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Cuomo Prime Time
New Videos Give Insight To Arrest Of Black Man Who Died In Tacoma, WA Police Custody; Buffalo Mayor On Police Shoving Of 75-Year Old; Commissioner Goodell: NFL Was "Wrong" On Player Protests. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired June 05, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has nothing. Do not touch her, Sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leave her alone. Sara (ph), just walk away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need to walk away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, get off of her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: On Monday, Park Police said the suspect's 50 years to 60 years old, clearly a White guy, waddling around in his biking cleats, about six feet in height with short brown hair.
The man who recorded the video says he's been back on the bike trail. He won't let this incident stop them. He's putting up more signs. And others have offered to help him.
What a jerk!
The news continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: What a world! What a world!
COOPER: I mean.
CUOMO: They're going to find him too. They're going to find him.
COOPER: Well of course. I mean how many, you know, I mean it's a - yes, it's not a big pool of people like him.
CUOMO: They're going to find him. And then, the interesting part will be who starts to explain this as something other than what it obviously is.
COOPER: Oh, yes. CUOMO: We'll stay on it. Anderson, the best to you, my brother.
COOPER: Thanks, you too.
CUOMO: I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
Look, let's agree on one thing. Things cannot stay the same. The question now is what will change and how.
Mass uprisings this - this past week and a half are born of pain, and motivated by outrage. But their purpose is progress, to get to a better place, a place that is more fair, closer to quality.
But even at these very protests against police brutality, we're still witnessing upsetting new instances of questionable or clearly excessive use of force.
In Buffalo, police shoving a 75-year-old man to the ground, and causing him to fall back, and crack his head open on the sidewalk, bleeding from the back of his skull and his ears. And then officers, watch this, they're just going to move on.
(VIDEO SHOWS BUFFALO COPS KNOCKING DOWN ELDERLY MAN)
CUOMO: The man is in serious condition tonight, and so is the integrity of that Police Department after their initial statement said the man tripped and fell. Did they really think it wasn't going to be on video?
We have the Mayor of Buffalo here tonight. His charge is obvious, make things better. How will he do that?
And there have been more incidents, all over the internet, like this officer shoving a Black protester on his knees, in Fort Lauderdale, that officer was suspended.
Those six cops who used TASERs to take down two college kids, sitting in a car, during the Atlanta protests, they've now been charged. Two of them have been fired.
And yes, protests have been abused. There've been looting and violence and lawlessness. But this is not two sides of the story situation. Your instinct shouldn't be "Well don't just talk about the cops. What about the - the rioters?" This isn't about two sides. We are all on the same side.
The President calls out violent protests but says nothing about why these people are in the streets. He is a wedge, OK? That's what he is. And society needs to overcome his influence, and remember we are on the same side.
And right now, we are not acting that way. And here's the thing. The world is watching. The death of George Floyd has echoed the world over.
Racial inequality isn't an American problem. But the world does look to us to go first when it comes to fighting the good fight. After all, we are the country that takes a pledge to be a land of freedom and justice for all.
So, again tonight, the police are out in force, certainly in New York City. So, let's check in with Shimon Prokupecz, in Manhattan, where another curfew is in effect.
How is it so far?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It's been relatively quiet. The police just actually made some arrests here. But other than this, it's been relatively quiet.
There are several protests going on around the City, small groups. And there was a small group that marched here from Gracie Mansion. We're on 81st and Park Avenue, on the Upper East Side.
They come - came up 82nd Street, and the minute they got to 82nd Street, police decided to move in. What's interesting Chris, is that this is only 30 minutes into the curfew.
Yesterday, we saw arrests about an hour and a half into the curfew. There were 18 arrests here. And it's really discretionary. And I think that's what's really interesting. It's up to, in most cases, the Borough Commander.
So, if you're - if you're marching like past 59th Street, the Borough Commander here, now for two nights in a row, has moved in quick. She has told officers to move in, and make arrests, past the curfew. And that's what they did here. They - they moved in--
CUOMO: Right.
PROKUPECZ: --fairly quickly. It was about 18 arrests. They were all charged with violating the curfew. They made a couple of announcements, the police.
CUOMO: All right.
PROKUPECZ: They told them that they were going to be arrested, and so they were arrested.
CUOMO: You know, look, it's still it's just an unsatisfying situation. You have a curfew, so there's a law in effect, and people protesting, even if they do it the right way, but it's past the curfew, they are subject to arrest. Nobody is happy. We have to get to a better place.
Shimon, keep your ear to the ground, nobody is better at that than you, and stay safe.
[21:05:00]
All right. Let's bring in some better minds, CNN Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson, and Anthony Barksdale, a former Baltimore Deputy Police Commissioner.
It's good to have you both. So, if we all agree that the point has to be to get to a better place where does that begin?
Joey, you'll say justice, in the case of George Floyd because it's teed up. But there are lots of cases going on. And even if the officers are brought to justice, they're tried and convicted and punished, where does that leave us?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well first, Chris, I would say more than justice, I would say accountability. It starts there.
When you talk about what police do, it has to be examined, and police have to be held accountable. We should never be at a place where we're waiting for four days for an officer who committed murder before our eyes to be arrested.
The standard is, is there reasonable cause to believe a crime was committed? We shouldn't be nine days to wait for officers aided, abetted, and assisted to be brought to justice either.
And so, I think if you start with accountability, I think it deters people. People have to know, who are wearing a uniform, that there are consequences to their actions.
Let my position be clear. I think there are very good officers who do their job every day, who protect us, keep us safe. I salute them, without a question. I'm speaking about the officers who would abuse their authority.
Last point, I also believe not only justice, as you mentioned Chris, and not only accountability, as I have mentioned, I believe it in transparency. I think we have to know what goes on.
I believe that there should be an autopsy not that blames the victim, and talks about potential (INAUDIBLE) and heart conditions, and COVID- 19, and high blood pressure, but doesn't mention asphyxiation, until an independent autopsy tells us what we saw that he was really asphyxiated that he lost oxygen.
And so, I think we need to address those things. We need to be honest. And we have to be open with the public. And we have to come together to understand that police work should be about courtesy, professionalism and respect. If we get to that place, then we'll go a long way at resolving the issues at hand.
CUOMO: Anthony, the perspective of having been on the job, and we all know how police - how important they are in communities. In fact, the higher crime is in an area, the more they want police in the area.
Now there are calls, extreme, Joey didn't even mention it, and rightly not, but, you know, "Defund the police. We don't need police. Let's find a different way," that is obviously absurd, in terms of wanting a safe society.
But where do you see the balance in terms of helping police do their job, accountability, transparency and cutting down on abuse of force?
ANTHONY BARKSDALE, FORMER BALTIMORE CITY DEPUTY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Sir, accountability is key. Accountability is the most powerful word in this whole conversation. Officers have to be accountable. Chiefs have to be accountable for their officers.
And right now, across America, from numerous videos, we can see that officers are doing things that are inappropriate, inappropriate uses of force, bad tactics, which means there was bad training.
We have to look at issues, like accountability, like training. And when the other guest says autopsies, let's do an autopsy on the incidents. Let's pull the incidents up, let's see the history of this cop.
Does this cop have signs in his - in his past that show maybe he shouldn't be a cop, maybe we need to suspend this officer, get them off the force? We really have to get aggressive with reform and stop dancing around it.
CUOMO: Are body cameras a must?
BARKSDALE: Sir?
CUOMO: Are body cameras a must?
BARKSDALE: Sure. I have no issues with body cameras, none.
CUOMO: But we - we see like a lot of foot-dragging.
BARKSDALE: They should be on everyone.
CUOMO: And even when they have them now, like Minnesota has a law, where you don't get to see the body camera footage, in all cases. And it just seems to defeat the purpose to me.
In Buffalo, not in Buffalo, but in one of the, I think, in Tacoma, Washington, where the Ellis case is, now you have the City Manager there saying, "Yes, I'm going to allocate the funds emergency. We need body cams."
Why hasn't it happened already?
BARKSDALE: Sir, that's one of the problems across the nation. We have some cities that do the right thing. We have others that don't. We need across the board, across the United States, set - set rules and regulations that Police Departments need to follow.
Everybody needs a camera at this point, use the body camera. And if you cut it off, prior to an incident, you get fired. We got to get serious. Stop playing games with this. Enough!
CUOMO: It helps officers a lot of the time too. Somebody makes a false claim about what happened in the incident.
BARKSDALE: Absolutely.
CUOMO: You have it right there.
Now, all right, so we have fixes that assume, that assume, an environment and an atmosphere of an openness to change.
[21:10:00]
But Joey, and I want to come back to you, Anthony, on this, after Joey goes, but Joey, the idea of culture, what you saw in Buffalo, that is an ugly piece of video.
That old White guy, they push him. He falls backwards. He cracks his head. I thought he was done. Thank God, he's in the hospital in critical condition. But this piece of video, those cops just keep walking by, after like 20 seconds.
And then, all of these officers decide to resign from the detail, in support of the two officers that were called out for this. That speaks to culture, doesn't it, Joey?
JACKSON: It - it really does. I mean, without question, and until we get to a place, where we have an - you know, about the culture, you look at that, and what about the culture of allowing a man to die?
Until we get to a place where officers are going to intervene, and say, "You know what? That's not cool," until we get to a place where officers say, "You know, I'm not going to write a report that gives a false narrative, but I'm going to tell the truth," we're going to be in a bad place, until we get to a place, where officers decide to take action to do the right and positive thing.
Now, again, I want to be clear. I've seen also images, Chris, to be fair, that officers have kneeled with protesters.
CUOMO: Yes.
JACKSON: I've seen image where officers have hugged protesters. I get that. But we're speaking about the larger issue, as you mentioned, of a culture that protects wrongdoing.
And as long as you have a culture that thinks it's acceptable to stand around, and watch a man die, that thinks it's acceptable to push a 70- year-old man till he cracks his head, prevent another officer from assisting him, everyone walks on, and then people resign, we're getting no place.
But I'll say this last thing, Chris, and that's this. I think we've reached the boiling point, where something has got to give. And that starts with the officers who are responsible--
CUOMO: Right.
JACKSON: --bringing them in, arresting them, prosecute them, and convicting them.
CUOMO: But, at the same time, Anthony, I'll give you the last word on this, I - I know this isn't going to be a popular sentiment right now. But I understand. I got a lot of friends on the job.
And they feel that it is one bad guy, all of them get blamed, all 800,000 are bad, that people hate the police, and people don't respect their command anymore, and people don't listen to them on the streets.
Because it's become popular to think that all cops are out of line, and everybody gives them a hard time, and they're scared, and they're worried, and they're thinking they're not going to go home at night, and that may be this job isn't worth doing anymore.
How do we deal with that as part of culture change?
BARKSDALE: You have to understand that policing, at sometimes, it's - it's ugly to see. Some of the stuff that they face is just incredible, and it can be devastating.
But when we have officers who ignore citizens, that are down on the ground bleeding, and step over them, and keep marching forward, there's a problem. And even the good officers need to acknowledge there's a problem.
So, what we need is the good officers to keep doing their job. We need the executives to keep training them, giving them solid training, and everyone be held accountable, for how they treat the public. They can't stop working.
CUOMO: Absolutely.
BARKSDALE: We need them.
CUOMO: Absolutely.
The worst thing in the world could be - would be less police. It's better policing, maybe even more police.
BARKSDALE: Yes, right.
CUOMO: And how you train them. I mean there's - there are a lot of conversations to have.
Once you take the first step is, which is, we're on the same side, and we want to get better. And my concern is I don't see us being in that position yet. But that's why we keep talking, and hope to get us there.
Joey Jackson, Anthony Barksdale, God bless both your families, and thank you for being with me tonight.
BARKSDALE: Sure, thank you.
JACKSON: Thank you, Chris. Keep having these conversations.
CUOMO: Absolutely.
Look, I know every one of the conversations, in and of itself, is somehow unsatisfying. But you have to take progress where you find it. You can't let perfection be the enemy of progress because look at where we are now, look where we're starting from.
We've got a lot of good cops. But we had too many cases like George Floyd's. And nothing has really done - been done in a way that makes us feel like they are the exception, even if statistically they are.
So, let's start from there. Floyd's alleged murder is not a one-off. Too many happen that are not caught on video. They all matter. So months before, what we're living through right now, four officers had another Black man in cuffs on the ground. Again, he cried out. Again, the man died.
We have a witness to the fatal arrest of Manuel Ellis in Washington State here, and we have the Ellis Family Attorney with us. That case is now, deservedly, getting a lot of renewed attention. Let's go through the facts, next.
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[21:15:00]
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: The Mayor of Tacoma, Washington, is demanding that four police officers be fired, and face prosecution, after the release of a video, showing cops striking a Black man named Manuel Ellis before he died in their custody.
This all happened three months ago. We're just seeing the video now. There are two videos, so far. Both were shot by someone driving by, not by police body cameras. It is important to note the two clips, both under a minute, do not depict the entire incident.
The second video appears to show Mr. Ellis, on the ground, as officers tell him to put his hands behind his back, OK?
The woman who took the videos, her name is Sara McDowell, and the Ellis family's Attorney, James Bible, they both join us now.
[21:20:00]
Thank you, Counselor. Thank you, Sara, for joining us.
JAMES BIBLE, ELLIS FAMILY ATTORNEY: Thank you.
SARA MCDOWELL, WITNESS TO MANUEL ELLIS' ARREST, TOOK VIDEO OF MANUEL ELLIS' ARREST: Thanks.
CUOMO: And Sara, let's start with you. First of all, how are you? This was a few months ago. How did it affect you? How have you been? MCDOWELL: It was really, really just stomach sickening for a while, like just thinking about it, and knowing now that he's gone, it's definitely harder. It's like this - it makes me really just upset about it, and this - seeing it and knowing that this whole time, he lost his life that night, it's just - it's mind-blowing.
CUOMO: Why did you take the videos?
MCDOWELL: Because I've seen nothing happening. And once I seen the officer open the door so hard, and - and knock him to the ground, it scared me.
And I just - I need - like needed to make sure that I got like what was first happening just to show that he didn't do anything because they were like he was just being really aggressive, the passenger police officer.
So, I definitely knew something was going to happen or just he was going to get hurt by them like just the way they were acting and being.
CUOMO: And why did you want to have video of it?
MCDOWELL: Just in case something did happen. And just I - what I saw wasn't right, when he opened the door, and nothing happened, it's just it wasn't right, so, yes.
CUOMO: Sara, let me play for you what the Tacoma Sheriff's Office said, in terms of describing how this went down. And I want your impression of how that meets with what you saw with your own eyes.
MCDOWELL: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED TROYER, PIERCE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: He contacted the police, and obviously was in distress. They asked him if he needed help, and he said he had warrants, and that he wanted to talk.
So, they got out to talk to him because he was obviously in distress. And when they did that, he assaulted one of the officers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now, forget about all the part about why he called them. Mr. Bible, I'll deal with you about that.
But in terms of the idea that when the officers got there, and they approached him, he attacked them, were you there during a time frame when you can assess whether or not that's how this initial situation happened?
MCDOWELL: That absolutely did not happen.
They were both in the car. And Manny was standing away from the car. He didn't touch the people. I saw Manny at the beginning, when he was walking on the sidewalk, and the police officers got his attention, whatever.
Manny walked to the car a little bit, wasn't touching it, nothing, turned around, and was going back to the sidewalk, when the officer opened the door, and smacked him, made him fall. There was - yes.
CUOMO: Two questions. One, are you sure that was the beginning of the situation? Is there any chance you came late to it?
MCDOWELL: No, I'm positive. And it wouldn't make sense to me if the police officers, if that all happened, and police - why would the police officers get back into their cars like--
CUOMO: Good point.
MCDOWELL: --why would they get back in the car? So, yes--
CUOMO: Second question. "Manny," you call Manuel. Did you know him?
MCDOWELL: No, I did not.
CUOMO: OK. Mr. Bible? Thank you very much, Sara. Mr. Bible?
BIBLE: Yes.
CUOMO: The idea of the way this started was Manuel calling the police for help. Is that your understanding?
BIBLE: What I will say is that, at this stage, the Sheriff's Office has - has put forward three or four different renditions of the facts. It's been ever-changing. Every time we come up with additional information, they come up with a wholly different story.
First, they say he's attacking cars. Then they say he attacked their car. Now they're saying he walked over to tell them that he had warrants. It's ever-shifting, ever-changing, based on additional evidence that we actually are able to get, in this particular case.
All that we do know is that Manny was feeling good about his day, had just come home from church, was just getting some snacks, and walking back to his apartment.
CUOMO: All right, Mr. Bible, thank you very much for your perspective on this. Sara?
MCDOWELL: Yes.
CUOMO: This is a tough spot for you to be in. But I hope you're sure of one thing. Putting eyes on this, and taking video of it, was tremendously
valuable, not just to the life that's gone, and that family, but to your whole community, because people got a chance to see things.
And I know it's not the whole incident. I know that you have to have a full investigation. But I know this has got to be hard for you. I just hope you understand
that you did something that may make a big difference, in terms of helping people understand what happened. So, thank you, I wish you well, and Mr. Bible, the same to you, and the Ellis' family.
BIBLE: Thank you.
MCDOWELL: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right, be well, God bless.
[21:25:00]
One way to get better, right, it had - we have to become obsessed with getting better. We have to. We have to take the energy that we're putting into "Well this guy was probably on drugs, and who is she, who knows whether she knows?" You got to get out of that mindset.
We have to have investigations. You have to know the facts. But we have to get out of the "Us-and-them," "Us-and-them," and into the "We," and how do we get better.
One huge way is by jumping on obvious examples of bad conduct. That takes us to Buffalo, after the break.
This case of this senior citizen, knocked down and out cold, is exactly what we're talking about. This is a no-brainer. Everybody saw it. You know exactly what happened there and why it happened. But the police department's instinct in how to explain it was proof of the problem we must fix.
The Mayor of the City is here with a lot of outcry to address, next.
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CUOMO: 75-year-old protester's in Buffalo - Buffalo, New York, still in the hospital tonight, recovering from the head wound that he got at the protest. This happened in plain sight. Here it is.
(VIDEO SHOWS BUFFALO COPS KNOCKING DOWN ELDERLY MAN)
CUOMO: And I know people keep saying - look, I know. This is - this is little rough to watch. We're just showing you where he fell. If you go down, and look at him, you're going to see blood coming from the back of his head, and out of his ear.
[21:30:00]
You know, you're supposed to be warned. Don't look at it, if it's too much for you. Is reality too much for you, really, at this point?
The streets filled with outraged people, we're trying to figure out how to get better. This is the reality, man. Let's accept it, so we can figure out how to get better then, all right?
The video taken is clear. We know what happened. He was shoved to the ground. That's the explanation. Period! But police initially said the injury was a result of his tripping and falling in their midst.
An investigation is now underway. The two officers involved have been suspended without pay.
In a surprising turn, today, all of the active members of that ERT, Emergency Response Team, 57 of them resigned from the unit, out of solidarity for the two officers. What does that say about where we are, and where we need to go?
Buffalo Mayor, Byron Brown, joins me now.
Good to see you, Sir.
MAYOR BYRON BROWN (D-NY), BUFFALO: Good to see you too, Chris.
CUOMO: Two things. First, the idea of the 57 officers saying, "We support our two guys. This is wrong. We want off the detail," your response?
BROWN: That was pushed by the Police Union. The Police Union indicated if those officers continued to participate in that unit, they would lose the support of the Police Benevolent Association in Buffalo.
The Buffalo Police Union is on the wrong side of history. They are wrong in this situation. They have been a barrier to further police reform in the City of Buffalo. And that barrier, that the Police Union presents, needs to be addressed.
CUOMO: The idea that the initial response from the PD was he "Tripped and fell," that's a BS explanation, and they had to know it was on video. So, what does that tell you about what you're dealing with there?
BROWN: The explanation that I got, as Mayor, was it was a fluid situation. Commanders were in a Command Center. They were getting information back from the field. That is the initial information that came in.
It was wrong. They got it wrong. Very shortly, video evidence came in. They were clear that they were wrong. They corrected that they were wrong. They put out the correct information.
That information went to the Police Commissioner and myself. And the Police Commissioner made the immediate decision to suspend those officers without pay.
CUOMO: Help people understand that they should believe that it was basically an innocent mistake of first information in, first information out, and not a cover-up.
BROWN: Well, as you say Chris, all of the officers were wearing body cameras. That area of the City of Buffalo is a public square with City, State, and Federal buildings that are cameraed.
An investigation was going to ensue. An investigation was going to be conducted. There is no way that that would be covered up. So, I do believe it was an innocent mistake. The mistake was corrected.
The Police Commissioner did the right thing. He immediately suspended the two officers involved, without pay, and opened up an Internal Affairs investigation.
CUOMO: One more question about the problem, then I want to turn to the solutions.
The problem I have with the explanation, Mr. Mayor, is it's so obvious what actually happened.
And there were so many cops there, and so much media there, and so many people there, that I don't know how the statement could have ever been put out in good faith, because anybody putting out a statement like that would have to be in an atmosphere of people, who know it's not true. And yet, they put it out anyway.
BROWN: The statement was put out not by officers in the field. It was relayed to officers working in a Command Center. That was a distance away from where the event occurred. They did not have eyes on the situation. That was information that was relayed to them.
That information was very quickly dispelled after an initial incorrect assessment of the situation went out. And that incorrect assessment was very quickly corrected, and the proper information was put out for the media and the public.
CUOMO: Now, not to overgeneralize, Mr. Mayor. I know your City well, as you might imagine. I've worked with the Buffalo PD on stories in the past. And we all know who my brother is, and your relationship with him.
[21:35:00]
Your task is to make things better.
BROWN: Yes.
CUOMO: How do you get the trust of the community? We know that overwhelmingly cops are good cops. But we know that overwhelmingly we have a culture problem across this country.
I don't have to tell you. You've lived it. And now, you're dealing with it as a leader. How do you make things better? BROWN: We have to listen to people. What the activists are saying is that we must listen that they have ideas, they have recommendations. They want some of those recommendations implemented.
We have been meeting with the activists' community in the City of Buffalo. The Police Commissioner has met with the activists' community. I have met with members of the activists' community.
There will be meetings tomorrow. Hopefully, those meetings will bear initial fruit to make some recommend - recommendations for change.
I also believe that the Buffalo Police Union has been a barrier to change. And some of the - some of the obstacles that that Institution represents have got to be addressed. The majority of our officers, in the City of Buffalo, the vast majority, 99 percent, do the right thing. Want to do the right thing.
The Union has been a barrier. It has been a problem. It has to be taken - it has to be looked at very seriously for the full amount of reform that needs to take hold to be implemented in the City of Buffalo Police Department.
CUOMO: Two quick things. One, do those officers, who say they want off the detail, do they still have your trust?
BROWN: They still have my trust because I think they were essentially threatened by the Police Union.
CUOMO: OK. OK. Other thing, why did they walk past the guy, once they saw that he cracked his head on the sidewalk, and started to bleed out of his ears?
Why didn't they stop and, you know, at least create some situation around the guy to keep him from getting run over, you know, essentially, and moving forward? It seems so callous.
What's the answer on that?
BROWN: Chris, it did - Chris, it did look callous. It did - it did look very bad.
What I am told is the Emergency Response Team officers are trained to keep moving forward. Embedded with them are medics, officers that have first-aid training. The medics were just behind the first line unit that continued to move forward.
And within seconds, the medics rendered first-aid assistance to Mr. Gugino, and made sure that Mr. Gugino safely got into an ambulance, where he was transported to Erie County Medical Center to receive medical treatment.
CUOMO: We'll be looking at the fruit of the investigation, Mr. Mayor Byron Brown, good luck to you in Boston - Boston - in Buffalo, and good luck--
BROWN: Thank you, Chris. CUOMO: --making things better.
BROWN: Thank you, Sir.
CUOMO: All right, a major admission today. Now, again, it's how do we get better? This is a potential step, OK?
The NFL, after all those anthem protests, right, Trump's big moment, you take a knee, "Sons of bitches," knee on the throat, nothing, well the NFL has had a change. We're about to talk to an NFL player who's also Ahmaud Arbery's cousin. What does he think of what just came out of the Head of the League Office?
Plus, we have another important voice of concern to react. D. L. Hughley is here tonight.
Both, next.
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[21:40:00]
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CUOMO: Breaking news!
NFL Commissioner, Roger Goodell, is now saying he admits the NFL was wrong for not listening to its players who spoke out and protested against racism. Here's a piece of his statement released just two hours ago.
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ROGER GOODELL, NFL COMMISSIONER: We, the National Football League, condemn racism and the systematic oppression of Black people.
We, the National Football League, admit we were wrong for not listening to NFL players earlier, and encourage all to speak out and peacefully protest.
We, the National Football League, believe Black Lives Matter.
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CUOMO: "Peacefully protest," what does that mean? Does that mean that you can take a knee now, or does it not? This comes a day after a group of Black players released their own message, asking the League to take action. Here's a look at that.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many times do we need to ask you to listen to the players?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What will it take?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For one of us to be murdered by police brutality?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What if I was George Floyd?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I was George Floyd?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What if I was George Floyd?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I was George Floyd?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I was George Floyd?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, joining us now on the phone is NFL player, Tracy Walker. He's a Safety for the Detroit Lions. He's also the cousin of Ahmaud Arbery, the unarmed man in Georgia, whose shooting death was captured on video. It is a murder case.
Tracy Walker, can you hear us?
TRACY WALKER, NFL PLAYER AND COUSIN OF AHMAUD ARBERY: Yes, Sir. I can. And thank you for having me.
CUOMO: Well I thank you for being with us. I am very sorry for your loss. I've spoken to the family a couple of times. And I am sorry for what you're going through. And hopefully, it is a window into getting us into a better world.
What, first, does this statement from Roger Goodell mean to you?
WALKER: Well it definitely means a lot because that's the first step I felt like - like us all uniting as one, and trying to accomplish the common goal that we're trying to reach for it, which is equality.
[21:45:00]
So, I felt like, you know, as far as, and everybody just trying to unite as one, and trying to overcome this obstacle that we've been facing for decades, you know, this is something we're still trying to battle, and so I feel like it's great that we are getting all the support and we're all supporting each other in this time.
CUOMO: Do you think it means that it's now OK for people to protest on the sideline during the Anthem? You think that's what the Commissioner meant?
WALKER: I believe he - he means that, you know, he understands (INAUDIBLE) he first, you know. There's a lot of guys that - that didn't back it up, you know, because it felt like it was more of attacking Flag, instead of what it really was, you know.
CUOMO: Right.
WALKER: And I feel like, you know, the messages were - were a little different, you know, it was cloudy.
And some, you know, a lot of people didn't understand what was going on. So, I felt like now, basically the message is now that we need to be better, you know. And, right now, I feel like everybody sees that we got to be better, you know.
Like I said, we have Black, White, Puerto Rican, you name it, Asian, in the NFL. You got all types of diversity in NFL, man. We all play each other, and we all see each other as one, you know. We don't see each other as no better than anybody else.
So, for the things that we're going on right now, that are - that are going through that - that we're basically going through right now, I felt like, you know, we need change, and we all see that. We all see that we got to come together and basically, you know, unite as one.
And like I said, you know, if we don't buy in, and unite as one well we're going to continue to still go through this. So, I feel like that's kind of the step we're taking right now.
CUOMO: What do you want people to know about your cousin?
WALKER: Man, he was a great, great soul, man. He was a funny person. You know, he was always about having a good time, you know.
He was no person to beef with people. Like I said, he stays in his own lane. He wasn't the type to go out and cause trouble. He was - he's always wanted to have a good time, and put smiles on people's faces, man.
Ahmaud was, like I said, he - I mean I just think of him. I laugh and I smile now just thinking about the stuff he used to do, you know, and it's just - it's crazy to see that he's not here no more.
So, I just feel like man, people need to understand that he was, man, he was a great human being, and he wasn't no type of person that you - you would just come in, and have conflict with that he was just wasn't that type of guy.
CUOMO: Well I know the way he was taken from this world has - has to be horrible for you and the family. And, of course, we're watching the search for justice in that case, got off to a bad start.
But hopefully, you keep smiling and laughing about his memory, and that that's how you remember him, not how he died, but how he lived. And Tracy Walker, I wish you the best, your family the best, and I wish you a great season and a great career.
WALKER: Well I definitely appreciate you. And then, again (INAUDIBLE) man. And I got to say, we're going to continue to mourn Ahmaud, you know, RIP.
CUOMO: All right, thank you very much. God bless, and be well, to you and the whole family.
WALKER: Thanks, man.
CUOMO: I want to bring in now, Radio Host and Author, D. L. Hughley. He's got a new book next month, called "Surrender, White People!: Our Unconditional Terms for Peace."
It's always good to see you, my brother.
D. L. HUGHLEY, COMEDIAN: Likewise. I'm glad you're doing a lot better, man. I was worried about you for a minute. But then, you're a Cuomo. So, I know you'll be all right.
CUOMO: Yes, I know. We're like cockroaches.
I see you have a little iced tea with you, Thank you for reaching out when I wasn't feeling well. You're a good friend.
HUGHLEY: Sure. Sure.
CUOMO: And you're a good man.
HUGHLEY: Sure.
CUOMO: Where are we? Where are we, big brother?
HUGHLEY: I think--
CUOMO: Where are we right now?
HUGHLEY: I think ultimately, we're not realistic.
In the same - within the same three-day span, you have Roger Goodell making a statements and - and admitting the NFL, and - and the problem with systemic racism.
Three days before that, you had the Coach of the Denver Broncos saying that that he didn't see racism.
So ultimately, and even the way we quantify things, Ahmaud Arbery, whether he was a good man, a funny man, or a bad man, or whatever he was, it isn't his person - that - personality that should have determined whether he was killed or not.
It's his humanity that we - that we almost have to explain that this ain't one of the ones you're scared of. This is a good one. This is the one that shouldn't be getting - his humanity should dictate that it could not - that you can't summarily murder people like that.
And it's the way we assess things like everybody always says 99 percent of the police are good.
But we have the FBI in 2008, and 2015, and 2017 say that the police departments across the United States of America were infiltrated with White Supremacists and White Nationalists. So, all those things can't be true.
CUOMO: Well it's not an all--
HUGHLEY: That you can't - you can't have - have 90--
CUOMO: I hear you.
HUGHLEY: You can't have all these who are good people. And then - then one other point, Chris.
CUOMO: Go ahead.
HUGHLEY: If they're good apples--
CUOMO: Go ahead.
HUGHLEY: If they're good apples, what were the men who were watching George Floyd be murdered? What were those men? Were they good apples who just won't do anything because what do good apples do when bad apples are taking lives?
[21:50:00]
CUOMO: And I'll tell you something else, little side point. I think the prosecution against two of those three other police officers is going to be tricky because they're newbies.
HUGHLEY: Well here's the thing. I think that you're absolutely right. I think when they - when they came out and - and charged him with third-degree murder, let's be clear, third-degree murder wouldn't - third-degrees - three degrees wouldn't warm up a pizza.
Right below three degree - third-degree murder is hunting without a license. It's the most benign thing I've ever heard. It was murder.
And we need to understand that the same brutality that America is seeing, across the streets every day, are the - is the same brutality that - that Black people have been telling America that had existed for eons.
CUOMO: So they--
HUGHLEY: And now, they are forced to see it, and they're necessarily comfortable with the image, and they're not necessarily being honest about it either.
CUOMO: I think it's hard on a lot of different levels. And I think that it is so easy to be a wedge, it's so easy to make people want to blame the other side or exempt themselves from any type of responsibility.
The hard part is moving it forward. You can do all the investigations you want and find different changes to make. You obviously have a culture issue, when it comes to policing. HUGHLEY: Yes.
CUOMO: No matter what color the policeman is, by the way, it used to be the myth was--
HUGHLEY: Yes--
CUOMO: --if you had more Black cops, this would be better. That hasn't really worked.
HUGHLEY: Sure.
CUOMO: But in terms of getting--
HUGHLEY: Well--
CUOMO: --the majority to understand the needs of the minority, how?
HUGHLEY: It's very simple. The men - the officer that took George's life had had 18 complaints in 20 years, 18.
The only person - the only professions where you have 18 complaints from the public, and still keep your jobs, are policemen and priests. That's it, and maybe a President or two.
So, the idea - and the fact that that man not only got to stay on the Force, but he was placed in an area where he was most likely to run into people, who he would be able to brutalize, that's not on - that's not an accident.
If you look at this systematically, you'll see a pattern of brutal officers, undisciplined officers, being put in the proximity of our communities.
Of course, when White people say "Most of the cops I know are good," they're right because they would never get the level of policemen that we get. They - that same officer would never be in - in proximity of people of affluence.
So, there are people that should not have jobs. If you - if you curse on the air enough at the very job you do, or I did the same thing on my radio show, or any other platform, I would lose it. I would have forfeited.
Why - why do they get to keep forfeiting the public trust and being able to keep their job? I don't understand it.
CUOMO: You are right. And that is certainly something that can change. But there's a bigger level here, too, of recognition of the need. If this was happening to the majority, it would have stopped a long time ago.
HUGHLEY: Sure.
CUOMO: So, you know, it's always, like, you know, you have to make sure you don't brutalize the wrong person. HUGHLEY: Right.
CUOMO: Because then it gets too much attention, and people are angry, and now it's got to stop. I wonder if George Floyd--
HUGHLEY: But--
CUOMO: --turns out to be the wrong person because of the timing of COVID and Ahmaud Arbery, and then this one, all together at once.
HUGHLEY: It's--
CUOMO: And the video. But I still am worried about fade. And that with time it will go away. And we don't work on the kinds of reforms--
HUGHLEY: It's - it's--
CUOMO: --and the tough work that has to be done.
HUGHLEY: It's really simple, man. You need to do what it is you're supposed to do.
Like, I'm glad that all these corporations, and all these police officers, I'm glad that they're doing what they're doing. I'm glad that police officers are marching with protesters.
Now, march one of your officers, violent officers into disciplinary action. Now, hold them accountable like you're holding these protesters' hands.
It's great that Bank of America offered $1 billion to deal with racial inequality. Now, stop discriminating against Black people against loans. Do the right thing. Do what it is that you know you're supposed to do. Do what it is you would do in the light.
And now you have - it tells you a lot about a culture when they know that the world is watching, and they're kicking ass like nobody's business. They could care less.
And what you saw in Buffalo was an example - you can say when - when two police officers are disciplined for a callous, cruel act, and 57 of them resign in protest, that says that they see that action as excessive one.
So, when that happens, that's a good day. That's a good day when those men disavow themselves - disconnect themselves from the public, because they would be more trouble later on.
CUOMO: They didn't quit the job. But they moved off the detail. But I take your point.
I think that the step-forward for us is, one, more of this talk about what we see that's good, what we see that's wrong, and keep more attention on it, so that, over time, I think that builds culture as well.
All I know is whatever solution there is, in my work, is going to involve you, D. L., because--
HUGHLEY: You're like - I'm going to tell you.
CUOMO: --I'm not just a fan.
[21:55:00]
HUGHLEY: And you are - you are my brother. And I'm going to tell you this. You know how bad it is when Michael Jordan says something. That's when you know it's bad. When Michael Jordan weighed in on it, you know it's a horrible situation.
CUOMO: Well, the hope is that getting that kind of consensus gets us to a better place. We'll see and we'll be along together for the ride. I promise you that.
HUGHLEY: Good to see you, man. I hope you feel - stay strong, man. And leave your brother alone. He's a good man.
CUOMO: Please!
HUGHLEY: He put up with you all these years.
CUOMO: He is a good man. But he gets what he deserves. We'll be right back. Take care, D. L.
HUGHLEY: All right, now.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: How do we get better? The answer is by doing anything you can to get better. Black Lives Matter is now painted on the other side of Lafayette Park, which borders the White House.
Who did that? D.C. Mayor, Muriel Bowser, commissioned the painting, and renamed the area as Black Lives Matter Plaza, complete with official street signage. She says, in America, you can bring your grievances to your government, and you can demand change.
Thank you for watching. CNN TONIGHT with D. Lemon starts right now.
Of course, Bowser picked that area because that is where the President had peaceful protesters shooed away, for his photo-op, where I believe he was holding the Bible upside down.
