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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Bush, Kerry to Debate Tonight; Interview With Ralph Nader
Aired September 30, 2004 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening from the University of Miami in Coral Gables, Florida. I'm Anderson Cooper.
It's the Bush-Kerry faceoff, part one, just two hours away.
360 starts now.
No more speculation, no more spin. Tonight, John Kerry and George Bush face off. Two expert debaters, head to head on Iraq, terror, and what they'd do to protect us all.
Bush and Kerry's last-minute planning, punches and counterpunches. Tonight, what you need to know about their strategies and what they have done right and wrong in past debates.
Ralph Nader, spoiler on savior? Not invited to debate, the presidential candidate joins us live for some tough talk about the candidates, the process, and what he hopes happens tonight.
And how much do you really know about your favorite candidate's stand on the issues? You might be surprised at how clueless some voters are. But don't worry, we're not talking about you.
ANNOUNCER: Live from the University of Miami, this is a special edition of ANDERSON COOPER 360.
COOPER: And good evening. Welcome to this special edition.
We are here at the University of Miami in Coral Gables for the first of three debates between the presidential contenders George Bush and John Kerry. The topic tonight, of course, foreign policy, and it's impossible to imagine that the events of the day in Iraq will not be topic number one.
In Iraq today, a very bad day indeed. Steel yourself for some grisly scenes. Forty-one people were killed in just two car bomb attacks, 34 of them children, gathered around U.S. soldiers who were just handing out candy at the opening of a sewage plant, certainly fodder for those who say things are getting worse there, not better.
At the same time, there's word now of an American offensive in Samarra, one of those cities that's in the Sunni triangle that has been a hotbed of insurgent activity over the last several months. U.S. troops and Iraqi national guard units are involved in what's described as the largest military action there in months.
Jane Arraf is with those troops and is now live with us on the phone. Jane, what's the latest?
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on phone): Anderson, we're here in the northwest of the city, next to the city council building and other buildings, include the mayor's office. U.S. forces and Iraqi national guard have taken, they're moving sector by sector through the city to secure it in what the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) calls the battle for Samarra.
This is a huge operation, Anderson, it's a brigade-sized operation. They've sent in tanks, air support. It's a very eerie feeling here, it's completely dark. They have cut off power to this side of the city. And around us there's what sounds like thunder, but are actually mortars as well as rocket-propelled grenades being launched, and what was just a little while ago, quite heavy fire coming from here.
They are taking the city sector by sector to regain control from what they say may be 2,000 insurgents.
COOPER: Jane, behind you, I think I'm hearing some sort of explosions or shots firing. What is that?
ARRAF: That sounds like what we've been hearing is machine gunfire. There has been extensive contact, it seems, in this part of town with the insurgents, as well as air strikes. They have been launching air strikes as well. We're now hearing what sounds like either F-15s or F-16s.
This is the first major operation they have launched. The city had been off limits to them until they moved in three weeks ago, dissolving an agreement they had with the city not to do patrols here, Anderson.
COOPER: Jane, stay safe. We'll check in with you a little bit later on.
It's hard to imagine that we're not going to hear some reference to all of this in the evening ahead, an evening that promises to be perhaps the most important showdown between President Bush and Senator Kerry.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Hours to go, sweaty palms time. After months of stump speeches about each other, Bush and Kerry tonight they go face to face. The subject matter, foreign policy. Expect lots of talk about Iraq.
For the president, a chance to discuss his decision to go to war, to call his opponent's votes on the war flip-flops. For the challenger, an opportunity to pin the problems with the war squarely on the president's shoulders and explain how he would do things differently.
On both sides, the press spin, that's what it is, after all. Ceaseless talk about something that hasn't even happened yet has been dizzying. Yesterday, the Kerry folk sent out a prebuttal, a counter to an argument that hadn't even been made yet. There's been endless handicapping. Kerry was a champion debater in school. The president is seasoned now, and a master of staying on message.
But with the president ahead in the polls, Kerry needs a stronger performance. Everyone will be watching to see if either candidate can land the knockout blow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Bush and Kerry, of course, have been ratcheting up the rhetoric for months now. And while the barbs have at times felt very personal, they've never been actually in person. That all changes, of course, right here tonight. They're going to shake hands at 9:02 this evening, the only time they're supposed to actually touch. And after that, expect the gloves to come off.
What will they say? What should they say?
Joining me are the "CROSSFIRE" guys, Paul Begala and Bob Novak.
These debate rules have been very tightly negotiated, 32 pages of rules. Does it favor one candidate over the other?
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Clearly favors Bush. The Kerry campaign got the one big thing they wanted, which is three debates instead of two. I frankly didn't think they'd get them. But the president was gracious. Bill Clinton only gave Bob Dole two debates. So Bush is being more gracious than (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
COOPER: So the Kerry camp basically said, OK, well, you gave us three debates, we'll give you...
BEGALA: Anything else you want. And they wanted a lot. They have stacked the order in their favor. The president's strength is foreign policy. They're...
COOPER: Because this debate, the first debate, will be the most watched?
BEGALA: Be the most watched, and could set the tone for the rest of the debates and the rest of the campaign. So -- and all these technical rules, the bubble that creates the artificiality, Bush being a child of a president, is actually more comfortable in that bubble than any politician I've ever known. He likes the order and the structure and really, he thrives in the artificiality of it.
COOPER: Bob, do you buy that?
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": I (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I can't really disagree with anything that Paul said...
COOPER: Mark the date and time.
NOVAK: I do think that the watching John Kerry, I've watched him in debates for a number of years. I don't think he's a great debater. I think he's a very limited debater. His great triumph in the '96 reelection debate was on a very narrow canvas. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
COOPER: He's not a great debater because he's verbose?
NOVAK: He's verbose, he's not very inspiring. And we are at a point right today where it is not a toss-up election. There's no question that George W. Bush has a lead, not a big lead, but he has a lead, and so tonight, Senator Kerry has to do something big. He has to say, Boy, he really whacked him good.
The idea that he can, if he just stands up to him and is able to be in the same arena with him, he's going to have a victory, that's not true.
COOPER: But with these rules, Paul, I mean, can, can you do something big?
NOVAK: It's very difficult.
BEGALA: Very difficult. Debates are never won, they're lost. It's, and, but it's not a strategy, the Kerry campaign can't sit there and say, Gee, we hope Bush messes up, because he's unlikely to. He plays this like Chris Evert plays tennis. No unforced errors.
But (UNINTELLIGIBLE) slight disagreement with Bob in that I think Kerry does profit if he can just put the Bush effort in Iraq today on trial. I mean, one of the tactical things I'm going to look for is, Bush wins if the debate is about the past, Kerry's votes and quotes on the war, which are a tangled mess. They're impenetrable.
Kerry wins if the debate is about today and tomorrow, because Bush seems to be in this kind of denial fantasyland, where he says, Well, things are great, when they are plainly not, and he doesn't seem to have any idea how to get us out of it. So that'll be the debate, between the past and the present.
NOVAK: That's a total Kerry spin, and my agreement with my friend Begala has just come to a crashing end.
COOPER: Mark the date and time.
NOVAK: Yes. I think he has, Anderson, I think he, the Senator Kerry has two immense problems. The first problem he has is that he has a very sophisticated concept that going after Saddam Hussein and getting rid of this tyrant was a setback in the war on terror. Now, I'm not going to debate whether he's right or he's wrong, but it is almost impossible to make that argument to the general public in 30 minutes, much less two minutes.
The second problem is that he is -- he is a Massachusetts liberal, he's been voting against defense and intelligence all his life. And to say, I am the guy who can come in and win this war, he's out of character. He's in character saying, I'm going to do more for children and poor people and liberal journalists, and things like that.
COOPER: Liberal journalists. All right. Bob Novak, we're going to have to leave it there. Unfortunately, the liberal journalist, Paul Begala. Thanks. We'll check in with you guys a little bit later on.
We're at the student union. There's actually a security sweep going on behind us right now. Security very tight. This place was packed with hundreds of students a few minutes ago. The Secret Service and police are now checking it out for anything, and they kindly let us continue broadcasting, assuming that Begala over here wasn't too much of a security risk. We'll see about that. All right.
360 next, plus debate spin, counterspin, there's so much of it going on, you can get dizzy. We're going to try to cut through the hype with the campaign correspondents John King and Candy Crowley.
Also tonight, Ralph Nader crashing the party. He's been locked out of the debates, but he's joining us live, and you can bet he's got some strong words for the Republicans and Democrats.
And speaking for the candidates tonight, Don Evans and Madeleine Albright. We go 360 with them coming up as we continue live from the University of Miami.
First, a 360 debate challenge.
Which presidential candidate has the most debate appearances -- Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, or Ross Perot?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Which presidential candidate has the most debate appearances? The answer is George H.W. Bush, six, one vice presidential, five presidential.
The current President Bush, though, is on his way to tying his father's record. The latest "L.A. Times" national poll shows that Senator Kerry is trailing President Bush among registered voters by 4 percent points, and by 6 percentage points among likely voters. Other polls have him even further behind.
So what is the big finisher's plan?
CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley has that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After four days of debate prep, the key now is to look relaxed, ready, nonchalant about the stakes. And his strategists expect Kerry will be great, but they are pushing hard to dispel the notion that the senator, running behind, needs to change the tide now or never.
JOE LOCKHART, KERRY CAMPAIGN: There are three debates. There's still plenty of time here. This idea that somehow this is make or break is just silly.
CROWLEY: Still, state polls show Kerry struggling in many must- win states, and behind in red states the campaign once thought it could turn blue. So they know tonight is important.
LOCKHART: This is going to be a chance for John Kerry to stand next to the president and give the American public a chance to say, Does he have what it takes to be president? Does he have the strength and the wisdom and the judgment?
CROWLEY: Democrats outside the campaign say reversing the flip- flopper image and showing voters his likable side cannot be done in 90 minutes. But Kerry has to make a big start. Aides say the senator plans to answer any charges of inconsistent language or positions clearly and directly. The goal is to take the focus off of him and place it squarely on the president.
LOCKHART: He's going to be held accountable for his record tonight. And if he tries to duck and dive and slide, John Kerry's going to hold him accountable.
CROWLEY: Democrats say Kerry must enable viewers to see him in the role of wartime commander in chief. To that end, aides let it be known that the senator spoke this afternoon with one of his Vietnam buddies, who told Kerry to remember he'd, quote, "been under heavier fire before."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: One of the byproducts of this debate for John Kerry is that it's being held in Florida, a state that he has been kind of blocked out of by so many hurricanes and bad weather. He intends to take full advantage of that. There will, of course, be a post-debate rally here, but then he will also move through the state today, tomorrow and into Saturday in an attempt to make up for some of that lost time, Anderson.
COOPER: Candy Crowley, thanks very much. We'll check in with you later.
We're going to check out now what the president's day was like leading up to this big night. CNN senior White House correspondent John King has details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Offering comfort to hurricane victims in Florida, a predebate display of the benefits of incumbency.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've asked Congress to provide $12.2 billion in federal funds to respond to these storms.
KING: But in Iraq, more deadly violence, more vivid evidence the president enters the first debate carrying the burdens of incumbency as well.
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: His great danger is to have either an arrogance about this or to have a dismissive quality toward Kerry's arguments. Kerry is giving voice to a lot of the doubts and qualms people have about Iraq.
KING: The president's aides promise a forceful defense of his Iraq policy. Look for Mr. Bush to acknowledge setbacks and hardship but talk optimistically about Iraq's prospects. And look for him to repeatedly contrast his leadership style with an opponent Mr. Bush says has few core convictions.
KAREN HUGHES, BUSH CAMPAIGN ADVISER: I know at the end of this debate, one thing will be clear, where President Bush stands. I don't think you can say the same about Senator Kerry.
KING: The president enters the first of three debates with a slight edge in the polls and a clear advantage, at least so far, in one barometer of presidential politics.
GERGEN: Bush, frankly, I think, goes in with a lot of advantages against Kerry on style, because he is -- he, he wears well with voters, he's emotionally more appealing. Kerry tends to be more cerebral. Bush is not.
KING: Democrats all but concede Mr. Bush has a more engaging personality. They're banking substance matters more than style this time.
JOHN PODESTA, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: That backyard barbecue question, I think, is less relevant to people right now. They want somebody who's going to get the country on a different track and lead the country to a safer, more secure place.
KING: The campaign war rooms will try to shape media coverage even as they candidates speak. And team Bush's favorite themes come as no surprise.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Now, aides say it's critical that the president explains and defends his Iraq policy, that he not get angry, so in mock debate sessions, they peppered him with harshly critical questions to test whether Mr. Bush could keep his temper in check, Anderson.
COOPER: One of the many things we'll watch for tonight. John King, thanks.
Today's buzz question is this, what do you think? Will the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), who will, who do you think will influence the elections more, or what do you think, the debate itself, the post- debate campaign spin, or the post-debate media spin? Log onto CNN.com/360, cast your vote. We'll have results at the end of the program tonight.
Coming up next on 360, he has John Kerry playing defense. The question is, will President Bush be able to hold his own one on one? Secretary Don Evans joins us live to answer some tough questions about Iraq, the president's apparent optimism, and whether he's ignoring facts on the ground. Also tonight, Ralph Nader crashing the party. They wouldn't let him in the debates, but he is here, and he's going to join us live. We are live from the University of Miami.
And now, another 360 debate challenge. How many times did Al Gore audibly sigh during his first debate with George W. Bush? Was it two times, five times, 12 times, or 18 times?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: How many times did Al Gore audibly sigh during his first debate with George W. Bush? Eighteen times.
Probably won't hear too many sighs from either candidate tonight.
President Bush isn't really expected to change his style or substance for tonight debate. Probably a reasonable strategy, since he's ahead in the polls. But how will his optimism on Iraq play on a day when dozens of children were killed by a car bomb?
Representing the Bush campaign tonight, Commerce Secretary Don Evans.
Mr. Secretary, thanks very much for being with us tonight.
I want to ask you, President Bush has been optimistic about Iraq on the campaign trail of late, and yet now there's this quote out from Dick Cheney, then defense secretary 12 years ago, saying that the U.S. doesn't want to get bogged down in trying to govern and take over Iraq. By that definition, are we bogged down now in Iraq?
DON EVANS, SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: No, Anderson, we're not. I mean, the president is optimistic about Iraq and continuing to move that country toward democracy and giving that, those 25 million people the liberties that they deserve. And the president is optimistic about America. I mean, he's confident in America, he's confident in the American people.
And so that optimism is really part of his leadership, and, but no, we're not bogged down in Iraq, and we'll continue to move toward elections in January, and confident we'll have elections in January. The power has been transferred to the Iraqi people, and so, you know, yes, there are challenges there, but certainly not bogged down. Clearly have a strategy to continue to move toward democracy, full democracy in Iraq.
COOPER: You now have some prominent Republicans coming forward, Senator (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Senator McCain called it a "serious mistake not to have had enough troops," Senator Hagel said we're deep in trouble, "We're in deep trouble, I don't think we are winning." Those quotes are very possibly going to come up tonight. How will the president respond to that? I mean, he concerned about defections or concern within his own party?
EVANS: Listen, the president has the same clear resolve that he delivered to the American people, he stated to the American people on September 20, 2001. He will not waver, he will not tire until we win the war against terrorism. And this is part of that war against terrorism.
He fully understands that there will be challenges along the way and that we have some challenges now. But now is the time to continue to persevere, now is the time to be steady and focused and remain disciplined on the plan that the president is leading on to win the war against terrorism.
It's not to say that we won't have challenges and -- along the way, and it's appropriate for others to talk about some of the challenges of the moment. But the president is focused on victory and winning, and delivering to the American people their security and safety and liberty, make sure that this country is a safe and secure nation for all the American people.
COOPER: And no doubt we'll hear a lot of that tonight. Secretary of Commerce Don Evans, appreciate you joining us. Thanks very much.
EVANS: Thank you.
COOPER: Unlike some (UNINTELLIGIBLE) programs, we don't take sides here on 360. We try to bring you all the angles. Coming up later this hour, Kerry adviser and former secretary of state Madeleine Albright answers tough questions on Iraq, on what, if anything, her candidate would do differently. That's coming up later on 360.
By now, the candidates' faces and their names are certainly familiar, but how well do you really know their positions? I mean, you'd think we'd know the presidential candidates by now. But the truth is, a lot of folks are kind of clueless. And don't worry, we're not actually talking about you, of course.
Here's senior analyst Jeff Greenfield.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): So you're planning to spend 90 minutes watching the candidates debate tonight? Millions of you say this is going to help you decide who you are for.
But, you know, they have been at this for months, years even. And one of the really curious things about you -- well, not you, of course, but people you know and work with and maybe live with -- is that they don't have much of a clue about where Bush and Kerry stand on some key issues.
The Annenberg election survey, released yesterday, found what can only be called massive cluelessness among a whole lot of you. Sorry, not you. For instance, 66 percent say they favor wiping out the estate tax or the death tax, as opponents call it. President Bush is a big-time supporter of repeal.
BUSH: They need to put the stake in the heart of the death tax forever.
GREENFIELD: But only 40 percent say they agree with Bush on this issue. Do the math. It's really simple. More than a quarter of the voters don't know that Bush agrees with them. Well, it must be the liberal media, right? Wrong. The same thing happens with one of Senator Kerry's big issues, reimporting prescription drugs from Canada. Seventy-four percent say they're in favor of bringing these drugs back home, but barely half say they agree with Kerry on this issue.
The gap is almost as big between those who say they want to shift tax breaks to create jobs back in the U.S.A., and those who say they agree with Kerry, who happens to hold exactly the same position.
Now, it's not an entirely bleak picture. Voters are pretty close to the mark on the candidates' positions on abortion, or making the tax cuts permanent. But the gap is big enough on enough issues to start pointing fingers in all directions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: Right. Now, some of the blame goes to the campaigns for spending so much time attacking the other guy. And some of it falls on us, the media -- well, not us, of course, but people we know and work with, for pushing sizzle over substance.
But ask yourself, friends, or people you know and work with, how much time do you spend watching "American Idol," "Fear Factor," "The Apprentice," "Extreme Makeover," "Who Wants to Marry My Dad's Lover"? Now, how much time have you spent watching C-SPAN 1, 2, and 3 combined?
Anderson, case closed.
COOPER: Uh, oh, yikes, I'm not sure I want to answer that question. Yes, he had. Did you mention "The Apprentice" also? The, what is it, though, I mean, do voters really vote on particular issues like that, or is it more a sense of someone they like, someone they feel they know the character of?
GREENFIELD: Some voters vote, bullet vote on one key issue, but you're quite right, for others it's a general impression. The problem that I was somewhat tongue-in-cheek pointing to is, some people think they know what they're voting for, like the lady who said she was going to vote against Barry Goldwater because he wanted to sell her a TV. And it turned out she meant the Tennessee Valley Authority, the public (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But she said, I'm not taking any chances.
They get to vote the same way you and I do, and the same way our smart, well-informed listeners do.
COOPER: That's what makes America great.
GREENFIELD: OK.
COOPER: Jeff Greenfield, thanks very much. Coming up next on 360, Ralph Nader's party, he's unscripted and off message, and he's joining us live to sound off on the GOP and the Democrats.
Plus, former secretary of state Madeleine Albright on Kerry's message. Does he have what it takes to come out on top tonight?
Debate is getting near. We'll have a lot more from Miami ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And welcome back to this special edition of 360 at the University of Miami in Coral Gables, Florida.
We've been talking about and waiting for the first of three scheduled debates between the incumbent president, George Bush, and his Democratic challenger, Senator John Kerry, scheduled to begin about 90 minutes from now. It will be a very exciting evening.
With me here is my CNN colleague Wolf Blitzer. Also joining me from the debate hall is Judy Woodruff.
Wolf, let me start off with you. What are you anticipating tonight? What are you going to be looking for as a viewer?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm going to be looking, obviously, for, because I'm specifically interested in factual errors that one of the candidates or both of the candidates might make. And I want, I want to be precise, I want our viewers to be precise. And if we hear false statements or exaggerations, I want to make sure that we're on top of that.
COOPER: Because there've been false statements in past debates a lot.
BLITZER: Oh, sure, and I think we owe it to our viewers to make sure that we're on top of it, and our experts. And we're going to have fact-checkers looking at all the specific issues to make sure that if there are exaggerations or even outright falsehoods that are made, that we point that out to our viewers.
COOPER: Important thing. A lot of spin, a lot of misuse of facts over the last several months. Judy, how about you? What are you going to be looking for as a viewer? As a reporter?
JUDY WOODRUFF, HOST, "JUDY WOODRUFF'S INSIDE POLITICS": Well, I expect that they're going to be on top of the facts. You know, they've been cramming for days. I think what I'm looking for, Anderson, is the chemistry. They're going to be eight or ten feet apart, and you can see the stage behind me, but how will they react to each other? Are there going to be any of the smirks that President Bush was criticized for? We're told he's been working not to do that. Is John Kerry going to be warmer than what we have seen out on the trail? American people are looking, again, to see is this somebody I want to look at on my television screen for the next four years. In the case of George Bush, reelect him, but in the case of John Kerry, he still hasn't made the sale.
COOPER: Wolf, we know that from polls, we know that just from the human beings, that people want to elect people who they like, who they feel they're personable with.
BLITZER: I think that's a very important moment right now for John Kerry, to come across a little warmer, not stiff, and to speak in a way that people can understand, not get into the nuance. It's hard, because he's a senator, he spent 20 years on the Senate foreign relations committee. It will be hard for him to condense in two minutes or a minute 30 sometimes nuances and complicated thoughts, but he's been practicing that. If he wants to succeed tonight and come across as a plain-spoken but smart guy, that's what he has to do.
COOPER: All right. We'll be watching. Wolf Blitzer, Judy Woodruff, thanks very much.
Not every candidate who is running for president will be on the stage. Tonight no invites were sent out to the libertarians, socialists or natural law candidates and don't expect to see anyone from the constitution party either but noticeably absent is a candidate who may play a large role in this year's election. Some Democrats say he cost Al Gore the presidency four years ago. He disagrees with that.
Independent candidate Ralph Nader may not be seen on state, but he is here inside the building figuratively speaking, joining me now.
Mr. Nader, nice to see you. In the most recent polls you get anywhere from 2 percent to 3 percent support. With those kinds of numbers, why do you think you deserve to be in this debate?
RALPH NADER (I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, 5 percent in a "TIME" magazine poll, for example, but I deserve to be in the debate, because 57 percent of the American people in the Zogby poll just out want me on the debate. And that was true in the year 2000.
COOPER: A lot of those people are Republicans though and there are those who say they want you there, because it divides the votes away from debates.
NADER: Republicans are people, too. The fact is that 57 percent want me on the debates and these parties think they own the voters, they don't give them enough voices and choices, it's really not very democratic. They control the debate commission, the private corporation, and the two parties decide they don't want any competition. If they were in the business community, they would be convicted of antitrust violations.
COOPER: But you know there are people who say you've had an extraordinary career, you've done so much for Americans, for people around the world, why continue this when you don't have a real shot at winning, and there are those who say you'll take votes away from their candidate?
NADER: Because we've lost our government. Our government is corporate-occupied territory. Every department and agency is controlled by big business and the two parties are basically proxies. Just ask yourself, in the 19th century, none of these third parties ever won, but they pioneered the way against slavery, for women's right to vote, for the right of workers to form trade unions, for the farmer progressives...
COOPER: So it's not just about (UNINTELLIGIBLE), it's a larger point you're trying to make. It's the future.
NADER: It's called freedom, liberty, democracy, more voices and choices. That's what it is. These two parties are closing out the voters, half of them don't even vote. The audience for the debates have been going down, it's now under 40 million, and they have an arrogance that's incredible. Not even the courtesy to invite the presidential candidates and the third-party Independents to have seats in the auditorium.
COOPER: Where are you going to watch the debate tonight?
NADER: I'm watching here in the student center.
COOPER: What are you going to be watching for? What are you going to be listening for?
NADER: I'm going to be listening to whether they're willing to debate the Israeli/Palestinian conflict or they're on the same page, whether they're willing to debate global arms control, whether they're on the same page, whether they're going to debate the U.S. traditional support of dictators and olygarchs which are causing us real security problems, never mind what they're doing to the workers and the peasants, whether we're going to see the global assault on infectious diseases. "The New York Times" now is warning of a potential influenza pandemic from China and Thailand and whether we'll see a real attention to global environment. The planet is getting overloaded. It's not just climate change, greenhouse effect, right down to the oceans, the rivers...
COOPER: As you know, the debate tonight is largely on foreign policy, on Iraq, on the war on terror.
NADER: Yes.
COOPER: Do you think there really is any difference between those two candidates on these issues?
NADER: Very small. As a matter of fact, what "The New York Times" says, the page one article, remarking how similar the positions are on foreign policy. Both of them won't touch the bloated military budget, which has taken 50 percent out of the federal government's operating expenditures, and there's no more Soviet Union. Listen, you want a weapon of mass destruction, you want to see really terrorism, talk about viral and microbiological assaults heading this way from other parts of the world.
COOPER: Do you think one person will win tonight? Do you think there can be a winner? NADER: No, because there's 32 pages of rules. And most of them from the Republicans who don't like over-regulation. They have boxed in these two candidates in corsets and straitjackets that don't even bring the best and worst out of them. They take the spontaneity out...
COOPER: No direct questions one to another, no touching, no...
NADER: It's all scripted. And this is why it's very tedious. The American people deserve presidential debates that do not serve to be a cure for insomnia. They deserve a debate -- this is the big issue -- too much corporate power. This is the big issue. Too much corporate power. If "Businessweek" can say there's too much corporate power, and something has to be done about it, why don't the two parties show as much courage.
COOPER: You made very strong allegations against the Democrats, you said, they have intimidated people from signing your petitions to get you on the ballot. Do you actually have proof of that?
NADER: Tremendous. Phony lawsuits. We beat them about seven out of nine state supreme court decisions including here in Florida.
COOPER: The (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
NADER: No, no, they have hoards of lawyers, phony lawsuits, intimidation, harassment. We're documenting it all over the country. It's very antidemocratic for the Democratic party to do this and they're alienating the American people's sense of fair play. They're coming across as heavies, as Goliath, they're not very smart strategically. They should be registering 9 million African-American voters, 90 percent of them vote Democrat. They're not doing that. They should be going after the 10 times more Democratic voters who deserted Gore for Bush. They're not doing that.
COOPER: And you're in this race until the end?
NADER: We're in this race beyond November 2. We have to restore the sovereignty to people, make the big corporations our servants, not our masters, and take government back so that it responds to the necessities of the people.
COOPER: Ralph Nader, watching the debate on TV tonight, thanks very much.
NADER: And remember, VoteNader.org for more details.
COOPER: You came with props and a plug. Thanks very much.
For Bush and Kerry, the months of intense preparation comes down to this night. Their first debate, perhaps the most critical. Now, if history suggests anything, it's that both men are very skilled debaters, but who will appeal more to voters? It boils down to substance and style in the heat of raw politics. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COOPER (voice-over): John Kerry is a very effective formal debater. His delivery polished, his rhetoric impeccable.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: George Bush intends to make national security the key issue of this campaign. He has to. There's nothing else for him to run on.
COOPER: But his biggest strength, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) say, is his ability to turn attacks back at his opponents.
KERRY: The governor tries to take credit for the jobs, 250,000. He sounds like the rooster who's trying to take credit for the sunrise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry's main asset is his quickness and ability to maneuver effectively on his feet.
KERRY: I fought in a mistake called Vietnam. How are we going to have confidence that you're not going to vote in a war and peace issue for another mistake?
COOPER: Yet some experts say John Kerry has a major weakness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has difficulty in boiling down some of his substantive points to a short, concise, crisp formulation.
COOPER: It's a skill George Bush has mastered, that combined with his plainspoken style has worked very effectively in the past.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What I want to do is to send flexibility and authority to the local folks so you can choose what to do with the money. One size does not fit all.
COOPER: George Bush's biggest debating strength, his capacity to stay on message.
BUSH: I think that this is a diversion away from not talking about the issues that face Texas. I want to discuss welfare, education, I want to discuss the juvenile justice system.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When George Bush is at his best, he has his two or three points, he makes them and he never gets himself knocked away from them.
COOPER: His weakness say experts is that under pressure he sometimes shows flashes of temper.
BUSH: That's about as low a blow as you can give in the Republican primary.
COOPER: Receiving blows and not wincing tonight at 9:00 Eastern, that will be raw politics.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Today's buzz is this, what do you think will influence the election more? The debate, the post-debate campaign spin or the post-debate media spin? Log on to CNN.com/360. Cast your vote. Results at the end of the program tonight.
360 next, our crowd finally showed up. The security sweep is over. The crowd here at the University of Miami, all waiting to see former secretary of state Madeleine Albright. She, representing the Kerry campaign. We'll talk to her ahead.
Plus the 360 user's guide to the debate. What you need to look for and what you need to see. We're live from the University of Miami. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And we are live at the University of Miami, in Coral Gables. The crowd is very evenly divided between Kerry and Bush supporters. A lot to talk about ahead. Secretary -- former secretary of state, Madeleine Albright joins me.
On this day of a major offensive in Samarra and more bloodshed in Baghdad, John Kerry is expected to hammer of president tonight on security and Iraq, that's what this debates all about. The question is, how much specifics will we hear on the Kerry plan?
Representing Senator Kerry tonight, former secretary of state, as I said, under President Clinton, Madeleine Albright.
Good to see you Secretary.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Great to be with us.
COOPER: How specific can he get?
Is there much of a difference between his forward -- his forward look policy in Iraq and President Bush's?
ALBRIGHT: I think there is. What Senator Kerry has said is he would be in a much better position to internationalize this whole horrible combat.
COOPER: What does that mean? I mean, how will he be in a better position
ALBRIGHT: Well, first of all, because he's not President Bush who, as a result of his arrogant behavior has actually alienated many of our allies. That's not to say it's going be easy, but I think it will be better for Senator Kerry to try to do that.
COOPER: But can he really bring the French in, the Germans in?
ALBRIGHT: I don't think it's necessary to bring the French or Germans in if they really step up what they're doing in terms of training of the Iraqis themselves, which is the second point of Senator Kerry's plan. And then, on the reconstruction, we can't hog the contracts and expect other countries to have any stake in this. So, that has to be...
COOPER: So form that out a little more bit more and maybe they'll be a little bit more receptive.
ALBRIGHT: It has to be something other than Halliburton. And also really build from the roots up democracy. What the president is trying to do is to impose democracy, which is an oxymoron.
COOPER: What does that mean, though, build it up from the roots?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I can tell you, that there's a minimal amount of political activity already and there have been some local elections. And we can't just decide that it has to be on a date certain in January, because the whole point of having an election is to create a legitimate government. And if people aren't able to vote -- Prime Minister Allawi, when he was here, said basically that 15 out of the 18 provinces were ready.
COOPER: John Kerry wouldn't push forward elections in January?
ALBRIGHT: He wants to make sure the elections are properly staffed. That -- what's happened now is the U.N. has only a few dozen people in there. There have to be thousands of polls stations open, there have to be all kinds of poll watchers.
COOPER: Grand Ayatollah Al Sistani, I mean he has said that he's been very concerned about any movement or any push back on the election.
ALBRIGHT: Well, this is now a real issue, because Sistani, he's not been brought in by the admiration early enough.
COOPER: Well, he won't even meet with the Americans. He won't meet with us.
ALBRIGHT: Well, because America has dissed him in the first place. So, I think they're many -- look, nobody is saying this is easy, but we are headed in the wrong direction and this president is leading us down the wrong past and not telling us the truth. And what Senator Kerry will do in the debate tonight and what he'll do it when he's president is tell the American people the truth.
COOPER: Just the other day, he said it depends on the outcome, ultimately and that depends on the leadership. A lot of people hear that and think, what does that mean? It sounds like you're trying to have it both ways.
ALBRIGHT: I think what he's said all along is he's glad Saddam Hussein is gone, but we don't know at the moment what has happened at the moment. There's only one word for this, a diplomatic word, it's a mess. And I think what has to happen is, we need new leadership. We need to be able to tell the Iraqi people that ultimately this is their country, but we can't abandon them and can't -- you know, Secretary Powell, Secretary Rumsfeld, the leaders on the ground are telling President Bush that everything is not going the way he's saying. And the sad part, frankly is I think the president believes what he says, and in the meantime, the American people are confused. So I think -- we all have a big job in order to make sure the people know what's really going on.
COOPER: It will be a fascinating debate tonight.
Former secretary of state, Madeleine, thanks very much.
ALBRIGHT: Great, thank you.
COOPER: I loved hearing you say "dissed" by the way.
ALBRIGHT: Have to for your program.
COOPER: I appreciate that. Dissed.
360 next, the voice of the electorate will be heard. We're going to go out into the crowd and find out what question these young folks would ask the candidates. First today's "Buzz," what do you think will influence the election more, the debate, the post-debate campaign spin, and there's a lot of that, or the post debate media spin. Log on to cnn.com/360. Cast your vote now, results when you come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: It's rule (AUDIO GAP) long and meticulous debate agreement says, there will be no audience participation tonight, but those rules doesn't take effect until 9:00 when the candidates come out. So now the audience will have a chance to ask questions some. And while we couldn't get the candidates to answer them, we got the next best thing. Back once again, "CROSSFIRE" hosts Paul Begala, and Robert Novak. They're safe up there. I'm down in the very security- conscious crowd down here. It's good to have you all here. Are you all excited about tonight's debate?
(CHEERING)
COOPER: That's what you call a crowd opener, right there. Let me start off with you. What's your name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jason Estevez (ph).
COOPER: And what grade are you in -- what class are you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A senior.
COOPER: A senior. All right, so what is your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wanted to ask why did the president shift his attention from Osama bin Laden to Saddam Hussein, when it was Osama bin Laden responsible for 9/11?
COOPER: I know Paul Begala would love to answer that one, but let's give that one to Bob Novak. NOVAK: I don't think there was any shift in the offensive. If you read General Tommy Franks' memoir, he says that they were applying equal force in both places. It's a different kind of war in Afghanistan, and they didn't need as many troops there as they did in Iraq, so they thought they could do both at the same time.
COOPER: Paul, do you want to add anything on that?
BEGALA: Yeah, there's no question the president took his eye off the ball. I mean, you know, a senator -- Bob Graham, your senator from here in Florida, says Osama bin Laden is Osama bin Forgotten. He's the one who killed 3,000 of our people. He's the one that Bush ought to be going after to get.
Here's a test. See if Bush mentions bin Laden tonight. He went through the whole Republican Convention never mentioning him, because he doesn't want you to remember that he took his eye off the ball and didn't go after the son of a gun who killed 3,000 of our people.
COOPER: All right. Next question. What's your name and your class?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Faith Johnson (ph). I'm a junior. My question is how big a part do you think Bush and Kerry's service record will play in tonight's debate?
NOVAK: It will not -- I'll make a little prediction. Bush's service record and Kerry's service record will not be mentioned by the candidates tonight. Now, whether James Lehrer asks a question about it, they're going to flash it all, very quickly say that's not part of the debate.
BEGALA: Yeah, I'm with Bob. I think there's been too much talk about Vietnam. I think we ought to have a lot more talk about the quagmire we're in today than the quagmire we were in 35 years ago.
COOPER: All right, let's get another question. What's your name and what class are you in?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Noah Mitchell (ph), from Westfield (ph), Michigan. I am just wondering, what Bush and Kerry are going to want to get across tonight to undecided voters that hasn't been apparent thus far in the campaign?
COOPER: Paul, are there undecided voters out there, and how does each candidate try to reach them tonight?
BEGALA: There are. In fact, one poll showed that 18 percent of voters, while not undecided, are open to being swayed by the debates. And I think what Kerry wants to tell those voters is, look, I have a plan to get us out of Iraq, I have a plan to win the thing. And if Bush won't even recognize that it's going in the wrong direction, so he can't have a plan to win, because he thinks things are going great already. That's how Kerry is going to try to reach them tonight.
NOVAK: I think people are -- much fewer -- many fewer than 18 percent. That's what one poll might have shown. But I think very few people are persuadable, and that is the great mystery for John Kerry. He's behind in the polls, how does he persuade those people, those undecided voters? He doesn't do it by being unpleasant, by being -- by attacking Bush, and he has to come up with something positive, and he hasn't done that so far.
COOPER: All right. Let's get another question in. Your name and your class.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jack Sardusian (ph), I'm a junior. And I wanted to ask, with Florida being such an important state in this year's election and with the Everglades being such an important part of the state of Florida, how do you think Bush's environmental policies will do it for him in the election?
NOVAK: People who vote on the environment are probably not going to vote for President Bush, but that's a very, very small percentage of the people. The reason President Bush is leading is more people think, whether Paul thinks they're wrong, but I think the people are usually right, they trust the president more to deal with terrorism and fight the war in Iraq.
BEGALA: I hope the environment does come up. It won't come up tonight, because it is a foreign policy debate, but you know, if you breathe, you ought to be into the environment, and if you breathe, your environment, your air is a lot dirtier. George W. Bush outsourced the writing of our environmental laws to Enron and Exxon and all the big polluters. And so anybody who likes to go hunt or fish or actually breathe, they ought to be for John Kerry.
COOPER: I'm sure you both had excellent answers. I couldn't hear them, because Paige (ph) over here is asking me to take photos with her. I'm like hey, you know what, we have a program here.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Your name and what you want -- what question on it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Ryan (ph), I'm a sophomore. I was just wondering if Bush or Kerry will specifically address the young voters of America tonight, and if so how?
COOPER: Passingly at best, that would be my answer. But let's see. Paul, what do you think?
BEGALA: Well, I hope they do, because you all have a lot more at stake at this than anybody else. You have to pay down the deficit that Bush has run up, and guys and some women, your age, Ryan (ph), are over there in the desert tonight. And you know, as long as we have this president there, they're going to be stuck in the desert, because the president thinks things are going great there. He needs to have a big, fat reality sandwich tonight, and realize that we're in a lot of trouble in Iraq, and it's young people who are paying the price.
COOPER: Bob? NOVAK: I think what the president and Senator Kerry want is for the young people to vote, but not many young people are going to vote, because they're not that well-organized and they're too self-centered to vote. So I don't think there's much you can do to get the young people to vote.
But President Bush has two great programs for the young people, privatization of Social Security and tax reform. He's not going to talk about them tonight, of course, but those are two proposals that are really good for young people, instead of all this blather that you get about big government and the welfare state.
COOPER: We'll see, '72 and '92 were the big years for young voter turnout. We'll see if 2004 is again. Bob, Paul, thanks, guys. Thank you. You're excellent. Excellent.
Time now for "The Buzz." Earlier we asked you...
(CHEERING)
COOPER: ... what do you think will influence the election more? Over 24,000 of you voted. Thirty-seven percent of you said the debate; 12 percent think the post-debate campaign spin will have the most influence, while 51 percent say it is the media spin. Interesting.
Not a scientific poll, but it is "The Buzz." We appreciate it.
360 next, countdown to the debate, we are just over an hour away. Will this be a make or break night for either candidate? We are live from the University of Miami. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And we are live from the University of Miami in lovely Coral Gables. We are just about an hour away from the first presidential debate. It's going to be a very significant debate, and it should be a very interesting debate. Are you looking forward to this tonight?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very much so, yeah.
COOPER: What's your name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ryan (ph).
COOPER: What kind of question would you ask either candidate?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would ask President Bush, we've heard a lot of rhetoric about terror, the war on terrorism. I want a definition of terrorism such that the 9/11 attacks killing 3,000 civilians, that's terrorism. Us going to Iraq for our own agenda and killing countless thousands of Iraqis, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) not terrorism?
COOPER: You equate those two acts in the same way? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there is something similar there. We're going for our ideology, our beliefs of self-interest, they're doing the same thing. Why is it -- what's the definition of terrorism such that what we do is not terrorism?
COOPER: All right, and that would be a tough question to answer. Anyone over here, question?
What would you ask the candidates?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would ask the candidates why if Bush is so for state rights, that he wants a federal amendment governing marriage, and regardless of what (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
COOPER: Thanks so much. It's been great, appreciate you all joining us. Thanks very much for watching this special of 360. "PAULA ZAHN NOW" takes it away -- Paula.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 30, 2004 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening from the University of Miami in Coral Gables, Florida. I'm Anderson Cooper.
It's the Bush-Kerry faceoff, part one, just two hours away.
360 starts now.
No more speculation, no more spin. Tonight, John Kerry and George Bush face off. Two expert debaters, head to head on Iraq, terror, and what they'd do to protect us all.
Bush and Kerry's last-minute planning, punches and counterpunches. Tonight, what you need to know about their strategies and what they have done right and wrong in past debates.
Ralph Nader, spoiler on savior? Not invited to debate, the presidential candidate joins us live for some tough talk about the candidates, the process, and what he hopes happens tonight.
And how much do you really know about your favorite candidate's stand on the issues? You might be surprised at how clueless some voters are. But don't worry, we're not talking about you.
ANNOUNCER: Live from the University of Miami, this is a special edition of ANDERSON COOPER 360.
COOPER: And good evening. Welcome to this special edition.
We are here at the University of Miami in Coral Gables for the first of three debates between the presidential contenders George Bush and John Kerry. The topic tonight, of course, foreign policy, and it's impossible to imagine that the events of the day in Iraq will not be topic number one.
In Iraq today, a very bad day indeed. Steel yourself for some grisly scenes. Forty-one people were killed in just two car bomb attacks, 34 of them children, gathered around U.S. soldiers who were just handing out candy at the opening of a sewage plant, certainly fodder for those who say things are getting worse there, not better.
At the same time, there's word now of an American offensive in Samarra, one of those cities that's in the Sunni triangle that has been a hotbed of insurgent activity over the last several months. U.S. troops and Iraqi national guard units are involved in what's described as the largest military action there in months.
Jane Arraf is with those troops and is now live with us on the phone. Jane, what's the latest?
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on phone): Anderson, we're here in the northwest of the city, next to the city council building and other buildings, include the mayor's office. U.S. forces and Iraqi national guard have taken, they're moving sector by sector through the city to secure it in what the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) calls the battle for Samarra.
This is a huge operation, Anderson, it's a brigade-sized operation. They've sent in tanks, air support. It's a very eerie feeling here, it's completely dark. They have cut off power to this side of the city. And around us there's what sounds like thunder, but are actually mortars as well as rocket-propelled grenades being launched, and what was just a little while ago, quite heavy fire coming from here.
They are taking the city sector by sector to regain control from what they say may be 2,000 insurgents.
COOPER: Jane, behind you, I think I'm hearing some sort of explosions or shots firing. What is that?
ARRAF: That sounds like what we've been hearing is machine gunfire. There has been extensive contact, it seems, in this part of town with the insurgents, as well as air strikes. They have been launching air strikes as well. We're now hearing what sounds like either F-15s or F-16s.
This is the first major operation they have launched. The city had been off limits to them until they moved in three weeks ago, dissolving an agreement they had with the city not to do patrols here, Anderson.
COOPER: Jane, stay safe. We'll check in with you a little bit later on.
It's hard to imagine that we're not going to hear some reference to all of this in the evening ahead, an evening that promises to be perhaps the most important showdown between President Bush and Senator Kerry.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Hours to go, sweaty palms time. After months of stump speeches about each other, Bush and Kerry tonight they go face to face. The subject matter, foreign policy. Expect lots of talk about Iraq.
For the president, a chance to discuss his decision to go to war, to call his opponent's votes on the war flip-flops. For the challenger, an opportunity to pin the problems with the war squarely on the president's shoulders and explain how he would do things differently.
On both sides, the press spin, that's what it is, after all. Ceaseless talk about something that hasn't even happened yet has been dizzying. Yesterday, the Kerry folk sent out a prebuttal, a counter to an argument that hadn't even been made yet. There's been endless handicapping. Kerry was a champion debater in school. The president is seasoned now, and a master of staying on message.
But with the president ahead in the polls, Kerry needs a stronger performance. Everyone will be watching to see if either candidate can land the knockout blow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Bush and Kerry, of course, have been ratcheting up the rhetoric for months now. And while the barbs have at times felt very personal, they've never been actually in person. That all changes, of course, right here tonight. They're going to shake hands at 9:02 this evening, the only time they're supposed to actually touch. And after that, expect the gloves to come off.
What will they say? What should they say?
Joining me are the "CROSSFIRE" guys, Paul Begala and Bob Novak.
These debate rules have been very tightly negotiated, 32 pages of rules. Does it favor one candidate over the other?
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Clearly favors Bush. The Kerry campaign got the one big thing they wanted, which is three debates instead of two. I frankly didn't think they'd get them. But the president was gracious. Bill Clinton only gave Bob Dole two debates. So Bush is being more gracious than (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
COOPER: So the Kerry camp basically said, OK, well, you gave us three debates, we'll give you...
BEGALA: Anything else you want. And they wanted a lot. They have stacked the order in their favor. The president's strength is foreign policy. They're...
COOPER: Because this debate, the first debate, will be the most watched?
BEGALA: Be the most watched, and could set the tone for the rest of the debates and the rest of the campaign. So -- and all these technical rules, the bubble that creates the artificiality, Bush being a child of a president, is actually more comfortable in that bubble than any politician I've ever known. He likes the order and the structure and really, he thrives in the artificiality of it.
COOPER: Bob, do you buy that?
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": I (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I can't really disagree with anything that Paul said...
COOPER: Mark the date and time.
NOVAK: I do think that the watching John Kerry, I've watched him in debates for a number of years. I don't think he's a great debater. I think he's a very limited debater. His great triumph in the '96 reelection debate was on a very narrow canvas. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
COOPER: He's not a great debater because he's verbose?
NOVAK: He's verbose, he's not very inspiring. And we are at a point right today where it is not a toss-up election. There's no question that George W. Bush has a lead, not a big lead, but he has a lead, and so tonight, Senator Kerry has to do something big. He has to say, Boy, he really whacked him good.
The idea that he can, if he just stands up to him and is able to be in the same arena with him, he's going to have a victory, that's not true.
COOPER: But with these rules, Paul, I mean, can, can you do something big?
NOVAK: It's very difficult.
BEGALA: Very difficult. Debates are never won, they're lost. It's, and, but it's not a strategy, the Kerry campaign can't sit there and say, Gee, we hope Bush messes up, because he's unlikely to. He plays this like Chris Evert plays tennis. No unforced errors.
But (UNINTELLIGIBLE) slight disagreement with Bob in that I think Kerry does profit if he can just put the Bush effort in Iraq today on trial. I mean, one of the tactical things I'm going to look for is, Bush wins if the debate is about the past, Kerry's votes and quotes on the war, which are a tangled mess. They're impenetrable.
Kerry wins if the debate is about today and tomorrow, because Bush seems to be in this kind of denial fantasyland, where he says, Well, things are great, when they are plainly not, and he doesn't seem to have any idea how to get us out of it. So that'll be the debate, between the past and the present.
NOVAK: That's a total Kerry spin, and my agreement with my friend Begala has just come to a crashing end.
COOPER: Mark the date and time.
NOVAK: Yes. I think he has, Anderson, I think he, the Senator Kerry has two immense problems. The first problem he has is that he has a very sophisticated concept that going after Saddam Hussein and getting rid of this tyrant was a setback in the war on terror. Now, I'm not going to debate whether he's right or he's wrong, but it is almost impossible to make that argument to the general public in 30 minutes, much less two minutes.
The second problem is that he is -- he is a Massachusetts liberal, he's been voting against defense and intelligence all his life. And to say, I am the guy who can come in and win this war, he's out of character. He's in character saying, I'm going to do more for children and poor people and liberal journalists, and things like that.
COOPER: Liberal journalists. All right. Bob Novak, we're going to have to leave it there. Unfortunately, the liberal journalist, Paul Begala. Thanks. We'll check in with you guys a little bit later on.
We're at the student union. There's actually a security sweep going on behind us right now. Security very tight. This place was packed with hundreds of students a few minutes ago. The Secret Service and police are now checking it out for anything, and they kindly let us continue broadcasting, assuming that Begala over here wasn't too much of a security risk. We'll see about that. All right.
360 next, plus debate spin, counterspin, there's so much of it going on, you can get dizzy. We're going to try to cut through the hype with the campaign correspondents John King and Candy Crowley.
Also tonight, Ralph Nader crashing the party. He's been locked out of the debates, but he's joining us live, and you can bet he's got some strong words for the Republicans and Democrats.
And speaking for the candidates tonight, Don Evans and Madeleine Albright. We go 360 with them coming up as we continue live from the University of Miami.
First, a 360 debate challenge.
Which presidential candidate has the most debate appearances -- Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, or Ross Perot?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Which presidential candidate has the most debate appearances? The answer is George H.W. Bush, six, one vice presidential, five presidential.
The current President Bush, though, is on his way to tying his father's record. The latest "L.A. Times" national poll shows that Senator Kerry is trailing President Bush among registered voters by 4 percent points, and by 6 percentage points among likely voters. Other polls have him even further behind.
So what is the big finisher's plan?
CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley has that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After four days of debate prep, the key now is to look relaxed, ready, nonchalant about the stakes. And his strategists expect Kerry will be great, but they are pushing hard to dispel the notion that the senator, running behind, needs to change the tide now or never.
JOE LOCKHART, KERRY CAMPAIGN: There are three debates. There's still plenty of time here. This idea that somehow this is make or break is just silly.
CROWLEY: Still, state polls show Kerry struggling in many must- win states, and behind in red states the campaign once thought it could turn blue. So they know tonight is important.
LOCKHART: This is going to be a chance for John Kerry to stand next to the president and give the American public a chance to say, Does he have what it takes to be president? Does he have the strength and the wisdom and the judgment?
CROWLEY: Democrats outside the campaign say reversing the flip- flopper image and showing voters his likable side cannot be done in 90 minutes. But Kerry has to make a big start. Aides say the senator plans to answer any charges of inconsistent language or positions clearly and directly. The goal is to take the focus off of him and place it squarely on the president.
LOCKHART: He's going to be held accountable for his record tonight. And if he tries to duck and dive and slide, John Kerry's going to hold him accountable.
CROWLEY: Democrats say Kerry must enable viewers to see him in the role of wartime commander in chief. To that end, aides let it be known that the senator spoke this afternoon with one of his Vietnam buddies, who told Kerry to remember he'd, quote, "been under heavier fire before."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: One of the byproducts of this debate for John Kerry is that it's being held in Florida, a state that he has been kind of blocked out of by so many hurricanes and bad weather. He intends to take full advantage of that. There will, of course, be a post-debate rally here, but then he will also move through the state today, tomorrow and into Saturday in an attempt to make up for some of that lost time, Anderson.
COOPER: Candy Crowley, thanks very much. We'll check in with you later.
We're going to check out now what the president's day was like leading up to this big night. CNN senior White House correspondent John King has details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Offering comfort to hurricane victims in Florida, a predebate display of the benefits of incumbency.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've asked Congress to provide $12.2 billion in federal funds to respond to these storms.
KING: But in Iraq, more deadly violence, more vivid evidence the president enters the first debate carrying the burdens of incumbency as well.
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: His great danger is to have either an arrogance about this or to have a dismissive quality toward Kerry's arguments. Kerry is giving voice to a lot of the doubts and qualms people have about Iraq.
KING: The president's aides promise a forceful defense of his Iraq policy. Look for Mr. Bush to acknowledge setbacks and hardship but talk optimistically about Iraq's prospects. And look for him to repeatedly contrast his leadership style with an opponent Mr. Bush says has few core convictions.
KAREN HUGHES, BUSH CAMPAIGN ADVISER: I know at the end of this debate, one thing will be clear, where President Bush stands. I don't think you can say the same about Senator Kerry.
KING: The president enters the first of three debates with a slight edge in the polls and a clear advantage, at least so far, in one barometer of presidential politics.
GERGEN: Bush, frankly, I think, goes in with a lot of advantages against Kerry on style, because he is -- he, he wears well with voters, he's emotionally more appealing. Kerry tends to be more cerebral. Bush is not.
KING: Democrats all but concede Mr. Bush has a more engaging personality. They're banking substance matters more than style this time.
JOHN PODESTA, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: That backyard barbecue question, I think, is less relevant to people right now. They want somebody who's going to get the country on a different track and lead the country to a safer, more secure place.
KING: The campaign war rooms will try to shape media coverage even as they candidates speak. And team Bush's favorite themes come as no surprise.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Now, aides say it's critical that the president explains and defends his Iraq policy, that he not get angry, so in mock debate sessions, they peppered him with harshly critical questions to test whether Mr. Bush could keep his temper in check, Anderson.
COOPER: One of the many things we'll watch for tonight. John King, thanks.
Today's buzz question is this, what do you think? Will the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), who will, who do you think will influence the elections more, or what do you think, the debate itself, the post- debate campaign spin, or the post-debate media spin? Log onto CNN.com/360, cast your vote. We'll have results at the end of the program tonight.
Coming up next on 360, he has John Kerry playing defense. The question is, will President Bush be able to hold his own one on one? Secretary Don Evans joins us live to answer some tough questions about Iraq, the president's apparent optimism, and whether he's ignoring facts on the ground. Also tonight, Ralph Nader crashing the party. They wouldn't let him in the debates, but he is here, and he's going to join us live. We are live from the University of Miami.
And now, another 360 debate challenge. How many times did Al Gore audibly sigh during his first debate with George W. Bush? Was it two times, five times, 12 times, or 18 times?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: How many times did Al Gore audibly sigh during his first debate with George W. Bush? Eighteen times.
Probably won't hear too many sighs from either candidate tonight.
President Bush isn't really expected to change his style or substance for tonight debate. Probably a reasonable strategy, since he's ahead in the polls. But how will his optimism on Iraq play on a day when dozens of children were killed by a car bomb?
Representing the Bush campaign tonight, Commerce Secretary Don Evans.
Mr. Secretary, thanks very much for being with us tonight.
I want to ask you, President Bush has been optimistic about Iraq on the campaign trail of late, and yet now there's this quote out from Dick Cheney, then defense secretary 12 years ago, saying that the U.S. doesn't want to get bogged down in trying to govern and take over Iraq. By that definition, are we bogged down now in Iraq?
DON EVANS, SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: No, Anderson, we're not. I mean, the president is optimistic about Iraq and continuing to move that country toward democracy and giving that, those 25 million people the liberties that they deserve. And the president is optimistic about America. I mean, he's confident in America, he's confident in the American people.
And so that optimism is really part of his leadership, and, but no, we're not bogged down in Iraq, and we'll continue to move toward elections in January, and confident we'll have elections in January. The power has been transferred to the Iraqi people, and so, you know, yes, there are challenges there, but certainly not bogged down. Clearly have a strategy to continue to move toward democracy, full democracy in Iraq.
COOPER: You now have some prominent Republicans coming forward, Senator (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Senator McCain called it a "serious mistake not to have had enough troops," Senator Hagel said we're deep in trouble, "We're in deep trouble, I don't think we are winning." Those quotes are very possibly going to come up tonight. How will the president respond to that? I mean, he concerned about defections or concern within his own party?
EVANS: Listen, the president has the same clear resolve that he delivered to the American people, he stated to the American people on September 20, 2001. He will not waver, he will not tire until we win the war against terrorism. And this is part of that war against terrorism.
He fully understands that there will be challenges along the way and that we have some challenges now. But now is the time to continue to persevere, now is the time to be steady and focused and remain disciplined on the plan that the president is leading on to win the war against terrorism.
It's not to say that we won't have challenges and -- along the way, and it's appropriate for others to talk about some of the challenges of the moment. But the president is focused on victory and winning, and delivering to the American people their security and safety and liberty, make sure that this country is a safe and secure nation for all the American people.
COOPER: And no doubt we'll hear a lot of that tonight. Secretary of Commerce Don Evans, appreciate you joining us. Thanks very much.
EVANS: Thank you.
COOPER: Unlike some (UNINTELLIGIBLE) programs, we don't take sides here on 360. We try to bring you all the angles. Coming up later this hour, Kerry adviser and former secretary of state Madeleine Albright answers tough questions on Iraq, on what, if anything, her candidate would do differently. That's coming up later on 360.
By now, the candidates' faces and their names are certainly familiar, but how well do you really know their positions? I mean, you'd think we'd know the presidential candidates by now. But the truth is, a lot of folks are kind of clueless. And don't worry, we're not actually talking about you, of course.
Here's senior analyst Jeff Greenfield.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): So you're planning to spend 90 minutes watching the candidates debate tonight? Millions of you say this is going to help you decide who you are for.
But, you know, they have been at this for months, years even. And one of the really curious things about you -- well, not you, of course, but people you know and work with and maybe live with -- is that they don't have much of a clue about where Bush and Kerry stand on some key issues.
The Annenberg election survey, released yesterday, found what can only be called massive cluelessness among a whole lot of you. Sorry, not you. For instance, 66 percent say they favor wiping out the estate tax or the death tax, as opponents call it. President Bush is a big-time supporter of repeal.
BUSH: They need to put the stake in the heart of the death tax forever.
GREENFIELD: But only 40 percent say they agree with Bush on this issue. Do the math. It's really simple. More than a quarter of the voters don't know that Bush agrees with them. Well, it must be the liberal media, right? Wrong. The same thing happens with one of Senator Kerry's big issues, reimporting prescription drugs from Canada. Seventy-four percent say they're in favor of bringing these drugs back home, but barely half say they agree with Kerry on this issue.
The gap is almost as big between those who say they want to shift tax breaks to create jobs back in the U.S.A., and those who say they agree with Kerry, who happens to hold exactly the same position.
Now, it's not an entirely bleak picture. Voters are pretty close to the mark on the candidates' positions on abortion, or making the tax cuts permanent. But the gap is big enough on enough issues to start pointing fingers in all directions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: Right. Now, some of the blame goes to the campaigns for spending so much time attacking the other guy. And some of it falls on us, the media -- well, not us, of course, but people we know and work with, for pushing sizzle over substance.
But ask yourself, friends, or people you know and work with, how much time do you spend watching "American Idol," "Fear Factor," "The Apprentice," "Extreme Makeover," "Who Wants to Marry My Dad's Lover"? Now, how much time have you spent watching C-SPAN 1, 2, and 3 combined?
Anderson, case closed.
COOPER: Uh, oh, yikes, I'm not sure I want to answer that question. Yes, he had. Did you mention "The Apprentice" also? The, what is it, though, I mean, do voters really vote on particular issues like that, or is it more a sense of someone they like, someone they feel they know the character of?
GREENFIELD: Some voters vote, bullet vote on one key issue, but you're quite right, for others it's a general impression. The problem that I was somewhat tongue-in-cheek pointing to is, some people think they know what they're voting for, like the lady who said she was going to vote against Barry Goldwater because he wanted to sell her a TV. And it turned out she meant the Tennessee Valley Authority, the public (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But she said, I'm not taking any chances.
They get to vote the same way you and I do, and the same way our smart, well-informed listeners do.
COOPER: That's what makes America great.
GREENFIELD: OK.
COOPER: Jeff Greenfield, thanks very much. Coming up next on 360, Ralph Nader's party, he's unscripted and off message, and he's joining us live to sound off on the GOP and the Democrats.
Plus, former secretary of state Madeleine Albright on Kerry's message. Does he have what it takes to come out on top tonight?
Debate is getting near. We'll have a lot more from Miami ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And welcome back to this special edition of 360 at the University of Miami in Coral Gables, Florida.
We've been talking about and waiting for the first of three scheduled debates between the incumbent president, George Bush, and his Democratic challenger, Senator John Kerry, scheduled to begin about 90 minutes from now. It will be a very exciting evening.
With me here is my CNN colleague Wolf Blitzer. Also joining me from the debate hall is Judy Woodruff.
Wolf, let me start off with you. What are you anticipating tonight? What are you going to be looking for as a viewer?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm going to be looking, obviously, for, because I'm specifically interested in factual errors that one of the candidates or both of the candidates might make. And I want, I want to be precise, I want our viewers to be precise. And if we hear false statements or exaggerations, I want to make sure that we're on top of that.
COOPER: Because there've been false statements in past debates a lot.
BLITZER: Oh, sure, and I think we owe it to our viewers to make sure that we're on top of it, and our experts. And we're going to have fact-checkers looking at all the specific issues to make sure that if there are exaggerations or even outright falsehoods that are made, that we point that out to our viewers.
COOPER: Important thing. A lot of spin, a lot of misuse of facts over the last several months. Judy, how about you? What are you going to be looking for as a viewer? As a reporter?
JUDY WOODRUFF, HOST, "JUDY WOODRUFF'S INSIDE POLITICS": Well, I expect that they're going to be on top of the facts. You know, they've been cramming for days. I think what I'm looking for, Anderson, is the chemistry. They're going to be eight or ten feet apart, and you can see the stage behind me, but how will they react to each other? Are there going to be any of the smirks that President Bush was criticized for? We're told he's been working not to do that. Is John Kerry going to be warmer than what we have seen out on the trail? American people are looking, again, to see is this somebody I want to look at on my television screen for the next four years. In the case of George Bush, reelect him, but in the case of John Kerry, he still hasn't made the sale.
COOPER: Wolf, we know that from polls, we know that just from the human beings, that people want to elect people who they like, who they feel they're personable with.
BLITZER: I think that's a very important moment right now for John Kerry, to come across a little warmer, not stiff, and to speak in a way that people can understand, not get into the nuance. It's hard, because he's a senator, he spent 20 years on the Senate foreign relations committee. It will be hard for him to condense in two minutes or a minute 30 sometimes nuances and complicated thoughts, but he's been practicing that. If he wants to succeed tonight and come across as a plain-spoken but smart guy, that's what he has to do.
COOPER: All right. We'll be watching. Wolf Blitzer, Judy Woodruff, thanks very much.
Not every candidate who is running for president will be on the stage. Tonight no invites were sent out to the libertarians, socialists or natural law candidates and don't expect to see anyone from the constitution party either but noticeably absent is a candidate who may play a large role in this year's election. Some Democrats say he cost Al Gore the presidency four years ago. He disagrees with that.
Independent candidate Ralph Nader may not be seen on state, but he is here inside the building figuratively speaking, joining me now.
Mr. Nader, nice to see you. In the most recent polls you get anywhere from 2 percent to 3 percent support. With those kinds of numbers, why do you think you deserve to be in this debate?
RALPH NADER (I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, 5 percent in a "TIME" magazine poll, for example, but I deserve to be in the debate, because 57 percent of the American people in the Zogby poll just out want me on the debate. And that was true in the year 2000.
COOPER: A lot of those people are Republicans though and there are those who say they want you there, because it divides the votes away from debates.
NADER: Republicans are people, too. The fact is that 57 percent want me on the debates and these parties think they own the voters, they don't give them enough voices and choices, it's really not very democratic. They control the debate commission, the private corporation, and the two parties decide they don't want any competition. If they were in the business community, they would be convicted of antitrust violations.
COOPER: But you know there are people who say you've had an extraordinary career, you've done so much for Americans, for people around the world, why continue this when you don't have a real shot at winning, and there are those who say you'll take votes away from their candidate?
NADER: Because we've lost our government. Our government is corporate-occupied territory. Every department and agency is controlled by big business and the two parties are basically proxies. Just ask yourself, in the 19th century, none of these third parties ever won, but they pioneered the way against slavery, for women's right to vote, for the right of workers to form trade unions, for the farmer progressives...
COOPER: So it's not just about (UNINTELLIGIBLE), it's a larger point you're trying to make. It's the future.
NADER: It's called freedom, liberty, democracy, more voices and choices. That's what it is. These two parties are closing out the voters, half of them don't even vote. The audience for the debates have been going down, it's now under 40 million, and they have an arrogance that's incredible. Not even the courtesy to invite the presidential candidates and the third-party Independents to have seats in the auditorium.
COOPER: Where are you going to watch the debate tonight?
NADER: I'm watching here in the student center.
COOPER: What are you going to be watching for? What are you going to be listening for?
NADER: I'm going to be listening to whether they're willing to debate the Israeli/Palestinian conflict or they're on the same page, whether they're willing to debate global arms control, whether they're on the same page, whether they're going to debate the U.S. traditional support of dictators and olygarchs which are causing us real security problems, never mind what they're doing to the workers and the peasants, whether we're going to see the global assault on infectious diseases. "The New York Times" now is warning of a potential influenza pandemic from China and Thailand and whether we'll see a real attention to global environment. The planet is getting overloaded. It's not just climate change, greenhouse effect, right down to the oceans, the rivers...
COOPER: As you know, the debate tonight is largely on foreign policy, on Iraq, on the war on terror.
NADER: Yes.
COOPER: Do you think there really is any difference between those two candidates on these issues?
NADER: Very small. As a matter of fact, what "The New York Times" says, the page one article, remarking how similar the positions are on foreign policy. Both of them won't touch the bloated military budget, which has taken 50 percent out of the federal government's operating expenditures, and there's no more Soviet Union. Listen, you want a weapon of mass destruction, you want to see really terrorism, talk about viral and microbiological assaults heading this way from other parts of the world.
COOPER: Do you think one person will win tonight? Do you think there can be a winner? NADER: No, because there's 32 pages of rules. And most of them from the Republicans who don't like over-regulation. They have boxed in these two candidates in corsets and straitjackets that don't even bring the best and worst out of them. They take the spontaneity out...
COOPER: No direct questions one to another, no touching, no...
NADER: It's all scripted. And this is why it's very tedious. The American people deserve presidential debates that do not serve to be a cure for insomnia. They deserve a debate -- this is the big issue -- too much corporate power. This is the big issue. Too much corporate power. If "Businessweek" can say there's too much corporate power, and something has to be done about it, why don't the two parties show as much courage.
COOPER: You made very strong allegations against the Democrats, you said, they have intimidated people from signing your petitions to get you on the ballot. Do you actually have proof of that?
NADER: Tremendous. Phony lawsuits. We beat them about seven out of nine state supreme court decisions including here in Florida.
COOPER: The (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
NADER: No, no, they have hoards of lawyers, phony lawsuits, intimidation, harassment. We're documenting it all over the country. It's very antidemocratic for the Democratic party to do this and they're alienating the American people's sense of fair play. They're coming across as heavies, as Goliath, they're not very smart strategically. They should be registering 9 million African-American voters, 90 percent of them vote Democrat. They're not doing that. They should be going after the 10 times more Democratic voters who deserted Gore for Bush. They're not doing that.
COOPER: And you're in this race until the end?
NADER: We're in this race beyond November 2. We have to restore the sovereignty to people, make the big corporations our servants, not our masters, and take government back so that it responds to the necessities of the people.
COOPER: Ralph Nader, watching the debate on TV tonight, thanks very much.
NADER: And remember, VoteNader.org for more details.
COOPER: You came with props and a plug. Thanks very much.
For Bush and Kerry, the months of intense preparation comes down to this night. Their first debate, perhaps the most critical. Now, if history suggests anything, it's that both men are very skilled debaters, but who will appeal more to voters? It boils down to substance and style in the heat of raw politics. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COOPER (voice-over): John Kerry is a very effective formal debater. His delivery polished, his rhetoric impeccable.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: George Bush intends to make national security the key issue of this campaign. He has to. There's nothing else for him to run on.
COOPER: But his biggest strength, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) say, is his ability to turn attacks back at his opponents.
KERRY: The governor tries to take credit for the jobs, 250,000. He sounds like the rooster who's trying to take credit for the sunrise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry's main asset is his quickness and ability to maneuver effectively on his feet.
KERRY: I fought in a mistake called Vietnam. How are we going to have confidence that you're not going to vote in a war and peace issue for another mistake?
COOPER: Yet some experts say John Kerry has a major weakness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has difficulty in boiling down some of his substantive points to a short, concise, crisp formulation.
COOPER: It's a skill George Bush has mastered, that combined with his plainspoken style has worked very effectively in the past.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What I want to do is to send flexibility and authority to the local folks so you can choose what to do with the money. One size does not fit all.
COOPER: George Bush's biggest debating strength, his capacity to stay on message.
BUSH: I think that this is a diversion away from not talking about the issues that face Texas. I want to discuss welfare, education, I want to discuss the juvenile justice system.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When George Bush is at his best, he has his two or three points, he makes them and he never gets himself knocked away from them.
COOPER: His weakness say experts is that under pressure he sometimes shows flashes of temper.
BUSH: That's about as low a blow as you can give in the Republican primary.
COOPER: Receiving blows and not wincing tonight at 9:00 Eastern, that will be raw politics.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Today's buzz is this, what do you think will influence the election more? The debate, the post-debate campaign spin or the post-debate media spin? Log on to CNN.com/360. Cast your vote. Results at the end of the program tonight.
360 next, our crowd finally showed up. The security sweep is over. The crowd here at the University of Miami, all waiting to see former secretary of state Madeleine Albright. She, representing the Kerry campaign. We'll talk to her ahead.
Plus the 360 user's guide to the debate. What you need to look for and what you need to see. We're live from the University of Miami. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And we are live at the University of Miami, in Coral Gables. The crowd is very evenly divided between Kerry and Bush supporters. A lot to talk about ahead. Secretary -- former secretary of state, Madeleine Albright joins me.
On this day of a major offensive in Samarra and more bloodshed in Baghdad, John Kerry is expected to hammer of president tonight on security and Iraq, that's what this debates all about. The question is, how much specifics will we hear on the Kerry plan?
Representing Senator Kerry tonight, former secretary of state, as I said, under President Clinton, Madeleine Albright.
Good to see you Secretary.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Great to be with us.
COOPER: How specific can he get?
Is there much of a difference between his forward -- his forward look policy in Iraq and President Bush's?
ALBRIGHT: I think there is. What Senator Kerry has said is he would be in a much better position to internationalize this whole horrible combat.
COOPER: What does that mean? I mean, how will he be in a better position
ALBRIGHT: Well, first of all, because he's not President Bush who, as a result of his arrogant behavior has actually alienated many of our allies. That's not to say it's going be easy, but I think it will be better for Senator Kerry to try to do that.
COOPER: But can he really bring the French in, the Germans in?
ALBRIGHT: I don't think it's necessary to bring the French or Germans in if they really step up what they're doing in terms of training of the Iraqis themselves, which is the second point of Senator Kerry's plan. And then, on the reconstruction, we can't hog the contracts and expect other countries to have any stake in this. So, that has to be...
COOPER: So form that out a little more bit more and maybe they'll be a little bit more receptive.
ALBRIGHT: It has to be something other than Halliburton. And also really build from the roots up democracy. What the president is trying to do is to impose democracy, which is an oxymoron.
COOPER: What does that mean, though, build it up from the roots?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I can tell you, that there's a minimal amount of political activity already and there have been some local elections. And we can't just decide that it has to be on a date certain in January, because the whole point of having an election is to create a legitimate government. And if people aren't able to vote -- Prime Minister Allawi, when he was here, said basically that 15 out of the 18 provinces were ready.
COOPER: John Kerry wouldn't push forward elections in January?
ALBRIGHT: He wants to make sure the elections are properly staffed. That -- what's happened now is the U.N. has only a few dozen people in there. There have to be thousands of polls stations open, there have to be all kinds of poll watchers.
COOPER: Grand Ayatollah Al Sistani, I mean he has said that he's been very concerned about any movement or any push back on the election.
ALBRIGHT: Well, this is now a real issue, because Sistani, he's not been brought in by the admiration early enough.
COOPER: Well, he won't even meet with the Americans. He won't meet with us.
ALBRIGHT: Well, because America has dissed him in the first place. So, I think they're many -- look, nobody is saying this is easy, but we are headed in the wrong direction and this president is leading us down the wrong past and not telling us the truth. And what Senator Kerry will do in the debate tonight and what he'll do it when he's president is tell the American people the truth.
COOPER: Just the other day, he said it depends on the outcome, ultimately and that depends on the leadership. A lot of people hear that and think, what does that mean? It sounds like you're trying to have it both ways.
ALBRIGHT: I think what he's said all along is he's glad Saddam Hussein is gone, but we don't know at the moment what has happened at the moment. There's only one word for this, a diplomatic word, it's a mess. And I think what has to happen is, we need new leadership. We need to be able to tell the Iraqi people that ultimately this is their country, but we can't abandon them and can't -- you know, Secretary Powell, Secretary Rumsfeld, the leaders on the ground are telling President Bush that everything is not going the way he's saying. And the sad part, frankly is I think the president believes what he says, and in the meantime, the American people are confused. So I think -- we all have a big job in order to make sure the people know what's really going on.
COOPER: It will be a fascinating debate tonight.
Former secretary of state, Madeleine, thanks very much.
ALBRIGHT: Great, thank you.
COOPER: I loved hearing you say "dissed" by the way.
ALBRIGHT: Have to for your program.
COOPER: I appreciate that. Dissed.
360 next, the voice of the electorate will be heard. We're going to go out into the crowd and find out what question these young folks would ask the candidates. First today's "Buzz," what do you think will influence the election more, the debate, the post-debate campaign spin, and there's a lot of that, or the post debate media spin. Log on to cnn.com/360. Cast your vote now, results when you come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: It's rule (AUDIO GAP) long and meticulous debate agreement says, there will be no audience participation tonight, but those rules doesn't take effect until 9:00 when the candidates come out. So now the audience will have a chance to ask questions some. And while we couldn't get the candidates to answer them, we got the next best thing. Back once again, "CROSSFIRE" hosts Paul Begala, and Robert Novak. They're safe up there. I'm down in the very security- conscious crowd down here. It's good to have you all here. Are you all excited about tonight's debate?
(CHEERING)
COOPER: That's what you call a crowd opener, right there. Let me start off with you. What's your name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jason Estevez (ph).
COOPER: And what grade are you in -- what class are you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A senior.
COOPER: A senior. All right, so what is your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wanted to ask why did the president shift his attention from Osama bin Laden to Saddam Hussein, when it was Osama bin Laden responsible for 9/11?
COOPER: I know Paul Begala would love to answer that one, but let's give that one to Bob Novak. NOVAK: I don't think there was any shift in the offensive. If you read General Tommy Franks' memoir, he says that they were applying equal force in both places. It's a different kind of war in Afghanistan, and they didn't need as many troops there as they did in Iraq, so they thought they could do both at the same time.
COOPER: Paul, do you want to add anything on that?
BEGALA: Yeah, there's no question the president took his eye off the ball. I mean, you know, a senator -- Bob Graham, your senator from here in Florida, says Osama bin Laden is Osama bin Forgotten. He's the one who killed 3,000 of our people. He's the one that Bush ought to be going after to get.
Here's a test. See if Bush mentions bin Laden tonight. He went through the whole Republican Convention never mentioning him, because he doesn't want you to remember that he took his eye off the ball and didn't go after the son of a gun who killed 3,000 of our people.
COOPER: All right. Next question. What's your name and your class?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Faith Johnson (ph). I'm a junior. My question is how big a part do you think Bush and Kerry's service record will play in tonight's debate?
NOVAK: It will not -- I'll make a little prediction. Bush's service record and Kerry's service record will not be mentioned by the candidates tonight. Now, whether James Lehrer asks a question about it, they're going to flash it all, very quickly say that's not part of the debate.
BEGALA: Yeah, I'm with Bob. I think there's been too much talk about Vietnam. I think we ought to have a lot more talk about the quagmire we're in today than the quagmire we were in 35 years ago.
COOPER: All right, let's get another question. What's your name and what class are you in?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Noah Mitchell (ph), from Westfield (ph), Michigan. I am just wondering, what Bush and Kerry are going to want to get across tonight to undecided voters that hasn't been apparent thus far in the campaign?
COOPER: Paul, are there undecided voters out there, and how does each candidate try to reach them tonight?
BEGALA: There are. In fact, one poll showed that 18 percent of voters, while not undecided, are open to being swayed by the debates. And I think what Kerry wants to tell those voters is, look, I have a plan to get us out of Iraq, I have a plan to win the thing. And if Bush won't even recognize that it's going in the wrong direction, so he can't have a plan to win, because he thinks things are going great already. That's how Kerry is going to try to reach them tonight.
NOVAK: I think people are -- much fewer -- many fewer than 18 percent. That's what one poll might have shown. But I think very few people are persuadable, and that is the great mystery for John Kerry. He's behind in the polls, how does he persuade those people, those undecided voters? He doesn't do it by being unpleasant, by being -- by attacking Bush, and he has to come up with something positive, and he hasn't done that so far.
COOPER: All right. Let's get another question in. Your name and your class.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jack Sardusian (ph), I'm a junior. And I wanted to ask, with Florida being such an important state in this year's election and with the Everglades being such an important part of the state of Florida, how do you think Bush's environmental policies will do it for him in the election?
NOVAK: People who vote on the environment are probably not going to vote for President Bush, but that's a very, very small percentage of the people. The reason President Bush is leading is more people think, whether Paul thinks they're wrong, but I think the people are usually right, they trust the president more to deal with terrorism and fight the war in Iraq.
BEGALA: I hope the environment does come up. It won't come up tonight, because it is a foreign policy debate, but you know, if you breathe, you ought to be into the environment, and if you breathe, your environment, your air is a lot dirtier. George W. Bush outsourced the writing of our environmental laws to Enron and Exxon and all the big polluters. And so anybody who likes to go hunt or fish or actually breathe, they ought to be for John Kerry.
COOPER: I'm sure you both had excellent answers. I couldn't hear them, because Paige (ph) over here is asking me to take photos with her. I'm like hey, you know what, we have a program here.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Your name and what you want -- what question on it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Ryan (ph), I'm a sophomore. I was just wondering if Bush or Kerry will specifically address the young voters of America tonight, and if so how?
COOPER: Passingly at best, that would be my answer. But let's see. Paul, what do you think?
BEGALA: Well, I hope they do, because you all have a lot more at stake at this than anybody else. You have to pay down the deficit that Bush has run up, and guys and some women, your age, Ryan (ph), are over there in the desert tonight. And you know, as long as we have this president there, they're going to be stuck in the desert, because the president thinks things are going great there. He needs to have a big, fat reality sandwich tonight, and realize that we're in a lot of trouble in Iraq, and it's young people who are paying the price.
COOPER: Bob? NOVAK: I think what the president and Senator Kerry want is for the young people to vote, but not many young people are going to vote, because they're not that well-organized and they're too self-centered to vote. So I don't think there's much you can do to get the young people to vote.
But President Bush has two great programs for the young people, privatization of Social Security and tax reform. He's not going to talk about them tonight, of course, but those are two proposals that are really good for young people, instead of all this blather that you get about big government and the welfare state.
COOPER: We'll see, '72 and '92 were the big years for young voter turnout. We'll see if 2004 is again. Bob, Paul, thanks, guys. Thank you. You're excellent. Excellent.
Time now for "The Buzz." Earlier we asked you...
(CHEERING)
COOPER: ... what do you think will influence the election more? Over 24,000 of you voted. Thirty-seven percent of you said the debate; 12 percent think the post-debate campaign spin will have the most influence, while 51 percent say it is the media spin. Interesting.
Not a scientific poll, but it is "The Buzz." We appreciate it.
360 next, countdown to the debate, we are just over an hour away. Will this be a make or break night for either candidate? We are live from the University of Miami. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And we are live from the University of Miami in lovely Coral Gables. We are just about an hour away from the first presidential debate. It's going to be a very significant debate, and it should be a very interesting debate. Are you looking forward to this tonight?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very much so, yeah.
COOPER: What's your name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ryan (ph).
COOPER: What kind of question would you ask either candidate?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would ask President Bush, we've heard a lot of rhetoric about terror, the war on terrorism. I want a definition of terrorism such that the 9/11 attacks killing 3,000 civilians, that's terrorism. Us going to Iraq for our own agenda and killing countless thousands of Iraqis, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) not terrorism?
COOPER: You equate those two acts in the same way? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there is something similar there. We're going for our ideology, our beliefs of self-interest, they're doing the same thing. Why is it -- what's the definition of terrorism such that what we do is not terrorism?
COOPER: All right, and that would be a tough question to answer. Anyone over here, question?
What would you ask the candidates?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would ask the candidates why if Bush is so for state rights, that he wants a federal amendment governing marriage, and regardless of what (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
COOPER: Thanks so much. It's been great, appreciate you all joining us. Thanks very much for watching this special of 360. "PAULA ZAHN NOW" takes it away -- Paula.
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