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Cuomo Prime Time
The Science of Staying Safe As States Begin Reopening; Andrew Yang: "Democrats Are All About Reopening"; House Passes $3 Trillion Coronavirus Relief Bill. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 15, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Hey, everybody. I am Chris Cuomo. This is actually the second hour for us tonight because we're subbing in for Coop. But welcome to PRIME TIME.
You heard that right, two hours. So, within 48 hours or so, 48 states will reopen in some way. So, "We're back," says the President. Are we, even if we do it unintelligently, even if we do it in a way that opens us up to risk?
We always knew we had to reopen. Can you believe they keep saying, "Reopen or not, that's the question." It's not the question. We have to reopen. It's always been about how.
The President has never talked to you about how. Why? It's too hard. Why do you think? "Reopen, vaccine or not, reopen." "Testing, or not, reopen." Why? Because that's what you want to hear. That's what I want to hear. But that's BS politics.
And let me tell you something, Democrats. You're getting played, too, because you're the "Party of No" because Trump is the "Party of Yes." "Reopen, yay! You guys, but we have to do, but we have to, but we have to," that plays as "No."
We all have to get on the same page. It is not a question of whether to reopen or not. We have to reopen. There is no other choice. The only issue for our leaders is how.
Like Wisconsin, where you have a weird legal battle, nobody wants to work with each other, because of this political BS, where Left and Right is everything and reasonable means nothing?
So, they're reopening like there are no rules, "The Wild West," as the Governor says. Is that the best? No testing, no tracing plan, to prevent any type of outbreak? That's where we are right now.
We have to take a look at the situation. We have to look at the facts. And we have to figure out the best way to get where we want to be.
Now, also tonight, that same formula applies to the case in Georgia. We have new video that gives more context to what the accused thought about Ahmaud Arbery. Were they right? We have a better answer than ever tonight.
What do you say? Facts first. Let's get after it.
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CUOMO: All right, so the President says he knows what's going on. Meh!
I want to talk to someone else. Erin Bromage, Biology professor at Dartmouth University. I want to talk science.
It's good to have you, Professor. Don't freak out. I'm not going to drag you into politics, I promise.
ERIN BROMAGE, PROFESSOR OF BIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS DARTMOUTH: Thanks for having me on the show, Chris.
CUOMO: But I want to tee it up for you, because that's the challenge, right? We're playing a question of this false binary proposal, reopen or not? And the President is on the side of reopening.
And anybody who qualifies that with this nasty talk of testing and tracing, very tedious. This discussion of masks, maddening. They are not about reopening if they're talking to you about those things.
You fall into that camp. What do you want people to know about what the real choice is at play?
BROMAGE: So, when you're going out, you've just got to know the risks like, just like you, I want to get back out. I want to participate - I want to go to a bar. I want to go to a restaurant.
But I want to do that safely and make sure that it's data-driven in the decision that we actually use. So, that's where I come from when I'm thinking and analyzing situations about what my day-to-day life should look like.
CUOMO: So, what I asked the Professor to do, he wrote a really beautiful piece that we saw, a study of what works, and where and how. It's the how. He's all about the how. So, I wanted to bring him in because I believe that's the only question for us.
So, when you look at Wisconsin, what bothers you about it elementally about something we could do, getting back to the bar or the restaurant, but not how they do it, why?
BROMAGE: So, you know, what they - they just opened and they went out and they celebrated. And all of a sudden you end up with lots of people in an enclosed space, you know, bobbing, noisy, and lot of people talking.
[21:05:00] And all the data that is coming out now with these beautiful publications from the scientists on the frontline show that these are the exact spots where you have large clusters, large outbreaks occurring, and it just seems like you're going to go a few steps backwards by - by doing this particular plan.
CUOMO: Which is really no plan, which is to just open up with no spacing, no covering, no kind of discretion. We see something similar when it comes to even open spaces. Indoor, obviously, is a big exacerbating factor.
But even outside, the scenes in Central Park, everybody wants to go outside, the seasons are changing, it's getting to be Beach Season and Lake Season, and park season.
What is the right way in terms of how to do it?
BROMAGE: So, if you're in an outdoor space, the risk drops down straightaway. But you've also got to consider what the current prevalence of the disease is in your community, and it still is quite high in New York.
So, if you are outside, and you are in a park, we still should be practicing appropriate physical distancing between members that aren't in your household. If they're in your households, then you can sit on the same rug together.
But if you are meeting up with people that are not in your household, we need that at least six feet apart in order to stop these transmission chains between houses.
CUOMO: Oddly, my 17-year-old daughter says that if you're in the same household, you must be at least 15 miles away from where she is when she's at a park or the beach. So, I will have to remind her of the science involved here.
To the beaches, California is reopening, but they are following something that does sound like it came out of your research and your recommendations. You can go to the beach. You can run on the beach, you can run in, and swim at the beach, but you cannot sunbathe.
Why is that a fair compromise, in your mind?
BROMAGE: Well, again, outdoor spaces pose low risk, as long as you are maintaining that social distance. You don't want to be in the spray zone of somebody's talking, somebody's sneezing or coughing. You want to keep that distance away.
So, going for a job - jog along the beach, going for a surf, just a walk poses very little risk. But when you are stationary, someone is going to come along, and sit beside you, and you end up closing that distance down.
I don't see a huge problem with a solitary sunbather. But we're creatures of habit, and we start coming close together, and you just might inadvertently break that zone, and then again start a new transmission chain from what should be a nice, relaxing, energizing time outdoors.
CUOMO: So, it's distance and duration. How close are you, and how exposed are you, and for how long?
Now, the boogeyman here, we're getting a break on it right now because the school year is effectively over, in just about everywhere. But in the fall, it will be back, and that is the big challenge.
We're talking about colleges now. But K to 12 is going to be the big sweep, Professor, because people can't go back to work if their K-to- 12ers don't have somewhere to go. How do you do that safely?
BROMAGE: Yes. My son, he wants to go to school. My daughter wants to go to school. I want them at school. And I know that's on everybody's mind. We want that answer. And, unfortunately, we don't have it.
But the fantastic thing that we do have in the United States is time. We're not going back to school this year, but we've got four months before school starts - starts back up in September.
And thankfully, there are countries around the world that haven't got the same disease burden that we have, but they're starting schools back up.
We have time to get the data to make good decisions about whether schools should open in-person come the fall. I know we want those plans now, but we do have time. You know, plan for the worst. It may be remote.
But if we get great data that says children are not involved in the transmission of this, then we can go back to a normal looking, it will be adjusted, but some sort of school schedule. We have time to get good data for this.
CUOMO: And, of course, the more prudent you are now, the less - fewer cases you have carrying into the fall, when you have a whole exacerbation of a lot of different factors.
The way you outline what we have to take into consideration in the classroom really is sobering. I mean, it really is the worst of everything.
You got the same air circulating. You got the density. You got people close to each other for long periods. You have lots of same-surface touching. You have water fountains, social bathrooms, lunchrooms, the transportations. I mean, they really are, you know, the perfect combination of everything we have to look at.
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And Professor, you really do give us the best cause for optimism right now, which is time.
Don't rush it. We shouldn't have been rushing any of this, but that's the political part. That's what you cannot give us an answer to, and you're probably better off staying out of it. BROMAGE: Yes.
CUOMO: Professor Erin Bromage, thank you so much for being with us tonight, the best to your family and the best to you.
BROMAGE: Thank you very much for having me on your show tonight.
CUOMO: No, the pleasure is mine, and I hope you got something from that at home because it's about how. Those are the considerations. He could say, "Yes, beaches. Yay!" He'd be a little bit more popular, I bet you.
"Oh man, now he's got this comma! Comma but!" But that's the big deal. The "But" is everything for us right now, how you do it.
So, whatever you think of the President's talking points on this pandemic, I'm telling you, he's playing it the right way in terms of how you reward your politicians, all right? He may be outmaneuvering some of his fiercest critics on this, in the messaging.
All right, here's the argument. The Democrats are being cautious. They're saying, "Take it easy. We got to go slow. We got to wait." It's frustrating Americans. Let's test with Andrew Yang, is here next, what's the right way politically?
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CUOMO: The only question that people want to know, more than anything, is when do we get back?
The President's answer, "Right now, brother, and sister, right now. I don't care about testing. I don't care about vaccines. I don't care about masks. I won't even wear one. Let's open up, I'm with you."
Now, what are his opponents saying? What is the Left saying? What are the Democrats saying?
"Well, we have to figure out how to do this. We have to be smart. We have to be prudent about it. We may have to take more time. You have to meet - reach the different levels. You got to be going through science with this."
They're right. But maybe they're also wrong, politically.
How so? Well, let's look at it through the lens of November, and let's give this argument the best case it can have from a much more superior mind, former Presidential candidate, Andrew Yang.
Good to see you, brother. How's the family?
ANDREW YANG (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's doing well, Chris. Everyone is happy and healthy. I'm glad you're - you feel like you're a 100 percent, man. I felt for you going through the recovery period.
CUOMO: Man, I felt for me. I was - so, it's good to be back. Thank you very much, Andrew.
All right. So, let's have the - have this conversation with me. Here's my - here's my take. Of course, you got to go through science. Of course, we have to be pragmatic. But man, that sounds like you're holding me back politically.
And when the President says, "Reopen now, brother, anyway we can. Let's get after it, man. This is what it's about. Back to work, back to fun," who do you think they're going to vote for, me or you?
YANG: We all want the same things. And if you look at the polling, Chris, the vast majority of Americans agree that we want to get back to work. We want to be able to go out. But we want to do it in the right way.
And if you look at Georgia, where they said, "Hey, everything's open for business," you know what people didn't do? Run out to bars and restaurants, and actually, you know, like think that everything is a 100 percent back to normal and safe.
Because we're human beings, you know, we're not all just going to say, like, the Governor said, "We're open, so everything is back."
Everyone's on the same page as, frankly, Joe Biden where we want to get - get things open, we want to get the economy going. But the only way to do that is really to get the virus under control.
CUOMO: "Andrew, man, you guys sound like the "Party of No." I'm the "Party of Yes." Let's do it now. Let these people figure out what they want to do, man. I don't think I have to lock you in your house because you don't know how to live your life.
You know, the cases are coming down. We do what we had to do. But now, people are starving. You know, even the stipend you wanted to give people wouldn't be enough for too many people now.
And you guys are all "Buts." "But we got to wait. But you can only do this. But you're going to have to take some time." I'm not about the "Buts." This is politics, Andrew."
Aren't you guys a little worried that you're being put into a box by the President? YANG: No, I'm not worried because I've seen the polls, Chris. The vast majority of Americans are on the same page, where if you look at what they're concerned about.
Number one is health. And that makes sense, because we're in a situation where, you know, our loved ones, you know, our vulnerable, like I haven't seen my mom in months, you know what I mean?
It's like - like that kind of thing, like that's what Americans are thinking about. And so, when you say - say like, "Oh, this is a political winner for Republicans," it's just not borne out by the polling.
The polling supports Joe Biden, and the Democrats, and most reasonable people, which is we want to get things open, but we want to get things open according to the data, according to public health guidelines, and in a way that balances life and death.
CUOMO: But what's going on in this country right now? Andrew, you learned this uniquely. One of the first things that drew to me you - to you as a candidate for my audience was your acronym, "MATH, Make America Think Harder."
Why? Because what's at a premium right now? Not thinking, feeling and acting, you know, science.
"Science is fake. It's all about agendas. And well we have to wait for what they tell us to do. Who?
Who is going to tell us? The Deep State? The guys who said, "Don't wear a mask, don't need a mask, don't wear a mask, you'll touch your face?" Now you have to have a mask, or you're going to die?"
They don't know what they're talking about. That's what's going on in this country, Andrew. You literally wore an acronym. You have it on right now, in the pin, on your lapel because--
YANG: True.
CUOMO: --we do not do critical thinking in this country. We do expedience and what is easy. And easy is reopen. "Don't listen to Yang and the Party of No with all his buts and his science, and his wait, wait, wait. I say, do it now."
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YANG: No, one thing I will say, Chris, is that we shouldn't ever put out extreme scenarios where we - we know we can't all stay indoors until the vaccine arrives like 12 months from now like that's not realistic.
So, this is going to be a period of difficult choices and trade-offs, and that's something that Democrats are leading with, where we know it's not realistic to say everyone is going to be in your home for months on end. So, then we have to start thinking about what the trade-offs are, what are the precautions and measures we can take that will allow us to reopen places of business, to be able to go out to shops again.
And that includes things that most Americans are already adopting around social distancing, and masks, and cleaning, and washing the hands, I mean that like we're all doing it, really. I know--
CUOMO: That's the key. See, that's the key, Andrew. You're saying it the right way. You guys need more "Yang" in that "Gang" because you're saying "Reopen. I want to - I'm a businessman. I want to reopen. I want it now, yes. But like this."
See, that's the key, because what's happening politically is you're letting Trump get away because he's in power, right? You're letting him get away with the onus of power just by saying he wants to reopen. He never has to answer how.
And because you guys seem to be just saying, "Well, we can't reopen, you can't just do it like that," he doesn't have to say how. Whereas if you said, "Yes, we want to reopen, too. We have a plan, do you?"
He doesn't have a plan. He's saying testing is not necessary. Why? Testing is hard. Testing slows down your process of reopening. He doesn't like it. "Masks are bad. Vaccines, you probably don't need. It will disappear miraculously."
I know it all sounds like BS. But in politics, if it feels good, people go for it. You say "Polls." I say "Ask Hillary Clinton about the polls." They change fast and they go with flow.
And people want to reopen. I would have never thought we'd see what we're seeing in Wisconsin, Andrew. I bet you, you know, you and I would have said, "No, no, no, they won't do it like that." Look at Wisconsin.
YANG: Well I mean you can definitely go to a bar and just about anywhere, and find some people who aren't exactly, you know, adhering to social distance guidelines, and whatnot. But if you look at the behavior of most Americans, most Americans take this very seriously.
You know, they're not rushing back out in droves, and it's going to be like that until we get testing, until we get better data real - like the fundamental question here really is the confidence that Americans have to actually go out and feel like they and their family members are going to be safe.
CUOMO: I think it's going to be about opportunity. I think we'll see it here in New York.
You know, this will be a little - look, Wisconsin is a real lab right now about whether or not the polls will bear out or whether opportunity will create the necessity of wanting to join in. We'll see when the beaches start to open, and whether people respect the rules.
But my feeling is, with human nature, when you give people an ability to do something, they start to do it and prudence and caution becomes less of the equation.
But we'll see, and I think it's going to be huge in the election, Andrew. That's why I pushed hard to get you on a Friday night with little notice. So, thank you for taking the call, Andrew. It's good to have you tonight. I've missed you.
YANG: No problem, but yes, Democrats are all about reopening. We just want to reopen the right way that looks out for our people and families.
CUOMO: That's the right way to say it. About time I start hearing it from you people, Andrew Yang. "Who is you people?" The Democrats.
Have a good weekend, best to the family.
YANG: You too, brother. Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right. And look, that's why I went to Yang early on, you know, when he was like one of a field of a gazillion. I was like, "What is that MATH about? What is he trying to push MATH?"
Boy, talk about un-selling, you know, things that won't sell in politics. You know, like "No, no. Make America Think Harder. Critical thinking, what works and what doesn't? Don't be played for a sucker. Don't let people hit you with tired solutions."
What are we doing right now? Come on, let's be honest. I know the polls say we all want to do it the right way. But come on, what are we seeing? People want to reopen, and they want as few restrictions as possible. You're going to see it play out in the election. Remember that.
A lot of newly released video, and new questions about the months leading up to Ahmaud Arbery's shooting death. This is not about what he did and whether that makes what they did OK. No, it isn't.
But if we go back to last autumn, we will see the development of an idea in the head of the accused, something that's so hard in the law to develop that they thought they knew this guy, and they may well have been wrong.
Arbery's mother and one of the family's attorneys are here tonight. They're looking for answers, and so are we, next.
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CUOMO: All right, quick bit of business to go through from Capitol Hill. Breaking news, the House just passed a $3 trillion Coronavirus relief bill. Manu Raju joins us now.
Thank you, Manu, for the quick work. What do we know about the vote?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well the bill passed by a 208 to 199 margin, a very close margin that came in the aftermath at an aggressive effort by Nancy Pelosi, the House Speaker, to lock down votes.
There were a number of Democrats, particularly from, you know, the districts that the President carried who were concerned about this bill. Ultimately, 14 Democrats broke ranks. They voted against this plan.
One Republican, Pete King of New York, voted for it. So, it passed. They needed 204 votes for it to pass. It passed by 208 to 199 margin.
Now, $3 trillion, Chris, this would amount to the largest rescue package in American history if it were enacted.
And this comes on the heels of already passage of several bills that totaled nearly $3 trillion already, which had amounted to the - one of the most aggressive efforts by Washington ever to prop-up the economy during the Coronavirus pandemic.
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Now, Republicans are lined up against this plan. They called it a wish list. They didn't - they contended the price tag was too much. And right now, Republicans, including the White House, are saying there need to be a pause for any additional relief measure.
They are not committing to any other package to move forward, even as some Republicans are calling for an additional package for state and local money, particularly for governments that have been hit hard through this crisis.
In this package, there will be $1 trillion alone for state and local governments, but now that it looks this bill has passed the House but it has no chance of moving forward.
The question ultimately will be what will Congress agree to now, what are the next relief package? That will only intensify pressure, particularly on Republicans, who so far don't want to move forward to make a decision about whether they should start to negotiate with Democrats.
But the Democrats who voted against this, Chris, argue that this was simply a messaging bill that they should have sat down and cut a deal first before moving forward on this. But Nancy Pelosi was able to convince enough of her colleagues that
this was the right way to go, to create the first step, in presumably getting to that bipartisan outcome.
And Chris, one other significant move tonight, the House, for the first time, will now be able to vote remotely. They passed a rules change that would allow the Chamber to operate while Members are away from the Capitol, so they could begin - continue their business.
It's the first time ever in history that the House will allow - be allowed to do just that, and Members are leaving now, and they're going to be gone for some time. I heard one Democratic Member say, "See you in September." So, the House will continue its work, but now away from Washington. Chris?
CUOMO: All right, Manu Raju, thank you very much.
We'll talk more about what the technological difference means. It's not as easy as just saying, "Oh, finally, you're catching up with the rest of us to do things remotely." It means a little something different to not have lawmakers present, and around each other, during a process like this. But we'll get into that in time.
What's important to remember, right now, about that vote, when you don't get something right the first time it's hard to fix it, especially in D.C.
They put all the responsibility for getting us reopen on the states. Testing, tracing, how to do it, all the different regulations, and then they left the states alone.
They didn't give them the money to deal with all the huge shortfalls they have. So states are in pain, and now they have more responsibility than even the Federal Government. That was a mistake and it's going to be tough to fix it.
A reminder, we're only at the beginning of the process in Georgia. And let's be honest, nothing happened for two months, and it seems for no or bad reason.
We now have the McMichaels' attorneys continuing to push that their clients are being vilified, that we don't know the whole story. Well, we don't, but we know a hell of a lot more than we did before we started looking.
We've got numerous videos of unidentified people trespassing at the construction site that Ahmaud visited on the day of his death. The Arbery family attorneys can only confirm that he was there that day, February 23rd.
The neighbor who actually took the video of his death maintains he doesn't know the McMichaels.
And, of course, the Arbery family, which has been pushing for answers long before a video was released is still saying, "We need to know why this happened." Ahmaud's mother, Wanda Cooper-Jones, is with us tonight along with one of the family's attorneys, Lee Merritt.
Ma'am, I am sorry to meet you under these circumstances, but thank you for taking the opportunity to talk to us about your son and what you think of the developments.
WANDA COOPER-JONES, AHMAUD ARBERY'S MOTHER: Thank you.
CUOMO: And Counselor, as always appreciate your attendance. I'm going to talk to you, but feel free to weigh in as you feel warranted.
Ma'am, what do you make of all of these videos that are coming out about who went in and out of this house, and what they might mean? What do they mean to you?
COOPER-JONES: I'm not - well I - actually, I didn't take a look at the videos. I actually am kind of afraid to take a look at the videos. From what I can see from the videos, it doesn't look like my son at all, especially on the 11th.
CUOMO: Do you care, does it matter whether he was in that house or who has been in the house or how many times? What do you think of that entire group of speculation?
COOPER-JONES: That's not really important at this point. What I'm basically focusing on is what happened in the street on the 23rd of February, and when he was killed.
CUOMO: I want to hear something about your son in terms of what you understood, young man, 25 years old, about his character in terms of how he was in confrontation. How was Ahmaud when people pushed up on him the wrong way?
COOPER-JONES: Well, actually, the way that I raised Ahmaud is if - if he was confronted, if he's - getting kind of whether he could avoid it, to really avoid it, but if he was placed in a position where he had to defend himself, I did teach him he had to defend himself.
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CUOMO: Now, Lee, you know why I'm asking. Because the only argument I'm seeing - we heard defense counsel say something very odd, which is they're going to put on evidence.
They have no burden to put on evidence, but they're saying they're going to put on evidence. The only evidence that they can put on is justification. Justification means self-defense to everybody watching us right now.
And Lee, what do you want people to know about what you've learned about Ahmaud, and what that situation was like, from his perspective, that people should remember when they're looking at the videotape and hearing the idea that these guys had to do what they did?
LEE MERRITT, ARBERY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, what we now know from the homeowner who has released several surveillance videos from his property that was under construction was that several people, on a - on a regular basis, stopped by this property daytime, nighttime, without permission.
And none of those people were vilified, none of them were criminalized, only the young Black man that they've - that they - that we - that they eventually caught up with on February 23rd, was criminalized, and certainly he was the only one who was murdered.
And we also learned, just recently, really within the hour, that there was a text message, early on, from Law Enforcement to residents of the Satilla Shores community saying, if you have a trespasser, and you want it dealt with quickly, call Gregory McMichael. That was months prior to Ahmaud's murder.
And so you have that entire community being deputized. And the claim that William Bryan made earlier that he didn't know the McMichaels, and this wasn't a coordinated effort, that claim is starting to be eroded now.
CUOMO: Well hold on a second. Now, I don't know anything about this. And, by the way, let me just clear, this is from The Atlanta Journal- Constitution.
First of all, Ms. Cooper-Jones?
COOPER-JONES: Yes.
CUOMO: I'm sorry that you have to kind of be exposed to this talk about what's going on into the case. Anything that you want to say to people, you are obviously free to say.
But I want to learn, as much as we can, to help people understand this context. And if it gets too much for you, you just let me know. I'll end the conversation, OK?
COOPER-JONES: OK, yes.
CUOMO: And I'll just continue with Counsel because--
COOPER-JONES: OK, thank you.
CUOMO: --how you feel about this matter is more to me, I'll get this information from Lee one way or the other, I'm not worried about that, but as long as you're good.
Lee?
COOPER-JONES: OK.
CUOMO: I don't know anything about this. I know The AJC has it. I don't have it in my own reporting.
But, as we both know, you can't send a text and deputize a community. So, forget about color of authority, this isn't legit. But what do you understand about this text and who it went to? I mean, you can't text a whole community. You know, like--
MERRITT: Right.
CUOMO: --what do you know about this?
MERRITT: So, the text went directly to the homeowner of the - of the construction site, Mr. English.
CUOMO: OK.
MERRITT: And so, that's who it went to.
But in response to that text message, the neighbors got ahold of it, and they said, essentially, their behavior from that point forward was, "Law Enforcement has told us that we can deal with this if we use Gregory McMichael."
And so, it's not a coincidence that Gregory McMichael and his son were seen 10 days later, or weeks later, on a video murdering Ahmaud Arbery.
CUOMO: Now, Greg McMichael was a cop, was no longer a cop, was retired, and there is some speculation about how things went for him during the tour - the end of his tour.
But, still, based on what we see in these videos, Lee Merritt, do you believe that the McMichaels thought they knew who Ahmaud was from the videos, and that that is why they flew out of their house, after him, on February 23rd, when he was just jogging by?
MERRITT: I think they knew that he was on the property that day, and that they knew that an - a Black male was on the property before, and they probably suspected that it was him, and that because of what Law Enforcement told them, they have the authority to try to arrest him, I think that that they had that belief, although that is contrary to the law.
CUOMO: Do we know anything about the police telling Greg McMichael and/or his son that they were in any way empowered to do anything in terms of local policing?
MERRITT: No, only by inference. So, the text message to the homeowner says, "Contact Gregory McMichael. Here's his address and his cell phone, if you have action on that videotape."
CUOMO: What does it mean to you that it seems like one of the - the people on the tape that may or may not be Ahmaud, again, I don't think it's relevant for the legal analysis, but just in terms of what was in the head of the accused, which again is a rare gift.
MERRITT: Yes.
CUOMO: I mean, usually, you don't know what they were thinking. Here, it seems like we got a pretty good idea what they were thinking that the - the guy was there to get water.
What does that mean to you in the - in the clouds of speculation that we're seeing?
MERRITT: So, the homeowner has - he knows the layout of that entire property. He knows that Ahmaud tend to move towards where the faucet was. Then he stayed. Then he walked around.
[21:40:00]
He knows that he never damaged anything that he never took anything that he never did anything illegal on the premises besides possibly being there, although I am not certain that any "No Trespassing" signs were posted.
And so, with all that information, we know that Ahmaud couldn't have possibly been doing anything that warranted a citizen's arrest, which requires a felony, and that - and that these men were acting outside of the bounds of the law.
CUOMO: I know that you're haunted by this, Ms. Cooper-Jones.
COOPER-JONES: Yes.
CUOMO: And I can't imagine being counsel to your head and heart during a time like this. But the more you learn, about what went into this situation, and what was waiting for your son that day, how do you feel about it?
COOPER-JONES: It makes me very angry that, you know, my son's life was - his life was taken so senselessly, and they didn't respect it. They didn't respect his life at all. And he was just a nobody for them.
CUOMO: How confident are you that your son was there on a jog?
COOPER-JONES: Very confident.
CUOMO: And the idea that, "Well, he wasn't dressed for jogging. He had cargo pants on," what does that mean to you?
COOPER-JONES: He - regardless of what he was wearing, my son was out on a jog.
CUOMO: And you'd seen him jog in lots of different outfits?
COOPER-JONES: That is correct, Sir.
CUOMO: And him jogging that distance from home, was that unusual?
COOPER-JONES: Not unusual at all.
CUOMO: Had he ever said anything to you about getting water at a particular house or that anybody was looking at him funny in that neighborhood or anything like that? Did he have any concerns?
COOPER-JONES: No, he never shared any concerns. That's why I know that he was - I mean his death was totally caught off - he was caught off guard. I mean he had no clue that he was in danger. CUOMO: Do you think that Ahmaud - if he knew that people were trying to get him that he would have continued running down the middle of the street?
COOPER-JONES: No, Sir.
CUOMO: What do you think he would have done, knowing your son?
COOPER-JONES: He would have stayed away.
CUOMO: He would have made a break for it, try to get away from the cars?
COOPER-JONES: Exactly.
CUOMO: Hey, Lee Merritt, you said something I wanted to pick up with you on.
MERRITT: Yes.
CUOMO: William Roddie Bryan, he is mentioned in the police report by the accused, by one of the McMichaels, who said, "Roddie tried to head him off." Roddie says, through his attorney, "Not me, not me, I didn't do that."
You said something about what you thought his knowledge of this situation was. What have you developed as an understanding with what basis?
MERRITT: Well really, just sitting and watching what - what's tantamount to a deposition on your show, I listened to his attorney say that he was sitting home, minding his own business, minutes before the murder.
And then, within minutes, he was in his truck, holding that camera, recording Ahmaud being ambushed.
That had to be, by inference, it had to be coordinated. There is no other way to explain how he went from minding his own business to his couch, to minutes later, filming Ahmaud's murder.
CUOMO: Why isn't he even charged?
MERRITT: I think that there needs to be some substantiation of what's being said. I think the McMichaels have finally closed their mouths.
I think, as additional evidence comes out, particularly this evidence that that - I think we're going to find that these neighbors have been talking that they've been sharing information, and - and that additional evidence will come forth that there was coordination between several members of the community, and I expect arrests (ph) going forward.
CUOMO: You know what? There's more I want to talk to you about, Lee, because you got some stuff, you know, we'll - we'll follow up with The AJC, and see if we can get the reporting. But you know what? I can't do it to Ms. Cooper-Jones. If this - if
this were my family, I've heard enough tonight.
Lee Merritt, I'll get in touch with you and circle back about what you understand and the basis and what you think of the videotapes.
Wanda Cooper-Jones, I'm very sorry that the loss of your son has provoked all this. The only thing I can say to you is at least take some solace in the fact that you have a lot of people pushing for answers to make sure that there is no miscarriage of justice here this time that people know what happened.
COOPER-JONES: Yes.
CUOMO: They know why it happened. It's the most complete investigation. It's the most complete public record that we can put together and that we will not ignore this story again. I hope that means--
COOPER-JONES: Right.
CUOMO: --something to you as you're trying to heal with your family.
COOPER-JONES: Yes, thank you so much.
CUOMO: Thank you so much.
MERRITT: Thank you.
CUOMO: And if you need anything, we are a call away, all right?
COOPER-JONES: OK, thanks.
CUOMO: To you both, God bless, and try to enjoy the weekend, if you can at all.
MERRITT: Thanks, Chris.
COOPER-JONES: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right.
I mean, you know, look, enough, you know, the Mom's had enough. There are questions to do a legal analysis. And I got another segment coming up right now with Laura Coates. So, we'll take up some of these questions for her.
[21:45:00]
We don't have that AJC reporting about the text message. But assuming it's something, what would it mean? What would it not mean? What does it inform? Someone who's done these cases, a former Federal Prosecutor, Laura Coates, next.
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CUOMO: So, it turns out a lot of people walked into that construction site, which is pretty typical of a construction site, right?
Now, the young African-American males that show up in the videos, are they Ahmaud Arbery or not? Family says they don't know. And I don't either. The question is why would it even matter?
Let's take this to a top legal mind, former Federal Prosecutor, Laura Coates.
Now, we know why it matters for the accused, because they clearly thought they knew something about Ahmaud Arbery and put him in every one of these locations, and obviously had a thing about him.
But in terms of whether it is him or not, in terms of if there's any basis of making what they did OK, is there anything there?
LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: No. I mean, think about this, Chris.
[21:50:00]
When you want to have a comprehensive and holistic investigation, you want to think about the full timeline. You want to know what transpired.
You want to know if there was any indication to substantiate the claims by Trevor - Travis McMichael and his father about a rash of burglaries to get their state of mind.
That is important for a self-defense claim and for any prudent prosecutor to try to anticipate what arguments are being made. However, the timeline is far too expansive in this respect, when it comes to analyzing this case.
When you're talking about the relevant inquiry that a prosecutor will look at, it's whether there was a justified killing of an unarmed person by not a local Law Enforcement officer, not anybody deputized, but an everyday citizen, executing a citizen's arrest.
And for that reason, for all intents and purposes, Santa Claus could have walked through that construction site. Unless it had some relevance as to the actual altercation between the two individuals, it really has no basis. And frankly, I look at all this as part of a distraction and a concerted effort to try to say, "Hmm, he must have been up to something. This excuses the behavior." But this is precisely why, Chris, whenever there are questions about people, whether there is suspicion, reasonable or not, you call 911.
CUOMO: Right. I'm asking exactly that question, just not about Arbery. I think the McMichaels were up to something.
I think that they heard about him. I think there was some kind of community chat board because they were saying "Oh that we've had a lot of break-ins." No, you didn't. No, you didn't. There are no police reports of burglaries.
COATES: They - yes.
CUOMO: Somebody they - they reported that someone broke into their vehicle and took their - took their gun. That's what they say. But there are no string of burglaries in that area, but they thought there was.
Either they're saying it or not, but for them to fly out of the house on the 23rd, I don't believe they knew that Arbery was in the house on the 23rd. How would they have known just moments before, unless one of these neighbors told them, and they just haven't come forward and owned it up yet?
But if they didn't know he was in the house that day, and they saw him, and they went after him the way they did with the zeal did--
COATES: Yes.
CUOMO: --they were up to something.
COATES: And by zeal, of course, we're talking about armed. They have shotguns.
CUOMO: Yes. And passion--
COATES: They confronted a person who appears--
CUOMO: --to stop him.
COATES: --to be totally unarmed.
CUOMO: To get him to stop.
COATES: Absolutely.
CUOMO: You know, to try to corner him.
COATES: And thought they were entitled to do so.
CUOMO: Mm-hmm.
COATES: And that's the part about it. It's the hunt, it's the chase, and it's also the idea of feeling as though they were entitled to do so.
And yes, again, there is law in Georgia that says you can make a citizen's arrest. But there is criteria that needs to be there. And one of the elements is not whether you used to be in Law Enforcement.
It would be as if somebody who is a retired neurosurgeon says, "You know what? I once performed brain surgeries. Let me go back in right now, and you should all welcome me in the - in the hospital again."
What you used to be does not entitle you to add an element that excuses you from having to meet the other criteria. And that criteria is you had to actually observe a crime or have immediate knowledge of it.
Knowing about or believing you know about previous incidents of a break-in through a construction site is neither immediate knowledge nor firsthand immediate observation.
CUOMO: And not a felony.
COATES: And so when you look at those criteria - it's not a felony.
And, again, speaking of felonies, Chris, if you're talking about the defense of property, which we really are here because, fundamentally, they're talking about them - a person, perhaps Ahmaud Arbery, before the 23rd, but Ahmaud Arbery, according to his family attorney, on the 23rd, if we're talking about him going into a property that did not belong to him, then the person I'm most concerned about, and whose rights I'm concerned about for the property aspect are Larry - is Larry English.
Larry English was two hours away, according to your own interview--
CUOMO: Right.
COATES: --with him and his attorney.
And so, because of that reason, we're talking about the McMichaels engaging in defense of property.
CUOMO: Right.
COATES: And to do that with force, it had to be your property, your immediate family member's property, you had to have the actual duty to protect it, or they had to have committed a forcible felony.
CUOMO: Right.
COATES: That's not walking around an empty site.
CUOMO: Right. And you know who would know that? Former cop who is, you know, on the scene, right?
Now, let me just check something real fast. Vaughn, can I use this other 911 call that we have, or no? All right. Let me play this other 911 call that we have, that we got clearance for, because it's a very different perspective than what we've heard so far.
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(911 CALL MADE ON SAME DAY AS AHMAUD ARBERY SHOOTING)
CALLER: Hello?
DISPATCH: (still ringing).
DISPATCH: 911, what is the address of your emergency?
CALLER: Uh... I'm out here at Satilla Shores. There's a Black male running down the street.
DISPATCH: Satilla... where... where at... where at Satilla Shores?
CALLER: I don't know what street we're on. Stop (INAUDIBLE)... damn it! Stop! ... Travis!
DISPATCH: Sir, hello? Sir... Sir, where you at? Hello? Hello?
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[21:55:00]
CUOMO: Now, Travis is the name that we believe he says in there. So, who would have done that in a moment of, in the law, as we learn it, "In flagrante delicto," in the heat of that moment, would have been the father, Greg.
Now, when you hear that in context, "Damn it, stop, Travis," now, we know they're going to have a split defense.
COATES: My immediate thought is one.
CUOMO: But what's your immediate thought?
COATES: Yes. Well my immediate thought is one.
If we're confirming, in fact, that that was Gregory McMichael, who made that telephone call, my thought was, number one, was he saying to stop to Ahmaud Arbery, who was running? Was he talking to the actual person he was trying to get to stop? Or was he telling Travis McMichael not to engage in lethal force?
And if those three - we have to figure out what those things are. I'm always curious when people have different lawyers, and wondering what their defense is going to be, when they do not have a joint self- defense claim there. I wonder if they will try to delineate that.
And so, my immediate concern is, well, if you did not - the question he said was - what he said to the officer was "There is a Black man running down the street," I know of no code of any State in this country where that constitutes a misdemeanor, let alone a forcible felony that requires the use of lethal force.
CUOMO: Now, I'll tell you what. There's a lot of jokes going around online, African-Americans making jokes, too, memes going around.
I know who it's not funny to, Laura Coates, who has men in her life, and you worry about this, and it's a worry for families all over the country, and it's no joke to us. We'll keep following this every step along the way to justice.
Have a great weekend, my friend. Thank you for making us better.
COATES: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right.
COATES: Thank you. I appreciate the time.
CUOMO: I appreciate Laura Coates. Time with her is time well spent, as with you. Thank you for watching.
Up next, a live CNN Special, "The Color of COVID," D. Lemon, Van Jones, must-see TV.
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