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Dr. Drew
Anthony Family Secrets Exposed
Aired June 24, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Anthony family secrets exposed. Damage, dysfunction and scars were hidden until today. Will today`s raw and riveting testimony from a mother and a brother help spare Casey Anthony`s life?
I want to know. You probably do, too. So let`s figure this out.
All right. You thought Cindy Anthony`s testimony yesterday was electrifying. She was back at it today, back on the stand.
Watch this and we`ll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Casey Anthony`s mother giving emotional testimony this morning.
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: Your theory of defense was that this was an accidental drowning.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: She could climb into the pool by herself.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Now on the stand is Lee Anthony, the brother of Casey Anthony. We`re going to listen in to that.
ANTHONY: I watched that video hundreds of times since I haven`t seen Caylee in 2008.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I was very angry at my mom, and I was also angry at my sister. I mean, I was just angry at everyone in general.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Lee`s niece and Cindy`s granddaughter, Caylee, gone forever.
Now, Cindy could lose her daughter as well, too. A question I have for all of us today is, how far would you go to save your child`s life if she was facing a possible death sentence? Would you perjure yourself in a court of law? Would you risk going to jail? Would you, yourself, fall on the sword if it meant you would save your child?
Now, as a father, I know, as you do, other parents, there`s no bond like that between a child and a parent. I can`t begin to imagine the pain and turmoil Cindy must be enduring. Would I do anything to save my own child`s life?
You are both looking at me. Would I do anything? The answer is, I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Within reason.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can you know?
PINSKY: Well, hold on, ladies. I`ll introduce you in a second.
You can`t know until you`re in that position. That`s exactly right.
I always tell my kids, look, if you do things, it`s your responsibility, you`re going to take the consequences. That`s it, I`m sorry, I`m going to let the ax fall. But if it meant something awful like the death sentence, it`s really hard to imagine being in that position. Maybe I would fall on the sword.
Tonight, secrets and lies in the Anthony family. Lee Anthony breaks down on the stand. Casey`s brother says he had no idea his sister was pregnant. Secrets again. No one told him until she was far along.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Mr. Anthony, can you tell us why you are angry and who you were angry with as to why you didn`t go and see Caylee and Casey at the hospital?
L. ANTHONY: I`m sorry. I was very angry at my mom and I was also angry at my sister. I mean, I was just angry at everyone in general that they didn`t -- that they didn`t want to include me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Casey`s reaction was intense. Do you believe her there? She completely broke down.
Now, we`ve seen this before. It seems like it`s when her brother is up on the stand. He`s the only one that really makes her emotional, if we buy that.
I kind of did. But what`s she crying about, is the question.
Plus, Cindy Anthony falls on the sword. Is she lying to save her daughter?
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: Do you recall in March of 2008 you doing any types of searches for any items that might include chloroform?
C. ANTHONY: Yes. Well, I started looking at chlorophyll, and then that prompted me to look up chloroform.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The important thing to remember is during her deposition, she kind of denied that. And now she`s claiming she`s had a sort of restoration of her memory because her medications were changed.
Attorneys Lisa Bloom and Debra Opri are here with me in the studio. As well, I`ve got host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith. He joins us from Orlando.
Ryan, shocking testimony today. What did you see in there?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Stunning. I think both Cindy and Lee provided the most compelling day of testimony for the defense in their case so far.
And Cindy, you talk about those memory moments, she talked about that ladder being up at that pool, talking about the defense`s accident theory, saying that on the 16th, which is the day the defense believes that Caylee drowned accidentally, that ladder may have been up. She may have had access to that ladder.
But you make the great point about Lee Anthony also being on the stand and Casey breaking down. When he talked about the anger he felt about not being included in the idea that Casey was pregnant with Caylee, and that he was excluded from that, Casey broke down at that moment.
We usually see her break down when Caylee is talked about, when pictured are shown. Sometimes she`ll break down. But when you talk about family matters, she`s stoic.
This time, she was not. She was completely emotional. And we saw them crying together. And it was one of the most emotional moments we`ve seen all week.
PINSKY: Thank you, Ryan.
Do you ladies buy those emotions?
DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY: No.
PINSKY: You don`t buy it, Debra? No?
OPRI: I live in a courtroom every day of the week. And I am telling you that people who, you know their testimony, you know it`s coming, it is cut and dry. This stuff with this emotional outburst and dabbing the eyes, and the mother -- I didn`t buy it. I`m sorry.
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I disagree. I spent a lot of time in courtrooms, too, and in a high-pressure cooker like they`re in right now, everybody`s under a lot of stress.
It`s not hard to go from highly stressed to crying. Now, as to what they`re crying about, as you asked, that`s a different question.
But I also disagree with Ryan. I don`t think this was a tremendously significant day. And I`ll tell you why.
Yes, for the soap opera of why people are upset, they didn`t get to go to the bridal shower, the baby shower --
PINSKY: Who cares?
BLOOM: -- what does that have to do with a murder trial?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Wait, Ryan, one second.
BLOOM: I don`t think anyone believes her about the chloroform.
PINSKY: OK.
Ryan, go.
SMITH: I think the point here with Lee crying on that stand is that this is a dysfunctional family. Remember, the defense theory here is there are a lot of secrets in this family, and that Casey had this baby bump, Lee noticed it. The family said, don`t even worry about it, it`s nothing. And then it wasn`t until a few days before she gave birth that Lee found out that she was about to give birth.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: So, the point is for the defense --
OPRI: Start condition the jury with secrets, secrets, secrets. It`s boo-hoo, boo-hoo. It`s getting ridiculous. It`s going to numb the jury eventually. I`m numb.
PINSKY: Well, one of the things that bothered me, among other things, is that Lee`s reaction seemed excessive. I mean, I`ve sort of done a casual survey out in the world. And I said, "What if you found out your sister`s pregnant and she didn`t tell you?" And people are like, oh, God, what is she up to?
BLOOM: I mean, what if the baby is murdered and your sister is on trial --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Well, I`m with you on that. I think he`s crying about -- something bigger he`s crying about here, it seems to me.
BLOOM: That`s what I think it is.
PINSKY: Ryan says yes.
Cindy testified about Caylee playing in the backyard pool. This goes to the issue of the ladder and whatnot, Ryan. Let`s look at this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: Did she often get anxious to get into the water and sometimes want to get ahead of you?
C. ANTHONY: For the most part, she, you know, would just sit there and wait for us. But we always had a life jacket on her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: They had life jacket on her, but the fact is she was able to barely climb the ladder in some of the footage they actually had there. You know, kids hit developmental milestones when all of a sudden they`re able to do things.
OPRI: She was 2 years old.
PINSKY: A kid could have suddenly gone up and climbed in the ladder and gone in the pool. It happens all the time in this world, right?
OPRI: Yes, but the question is --
PINSKY: Did it happen?
OPRI: Yes. And who was taking care of the child then? Could have, would have, should have. It`s all what if? Now, is this enough to prove reasonable doubt?
PINSKY: That`s the question.
OPRI: At this point in time, I don`t know.
BLOOM: It`s the number one cause of death of kids under 5, drowning. And it only takes one. It takes that one time --
(CROSSTALK)
OPRI: Negligent endangerment of children.
PINSKY: Yes, but maybe that`s what they were hiding out from, maybe that`s why there was a cover-up.
Ryan, you`re saying, yes, it was drowning. Or at least the reasonable doubt is here now.
SMITH: I don`t say it`s completely reasonable doubt. They have a lot of other stuff to prove here.
For example, they say that George Anthony discovered their body. They`ve got to do that. There`s a lot more they have to put together.
But what they did today was, they showed Caylee big enough to open that door. That ladder being up, as Cindy talked about, on June 16th, the day the defense says she died accidentally by drowning, and so you prove a story, you start putting together a story here. And like Lisa said, it only takes one person to believe that story and get to reasonable doubt.
PINSKY: Debra, last word and then I`ve got to go.
OPRI: A house full of people and the child knows how to open the door, climbs up the ladder? You know, I`m just not buying it.
PINSKY: OK. Debra, Lisa, thank you very much.
Ryan, thank you.
I have got much more to come.
Coming up, is there more beneath the surface of today`s testimony? I think we`re all saying yes, and we`ll try to figure out what that is.
And by the way, people have twittered me, why don`t we talk about what`s going on in the mind of these people? We can`t even figure out what`s going on with this people, let alone exactly what they`re thinking. We`re trying to figure that out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can try.
PINSKY: The lawyers certainly think that -- well, they`re fighting tooth and nail in the courtroom over one question in particular.
Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: Were you angry because they hid the pregnancy from you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Asked and answered. Leading.
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: Sustained as to leading.
BAEZ: Why were you angry?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Asked and answered.
PERRY: Sustained.
BAEZ: Are there other reasons why you were angry?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. ANTHONY: Our bedrooms are right next to the bathroom. I could see her midsection, and it was chilling.
BAEZ: Were there any discussions between the time that you confronted your mother and the time that Casey picked you up at the airport that had anything to do with Casey being pregnant?
L. ANTHONY: We never spoke about it again, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We have a saying in my work which is that you are as sick as your secrets. And in this case, a lot of secrets, a lot of family dysfunction on display. Lee Anthony says no one told him Casey was pregnant until she was giving birth.
Then what followed today was what seemed to be a poignant brother/sister moment. He breaks down; Casey follows.
Now, perhaps this was a moment of honest emotion from her, and yet we`re questioning that. And it seemed like there was emotion.
See what you guys think about this, because this is what we talked about in the last block, and it seemed that we all agreed on this. There was emotion, but it wasn`t clear about what.
So, what is going on with these two? A lot more than what`s being said, that`s for sure.
The attorneys seemed to agree. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: Were you angry because they hid the pregnancy from you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Asked and answered. And leading.
PERRY: Sustained as to leading.
BAEZ: Why were you angry?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Asked and answered.
PERRY: Sustained.
BAEZ: Are there other reasons why you were angry?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Asked and answered.
PERRY: Overruled as to that question.
BAEZ: Were there other reasons why you were angry?
L. ANTHONY: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with attorneys Lisa Bloom and Debra Opri.
What was all that? What did we just see?
OPRI: Bad acting job?
BLOOM: That`s so cynical.
OPRI: I mean, this is all in the family.
Lisa, all in the family. They just don`t get it right.
PINSKY: I get that, but I want to know what went on in the courtroom there. Why all those interruptions? What was it they were trying --
OPRI: Oh, it`s objections. You`re just trying to interrupt the question-and-answer session.
PINSKY: See, to you guys it made sense. To me it made no sense.
OPRI: It made sense because every time you ask a question, a good attorney will object because you --
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: So, if Debra has got a good flow going with the witness, I don`t like that. So I`m going to jump in with an objection. And I think of a reason -- leading.
OPRI: Leading. "Asked and answered" is lame, lame objections, but it knocked the witness off kilter.
BLOOM: And the judge allows it.
OPRI: And It was like, uh, uh -- I can`t think of it, the rest of it.
PINSKY: What was I talking about?
OPRI: Right. Where`s my script?
BLOOM: It throws the witnesses off, too. It`s very hard to sit there with a lot of objections flying.
PINSKY: I get that. And it seemed like the other area that they were trying to interrupt was anything about Casey`s nefarious criminal past.
BLOOM: OK, now, that`s important. It`s called prior bad acts and the law. And they`re not supposed to be coming in at trial --
PINSKY: Not, Debra, prior bad acting, as you have suggested.
BLOOM: So the jury is not supposed to hear about her bad check- writing and other things she`s done in the past that aren`t relevant. But -- and here`s the big "but" -- if the defense opens the door, and that door opens by asking questions along those lines, then it can come in not only for the defense, but the prosecution can bring in all the prior bad stuff.
OPRI: They opened the door and said, it`s all you can eat, come on down. The credit cards, everything, the prior bad acts, I don`t agree with that.
PINSKY: Well, the prosecution kept saying, open door, open door. So that`s what they meant when --
OPRI: You opened the door.
BLOOM: So, therefore, allow me to ask questions now about Casey`s prior bad acts.
PINSKY: Which they did. They did ask that. But wasn`t some of that an attempt to get the focus on the law enforcement being already biased towards Casey? That every time they came over there, they handcuffed Casey, they looked at Casey? And then whatever bad acts they had on record they let go because they wanted to do the investigation on the child?
OPRI: The jury doesn`t care about how insincere and rude law enforcement were. They want to know, who is she? What did she do? And what happened that day?
BLOOM: But the jury will care if law enforcement made up its mind. If they had a rush to judgment, if they didn`t look at other possible alternatives. Like the defense is saying now that the baby died accidentally drowning, did law enforcement appropriately look at that, or did they jump to the conclusion immediately that she`s a murderer?
OPRI: Well, when did you tell them?
PINSKY: Well, the other thing is, I think people at home would get angry about the fact that what we all see about Casey, the stuff that makes us so angry, the jury might not be seeing. I think that would infuriate people at home.
OPRI: You mean like the argument sidebar and the --
PINSKY: The stuff we`re talking about in terms of the prior acts, all the crazy stuff that Casey was doing that shows us that watch this, not such a good --
BLOOM: Well, they`ve heard about her partying, for example. I mean, that`s probably the biggest. Most people would think partying when your little daughter is missing and maybe dead is a lot worse than writing bad checks.
PINSKY: And I would say, by the way, the emotion that I saw on Casey today was precisely what I would expect to see every time they bring up Caylee. That`s exactly when I would expect to see it, not when Lee talks.
(CROSSTALK)
OPRI: I`d like to know more about that relationship between Lee and Casey. And we never may (ph) know about it.
PINSKY: Weird. Something`s wrong.
Does anybody agree with me? I think something is --
OPRI: Something`s wrong.
PINSKY: You`re saying that, too?
BLOOM: Don`t do that. I disagree. I don`t want to jump on this family.
I think everybody jumps on the bandwagon on this family. And I`ve been in high-profile trials with people. It is the hardest thing in this world.
Are these perfect people? No. All right? But I`m not going to indict the brothers and the parents, who have been through hell and back.
OPRI: But that`s what the defense is doing, Lisa.
BLOOM: I don`t think it`s appropriate.
OPRI: The family is doing it. And you`re saying it`s the wrong thing to attack them? The defense for Casey is saying, what a screwed up family she came from.
BLOOM: And I have higher standards for how I live my life than Casey Anthony does.
OPRI: Well, guess what? That family may be dysfunctional, but does it have a cause to say that`s the reason why she may have killed the child, or it was accidental and she hid it for 31 days?
BLOOM: Well, we don`t know. And that`s a lot of assumptions. You`re assuming that all of Casey`s allegations are --
(CROSSTALK)
OPRI: I don`t think you can say a dysfunctional family is an excuse for murder.
PINSKY: Ladies, host here.
BLOOM: Hi, Drew.
PINSKY: The dynamic between Lee and Casey during his testimony today reminds us of a moment from earlier in the case. This was at Caylee`s memorial in February, 2009.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. ANTHONY: CMA, I miss you. I love you.
CMA, I am so proud of you. I hope you`re proud of me, too.
I need you to know that I will never forget the promise that I`ve made to you. I will never forget.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What was that promise? "CMA," he could be talking about Caylee Marie Anthony, right? But Casey has the same initials, so he could also be referring to his sister.
And today, more evidence on the stand of the enmeshment between the two. Does it cast new light on that video we just saw?
What do you guys think?
BLOOM: Well, it`s enmeshment. What if the brother and sister actually love each other and they`re close? Does that have to be a psychological condition?
OPRI: You know, I don`t mean to come across so hard in my disbelief at the behavior of the family witnesses today, but the reality is, in the real world, it should be cut and dry, here is the evidence. For the brother to be acting like he did, it is way over the top, and I think the jury is going to react differently than what the defense wants.
PINSKY: Negatively.
BLOOM: I don`t think his testimony is very important anyway, frankly. He was upset he wouldn`t get to go to the shower. Who cares?
PINSKY: Ladies -- Debra, Lisa, thank you so much.
I just want to make a quick comment here about that. I get a funny feeling every time I hear him talk. And God knows, it may just be a funny feeling about his intense emotional reaction, though usually I feel good about real emotion.
I don`t know. It`s funny.
And I`ve heard reports about him in the household from people who lived there, were around him -- we talked to Rob yesterday who was in the house -- that Lee took a very strange role. He was very executive and protective as though he was guarding something that he knew, maybe.
I don`t know. We just don`t know.
OK. Anyway, it`s all Casey`s vortex. Let`s be fair.
Do you all agree with that?
OPRI: Yes.
BLOOM: Casey`s vortex? What does that mean?
PINSKY: Casey created this vortex. Her behavior created this entire vortex.
BLOOM: Because she`s a sociopath --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: There we go.
OPRI: It`s a nightmare she created.
PINSKY: Coming up, I`ve got some choice words for a caller who says Casey is a loving mother. You don`t want to miss that.
Also, while emotional testimony is an attention-grabber, can it compete with a mountain of evidence from the prosecution?
Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA DRANE BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: Did your daughter tell you that there was an accident involving the pool?
BAEZ: Objection, Judge. Outside the scope.
PERRY: Overruled.
C. ANTHONY: No, ma`am.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: All right. Now, my Twitter, e-mail and Facebook accounts have been blowing up with your comments about the Casey Anthony trial.
And by the way, I now have more than 11,000 of you guys following me on Twitter. Thank you for that, and join us if you`re not there. It`s @DrDrewHLN.
Let`s get to the phones.
First up, we have Loxi in Texas.
What`s going on?
LOXI, TEXAS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Loxi.
LOXI: After reading many blog comments, the majority of men think the evidence is not strong enough so far against Casey, whereas women are ready to execute her now. Any thoughts as to why that is?
PINSKY: You know, you`re going to put me on the spot here a little bit because I think -- and I`m smiling, but this is not such a happy thought -- that women reserve a very special aggression for other women. And just the thought -- well, I`ll tell you what, another woman seeing a mom act the way she acted is so infuriating, that that aggression is just unleashed.
And reasonably so, right? Reasonably so.
We have a Facebook question from Bea. She asked, "If the jury for some reason came back not guilty, what kind of life would Casey have?"
Do I think? I think she would disappear. And if she is a psychopath, which she`s been painted as, she`ll go on. She really won`t care, which is just the sick part of all this.
Let`s go back to the phones. We have Ken from Arizona.
Ken, go ahead.
KEN, ARIZONA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Ken.
KEN: That tape was not used to suffocate the baby. This was on accidental chloroform death.
Casey was a "loving mother." A loving mother leaves a favorite blanket and places a heart on the tape. And that tape was placed there in her mind to prevent insects and all manner of unmentionable creatures from entering her baby.
PINSKY: Ken, forgive me, but a loving mother does not chloroform her baby. I`m stunned that that`s OK parenting from your standpoint.
She may be a horrible mother who has ambivalent feelings, and did feel some degree of regret, wasn`t a complete monster, but come on now. Stop it.
Again, so often during my broadcasts I get the feelings of disgust. And this is one of those moments. I`m disgusted by that kind of parenting.
All right. We have Jan from Minnesota on the line. We`ll go ahead with her.
Let`s go, Jan.
JAN, MINNESOTA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Jan. You`re happier.
JAN: Apparently, unemotional psychopaths typically have some sort of threshold at which they finally break down and display emotion?
PINSKY: Not necessarily. Again, there`s gradations of all these things from sociopathy to psychopathy. And a true psychopath really doesn`t care. They care about protecting their own skin and that`s it. And a lot of people -- I`ve talked to profilers on this very show that believe Casey is more in that latter category.
Nick writes, "I see people calling Casey a psycho or whatever. How about all of us? Do we have some psychosis, ourselves, about the way we`re treating another human being?"
And boy, that is a great question. I`ve got to tell you, it`s one of the things that sort of captivates me about this case is us and why we`re so interested in this thing and why we can`t get enough of it.
I mean, look, there`s a -- first of all, I think it has something to do with the fact that we want justice for the little girl, which is appropriate. By the same token, there`s a car accident here and there are people really suffering.
Whatever the truth is, we`ve got check ourselves a little bit and think about, you know, why we jump to conclusions. OK? Be careful. We may be right, but just be careful.
I`m trying to make sense of this. I really am. We`re all trying to do it together.
And up next, Casey accuses her father and brother of molesting her. Are George and Lee Anthony sexual predators or victims of a desperate defense?
And more of Casey`s lies.
And later, a woman who prosecuted O.J. Simpson for murder, Marcia Clark. She joins me right here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the answer is actually relatively simple. She never was missing. Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was lead defense attorney, Jose Baez, dropping a bombshell on day one of the trial, claiming that Caylee had accidentally drowned. The explosive allegations continued when Baez said George was part of the cover-up to dispose of Caylee`s body and then accused him of molesting daughter, Casey, when she was a little girl. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: This child, at eight years old, learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, is George Anthony a sexual predator or is he a grieving grandfather who became trapped in yet another of his daughter`s lies? Lies, lies, and lies. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter, Casey Anthony?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: No, sir.
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: You`ve been a great dad, and you`ve been the best grandfather.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You love your daughter more than anything in the world?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.
I got within three feet of my daughter`s car. It smelled like a decomposed body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, where are the lies? I actually spoke to George`s ex- wife, people didn`t know there`s an ex-wife, who actually thinks very highly of George but thought he had a lying problem but also believed Casey had a lying problem. Only thing for sure in this trial, packed with lies, guys. Packed with lies. Again, I`m trying to understand this the way you are now.
So, joining me to help us out with this is criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh. Also back with us is bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla. He actually spent time in the Anthony home. So, Leonard, is George a monster or a grieving grandpa who got thrown under the bus by his daughter, who, herself, is the monster?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: He`s a grieving grandfather, and if you talk to anybody in that neighborhood around his house, they`ll tell you he loved that granddaughter more than anything else in the world. And he always spent as much time as he could with her. No doubt about it.
PINSKY: And Leonard, you --
PADILLA: Casey --
PINSKY: Yes.
PADILLA: Is a monster. She`s a monster.
PINSKY: Now, you spent time with both of them. Can you give us a little insight to what you observed to bring you to such a clear distinction between George being who he seems to be and Casey being the monster?
PADILLA: We spoke to probably 50 individuals in the neighborhood that saw George constantly with the child, pulling her in a little red wagon, walking her down the sidewalk, sitting out in the front yard with her. We also spoke to about 50 of Casey`s high school friends, post-high school friends, and they all said she`s a monster, she`s a liar, she doesn`t tell the truth, she doesn`t tell the truth when she doesn`t have to lie.
When we were there with her, like the one day she was showing off the tattoo, saying, it was in honor of her daughter, Caylee. Now, she knew Caylee was dead at the time. We didn`t. That was before the FBI came out with the announcement that there was decomposition and the hair band, death band on the hair. So, we are somewhat gullible about the fact that, OK, the child`s not dead, she had a tattoo made in her honor. And she said so.
PINSKY: But George, let me ask you this. When -- when did she switch from, as people are testifying, being this good mom to being this horrible, lying, egregious mom?
PADILLA: Well, I think she always had -- I think she always had a face that she dealt with the public. I think she loved her -- I think she actually loved her daughter. I don`t think she had a problem. That particular night, though, she used chloroform to try to put her to sleep. She overdosed her. The thing with the prosecution --
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hold on --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hold on, Leonard, hold on one second. Mark`s got something to say. Hold on.
EIGLARSH: Well, no, what are you afraid of, Len? I mean, what is this based on? Your four minutes of bailing her out? I don`t understand where you can conclusively say certain things that you do.
PADILLA: You know, that`s what I like about the Mark Brothers. All they want to do is not be sensible and listen to situations and say, OK --
EIGLARSH: I`m listening.
PADILLA: Are you listening? Are you listening?
EIGLARSH: I mean, no disrespect, but Drew could probably back me up on this. I think you suffer from what they call spotlightis enviosis.
(CROSSTALK)
PADILLA: Let me tell you.
PINSKY: Mark, what`s Leonard saying? Leonard, do you have response to that?
PADILLA: Hey, grasshopper, listen. You might learn something.
PINSKY: You there?
PADILLA: Experience is the best teacher. I`m here. Now, there`s no doubt there`s a lot of chloroform in the trunk of the car. Tremendous amounts. Tremendous amounts of chloroform. She was looking up chloroform on the computer. She learned how to make chloroform. When she mentioned to Tracy that she knew what chloroform was about as far as putting people to sleep, she wasn`t joking about it. She says, yes, I know about chloroform. I know it puts people to sleep. This was after we had bailed her out. And it`s not --
PINSKY: All right. Hold on a second, George -- Leonard. Hold on a second. George Anthony isn`t the only person that Casey accused of molesting her. Jailhouse letters she wrote to a fellow inmate in 2008 also incriminate her brother, Lee, who surprisingly has remained one of her staunchest allies. Watch this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: This family is united. C.M.A.
She told me that she had been kidnapped. That the nanny took her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you recall about the smell of the car?
LEE ANTHONY: Just that it was very potent, very strong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Leonard, I`m trying to get you and Mark to play nicely in the sandbox here, but I`m going to ask you first. Do you think that there`s evidence that Lee molested Casey?
PADILLA: No. None whatsoever. He`s not that kind of kid.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on. Mark, what is your response?
EIGLARSH: I`ll play nice with him. First of all, I`ll join -- listen, we can join forces. We`re OK because I do agree with him on that point, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
EIGLARSH: There is no evidence of Lee at all molesting because they never asked him the question.
PINSKY: You`re right. First of all, I didn`t hear what you said because I`m distracted by the hat and actually a little envious. I want to wear a hat, myself. By the end of the segment, you have to put the hat on my head (ph). But Leonard, we`re joining your team, buddy. We`re trying to get what we can from you, but we`re concerned. We`re concerned. Mark raised concerns about sort of, you know, what you were basing your conclusions on rather than just the collecting of evidence.
EIGLARSH: No question. If I want to know how long it took you to post the paperwork to get her out of jail, you`re an expert, but I don`t know about anything else beyond that.
PINSKY: How do you respond to that, Leonard?
PADILLA: Did you go to law school, Mark?
EIGLARSH: Yes. That`s what my parents tell me.
PADILLA: Did you go to law school?
EIGLARSH: Yes, I did. Yes.
PADILLA: Well, did you go to law school? OK. I went to law school. Do you have a law degree?
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PADILLA: Do you have a law degree?
EIGLARSH: This is blistering. You should join the defense team.
PADILLA: Yes or no, do you have a law degree?
EIGLARSH: Go on. Yes, I do. Yes, I do, Leonard.
PADILLA: Yes. I`ve got a law degree. Are you the president, chairman of the board of a law school? Are you?
EIGLARSH: No. So, you win. That`s it. You win. You win, I guess.
PADILLA: I`ve been for 28 years.
EIGLARSH: You got me.
PADILLA: Is that what you want to base anything on? Absolutely not. Base it on my experience of 36 years of being involved in hundreds, hundreds of situations like this. Hundreds.
PINSKY: All right. Leonard, all kidding aside, I do want to get --
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: I do want to say that I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing what you`ve learned, because look, the reality is what I`ve said repeatedly -- I can`t take myself seriously. I`m sorry. Leonard, maybe you ought to take the hat off so we don`t keep putting the hats on, but the one thing I keep saying is -- you know, kidding aside, there`s a -- there we go. That`s what I`m talking about. That`s what I`m talking -- oh, shoot, I`m distracted again.
But the fact is, listen, we have to get serious here. Oh, there we go. We have to get serious here because I got to keep bringing it back to two things which is, I want to understand this and Leonard was there, he was on, you know, ground level, eyeball to eyeball with these people. He`s got something to tell us. I want to figure this thing out and understand what`s true, even though -- hold on a second, Leonard.
EIGLARSH: When he came on the scene, it was all over. She was being watched --
PINSKY: But even though you reminded me many times the truth doesn`t matter, it`s about whether you can prove or not prove her guilt. I`m interested in the truth. But, remind ourselves that this is really about a little girl, ultimately. This is a little girl whose life was -- the words don`t describe how disgusted I get when I think about what happened to this little girl, OK? So, remember that, always stay focused on that.
And when we return -- Leonard, thank you for joining us, and Mark, of course, always, thank you. He`ll stay with us.
When we return, the growing mountain of evidence and heap of lies, lies, lies, and lies. After this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: And Zany`s opinion, Casey was not being a good mother to Caylee or wouldn`t be a good mother for Caylee. And she was taking her, taking Caylee from her to teach her a lesson and also told her not to go to the police or anything like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. (INAUDIBLE). Finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Just torture. Casey`s mom, Cindy, called 911. It is, perhaps, one of the most defining moments in this entire story. The call is made after Casey finally admits to her mother that Caylee has been missing for 31 days. That, of course, leads to that desperate search for the toddler. Sadly, the search ended six months later when Caylee`s remains were found in a wooded area near the Anthony home.
Marcia Clark, prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson criminal case is here as well as Attorney Mark Eiglarsh. They`re both back with us. Marcia, Cindy might love her daughter, but her 911 call could be what actually convict her.
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It may be. It may very well be. And don`t forget, though, I mean, to me, one of the most compelling pieces of evidence in this case is the behavior of Casey, herself.
PINSKY: The lying and the horrible parenting.
CLARK: Not just the lying, but the behavior that`s euphoric. In the 31 days that her daughter is lying dead and she well knows it, she`s behaving in a manner that is absolutely joyful, gleeful. And if there`s any single thing that other than the duct tape, which I think is the murder weapon, that will convict her, it is the knowledge that jury now has that while she knew the child was dead, she was out there partying, hot body contests and all the rest of it.
EIGLARSH: I thoroughly disagree with Marcia.
PINSKY: What do you say?
EIGLARSH: Not because I do.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: I just always wanted to say that.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Go ahead. You bring up the duct tape as a murder weapon. Have you seen a case where duct tape is a murder weapon?
CLARK: No.
PINSKY: Has anybody seen that?
CLARK: I don`t think so.
PINSKY: That seems weird. So, to me, I mean, I had --
EIGLARSH: I had garlic crusher once --
PINSKY: But no, not --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Seriously?
PINSKY: Well it`s a serious bodily injury case, and apparently, he really run (ph) with one.
PINSKY: To the skull? OK. But, duct tape, I mean, I`ve handled dead bodies before, and the one thing that`s problematic is stuff comes out of their mouth and nose for quite a while. And I can imagine someone taping up to sort of cover what they`re doing. I mean, if somebody is trying to cover their tracks, whatever they did, they may be trying to cover up.
Casey has remained a suspect all along, but she refused to break. This is the part that I found captivating. Despite intensive and threatening police interrogation. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told us is a lie, every single thing. Yes. And you can`t keep sitting here and telling us the same thing and getting constantly over and over and over again we`re disproving everything that you`re telling us. You`re telling us that you lied to us. You`re telling us you`ve given us misinformation. Everything you`re telling us. OK? This needs to end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, don`t you find this committed, fearless, convincing lying incredible?
EIGLARSH: It`s unbelievable. And the defense is hoping that, first, they`re going to believe that George molested her. Here`s the problem. So far, we haven`t heard one piece of evidence that can seal the deal for the prosecutors. There was a note written by Casey while she was in jail, and it says that Lee did such and such to me, and I think that my father did it to me when I was younger, too.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: I think my father might have done it to me.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: Wait a second. That`s entirely different than this alleged chronic, you know --
PINSKY: Yes. Huge, tremendous, overt sexual abuse.
EIGLARSH: You don`t get past the first hurdle then.
PINSKY: Yes, right, exactly. Now, among the most damning information that we heard about was the smell of death coming from Casey`s car. Watch Cindy talking about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: So, I went and got some Febreze, and I sprayed the doll and I sprayed Febreze all through the car thinking that that might help the odor. I sprayed the front and the back. I used pretty much a whole can of Febreze.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You know, although, Leonard has said some sort of damning things about Cindy, she`s the only one in this whole thing that I believe. I mean, she seems genuine. That`s how I would behave if my life had been shattered like that. Now, the one thing everyone agrees, a lot of experienced people, the smell of death was in the car.
High chloroform levels in Casey`s trunk, intriguing searches on her computer about death and bodily injury, and chloroform. The list goes on and on, and of course, the amazing, amazing lies. Marcia and Mark, what do you, guys, think -- I`ll start with Mark -- is the most single damaging bit of evidence or testimony we heard?
EIGLARSH: What the defense did. I don`t mean to trash the defense any more than I have to.
PINSKY: But you`ve been doing it all along, so you might as well.
EIGLARSH: Well, it comes from the heart. I`m a defense lawyer. And I know some of these lawyers involved. They shifted the burden unnecessarily. The prosecutors have the sole burden of proof, and they came up there, and they said, here`s exactly how it happened. Unfortunately, there are so many flaws in their version, and all the jurors have to do is say, well, we believe the prosecutor`s side more than the defense. That should never happen. That`s a violation of the constitution, what they did.
PINSKY: I don`t know about that.
EIGLARSH: It is not. A little too much.
PINSKY: But the fact is they shifted the burden of proof on to themselves, and there`s no proof (ph) --
EIGLARSH: They didn`t have to do it. No one knows how this happened. Let it be.
PINSKY: All right. All right. Fair enough. Marcia.
CLARK: All right. But they don`t have to show it yet. We are not in the defense case. I would expect, actually, with that opening statement, and I have to agree with Mark, you know, you don`t give that kind of detail --
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
EIGLARSH: Mom, Marcia Clark agrees with me.
(LAUGHTER)
EIGLARSH: She prosecuted O.J.
CLARK: As much as I wanted to thoroughly disagree, I tried. But, the truth is, they shouldn`t have pinned themselves down that way. It`s one thing to say that you`re going to see at the end of this case, the prosecution didn`t prove it, but they didn`t do that. They gave an actual scenario, and when it comes right down to it, now, they`re going to have to deliver, because this jury will not forget those promises that they made.
So, they`re going to have to put at least a mental health expert up there to say, this is a child abuse accommodation syndrome. She made up these lies because she is delusional and all the rest of it. Unfortunately, in my opinion, what we see so far is these are opportunistic lies. They do not just coincidentally all help her. They help her because she`s a liar, pathologically.
EIGLARSH: They`re claiming Lee abused her. He said that in opening statement. They didn`t ask Lee the question.
PINSKY: Did you abuse her?
EIGLARSH: And you know what, that was the smartest thing they did, though.
PINSKY: Why?
EIGLARSH: Because quite frankly, because he would have said, obviously, no, and now, the jurors are looking at him, and they`ll believe he didn`t abuse her either potentially. That was a smart move, but the point is there won`t be any evidence of it.
PINSKY: That`s my thing. The only evidence we have heard is that she had her shirt up or something, there`s something vague, and that certainly doesn`t lead to what you called a combination syndrome where people have very, very serious character problems, severe lying, addictions. I`m starting to wonder if addiction is a bigger part of this, too, because, you know, we hear she was OK, then suddenly, things got really bad with her. Let me ask this. Both you guys. I know Mark -- I`ve given you grief about this for this whole week that--
EIGLARSH: Thanks for having me on by the way. I enjoyed it.
PINSKY: It`s been a pleasure.
EIGLARSH: The suite`s been fabulous.
PINSKY: It`s not just about guilt or innocence, but it`s about proven or not proven. Let me ask you something, though
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PINSKY: Do you think when this is all done, those of us that are sitting trying to make sense of this? Everyone that`s watching with us tonight wants to make sense of this and wants justice for this little girl. Do you think we`re going to know the truth when this is all over? Is that going to happen?
EIGLARSH: I have very strong feelings about that.
PINSKY: And will there be justice for this child? Go.
EIGLARSH: One hundred percent absolutely no. We will never know exactly how this happened because of her. That`s the problem.
PINSKY: Because of the lying.
EIGLARSH: And everyone`s got a theory.
PINSKY: So, I just got to move on. Go on to something else.
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: OK, wait.
EIGLARSH: They know for sure how this is going to happen --
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: We`re not going to know. No, we`re never going to know. You know what we will know? We`ll know for sure when the defense is done whether we believe fully that she did it, and it was homicide by her as opposed to --
EIGLARSH: How did this happen, Marcia?
CLARK: No, no. We`ll never know.
EIGLARSH: We`ll never know. That is so frustrating.
CLARK: Yes.
PINSKY: And it`s very tough. It`s very tough to really watch this and think there might not be the kind of satisfaction we all hope to get from this and on behalf of this beautiful little girl. Mark, Marcia, thank you.
When we come back, I`m talking with my jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: You`ll hear evidence that Casey has a brother and he, too, wanted to follow in his father`s footsteps, and on certain occasions, when he was a teenager, he attempted to also touch his sister, although, it didn`t go as far.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Joining us now is Brett Schulman. He was one of the very first people to sit on my jury, Dr. Drew`s jury, and is now our courtroom observer in residence. I have characterized him as Barney Fife because he sort of deputized himself and has taken on the role of making peace out of the dramatic chaos. Welcome back, Brett.
BRETT SCHULMAN, FREQUENT ANTHONY TRIAL ATTENDEE: Great to be here, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I appreciate it. You`ve been following closely since day one. What are your thoughts on the trial, so far?
SCHULMAN: I can tell you what, if it was a 15-round fight, the state would definitely be winning right now, and the defense would be laying on the ground and not looking too good.
PINSKY: You know, what do you make of Casey`s reaction to some of the testimony we`ve been seeing? I mean, we`ve seen these horrible, horrible things that, to my estimation, I would expect to see her reacting the way Cindy did when she was asked to sort of revisit the horror of what has happened here. What do you feel about Casey`s response to the testimony?
SCHULMAN: Well, all I have to say is, it`s about time. Obviously, on the first day, she did show some type of emotion, but I have to make a little observation here. I watched her yesterday when the jury was inside the room. When they left and they were not present today, she was looking at the same pictures with no emotion whatsoever, and I think that that`s obvious.
PINSKY: Do you -- so you think, perhaps, that this woman is the monster we suspect she is and is maybe either "A" acting or becoming "B" becoming emotional when the gravity of this that`s crushing in upon her becomes real?
SCHULMAN: You are 100 percent correct. It seems like she is cold, callous, and when it`s time and it`s show time, all she does is let it all out because everybody`s watching her who is very important, and that is the jury.
PINSKY: What do you feel is the most damning piece of evidence that`s been presented so far?
SCHULMAN: The obvious most damaging evidence is when Dr. G. put the smack down on Cheney and showed in her opinion as a professional and gave scientific evidence that she showed just cause that it was a homicide using duct tape.
PINSKY: And Barney, have you found an Andy Griffith there for you with you to help you out with the chaos that emerges in the line every morning?
SCHULMAN: Well, as a former Orange County Deputy sheriff back in the 1980s, I don`t need one. I can do it myself. And when I am there and I am present and accounted for, I take action, myself.
PINSKY: All right. And God bless you for doing so, because that looks like a dangerous group you`re dealing with every morning. They get surly quite regularly. And also, thank you for joining us here.
SCHULMAN: Thank you, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Now -- excuse me. Another incredible week from the Casey Anthony murder trial. I want to remind people, as I always do, that we`re all trying to figure this thing out together. Right? Certainly, I could be wrong about some of the theories I float here, and I`m happy to be wrong. Changing my mind, expands my knowledge, helps me understand things better, although, some of this stuff is so horrific. I don`t know about you, but I can`t get my head around lots of it.
And, ultimately, we all have to remember the child that was sacrificed to whatever happened here. This is -- so much of this is egregious. The lying, the horrible parenting. Please, love your children. Take good care of them. Let`s do the right thing. And thank you for watching. See you next time.
END
