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S.E. Cupp Unfiltered

2020 Democrats Reinforcing, Recovering From Debate Messages; Biden Camp Deflects Age Attacks, Decries Media Coverage; Trump Campaign 2020 Strategy: Rev Up The Base; CNN Poll: 2020 Voter Enthusiasm Significantly Higher Than Previous Presidential Election Cycles; Dems Split After Judiciary CMTE Votes On Impeachment Probe; Rep. Chrissy Houlahan (D-PA) Is Interviewed About The Split Of Democrats After The Judiciary Committee Vote On Impeachment; Official: Universal Background Check Talks Grind To Halt. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired September 14, 2019 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:00:00]

S.E. CUPP, CNN HOST: Welcome to UNFILTERED.

The 2020 Democratic candidates are all over the country today trying to reinforce or in some cases recover from their debate performances. Elizabeth Warren who had a pretty decent night is in Springfield, Massachusetts today where she had this to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Democrats have a job to do in 2020, beat Donald Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: It's a good, if odd reminder, to the Democrats running for president that the goal of this whole thing is to beat Trump, but he didn't come up a whole lot at the debate. According to 538, Trump was mentioned by the candidates a total of 35 times during Thursday's debate.

That's down from 61 and 72 times on the second debate's two nights. The frontrunner, Joe Biden, only mentioned Trump once despite the fact that his biggest selling point thus far has been I'm the best to beat Trump.

So here is tonight's headline. Yes, this is a Democratic primary, but don't forget it's, followed by a general election.

Thursday's debate, while highlighting some strong moments from some of the candidates, also revealed looming storm clouds on the horizon for Democrats. What might be working now to get Twitter likes and make headlines might also make it impossible to win in the general. All of the candidates say they're united against the common enemy Trump, but it doesn't always seem like they really mean it. If you're here to beat Trump then why are you trying to do it by proving that you're the farthest left on the stage? If you're here to beat Trump, then why are you trying to injure your potential nominee with personal, petty attacks? If you're here to beat Donald Trump, then why are you grandstanding on radical, unpopular policies that most Americans can't support and have no chance of becoming reality?

Here are just a few things that might feel good in a primary, but also play right into Trump's hands in a general, one, piling up on your well-liked, most electable and best polling candidate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They do not have to buy in.

JULIAN CASTRO (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You just said that. You just said that two minutes ago. You just said two minutes ago that they would have to buy in. Are you forgetting what you said two minutes ago? Are you forgetting already what you said just two minutes ago?

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are a lot of people who are concerned about Joe Biden's ability to carry the ball all the way across the end line without fumbling.

There are definitely moments when you listen to Joe Biden and you just wonder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: OK. Another bad idea, cutting a GOP ad while your party is trying to pass meaningful gun legislation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FMR. REP. BETO O'ROURKE (D-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hell, yes, we're going to take your AR-15, your AK-47.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: OK. Also bad, insisting people don't like something that poll after poll find they actually do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN: I've actually never met anybody who likes their health insurance company.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Also throwing kooky, downright disturbing ideas out there for the hell of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: We bring social workers into homes with parents to help them deal with how to raise their children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: None of this is helpful. Don't just take my word for it. Here's Democrat Senator Chris Coons on CNN Friday talking about Beto O'Rourke's big gun grab line.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): I frankly think that that clip will be played for years at Second Amendment rallies with organizations that try to scare people by saying Democrats are coming for your guns.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Here is the deal. Yes, primaries are for distinguishing yourself from the field. They're also about getting press and making waves. I get all that, but not if it's at the expense of the real end goal, which in this case is to get a Democrat into the White House. It isn't all that complicated.

Trump's wildly unpopular, so are many of his policies, run against them. That's it. And also stop saying crazy stuff.

OK. Here to discuss where the Democrats go next, former Democratic Senator from Indiana, Evan Bayh.

Senator, I think all of these candidates that we saw on Thursday are talented and, conceivably, any one of them should be able to beat Trump, but it feels like many of the candidates think this primary is happening in a vacuum, and it's not moderates and independents, and even Republicans, are tuning into. Do they need to focus less on scoring points with the far left and more on making the case they can beat Trump?

FORMER SEN. EVAN BAYH (D-IN): Probably, S.E. I thought your lead-in was very accurate. It's always a challenge particularly for the candidates who are below the top three, Biden, Sanders and Warren, who are better known.

[18:05:00]

It's always a challenge for them to try and break through. And the temptation is to try and take more extreme positions or to attack one of the top three to attempt to do that. But as you point out, that takes the spotlight off of Donald Trump, who is the ultimate objective, defeating him, and it also runs the risk of making you look a little petty and that sort of thing.

But for those who aren't the top three, it's a little bit like getting down to the end of the ball game, which we're approaching Iowa here before long. They've got to start throwing the longer Hail Mary-type passes, hoping that something changes.

CUPP: Yes. So -- but talk about this idea of pivoting to a general election. How does someone like Elizabeth Warren, for example, tell voters in a general election that she's abolishing their health insurance because she says they don't like it when polls show most Americans do?

BAYH: Well, I think what she meant to say was most Americans don't like their health insurance company, which is semantic, because, as you point out, most polls show that people do like their doctor, they do like their coverage. My guess is if you took a public opinion poll, most people might not like their health insurance company.

But to your point, that's going to be a big attack line if she or Bernie are the nominees in a general election, because most people want a choice. I thought Pete Buttigieg, from my home state, had a pretty good point, trust the American people, give them the option. If they want a public option, take it. But if they want to keep their public insurer, let them do that. I think that strikes a sensible middle ground. And most of the Democratic candidates are on that ground.

CUPP: It was a great line. I thought it was a really good way to frame to make his point.

So it was just announced the next debate will be October 15th hosted by CNN, "The New York Times" in Ohio. So I wanted to get your take on a couple of key moments from Thursday to think about what some might want to do differently in a month at that debate.

Let's start with Julian Castro. In my opinion, he wrote his political death certificate on Thursday. Should candidates be wary at the next debate of fighting too dirty?

BAYH: Well, of course. If you do something that's viewed as being unfair or a low blow, that is just going to blow back on the candidate who's doing that. So, yes, I think to the extent, they can stick to the issues, try and differentiate them on that, but don't get involved in personal things. As David Axelrod in your program before and many others have said, ultimately, the public will make those decisions for themselves.

CUPP: Beto O'Rourke's gun line, his passion is evident, and I think his frustration is the frustration of many Americans. But do Democrats have to worry about giving Republicans, you know, attack ads?

BAYH: Yes, I think at the margins. I think Chris Coons was right at the margins. That's probably going to help the Republicans and the NRA say that every Democrat is a fanatic that wants to start going into people's homes and seizing their guns.

But the good news is, Beto, with all due respect, unless something changes, is unlikely to be the nominee. Most of the other candidates did not stake out that position. And my guess, S.E., is if the Second Amendment really is the driving issue for someone, that's their single-issue voter, 90-some percent of those folks probably aren't going to vote for the Democratic candidate anyway.

CUPP: So Warren and Sanders, they seem to have forge this like mutual protection pact going on where they leave each other alone and swing instead at more moderate candidates, but how long, Senator, do you think that that can last? Do they need to eventually tell voters why they're different from one another?

BAYH: Yes, eventually. So it's kind of a dilemma. If you combine the vote for Warren and Sanders, that's actually more than the vote for Biden. But they've got to be respectful for each other because, eventually, each one wants the other's voters. So if they go after the other one on the left too hard, that's kind of a tough balance to strike.

So, ordinarily, one of them will run out of money and that would resolve this. But it looks like each one of them is going to have enough resources, so this could go on for a while. And I think in the long run, that immerse (ph) to the benefit of Joe Biden.

CUPP: Right.

BAYH: One thing I'd point out and it gets your great point at the beginning of all this, for the general electorate, about 22 percent of Americans consider themselves to be liberal, about 32 percent to be conservative, 40-some percent consider themselves to be moderate. So my advice would be to all of the candidates, don't forget that. Don't alienate those voters because, ultimately, we're going to need them to win and we're going to need them to govern.

CUPP: Yes, so important.

So Biden is the frontrunner currently. We'll see how debate affects him in a new polling that will come out.

What do you think he needs to do over the next month to keep that solid?

BAYH: Well, a couple of things. Focus on Trump. I'm surprised he only mentioned him once in the last debate because electability does work for the vice president. Because most Democrats, that's their top priority. They want someone who is with them on the issues, but even more, they want someone who can win the election. So keep focusing on that.

Stay close to the African-American community.

[18:10:00]

That's still one of his aces in the hole, particularly in South Carolina, which can be a bulwark if he stumbles in either Iowa or New Hampshire, and defend yourself, as he was doing in the debate, but take the high road. Be presidential.

I think many people in the Democratic Party and in the general election are looking for that, a return to some normalcy.

CUPP: Senator Evan Bayh, so glad you stopped by tonight. I really appreciate it.

BAYH: Thank you, S.E.

CUPP: Thanks.

OK. The Biden campaign was pretty pleased with how things went for the frontrunner this week, shot at his age aside. They are less happy with the media. What? I'll explain.

And the president gets to hold another rally on Monday in an unexpected place.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Is it fair for your rivals to play the age card?

BIDEN: Sure, it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Well, there was Julian Castro's inexplicable swing and miss and then Cory Booker's post-debate jabs Biden's stamina, and just this morning, Tim Ryan was asked again about his comments earlier that Biden was declining.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TIM RYAN (D-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was -- I was having an off-the-record conversation with somebody, and that's much different than public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: It feels a little like open season on Joe Biden's age this week, but the former vice president has taken it in stride.

[18:15:00]

His camp expected to take incoming fire from his Democratic rivals on that front. And Biden himself even said that it's totally appropriate for voters to consider his age.

Team Biden is, however, complaining about another kind of scrutiny from the press. Here's what one of his advisers told Politico this week.

I don't know of anybody who has taken as sustained and vitriolic and negative pounding as Biden, really, the most vicious press I think anyone has experienced.

Come again? What's that now? I think there are women who'd beg to differ, like Hillary Clinton, like Sarah Palin, like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I can keep going, Carly Fiorina, Elizabeth Warren, Ann Romney, Michelle Obama, Melania Trump, the O.G. of sustained and vitriolic, negative pounding, Monica Lewinsky. So is the media really being unfair to Biden? Well, here to discuss is the author of that Politico article, CNN Senior Political Analyst Ryan Lizza. I am so glad you got that reporting and got that bite from the Biden adviser. I mean, why is this --

RYAN LIZZA, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: And now we've got a lot of people mocked that line, a lot of people, especially Hillary Clinton's advisers.

CUPP: Yes, deservedly so. I mean, you don't have to have a long memory to remember some really vicious press treatment of some other candidates. But, I mean, none of this -- the point is none of this supposed negative coverage that he's complaining about has shrunk his lead. So why are they complaining?

LIZZA: Yes, and that's the context. And that's the context of it, S.E., is that we were talking about his resilience. And I was asking them, you know, why do you think it is that the guy basically started the year at 30 percent, and as of when that piece was published, still has that 30 percent? And he's gone through several waves of pretty tough criticism, right?

CUPP: Yes.

LIZZA: There was the issue of invading women's personal space. He took a lot of fire. There was the issue that was raised about his history of race relations. I mean, you had, you know, a lot of people when he -- when he was talking about his -- after Kamala Harris attacked him on his record on busing. So he went through those two pretty withering phases.

And then The Washington Post had an absolutely devastating piece about Biden recently about the story and him confusing all these details. I mean, I'm old enough to remember what a story like that would just knock a candidate out.

CUPP: Right.

LIZZA: And, you know, nothing has really done it. And now I think we're in this third or fourth phase here where it's about old Joe, right, and age is suddenly being raised.

So I understand why they think it's -- you know, they're gloating -- the context of quote was a bit gloating that they've been hitting him hard and he's still standing.

CUPP: Well, his advisers also told you that the media is younger and, quote, woker than the general public. So we don't get Biden's appeal and that this affects the coverage. Do you buy that?

LIZZA: This is the argument that I think is interesting and it's a very interesting debate. And I've talked to a lot of young reporters who, frankly, took exception to that since the piece came out.

They believe that there is a younger, more culturally liberal press corps covering them that doesn't quite understand the Democratic electorate and especially the Biden voter, which tends to be older, more working class and, frankly, more likely to be a person of color, right? That's his coalition.

And so they complain a little bit that the press is obsessed with the younger, hipper Democrats, AOC, and that they just think that Biden is hopelessly uncool and they would like to explain some of the problems he's having with that sort of collision between Joe Biden and, you know, woke millennials, in their phrase.

Now, do I think that's all true? No, but I do think there's something to it. I do think there's something to it, S.E.

CUPP: Well, it's really -- it's really interesting to think about.

Forgetting the history of women who have been subjected to terrible press treatment, there is another guy who regularly gets it pretty bad, Donald Trump. Is Biden suggesting or Biden's team suggesting that he's treated worse or subjected to more scrutiny than Trump? And I would say, you know, he deserves it, of course, but, I mean, Donald Trump takes a pounding in the press pretty regularly.

LIZZA: That's a great question. And to be totally honest, I didn't push them very hard on this.

CUPP: Yes.

LIZZA: Look, everyone always complains about the press. A lot of people ask if they're doing so well, why were they complaining to me about the press. And I don't think it was strategic.

[18:20:00]

I was having some long background conversations with a couple of advisers going over a lot of different issues and this is one that -- that came up.

So I wouldn't think of this piece as a -- the Biden people calling this reporter to bash the press. It's something that was ferreted out in the course of reporting, not some new strategy, you know, to attack the press.

But, look, your point is correct, S.E., you can find examples of candidates, especially female candidates who have -- who had a tougher time than Joe Biden.

I think in the campaign -- yes.

CUPP: Yes, and male candidates. I mean, Mitt Romney was treated terribly by some folks in the press, by some outlets. I mean, this is part of politics. I just never think complaining about the press is a good look.

LIZZA: Here's a question, and I don't know the answer, and I really think a content analysis of this campaign would be really interesting to see which Democrat has received the most negative press, because they will argue and, you know, I'm not sure about this, but -- CUPP: I mean, Sanders insists it's him.

LIZZA: But what about Warren? I think Warren has -- after her initial -- I think when she started the campaign, she got hit very, very hard with this whole controversy about her relationship with the Native American community and her heritage.

The last couple of months, I think, that, you know, there's a conventional wisdom among us in the press corps, I think, that she's had an easier ride and that, as she rises, that's going to end. That is definitely the view of the Biden people.

CUPP: Right.

LIZZA: And then part of this is working the refs, you know, telling us in the press corps, oh, she's had it so easy so we feel a little guilty, but I think there's something to that. Warren has -- you know, she's, you know -- I think her -- she hasn't gone through a cycle in quite a while of really, really negative --

CUPP: It's coming, I can promise.

LIZZA: It's -- of course it's coming. But she's rising.

CUPP: She's doing well. It's coming. Yes.

LIZZA: Yes.

CUPP: Ryan Lizza, always good to have you on. Thank you so much.

LIZZA: Thanks, S.E. See you soon.

CUPP: OK. Job, jobs, jobs. That's what the president tweeted just this summer thinking it would be key to his re-election. Well, that's not working out lately.

So, new word, turnout, turnout, turnout. I'll dive into that strategy.

And are we doing impeachment? Is this the thing that starts next week? It depends who you ask. I'll ask a Democratic lawmaker for her answer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

CUPP: Yes. Monday, the president will be making his first trip to New Mexico since taking office to hold a re-election rally. Why? He wants to turn it red.

But this week proved there are some serious warning signs on his road to remaining in the White House. His approval rating in an ABC News/Washington Post poll fell from a career high 44 percent in July to 38 percent this week. That drop may be largely due to the fact that 60 percent of Americans say a recession over the next year is likely. And a new CNN poll found that six in ten Americans say Trump does not deserve a second term.

But the news this week was not all bad. the Republican win in the special election in North Carolina's ninth district showed how the president's strategy of whipping up the base instead of expanding it could actually work.

The president's election eve rally on the more rural eastern (ph) edge of the district in North Carolina was key, got results. Democrat Dan McCready won the surrounding county last year if the first go round in this election. But this week, it was the Republican, Dan Bishop, who is now a congressman.

So to triple down on the base strategy, the campaign is rolling out a social network app reportedly sometime this fall complete with prizes to mobilize the, quote, army of Trump. That sounds ominous.

OK. With me now, Republican Strategist and CNN Political Commentator Alice Stewart and Democratic Strategist, Basil Smikle.

Basil, I was so intrigued by this trip to New Mexico this week. It's a blue state. He didn't win it. Republicans are actually concerned he won't keep some of the states he did win last time. Is this actually maybe an example of him trying to expand the base?

BASIL SMIKLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: He thinks he can. We saw him talk to HBCUs the other day.

CUPP: Yes.

SMIKLE: So I think he thinks he can do that, but much of his language and his activity prior to this suggests that, no, he wants to double down on his base.

A typical president in a typical presidency, we would expect someone to expand. He can certainly do that with gun control, for example, to move beyond his base, move to the middle a little bit, but you don't really see that happening based on most of his other actions.

So my guess is he will double down on his base. He thinks that's enough to win and he thinks Democrats won't do enough to actually pull out some of the votes in like suburban counties and such.

So, you know, for him, I think it's a calculation that I don't know if he's making it in terms of like deep strategy, but it feels comfortable for him.

CUPP: Well, Alice, let's talk about suburban voters because look at what happened in North Carolina. That was a narrow win for Bishop. And, in fact, what should be concerning is the fact that Bishop lost in the Charlotte suburbs that Trump won in 2016, Charlotte suburbs, by the way, where Bishop is from. So should Republicans be concerned about suburban voters?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So much is being made about this North Carolina races. First of all, there were two of them, both Republicans won. And, unfortunately, many of the left, many people are saying, even though we won, it's still a loss.

CUPP: Right. a win is a win.

STEWART: Trump came in the night before, rallied the troops, got them energized, and he did so in large part by following the same playbook that both of the candidates did, by reminding voters in North Carolina what the Democratic Party stands for, talking about the squad, talking about the Green New Deal, talking about the policies that many of those running for president are running for, and that does not work for North Carolina and it's not going to work.

As Senator Bayh mentioned earlier, the 40 percent of moderates in the general election are the key and that's where the president needs to put his focus, and whoever the eventual Democratic nominee, you need to focus on that 40 percent moderate vote. And if the Democratic Party is going to go so far left, as they are with Green New Deal, Medicare for all, free college tuition, that's not going to work for that key voting bloc.

SMIKLE: Though I would add that there's a lot of research now that suggests that the country actually wants some version of the Affordable Care Act.

[18:30:00]

They like the Affordable Care Act, thinks it could be better and want Democrats to actually improve on that. In a typical presidency when we talk about the President's relationship to the economy, what I think is also interesting is another report that said 22 states have actually lost manufacturing jobs in the last few years.

And what that says to me is that even though Trump's base I think voted more for culture than the economy it does leave an opening for Democrats to talk about what has it happened under the Trump administration, all of these policies about bringing jobs back that have gone unfulfilled so I do think there's an openness.

STEWART: But I think a 3.7 percent unemployment, the wage growth at 3.2 percent and the labor participation rate at a good rate, those are the kind of numbers that are concrete, have not moved. In fact, they're getting better. The African-American unemployment rate is strong and if those numbers continue, those are the kind of factors that make an impact on voters if they're voting on the economy.

CUPP: I want to show you guys a clip. As the Democrats were debating on Thursday, President Trump was speaking at the Republican retreat in Baltimore. Here's one of the things he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I hit Pocahontas way too early. I thought she was gone. She's emerged from the ashes and now it looks like she could beat Sleepy Joe. He's falling asleep. He has no idea what the hell he's doing or saying.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CUPP: I mean Trump hasn't even gone full Trump yet on a lot of these

candidates. This is nothing.

SMIKLE: Right.

CUPP: Do you worry maybe that Democrats are not prepared for what is coming? I mean Elizabeth Warren is going to get a lot of incoming.

SMIKLE: Well, you saw there was a moment when, I forget who it was, but one of the candidate said, "Hey, we shouldn't be arguing with each other." And somebody else was like, "But this is a Democratic primary. This is the President."

CUPP: Yes.

SMIKLE: And I think that's really the important takeaway that somebody needs to remind these candidates if they don't have it in their head already that what they've experienced now not only will get worse in the context of the primary ...

CUPP: Right.

SMIKLE: ... but it's going to get worse when they face Donald Trump.

CUPP: Way worse.

SMIKLE: Absolutely right.

STEWART: But that's what Obama has warned against ...

SMIKLE: Absolutely.

STEWART: ... do not engage in a circular firing squad which often does happen in the primary. But the key is, yes, vigorous primaries are important for elections and it makes every candidate stronger.

CUPP: Yes.

STEWART: But it should focus on policy contrasts and not get personal and it did get personal, because they know when they get ...

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: But Trump is going to get personal.

SMIKLE: But he is going to get ...

CUPP: Trump is going to get so personal, so much more personal than any of these guys.

SMIKLE: That's absolutely right.

CUPP: And I just don't think they're ready.

SMIKLE: He spends a lot of time talking about policy.

CUPP: Yes.

SMIKLE: How much time we talk about health care.

CUPP: Right. Right.

SMIKLE: The nuances of it point one thing, but we spent a lot of time talking about policy in that last debate. So we'll continue to do that, but it's going to get worse. It's going to get worse.

CUPP: Oh, boy. All right. Alice Stewart, Basil Smikle, thank you so much for spending time with me tonight. OK. Aggressive hearings or an impeachment inquiry, I don't know. It depends on whom you ask and that's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:36:41]

CUPP: In THE READ FILE tonight, an impeachment inquiry is underway or is it? Is it? I don't know, it depends on whom you ask. This coming week, House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler will begin what he calls aggressive hearings. This comes after his committee along party lines approved a resolution outlining the rules of an impeachment investigation on Thursday.

So what exactly does that mean? I'm not actually sure. Nadler says, well, it doesn't matter what we call it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY): Some call this process an impeachment inquiry, some call it an impeachment investigation. There's no legal difference between these terms and I no longer care to argue about nomenclature.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Still confused? Here's Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi to clear it all up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Impeachment is a very divisive measure, but if we have to go there, we'll have to go there. But we can't go there unless we have the facts and we will follow the facts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Is this real life? I don't know. Maybe my next guest can help me understand exactly what's going on. With me now is Pennsylvania freshman Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan. Welcome, Congressman. I don't know. It feels like Democrats, call me cynical, are trying to split the baby, get all of the benefits of an impeachment process with none of the bad consequences.

REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): Hi. And thank you so much for having me.

CUPP: Sure.

HOULAHAN: I think I agree with the Chairman. It doesn't, to me, matter a whole lot whether it's an investigation, a proceeding, an inquiry. By speaking with the Chairman, which I have personally and individually, my understanding is it is full steam ahead in the Judiciary Committee to find the truth and that I am very much in support of. It's absolutely the job of the judiciary to do that.

CUPP: Yes.

HOULAHAN: And you do need to get to the truth as fast as possible.

CUPP: But for someone like you who's expressed some caution about impeachment and I would be cautious too, isn't all of the impeachment talk and threats of impeachment and hearings basically doing the exact kind of damage that a real impeachment would, the kind of damage that some people are really worried about.

HOULAHAN: So I guess I would say no, I believe that we are proceeding with caution. I think that this is the appropriate process and step to take. I think the judiciary committee has in its purview the role of oversight in an investigation and I think they're doing their job.

I think what's also really important is that the rest of the House, the rest of the body is also doing its job, my job. And so throughout the last eight months of my freshman year as an example, we've passed more than 400 bills. We've also seen that only about 50 of those bills have actually made it to the Senate and then onward to the President for his signature.

CUPP: Yes.

HOULAHAN: So I believe those bills have ranged from gun issues to health care issues to women's safety to family leave. The body, the House has been very, very busy doing its job and oversight is one of those.

CUPP: Right. So you've said your position on impeachment could shift. What would change your minds? What would put you solidly in the impeach category. So I think I am one of the people in Congress who is not a lawyer, there are not very many of us. I'm an engineer and so I'm very deliberate about the ways that I think about things.

I think it would be the facts and the best understanding that was given to me about my process, my decision process is it's my job as a Member of the House to develop the evidence, to develop irrefutable evidence, if it exists, to move to articles of impeachment.

[18:40:04]

And then it's my job, our job to move that evidence forward to the Senate for them to do what amounts to the analog, the analogy of a trial and if necessary, sentencing as well. And so until we get to that place where I feel as though we have that body of evidence that's irrefutable, I need to see more. I need to learn more.

CUPP: So what are you expecting or hoping to learn this week from Corey Lewandowski?

HOULAHAN: So my understanding from speaking with the Chair, both as an individual and also as a freshman class is that Corey Lewandowski's testimony will be just one of a number of different hearings that will proceed to happen over the next weeks and months.

CUPP: Right.

HOULAHAN: As well, we expect the results of four different court hearing, court cases to come back in addition and so I think that the body of evidence will be what I will be looking for. No single smoking gun or single statement is necessarily what I'm looking for, but the whole body of the evidence.

CUPP: Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan, thanks for your time tonight. Also, thanks for your service.

HOULAHAN: You're very welcome. I appreciate it. Have a nice evening.

CUPP: You too. OK, the White House is expected to release its gun reform proposals this week. Six weeks after El Paso and Dayton, and two weeks after Midland-Odessa. What is that lack of urgency portent? That's next.

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[18:45:34]

CUPP: According to new reporting from The Washington Post, the White House is going to rule out its gun violence prevention plan next despite a lack of clarity on the issue from the President himself. Thursday, the President spoke with Senators Chris Murphy, Pat Toomey and Joe Manchin about their background check proposal. But over the past few weeks he's waffled on whether he'll support them.

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says he won't bring any legislation to the floor unless the President supports it. Well, I don't blame him. Then, came the debate bombshell from former Texas Congressman Beto O'Rourke saying, "Hell yes," he is going to take assault weapons, prompting frustration among Democratic law makers on Capitol Hill who fear that that kind of talk is not productive in their negotiating process. So what will the President do? It's anybody's guess.

With me now is Evan McMullin who launched an independent third party run in 2016. Evan, I like you, am a gun owner and a defender of the Second Amendment, but I, like you, and I think a majority of gun owners believe, expanding background checks just makes sense. I've covered the debate over guns for years and I've never seen this many elected Republicans and conservative thought leaders say, "Yes, we have to stop being absolute assunguns (ph).

Does it feel like this might be a time where some discreet measures could get passed?

EVAN MCMULLIN (I), 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It has started to feel that way with the recent spade of mass shootings and with more and more Republican's voters getting onboard with some common sense gun law reforms and more elective leaders reflecting that support. It has seem that there has been some growing momentum.

CUPP: Yes.

MCMULLIN: I will say though as you know, S.E., as a gun owner that for the longest time opponents of basic gun law reforms, common sense reforms have said, "Well, listen, we can't accept any of these reforms even if they may seem common sense, because the Democrats and those who oppose our Second Amendment rights they actually just want to take our guns." These are just Trojan horse reforms.

And many Democrats have said, "No, that's not true." And I think sincerely many of them saying this is not what we want to do, but this week during the Democratic primary debate where Beto O'Rourke says, "Yes, we're coming for your guns." I think that validated all of that sort of fear mongering, scare mongering among proponents of or opponents of gun reform, these slippery slope arguments.

So now as the President and others are trying to negotiate potential reforms, I think it makes it a lot more difficult now for those things to get done because of what we heard, unfortunately, from Beto this week.

CUPP: Yes. And I was talking to someone about this earlier. Everything he said about AR-15s and before that point was, I thought he was making a good argument if you're on the side of gun confiscation, if you're on that side. I think just yelling at the camera, "Hell, yes, I'm taking your guns," just made it a little too easy for Republicans to make that a talking point.

We'll see if they use it effectively. I could sense Chris Coons' frustration as he was talking about Beto's line. In the midst of these very tenuous, fragile negotiations over guns.

MCMULLIN: That's right. And I would predict that we're going to see this see, the issue of gun laws and reforms to our laws be even more of a campaign issue now that Beto said what he said.

CUPP: Well, he laid that all (ph) down.

MCMULLIN: He did, but it's complicated for the President though, because on one hand he's going to be able to play what Beto and what a couple of other Democratic primary contenders have said about confiscating guns, mandatory confiscations, mandatory buybacks. He's going to be able to play that to his rural voters and for many of them, it's going to help mobilize those voters and that's important for the President. I mean, it's critical for him, especially in key swing states.

Where it gets complicated though I think is that in the suburbs where the President is hemorrhaging support now going back his approval rating sinking to his all time low or near at now again, I think people are starting to lose faith or have long lost faith but increasingly in his ability to lead in the Republican Party's ability to lead under his leadership, under his stewardship.

[18:50:00]

And so he at the same time to not hemorrhage those votes needs to show that he can govern, needs to show that when 80 plus percent of Republicans and almost 90 percent of all Americans favor some common sense for responsible gun law reforms that he and that Republicans in Congress can actually govern.

CUPP: Well, Evan, stay there because I want to contrast this issue of guns to another issue that's currently happening, a fight over it on The Hill, so stay right there, we'll be back in a second.

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[18:54:30]

CUPP: I'm back with Evan McMullin, Executive Director of Stand Up Republic. Evan, I think it's interesting to contrast the fight over guns that's currently happening with another that's happening on The Hill, vaping.

Trump announced this week that he will move to ban flavored e- cigarettes which angered a lot of conservatives and even Trump supporters who don't support that kind of regulation. Now, he since given himself a little wiggle room.

But in the face of evidence that these are dangerous for kids, is this kind of conservative absolutism the same kind we see over guns, is that dangerous?

MCMULLIN: Yes. I mean, there are a couple of things happening here. There's a recent increase in lung illnesses and even several deaths that are being tied to e-cigarettes. It's unclear, actually, what the causes are. And then there's an increase in youth using e-cigarettes. And I think those are separate issues but connected because a lot of the people getting sick are youth using these e-cigarettes.

But when the administration comes in and says, "Hey, we're going to ban flavored e-cigarettes because the youth are using them a lot." That makes me uncomfortable. I don't think that's a role for the government. I mean, for example, what would we say that - no, I don't use any of this and I wouldn't advise anyone too, I want to make that clear.

CUPP: Yes.

MCMULLIN: But would we say that we're going to ban certain flavors of alcohol because youth enjoy them before their legal age and where does it end? Do we next say we're going to ban certain brands of alcohol because they're popular among the youth?

I just don't think where the government should be. I think the government needs to do the investigations that it's doing at the state and federal level, figure out if there are additives in these e- cigarettes that need to be more heavily regulated or banned and deal with that and warn the people about the dangers, otherwise, and let them make their own decision.

CUPP: I got to go. Evan McMullin, thank you so much for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it.

MCMULLIN: Thank you.

CUPP: And that's it for me. Stick around for David Axelrod. He'll be talking to former Attorney General Erin Holder. "THE AXE FILES" are next.