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Cuomo Prime Time
Greene Pleaded With Troopers: "I'm Your Brother, I'm Scared"; Trump DOJ Secretly Obtained CNN Reporter's Phone And Email Records; Maricopa County Told To Replace All Voting Machines After "Audit". Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 20, 2021 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And he said the interview contributed significantly to his mother's fear, paranoia, and isolation, in the years before her death.
The broadcast was, as Prince William put it, "A major contribution to making my parents' relationship worse and has since hurt countless others."
The inquiry found that Bashir had acted in a deceitful way, and had faked documents, in order to obtain the interview. The BBC said it. It apologized in writing, to both Prince William and his brother, Harry.
The news continues. Let's hand it over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Hey, thanks, Anderson, appreciate it.
I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
If you would, allow me a moment? If you'll remember, I told you, back in the beginning of March, I can't cover my brother's troubles. It wouldn't be fair. And you got it then. And I appreciate you understanding.
Now today, there are stories out there about me offering my brother advice. Of course, I do. This is no revelation. I have said it publicly. And I certainly have never hidden it.
I can be objective about just about any topic, but not about my family. Those, of you who watch this show, get it. Like you, I bet, my family means everything to me. And I am fiercely loyal to them. I'm "Family First, Job Second."
But being a journalist, and a brother to a politician, is unique, and a unique challenge. And I have a unique responsibility to balance those roles. It's not always easy. And people can say and write what they want. But I want you to know the truth.
How I helped my brother also matters. When my brother's situation became turbulent, being looped into calls with other friends of his, and advisers that did include some of his staff, I understand why that was a problem for CNN.
It will not happen again. It was a mistake, because I put my colleagues here, who I believe are the best in the business, in a bad spot. I never intended for that. I would never intend for that. And I am sorry for that.
It's also important for you to understand, not only do I not cover this here. I've never tried to influence this Network's coverage of my brother. In fact, I've been walled off from it.
This is a unique and difficult situation. And that's OK. I know where the line is. I can respect it, and still be there for my family, which I must. I have to do that. I love my brother. I love my family.
I love my job. And I love and respect my colleagues here at CNN. And again, to them, I am truly sorry.
You know who I am. You know what I'm about. And I want this to be said, in public, to you who give me the opportunity, and to my colleagues, who make me better at what I do.
Now, I want to turn to a situation that is much more difficult to understand and demands our collective attention.
You are about to see some of what happened about a year before the police-murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis. And this confirms the notion that George Floyd was not a one-off. He was not an aberration.
This happened before in Louisiana. Like with Floyd, the killing was shrouded in lies, for years, until now. The video had been held pending investigation. We'll get into what that means.
There were no people around, like with George Floyd, to pull out cell phones. But the officers did have bodycams on. And what you were about to see was known to police and maybe other officials.
Here's the situation. Ronald Greene, 49-years-old, was chased by state troopers, in the middle of the night, while driving.
Now, all we know about what led up to this is that police wanted to pull Greene over, for some sort of traffic violation, or so they claimed, and they say he ran. Well, there's certainly a pursuit.
A lawsuit by Greene's family claims that police told them he died instantly in a car accident, after hitting a tree. At least that's what his mother was told by one officer, she says.
The Associated Press obtained what it says is about 46 minutes of the bodycam video. So far, it's only posted a little over 2 minutes' worth. But it goes a long way. It is disturbing. And as always, I give you the option that it's hard to watch.
But you know how I feel about this. If you want to deal with reality, you got to face the reality. And it starts with the moment that troopers tase Greene through his open car door, after the chase. Here it is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see your (BLEEP) hands. Let me - let me see your (BLEEP) hands mother (BLEEP).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll do it. I'm sorry (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come here mother (BLEEP).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got - I got--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out the door.
RONALD GREENE, AFRICAN AMERICAN MAN WHO DIED IN POLICE CUSTODY: OK. OK. OK.
[21:05:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out the door.
GREENE: OK. Oh, lord! Oh lord Jesus! Oh!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see those hands. Let me see those hands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out your car (ph).
GREENE: OK. OK. I'm scared. I'm sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off.
GREENE: I'm scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car.
GREENE: I'm scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible).
GREENE: Officer, I'm scared. I'm your brother, I'm scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, now what you hear there is "I'm sorry. I'm scared. I'm your brother, I'm scared." That is Greene's voice. First of all, what does that tell us? He is not dead-on impact.
Now, once he is out of the car, a second video shows Greene forced to the ground, punched repeatedly, and tased again. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREENE: Officer? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.
GREENE: I'm scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taser! Taser! Taser!
(TASER GUN FIRED)
GREENE: Ah!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show us your hands.
GREENE: My god!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind your back.
GREENE: Ah!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands behind your back.
GREENE: Ah!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, goddammit, get up here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get (BLEEP).
GREENE: Ah!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (BLEEP) you better not move.
GREENE: Ah!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got it?
GREENE: Ah!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You all right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have got blood all over me. I hope this guy ain't got (BLEEP) AIDS.
GREENE: Ah!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: At the end, that's the officer saying "I have got blood all over me. I hope this guy ain't got bleeping AIDS."
Then the audio is cut off, so we don't know what else is being said. But we can see. And in this next clip, I would want - I would say that you should watch the lower left side, to start, OK?
(VIDEO - RONALD GREENE IN POLICE CUSTODY)
CUOMO: A trooper uses his foot to force Greene to lay face-down. Do you see what's happening here, OK? So, he's got him laying face-down. Remember, he's cuffed. You can see the cuffs in the lower left-hand corner. He's not going anywhere.
Then this, a few moments later.
(VIDEO - RONALD GREENE IN POLICE CUSTODY)
CUOMO: You (inaudible) ankle cuffs on him. They get him on. So now, they will drag him by the ankles. Are they trained to do that?
The AP reports Greene was then left face-down for more than 5 minutes. I know. That number is haunting. You remember it from George Floyd.
While troopers use sanitizer wipes, to clean the blood off their hands, and faces, they don't do a thing to get Greene medical aid.
Please keep all of that in mind, when you learn how the state police originally described what happened, in their initial complaint. Here it is.
"The pursuit ended when Greene crashed his vehicle. Greene was taken into custody after resisting arrest and a struggle with Troopers. A short time later, Greene became unresponsive and was transported to Glenwood Medical Center. Greene died while en route to Glenwood Medical Center."
What is left out of that? Everything that you just saw. Nothing there suggests the car crash is why Greene died. Struggle doesn't really capture it, does it?
Does it capture how he was treated, how he was dragged by his ankles, when he was ankle-cuffed, and cuffed behind his back with his arms that he'd been tased repeatedly? Did he just become unresponsive?
The AP also obtained a medical report. An ER doctor wrote that when Greene's body reached the hospital, it was bruised and bloodied with two stun gun prongs in his back.
The AP says "That led the doctor to question troopers' initial account that Greene had "Died on impact" after crashing into a tree. "Does not add up," the doctor wrote."
The state police don't want anyone putting the video out there, they say, because of the state and federal investigations that are still underway. Two years, no charges, all this bodycam video. Isn't that a lot to go on to have this protracted a period, of analysis?
And add this to the mix, a trooper making this admission.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VOICE OF TROOPER CHRIS HOLLINGSWORTH, LOUISIANA STATE POLICE: And I beat the ever-living (BLEEP) out of him, choked him and everything else trying to get him under control. We finally got him in handcuffs when a third man got there and the son-of-a-(BLEEP) was still fighting and was still wrestling with him and we tried to hold him down. He was spitting blood everywhere and all of a sudden he just went limp.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: OK, the least, the officer gives detail that the report did not, right?
Now, it would be helpful to talk to that trooper about the events of that night. But he is also dead. He was killed in a single car crash in September, reportedly not long after learning he'd be fired for his role that night.
Tonight, a state official with knowledge of the Greene case tells CNN that state police were investigating this incident as a criminal matter, the Night of the Event.
That source tells us, in their words, "The narrative that he died from a car crash, I don't know where that came from. This has been a criminal investigation since day one."
So then not just the officers at the scene, but obviously investigating officers, and maybe that means other public officials, have been aware of this video, for this long, and yet it has never been made public, because it was necessary for the investigation? This long all that video, no action taken, does that sound right?
CNN has reached out to the other officers' attorneys for comment on the video. We're waiting.
Right now, I am joined by Ronald Greene's sister, Alana Wilson, and Ron Haley, an attorney for the family.
I want to thank you both.
I'm sorry, Alana, to meet you under these circumstances. But I know you want this story told. To help us understand the difference between what you've seen, and what you've been told, what were you told initially about this?
ALANA WILSON, RONALD GREENE'S SISTER: Initially, I was told he died from car accident, he went through the windshield, he hit a tree, and he died on impact.
CUOMO: Who told you that?
WILSON: I was the first one to receive the call. And I spoke to a state trooper.
CUOMO: And was it a trooper, who identified themselves as having been at the scene? Or were they just passing along information?
WILSON: He wouldn't say.
CUOMO: When did you get to see video?
WILSON: Yesterday.
CUOMO: What did it mean to you, what we all just watched?
WILSON: I'm saddened by the reality of the world that Black and Brown people have to live in this day. It's not our American Dream.
CUOMO: When you would believe that long that it was a car crash, and then got to see such a different reality in the video, what was the hardest part for you emotionally, in processing that?
WILSON: Honestly, I haven't even been able to process it. I'm still on the hunt, and on a chase, for finding justice for my brother. Period!
CUOMO: Why do you think it has been so long without any action taken?
WILSON: Because it's the cover-up on so many levels. From the EMTs, to the troopers, to the Senate, the Governor, the D.A., we've been getting a run-around since day one.
We were told it was going to be a setback due to the holidays, there was going to be a setback due to the pandemic. It's been over 730 days.
CUOMO: Counselor, what is your best sense of why the investigation has taken this long and why the video hasn't come out?
And doing a little legal research, they don't have a law like the North Carolina we've been struggling with that "Unless the D.A. wants it out, you have to have a court order and a judge."
I believe we have the language. If you can put it up on the screen, for everybody, fine.
If not, from my memory, it's that you need - "Body-worn camera video or audio recordings that are determined by the custodian to violate an individual's reasonable expectation of privacy shall be disclosed upon a determination and order from a court of competent jurisdiction."
So, that raises two questions. One, who had a reasonable expectation of privacy, except Mr. Greene, who is deceased, because the others are officers, wearing the camera, as part of their job? And did anybody file an order like that on behalf of the family?
RON HALEY, ATTORNEY FOR RONALD GREENE'S FAMILY: Well, listen, Chris, thank you for having me.
[21:15:00]
Let's talk about this from a practical manner. The release of the video and the damage that it does to the credibility of the Louisiana State Police is exactly the reason why it's been suppressed. The suppression of the truth has gone on for two years, because you saw what is on there. And what you saw on that video was murder, murder that has not been accounted for.
Understand this. These troopers have been allowed to still serve the Louisiana State Police, and possibly violate other civil rights, for two years.
There's been no arrest. The most someone has gotten is 50 hours of leave time. And that is laughable, and a slap in the face to justice, and a slap in the face to the Greene family.
CUOMO: Has anyone been fired?
HALEY: No.
CUOMO: And when you saw the video, and you went to the authorities, and say this is not how was it - it was explained, as a vehicular death that he died in the car, what has been their response?
HALEY: Silence. It's been "It's under investigation." Just the idea, quote, unquote, that "We can't release anything, because it's under investigation."
Look, this is an excuse. This is the playbook that the Louisiana State Police does all the time. This is not limited to Ronald Greene. We have Aaron Bowman, who was beat the same way, two weeks after this incident, by the same folks in Troop F.
And understand this, Chris. The Louisiana State Police is in charge with investigating 99 percent of the excessive force and wrongful death cases, against police departments, throughout the State of Louisiana.
Do you think they should be the ones investigating these cases? I think not.
CUOMO: They said they still don't want the video released. A source told CNN "This has always been handled as a criminal matter." Do you believe that?
HALEY: Absolutely not. This is an embarrassment. And the idea they want to hide behind the idea that this is somehow going to tilt the wheels of justice or create an impartial balance, Chris, let me tell this, to the contrary. That's the point of bodycams, right?
Bodycams are supposed to be the most impartial proof of evidence, when it pertains to a citizen and police officer interaction. The camera doesn't lie. And in this case, the camera doesn't lie. The camera shows murder.
CUOMO: Alana, they say - their description is that they had to do this to subdue your - subdue your brother. What do you think of that? And what do you want people to know about Ronald Greene?
WILSON: I want people to know that Ronald loved people. And you could hear that in his voice.
He said "I'm scared. I'm telling you, I'm scared." His hands were up. "I'm scared. You're my brother." That's who he was. And he exude that even in the midst of them taking him down.
They said it was a struggle? He didn't struggle at all. As soon as they came in, they tased him right away. It's sad. It's honestly sad. And it's sad that I can't even grieve my brother properly, knowing that they did this to an innocent human being.
This should have never happened like this. And the fact that they're continuing to cover it up is sickening. It's sickening. We're not going to stop until we get justice.
CUOMO: The tape is out now. The authorities will be questioned. And we will stay on them, until they can give us an understanding, of why they held the video, and why nothing has happened in two years.
That's the job. We will do it. I promise you that. Alana Wilson, I am sorry for you. Please send my regards to your family.
WILSON: Appreciate it.
CUOMO: And Counselor Haley, we're a call away. Let us know what developments we need to inform the people about.
HALEY: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right, another investigation that we were following, new details about the raid at Rudy Giuliani's home and office. What is the exposure now for the former president's attorney?
And you know all this talk about Deep State and how they use the DOJ to come after Trump? Did you hear what the Trump Justice Department did, to a Reporter, here?
A brilliant legal mind, with insight, into what is afoot, next.
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[21:20:00]
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CUOMO: For the third time, in as many weeks, we're learning about the Trump Administration using the Department of Justice to do what they always complained it was doing to them, secretly targeting others, for advantage, including journalists and critics.
This time, it is our Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr. Prosecutors got her phone and email records, covering two months in the summer of 2017. They examined her Pentagon extension, the CNN Pentagon booth phone number, and her home and cell phones, as well as Starr's work and personal email accounts.
What can make this OK? And what does this mean about the state of play? Who better than former White House Ethics Czar, Norm Eisen?
Why does anybody's records matter, because it's about privacy, and unlawful search and seizure, unreasonably so. For journalists, taking the phone, or records of a journalist, exposes a host of people that we have an ethical obligation to protect.
NORM EISEN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ETHICS CZAR, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, HOUSE JUDICIARY SPECIAL COUNSEL IN TRUMP'S FIRST IMPEACHMENT: Chris, thanks for having me back on the program.
[21:25:00]
And as we put more distance on the Trump administration, we're finding out more and more, really, the shocking and unprecedented behavior.
And this invasion of the journalistic profession, today, we've learned about CNN, previously, "The Washington Post," "BuzzFeed," all adversaries of the Trump administration, Chris.
And it - there are cases when national security or other considerations, extraordinary cases allow this. But the evidence here seems to be it was part of a pattern of retaliation. It is the worst nightmare of what an Administration and a Justice Department can do to--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: But shouldn't they have to explain what warranted, because the DOJ didn't go away. It's just run by different people now. Shouldn't - there got to be people who are involved in this, who are there. Shouldn't they have to explain why they obtained this Journalist's records?
EISEN: Well, this new administration, and the new management at DOJ, it's night and day, with what we had before. I think we're just beginning to learn what transpired.
I know DOJ has offered to discuss this. And I'm confident we are going to learn more. And we're going to see what the basis was. But we know the - we've seen other public abuses in the Trump Department of Justice, both under Sessions and under Bill Barr.
And I think, as the information comes out, Chris, we're going to see a very unsavory pattern. And this may not be the last revelation of the invasion of the First Amendment and the attack on journalists.
CUOMO: You know and just-- EISEN: So, it's as troubling as can be.
CUOMO: And just to be fair, I wasn't a big fan of some of the things that wouldn't happen - happened in the Obama Administration, with Eric Holder. He was chasing after journalists, too. But I have never heard of them getting the records of journalists secretly.
I mean, this - I don't understand how this isn't the fascination of everybody. I mean, I guess you could argue, I'm sensitive, because we're CNN. But I don't know why everybody isn't up in arms in this because if they did it to Barbara Starr, how do you know it's not happening to you right now, as a journalist?
Now, that takes us to what we do know, which is what they got out of Giuliani. Why did they need 18 devices, if they have Giuliani's iCloud? I say this because of newly-unredacted court filings show that the prosecutors took 18 devices from Giuliani, and some of his employees.
The bulk of the now-revealed material relates to a search of his iCloud account. If you have that, why do you need anything else?
EISEN: Oh, well, Chris, there is often additional data and metadata that resides on these devices, in various places that can provide devastating proof of wrongdoing. Not all of that gets uploaded to iCloud, and other places, electronically.
So, you always, it is standard investigative procedure, usually, as you're getting towards the latter stages of the investigation, to go and get the actual devices. And the FBI can strip extraordinary amounts of information over there that - off of there that aren't available elsewhere.
It's the flip side of what Barbara Starr and the other journalists at "The Post" and "BuzzFeed" have suffered.
Here, you have the Department of Justice, methodically building a case, and the new Department of Justice bending over backward, in the court filing you described, to say, "Hey, let's have a Special Master look at this." Why? To respect constitutional rights, Chris.
CUOMO: Yes. A Special Master means before it gets to the actual DOJ people, they get an independent person to look at it, and see what should be open to their eyes or not.
Is it perfect? No, you still have somebody looking at it. But they don't have the same enforcement capabilities of prosecutorial abilities, that Special Master that the Department of Justice would.
Norm Eisen, thank you very much. Appreciate you.
EISEN: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: All right, so now, to another situation we're monitoring, the Arizona Fraud-it of the election, OK, it's about to cost millions more for taxpayers. Why? I'll tell you. And what have they gotten so far? Conspiracies about ballots laced
with bamboo, ballots fed to chickens, ballots tainted with cheese dust. I'm not making any of this up. What is the truth?
We have one of the expert observers to exactly what's happening, next.
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CUOMO: The Fraud-it, the farce of an audit in Arizona, it ain't free. It's not free for our democracy, with all the distrust.
But it's also not free to the state's most populated county, which now has to decommission and replace all their expensive voting machines. Why? Nobody has any idea what the Cyber Ninjas are doing to them, which poses an actual security risk.
Yet, MAGA-Nation seems to want in on the action. In the town of Windham, New Hampshire, we saw people demanding an audit of their own town. We've seen similar scenes in towns from Michigan to California.
A Trump supporter running against the Republican Governor of Georgia is pushing for one there, despite the fact the state already did three recounts, and one official audit, all run by Republicans.
Amazing that at the same time, these people can want all these things investigated that have already been investigated, but they don't want January 6th, the infamy of a day our Capitol was attacked, looked at, because they say they already know enough.
Liz Howard is with the Brennan Center. She's been tasked with observing the Cyber Ninjas in action.
Liz, thank you for joining us. What do the Cyber Ninjas look like in action?
ELIZABETH HOWARD, OFFICIAL OBSERVER TO AZ AUDIT, SENIOR COUNSEL, BRENNAN CENTER'S DEMOCRACY PROGRAM: Thank you for having me, Chris.
[21:35:00]
This procedure that, as you've noted, the Secretary of State is calling a Fraud-it, has been flawed from the very beginning. The Senate selected a firm, who's CEO has promoted election fraud
conspiracy theories, and who has authored at least one of the memos that appears on Sidney Powell's election fraud website. And things have just gone downhill from there.
The procedures in the arena are alarming, and they are drastically different from the typical post-election audit procedures that you see and use, across the country, by election officials.
Just from very simple things, such as providing written instructions, written procedures, for the audit, before the audit starts, applying those procedures consistently, and then, even down to there, the method for - or ballot counting.
In a typical post-election audit, a team of officials will review individual ballots to make sure that they both agree on how to count that individual ballot.
In the event that there are stray marks, or marks, which one of those officials questions, in a typical audit, there's a clear escalation procedure, to ensure that that ballot gets additional scrutiny, and is counted accurately, because again, in a typical post-election audit, you care about accuracy.
CUOMO: Right.
HOWARD: Now, this is very, very different than what you see at the Coliseum.
CUOMO: So, for the people who don't get the expertise, do these people know what they're doing or not?
HOWARD: No. No. They have no substantive elections or auditing experience. And it absolutely shows. One of the more concerning procedures has to do with how they're asking people, the ballot counters, to count the ballots.
They placed the ballots on a spinning table, and spin the ballot, past individuals that are supposed to check, to see how the ballot was marked for two different races, mark their tally sheet, before the next ballot comes whizzing by on the table.
CUOMO: Why do it that way? And what's the risk?
HOWARD: So, there's a couple of risks involved with this.
So first off, each of the three counters at this table, where there's spinning ballots, keeps their own tally sheets. Now, one of the main concerns that I have with the procedure is that the tally sheets are not required to match, in order for the audit to proceed.
So, here, they're basically taking a poll of three different people, "How do you think that ballot should be counted," as opposed to taking the time necessary to individually review each ballot, and make sure that any ballot that has unclear marks on it is counted accurately and consistently. CUOMO: So, the only thing we can guarantee is that their numbers are not going to match what came, when it was audited by other people. And that's really all this has ever been about from the start.
Liz Howard, thank you for being with us. It's good to have a fair set of eyes. I'm sure we'll talk again. Good luck to you.
HOWARD: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right. Hey, do you live in one of those places, where they're saying, "If you want the vaccine and haven't gotten it, we'll give you these perks?" like in Ohio, where anybody who took it, or anybody who wants it, can get in a lottery, that jackpot, gift cards, beer? Is any of it really moving the needle for Americans?
Guess who we enlisted? The Wizard of Odds, the master of free things, on what is paying off, and why some people, who might want the vaccine, still aren't getting it, next.
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CUOMO: Never going to be a stick, but there is obviously a carrot, the incentives for people who want to get the vaccine, or people, who are worried about it or hesitant.
We now have some data to shed light on what works to get people to take the vaccine, other than science.
This is important because only seven states have vaccinated more than 70 percent of adults. That's supposedly the magic number, although I think the suggestion is that there is no magic number. Just more is better.
Our Wizard of Odds, Harry Enten, is here with a closer look.
So, is it true that we are seeing increases in Ohio? And if so, why?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER AND ANALYST: We are seeing increases in Ohio. It is true. And they put together this lottery system last week.
And look at this. After this lottery system, if they said you get the vaccine, you'll be eligible to win $1 million, look at this, as a weekend to weekend change, up 28 percent compared to the prior weekend.
Now look at what happened. What we were seeing was decreasing vaccination rates in Ohio. So, it was down 25 percent the weekend before. But all of a sudden we saw this increase.
And I will also say, I was looking at the data nationally, and you don't see that same type of increase. So what's the difference between Ohio and nationally? It was that they - that's exactly - there it is. That New York money-grub, and that's exactly what, to me, seems to have worked, at least in the State of Ohio.
CUOMO: Why is it got to be New York money-grub, when it's in Ohio? Why can't it be in Ohio, the Cleveland money-grub?
All right, so it's not just money. Some states are using unconventional incentives. What are we seeing about what they're using, and what's working?
ENTEN: You're right. So, one thing that we're doing, in Western New York, was they offered free beer. And that seemed to actually work in Buffalo.
And we know that from the polling, right that what we, you know, there are other ideas, perhaps we should just give money, and that may work well. It polls well with Democrats.
The idea of no longer needing to wear a mask, if you get vaccinated, which obviously a lot of places are now instituting, that polls well with Republicans.
And so, I think what we really should be doing here is putting all hands on deck, right, whether it be a lottery, whether it be savings bonds that they're doing in West Virginia, whether it be free beer and wine that they're doing in New Jersey, all these different ideas, right, Chris?
We have to use untraditional sort of things in order to get perhaps some people, who might not otherwise be willing to get vaccinated, actually get them to do it, because if they haven't done it so far, then whatever we have been doing simply hasn't been working.
CUOMO: There is a perversity here that we'll discuss someday, which is most of the people who don't want the vaccine are Republicans/whatever you call Trumpers.
And they are usually the people who say, "I don't use my money, to give people other things that I have to work for myself."
[21:45:00]
Now, you've got those same people being incentivized in a way that the people, who went out, and just got the vaccine, don't get. And it's their tax dollars that are being used to fund the incentives for these Republicans and Trumpers. All right, it's not just people that want the carrot. They also want to avoid a stick. Workers are worried about losing wages to take PTO and recover from side effects. How big a deal?
ENTEN: I think it is a big deal, right?
This idea that we necessarily want to be giving out lotteries, and giving out money, that's perfectly fine. But at the end of the day, I think what we're seeing is a lot of working-class folks, who haven't been able to get the vaccine for one reason or another.
So paid time-off, if that actually says, among the vaccine-hesitant, 47 percent says it's more likely that they will go out, and get the vaccine. If the vaccine is offered at the place that they go for health care, 46 percent. Only need one dose for to be vaccinated, 45 percent. Those are well above the idea of just giving money.
So, I think what we also need to keep in mind here is we really do need to make it as easy as possible for people to get vaccinated, because if we don't, they may not get it.
I think there are a lot of folks out there, who want to get vaccinated, but for whatever reason, they just can't get the time-off from work, or it's just not convenient for them to be able to get the vaccine.
CUOMO: I still believe that a lot of this is about the federal government, who has the most data, and the most ability, to do so, sending out a way for you to show that you got vaccinated, and not leaving it state-by-state and business-by-business.
The weakness of my suggestion is if it is not equal for people to get the vaccine based on socioeconomics. What do we know about that?
ENTEN: Right. This is one thing I think is so important to keep in mind is that if we look among the people who have, you know, let's say that people who want a COVID vaccine, but haven't gotten it, look at this.
Black or Hispanic, 18 percent, in the most recent Marist Poll, incomes less than $50,000, household incomes, 18 percent, much higher than better educated - better - higher income folks, and White folks.
So, it seems to me that there does seem to be some inequity going on, right now, in the vaccine distribution, because there are a lot of people in the communities of color, as well as those, in those lower income brackets, who simply put, want the vaccine, but haven't been able to get it.
We need to make it much easier for folks to get it, which is exactly what we saw on that prior slide, which was that people, who say they haven't gotten it yet, but might be vaccine-hesitant, the way you get them to get it, the way you get them to get it, is simply by making it as easy as possible, for them to get the vaccine.
CUOMO: And money doesn't hurt. Harry? ENTEN: No, money never hurts.
CUOMO: Thank you very much, Wiz. Appreciate you.
ENTEN: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: So, with all the incentives, to get vaccinated, what's happening in the places, where people are not showing up, to get their shots? It's not good.
Bringing in a better mind to take us through the trend lines, and where the next big battle could surface. This matters! Next.
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CUOMO: Let's bring in Dr. Ashish Jha.
Doc, as always, we know lower the vaccine - higher the vaccination rate, more people vaccinated, fewer cases. In fact, it's not easy to find big contagions around the country right now.
However, how concerned should we be, about the virus flourishing in areas, with clusters of unvaccinated people, especially as a coefficient of where variants are?
DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes, Chris, thanks for having me on.
I'm actually pretty worried. And I'll tell you why. Last summer, right around June, July, we saw a big surge of cases in the South.
Why in the South, because it gets pretty hot. It's hard to spend time outside, people cluster indoors. And if we have large numbers of unvaccinated people, in those states, we may very well see a surge in those states. So, I think a lot of us are worried about that.
CUOMO: Texas says "Shut up!" They're actively prohibiting mask mandates, saying "You can't say wear a mask in school." Why are you concerned? CDC says unvaccinated kids should continue wearing masks this fall.
The pushback is "You don't have the data. Kids don't get that sick. Most of them are asymptomatic. You tried to scare us with the Kawasaki syndrome. It's only a handful of kids."
Why isn't Texas right?
JHA: Well, look, first of all, kids, thankfully, don't get as sick as adults. But kids do get sick. We've seen a lot of hospitalizations, and unfortunately, even a few deaths in kids, from this disease. So I think the idea that kids don't get sick at all, is not right.
And what we need to be doing is, as infection numbers come down, we got to continue protecting kids. I do think that in areas with large numbers of infections, kids should be wearing masks indoors.
I don't know why the state is banning that, and letting - not letting localities make their own decisions about these things.
CUOMO: "Big Brother," that "you're just doing this to muscle-up on them. It's a liberty issue. And that you are not factoring in the nightmare it is to keep kids with masks on, especially at the younger ages."
JHA: Well, I've got a - I've got a kid, who's pretty young, who's 9- years-old. He wears a mask all day. It's not a nightmare. You know what was a nightmare? That he - when he couldn't go to school at all, and was on Zoom all day.
One of the things that masks allow you to do is get kids back in, when they're not vaccinated. So, I absolutely think freedom is the freedom to go back to school. Masks help with that. And I don't think we should abridge that freedom.
CUOMO: How much progress are we making, if people are still fighting the science at the state level?
JHA: Yes, it's frustrating, right? Because like we are in the middle of the worst pandemic in a century, we actually have a ticket out, like this is no longer really a fight, like we know what the right answers are.
Get people vaccinated. Wear mask indoors, if you're not vaccinated. Let's move on with our lives. And the fact that we're fighting these things is incredibly frustrating, because we're fighting ourselves. We're not just fighting the virus anymore.
CUOMO: Now, I will say this just to put it on record, and we'll discuss it when it becomes a reality. I've been looking at the data that people in your position and others are passing on to me about the boosters.
And it seems like if you get a booster shot, after being vaccinated twice, the antibody pick-up is impressive to the point that maybe you would never need to do anything else, about this virus, and maybe even a host of other ones.
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But people don't want this vaccine, and now you're going to tell them they need something else, it's going to be a problem. But we'll deal with it, when we get to it.
Dr. Jha, thank you.
JHA: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: We'll be right back.
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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Every time we're silent, every time we let hate flourish, you make a lie of who we are as a nation.
My message to all of those of you who are hurting is: We see you. And the Congress has said: We see you. And we are committed to stop the hatred and the bias.
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CUOMO: The Anti-Asian hate crimes bill, now signed into law, was passed with bipartisan votes, but shamefully, without the support of 63 Republicans, including one senator, Josh Hawley of Missouri.
Hawley is supposed to be a legal scholar. And he says the bill turns the federal government into the Speech Police that it gives government sweeping authority to decide what counts as offensive speech, and then monitor it.
The problem is they only do that, after you hit someone, because they were Asian.
Thank you for watching. "DON LEMON TONIGHT" starts right now.
