go figure --
BEHAR: People want it all --
SANFORD: I want to be skinny but I want a piece of chocolate cake. Right?
BEHAR: Yes. So he was upfront with that?
SANFORD: I mean, that`s -- that`s humanity. That`s I mean, that`s the nature of our frailty.
BEHAR: But when people ask you, didn`t a red flag go up? A red flag did go up with you when you dismissed it in a way then.
SANFORD: We talked about it. And I said look, I mean, I said, let`s not get married, I said look, if you`re not committing to me and to a family --
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: -- and said, you know, a future together, then let`s not get married. And he said no, no, I am committing.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: I want just you. So he said --
BEHAR: So you --
SANFORD: -- but I`m just telling you I just have this little doubt. I took that as very honest.
BEHAR: Which you figure and a lot of people have doubts when they`re getting married.
SANFORD: Yes and they maybe don`t express them. Mark is a quirky guy. He expresses --
BEHAR: He`s kinky.
SANFORD: -- he expresses some things that other men don`t necessarily express.
BEHAR: But you know what? I forgive him for that. I get over that.
SANFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: It doesn`t bother me. But the other things in the book that you write about annoy me more, to tell you the truth.
SANFORD: It`s ok.
BEHAR: I mean, making you drive one hour with this -- in a stick shift car that you don`t know how to drive, that`s torturous and dangerous. Why did you do that?
SANFORD: But he didn`t know I didn`t how to drive it and I didn`t know this car was a stick. So I got to the airport and I said, "Holy Cow", now what do I do?
BEHAR: Don`t you assume that a stick shift is a very specialized way of driving? No?
SANFORD: You mean, didn`t he assume that?
BEHAR: Yes, doesn`t -- people -- I would assume that.
SANFORD: You know, if it were my car and it was a stick, I might have said, you know, by the way my car is stick drive.
BEHAR: Yes, what did you think when you got in the car and it was a stick shift?
SANFORD: That detail was lost. You know I have been, you know to be honest, I might have to take the blame on that one. Because I had been in his car before and it just never occurred to me, I mean, I didn`t know otherwise -- because he told me, I`m leaving my car at the airport. I didn`t say, it`s just, it was lost on me.
BEHAR: Oh I see.
SANFORD: Until I got there and I said holy cow, it`s a stick. So you know --
BEHAR: So you know how to drive the stick?
SANFORD: I had driven it once with my girlfriend Julie Canary in the back roads of northern of Wisconsin.
BEHAR: Oh Julie Canary, I know her.
SANFORD: You do?
BEHAR: I don`t. Now, what about -- what`s up with this one?
SANFORD: And we stalled and then we stalled you know bumping back and forth and I was to me I`m 20 years earlier I don`t know but --
BEHAR: Ok, what about this one, I don`t even mind this one, because sleeping with his brothers when you were married. I guess that`s his idea of family value.
SANFORD: No, no he wanted the very first weekend we were home and so you know they had this house, the upstairs, there was a boys room where all the boys slept together. He and his brothers and some you know a family friend who have lived with them for a while --
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: -- and there were a series of rooms, Sara`s room. And so we got there and it was our first weekend married and he said ok, and he went upstairs and he took the bags. And I thought well, you know, are we sleeping in Sara`s room. Anyway, you know, he said why -- I don`t know, I`ve always slept with my brothers, I guess I should sleep with my brothers. And I said, no, so -- but when we didn`t and we didn`t. But it was a little odd, yes, yes.
BEHAR: Old habits die hard.
SANFORD: Yes, old habits die hard, yes.
BEHAR: Ok, let`s see. He didn`t go to the hospital with you when you got your tubes tied.
SANFORD: Well, you know, that was -
BEHAR: What about that?
SANFORD: -- that was different. He was a Congressman living in D.C. and I was having our fourth baby. And I really -- I remember at one point he said we could have ten sons and I said you know, that would just about happen, we`d have ten sons. So I really -- I was ready to have my tubes tied and not to have any more children and we had scheduled the delivery.
And this gets to the crux of how busy the Congressional life is or the political life.
BEHAR: Right.
SANFORD: If I wanted him to be home for the delivery of the baby, the hospital wouldn`t induce on the weekend. We scheduled the induction for first thing Monday morning and he had to vote that afternoon. So he caught the next flight. So he caught I think the 10:00 a.m. flight on Monday morning.
The hospital wouldn`t let me cut my tubes that day, I had to wait until next day -- you know bureaucracy, right --
BEHAR: Really?
SANFORD: So -- I mean it was more important to me that he`s there for the baby`s birth than for the tube tying.
BEHAR: For the tubes tying.
SANFORD: The reason I put that in there, it struck me that what becomes common place in your life, in other words, you learn to accept the life that is yours. So the Congressional life where I`m living at home with these babies, he`s living in D.C. Everything is kind of according to the voting schedule.
It became acceptable or common place to me. And yet I was surprised when the nurse said, isn`t anybody with you? But I had orchestrated to get family to be home with my other three children so that --
BEHAR: I got it. I got you.
SANFORD: yes.
BEHAR: But I mean, do you forgive him for any of this?
SANFORD: In other words, I didn`t take affront to that because I chose to have the tubes tied.
BEHAR: Was there anything in this list that you`re annoyed with then? Because you don`t care about the shift really; forgetting your birthday, does that bother you?
J. SANFORD: Forgetting my birthday bothered me.
BEHAR: Yes. Ok.
J. SANFORD: I would think that you would remember your wife`s birthday.
BEHAR: Yes, that is annoying. But he remembered it after 9/11, right?
J. SANFORD: He does remember it now. Yes. He doesn`t need a reminder --
BEHAR: Now he remembers it. So it takes a tragedy for him to remember your birthday.
Hang on there. We`ll be right back with more with Jenny Sanford.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MARK SANFORD (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I hurt her. I hurt you all. I hurt my wife. I hurt my boys. I hurt friends like (INAUDIBLE). I hurt a lot of different folks. And all I can say is that I apologize.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. SANFORD: The bottom line is this -- I`ve been unfaithful to my wife. I developed a relationship with a -- she started as dear, dear friend from Argentina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
b; We`re back. That was South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford, admitting to the world that he cheated on his wife.
I`m back with the governor`s soon-to-be ex-wife, Jenny Sanford.
I want to read something from your book that struck me. This is what you say. "Mark still saw me as his sounding board. He wondered aloud to me if he shouldn`t just follow his heart. What if he could find true happiness only in Argentina?"
I mean, I`ve never heard of anybody really asking their wife for advice on how to treat the mistress or what to do with his infidelity. Didn`t he have any friends to talk to? This guy comes to you and asks this question?
J. SANFORD: At that stage, you know, I knew he was having this affair and he did have other people to speak with. To my knowledge, I don`t know whether he was asking them about going to see her. But he certainly was asking me and I would call the same friends who are kind of trying to counsel us through here and I would say this is just ripping me up.
And they would agree. And they would say no, no, you can`t talk about going to see her. You can`t go see her. That doesn`t work in a marriage.
BEHAR: But to ask you for it, it`s almost like some kind of mother transference. If I can be Freudian for a second; it`s like the think you ask your parent, "Can I go out with this girl, mommy?" What the heck was that about?
J. SANFORD: And it`s funny, you know, our relationship didn`t develop that way. And I don`t know where or when, you know, in the length of our marriage he came to think that that was appropriate. I don`t know.
BEHAR: What was the turning point in the marriage where he started to see you as a consultant and not a wife?
J. SANFORD: Right. You know, I don`t know. But in this case, as a consultant, you know, in the political campaigns we would bounce ideas off each other. In other words, you know, I often say that having a spouse as your campaign manager is a very good thing and I think I refer to that in the book because I knew the values he held dear.
And political campaigns -- strategists can oftentimes encourage you for example to run negative campaigns, to use the politics of what I call personal destruction.
To be really clever, politics is all about gotcha, you know. And he and I never believed in conducting our affairs that way -- our affairs -- conducting our campaigns that way. So we would be more bouncing ideas off one another with respect to how to conduct an issue or whatever. But it was an open, honest intellectual conversation where we respected one another`s opinion.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: -- asking your advice on the campaign.
J. SANFORD: Yes but not always taking. It was more of a good sharing and coming to a good conclusion that reflected the values we both held. Am I doing what you think is right, is this honest.
But it was not so much -- I never saw it -- I never saw it on that aspect of our relationship as asking for permission for something. This was a new concept and it was something I`d never really seen in him before.
BEHAR: Yes, I see. But it`s interesting, it`s almost like an extension of a campaign manager.
J. SANFORD: It kind of was, but on a very different front and one that I just couldn`t even connect with. I was dumbfounded. So it was just bizarre.
BEHAR: You said in the book that once you learned of the affair, you questioned whether he ever loved you. Do you think he ever loved you and did you ever love him?
J. SANFORD: I know I loved him.
BEHAR: You did?
J. SANFORD: Yes, I do believe that. Yes. And to some extent I think love is -- I think you always love somebody at a certain level. I just can`t be married to him anymore.
BEHAR: But you still love him?
J. SANFORD: In a certain respect, yes. I think you always love somebody, yes.
BEHAR: Do you think he actually loves you?
J. SANFORD: That`s not to say that you can`t -- I don`t believe that you can only love one person. I think I can easily love somebody else.
BEHAR: I want your take on the Spitzer scandal when we come back.
Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIOT SPITZER, FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: In the past few days, I`ve begun to atone for my private failings with my wife, Zilda, my children, and my entire family. The remorse I feel will always be with me. I have been given much, the love of my family. The faith and trust of the people of New York. And the chance to lead this state. I am deeply sorry that I did not live up to what was expected of me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, HLN ANCHOR: Well, that was the disgraced former governor of New York Eliot Spitzer admitting he was unfaithful to his wife, Zilda, as she stands by his side. I`m back with Jenny Sanford, the soon-to-be ex- wife of South Carolina governor Mark Sanford who also publically cheated but Jenny has chosen to divorce her husband -
JENNY SANFORD, WIFE OF MARK SANFORD: No.
BEHAR: And you didn`t stand next to him when he gave the typical politician "I sinned" speech that we`ve all become accustomed to and bored with frankly. But why didn`t you stand by his side that day - the others did?
SANFORD: Well he didn`t ask me, number one.
BEHAR: Oh he didn`t.
SANFORD: No, and if he had, I wouldn`t have - I wouldn`t have said yes. But our circumstances were different. Remember, I had known about it for a number of months. You know, I don`t know -- I can`t judge about whether it`s appropriate for anybody else to have stood there or not. Well the Spitzers are still married. They were able to work things through I suspect. But for me, you know, we had had six rocky months and it`s just not an option for me.
BEHAR: But do you -- do you think -- Spitzer was with a hooker. Your husband found his quote unquote soul mate. I think a lot of women relate to the fact that a soul mate is even worse that be finding a hooker because it`s such -- it`s realsy is a rejection of you, where a hooker is like, okay, this is for sex.
SANFORD: Right.
BEHAR: That must have felt worse, right?
SANFORD: It did feel worst in a certain way. And it also gave me the sense that he was just so truly lost. You know, he wasn`t just out, you know, playing a game. I mean, he just wasn`t the person I knew.
BEHAR: You know what I love about you? That you feel sorry for the guy.
SANFORD: You know what in a certain sense, I do.
BEHAR: You feel -
SANFORD: But that gets to the crux of I married him because I believed him and I do believe - and I do believe he`s lost. I believe still today that he did hold a core set of values that he seems to have strayed from those. And you know he gets them back. It`s too late for the marriage but I hope for the sake of our four sons he needs to be a man again.
BEHAR: Yes that`s true but speaking of values, I mean, your husband was a family values, Christian values, that whole routine. And yet how does he reconcile the fact that infidelity and lying and everything else with his Christian values?
SANFORD: Well that`s - that`s the big challenge going forward. Particularly for our children, in other words, not only does he need to reconcile that. And you can reconcile and you can repent and you can get back and rebuild your life
BEHAR: Right.
SANFORD: And become a much more stalwart citizen. And you know --
BEHAR: Was he a judgmental Christian?
SANFORD: He was not.
BEHAR: He was not.
SANFORD: Actually he is not a judgmental person. Although he made comments about Clinton and made some other comments that are going to haunt him. And more importantly, from my perspective, this is a guy who, you know, had a biblical lesson or a lesson on character almost every night he was home with the boys. Now how do the boys reconcile that? You know that?
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: That`s a very hard thing for them to reconcile.
BEHAR: My bother used to say people who live in glass houses should dress in the cellar.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now why do you think that Zilda Sid stayed there. And Wendy Vitter, and Hillary Clinton, they all stayed it their husbands. What`s the difference between them and you, do you think?
SANFORD: You know, I can`t speak to their personal situations.
BEHAR: What do you think -
SANFORD: All I know is this, I find it -- the dissolution or the ending of a 20-year marriage is not something that you take lightly. So I decided when I learned in January that I would try to work through it. But the time we went from January through all these number of hoops and then Argentina and then the soul mate and then all dalliances with other ladies, I mean, it was a little bit too much. The process got to where I said as much as I believe in marriage. And as much as I believe in\ family,
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: Particularly for the sake of these children, it`s time to move on.
BEHAR: You know what, he`s not ready to be married.
SANFORD: He`s not ready to -- certainly not ready to reconcile with me, I can tell you that.
BEHAR: Now when you say other dalliances, who are those?
SANFORD: He mentioned after his press conference a few days later he had an interview I think with the associated press or somebody and he mentioned that he had -- I think the word was dalliances. I don`t know, at the time it was a blur for me. And I think I`ve chosen to maybe forget some of that.
BEHAR: So he actually -- so it`s not just this Argentinean soul mate.
SANFORD: But he says he never crossed the line with them. Well I think he and I clearly -
BEHAR: He got to second base.
SANFORD: We have different definitions of whatever the line is. I think whatever the behavior was, it was inappropriate.
BEHAR: Well it`s like the Clinton definition of sex.
SANFORD: Right.
BEHAR: What is the definition of "is.".
SANFORD: Is.
BEHAR: Indalliant, is a question mark on a little bit more on that. Now, there are rumors you know that governor Paterson now from New York is on the continuum of dalliances.
SANFORD: Dalliances.
BEHAR: I like that. Is there something about politicians, do you think, that they seem to be prone to infidelity?
SANFORD: You know it`s a good question. I don`t know if it`s -- if it`s politicians or is it that we focus so much on politicians and we love to rip them down.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: Our society loves to do that, and I don`t know why that is. You know we expect perfection of our politicians but you know, nobody is perfect.
BEHAR: How about John Edwards, what do you think of that?
SANFORD: Oh, gosh.
BEHAR: She finally left him, Elizabeth.
SANFORD: Yes, and my heart goes out to her. My heart goes out to her. She`s got a lot on her plate. And nobody deserves that.
BEHAR: Well there`s allegedly a sex tape now.
SANFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: You at least have been spared that since she`s an Argentina.
SANFORD: Oh I, you know what, when I heard about the sex tape, Mark was with the boys the other day and I said, oh, I looked Mark in the eye, and I said I hope there are no tapes coming. Boys, you know, brace yourself if there`s something else coming down the line.
BEHAR: Okay let`s talk about the kids for a second, the oldest or the youngest is 11? What did you --
SANFORD: The youngest is 11, the oldest is 17.
BEHAR: 17, okay so they`re vulnerable.
SANFORD: They are very vulnerable.
BEHAR: At these stages.
SANFORD: And impressionable. They`re young boys that are, you know, trying to become men. That`s an awkward time to begin with.
BEHAR: Now, I know that you`ve said on other shows that he`s the one who brought it out in the public and that your book is - is just -- you`re not the one who did the public thing.
SANFORD: No.
BEHAR: But in a way you did a little bit because you`re saying what a cheapskate he is.
SANFORD: But he wears that as a badge of honor. He doesn`t take offense to that. This is a guy who, he prides himself -- when he was in D.C., he prided himself on how he could go two weeks on a $20 bill. And which speaks to how congressmen, everything gets done for them. You know, he can make a white starched shirt last you know, almost two weeks. Which is just kind of scary.
BEHAR: What do you mean?
SANFORD: He gets them with extra starch so he doesn`t have to spend more money on the dry cleaning.
BEHAR: Oh boy, was he cheap with you or just with himself?
SANFORD: You know, I was smart enough to make sure he wasn`t in control with my dry cleaning.
BEHAR: You`re a smart lady. Because you know, and the jewelry story, I love the jewelry story. He sends one of his aides to buy a piece of jewelry. Then when you saw it, it`s not worth the money -- he said fake it back.
SANFORD: Yes, he`s got be jewelry in the past from time to time, he does forget some birthdays and then he`ll make it up on another birthday, you know. And that`s, there are a lot of men that do that.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: You men out there, don`t be telling me you remember every birthday and you`re perfect all the time.
BEHAR: So I mean, a lot of women can relate to your story, because you were dissed. And by him calling the woman a soul mate, you want to strangle him for that. And the other thing is sometimes you know they leave and they go with a hooker, you don`t care. But they buy jewelry for the mistress.
SANFORD: For the mistress.
BEHAR: That`s annoying.
SANFORD: Oh totally annoying.
BEHAR: There are things that you just can`t tolerate as a woman.
SANFORD: Right.
BEHAR: And you`re a hero to a lot of women because of that.
SANFORD: Yes but the necklace thing, I actually understood the necklace thing. Because the necklace thing in many respects, the way he did it was so cute. He faxed these clues for a scavenger hunt and the boys came with me and it was so fun and it was sweet. And you know these texts had cute little love notes in it. And I found this necklace and it was just a little diamond on a little chain. I mean it was nothing but it was sweet the way he did it. Remember, he ordered it over the phone.
BEHAR: Yes,
SANFORD: He was in D.C. and busy and you know --
BEHAR: Was this for your birthday?
SANFORD: It was for my birthday. And I don`t know what he spent for it. But in his mind he must have thought he bought the hope diamond. So when the guy gets there - aww - literally his jaw dropped. He said that`s what I spent that money on. I said you got to be kidding me. But by this time, you know, we had been married a number of years, and you know, 10 years or 15 I don`t know.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: And I knew him and so I couldn`t keep the necklace because you know what? He couldn`t have slept -- he would be stressed all night long thinking he spent too much on that necklace.
BEHAR: But his cheapness sometimes was creative. The one story about the bicycles -- he sent, tell the story.
SANFORD: He sent a picture of half a bike and the then the next birthday or Christmas I got the picture of the other half. But this guy --
BEHAR: But what was the point of that, to like tease you, hey, the bike is coming?
SANFORD: We were newly married and I think we were, you know, we were renovating a house. And I think we were trying to save money.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: You know we were in a different stage in our lives. I think it was cute. I didn`t really take offense. But your eyebrow goes up a little bit. You know, that`s, in the early stage of a marriage, you`re trying to understand somebody.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, so at this point, what I`m gleaning from you, is that you were only ticked off for cheating on you and forgetting your birthday. Everything else you don`t feel that bad about.
SANFORD: No, I mean -- because I understood him, yes, and I also understood there are times -- I tell you this, I wish we had more time together, but a lot of it is the function of the life we found ourselves in. And I was still proud of him in the way he was acting in his office. Thinking all along that he was holding true to those values.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: But the way he conducted himself as governor and congressman, he stuck to his principles, which you don`t see very often in a politician.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: You know on a conservative fiscal, you know, fiscal sight.
BEHAR: If you could go back and marry him all over again and knowing all this stuff, would you marry him now?
SANFORD: Knowing all this stuff?
BEHAR: Yes, knowing this is the road he will take, he will not be faithful, he will have a mistress, you will not get a diamond on your birthday.
SANFORD: No, I wouldn`t do it again.
BEHAR: He`ll only give you a cheap bicycle.
SANFORD: No, no, no.
BEHAR: You would not do it again.
SANFORD: No, but if I went back -- but part of writing this book, going back I made the decisions at each step of the way knowing what I knew at the time and I would probably make those decisions the same way again.
BEHAR: Because of who you were then.
SANFORD: Right, but knowing what I know now, no, it would be tough.
BEHAR: I`m going to miss you, Jenny. Thanks for doing this, really it`s a pleasure.
SANFORD: It`s been fun. Thanks for having me.
BEHAR: Up next, should you keep waiting for Mr. Right or just cut your losses and tie the knot with Mr. Mediocre? Stay tuned to find out. Thank you very much for doing this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You search and you search for a prince, but you find one frog after another. What is a girl to do? Do you keep looking for Mr. Right or do you settle for a guy with a couple of warts and learn how to vacuum the lily pad? Those are the questions confronting us tonight. And here to talk frogs and princes with me are Lori Gottlieb, author of "Mary Him, The Case For Settling For Mr. Good Enough." and Julie Klausner, performer and author of "I don`t Care About Your Band," a funny book about what she`s learned from her dating experiences.
Welcome ladies.
JULIE KLAUSNER, AUTHOR, "I DON`T CARE ABOUT YOUR BAND": Thank you.
BEHAR: Okay, let me ask either of you at this point -
KLAUSNER: Thank you.
BEHAR: Jenny Sanford was on the show earlier, and she says that you know divorcing Mark, her husband, etcetera, she said that in her book it wasn`t exactly love at first sight. It was more like friendship at first sight.
KLAUSNER: Sure.
BEHAR: Was she settling when she married him? Do you think? It was just friendship.
KLAUSNER: I mean it sounds like she did and she sort of probably got more than what she bargained for. But then she also sort of bargained for - I mean wasn`t there something in the vows that he wasn`t going to be faithful to her?
BEHAR: Yes.
LORI GOTTLIEB, AUTHOR, "MARRY HIM": She absolutely settled. She wasn`t you know, it`s kind of like women a lot of times are too picky about the things that don`t matter. But they`re not picky enough about the obvious things that do matter. Like if you won`t say fidelity in your marriage vows, isn`t that a red flag?
BEHAR: Well she doesn`t think so. She says that he`s quirky. She said he was inexperienced --
GOTTLIEB: That`s beyond quirky.
BEHAR: That`s what we all wondered about -
KLAUSNER: Quirky is wearing a top hat to dinner or something.
BEHAR: And you know the other person on my mind tonight because we talked about some other things that are related to Jennifer Aniston.
KLAUSNER: Yes.
BEHAR: She seems to have bad luck with guys. What is she doing wrong? You ladies know all this.
KLAUSNER: I don`t think she`s thin enough. I`m a little worried.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Okay, maybe a diet is in her future.
GOTTLIEB: I think Jennifer I think Jennifer got caught up in the thing a lot of women get caught up, which is they`re not looking for what`s important. And you know, I think with Brad, you know, he was everybody`s kind of prince. But was he actually a prince? It turns out not really.
BEHAR: Well, he`s a prince to Angelina, he`s not a prince to her.
KLAUSNER: Sure.
GOTTLIEB: Well we don`t know if he`s a prince to Angelina. We don`t know what`s going on with them.
BEHAR: Listen he takes those kids all over Africa. He`s a prince.
GOTTLIEB: Oh please, so many kids.
BEHAR: I don`t know too many guys that would have put up with all those adoptions.
KLAUSNER: No, it was like the rainbow coalition.
BEHAR: Yes, I mean that`s the nice thing about them I think. But you know he`s very good about it.
KLAUSNER: Sure I guess, it seems to me like he is the one who is entitled. Like he`s the one who said, okay, well, I have America`s sweet heart, this gorgeous girlfriend and yet it`s not enough. I decided I want a brunette also.
BEHAR: Well it could be that he fell in love with another woman. I mean that happens, too.
KLAUSNER: Interesting, interesting.
BEHAR: Yes, I`m being kind to him. Do you think -- let`s get to the Mr. Right versus Mr. Wrong.
KLAUSNER: Sure.
BEHAR: Maybe women`s expectations are too high. I mean do we have to have a guy with great abs? Why do we have to have that?
KLAUSNER: I think men are the ones who are more shallow in that department. I think women are realistic about acknowledging when you find a great guy and acknowledging when you`re just in some sort of freak show house of mirrors of like the worst dating experiences you`ve never expected to have.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
GOTTLIEB: You know what but you think that and a lot of women think guys are so picky but there`s a survey in "Marry Him" where they ask men and women if what are the deal breakers for going on a second date. And Men named three things: they said she has to be attractive enough, she doesn`t have to look like Jennifer Anniston or Angelina Jolie, just attractive enough. She has to be warm and kind and she has to be interesting to talk to. And women named 300 things that would rule a guy out for just a second date.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
GOTTLIEB: And so women can be incredibly Picky.
BEHAR: Well let me ask you girls, and I have a list of some deal breakers.
KLAUSNER: Sure.
BEHAR: He`s 45 and he still lives with his mother, deal breaker?
KLAUSNER: Is his mother the queen?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: No -
GOTTLIEB: She`s very open minded.
BEHAR: Yes, what do you think, Lori, is that a deal breaker?
GOTTLIEB: I think if he`s not an adult -- if you want to be with an adult, and he`s not an adult, then you know, yeah, it`s a deal breaker.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
KLAUSNER: Yes, it might be an issue. I mean there`s a recession and they keep talking about this man session and that seems like a thin diagram of one in the same.
BEHAR: All right how about he named his penis Melissa. Is that a deal breaker?
KLAUSNER: Interesting, like "Sweet Melissa" like the song?
BEHAR: Yes, he named his gentiles -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s a deal breaker?
KLAUSNER: I would need to meet Melissa. Is the answer.
BEHAR: Okay how about this -
GOTTLIEB: It depends who Melissa is.
BEHAR: A man -- this is something that someone thought, a man who puts a lot of gel in his hair, like you know those types of -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, what does that say about a man. He puts too much gel, he`s into himself, right?
KLAUSNER: Sure, sure I`d say so. I mean make sure it`s gel is the first of all, that would be the first thing.
BEHAR: What else could it be?
KLAUSNER: I don`t know.
BEHAR: So we are trying to figure out what`s picky and what`s unrealistic, and let`s sort it out. So tell me what you think is too picky.
KLAUSNER: I think that -- I don`t think that I`m too picky. I mean my book is really about the horrible dating experiences that I`ve had. Where settling wasn`t really an option. It`s about me being glad by 20s were over and marrying somebody in that book wouldn`t have been a possibility.
BEHAR: Okay well then Lori, what do you think is too picky?
GOTTLIEB: Well, I`ll give you an example. Somebody told me the other day that they were on match.com and they didn`t see that the guy had checked off that he had kids. So she went on a date with him. She ended up falling in love with him. And that was a year ago. Now they`re getting married but you know she said I never would have gone out on a date with him if I knew, that if I had seen that he had checked that box that he had kids. We have such a specific idea about who the guy is, who could make us happy that we rule people out without even meeting them. You know, it`s like I`m not going to be attracted to the guy who is 5`6". Well, you don`t know. You got to meet the guy who is 5`6".
BEHAR: Uh huh, okay, you know, I was reading that you think, no, it`s Lori, you said that in your book that feminism screwed up your love life. Were you really a feminist or were you just pretending to be a feminist?
GOTTLIEB: You know I am a feminist and what I say in the next sentence is it wasn`t feminism. You know feminism didn`t write a dating manual and feminism never said you should hold out for prince charming. Feminism said you need to be in a relationship where you`re respected, where you`re an equal. You know, it wasn`t about you need to marry Brad Pitt and that makes you a feminist. But a lot of women thought oh I can have all. And that whole idea of I deserve the best and I can have it all - is feminism. And that`s not what feminism is about.
KLAUSNER: But feminism is just a drop in the bucket when it comes to entitlement. Feminism exists because men naturally feel entitled to have everything, to do everything, to start their careers when they feel like it, to ask for a raise.
BEHAR: Yes but they know that`s not possible too. Everybody knows that`s not possible.
KLAUSNER: And everybody knows that nobody`s perfect. It`s not about settling, it`s about a compromise. Not about a big wedding, it`s about a marriage and a relationship. But I don`t think that is the definition of feminism - is being, you know, either finding the sir perfect or dying alone, I think that there`s some gray area in between.
BEHAR: Well I mean you have to be independent in order to find a man who`s suitable to you. Okay, thanks for joining me, ladies. Go grab their books. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Actress Anne Hathaway is making headlines today for an interview she gave to the British "GQ." in it she revealed her decision to leave the catholic church over its position on gays, a group that includes her brother. But I understand they left with such my panache, even the church couldn`t get upset. Back with me Kelly Cutrone, publicist and star of Bravo`s Kell On Earth. And joining us is Michelangelo Signorile, gay activist and a host on Sirius XM Radio. Okay, Mike, can I call you Mike?
MICHELANGELO SIGNORILE, HOST, SIRIUS XM RADIO: You can call Mike.
BEHAR: What do they call you?
SIGNORILE: Mike, Michael - everything.
BEHAR: Whatever, okay, she`s making sort of a deal out of leaving, tah-dah, I`m leaving. She could have just slipped away easily, no one would have noticed. Why make a big deal out of it?
SIGNORILE: I think she wanted to make a statement. Because the catholic church makes a statement about its virulently anti-gay positions. I mean we`re not just talking about a church that has a difference of opinion on homosexuality. You have this pope saying that homosexuality is the end of civilization. That we have to protect the culture from homosexuality the way we have to protect the rain forest from degradation. You know, we`ve got a bishop in Guam who just said that gays are worse than the Islamic Fundamentalists.
BEHAR: Oh my god.
SIGNORILE: Terrorists. So I think she wants to say, not my brother, you`re not doing that to my brother.
BEHAR: I see. Do you think it will hurt her career to come out against the church, which is a powerful institution?
SIGNORILE: I don`t think so.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIGNORILE: I think most Catholics, even, disagree with the pope on, certainly, the issue of choice, certainly, even the issue of marriage. They`re split, for gays and lesbians. I think most Catholics realize that the institution is still a few centuries behind.
BEHAR: So you`re saying the institution is intolerant, not the everyday catholic.
SIGNORILE: No, but what they often don`t do is speak up about it. And she`s speaking up about it. And that`s brave.
BEHAR: Okay so does this then hurt the church`s reputation, as much as, her leaving, as much as, say, Mel Gibson staying in the church?
SIGNORILE: I think it definitely sends a message that not everybody is going to stand by this church and she, you know, her whole family left and became Episcopalians. It`s not like they`re rejecting religion.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
SIGNORILE: They are just saying, you know, we`re not going to deal with this anti-gay agenda.
BEHAR: Now gay stars in Hollywood, Kelly, you can talk to this, they seem to be more prevalent these days. Neil Patrick Harris.
KELLY CUTRONE, PUBLICIST: You know there`s a lot of people -
BEHAR: Ellen, is going to be on "American Idol," right in the middle of everything.
CUTRONE: Right, right.
BEHAR: You know, do you think it`s a good idea to come out, or does it really depend on --
CUTRONE: I think it depends on what your character is and what you`re doing. I think if you are a 15 year old kid and you`re the star on the Disney channel, it`s probably not a good thing. If you`re fan base is, you know, all young girls between the ages of 8 and 15, probably not going to help with your record sales, and you are Zac Efron, "High School Musical". if that`s the kind of thing you are doing, it`s probably not going to work.
BEHAR: Really.
CUTRONE: I mean it didn`t work for Ellen at the beginning. She was made to sit out for awhile before she was allowed to come back right?
BEHAR: But now she`s come back with a bang.
CUTRONE: Yes, and thank god, thank god, right?
SIGNORILE: And Neil Patrick Harris is doing great.
CUTRONE: But he was also made to sit out for awhile. George Michael was made to sit out for a real long while.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You famously outed a lot of people in your day, am I right?
SIGNORILE: And honestly, a lot of things affect people`s careers all the time, not just issues about their sexual orientation. But as you were saying, they do bounce back, because I think the fans appreciate their work in the end. And I think it`s the powers that be that has the problem. Hollywood, you know, it`s the money, the conservatives -- the money is always conservative.
CUTRONE: Right.
SIGNORILE: And they`re always afraid. I think people, I think the public can deal with it. They underestimate.
CUTRONE: Yes, I think this is going to give Anne Hathway a really good edge in Hollywood though. Because she`s been seen as the pretty little girl next door.
BEHAR: She`s a good actress. I like her very much.
CUTRONE: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Thanks for joining me guys. Check out "Kell On Earth" Mondays at 10:00 p.m. on Bravo. Good night, everybody.
END
