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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Conrad Murray`s Attorney Accuses Investigator of Mistakes
Aired October 06, 2011 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Where is our camera?
Hi, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, and we are going to have complete analysis of today`s explosive developments in court. But let`s continue with the testimony as a toxicologist explains some very complicated stuff and even fumbles on some of the words, because that`s how dense this material is. But it is crucial. Let`s listen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So am I correct in assuming, you cannot tell the proportion of Lidocaine versus Propofol in that solution?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a double negative.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You cannot tell what proportion Lidocaine versus Propofol was in that lower line, is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We cannot tell the proportions, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And you cannot tell what the proportions of Lidocaine and Propofol were in the syringe?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, in each of those items -- I guess it`s labeled up there as 159 and 158. What, the y-port and the syringe. They each have flumazenil. Is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, there was no flumazenil in the bag or the I.V. line?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know how the flumazenil relates in proportion to the Lidocaine and Propofol?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Question vague.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I can`t...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overruled. You may answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t tell the proportions of any of the three drugs with the analysis that we performed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a syringe, there was a limited amount of solution. I believe you testified 0.17 grams?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 0.17 grams, you`re correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so was that a complicating factor in determining the proportion?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s certainly a limiting factor. It`s a very small amount.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that would make it difficult to determine what the proportions were?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of drug in that solution, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Now, with respect to item number 158, below the "Y" port, there was no limited amount of fluid there, was there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, vague.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overruled. You may answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The quantity of fluid was 0.47 grams or mils that was in the "Y" connector leading all the way through the short tubing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was plenty enough to analyze for proportions, wasn`t it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Quantity wise, probably.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. The -- there was another medical evidence one, is that -- that`s the syringe -- well, that`s the syringe that Investigator Fleak found in the bedroom without a needle on it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct. The barrel and the needle were separated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, all we had was the barrel of the syringe. Is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, we had the barrel as well as we had a needle. It came as two parts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I think Miss Fleak changed her mind on that...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, argumentative, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The objection is sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this witness did not go to the crime scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sustaining the objection. Re-ask the question, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your records indicate that the needle and the barrel were separate?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The notations that I`m taking a look at right now, barrel with plunger and needle with cap.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that, as far -- your records indicate that that barrel and plunger had a needle with them?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you let me know when this can be -- I don`t want to interrupt your flow, but...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is fine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that all right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I speak to counsel for just a moment? Turn on the lights, please.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is it...
All right. Well, we`re getting to the end of the trial day, but very, very crucial information coming out in court, and we`re going to the analyze it all in just a moment on ISSUES. And we`ve got Marcia Clark, the famous prosecutor from the O.J. Simpson trial, which took place in the very same courthouse, here to analyze this case.
Stay right there. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe that the prosecution should really go on and stop the trial right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Michael! Justice for Michael!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Michael! Justice for Michael!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Michael! Justice for Michael!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael was murdered. He was a doctor. He had a role to play and a job to do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. Conrad Murray is an innocent man. He and Michael Jackson were friends. The tape proves absolutely nothing.
MICHAEL JACKSON, POP STAR: He`s the greatest entertainer in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the prosecution is really trying to cloud the issues here.
JACKSON: I hurt, you know? I hurt.
CONRAD MURRAY, ON TRIAL FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: Your honor, I am an innocent man. Innocent man. Innocent man.
DON BERRIGAN, FORMER MANAGER, JACKSON FIVE: You can`t deal with a man like Michael, who`s this big a star, when he becomes so powerful, these folks will not listen to advice. They`re going to do it their way, and it can kill them if they`re not careful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The defense goes on the attack. Shock waves from the Michael Jackson audio recording continue to ripple through the justice system.
Good evening, everyone. Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live from Los Angeles where Conrad Murray`s lawyers struck back today, and they struck back hard.
But the biggest revelation of the day, Dr. Murray`s fingerprint was found on the Propofol bottle that prosecutors believe killed Michael Jackson. However, in a twist, four mystery fingerprints with were also found on items right around Michael Jackson`s deathbed, including the saline bag that prosecutors say was holding the killer Propofol.
Police tested everyone in and around the mansion, but they cannot identify who left those mystery fingerprints. So, whose prints were they? And can the defense use this to their advantage for reasonable doubt?
Meantime, look at this. It`s the defendant, Dr. Conrad Murray, his girlfriend/witness, Nicole Alvarez -- you remember the one, "My body is my instrument" -- and their son out on the town just a couple of nights ago, looking like they`re having a pretty good time. Actually, this is the very night that Nicole Alvarez testified.
Now, the defendant doesn`t look particularly worried, does he? But there are still ripples from that explosive audio recording, made by the defendant of a very drugged out Michael Jackson. And warning, it`s distressing to hear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Don`t have enough hope, no more hope. That`s the next generation that`s going to save our planet, starting with -- we`ll talk about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s your take? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877- 586-7297.
With me tonight, one of America`s most famous prosecutors, Marcia Clark from the O.J. Simpson trial that went down in the very same courthouse, and her newest book, "Guilt by Degrees," is out next year. And I, for one, I`m going to be first in line to read it. Your books are absolutely amazing. Everybody should check them out.
Marcia, you heard the Michael Jackson audio in its entirety. There`s so much debate whether it helped the prosecution or the defense. What impact do you think it will have on this trial?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think it`s going to help the prosecution, because it shows what Conrad Murray knew of Michael Jackson`s condition. And he was taping it himself. I mean, it`s kind of weird that he did. And yet, a part of me kind of thinks, suspects, that he made that tape for the purpose of a souvenir or to sell it.
You know, there`s obvious commercial value in the window into Michael Jackson and how he was when he was not on stage. But it`s actually, I think, going to be very damning at the end of the day for him and very helpful to the prosecution to show, he should have treated Michael Jackson better. He should have paid better attention to him, because look at his condition.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, we`ve heard a lot of what I would call scientific gobbledygook today, where -- to the point -- we`ll play that in a second, even the coroner`s expert couldn`t pronounce all these words.
But you, Dr. Reef Kareem, founder and director of the Control Center of Beverly Hills, an addictionologist, found something fascinating in the coroner`s documents. Tell us. Try to explain it in people`s terms, because it is crucial.
DR. REEF KAREEM, ADDICTION EXPERT: OK. So of the gobbledygook of all this stuff here, one of the medications that was prescribed is flumazenil. Flumazenil is a benzodiazepam antagonist. Big, big words, but basically what it means is it`s an antidote. It reverses the sedation, and it reverses the respiratory depression that these medications cause. The Ativan, the Lorazepam, the Versed, the Midazolam.
The other medications all combine together to decrease your respiratory drive and to really sedate you. This was a medication that was prescribed, apparently, by him, because it was in the document here, that reverses that. So why would somebody give that antidote reversal medication unless they knew they were playing with fire with all of these different medications that synergistically could cause somebody to lose their breathing and possibly go into cardiac arrest?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you`re saying the presence of this drug in the tubing shows that he knew exactly what he was dealing with and was kind of playing a dangerous game of trying to sort of walk a fine line and using this to sort of rein in the other drugs.
KAREEM: Exactly. It`s like pharmacology cocktails. It`s like, OK, I`m going to give a little of this, a little of this, a little of this -- oh, might be too much. Better throw this one in. It means basically that he knew what he was dealing with. And he wanted...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s not how doctors are supposed to operate.
Now, here`s a problem for the prosecution. This is the prosecution`s case, but the defense hammered coroner investigator Elissa Fleak when she took the stand, and watch her admit to some mistakes today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED CHERNOFF, CONRAD MURRAY`S ATTORNEY: Miss Fleak, would you agree with me you made a substantial number of mistakes in your investigation of this case?
ELISSA FLEAK, INVESTIGATOR: Is it a mistake? I could have described it in more detail.
CHERNOFF: You could have taken a picture if you were taking the bottle out of the bag, if it was there, right?
FLEAK: I could have, yes.
CHERNOFF: Did you ever take possession of that juice box?
FLEAK: I did not collect the juice bottle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s review the flubs. There`s about six of them. She left a fingerprint on a syringe. She left her fingerprint on a syringe! She moved medicines before photographing them. Her notes about the gloves and their locations contradict the photos of the gloves. She never photographed the key piece of evidence, the Propofol bottle, while it was still inside the I.V. bag that was holding it.
And lastly, she did not collect a juice bottle, and the defense keeps -- the criminal defense attorney is now scheduled to argue that Michael Jackson used that untested juice bottle and filled it with Propofol and may have chug-a-lugged it. How bad is this for the prosecution, these flubs? Keith Sullivan, are you there, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we have...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, we`re going to go back...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, how bad -- go ahead. Go ahead.
KEITH SULLIVAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s very damaging for the prosecution. I mean, for the crime scene investigator to show up and not even gather the critical evidence, the smoking gun, the Propofol. It was gathered four days after the fact. The investigator`s fingerprints are on the syringe. The investigator never tests the juice bottle that`s next to Michael Jackson`s bed.
This is critical. I thought it was an excellent, excellent cross- examination by the defense. It took about one hour. He had the jury laughing two or three times. Exemplary cross-examination, and he scored great points and set up his defense for summation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Marcia Clark, I hate to bring up a phrase that you probably don`t like to hear, -- my apologies in advance -- but this whole pattern of blaming the collections started with the O.J. Simpson case, with the garbage-in, garbage-out defense style. And now every big case does it. If they have a really -- they`re dealing with a mountain of evidence, what they do is say, "Oh, it was collected in a very sloppy fashion." Your response?
CLARK: Well, look, mistakes are always going to be made. There`s no such thing as a perfect case in terms of the investigation, the prosecution. Everyone makes mistakes. Are they critical? That`s the issue.
For example, having strayed fingerprints from the investigators on something happens all the time. Should it happen? No, but it`s a mistake. That`s why you keep a log of the people who handle the evidence, who are at the crime scene, so you can rule them out if you have a fingerprint that doesn`t belong to either a victim or a defendant. And they do, and they did. They identified it. No big deal.
That they didn`t collect the juice bottle, that is unfortunate. Will it actually allow them to argue that that`s how Michael Jackson got hold of the Propofol and drank it himself? That I`m not so sure of. Because I do know that drinking Propofol is something extremely difficult to do and painful.
So that -- and, I have to say, the finding of Propofol in the stomach of Michael Jackson turns out to be not the result of ingesting orally, but because there was bleed-back inside of him. In other words, it bled into it stomach. It didn`t mean that it was drunk by him.
So I don`t know that the failure to collect the juice bottle is as critical a mistake as they`re going to want to make it seem.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it certainly wouldn`t be if you were one of the jurors. But I don`t know if the jurors are absorbing all of this in the same matter.
I believe we have a caller. Nicki, your question or thought, Nicki?
CALLER: Hey, Jane, how are you today?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey. I`m doing great. What`s your question?
CALLER: Jane, I`ve got a question and I`ve got a couple of comments, but I want to ask you a question first. How long -- is there a time frame on how long the jury is supposed to go into the room after the case is over and deliberate? I mean, can they all go...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, let me. Nicki, I`ve got to stop you there. We`re short on time, but it`s a very good question. Marcia Clark?
CLARK: No, there`s no time. They go in, and they have as much time or as little time as they want to take to deliberate.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Last night on ISSUES, I did an exclusive interview with Don Berrigan. He was the publicist for the Jackson Five, who knew Michael Jackson when he was a little kid very, very well. Listen to some of the disturbing audio from Michael Jackson played in court yesterday and then listen to this explosive comment from don.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Don`t have enough hope, no more hope.
BERRIGAN: I think this doctor is being railroaded. And he may have made some misjudgments, but, you can`t deal with a guy like Michael who`s this big a star when he becomes so powerful. These -- in general, these kind of folks will not listen to advice. They`re going to do it their way and it can kill them if you`re not careful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Quick response, Marcia?
CLARK: What? Absolutely not. that`s ridiculous. That is just ridiculous. Michael Jackson was not holding a gun to Conrad Murray`s head saying, "Give me the Propofol or you`re dead." You know, the doctor obviously had free will, and he can refuse to do it.
A doctor, a lawyer, all of us have duty of care that we owe to the client. Whether they like what we advise or not, they have to listen to it. And we have to give it. We don`t just cave in and say, "OK, whatever you want." That`s ridiculous.
KAREEM: He has a point in regards to addiction care of big celebrities. Big celebrities do not want to do what you want them to do. But as Marcia said, it`s free will. That doctor was in over his head, didn`t realize what he was getting into, or he did and he was negligent, and we saw the outcome.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, everybody arguing over that audiotape and whether it`s going to help the prosecution or the defense.
Next, Michael Jackson`s childhood friend, on the other side. He was in the Partridge family. You won`t believe who we`ve got exclusively.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICOLE ALVAREZ, CONRAD MURRAY`S GIRLFRIEND: As a professional actress, my daily duties consist of maintaining my instrument, going on several castings throughout town, meeting with different casting directors.
DEBORAH BRAZIL, PROSECUTOR: When you refer to an instrument, what are you referring to?
ALVAREZ: Myself.
BRAZIL: I see.
ALVAREZ: Myself. As an actor, your instrument is yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s her own instrument. OK. Excuse me. My instrument, I`m preserving it.
Here`s a photo of Conrad Murray and that witness for the prosecution, Nicole Alvarez. His girlfriend and the mother of his child, and you see them there, just a couple nights ago, Tuesday night, right after she testified for the prosecution, and she seemed extremely happy to be on the witness stand. In fact, a lot of people thought she was auditioning for some unnamed casting director out there. And the line about how she works on her instrument during the day, which is herself, has become sort of the -- the line of this trial so far.
And I`ve got to go to Marcia Clark. It`s starting to remind me more and more of the O.J. trial. Is Nicole Alvarez this trial`s Kato Kaolin? And I think we all remember Kato Kaolin. We have a photograph of him, too.
CLARK: I don`t need to see it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, you`ve seen it.
CLARK: I remember.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You don`t want to see this again.
CLARK: Yes, I don`t want to see this again. He never talked about his instrument, though.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank God!
CLARK: She`s a lot more fun.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But I mean, there is always somebody in these big trials that gets up there and does something goofy that just kind of, I guess, robs the trial of its pathos, is what I would say.
CLARK: The problem with Kato, though, is that it wasn`t so much goofy as hostile and resistant and definitely trying to hide the stuff that he knew, and he knew a lot. And it was only inadvertence that led me to find all the things he`d been hiding from me, all along, from day one. And then I wound up with defense discovery that let me take him as a hostile witness and cross-examine him. She`s not doing that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she actually was so giddy while she was testifying, somebody talked to her, and I think it might have been somebody representing Conrad Murray, saying, "Hey, you`re not doing me any favors." But very quickly, how do you deal with somebody who`s a witness for the prosecution, but they`re sleeping with the defendant. And it`s basically got to be a hostile witness, unless they`re very angry that he has a whole lot of other girlfriends.
CLARK: Well, that`s a possibility. Conrad Murray was a very busy man. So that`s a possibility.
But it is a fine line that you walk. When you have somebody who`s really basically in the defense camp, but they`ve got to be on your list. You have no choice. The prosecution had no choice but to call her. She was one of the people on the phone. She`s an important, almost a recipient -- almost what you call an eye -- an earwitness. So they had to call her. And then you just have to hope that you can keep her honest in her prior statement.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yesterday in court, the defense table, and actually today as well, resembled a pharmacy. Look at al these bottles and bottles and bottles and vials, containing all sorts of medication and various pieces of medical equipment. There they are. They were retrieved from Michael Jackson`s home, most of them from right around his bed.
Brian Oxman, you`re the attorney for Joe Jackson. Does this amazing - - it`s like a pharmacy right there in his bedroom. Does it shock you or not?
BRIAN OXMAN, ATTORNEY FOR JOE JACKSON: Absolutely, Jane. It`s disturbing. I think that`s the real cause of our concern. It is disturbing that there was so much of this stuff.
And yet, you have Michael Jackson, who has got Ephedrine in his system, which means he was getting up for the performance and then he`s being brought down at night. Jane, this is just wrong. We call this in medicine poly pharmacy, many pharmaceuticals. He was drugged to death, Jane. And it`s just very disturbing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. More controversy, and up next, we`re going to talk to Michael Jackson`s childhood friend from the...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray never once mentioned the administration of Propofol.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sure you`re aware he had an episode last night. He`s sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the statements of his health published by the press, let me say, they`re all malicious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you need to get a blood test on him. We`ve got to see what he`s doing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there some regulation that said you could only ship medication to a hospital?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no regulation that I know of.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Dr. Murray ever mention to you having administered Propofol to Michael Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he did not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Another explosive day in court. While everyone`s still reeling from the audio of Michael Jackson speaking -- very drugged, slurring his words, just a few days before his death. In the audio, Michael mourns his lost childhood.
And with me, here today, someone who knew Michael as a child -- that`s right -- hung out with Michael Jackson. They were both child stars. Rick Segall grew up in front of the cameras as well, most famously for his role as adorable little Ricky on "The Partridge Family". Now, there they are together, ok. Michael Jackson and Ricky, Rick Segall, who`s now all grown up. Check this out. Here is Rick is on the show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CASSIDY, SINGER: Hi, Ricky.
RICK SEGALL, FORMER CHILD ACTOR: Hi.
CASSIDY: Would you like to sing a song for us.
SEGALL: Yes.
CASSIDY: You do. Are you nervous?
SEGALL: Yes.
CASSIDY: Are you sure you still want to sing?
SEGALL: Yes.
CASSIDY: What would you like to sing?
SEGALL: How about the song we rehearsed this morning?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rick, you were one adorable little boy. Look at that. You were very handsome. And you still are very handsome.
SEGALL: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to thank you for being here. But first I want to play a little snippet of that very disturbing audio that was played in court yesterday. Listen, and we warn you, it is disturbing, to Michael Jackson in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: I love them because I didn`t have a childhood. I had no childhood. I feel their pain. I feel their hurt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rick, your thoughts?
SEGALL: Well, that`s not a new message. It`s just never been heard like that. He consistently talked about his childhood and how he didn`t -- for somebody who was so joy-filled, he still felt that was completely lost. And it was, to a lot of extent, because he grew up in the industry and wanted so much to have a childhood. That`s why he was attracted to children; that`s why I know that we connected early on, because there was that connectivity of wanting to recapture something of his childhood.
And that`s one of the reasons, I think, he loved children so much, because he wanted to make sure that children, especially abused children or children who came from really depraved backgrounds could be made well, so that they could have a childhood he didn`t get to have.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think the people who are not in showbiz, and who are not in showbiz as children, have no idea what it was like. I went to professional children`s school, I did go out on auditions, I just wasn`t successful at it. My feet fell out and my mom wasn`t a stage mother. She didn`t drive me hard enough. She would let me go celebrate whether I got an audition or didn`t.
SEGALL: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But there is something very painful for child actors. Tell us about your experiences when you can`t be a kid because you`re working from the age of a toddler.
SEGALL: Yes. It`s definitely that way regardless of the child actor, but to equate any child actor to the stature that Michael was as a child, and then where he went afterwards, there hasn`t been anybody.
And that`s one of the things that I think was painful for Michael was that he had no empathy from anyone, because there was no one who had reached that level of success as a child and then reached that as an adult. So there is a definite isolation that takes place.
And if you do have stage parents -- which I didn`t, thank God -- there can come this total isolation. Even at the -- like where I was, I was nationally known, but it was for a short period of time. And for the rest of my childhood, though I stayed in the industry, I didn`t have international prominence. And there`s something about that international prominence and the need to be in the spotlight all of the time, that adds a level to this that I don`t think anybody could even begin to comprehend that Michael had.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, when you`re talking about this, I remember somebody that I knew that I worked with, and we did some TV together, we shared vegetarian lifestyle. And he never shared with me that he was a child actor. He hid that from me. And, ultimately, he was also very, very depressed and came to a sad end. How did you escape the depression?
SEGALL: There, but for the grace of God, go I. I believe that completely and providential oversight, as well as a mom and dad, who even though they divorced continued to love me and continued to consistently tell me throughout my acting, if you want to stop, stop. There wasn`t this -- and I want to cast no aspersions at all upon Michael`s family or his parents -- but we`ve heard him say how there was this consistent pressure, particularly from his dad, that Michael himself was part of, though he loved to perform. There was this constant drive to be Michael Jackson, the superstar, versus Michael the son or just Michael the human.
And so for me, I didn`t have any of those pressures that Michael had.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He has, in fact, said that his father whipped him during rehearsal, hit him with a belt if he made a mistake while he was doing a routine.
SEGALL: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: If he didn`t move perfectly, boom, the belt came down. Now, what was that like and did you ever hear that from Michael himself when you were a kid?
SEGALL: No, no. The time I spent with Michael was -- and it`s why there`s so much of this that needs to be talked about, and we need to have an answer about the case, and there needs to be something that`s done, because there are so many questions about the case. But the thing about Michael, my memories of him were only and always joy-filled; always and only him wanting to be happy, having a good time.
It was around the time of "Off the Wall, going into "Thriller", which for all of us is our favorite memories of Michael, because that`s when it was about the moonwalk and it was about his smile and it was about his brilliance and becoming the number one artist of all time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: When you knew him, how old were you and how old was he?
SEGALL: We met -- he was 11 years my senior. So I was 4, he was 15, and we remained in contact with each other, especially in `80 and `81. So I was 11 -- from 15 until he was 20.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you were one of his "special friends" then, quote/unquote.
SEGALL: Yes, with broken periods. We would be connected and then disconnect. And then we`d be connected. And when we were connected, there were times he would sneak out and spend time; we`d be on the phone a lot. I`d go backstage before and after concerts and talk with him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Even though he was 11 years older.
SEGALL: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you ever find anything strange about that?
SEGALL: No. Never.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And this is what some people are saying about this audiotape, because I covered the Michael Jackson child molestation trial, and a lot of people would sort of, they would actually read into something, a very sinister motive, when you could read a very innocent motive into it.
And this audiotape shows that he is really concerned about kids. This is him uncensored. He`s drugged out. He could say anything. If he had a dirty thought, he could have said it.
SEGALL: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But his thoughts were pure. It was about helping kids, building a children`s hospital, helping sick kids. So do you think he got a bum rap with the whole child molestation accusation?
SEGALL: Huge. I think it was huge. My first -- obviously, not there -- and I understand human nature and that anyone, no matter how sweet and sincere they seem could do the most heinous thing. But from my experiences with Michael as a kid and maintaining my focus upon Michael, wanting to get reconnected with him, just because I wanted to be a person who could love Michael for Michael and I knew he didn`t have that. You hear it in his music. You see it in the choices he made that he didn`t have to make. He was in a position to do whatever he wanted to do artistically.
And you`re absolutely right. It`s a great observation that even in an induced state, his heart for wanting to help children and wanting to see the world a better place was right there, even in that state.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Tom Mesereau, his attorney who got him acquitted said he was just totally misunderstood. And you, being 11 years his junior, would be one of those people, if he was a pervert, he could have come after you. And you say that that`s absolutely never happened.
SEGALL: Never happened. And there`s those times when you can sense something, where you`re not trying to cast aspersions, but you get the sense that something`s off --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Creepy, yes.
SEGALL: Yes, even as a kid you can sense --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Of course you can.
SEGALL: -- especially around an adult, never. Always the purest of motivations and the sweetness of, you know, just hearing his, "Hey," that was just Michael.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we have a very disturbing and sad photo, but we`re here talking about his death, so we`re going to show it to you and get your reaction. And it`s the photo that was taken of him when he was dead, the first photo. And there it is.
As his friend, as a person who cared for him deeply, the whole world is seeing this, what runs through you?
SEGALL: The same thing that ran through my mind when I first heard he had died, which was broken-heartedness, and a sense of, "That can`t be happening, please." Because it was not only the appreciation for him as the artist that was making his contributions to the world, but it was knowing Michael, the person, and wanting to get back in touch with him.
I`m looking so forward for this to be over. I bet Conrad Murray`s looking forward for this to be over. I would rather hear about Michael`s moonwalk and the stuff he wanted to do for kids and "Heal the World" and "Beat It" and "Billie Jean" rather than his urine content and his liver percentages of his gobbledygook that you referred to earlier, you know.
It needs to be done but, man, I can`t wait for it to be over. Because but I would rather see Michael moonwalking than on a slab.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to thank you so much.
SEGALL: Sure.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What an incredible interview.
SEGALL: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you for shedding such incredible insight into a very complicated person.
SEGALL: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got to leave it right there, but we`re not done, by any means.
Things got heated outside the courtroom today between Conrad Murray supporters and Jackson fans. And we`re going to talk to somebody who was involved in the dustup, next.
And we`re taking your calls, 1-877-JVM-SAYS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi. Here I am on assignment in Los Angeles, covering the Michael Jackson case. And I`ve got so much to research and read. But you know what; I don`t have to use these plastic bags -- no -- because they last a thousand years or so. I`ve got these, these little puppies. I carry them around and anything I need to put in, boom. One, two, three, it`s done. And I can carry a whole bunch in my bag.
Now, how hard is that? You know, you can be environmentally sensitive, even when you`re on the go.
I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell and that`s your green alert.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Fans fighting outside court; a Michael Jackson fan and a supporter of Conrad Murray got into it this morning, right outside the halls of justice here in Los Angeles, and then I caught up with the Conrad Murray supporter to ask what the heck happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You had a dustup and the sheriff`s deputies had to come in. Briefly, tell us what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, just a few of the Michael Jackson fans began shouting ugly remarks regarding Dr. Murray and myself. And I simply told them just wait until the facts fall.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he will be -- he`s an innocent man.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They attacked you. They tackled you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they did. Yes, day did. They wanted to actually hold my sign and I refused to give it to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And now, as we show you the dustup again, let`s get the other side of the story. Joining me right now on the set, two of Michael Jackson`s biggest fans, with Erin Jacobs, Amy Kinds; Erin, you were there. We had the video of you there. There it is. See yourself right there -- there you are. You were arguing with that lady. It looks like you hit that -- it looks like you hit that poster that she had. All right. What`s your side of the story?
ERIN JACOBS, MICHAEL JACKSON FAN: Well, I couldn`t hear what she said, but did she say that I was trying to take her sign?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she -- what`s your side of the story?
JACOBS: I was walking past and she made a comment that we didn`t know the facts about the case, so I went over to discuss the facts of the case with her, like any logical person would. She didn`t want to talk about the facts. She just wanted to shove the sign in my face, so I knocked it out, of her face.
I mean she put it right in my face, so I just knocked it out of the way.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is that an example of how tense it`s getting?
JACOBS: It`s insulting. It`s weird. It`s so weird to see people stand on a sidewalk in the middle of a murder trial supporting a murderer. I`ve never seen it ever. I mean we`ve all seen big trials before, and I don`t think you`ve ever seen people out there with professionally made signs, every day, supporting a murder. I think it`s odd and it`s insulting to Michael Jackson.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he`s accused at this point, he hasn`t been convicted. Should we wait until the jury renders its verdict?
JACOBS: I suppose. I already have my opinion.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Karen, Maryland, your question or thought? What do you have to say about this, Karen?
KAREN, MARYLAND (via telephone): Yes, my question is, going through the toxicology report today; you know, they`re saying that he`s this big drug addict, drug addict, but the only drugs that were in his system were what were given to him by the doctor, Propofol, which I do not agree with. But if he was such this big drug addict, where are all the drugs? I just don`t see that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think we actually have a whole bunch of vials that were on his nightstand, and you can see that there are tons of them, and we`ll show you that when we get it up. But not all of them are prescribed by Dr. Conrad Murray; there`s a couple of other doctors. Take a look at that. That`s a lot of medication.
What are your thoughts on that, Erin Jacobs?
JACOBS: That`s a lot of medication. And it`s really sad to see that so many doctors were prescribing these sorts of medications in these quantities to somebody. I mean, it looks to me like there`s enough drugs there to kill a lot of people. And it`s very sad to me that Michael`s life ended like this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: At one time, he had 19 aliases -- 19 aliases to get prescriptions. And at one time, he also owed $100,000 to one pharmacy in Beverly Hills. And I am not saying this -- in any way, shape, or form -- to blame the victim.
He is not on trial here. And he is the victim in this case, but it was a question asked by the caller, and it`s something that`s come up today. This evidence, of all these bottles came up today. What are your thoughts?
JACOBS: Well, my thoughts are, where is he getting this medication from? And then you have to point the finger back at the doctors, because I don`t think that Michael Jackson wrote these prescriptions for himself.
And I hear all these people come on the shows, and they say things like, well, he was an addict, or this would have been another doctor. I wish it was another doctor. He might have had monitoring equipment. He might have had resuscitation equipment that would have saved Michael`s life.
And if we don`t start holding these doctors responsible for their actions, what are we saying? What message are we sending that addicts can be murdered because they`re addicts? It`s insane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want you to listen to the audio, we`re going to play just a little snippet of it again and I want to get your reaction of this very disturbing audio of Michael Jackson recorded by Dr. Conrad Murray, which, of course, everybody`s wondering, why did he record Michael Jackson in this state?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: Children are depressed. The -- in those hospitals, no game room, no movie theater.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is sad. We only have a couple of seconds. What was your reaction when you heard it?
JACOBS: I wasn`t sad. I was thankful that the entire world saw Michael Jackson when he didn`t know this was going to get out in an uninhibited state expressing who he was, a man who loved children.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We will be right back. Stay right where you are.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you train or break an elephant? That word, "break".
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Elephants are extremely social and they need the environment, they need movement, they need exercise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abused, 24 hours until the baby totally lost their mind. Many baby died.
Then the baby elephant fear the man. The man can control and the boy make baby elephant obey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re talking about another kind of crime right now. We`ve got a famous CSI investigator on this case looking into disturbing horrific animal abuse. You recognize her -- from CSI? That`s right. The CSI investigator, known to the rest of the world as Jorja Fox and she is fighting for elephants.
When people use elephants as entertainment, most don`t think, oh, they see these beautiful animals going here, there or everywhere. They don`t realize how these animals were captured; how they were taken from the wild. Elephants tortured and abused to perform for humans. Elephants tortured and abused to perform for humans.
But one 14-year-old girl figured it out. She made the connection. And now she is making a movie, "How I Became an Elephant" and it`s changing hearts and saving lives, one person and one elephant at a time.
Joining me now to talk about her passion for this heroic effort, actress Jorja Fox, star of CSI; you know her from this show. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You showed your hand today to a master manipulator, your words.
JORJA FOX, ACTRESS, ANIMAL ACTIVIST: She has a right to know. She did this, five years ago, three weeks ago, and she`s going to do it again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you want to say for the elephants and the movie you`re making to save the elephants?
FOX: Well, what I would like to say is I would like to see sort after of a transformation or an evolution in the way that a lot of people view elephants in the way elephants are treated, particularly in captivity, in the entertainment industry, in circuses and zoos. The movie that we made is called, "How I became an Elephant".
And truly about a 14-year-old girl who travels to Thailand to learn about elephants. She meets probably the person of elephant information across the globe. The name is Lek Chailert and she has an elephant sanctuary there in Thailand. A lot of people don`t realize that there`s really only been one way to train elephants from hundreds of thousands of years. It goes back. It is an Asian technique. To this day in 2011, we are using the same technique.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is it cruel?
FOX: It is beyond cruel. It`s beyond. It is completely barbaric and horrific. If you see an elephant in captivity, including a zoo, even if they`re not doing a trick, they have probably been trained with these techniques.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Juliette saves an elephant in this documentary. Her bravery is important because these horrific animals, well, they are innocent. Nobody can speak for them except human beings who care.
Check this out. It is called "The Crash Box".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were tied, maybe everything; tied the ear, the tail, the leg, and at the time maybe lost freedom. Moaning, screaming all night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where to help -- all right, if you want to help, what do you do, Jorja?
FOX: You go to howibecameanelephant.com. You stop going to circuses and zoos. Sanctuaries are great. We have elephants in captivity that we`re going to need to house. Go to a sanctuary and see them there. Don`t support those kinds of industries. If you are in Thailand be very, very careful; there`s over 300 trekking organizations in Thailand. Go to the right one.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to leave it there. Love you Jorja.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you, of course, know Jorja Fox from "CSI". And there you are, Jorja Fox working on CSI as an investigator. You`ve actually used some of the skills that you learned on the show to help you investigate the plight for elephants.
FOX: Yes. Indeed. Research is really the key. In that clip I`m getting hammered by my new boss actually for being a renegade, which is not the first of probably the last time that will happen to me personally and on the show.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re an animal lover.
FOX: I am.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Things are changing in the world, aren`t they, for animals?
FOX: Well, yes. And I`m an environmentalist and a conservationist. And we`re really at a critical, critical point. I mean if you look at the (INAUDIBLE) list of endangered animals, if we keep going the way we`re going in another 50 years we really critically won`t have a lot of the animals that we, as humans, need to survive on the planet. It`s not fun and games anymore.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t have any kids, you don`t have any kids, but people who have kids want to have animals for them.
FOX: Yes. I would like us to be able to stay on this planet. I don`t want to move it Mars. I would like to stay here and I`d like --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: "NANCY GRACE" next.
END
