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Cuomo Prime Time
GOP Governor Of Texas Urges People To Wear Masks; COVID-19 Cases Explode In At Least 30 States; Colorado Governor Orders New Probe After Unarmed Black Man Died In Police Custody. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired June 25, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: Hello everyone. I'm Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
Too many of us are led by too many people, who refuse to do the right thing. And now, at least 30 States have surging Coronavirus cases. And here is the really scare part of the potential impact of the mismanagement.
The CDC thinks there may be 10 times as many of us sickened by COVID than what's actually reported. Think about that. It would mean that it could be 20 million of us, not 2 million-plus.
And yes, of course the President owns it. Why? He is Mister "Masks are weakness." He is Mister "Do the minimum" to help States protect people. But he is sending marshals to protect statues that honor racist figures from our past.
And no, I'm not talking about Lincoln and Washington and Jefferson. And you know it.
Find me another time, a President faced a problem like this, and chose to encourage people to do what would expose them to more risk.
"He did it his own way, not the government way," says his campaign ad. And you know what? Something from Trump is finally telling you the truth. He did do it his own way. He ignored the danger. He held rallies. And if you have a mask on, the move every expert he picked recommends, he takes it as a personal affront.
Now, don't go saying, "Well, he doesn't know." It's not about ignorance. How do we know? A White House official says to CNN that Trump knows masks matter but he thinks the image looks bad for him politically. Want more proof of his perfidy, perfidy, faithlessness to his Office?
He tells you, "No mask needed." But everyone close to him wears a mask. Says, "Test less. I tell my guys, test less." All around him get tested. "It's overblown. It's the Left." Now he has multiple Secret Service in quarantine.
Need more? All his campaign staffers, all, who attended his rally in Oklahoma, Saturday, are now quarantined. Eight of them tested positive. Did he make them all sign waivers, too, "Don't sue?"
Remember, he told people to come to the rally. Made wearing masks absurd, then had them sign waivers in case they got sick. You tell me that that is not the worst leadership imaginable.
But the blame goes beyond Trump. Why? What about the leaders around him in his Party? You hear that? That's them telling him to shut up with the mask madness.
And when they do speak, here is Ranking Republican McCarthy, request to a no-brainer question. Here is his response to a question about whether or not it's good for a President to call COVID "Kung flu."
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MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the President has been describing the Coronavirus, he's been calling it the "Kung flu." Do you think that's an appropriate way to characterize the Coronavirus?
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Do you think that's the most pressing issue you have about the Coronavirus?
RAJU (voice-over): I'm asking you what you think about that.
MCCARTHY: I know. But what I'm thinking about is why that is your most pressing issue as a question?
RAJU (voice-over): Well can you answer the question?
MCCARTHY: When we just seen a spike in Coronavirus, you're concerned about somebody and the way they name it.
RAJU (voice-over): You're--
MCCARTHY: That's appalling to me. You know what?
RAJU (voice-over): Why - why--
MCCARTHY: I think we should all focus, learn more about this disease, and stop this virus.
So no, that's not my biggest concern. My biggest concern is the safety of Americans, and that's what I look for.
RAJU (voice-over): And should testing be ramped up?
MCCARTHY: Thank you all very much. I appreciate the time.
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CUOMO: You don't appreciate anything. And you should get right back to that podium because we know you don't have the gumption to come on a show like this. You hide. You go to State TV. You stay quiet.
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Big man, Mr. McCarthy, strong, strong leadership, tells everybody all the time. "I'm not afraid of Trump. I'm not afraid of anything." Come on the show and tell me that you're appalled by questions about "Kung flu."
I'll tell you what is appalling. You haven't said a damn thing about what this President has been misleading America about and you know it.
Think about if it were your daughters. Think about it. Would you want them going with no mask? Would you tell them masks are weakness? Is that what you're doing for them?
How about your parents? How about your vulnerable people in your family? You telling them, "Go on out there. Take a deep breath. What's the worst that can happen? What do you have to lose?"
You're appalled! You are appalling. You're not appalled. You're not appalled at all.
You ducked the question because you can't risk your fealty to the President because he keeps you in power. You fear him. You're one of those politicians that does things out of a fear of consequence. You're not about good conscience.
Prove me wrong. Show me where you said "The President is wrong to talk down about masks. We have to do better. We have to contact trace." Where is it? Where have you said it?
"We need to learn more about the disease." You're not applying what you already know. And why? That's the question.
We don't need to know any more about what we need to do. You want to see proof of it?
People who sang the Trump song to show this absurd - this perversion of Republicanism, Republicans aren't about flouting science. Republicans aren't about not caring about the facts. This is a fringe. That's what it is. And when they play the game more and more, they're getting burned.
The Governor of Texas, listen to him now.
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GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): I know that some people feel that wearing a mask is inconvenient or that it is like an infringement of freedom. But I also know that wearing a mask will help us to keep Texas open. (END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: You went too soon. You played the game. You got burned. And now you want to play it the right way. But you're late. And the cost is real, and it may come in lives. So now he's got to grind it to a halt.
You remember on this show, you remember us reaching out to him, and to having different mayors, because again, he wouldn't come on. These guys have so much to say, as long as nobody questions what is said.
As soon as they have to account for their decisions, and their arguments, just State TV, nodding heads. "Yes. Masks are mind- controlled. Yes."
Come on! Hospitals inundated with an explosion of patients, "We're so surprised." What surprise? What did you think would happen? You played politics instead of protecting people. And there should be a price.
Take a look at Houston. It could become the hardest-hit City in America soon. And there is no reason we needed to be here. None! We had advance warning. Houston is a sophisticated place. Texas is a sophisticated place, plenty of resources, plenty of foresight. But here we are.
Houston Mayor, Sylvester Turner, Sir, thank you, for coming to PRIME TIME. Thank you for taking the opportunity.
I am not hanging on you the mantle of what got you here. But now, you have to figure out how to get out of it. I mean tell me if I'm wrong. But I've been covering your State from jump on this.
And Abbott was right up there with the Trump talk of, "Oh, you know, this isn't that bad. You know, we got to keep everything open. You know, I mean we don't need to do this kind of isolation. Nothing extreme. We're opening early because we're strong. Don't mess with Texas."
How did that work out?
MAYOR SYLVESTER TURNER, (D) HOUSTON, TEXAS: Well Chris, it is not working out too well at this moment.
I will tell you, when - when New York shut down, in March, the City of Houston shut down as well.
The end of April, our numbers were - were quite good, relatively speaking, they were quite good. Through May, quite good. We started opening up in May. We'll agree that it was my opinion then, we were opening too quickly too soon.
And now, in June, just like in the last 10 days, our numbers have been exponentially increasing. Today, I reported an additional 924 positive cases. Yesterday, it was around 900. Monday, it was 1,700.
In the last seven days, we have added about 7,000 new cases. And the numbers continue to rise. CUOMO: And you're going to have the lagging indicators of the "God forbids."
TURNER: Yes.
CUOMO: You're going to have the hospitalizations, right? First, it's symptoms. Then, it's testing, and you get positive cases.
TURNER: Yes.
CUOMO: And/or you start to see them showing up at the hospitals, and getting tested positive, and then you have the "God forbids," the people who get stuck on the ventilators.
TURNER: I know.
CUOMO: And worse. Now, Mr. Mayor, first things first here--
TURNER: Sure.
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CUOMO: --is the human angle. You, your family, your team, how is everybody doing?
TURNER: Thanks. Thanks for asking, Chris. My family is good. Look, I watch you, and your story, and what you went through. Saw the Mayor, last night, from Miami, as well, good friend, and what he has gone through.
My family is - my family is good. But look, I have 2.3 million people in the City of Houston that I consider my family.
CUOMO: They're your family, too. Absolutely.
TURNER: And I want to make sure--
CUOMO: And I've heard that--
TURNER: --I want to make sure they're good.
CUOMO: I've heard that. You know, look, I've been in Houston so much, reporting, over the years. I have enjoyed the culture in Dallas and Houston. Not the same. But I've been all over the State--
TURNER: Right.
CUOMO: --from East to West, North to South.
TURNER: You did.
CUOMO: My fire here is not about politics. It's the God forbid of people--
TURNER: That's right.
CUOMO: --having to go through what I went through, or worse, when it wasn't necessary. I see nobody--
TURNER: I agree.
CUOMO: --I don't want anybody to gain or lose because of Coronavirus. But do you have any doubt, in your mind, that if masks had been in place, and you had done the social distancing, and gone slower that you'd be in a better place today?
TURNER: No, I have no doubt. What we did in shutting down early, putting on the masks, social distancing, proper hygiene, all of those things working in combination were working. At the end of April--
CUOMO: Will the numbers scare people enough to do the right thing, Mr. Mayor?
TURNER: Well, I'm hoping that they - that they are. We certainly are letting people know that we're moving quickly in the wrong direction.
Look, this is Houston. When we work together, we are able to do great things. And we manage. We flattened this virus towards the end of April. The numbers were going down. So, it was working.
Now the numbers are moving in the right direction, we open up quickly, too soon. We started re-socializing, coming back together, fueling this virus, and this virus is reminding us every day that it never left us, that it loves closeness, and the numbers are starting to tick up.
And now we need to get on top of it. And we'll know in two weeks to three weeks, if people put back on their masks, keep the mask on, engage in social distancing, whether or not that will help to stop of the exponential increase of this virus.
CUOMO: In Houston, are masks a maybe, or a must, in terms of the law?
TURNER: Well, just last week, the Governor gave the local authorities back some power to require to - require commercial and businesses to require their employees and visitors to put on masks.
We don't have the authority to require every individual, in groups, to put on their masks, only those individuals, those businesses, or their employees and their visitors. So that order - those local orders have gone into effect now.
And we are encouraging people, sending out the inspectors, monitoring, and making sure that the businesses are complying with that order.
It doesn't go nearly as far as I would like it to go. But hopefully, we are now engaged in a very active PR campaign, encouraging all people in the City of Houston, when they are engaged with others, to put on their masks.
And I am hoping, and praying, and asking the people of City of Houston to do just that. We know that putting on masks works. We know that. And I'm hoping Houstonians will do it.
CUOMO: More importantly, you know what happens when you don't use them now.
TURNER: We do know that.
CUOMO: Mayor Turner, God bless you, and your family, and your extended family, all 2.3 million of them as well.
I know Abbott tied your hands. I know he still has one hand tied because you can only deal with businesses. But hopefully, people don't need to be punished. They just know that it's the right thing now, and that it was hype that they didn't need the mask.
And hopefully, people in Texas--
TURNER: Well yes.
CUOMO: --have always been smart, and they'll come together, like they have, many times in the past. God bless you all down there. We'll stay on the story.
TURNER: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right, God bless.
TURNER: Thank you, Chris. Appreciate it. Good night, buddy.
CUOMO: Yes look, and for all of you, I'm not pointing the finger. I wish you well. I wish you safety. I wish you good health. Please, please, wear the masks. It's not about politics. It's about people.
Take care of yourself. Take care of the people in your communities and your families. God forbid you go through what I and my family did, or worse, God forbid. I hope it happens to none of you. But you're asking for it.
Public health experts like Dr. Fauci, they warned us. The virus sets the timeline for reopening. We don't. But we didn't listen. And we do know that distancing works. We do know that masks work. We let our guard down. And it was a mistake. So, what do we do now? We have to do better.
Another Health Authority will help drill into why this is happening and what we know we can do to stop it. It is not too late. We're just taking too long. Next.
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CUOMO: Please, let's all come together and fight fringe-thinking.
Coronavirus doesn't just hit big areas. It is not just a Blue State or a Left/Right problem. Here is the proof. Please look at this map, cases at the county level. Ooh, that is confused! No. Do it by shade.
You see all the red, and what the legend tells you red means? It means areas large and small are seeing a high number of infections, especially in the South and the Southwest. And it looks bad because it is.
The reality, however, is even worse because of the CDC announcement today. To me, it's the headline of the day. Cases could be 10 times the number we know about. Why? Because we are still not testing enough.
Trump says we should slow the testing down. Yes, because he believes the more you know about the reality the worst it will be for him and the recovery he believes he needs. We can't allow that kind of leadership.
You need proof of the argument? Let's bring in an expert, Dr. William Schaffner. He is in one of those bright red areas right now.
Welcome back to PRIME TIME, Doc. I hope that the family is well that your team is well.
DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER, CDC ADVISER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: Everything is well here. And you sound great, Chris. Good.
CUOMO: I'm upset because I do not want to see people have to suffer what I and my family did, or worse, because they buy into misinformation.
The idea that "Masks, you don't really need it, and in truth, this really just hits the big cities and the big, dense areas," I mean, isn't that kind of thinking fueling part of what we're seeing?
SCHAFFNER: Yes, for sure. You know, when the virus first came here, it did go to the big cities.
CUOMO: Sure.
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SCHAFFNER: And we had hotspots, New York, New Orleans, Miami. And then it slowly began to seep out into middle-size cities, Nashville. And now it's getting out to smaller cities, small towns, to very rural areas.
And what I am concerned about, since the virus is now seeded throughout the United States, come the fall, when it kicks up again, it's going to kick up everywhere. And small, rural hospitals will find themselves taking care of COVID patients that they can't transfer to the major medical centers because the intensive care units there are already full.
Chris, I hate to be grim. But I'm afraid the second wave, this fall, could be worse than the first wave that we are still experiencing.
CUOMO: I mean, look, it's just - it's just so sickening because we didn't have to be here. And we cannot count on leadership from the top to get us out of it.
But that's why I'm making an appeal to the State leadership. Not just my brother, I'll have them on from anywhere, any municipal level, to talk about what the right measures are to kind of spread the word.
And that's why I was so happy to have you on tonight, to talk about this new CDC headline, the number could be 10 times more. What does this tell us about what we've learned about testing, and what we need to do, in terms of testing, to get a better handle on this?
SCHAFFNER: Well, clearly, testing needs to expand even further. We need to make sure that everyone who is ill, with appropriate symptoms, gets access to a test.
We need to focus tests where they are needed, nursing homes, prisons, institutions such as businesses, where there are outbreaks, migrant agricultural workers, high-risk populations, to really find out what the extent of the infection is, here in the United States.
It's out there. It's spreading much more widely than even the statistics show.
CUOMO: And everybody keeps saying, on the Federal level, "You know, we're doing more than anybody else." It's not true. It's not true. We need to do better and the cases are telling the story. Look at us compared to the rest of the world.
Dr. Schaffner, thank you for being a steady ship in a storm. Always appreciate it.
SCHAFFNER: Good to be with you.
CUOMO: All right. Now, we can keep our eye on multiple balls, right?
There is another case that we have to focus on here because it is an example of how everything that happens seems so wrong, and yet, it doesn't lead to any real action, when it comes to reforming policing in America.
A case out of Colorado that you probably haven't heard about, it happened back in 2019, an unarmed Black man, who died, after getting into it with the police. We'll talk about why. His name was Elijah McClain. It's getting renewed attention, I argue, for good reason.
But we have to talk to the people who know. How about the local prosecutor who said the proof wasn't there to file any charges? He is here to explain, next.
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CUOMO: Elijah McClain, another name that now must be on the list, 23- year-old, died in police custody, last August, 2019, in the Denver suburb of Aurora. His case had been closed.
After more than 2 million people signed a petition for a new investigation, Colorado's Governor is now re-examining what happened. Here is some of what we know.
McClain was stopped by three officers, White officers, as he walked home from a convenience store. A 911 caller had reported seeing a suspicious person wearing a mask.
And indeed, McClain was wearing a ski mask. See him? He is not holding up the store, by the way. The video makes it clear.
He is standing in line, and he buys his things, pays, leaves. Has a mask on. Why? Why does he have a mask on? Because, supposedly, he had anemia, and would sometimes get cold.
I think there is going to be another suggestion for why he did this, and a lot of other things. A look at the body camera footage shows how the situation escalated with the police.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop. Stop.
ELIJAH MCCLAIN, A 23-YEAR-OLD BLACK MASSAGE THERAPIST, AURORA, COLORADO: Walking away (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop. Stop. I have a right to stop your because you're being suspicious.
MCCLAIN: Well OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around. Turn around.
MCCLAIN: No, actually you're--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around.
MCCLAIN: Stop. Stopped me like old movies (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop. Stop tensing up, dude. Stop tensing up.
MCCLAIN: Let me go bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop tensing up.
MCCLAIN: Hey, let go of me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop tensing up.
MCCLAIN: Let me go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop tensing up.
MCCLAIN: No. Let go of me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop tensing up.
MCCLAIN: No, I am an introvert, sees respect for boundaries.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop tensing up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're trying to.
MCCLAIN: That I'm speaking--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop tensing up. Stop, stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Yes, you know what? That's enough of it. I do not need to bathe you in - you know what's about to happen.
He's not going to listen. There are going to be more officers. They're going to get on him. One of them is going to choke him. You're going to hear an officer say, "Hey, dude, he grabbed your gun," in that kind of tone, not, "He grabbed your gun!" "Hey, dude, he grabbed your gun."
You don't see any grabbing of the gun. Why? Because the body camera - the body cameras have fallen in the grass. I'm not saying that that's suspicious. I'm just saying you don't see it.
Two questions.
Did they have good reason to stop him, based on the legal standard of having a reasonable suspicion he had committed a crime or was about to or had just? Or was it just as clear as the guy may have something wrong with him?
Second question, once they decided to treat him like a potential criminal, and not a potential mental healthcare case, was a chokehold necessary? They called a carotid restraint, whatever. It's a fancy name for choking him, OK? [21:30:00]
And they say, "Oh, you know, it's done to help get control." It's helped to make somebody pass out, and that's exactly what happened here, and that's why Colorado outlawed chokeholds, just a few weeks ago.
Paramedics show up. They sedate him with a drug that's a little controversial. The police report says McClain had a heart attack on the way to the hospital, declared brain dead three days later.
Officers are put on administrative leave. No one is fired. All reinstated after prosecutors said, "It's just not there. Can't really tell it was a homicide. Can't really tell that it was justifiable or not."
How can everything go so wrong, and yet, everything turn-out right for the officers?
10 months later, outcry on social media, prompting an independent investigation, the Governor announced it today. McClain's loved ones remember a gentle and kind soul, who worked as a massage therapist, and loved to play the violin to animals at a shelter.
You heard him on the body cam. He was on his way home. He was listening to music. The officer said "He had superhuman strength." He had weed in his system, and ketamine, the drug they gave him, nothing else.
The person who did the autopsy, or one of the medical professionals for the police, said he was about a 100 kilograms. That's 220 pounds, what I weigh. His actual weight? A 140. He was unarmed.
How can everything seem so wrong, and yet nothing happened? The District Attorney, on the case originally, cleared the officers of wrongdoing. Why?
He's going to tell us right after this.
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CUOMO: The Elijah McClain case is going to get a second look at the State level.
Now the District Attorney, who said he could not bring a good case, wanted to speak out about why. He did so in written form, and now he wants to make the case to you. That is District Attorney Dave Young, joining us now.
Sir, thank you for taking the opportunity. I'm not here to come at you with hot breath. This is all very sad. And we hear that all the time.
But this is one of those situations where I need you to help my audience understand why everything seems like it was handled so wrong, and yet, everything wound up being OK for the officers.
Why was what they did, and how they stopped him, their decision to stop, and how they treated him, and what happened, how was that all justifiable in your - in your explanation?
DAVE YOUNG, ADAMS COUNTY, CO DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, 17TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF COLORADO: Well, good evening, Chris. And I'm more than happy to explain that. But I think, first of all, I need to explain what my role is in the investigation.
CUOMO: Can you hear, District Attorney?
YOUNG: I'm not here to tell--
CUOMO: Better than I can?
YOUNG: You hearing OK?
CUOMO: Dave, I want to make sure it's just me who can't hear you.
Can you hear the District Attorney? All right, you guys can hear him? I'm going to just turn - I'm just going to turn you up. All right, if the audience can hear you, keep going, please Sir.
YOUNG: Oh, sure.
CUOMO: Now we're good.
YOUNG: So, my role--
CUOMO: Thank you.
YOUNG: My role in this investigation was to determine whether or not I can prove a criminal violation, in the State of Colorado, beyond a reasonable doubt, in front of a jury. That's my role in this case.
I'm not here to condone their actions. In fact, I disagree with what they did on the night of August 24th, 2019.
CUOMO: Understood.
YOUNG: So, I was--
CUOMO: So D.A., let's just do it step by step, so people can understand the legal analysis from your perspective. They get a--
YOUNG: Absolutely.
CUOMO: --they get a call, "There is a guy in a mask." They show up. There is a guy in a mask. He is acting in a completely normal way, from what we can see on the video.
I think, by most indications, as soon as you contact this man, you should have known, with any kind of training - forget about this. This is when he was in the store. You can't see what I'm putting on TV. This is him just buying his stuff.
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(AUGUST 24, 2019, AURORA, COLORADO - VIDEO OF ELIJAH MCCLAIN IN CONVENIENCE STORE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The officers didn't have the benefit at this - at this time. But the man they encounter is carrying a bag, with his phone, walking home, he says, listening to music. What makes him suspicious of criminality in your mind?
YOUNG: Well, you are missing a very critical point. We had a citizen call 911, saying there's a man, with a mask on, acting suspicious.
CUOMO: Right.
YOUNG: And that 911 is what triggered the officer to go - officers to go to the scene.
CUOMO: Right.
YOUNG: Without that 911 call, the officers don't have contact with Elijah McClain.
CUOMO: But a 911 call is not a prima facie basis for reasonable suspicion of criminality.
YOUNG: Well the officers do not know that, at that time, Chris.
CUOMO: No. But then they--
YOUNG: The officers know--
CUOMO: --then they contact him.
YOUNG: --they get - well they get dispatched--
CUOMO: Right.
YOUNG: --by a dispatcher, and says, "We just had a reporting partner. He said there's a suspicion - suspicious person walking down the street with a ski mask on."
CUOMO: Yes, which they found.
YOUNG: They got out to - and they go out to investigate that.
CUOMO: Yes. And they find him.
YOUNG: And--
CUOMO: And they walk up to him. And he says, "I'm going home." And they say "No."
YOUNG: Well--
CUOMO: And he says "Why are you stopping me?" And the cop says "Because you're acting suspiciously."
How? How?
YOUNG: Well--
CUOMO: What is reasonable in the assessment of his suspicion?
YOUNG: No, see, you are doing exactly what I cannot do. You have the privilege of knowing everything that was going on with Elijah McClain at the convenience store and everywhere else.
The officers had no idea what Elijah McClain is doing at the time. They see a man in a mask, match - matching a description that someone called 911 about. And they're going up to him to investigate.
CUOMO: You're right.
YOUNG: They have a right to do that.
CUOMO: And they walk up to him. And you don't get to just put your hands on somebody, because somebody at 911 called, and said "There's a masked man asking suspicious." You don't get to stop me on that alone. We both know that. You need more.
YOUNG: No. You - you got to have a reasonable suspicion, which someone calling 911, and saying there is a suspicious person out there, and then they try to contact him.
And, of course, he's got headphones on, and can't hear them. But the officers do not know that. The officers think he is ignoring them, and not complying with their commands.
CUOMO: And then they start--
YOUNG: So they asked--
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CUOMO: And then they start to tussle, and here is the next material fact, they start to tussle, and he starts saying this bizarre stuff, "I'm being censored. I'm being censored. I'm being," look, we both know, being in this business, for as long as we have been that that is bizarre talk, of someone who's obviously deranged.
And yet, they treat him as what we hear all the time. "He had superhuman strength. It took all of us to take him down. He reached for a gun," which the officer says, in the following tone of voice, "He reached for your gun, dude."
And that is enough to put a chokehold on a guy with three officers? How justified?
YOUNG: Well let me tell you what's going on with this case.
First of all, the officers have no idea, they have no knowledge, about Elijah McClain. They don't know anything about him. And they are in a situation where they have to react to everything that's happening right in front of them.
CUOMO: Not your problem, D.A., but part of the problem, by the way.
YOUNG: So, I guess--
CUOMO: Just to step sideways. This is proof that cops shouldn't be called to every kind of stop.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: When you have a mental health case like this, they should stop what they're doing, and call in people who know how to deal with this, if they are not going to be able to train the officers to deal with it.
But that's not your problem. Keep going with your analysis.
YOUNG: Are you saying that officers shouldn't respond to 911 calls and investigate?
CUOMO: No. No. No.
YOUNG: Is that the role--
CUOMO: No. No. Clever device, D.A., but that's not what I said at all. What I'm saying is that when--
YOUNG: Well that's actually what you said.
CUOMO: --when a 911 call comes in, and you come, and you see someone, who is clearly acting in a deranged manner, you stop. Don't treat him like a criminal. Treat him like he may be sick. Don't make up things about him carrying a plastic bag that may have been filled with weapons.
And call in a mental health person, seeing how you don't obviously have the training, because you are about to treat him like he is some kind of savage, and he's going to wind up dead. So, maybe there is a better way to do it.
YOUNG: Although-- CUOMO: That's what I'm saying. But that's not your analysis.
YOUNG: If you want me to explain my decision, I'm more than happy to, all right?
CUOMO: Go ahead. Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: That's why I said it was a step sideways. Not your issue, but an issue.
YOUNG: Well let me - let me tell you, my role, in this whole investigation, is to determine whether or not a criminal charge should be filed.
CUOMO: Yes.
YOUNG: And the criminal charges I'm looking at are homicide. We've got several different theories of homicide here in Colorado. But, in each and every one of those theories of homicide, I must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that those officers caused the death of Elijah McClain.
And you should know, if you don't know already, that the forensic autopsy report cannot determine the cause of death of Mr. McClain.
CUOMO: Right.
YOUNG: So, how in the world can I file homicide charges when I can't prove that critical element, beyond a reasonable doubt, the cause of death?
CUOMO: Who says you can't?
YOUNG: That's OK--
CUOMO: A pathologist report is just one aspect of an investigation. And he didn't rule anything out either. He said it could have been homicide, could have been accidental, could have been natural, he doesn't really know. He looked at the drugs in the system. He saw marijuana and ketamine.
YOUNG: He (OFF-MIKE) based on speculation.
CUOMO: It's not speculation.
YOUNG: I go on facts.
CUOMO: You could have investigated more.
YOUNG: Well I did--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: So, you're saying if a pathologist doesn't give you a home run, you never go forward with a case?
YOUNG: And, by the way, there was no injuries to him whatsoever.
CUOMO: He is dead.
YOUNG: No serious bodily injury.
CUOMO: He's dead.
YOUNG: Well yes, if you want to say the forensic pathologist doesn't know what he is doing, you could say that all you want.
CUOMO: No. That's what you are saying--
YOUNG: But that's the evidence that was--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: --to get away from my question. You're saying there are no injuries. The guy is dead. So, clearly--
YOUNG: Well look--
CUOMO: --things happened to him that were wrong, Mr. D.A.
YOUNG: Yes. He's got a heart that's got a very narrow valve, an aorta valve, and he probably most likely died from excited delirium.
CUOMO: Didn't they teach us--
YOUNG: Or he had a heart attack.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Didn't they teach you something in law school called the eggshell plaintiff that you take somebody as you find them?
YOUNG: No. That's--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: And if you choke some - if you choke somebody, and they have a condition with their carotid artery, and they die that that should be part of the analysis of whether the force was justified?
YOUNG: No. That's not correct.
CUOMO: Why not?
YOUNG: Because I have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the actions of those officers killed Elijah McClain.
CUOMO: What if they--
YOUNG: And I do that based on the evidence following--
CUOMO: --what if you could just show that it contributed to it?
YOUNG: And that's forensic autopsy report, and the forensic pathologist, who indicated to detectives that this young man could have died the next day by mowing his lawn. How do I overcome that beyond a reasonable doubt?
CUOMO: That is a - I do not see that in the report anywhere. But I'm giving you - you are - I'm not giving you anything. You are correct that the pathologist couldn't make a solid determination on why he died. I'm not disputing that at all.
In fact, I'm not disputing any of your analyses. I'm just trying to take people through why this happened. I am not here to roast you. I feel for your position. I just want to help people understand.
But he did not say the guy could have dropped dead mowing his lawn the next day, not in any of the stuff that you offered. He said he found weed in his system, so I don't get where the superhuman strength comes from with a 5'6", 140-pound guy.
He put his estimated weight at a 100 kilograms. He was off by 80 pounds on the guy's weight. So, you know, that's not the best - that's not the best kind of indication of good judgment.
[21:45:00]
But just because he doesn't give you that this is exactly why he died doesn't mean that you couldn't investigate for a contributory role in the man's death. You have criminally negligent homicide in Colorado.
YOUNG: You still have to prove that they caused his death by their negligence acts. The--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: But you don't think the choke had anything to do with why he died?
YOUNG: There were no injuries to his neck. The man was alive after that happened. Well a choke--
CUOMO: But then why do you think he died?
YOUNG: Well, that's the question that we don't know. And, in my business, I can't take a case to court that we don't know the answers to those questions. It's as simple as that.
CUOMO: Well but don't you put those questions to the jury, and you believe that when you put together their actions, with a very questionable reasonable basis for suspicion of criminality, other than the mask, and a 911 call, which was not proven to be clear by what they found when they contacted him.
The guy was just walking down the street, not very suspicious behavior to me, except for the fact that he's got a mask on. I haven't even mentioned his color because I don't need to. The facts alone suggest judgment that was in question.
They then choke a guy, even though they have three officers on him, and the guy is 5'6", 140 pounds, and not Bruce Lee. And then he winds up dead.
YOUNG: Well if - if you just--
CUOMO: And you don't think they had anything to do with it?
YOUNG: --if you look at the officers' statements, they all indicated that he lifted them all up off the ground. Now, whether or not that happened, I don't know. But that's the evidence that's in front of me. That's the evidence that a jury would see. And that's what I base my decision on.
CUOMO: No. They - they would hear that testimony--
YOUNG: You know--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: --cross-examined by someone like you, who's got a great reputation, Mr. Young, for being a great cross-examiner.
YOUNG: Well, I've been doing this for 30 years and--
CUOMO: I know.
YOUNG: --and I think I know a little bit more about this business than most people who have opinions on this case.
I cannot take a case to the jury, where I don't know what the cause of death is, on a homicide case. I don't even have serious bodily injury. So, I don't - I can't even take a felony assault charge, to a jury, based on the lack of injuries.
So, what I'm left with is a potential third-degree assault, which is the Class 1 misdemeanor. And that's where I want to get into the reasonable suspicious activities that led these officers to do what they did.
And you can't look at it as an investigation as a whole. You got to put yourself in those officers' shoes at the time. That's what the case law says. That's what the statutory law says.
CUOMO: So, you think what they did.
YOUNG: And if it--
CUOMO: You don't like how they did it. But that speaks to the job--
YOUNG: Absolutely right.
CUOMO: --and the standards of the job, not what you can call a crime.
YOUNG: Absolutely right. I don't approve what they did. I wish they would have sat in their car, and watched him walk home. We wouldn't be having this discussion, and Elijah McClain may be still alive right now.
CUOMO: But that--
YOUNG: But that's--
CUOMO: He, in all likelihood, would be alive. But - so, you don't see that decision to not stay in the car, and approach it a different way, as failing to meet the standard for the initial stop, which is reasonable suspicion of a crime?
YOUNG: No, I do not, because they are responding to a 911 call, and they're going to investigate that situation.
And you can see from the body camera footage, the officers just trying to have a conversation with him. They're saying "Calm down, dude. We just want to talk. We just want to talk."
And, as things escalate, in the officers' minds, I got to determine whether or not it's reasonable that they think there might be a reason to pat him down, because they don't know if he has a weapon on. They don't know anything about him.
CUOMO: To me, it just speaks to them being so bad at their job.
YOUNG: So that's the--
CUOMO: Not knowing how to de-escalate, not understand that they're dealing with a mentally-ill person. But again, that's not your problem, Mr. D.A.
And I want you to know something. These aren't easy conversations to have. I'm not here to take you down. It's not me versus you. It's - the key is the "We." We got to have these conversations.
People have to understand the process and why the decisions were made as they were. Otherwise, we're not going to get anywhere. And I appreciate you coming on to make your case.
YOUNG: You bet.
CUOMO: All right. I appreciate it. I'm not here to make it easy. But I'm here to be fair. We'll be right back.
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[21:50:00]
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CUOMO: OK. The President is campaigning in Wisconsin. One big reason, are polls like this, which show him behind double-digits. Hmm! Tough to believe! Why? Well, Trump won in a squeaker in Wisconsin against Clinton.
But we have the Mayor of Green Bay here.
And the reason I wanted him was because he put out an open letter, to Trump, saying "Don't be talking that no mask madness when you come to campaign here" because even though cases had peaked about a month ago, they're starting to go up once again.
The Mayor, as you see, is joining us now.
Eric Genrich, it's good to have you on PRIME TIME.
MAYOR ERIC GENRICH, (D) GREEN BAY, WISCONSIN: Thanks so much for having me, Chris.
CUOMO: First, convince me to believe in the poll. He won by almost a 11 percent - percentage points in your County, where Green Bay is, Brown County. Do you feel that your State has changed its political disposition since four years ago - three years ago?
GENRICH: Yes, I do. I mean, obviously, Wisconsin is well-known as a Purple State.
But, you know, our last Presidential election was the first time that we'd gone Republican since 1984. So, I would expect a return to form this fall, and I do expect a Democratic victory in November.
CUOMO: Now, look, the pandemic is going to play large, for people, in terms of how they feel, on the State and Federal level, this was handled. The return or the resurgence of cases seems to be linked to a relaxing of isolation and mask-wearing.
What is your concern about what the President is going to say, and what do you want people to know?
GENRICH: Well, I do think it's incredibly unfortunate that the President has chosen to politicize the act of wearing a mask. It's an incredibly empathetic step to take.
[21:55:00]
You know, the idea that wearing a mask is somehow a political statement is absurd when, of course, you have the CDC and public health experts, all the way from, the national level, down to the local level, encouraging people to wear masks.
If the President had taken the same step, had all along been encouraging people to take this step, to wear masks, to keep people safe, I think, you know, the outcome would have been much more positive.
We would have saved tens of thousands of lives, and we wouldn't see the uptick in cases that we've seen, unfortunately, in Wisconsin, in recent days, and - and in so many other States around the country.
CUOMO: The irony is that by ignoring it, he's extended it, and that's why you have States like yours went from 3.5 percent unemployment to 12 percent. That will be part of the election as well.
Mayor Eric Genrich, thank you very much for being with us tonight. We're going to stay on your situation. You have an open invitation to give us the latest, and what you need people to know at home, and abroad, whenever you wanted.
We'll be right back.
GENRICH: Thanks so much for having me on, take care.
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CUOMO: 10 o'clock, straight up, that means it's time for CNN TONIGHT with D. Lemon.
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