Return to Transcripts main page

Cuomo Prime Time

House Democrats Unveil $3 Trillion COVID-19 Relief Package; Trump Criticizes Fauci On School Reopenings: "He Wants To Play All Sides Of The Equation"; New Concerns Over Rapid COVID-19 Tests Used By White House. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired May 13, 2020 - 21:00   ET



ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: -They began their shows in Europe before moving their act to Las Vegas where they entertained audiences for more than 40 years.

Their show ended in 2003 after Horn was attacked on stage by a white tiger on his 59th birthday. He recovered from the attack but only performed onstage one more time before retiring.

His longtime partner, Siegfried Fischbacher said that while the world lost one of the greats of magic, he lost his best friend. Roy Horn was 75 years old.

Our thoughts go out to all the families, those who have been affected by the Coronavirus.

News continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: Important reminder, Coop, thank you for that.

Hyacinth, from the bulbous plant family--

COOPER: Thank you.

C. CUOMO: --of Asparagaceae. Very fragrant, very nice.

COOPER: Now - now you're just showing off.

C. CUOMO: Yes, well--

COOPER: Now you're just showing off.

C. CUOMO: --I do have it right in front of me.

COOPER: This is my - this is my - oh, see, yes. It's my childhood like speech issue coming up. It rears its head every now and then so.

C. CUOMO: Yes, I know. You are one of the--

COOPER: Hyacinth. Hyacinth. There, I did it. Hyacinth. C. CUOMO: You - you nailed it.

COOPER: The Hyacinth Foundation.

C. CUOMO: And I heard you nail it in the break. So, you know, this TV thing.

COOPER: I practiced.

C. CUOMO: You'll get used to it, the TV thing, you know. You're just one of the--

COOPER: Someday.

C. CUOMO: You're just one of the legends of - of broadcasting.

COOPER: Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed.

C. CUOMO: You are the man, and thank you for helping us remember the toll that this virus has taken on us, nobody does it better than you, pronunciation aside. Coop, have a great night.

COOPER: Thanks, Chris, and bye.

C. CUOMO: All right, I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.

Look, it's unacceptable for the President to be doing what he's doing right now, which is playing feelings over facts. Trump says the young are in great shape.

We have over a 100 cases of kids with mystery illnesses that are potentially related to COVID in New York State alone. We don't know why this is happening. We don't know about the correlation of them testing positive to COVID or not.

They thought it was Kawasaki. Now they think it's something that's like Kawasaki. They don't even know how to treat the cases, OK?

The reason the President is gaming you this way is because in politics feelings beat facts very often. And that's why almost every State in this country is reopening somewhat, despite the fact that none of those State meet the CDC guidelines to do so.

That means governors like Andrew Cuomo of New York, my brother, are going to lose the battle of facts over feelings, and they're going to reopen ready or not. Now, what does he think of that proposition? He's here to defend his actions and the reality in his State tonight.

We also have more new information on the Georgia shooting, OK? Last night, remember, we talked to the man who owns this house, where Ahmaud Arbery was seen on the 23rd.

But this is not the surveillance video that now matters the most. There is another surveillance video. We have it. There is a 911 call that went with that surveillance video that happened almost two weeks earlier. We've been saying from the beginning, the reporting strongly suggests

that this case is going to come down to what the McMichaels thought they knew about Ahmaud Arbery. That is now clearly what this case is about, and we will show you why.

All right, we're going to give you new information. We're going to talk about the state of play. More real information the better, let's get after it.




C. CUOMO: All right, joining us now is the Governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo.

Big brother, good to see you.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): How are you, little brother?

C. CUOMO: Oh, listen to you! Looking a little beat up, Guv, I told you this was going to happen. I told you, you were going to get tired, fighting back the tide of feelings.

People want to reopen. They're economically desperate. It's taken too long. They don't want to watch the numbers come down. You're going to have to reopen. Told you last week!

A. CUOMO: Yes, no, I'm not tired, Chris. It's just some of us work more than one hour a day.

And feelings don't beat facts. They don't beat facts. I understand how in politics people respond to feelings. But fact - feelings don't beat facts. Look at what I've been doing from day one with the briefings that I'm doing, only facts.

People are starved for facts and information. They don't want spin. They don't want the hype. They don't want all this political filter and rhetoric. They want facts, so they can make their own decisions.

And that's what I've been doing here in New York, and people all across the nation are - are watching. So, they do want facts, and facts win in the end. I understand you can pander to feelings. But the facts win.

C. CUOMO: Well if the facts are winning, then why are 48 states opening right now, to different degrees, including your own, even though no one meets the CDC guidelines to do so?

A. CUOMO: Well I can't answer for other states. There are states that are opening that don't meet CDC guidelines.

C. CUOMO: All of them.

A. CUOMO: That's true.


C. CUOMO: All.

A. CUOMO: OK. How that's happening, that's a political question. It's been left up to the governors. There's a very strong political sentiment to open up.

And people are frustrated, there's no doubt about that. And you have to open because you can't survive this economically for a prolonged period of time. But that doesn't mean you deviate from the facts.

What we're doing in New York is we have the most fact-driven, data- driven reopening plan in the country. Period! Seven criteria, all based on the facts, no region opens unless they meet the factual thresholds.

And that's what's going to govern us. It's what's governed us from day one. And we will, throughout this pandemic.

C. CUOMO: How do they meet the factual threshold when you are strapped for cash and unable to test in still any real comprehensive way anywhere in your State?

A. CUOMO: Yes. Well what you said is just not a fact. If it were a fact, you'd be right. But it's not a fact.

C. CUOMO: Where is it wrong?

A. CUOMO: We have different regions in this - I'm going to explain, if you let me finish.

We have 10 regions in this State, right? And it's very different across the State. We have the worst cases in New York City, the worst in the United States, worst in some countries. We have regions Upstate--

C. CUOMO: Right.

A. CUOMO: --that are more like rural America, where the numbers are dramatically different.

So, we do it region by region, and every region must hit numerical thresholds. The CDC put out preliminary guidance. They're supposed to be doing follow-up detailed guidance. We're still waiting for that.

But the preliminary guidance of the CDC, and that's what Dr. Fauci goes back to, decline of cases for 14 days, surge capacity, and hospital surge capacity, and ICU units, enough PPE equipment, tracing and testing. That operation has to be in place.

C. CUOMO: Can you test enough in any of your regions--

A. CUOMO: The White House--

C. CUOMO: --to know for a fact whether or not cases are rising or falling?

A. CUOMO: Yes. We will not open a region without the adequate testing in place. The Corona - White House Coronavirus Task Force--

C. CUOMO: Do you have it in place already?

A. CUOMO: We - well the - no region can open before this Friday, May 15th. And any region that wants to open on May 15th is going to have to hit all seven of those criteria, including the testing capacity and tracing capacity.

C. CUOMO: Do you think any will hit the all-criteria?

A. CUOMO: Yes, yes.

C. CUOMO: They'll be able to test to a level of sufficiency that the people in that region will know whether or not doing certain things is safe? You'll be able to test enough people frequently enough?

A. CUOMO: Yes. The White House Coronavirus Task Force put out guidelines on what they thought adequate testing was. It's about 30 per 1,000 residents.

C. CUOMO: Right.

A. CUOMO: That number of tests will be performed by that region for that region to open. There's then a threshold of how many tracers have to be in place.

Here we have former Mayor Mike Bloomberg, who's - who's been fantastic, working with Johns Hopkins, putting together the most sophisticated tracing operation in the country so.

And that will be for each region in place. Otherwise, they can't open. Yes, Sir.

C. CUOMO: OK. Good, thank you for that. Thank you for the recognizing of what's happening in different regions.

A. CUOMO: My pleasure.

C. CUOMO: Because that's people what are going to watch.

A. CUOMO: My pleasure.

C. CUOMO: I want to ask you one more political question.

A. CUOMO: My pleasure.

C. CUOMO: Oh, take it easy.

And, by the way, what you do in you pressers aren't all facts. You just said today in one of your pressers that some people are never happy, some people like that in your own family. Who in your own family is never happy?

A. CUOMO: I don't remember--

C. CUOMO: Thank you, next question.

A. CUOMO: --at this time--

C. CUOMO: Next question.

A. CUOMO: --that statement.

C. CUOMO: Yes, I bet you don't. I will refresh your recollection in the break.

But let me ask you this. Nancy Pelosi, the Democrats, they're putting forward a new bill. And in that bill, there is a ton of money for State government not just for testing and tracing, but money to fill shortfalls.

Are you satisfied with the massive amount of money in that bill?

A. CUOMO: Look, I think the House put forth a very smart bill, and it's in the right direction.

Look at what we've done thus far. Bail out - let's start the economy, stimulate the economy, compensate for Coronavirus, yes, so we gave a lot of money to large corporations, businesses, and rich people.

Who didn't we - who did we not fund? Police, firefighters, schoolteachers, healthcare workers, all the heroes of this situation, right? You turn on the television. You see all these commercials, "Hail the heroes."

Yes. Washington has to understand it. That's who gets funded through State governments and local government. You know how much state governments--

C. CUOMO: $3 trillion for the states.

A. CUOMO: --and local governments have had? Zero.

C. CUOMO: But now, $3 trillion.

A. CUOMO: That's what they've gotten so far.

C. CUOMO: $3 trillion now though, they're - they're proposing. Is that enough?

A. CUOMO: $500 billion. But you round up a little bit.


C. CUOMO: It says $3 trillion for the states.

A. CUOMO: But yes, sure - it's the total - it's the total - total package. It's $500 billion to the States. But you're - you're close enough.

C. CUOMO: Well hold on a second.

A. CUOMO: It's like horseshoes.

C. CUOMO: Hold - hold on a second

A. CUOMO: But the point is funding the state governments and local government.

C. CUOMO: Yes.

A. CUOMO: I have a $61 billion hole, OK?

C. CUOMO: Right.

A. CUOMO: If I don't get that - if I don't get funding from Washington, I have to reduce my budget, and who I fund.

C. CUOMO: Right.

A. CUOMO: Who do I fund? I fund schools, police, fire, local governments, etcetera.

C. CUOMO: Right.

A. CUOMO: Why would you starve those areas?

C. CUOMO: This is--

A. CUOMO: Plus, this whole plan is on the governors to reopen, right? The governors will decide. The governors will reopen State-by-State. How do you not provide funding for the governors to do the reopening that the nation's relying on?

C. CUOMO: Right, but here's the argument against it.

One, it's $3 trillion. You have to figure out how to distribute it. You want $61 billion. The pushback is the job of the Federal Government is not to make up your budget shortfall for you that if you have to make hard cuts, make them.

Everybody's going to have to make hard cuts. This is a hard time. Why should they give you everything that you need, so that you don't suffer any impact, when they're not going to be able to do that for everybody?

A. CUOMO: Yes. First of all, because me is not me, right?

They just did funding for corporate - why didn't they say that - that to the millionaires? Why didn't they say that to the big corporations? Why didn't they say that to the other business corporations that they funded all around the country?

"So, we'll bail them out, but police, fire, hospitals and schools, we're going to close them down." Come on! Makes no sense.

C. CUOMO: Let's take a break, two very big issues on the other side of the break.

What do you do about schools? We see California moving on universities. What does the Governor say is going to happen in his State? And what about K through 12? When do you make that decision?

And what's going on with kids? The President says kids are doing great, they don't have any risk. What's all these cases in New York? What do they know about them? I know the Governor is concerned. We'll find out why, right after this.









C. CUOMO: All right, we're back with the Governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, my brother, of course.

We were having a discussion about budget priorities and what the Federal Government should do for you right now. We're - that's an ongoing discussion because this is going to take time. You're going to have problems for a while, and you're going to have to make hard choices.

Let me shift to something that is urgent right now. The President says this situation is different because it doesn't really affect kids.

Now, we did believe that, of course, in our own family, right? Mario got it. So, it's not that kids are immune, even though we hope they were. But you now have over a 100 cases of something that we don't even really know what it is.

New York - Pediatric Multi-Symptom Inflammatory Syndrome, like Kawasaki disease, but not Kawasaki disease, may be related to COVID-19 because 40 percent tested positive for antibodies, 60 percent of the sick tested positive for the virus.

This is another layer of the mystery. How concerned are the health officials in your State?

A. CUOMO: Very much, very much. And look, this is important.

First, the point is this virus has been ahead of us all along. We - it's beaten us at every turn, Chris. When it first started, it was coming from China. But it turns out, it

didn't come from China. It came from Europe, and nobody even knew. And we sat here, letting Europeans come January, February, March, 2 million Europeans came, and they brought the virus with them because it had moved from China to Europe, and we had no idea.

Then if you had the - if you had the virus, and you had the antibodies because you recovered, you would be immune, right? You were supposed to be immune. Now, they're not so sure that you're immune.

And then kids, the good news was kids couldn't get it, and it wouldn't bother kids. Well now we're not so sure.

What we're finding in New York, but you watch, it's going to be true all across this country and all across this world, it doesn't present as a COVID case. It doesn't present as a respiratory illness, which is what COVID normally is. It's an inflammation of the blood vessels, and then an inflammation of the heart.

And what we're - we're looking at 100 and - 103 cases actually in the State of New York right now. And you're right. They either have the antibodies or they're positive for COVID. And it's an inflammation of the blood vessels, and of the heart, and it's very serious. Many of them go into the ICU.

Our State Department of Health found it first, frankly, and is talking to the other states. And now, 13 other states are saying "Well we have cases like this." Five countries on the globe are saying we have cases like this.

And it's really tricky because these are kids who may have been exposed to the virus weeks ago, and have this almost delayed reaction to it. But it is frightening because the - the one good news, right, was that children wouldn't be affected by COVID.

And now we see these cases from less than 1-year-old to 21-years-old. We lost a 5-year-old boy, 7-year-old boy, an 18-year-old girl died from this. So, it's a very serious situation.

And that's why anyone who says we understand this virus, we just don't. We haven't from day one. We didn't know how it traveled. We don't know who it infects. We don't know what the ramifications to the infection are.

And now, we're - we're really troubled, if you have children, who might be really affected by this virus.


C. CUOMO: What does this mean for schools in the fall? We saw what California did with the State universities. You have to figure out what to do with your State universities, the private universities, well then play off that.

But K through 12, what you say happens in the State applies to private and public schools, parochial schools as well. How close are you to making a decision?

A. CUOMO: Well we've said, in this State, they will be closed through the academic year. We haven't made a decision on summer schools yet for K through 12. On the - on the decisions about college in September, we're just not there yet.

As I said, I don't - I don't believe that anyone really understands what's going on with this virus. I don't know where we really are with therapeutics or treatments. And I want to make decisions, Chris, when I have the facts, when I have the information.

And I understand schools have to plan for the fall semester, and I'll be respectful of their planning period. And we've told them, "Come up with a plan" because how do you open a school in September? You can't have gatherings. You can't have large number of children in a classroom.

C. CUOMO: But you can't get everybody back to work.

A. CUOMO: Just picture a school building--

C. CUOMO: If they're not in school K to 12 because people won't be able to get back to the workforce. They'll have nobody to take care of their kids. And if we don't get back to work at some point, you know, people are desperate. They are literally starving, as you know, in your State.

A. CUOMO: Yes, they're desperate. Let's find out what is happening with this COVID virus and - and kids, and then let's see what the answer is.

And let's see if somebody tells you "Well Mario and ChaCha may wind up getting the virus, and may have this inflammatory heart disease," and then see how anxious parents are to send their children back to school.

So, all I'm saying is this changes, and I can't make a decision about September now because that's a lifetime away.

C. CUOMO: Fair point about the timing.

A. CUOMO: We have time. I told the schools - right.

C. CUOMO: Fair point about the timing. But last--

A. CUOMO: Thank you for that. Thank you.

C. CUOMO: --last point about this, you know.

A. CUOMO: Thank you. I'm glad you agree with me. Thank you very much.

C. CUOMO: Let's end on this that the facts versus feeling thing is real. Yes, I'm glad you think it's funny.

I want to show you a clip of the President today talking about Tony Fauci because it is a demonstration of how feelings are overwhelming fact in this situation, literally by intentional assault. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Fauci yesterday was a little cautious on reopening the economy too soon. Do you share his concerns?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He wants to play all sides of the equation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you say Dr. Fauci is playing both sides, are you suggesting that the advice--

TRUMP: Well, I was surprised--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --he's giving to you is different?

TRUMP: --I was surprised by his answer actually, because, you know, it's just, to me, it's not an acceptable answer, especially when it comes to schools.


C. CUOMO: Now, to be fair to Fauci, by the way, he was never saying "You can't open schools. You can't open this. You can't open that." I think the media was actually being a little unfair to him in context.

But the President is playing to people's feelings. "We got to reopen. You got to be back in school or you're not really open. It's been too long."

And that's why states are reopening, Guv, because it's not about the facts that are reopening them, and you're going to have to follow that same path, if the people demand it, yes or no?

A. CUOMO: No. No. Look, the - you are in a position of leadership because you're supposed to lead.

If you're saying that I am a mere barometer, I am a windmill for emotion, and I will point in whatever direction the emotion points, then you haven't noticed anything that I've done in public service, as Governor or as Attorney General.

And I don't agree that feelings win. Dr. Fauci, who is all fact-based, science-based, he has more credibility on this issue, according to polls than anyone in the nation.

I have credibility on this issue, according to polls nationwide. And I'm all about facts. And when I do offer a political - an opinion, I say it's an opinion, you know, and I pivot, and I say, "Here's my opinion. I have problems with family members."

But that was a personal opinion. I present facts.

C. CUOMO: No, that's a fact.

A. CUOMO: Dr. Fauci presents facts. C. CUOMO: You do have problems with people in your family. That is a fact. They certainly have problems with you. I can tell you that.

A. CUOMO: Only you.

C. CUOMO: No, no.

A. CUOMO: Only you.

C. CUOMO: I'm--

A. CUOMO: Only you, my brother.

C. CUOMO: I like you the best. That is the harshest commentary that someone can say about your standing in the family. I'm as good as you got, all right?

A. CUOMO: Yes, I know, that's a problem.

C. CUOMO: Governor Andrew Cuomo, you are dealing with very important things. I know that you don't take yourself seriously, but you take the job very seriously. That's what this situation demands. I love you. Thank you for coming on the show.

A. CUOMO: Love you

C. CUOMO: All right.

A. CUOMO: Love you, brother.

C. CUOMO: I love you, big brother.


All right, the COVID tests, listen, I don't like raining on our optimism, OK, believe me. I'm as anxious as of any of you to see more sunshine here. And the rapid COVID tests, I was a big fan of the possibility, and looking at the early science on them.

The President loves them. That's what they're using on all the people who are proximate to him. But now we have evidence that they may not have as good, first of all, let's just be honest, they have a high failure rate, it looks like, in this last set of studies.

So, should we be counting on them let alone having our President be dependent on them? Sanjay's going to take us through it, next.








C. CUOMO: There's a new preliminary study that claims that the Abbott ID NOW Coronavirus test used by the White House, might be highly inaccurate. NYU researchers say it could have a false negative rate as high as 48 percent.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta's back with us tonight.

What do you make of the basis for the analysis? And what do you make of the finding?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well this is a study that came out of NYU. They looked at, you know, I think 30 samples - 35 samples, somewhere in there, and the failure rate was - was obviously very concerning.

You know, Abbott has commented on this saying they're looking into it. Maybe the tests weren't being performed correctly. But this is concerning, Chris. We've been doing some reporting on Abbott for some time.

As you mentioned, before the commercial break, this is obviously a significant sort of test because it could give results really quickly.

If you're waiting days for your test results, and you end up having the virus, you don't know if you could be out there spreading it. That's been the concern. So, people need results quickly. This can give one in 15 minutes.

But even before this study, which still needs to be peer-reviewed, again, and Abbott needs to look into this more, there were studies suggesting that it could have a failure rate, false negative rate, I should say, of 15 percent to 25 percent.

And again, I think people know what that means. But Chris, if a 100 people have the infection, they all get the test, if you have a false negative rate of 15 percent that means 15 of those people will be told "You don't have the virus." They actually do.

If you're in a hospital, and you get put into a COVID-negative part of the hospital, place where there's not COVID spreading, now you spread it. That creates a cluster in a hospital.

Same sort of thing could happen in a nursing home or, you know, obviously we're talking about States opening up, people out there, out and about, potentially spreading.

This is a big concern, especially given that people can spread this without symptoms. They have no other barometer by which to measure other than the result of this test. If it's wrong, that's a problem. C. CUOMO: What do you make of the reciprocal argument, which goes that "Yes, but Sanjay, even if it's 15 percent, at least you have 85 percent accuracy, and that's better than nothing, which is where we're starting from."

GUPTA: It's - it's better than nothing. But there are better tests out there, you know. I mean the thing about the Abbott test again was--

C. CUOMO: As fast?

GUPTA: No, not as fast. That's - that's the issue. So, you know, you have tests that can get you to 98 percent, so it becomes a question of what are you - what are you willing to sacrifice?

Are you willing to have 15, 25, even 48, you know, nearly half the people thinking that they are negative, when in fact they're carrying the virus, or would you have a - rather have a faster result?

Ideally, you'd like both, you know. But it seems like even after all these months, we're still not in that position in this country. We don't have a test that is widely available, that is fast, and that is reliably accurate, in terms of not getting false negative results. We need to have that.

I do want to state again. Abbott's looking into this.

C. CUOMO: Right.

GUPTA: And perhaps the tests were not performed well at NYU.

I mean they have these various things that they want to look into because I, like you, would love for this test to work because of the speed of the test. But a false negative rate like that is not going to be acceptable in hospitals, in nursing homes, in the general community.

C. CUOMO: Well we'll see what they come up with.

Let me ask you about these 100-plus cases in New York, and supposedly other states saying that they're having kids with this Multiple Inflammatory Symptom Syndrome. Looks like Kawasaki disease, which I never heard of until this situation. But basically it's swelling around the heart of these kids.

Is this something that is still discrete at this point or is it something that we really have to look at about COVID and its reach that is still unknown?

GUPTA: You know, it does appear to be fairly rare, Chris. So thankfully, you know, 100 potentially patients, months into this pandemic now, is when these - we're starting to see these kids.

Were we missing them earlier? Or is this, as your brother was talking about, truly a post-inflammatory sort of situation, so after someone has had the infection, now a post-inflammatory state? I talked to sources right when I heard about this, and I heard about this a couple weeks ago, out of the U.K., because there was an alert sent out, Chris, to all the hospitals in the U.K.

It came on a weekend, two weeks ago, saying "Hospitals, be on the lookout for this. We're - we're hearing about this. Be on the lookout."

Got my antenna up, I called my sources in Asia, and I said "What about you? You guys had earliest cases, even with kids." They really weren't seeing it over there, OK? So, really wasn't something that they saw in increased number of children with this inflammatory-like syndrome in Asia, which again, had the earlier cases.

Why is it something that's affecting predominantly Europe and the United States? We don't know.

There could be a genetic predisposition here. It could be that the virus is a little bit different. We know that there's been a slight mutations to the virus, nothing that that significant, but perhaps significant enough to cause these sorts of problems.

But thankfully, Chris, as we've sort of been talking to hospital systems, across the country, it does still seem rare. It can be catastrophic when it happens.


I interviewed a 12-year-old girl and her father today. She went into heart failure, had two cardiac arrests, was luckily resuscitated, and is doing fine. But it can be a very significant illness.

And I think this is a message for obviously doctors and nurses, but also parents, who say "OK, my kid is recovered. Let me still be diligent about them."

Just like we've been saying with adults, Chris, like yourself, you know, recovery is - is still something we didn't even think about.

We didn't the luxury of thinking about two months, three months, into this. Now we got to start getting serious about what does recovery really mean after someone has gone through this infection with adults and - and now with kids.

C. CUOMO: Yes, but if it starts affecting kids, it's an entire game- changer in terms of the nonchalance and the feeling index that my brother completely rejects about our political calculus right now, about how we reopen. If we're worried about our kids, every calculation will change.

Sanjay, thank you very much for taking us through this.

GUPTA: You got it, buddy.

C. CUOMO: I appreciate it.

All right, we got new details--

GUPTA: No problem.

C. CUOMO: --in the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery. Now, since our interview, just last night, with the owner of the home that he was seen entering, things have changed even about that man's story.

There were things he didn't tell us that we're now finding out from different reporting sources, and we went back to his lawyer, who's with us, as well, to her credit. She's back to explain what we didn't know 24 hours ago and, more importantly, its relevance, next.









C. CUOMO: All right, this is going to take a little bit of focus and attention, but it matters, if you care about the shooting case in Georgia.

Our investigation of this case has always pointed to February 23rd, the day that Arbery was killed, not being a one-off.

The theory is that the accused in this case, the McMichaels, seem to have some sense that they knew the deceased that they knew about him, that they were looking for him, OK?

Now, new information has come to light that makes this much more likely, and here it is, surveillance video that was recorded nearly two weeks before the shooting. This is February 11th. You see what it shows, a man at the same unfinished property, at night.

Remember, on the 23rd, it's during the day, easier to see. Here at night, different. Tough to make out if there are any similarities between the men, that's for the police and for you to judge for yourself.

This is the same property owned by Larry English, who was on the show last night. English didn't tell us, even though we asked him, and we'll take that up with his lawyer, but we now know that when he learned of this video, he texted the video to his neighbor, Diego Perez, on the 11th.

Perez then offers to check things out, since English lives some 90 miles away, being a good neighbor. At the same time, Travis McMichael drives up, and sees this trespasser, near the house, calls 911. We now have a portion of that newly-released call.


TRAVIS MCMICHAEL: --neighborhood and I just caught a guy running into a house being built, two houses down from me. When I turned around, he took off running into the house.

911 DISPATCHER: OK. What did he look like?

MCMICHAEL: Uh, it was a Black male. Red shirt, white shorts.

911 DISPATCHER: Are you OK?

MCMICHAEL: Yes. Yes. It just startled me. When I turned around, when I turned around, and saw him, and backed up, he reached into his pocket, and ran into the house. So, I don't know if he's armed or not. But he looked like he was acting like he was. So, you know, be mindful of that.

We've been having a lot of burglaries and break-ins around here lately, and - and I had a pistol stolen January 1st actually. And, you know, he's, I've never seen this guy before in the neighborhood.


C. CUOMO: Now, put that all together, OK?

McMichael says we've had a lot of break-ins, burglaries. Now, there are no reports of those, OK? But the McMichaels did report that they say their gun was stolen from a vehicle. That's in his mind. He says it in the 911 call. "We had a gun stolen."

Who does he think stole that gun? He says "He put his hand in his waistband, maybe he had a gun." This is the 11th.

He's out of breath. We have no indication that he pursued this person. I don't know why he's out of breath. He's supposed to be in his truck. So, put that to side. We don't think that there was any kind of pursuit here or anything.

But the 11th is when that happened, not the 23rd. Did the McMichaels believe on the 23rd that the man they saw jogging down the street was the man they saw the night of the 11th?

Now, I say "They." Perez - Diego Perez, the neighbor, remember, the man that Mr. English called, and told, or texted, the information about what happened on the 11th in his house, he did an interview with The Atlanta Journal Constitution.

He gave a similar rundown of events, saying the man reached for his waistband, could have been going for a phone, they don't know what he was going for, but Travis McMichael got spooked, went down the road.

The AJC says Perez told them that when Travis McMichael returned, he was with his father, Gregory McMichael, and they were - and he was armed, OK?

Now, is this tape, the 11th, the one that the McMichaels referred to the day they killed Arbery? Remember what we thought was weird for them to say on the 23rd because how did they know where Arbery had been that he had been in that house under construction?

A police officer wrote that day, "Gregory McMichael stated that there have been several Break-ins in the neighborhood," and again, we don't see police records of break-ins, but this is what is in his mind, "and further" that "the suspect was caught on surveillance video."


They couldn't have known about the surveillance video from the 23rd. It had just happened, as far as we know. And Mr. English says he doesn't really know them, and he never told them about it. All right, taking him at his word, are they talking about the 11th?

Now, after the shooting, Gregory McMichael told police they had seen the man that Travis shot the other night. The 11th? And suspected he was armed. Like they said on the 11th? So, they grabbed their guns before chasing down Arbery.

Now, to be clear, I don't know. You don't know. We don't know who's on that February 11th video, if that's Arbery. But maybe apparently they thought he was.

Now, also remember this. Even if everything I just said is true, and that's what their state of mind was, does it change the analysis of the case?

I say no, not legally. These aren't cops. These are private citizens. And their rights under the Citizen Arrest Law, which we'll talk about in the next segment, very narrow what they're allowed to do.

Let's get some more context from Larry English's attorney, Beth Graddy.

First of all, Beth, thank you for coming back. I appreciate it.


C. CUOMO: Now, help me understand the events of February 11th, and why they didn't come up last night.

GRADDY: Well, just to be clear, Larry English's story has never changed.

He has always said that prior to February 23rd, there were four or five occasions when someone, or more than one person, came onto his property, and at one point, it was a couple. That had been happening since October 19th. And so he's always said there were other occasions.

C. CUOMO: Right. But when I asked like, you know, "Have things happened? Did you ever have any concerns before? Did you let anybody know?" he said, "No, you know, I didn't make any report about the 23rd, and no, I don't know about what happened."

Why didn't he just say to me "Yes, on the 11th, another guy broke in, and I sent it to my neighbor, Mr. Perez, and they actually had a situation where they confronted a guy that they said was a young Black man that night?"

Seems pretty relevant!

GRADDY: Well what he has said is that he had nothing stolen, and he didn't make a police report. He contacted the authorities after each time, as - as best I can tell, beginning with October 19th.

He placed a non-emergency call on October 19th or thereabouts. And, at that point, the officer gave my client his telephone number, his cell number.

And every time one of these videos happened, my client sent the video to the officer, so he always kept them informed. What he did not do was press charges because he could not identify a crime.

C. CUOMO: Understood.

GRADDY: Nothing had been stolen or taken. So, he - he said he wasn't aware of any burglaries. And what he has repeatedly said is he has never used the word burglary because that involves a felony--

C. CUOMO: Sure.

GRADDY: --he contemplated, and he can't say that that happened. And, as he has said repeatedly, nothing was taken, nothing was damaged.

C. CUOMO: Right.

GRADDY: All he had was possibly a misdemeanor trespass.

C. CUOMO: Right.

GRADDY: And that's what he's - what he's taken up every time with the authorities.

C. CUOMO: I agree with everything you just said. I am accusing Mr. English of nothing. He has no duty to tell anybody about anything that happens on his property, frankly. He doesn't have to tell the police or anybody else. It's his business.

What I'm saying is that it seems that if you're trying to help understand a situation, the fact that on February 11th, there was another guy in your house, and Travis McCready - McMichael, showed up and was, you know, made contact with that guy, and your neighbor also made contact with that guy, and obviously the McMichaels were referring to this surveillance video, on the 23rd, when they saw Ahmaud Arbery.

Mr. English is aware of this. Why didn't he decide to offer it up last night?

GRADDY: Well he's aware of--

C. CUOMO: Is he nervous?

GRADDY: He's aware of there having been multiple people who've come on his property and that there were videos. He's not aware of what the McMichaels might have known or thought. He didn't have any contact with them about this.

Like I said, he's only met Travis McMichael once back in last summer, and never had another conversation with him. And so, he doesn't know what Travis McMichael was thinking.

All we knew is that the February 23rd video was being released, and we had to make sure that video was understood.

C. CUOMO: Right.

GRADDY: And so, we talked about that video because that is what everybody else was focused on. But we did repeatedly say that there were prior videos, and he said that. He has just been very clear that none of those videos depict a crime. Now, in terms of the--

C. CUOMO: No, I'm with you on that, Beth. I'm just saying something different.


C. CUOMO: I'm not saying they depict a crime. And again, I am - I will continue to thank you for taking this opportunity. But you know what I'm saying here.


I'm saying that the information of what happened on the 11th, forget about Mr. English, just you, using common sense, let alone your legal education, when the McMichaels clearly think that what they - the person they saw on the 11th is the person they saw on the 23rd, don't you think that that's interesting information, if you're trying to be helpful--

GRADDY: Well if--

C. CUOMO: --to what people understand? I mean you didn't mention it either--


C. CUOMO: --for that matter.

GRADDY: Sure. If my client had known that that's what the McMichaels thought, he would have said that. But he didn't know that.

He didn't know what the McMichaels thought. He didn't know if the McMichaels had seen this video. He had given all of this information to the police. But he's never been in a position to know what the McMichaels think about any of the videos. There are other videos. C. CUOMO: But he had a - he had a text where he referred to Travis, right?

GRADDY: He did not. He did not. Now, that--

C. CUOMO: No, Diego - Diego was referring to Travis with Mr. English. So, he knew that Travis--

GRADDY: Right. Diego--

C. CUOMO: --was in the loop.

GRADDY: Well Diego sent a text referring to Travis. But, at that point, Larry English didn't know who Travis was, so that didn't mean anything to him. That's just Diego talking about some person in the neighborhood.

And I mean, keep in mind, you and I are coming into this story, at the end, where we know what happens. We know it ends in a killing that may be murder. So, we look back, and we see what's important. We see what's significant.

But when he was living through that and, by the way, he spent most of the time from December 29th through the end of April, he's very - he's very ill man. He was in and out of the Mayo Clinic. He had a heart surgery. You know, his life was not building toward this moment, in his mind.

C. CUOMO: Right.

GRADDY: His life was about trying to deal with his illness.

C. CUOMO: Again, I'm not - I'm not trying to put on anything--

GRADDY: And so, he got to--

C. CUOMO: --on Mr. English.

GRADDY: Right, oh, I understand.

C. CUOMO: I'm not putting anything on him.

GRADDY: I understand. All I'm saying is I had not seen that text.

C. CUOMO: I got you.

GRADDY: And when I saw it, which was last night, so what happened was we were on the phone with The AJC, trying to figure out some dates of the prior incidents, and that's when he found the text, and he sent it to me.

C. CUOMO: Right.

GRADDY: And I said this is Travis. And I don't think - he had not gone back to look at the text before that.


GRADDY: And he didn't remember Travis because it didn't mean anything to him when he was calling.

C. CUOMO: I totally get it. I just - I'm just saying as a point of curiosity, and I was - I was grateful for you to come back to give us access to the surveillance video. Thank you very much.

GRADDY: I'll come every night.

C. CUOMO: I - no, I don't want to do that to you. But thank you for - very much for giving us more information to help make sense of this. Certainly it's very helpful in putting us inside the mind of the accused.

Beth Graddy, thank you, and the best for the health of your client.

GRADDY: Thank you.

C. CUOMO: All right, be well

GRADDY: Thank you.

C. CUOMO: So, what does this mean from a legal analysis standpoint, OK? Let's bring in Laura Coates, former Federal Prosecutor, and talk about this, right after the break.









C. CUOMO: Let's bring in Laura Coates.

So Laura, the McMichaels, at least Travis, sees this man on February 11th, after there is another similar trespass situation, and the owner of the house sends the text of the video, to the neighbor, and the neighbor checks it out, sees the same person.

When Ahmaud Arbery runs past their house on the 23rd, they think that's the guy from the 11th, and they take off after him. That seems to be the best reckoning of the circumstantial evidence we have in this case about where their heads were.

What does it mean to the legal analysis? LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SIRIUSXM HOST, "THE LAURA COATES SHOW", ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT: Well frankly, it comes down to fundamentally that what you've described does not change the inquiry the prosecutor will make, which is whether they were justified in using lethal force against this person, as citizens, not as members of law enforcement, based on their assumption that they recognized someone from days prior.

Why this is so important is because as you look at all the 911 calls, and you look at the discussions of Larry English, and his Counsel, and everything, it comes down to the word, "Property."

They're talking about trespassing in somebody's property. Now, you can, in fact, defend your own home. You could defend your own dwelling. But neither of the McMichaels actually had ownership rights over this dwelling.

Now, why is that important, Chris? It's because they're using lethal force to defend property that they do not own.

This - the law is clear in Georgia that says you could use force, you could use force to defend property, as long as you are lawfully in possession of it, it belongs to one of your family members, or that you have some legal duty to actually protect the property.

None of that is true. It seems as though, based on the way we know the facts, they have taken it upon themselves, to try to defend property that even the owner did not report on the 911 emergency call.

That's extraordinarily important here because it does not change the underlying inquiry of a prosecutor as to whether they were justified to use lethal force or even to stop Ahmaud Arbery in the first place.

C. CUOMO: So, there are two things to unpack here. One is why these new facts don't mean what so many, you know, social media lawyer types, you know, non-lawyers, think it means. And the second is the citizen's arrest analysis.

So first that, people hear this, and they say, "I knew that Arbery was up to no good. I knew it." First of all, we don't even know who the guy is on the 11th. We don't know if it's the same person who was the 23rd.

COATES: We do not.

C. CUOMO: But we do know this that that thinking is exactly why the McMichaels are in trouble in this prosecution because they thought it was the same guy, and they thought it empowered them to go after him, when under the private - the private citizen, the Citizen's Arrest Law, it doesn't do that at all, Laura.

All this does is tell a prosecutor what your motive was, which is usually hard for them to show at trial.

COATES: It's extraordinarily important to notice that in the citizen's arrest statute, Chris, and you're right to even look at it because what it actually says is the only reason somebody--

C. CUOMO: We actually have it, if you want to put it up, while we're talking.

COATES: --is empowered by this statute - the only way that you can be empowered by that statute is if they actually see the crime being committed or have immediate knowledge of it. What you have strung together is a series of assumptions. Not prudence, not careful consideration of the facts of the case.

C. CUOMO: Shoot! Let me try and get Laura back.