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House Delivers Trump Impeachment Article To Senate; McConnell Says He'll Let Senate Power-Sharing Agreement To Advance; Dominion Sues Giuliani For $1.3 Billion Over Election Lies. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired January 25, 2021 - 21:00   ET



ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: That's it for us. The news continues. Let's hand it over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris?


I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.

A reminder of the history of this moment, just think about it. We have never lived a moment like this, in America, before, ever. Tonight, a third article of impeachment served to the Senate against Donald Trump.

This ceremony, the handing over, of the impeachment, just a year from the last article walkover by House Managers, all of this done in context.

We must remember what brought us to this point. We must remember what happened on January 6th. It must live in infamy, and it makes this walk all the more solemn, and sorrowful.

And also in infamy, must love the only president, who undoubtedly helped bring us to this point, the only to ever have a double disgrace of two impeachments attached to his name forever.

You know? Watching it, the walk, it felt very different tonight. There's a sense of trauma. This is a sacred place they're in. And yet, it is now a crime scene. These are lawmakers. They're prosecutors. But they're also witnesses and victims.

"Incitement of insurrection," that is the accusation against the former president by those, who feared for their lives. There is nothing remote about any of this. There is no proxy here. The people who are dealing with what must happen because of this are the ones who were directly targeted by what happened.

The case, the case, for impeachment, by Lead Manager, Representative Jamie Raskin.


REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Donald John Trump engaged in high crimes and misdemeanors by inciting violence against the government of the United States.

President Trump's conduct, on January 6, 2021, followed his prior efforts to subvert and obstruct the certification of the results of the 2020 presidential election.

Donald John Trump thus warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States.


C. CUOMO: Tonight, CNN got exclusive reaction from President Biden, his most extensive comments, since taking office, on the Trump impeachment trial.

He told our Chief White House Correspondent that he thinks this trial has to happen. He acknowledged it could set back his own legislative agenda, and his own cabinet nominees, but argues there would be a worse effect if the trial didn't happen.

So, where are we in the process? They handed it over. Now, tomorrow, the jury will get sworn in. The trial will begin February 9th.

As wrong as January 6th, and the events leading up to it all were, you have to ask "How does the right thing to do here still elude so many?" The case is clear. The constitutional duty is clear as well. The murky part is the constitution of the GOP. Too many Re-Trump-licans in the ranks!

Now, 10 House Republicans did vote to impeach.

But too many still see submission to their old boss as a strong move. The Cruzes, the Rubios, they are where this trial will occur. They will be the jurors. And they seem convinced that strong and wrong is still the best move with the base.


SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): First of all, I think the trial is stupid. And I think it's counterproductive. We already have a flaming fire in this country, and it's like taking a bunch of gasoline, and pouring it on top of the fire.


C. CUOMO: Just think about the logic. First of all, what's the logic of Rubio all of a sudden going soft on terrorism?

But beside that, you don't want to hold the arsonist accountable because it will only spark more fires? That is the thinking that he will be remembered for, and he will be remembered, right along with this profile in perfidy from the top House Republican.


REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): The President bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack.

I don't believe he provoked, if you listen to what he said at the rally.

I also think everybody across this country has some responsibility.



C. CUOMO: He won't name Trump, but he will put it on all of us! I do not know why it is so hard to cut the umbilical cord from a president, who is no longer in power, and without the power to even blast out a mean tweet anymore.

Rubio with the "Lie," McCarthy with the "Deny" and that leaves "Defy." Lie, deny, defy, that is the Trump trilogy of tricks.

And the "Defy," that play goes to the court jester, Representative Matt Gaetz, who is going after the third ranking Republican in the House now, because Liz Cheney dared vote to impeach, and state the obvious, that there has never been a greater betrayal by a president to his office and oath to the Constitution.

The Florida Congressman is actually planning a trip to Cheney's state of Wyoming, this week, in his push to oust her from leadership. Her camp's response? "Gaetz can leave his beauty bag at home. In Wyoming, the men don't wear makeup."

Their division is bad for them but worse for us. It is a danger in a time that demands a sense of common cause.

Again, I have to impress upon each and every one of you, we are living in historic times. The historicity revealed nowhere more solemnly than the moment we lived together tonight, and how you, and I, and the lawmakers, how we all respond to it, it will all be remembered.

Joining us now, a House Impeachment Manager, seen on that walk, tonight, Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania.

Thank you for joining us.

REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): Good evening, Chris. Thank you for having me.

C. CUOMO: How does that hit you? Prosecutor? Victim? Witness? These people were coming for you. How does that register with your head and your heart?

DEAN: Thank you for asking me.

I was there on January the 6th. I was up in the gallery, at the time of the attack, at the time of the insurrection, at the time of the banging on the doors, and the piercing of the doors. It was a terrifying time. But how it hits me, Chris, I have to be honest with you, is with

determination, with sorrow and somber sadness that we had to walk that article, over to the Senate, but with a determination that what we're doing is exactly what we were called to do.

I was thinking tonight, as you just talked about this, what we do here matters. I want to tell you a really quick story. It means a lot to me.

In July of 2019, I was a new Member of Congress. I plopped myself down on the floor of the House, in the days you could sit on the floor of the House, and I was seated next to Elijah Cummings.

We had the best conversation. And you know what he said to me? He said, "Madeleine Dean," we talked about everything. His favorite movie, by the way, "Lion King," in case, you didn't know it.

He talked about his father, watching him being sworn in, in the gallery. And I said "I wish my parents could be here." And he said, "They're here. Trust me, they're here. Even if they've passed, they're here."

You know what he said to me at the end of our conversation? And I did not understand it then. He said to me, "Madeleine Dean, 300 years from now, your ancestors will remember you were here."

It's come to me what he meant. He didn't mean me. He didn't mean my name. He meant they will remember what we did here. He could see the future. He could see the history, the importance that we take this solemn duty seriously. And that's the way I feel tonight.

C. CUOMO: More than once he called to encourage the job of accountability and saying that "This is the worst I've ever seen."

DEAN: Yes.

C. CUOMO: What is the hardest part for you, emotionally, in processing where we are right now?

DEAN: I'm sad for our country, but I don't know what has happened. I feel just a steely determination to do my duty. I feel so honored to join Jamie Raskin and this team of nine, to have been called by Speaker Pelosi to this moment in history.

So, my greatest emotion, right now, and maybe it will be different later, is a determination to do my best, to make sure that my constituents and my family and country is proud, that we prosecute a case against a president so desperate to hang on to power that he assembled a mob, incited a mob, lit the match.

And, as a result, five people are dead, a 130-plus police officers are wounded. And it was a dual attack, both on our Constitution and our constitutional obligation, but also on a Joint Session of Congress.

[21:10:00] The world witnessed. As you said, I'm a witness. I'm a victim. I don't feel a victim. I'm - it was terrifying, don't get me wrong. But I was a witness. The Senate were witnesses. We were hunted. They wanted to hang the Vice President of the United States. They wanted to assassinate the Speaker of the House.

What I feel is a determination and an optimism for our Constitution. The Founders gave us the tools. We just have to use them.

C. CUOMO: What did it mean to you, after all that happened, to see colleagues stand up, and decide to stand up for a lie, even after they had seen the wages, of that lie, and to know that now, there's almost no chance that you will get 17 votes, from the other Party, to confirm what you know to be true to every bone in your body?

DEAN: Chris, I won't agree with you. I believe we will put forward a very strong case that a course is already in the public view of what took place here. A President violated his oath, in incredible ways, on January 6th. We will put that case forward.

I was thinking of last week, Chris, and I know you paid close attention to the swearing-in of Joe Biden, just five days ago. It's an amazing American week, an amazing American moment. And, of course, four years before, Donald Trump took that same oath.

We must hold anyone, me, a president, everyone, accountable to that oath. What did his oath say? His oath said that he would "Preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. So help me God." That meant from day one until day last.

If we fail to make sure that we get this jury of senators, to vote to convict, what does that say about them, and their belief in this oath?

I have a confidence. I will not give up. I'm not doing the math of 17. We'll put forward the strongest case. I hope we get every single vote.

C. CUOMO: Do you put any credence in the idea that a Republican senator could say, "Look, you know? The case is compelling, but it doesn't matter. We can't have this trial. He's already out of office."

DEAN: You know, you're a smarter lawyer, you know that that's actually constitutionally not so.

The Framers of the Constitution were very aware of demagogues and mobs. And so, what they put in the Constitution, for impeachment, is not only removal from office. They put in disqualification.

But very importantly, even though this President is no longer here, or in past cases, a person tried to resign, to beat impeachment, it just doesn't work that way. He can be further disqualified. So, it's incredibly and very truly constitutional that we will move forward with this article of impeachment.

C. CUOMO: You guys going to call witnesses? And if so, might McCarthy be one of those witnesses, as he was on the phone with the President, and might have some kind of present sense impression of where his head was at, during those events?

DEAN: Well thank you for asking. But Chris, you might imagine, I will not be previewing the trial.

C. CUOMO: I know.

DEAN: And--

C. CUOMO: I just said the same thing to my E.P. But then I decided to ask anyway because we're all the same, in the media, and we want to know. Even if we know we're not going to get an answer, we ask anyway.

I ask you a question now that I know you'll answer. You pronounced your name "Madeleine." Is that how Elijah said it? Or is that how you say it?

DEAN: That's funny!

Chris, I have five - I'm from a big Irish Catholic family. I have five older brothers. I don't think all of them pronounced it correctly. But I'm named from my--

C. CUOMO: What is it?

DEAN: I'm named from my grandmother. My name is Madeleine. And I try to help people. It rhymes with Dean. Madeleine Dean. But I'll answer to "Madeleine," I'll answer to "Mad," anything.

C. CUOMO: You will answer to "Congresswoman" on my watch, because I have great respect for the office, and for what you're about to do, and how you're doing it. I also have a sister named "Madeline," so I get a pass.

DEAN: Oh! So I--

C. CUOMO: Although if I said her name wrong, she'd probably beat me down, before I get it out of my mouth.

DEAN: Right.

C. CUOMO: Congresswoman, good luck to you, going forward. Let, a little bit of levity, bridge us, to a very, very sober and somber time. We'll be watching.

DEAN: Thanks for having me, and thanks for asking. Take care.

C. CUOMO: Good luck. Thank you.

All right, so what is the case? The evidence is clear. Is it compelling? Well it depends if you want to be convinced.

Now, how about the politics on a couple of different levels, OK? What is going on with the mindset of how to view this case within the Republican Party, and what is the state of play in the Senate?

Is Mitch McConnell once again outmaneuvering Chuck Schumer and the Democrats? And if so, might there need to be a change of leadership, in the Democrats, now that it is their chance to lead?


Talk Republicans, talk Democrats, talk progress, next.








C. CUOMO: We got here because of toxic politics. We got here because of Re-Trump-licans. And now, they may keep us stuck here.

And now, the legacy of their leader and the man that they are defending to the end may keep us from making any progress. They don't want to speak up or stand up to not so much Trump, but to the people who may stand up for Trump that they need to vote for them. That's the reality.

So, what happens in that Party and what's happening in the Democratic Party, specifically in the Senate? Let's hear from two people, who still hold the foundational Republican principles, but more importantly, American values, true to heart, Michael Smerconish and the one and only Governor John Kasich.

It's good to have you both.

I start with you about your Party, Gov.


C. CUOMO: The division is real. We don't need to amp that up. What do you think is the most--


C. CUOMO: --likely resolution?

KASICH: Well, as of right now, I don't think the votes are there for conviction.

But, Chris, you talk about the Republican Party. It has an albatross around its neck. And the albatross' name is Donald Trump. And it is dominating the Party. There is nothing else you can say other than that.


Now, will there be some leaders, who will emerge, who will advance new ideas, 21st Century ideas, ideas of the future, entrepreneurship? I hope so.

And one thing we got to watch is if Democrats decide to go the clunky, big government route, it gives - going to give Republicans an opportunity to redefine themselves. But right now, they're not into redefinition.

Right now, they've got that albatross around their necks, and they can't seem to shake it. And it's just hard for me to understand the inability for them to realize that their personal futures and reputations are at stake on the basis of the kind of decisions they make around.

They're but, you know, they've gone along for four years. And I maintain, Chris, had they stood up early, I think you would have had a different Trump, or at least a different situation than what we have today.

C. CUOMO: Absolutely. Because that was a complete misread. And we've seen it every time he pushes something to the precipice, McGahn says, "I'll quit if you do this," reportedly, the guys at the top of the DoJ say, "We'll resign if you do this," and he stops, because when there is group pressure on him, he rethinks it.


C. CUOMO: Michael?


C. CUOMO: Can I ask you about the Democrats or do you want to weigh in on this first?

SMERCONISH: I want the Republicans first.


SMERCONISH: If guys, like Governor Kasich, were still calling the shots for the GOP, I wouldn't have jumped from the Party, 10 years ago.

But the reality is and look at the most recent Gallup data from December, ask Americans how they identify, 41 percent say "I'm an I." 31 percent "I'm a D," 25 percent say "I'm an R."

The exodus from the Republicans to the Independents has been largely to the advantage of a Donald Trump, because those left behind are more like him than they are about our friend Governor Kasich. And that's the reality. They control the primary process.

And Chris, I remind you, that while perhaps they can't win a national election, for the presidency, on a local level, the GOP is alive and well.

C. CUOMO: Gov., when you were in the House--

KASICH: Let me say something about that, Chris.

C. CUOMO: Go ahead.

KASICH: Because I like Michael's point there. See, Michael--

C. CUOMO: Of course, you do. He complimented you.

KASICH: I think that the Republicans--

C. CUOMO: Of course, you like his point, Gov.

KASICH: Well no, no, no.

C. CUOMO: Go ahead.

KASICH: No, no, I'm not talking - I'm not talking about the compliment.

I'm talking about the fact that the Party has done well because they've been against stuff. They said "Oh, well the Democrats want to defund police. Oh, the Democrats are socialists. Oh, the Democrats are radicals." OK? That's the stuff they said.

But you can't continue to win elections if you don't have ideas. They had no ideas on health care. Their ideas on trade were bogus. They didn't care about the debt.

C. CUOMO: Fear is a powerful idea though, Gov.

KASICH: I mean I think that the Republican Party--

C. CUOMO: Fear. Fear is an idea.

KASICH: Well - oh yes, but it doesn't carry you.

I'm going to - I'm just going to suggest to you that if you don't have - ideas are energy. And I said, the other day, progressives, I don't agree with a lot of what they think, but they have ideas.

If you have no ideas, and all you are is again, you have no ideas, and you will wilt. In the short run, it's worked for them. In the long run, the Party will die, if they do not take the albatross, around their neck, get rid of it, and develop new exciting ideas for this century.

C. CUOMO: All right, here.

KASICH: It just won't happen.

C. CUOMO: Hold on, I got - I got news for you guys. Let me just get it.

There is a power-sharing agreement between the two parties, OK?

McConnell says, first of all, that's the key part to my next question, by the way. McConnell put out a statement saying they have a power- sharing agreement, which to me kind of is the headline. I really believe he's running the game again and that Schumer is getting caught flat-footed. But we'll talk about that in a second.

He said in a statement "Today, two Democratic Senators publicly confirmed they will not vote to end the legislative filibuster. They agree with President Biden and my view that no Senate majority should destroy the right of future minorities of both parties to help shape legislation."

Didn't hurt him with those Supreme Court picks, did it?

McConnell added "The legislative filibuster was a key part of the foundation beneath the Senate's last 50-50 power-sharing agreement in 2001. With these assurances, I look forward to moving ahead with a power-sharing agreement modeled on that precedent."


SMERCONISH: Gut reaction is that Mitch McConnell is still very much in a powerful position. It's not a 51/49. It's a 50/50.

And as you've been pointing out, for the last several nights, it means that he's got a seat at the table, and then some, has to be dealt with. And frankly, it seems like, thus far, he's been able to outmaneuver Chuck Schumer.

And the person, who, I think, is suffering in all this is the brand- new president, because instead of being able to at least have a clean shot, at launching his legislative initiatives, now, not only does he have to deal with the Senate, in a state of flux, but he's got an impeachment trial that's two days - two weeks away that's going to take all the oxygen out of the room.

C. CUOMO: So, the headline is the "Mitch McConnell says," haven't heard from Schumer, but Mitch McConnell says they have a power-sharing deal.


And now, something that would only happen on this show, Governor Kasich, is about to have to defend the Democrats. How is Schumer--

KASICH: Chris? No, no, no.

C. CUOMO: --not getting his clock cleaned?

KASICH: Chris?

C. CUOMO: Hold on a second. Here's the question. And then you can brush it to the side.

KASICH: No, wait a minute, wait a minute. C. CUOMO: You can brush it aside after I ask it.

KASICH: All right.

C. CUOMO: That's what Michael does.


C. CUOMO: Here's the question. How did Schumer get into a position, where McConnell gets to dictate the state of play of a deal? And why should he have any deal with McConnell, in this kind of environment?

KASICH: I'm going to give you - I'm going to give you the answer. Because you have two Democrats, at least, that won't vote to blow up the filibuster. And blowing up the filibuster would have been a disaster for this country.

And let me tell you why. Now it forces the parties to work together. If one party can just smash through the other party - the beauty the Founders had was that the House would act in a more precipitous way, and the Senate would be more measured.

It was like the House was like a hot cup of coffee, and the Senate was supposed to be that that you rested the coffee on so it could cool off--

C. CUOMO: The Founders didn't put the filibuster in.

KASICH: --at the moment, Chris.

C. CUOMO: The Founders didn't put it in.

KASICH: I'm just suggesting - no, but I'm going to suggest to you that the filibuster has been - has been looked upon by people, on both sides of the party, as something that forces the parties to work together, and not let the Majority run rampant over the Minority.

That is why they were not going to blow this thing up because there were two senators, including Joe Manchin, who's a guy that got - has got a lot of guts, out of West Virginia, probably going to end up being one of the most powerful men in the United States Senate, said "No way."

C. CUOMO: Yes.

KASICH: "That is not the way to make America go forward."

C. CUOMO: I'll take the argument.

But Michael, you get the last word. I see the filibuster as a ball of wax in the colon of Congress. But what do you think about what this means, going forward? Do you think they'll work together, or did they just guarantee that McConnell can stop things?

SMERCONISH: I hope they work together. I'm not optimistic. If you'll permit me, a Senate observation, it's this. The optics, of Patrick Leahy presiding over, the Senate impeachment

trial, good for Trump, and I'll tell you why, because it reinforces the idea that the Constitution didn't envision this.

If the Constitution envisioned it, presumably it would be the Chief Justice. If the Chief Justice gets to sit it out, I think it strengthens that argument that says "You know what? The Constitution really wasn't speaking to a former president."

C. CUOMO: Smart point!

Michael Smerconish, Governor Kasich, thank you both. Appreciate you.

KASICH: Always good.

SMERCONISH: Thank you.

KASICH: Thanks, Chris.

SMERCONISH: Thank you.

C. CUOMO: All right. An impeachment trial, during a pandemic, let's use the word of the moment, it sucks.

Pandemic should be everything. Why? Because we are nowhere on the part that matters most. Yes, we're ramping up how many vaccines get into arms, but we're nowhere clear to the rate that we need it to be.

And, by the way, the new administration doesn't even know how much ammunition they have, literally. Today, President Biden upped the vaccination goals.

But let us just have a straight, clear-eyed sense of the state of play. I will give it to you, next.









C. CUOMO: All right, let's talk about vaccines and the reality of where we're headed, as a country.

After President Biden got some pushback for lowballing vaccine projections, he went from a 100 million shots, in a 100 days, to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think we may be able to get that to 150,000 - 1.5 million a day, rather than 1 million a day.


C. CUOMO: Optimistic? Yes. But is he certain? No. And why? It's not his fault. It's the flaw of his inheritance. I'll say when things are this administration's fault. This isn't because he just inherited a gap of information. The last administration didn't know how many shots we have.


ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: You know? I would say one of the biggest problems right now is I can't tell you how much vaccine we have.

And if I can't tell it to you, then I can't tell it to the governors, and I can't tell it to the state health officials. If they don't know how much vaccine they're getting, not just this week, but next week, and the week after, they can't plan.


C. CUOMO: Do you remember how many times I had - hold that - how many times I had people in leadership capacity say to you "We don't know. They can't tell us," do you remember?

And I kept saying to you, it's not because I'm smart, but because I was talking to them, before I had them on television, the administration didn't know. They didn't have anybody figuring it out because Trump didn't want to own it.

The latest from the White House is they hope to have it all sorted out, quote, "In the weeks ahead." Just look at the numbers that we do know, OK? Those of us who are dying every day, people, families, they don't have weeks to wait.

It's telling that while some of us have been saying "This is a mess from the day the first shot went into an arm," the Re-Trump-licans now want to pretend problems are new.


GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): We were told, weeks ago, that we would start to see increases now, and we haven't seen it.


C. CUOMO: Shame on him! Shame on Governor DeSantis!

You must remember how we got here, and don't let Re-Trump-licans change the past to benefit their present. You didn't hear him talking about issues, at the federal level, when

Florida seniors were forced to camp out overnight for a vaccine, right? Did you hear him righteous then? Did you hear him righteous when his state's vaccination program was being called a "Lawless Free- for-All?"

Now he wants to play. Now it's got to be toxic, right? He has no right. He is practicing the same BS as his boss.

Florida just stopped reporting how many second doses they have on hand, just like what happened with cases, just like with what happened with tests, just like with what happened in schools.

He did the same things in Florida he saw Trump doing on the federal level. That kind of political shell game has to be what all of you stand up to, Florida, but all around the country, and say "No more. That guy's gone! Take the game with him."

When we are down to scrambling to find supplies, for more efficient syringes, the good reason is if you have better syringes, you can boost the Pfizer supply by about maybe 20 percent. Every little bit helps, especially with Merck, the big company, abandoning their bid to develop another vaccine.


Look, the reality is we are in a race for our lives. This is about time. Time is of the essence, vaccine versus variants. We know these new mutant versions of the virus are here, so we have to speed up the shots.

As nice as it is to see cases dropping, in 48 states, and they are, the CDC is already warning we could see rapid growth of different versions coming from the U.K.

Transparency, responsibility, accountability, we had none. Now we do. And to get better, we must call out the DeSantis deceptions, and insist on facts and fixes, OK?

Now, speaking of deception, I'll tell you what may rival the Senate trial upcoming, of the President. It's one of the biggest lawsuits I've ever heard of, in terms of its political implications.

Rudy Giuliani, literally had BS dripping down his face, post-election, just slapped with a huge lawsuit, Dominion Voting Systems coming after him for defamation. We have the CEO tonight.

Why they're doing this? What they want it to mean for them and against them? Next.









C. CUOMO: Rudy Giuliani likely won't be the last person sued by Dominion Voting Systems. But the former president's lawyer is looking at a $1.3 billion lawsuit. Why? Saying this:



These crooked Dominion machines.

They cheated with the machines. Then a Venezuelan company counted our votes.


C. CUOMO: The CEO of Dominion Voting Systems, John Poulos, joins us now, in an exclusive interview.

Welcome to PRIME TIME. Thank you for taking the opportunity.

JOHN POULOS, CEO, DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS: Thanks, Chris. Nice to be here.

C. CUOMO: Why sue?

POULOS: We have no choice. Disinformation in elections is a huge problem.

And we've - what we are seeing right now, I don't think we've ever seen before, and it's affecting certainly our good name, and it's - and it's raising serious doubts in electors' minds across the country. And, frankly, it's the only avenue that we have to rectify the situation.

C. CUOMO: The $1.3 billion, you say it's ruining your good name. Have you lost any contracts?

POULOS: The $1.3 billion, there's certainly a lot of questions on that.

So, there is no money, Chris, that can even begin to make up for the damage in reputation that our company, and the customers, the election officials that have used our technology to count ballots.

And the actual calculation of the $1.3 billion is a legal calculation, and we will play that out in court. But if I could trade our reputation back, from November 1st, and go back, before these false accusations were lobbed against us, and our employees, I would do that in a heartbeat.

C. CUOMO: So, the risks are you give a platform to this again, and discovery.

The people on the other side of the ball say, "Boy, I can't wait to get that Poulos and the other people under oath, and bring up all the shady things they did for Biden, and with their machines."

You have no fear of any type of exposure?

POULOS: Well let me tell you something, Chris. Our space is so highly regulated, all of our source code, all of our pieces of technology are submitted to federal and state authorities for independent testing. They have all our equipment.

We don't actually run elections. We supply technology for election officials, to help voters vote, and to help count paper ballots.

And when there is any, kind of, indecision, or concern, regarding the scrutiny of the election, election officials hand-count all of the paper ballots. They either do it in audits, or they do a full recount, as was the case in the state of Georgia.

C. CUOMO: Do you believe that your machines made mistakes?

POULOS: No, absolutely not.

And if you look at the case of Georgia, Chris, 5 million ballots were counted three times, one of which was done by hand, something our detractors have actually claimed never happened.

C. CUOMO: The - and, you know, because you saw Rudy's response but you knew what it was going to be. "I get to investigate the history, the finances, the practices." Are you doing him a favor?

POULOS: If - I don't care. This is something that needs to be done. So, our history is an open book. It's something that we have testified to various authorities on, including Congress and we welcome it.

C. CUOMO: Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell named in the suit. Why just them?

POULOS: It's - we are looking at every bad faith actor that has deliberately created and propagated a falsehood about Dominion and the processes that we were involved in. So, our legal team is looking at frankly everyone. And we're not ruling anybody out. This is just the second suit that we have filed.

C. CUOMO: If you lose - not if you lose. If you win, would the ultimate reward be to have Rudy Giuliani or anybody who's named in the suit say "We were wrong. There is nothing that we could show to prove what we alleged against Dominion and, therefore, against the election?" Is that the ultimate goal? POULOS: Well, we already have that. The evidence that he has touted--

C. CUOMO: Not from them.

POULOS: The evidence - he hasn't released any evidence to the claims that he is saying. And frankly, if you look at the claims that he is willing to make, outside the courtroom, they're different than the claims he's willing to make inside the courtroom.


But no, Chris, the ultimate goal here is for however many millions of Americans are looking at the past election, and they doesn't believe the result, the ultimate goal here is for them to understand how the process actually works, and the fact that there is one paper ballot, for every vote cast, in all of the territories and states that we've serviced, through election officials, and that the count actually was correct. That's the ultimate goal.

C. CUOMO: I'm with you. That's why I'm saying you're probably never going to be able to extract that kind of dollar amount, no matter how big a win you get.

But if you can get any of the Trumpers to admit that they were wrong, and the election was legit, you would be doing some service to the democracy, in light of the facts, because the resistance is hard- bitten.

John Poulos, we'll be watching. And please consider yourself an open invitation, on this show.

POULOS: Thank you.

C. CUOMO: To have a platform, as it goes along.

POULOS: Thank you very much. Nice to be here, Chris.

C. CUOMO: All right, good luck.

We'll be right back.








C. CUOMO: Want to hear a story? "Larry? How can I help you, Brother Zeiger?" That's how I first heard my father speak to and about Larry King. Zeiger - Zeiger was his born last name. The man needs no introduction.


But I didn't know Larry King the way most of you did. When I got a call that he had passed, I immediately had another reason to hate COVID, because I know it took a lot out of him, and I lost another piece of Pop, because he loved Larry, the man, not the media guy.

Many are going to remember Brother King for his throwback look, his style, his braces, that distinct voice, the old school mike. For over 25 years, he hosted CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE," right in this slot. He defined what 9:00 P.M. at this network means. 1985, he started.

But he was a lot more than TV to me. He was a mensch. He was a mentor. He was a man I could trust.

Now, my father, he didn't trust many in the media, especially TV. But Larry was someone he related to. He's an ethnic. He was a depression baby, was tough and straight, and was a big reason that I'm in your face tonight.

Pop was Larry's first guest ever here. And he was supposed to be his last. Didn't work out. That's a long story. You could tell, when Pop was on, with Larry, he got a different Mario, than other media.



MARIO MATTHEW CUOMO, (D) FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: Being governor, 12 years ago, was a fantasy. 15 years ago, it was an absurdity. And when I was a kid, you know, just beyond contemplation. So, given the kind of history, I've had, given the enormous good luck I've had, I wouldn't rule anything out.

I mean, jeez, if I could get to be governor, with the little ability I brought to it, and with the little probability that there was, when I was growing up in South Jamaica, this country is so marvelous that anybody who rules anything out, while they're alive in this country, is not being reasonable.


C. CUOMO: That's Cindy Adams, legend in New York, journalism, gossip.

That's Larry and my father.

You know? My Pop wasn't that much older than I am, right now, when he was first with Larry. Hearing his voice! Hearing Larry's voice!

Larry was the person that my father called when I decided to leave the law and to pursue journalism. My father called Larry to help him stop it. He called Larry to tell me not to do it. And then, Larry ended up doing the opposite. He said to me, "I'm not going to tell your father. But listen, you

should do it. I think you have what they call "It." You pop." He said it's going to be very hard. People aren't going to want you. And he was right.

He told me it was going to take time, and that I would have to, more than others, show that I will go anywhere, and do anything, at any time. "But through it all, be tough and fair." And I've tried to do exactly that, for over 20 years.

Now, once I got a "Decent gig," as Larry called it, he had me on his show with my ABC colleagues.

No puff interview for me! Listen.


LARRY KING, TELEVISION AND RADIO HOST, BROADCASTING GIANT: Chris, did you think of politics before journalism?

C. CUOMO: No. No. It's the other Cuomo son, you know? I mean I think that maybe in part because I recognized the amount of conviction that Andrew had for it. And he, early on, had suggested that I go into this. I practiced law before I got into journalism.

But I think that when you come from a political family, certainly with the example of my mother and father that I've had, it makes you think deeply about how to best serve.


C. CUOMO: Two things. One, Obama got that suit for me. Two, I don't even know who that is any more. I don't look like that. I don't sound like that. But Larry was good to put us on, and he was good to me always.

You know? They get it wrong when they say Larry was soft in interviews. No, he wasn't soft. Look, I knew him, OK? He grew up starving with no father in a tough part of Brooklyn and at a tough time. He didn't need to beat people up because they came to him to open up.

Larry got people to talk because they trusted him. He was straight and he was decent. And he was all that all the time for me.

When I made the hardest career choice, I've ever faced, which was to leave ABC, to come to CNN, he told me to do it. And he said, "I'm going to say it in public. I'll say it. They'll see. They'll say it." And he was right.

And he said the same thing Jeff Zucker did, which is "If you want to fight the good fight then go there. Go do that. That's hard. But go do it. Staying is easy." And he was right.

[21:55:00] And then, when he saw me, up here, in PRIME TIME, we spoke, and I said, "I don't know. I want to stay at "NEW DAY." We built this beautiful thing. We're relevant in the morning here, in a way they never have been."

And it's true. "NEW DAY" is the best morning show, right now, this network has ever had. And I didn't want to leave, especially for the toughest competition. I knew it was a beating waiting to happen.

He told me, "You don't sound like much of a fighter, if all you're worried about is whether you're going to win or lose." He knew that as a fighter himself. He survived several heart attacks, cancer, suffered the loss of two of his kids.

And, in his work, he was never daunted by any name. In all of his roughly 50,000 interviews, he always made a point to lean in physically, lean in. Presence, listening, learning, letting them know, "I'm here, I'm present." No scripted questions, no just following along.

He listened with his head and his heart. It didn't matter if you were world leader, royalty, celebrity, or everyday Joe. He was a beautiful man.

And we would share the person that we both agreed was the most unusual person we ever interviewed, a child poet, named Mattie Stepanek.


C. CUOMO: Where does all this wisdom come from, Mattie? You're an 11- year-old kid.

MATTHEW JOSEPH THADDEUS STEPANEK, POET: From inside of me, at my Heartsong.

KING: What do we mean by "Heartsongs"?

STEPANEK: A Heartsong is your inner beauty. It's your inner message. It's what you feel you want to do.

Everyone has a different Heartsong and the differences are what make them beautiful.


C. CUOMO: Now he's gone, Mattie is gone. Pop is gone. And Larry is gone. And the timing is a torment because we need Larry King right now more than we ever have.

But you know, in his passing there is a gift, and it's a gift of him being brought into everybody's focus. Remembering what he meant to us, straight, decent, real.

Now, there will never be another Larry King because his combination of grit, life experience, bearing, it comes once. And the more that people like me try to remember and emulate what made him respected, what made him better, the more we do that, it will keep him alive, but also it will make us better, and that's what we need.

So, it is not goodbye. It is "See you soon, brother."

But, of course, Larry would say it better.


KING: I don't know what to say except to you, my audience, thank you, and instead of goodbye, how about so long?