Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Cheney, Edwards to Square Off Tonight; Bremer Speaks Out
Aired October 05, 2004 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening from Cleveland, Ohio. I'm Anderson Cooper.
The crowds are excited, the debate is tonight, and Cheney and Edwards prepare for the faceoff of a lifetime.
360 starts now.
The running mates take center stage. Tonight in Cleveland, Vice President Dick Cheney goes face to face and head to head with Senator John Edwards.
Who's the better debater? An uphill battle for John Edwards, or will his trial lawyer experience give him an edge over the political veteran Dick Cheney?
"CROSSFIRE" in the crossfire, our gang of political experts take questions from a tough Cleveland audience. Will the left or the right win out?
Ambassador Paul Bremer speaks out. Not enough troops in Iraq, says the former U.S. administrator. But is that really what he meant to say?
And Mount St. Helens, the sleeping giant awakening, venting out steam and ash. But is a bigger eruption still to come? Volcano watchers on high alert.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Cleveland, Ohio, this is a special edition of ANDERSON COOPER 360.
COOPER: And good evening again.
The excitement is building here at Cleveland, Ohio. Welcome to another special edition of 360.
Tonight, can Senator John Edwards continue the momentum John Kerry picked up after last week's debate? Or will Dick Cheney's age and experience reignite the Bush campaign's push for the White House?
In two hours, both men square off right here in Ohio on the campus of Case Western Reserve University. Tonight, we cover all the angles, as well as some startling and contradictory statements about Iraq and alleged ties between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.
Candy Crowley is covering the Kerry campaign, and John King the Bush-Cheney ticket.
But first, a preview of the debate that just might make a real difference in this campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): With President Bush making no campaign appearances today, and John Kerry's limited campaign schedule, all eyes were on the number twos.
SEN. JOHN KERRY, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Tonight, John Edwards is going to square off with Dick Cheney, and I'll tell you where my money is.
COOPER: The only meeting between the vice presidential candidates will be a study in contrasts, the serious, steady, tongue- like-a-dagger Dick Cheney.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When it comes to diplomacy, it looks to me like John Kerry should stick to windsurfing.
JOE LOCKHART, KERRY CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: If Dick Cheney wants to argue that his experience bodes, you know, bodes him well, look at the experience, look at what they've done over the last four years.
KATAYAMA: Versus the, Oh, gosh, I'm just a smalltown boy who cares about the little guy, John Edwards.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS, DEMOCRATIC VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: At the heart of this campaign, our campaign, is to make sure that everyone has the same kind of opportunities that I had growing up, no matter where you live, who your family is, or what the color of your skin. This is the America we believe in.
MARY MATALIN, BUSH CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: They put him on there because he was such a good talker, and that he's won tens of millions as a trial lawyer.
COOPER: Expect the vice president to bring up 9/11 and the trial lawyer business tonight repeatedly, just as John Edwards will no doubt connect Mr. Cheney to his former company, Halliburton.
It's a faceoff that could have extra meaning following last week's debate between the presidential candidates.
STEPHEN KOFF, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER": People may be giving the Kerry-Edwards ticket a fresh look after the other night. I don't know that one bad debate is enough for the Bush campaign to worry, to throw in the towel, but it's enough for some undecided voters to say, Gee, what's this Kerry guy all about?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And there have been some fascinating developments today that may have a big impact on tonight's debate.
L. Paul Bremer, former American overseer of Iraq, and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld may not have deliberately set out to spice things up ahead of today's debate, but spice things up they did anyway, with statements that ought to give both debaters a little something to chew on, or perhaps choke on.
CNN's senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former Iraq administrator Paul Bremer now admits what critics have been saying for a year and a half, the U.S. did not send enough troops to Iraq to keep the peace.
Bremer is quoted in a press release as saying, "We never had enough troops on the ground." That from an insurance group Bremer addressed Monday. And in remarks at DePauw University last month that drew little attention at the time, Bremer went even further, telling a student forum, "The one thing that would have improved the situation would have been having more troops in Iraq at the beginning and throughout."
Bremer second-guessing is political dynamite and was seized on by John Kerry to buttress his argument the war plan was flawed.
KERRY: Now Paul Bremer is saying what a terrible mistake it was. The president needs to take accountability for his own judgments.
MCINTYRE: In a clarifying statement, Bremer says there are now enough troops in Iraq, and insists his comments referred to his belief when he arrived in May of 2003 that more U.S. or Iraqi forces were needed to contain looting in the immediate aftermath of the invasion. At the time, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld dismissed the looting, saying, "War is imperfect, and stuff happens."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, May 2003)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It's untidy, and freedom is untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Bremer says the U.S. paid a big price for not stopping the looting, because it established an atmosphere of lawlessness.
It's not clear whether he argued for more troops either with military commanders or with Rumsfeld, but he said, "Although I raised this issue a number of times with our government, I should have been even more insistent."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And Anderson, it's the second time in two days that senior officials have had to issue clarifying statements about what they said. Just yesterday in New York, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said there was no strong, hard evidence of links between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. Today, he issued a statement saying he was misunderstood, and that he has acknowledged the links in September of 2002.
COOPER: Got to love those clarifying statements. All right, Jamie McIntyre, thanks for that.
Now, add this to the mix. The final report from investigators looking for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, to be turned in to Congress tomorrow, concludes that Iraq did not possess such weapons in the lead-up to the war. Now, the report also says that Saddam Hussein would have renewed the effort to get them if he could have gotten out from under U.N. sanctions.
All part of the atmosphere facing the two VP candidates tonight.
CNN's Candy Crowley begins with John Edwards.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Bremer steps out on troop levels, Rumsfeld steps back on a Saddam-al Qaeda link. Manna from heaven on the campaign trail.
KERRY: Behind the scenes in all of these discussions and presentations is Dick Cheney, and it's time for the vice president to be accountable and to answer the questions that have arisen.
CROWLEY: And that's it in a nutshell, the Edwards debate strategy, counter Dick Cheney's decades-long edge in experience with Dick Cheney's experience.
EDWARDS: There couldn't be a starker contrast. I do not have the same view. I do not have the same view of the world as Dick Cheney.
CROWLEY: Edwards' town hall meeting Tuesday was a departure from predebate ritual, and part of the predebate set up. As one Democratic strategist put it, Let's just say two events in one day isn't taxing for our candidate.
Oh, and Edwards got in his regular hour-long run.
Cheney has been a tireless campaigner and is only 12 years older than the gene-blessed Edwards. But the message here is deliberate, Cheney, old face. Edwards, new face.
Kerry-Edwards also love that whole courtroom-boardroom thing, Dick Cheney's five years as CEO of -- drumroll -- Halliburton, versus John Edwards' very successful multimillion-dollar career as a personal injury trial lawyer, suing big companies for little people, a Rocky Balboa image he cultivates on the campaign trail.
EDWARDS: I want to say to all of you, when I walk into that debate tonight and I sit down, I am there for you.
CROWLEY: Edwards will literally bring his common touch to the debate hall with him, letting reporters know he has invited as his guest a worker whose plant is closing next year, the working wife of a National Guardsman, a 9/11 widow, and a Gulf War vet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Candy, you've been following the gene-blessed John Edwards, as you called him in your report, for quite a while now. What are you personally going to be looking for in this debate tonight from him?
CROWLEY: Look, I think that he has a threshold test, and that is to be on the stage with a very seasoned sitting vice president and show that he too can be a heartbeat away from the presidency. And even the Kerry campaign will say he has to be perceived through that TV screen as a guy who could step in should anything happen to John Kerry.
So I think that most importantly he has to do that, and second most importantly, he's got to continue the conversation that John Kerry started and keep that focus on the Bush administration and the last four years.
COOPER: Keep the momentum going. All right. Candy Crowley, thanks very much for that.
Of course, a lot of people have been saying the format of this debate doesn't necessarily favor John Edwards, a man who likes to get up and walk, relate to the crowd. This debate tonight behind a table, some say, favors Dick Cheney.
For the view from the other side now, a report at what's at stake for Cheney from CNN senior White House correspondent John King.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Cleveland, once again called on when the president needs a major assist. On debate night, new questions about the Iraq war strategy Vice President Cheney helped shape, questions raised not by Democrats but by Bush administration colleagues Paul Bremer and Donald Rumsfeld.
The man who played Senator John Edwards in Mr. Cheney's mock debates says the vice president knows his biggest challenge tonight is answering Iraq war critics.
REP. ROB PORTMAN (R), OHIO: He believes in his heart, as you know, very strongly that this is the right thing to do for America, because it protects us here at home. And he believes, as Paul Bremer does, and said today in his statement, that it is central to the war against terrorism.
KING: Another Cheney challenge is calming Republican jitters, born of tightening polls and rough reviews of the president's first debate performance.
PORTMAN: I think it probably raised the stakes a bit, but let's face it, this was always going to be an important debate. It's a debate about who's going to be the vice commander in chief, you know, the person that may have to step in and be president of the United States.
KING: On the substance, Team Bush considers this a mismatch. Cheney, a former White House chief of staff, congressman, defense secretary, and vice president, against Edwards, a senator in politics shy of six years.
KEN DUBERSTEIN, FORMER REAGAN CHIEF OF STAFF: One is, you know, good hair, and the other is like a machine gun, dat-dat-dat-dat-dat, with all these facts and understandings of the world.
KING: Four years ago, Democrats were not happy with Senator Joseph Lieberman's performance, and Republicans suggest those memories were a big factor in the Edwards pick this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: ... joins us now.
John, which Dick Cheney are we going to see tonight at this debate? Is it going to be sort of the velvet-gloved Dick Cheney who appeared in the 2000 debate against Lieberman?
KING: We are told the vice president has no plans to be harsh in his attacks tonight. We're also told -- and this will be interesting to watch -- that the vice president is prepared to acknowledge setbacks in Iraq, prepared to acknowledge that not everything has gone exactly according to plan.
But that it will be interesting to see if he uses the word "mistakes," we don't know that he will. We're told to watch for that. But they also will make the case that this administration has learned as it goes, as you must do in wartime, and that it does not dwell, it moves on and will win the war.
And he will say that and then will pivot to make the case that Kerry and Edwards are not prepared to take over the war on terrorism. That is what Republicans think, Anderson, the president did not do last week. He did not explain and defend the policy before making the pivot to the attack. It will be interesting to watch Dick Cheney do that tonight, try to do that, anyway.
COOPER: It, John, acknowledging mistakes, is that something new? I mean, has he been doing that on the campaign trail? Is that something that's just come out because of the statements made by Rumsfeld and by Ambassador Bremer?
KING: Well, he'll be asked about those statements, I believe, tonight. And again, we need to watch to see if he actually uses the word "mistakes." We are told the vice president is very cognizant that many viewers found the president a bit arrogant last week, that he did not directly answer the challenges to his Iraq policy.
So the vice president, we are told, wants to explain it and defend it, and in doing so, it is prepared to say yes, in any war there are setbacks, in any war the plan has to change from about five minutes out, that you run into difficulties, and you must adapt and adjust.
It will be interesting to see the exact language he chooses in that, because they do believe that if he does that just right, it can put the Democrats back on their heels just a bit, because one of the key arguments from Senator Kerry has been that this president, this White House, will never admit a mistake.
COOPER: Two words to watch out for the H-word, Halliburton, and the M-word, mistakes. John King, thanks for that.
Shots fired at a Bush-Cheney campaign office. That story tops our look at what's going on cross-country tonight.
Knoxville, Tennessee, police say bullets were fired from a car this morning, shattered some glass in the front doors of the campaign headquarters. No one was hurt. Shooter still at large.
Washington, D.C., now, flu vaccine shortage. Believe it or not, the Health and Human Services Department is urging a voluntary rationing of flu shots after British regulators abruptly shut down a major supplier, cutting in half the U.S. supply. Now, the CDC says this is not an emergency, but asks those who don't need the vaccine to wait.
Buffalo, New York, now, John Lennon's killer denied parole. Today marks the third time Mark David Chapman's request has been denied. Chapman will remain in a maximum security prison, where he is serving a 20-year-to-life sentence for the shooting death of the former Beatle.
In New York, Martha Stewart witness cleared. A federal jury has acquitted a Secret Service ink expert who was accused of lying on the stand during the Stewart trial. Remember that? Stewart's lawyers had said the perjury charges would play a large role in their appeal.
And near Denver, Colorado, dust in the wind. Take a look at this. A band of thunderstorms yesterday spawned some 11 tornadoes within 40 minutes. Hard to believe. Twisters destroyed a mobile home and damaged a barn. No injuries were reported. Amazing images, though.
That's a quick look at stories cross-country tonight.
Coming up next on 360, earthquakes, steam, and rock slides. Mount St. Helens' slow release of nature's fury. Is the big burst just days away? We'll take a close look at that.
Also tonight, a rodeo collapse, dozens injured when the stands gave away. It was all captured on tape. And crashing the party, Ralph Nader's running mate wasn't invited to the debate tonight, but he is joining us live. He's got some choice words to say about the two parties.
And 360 into the "CROSSFIRE," real voters take on Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson. Can they stand the heat?
All that ahead.
Let's take a look at your picks first, the most popular stories on CNN.com right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And welcome back to Cleveland, Ohio. We're less than two hours away from tonight's vice presidential debate, Cheney and Edwards going head to head, face to face. Should be a very interesting evening indeed, two clashing styles. We'll have more on that in a moment.
But first, the weather forecast for parts of Washington state today didn't call for rain, it called for ash, and with it, a 100 percent chance of steam. The two, of course, are coming from Mount St. Helens, where geologists are once again getting more signs of an imminent eruption.
Here's CNN's Miguel Marquez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a fight between fire and ice as molten rock from deep down pushes toward the surface. Geologists say it is cooled by a lake being created from a section of glacier that surrounds the volcanic dome, the eruptions so far only a warmup for the main event.
CARL THORNBER, U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY: We just popped the top on the pressure cooker, you know, that little thing that's over on the side on your pressure cooker, that that went PSSSSSSSS.
MARQUEZ: Since the volcano roared back to life, the lake and the glacier, up to 500 feet deep, has been pushed skyward 150 feet. Geologists believe this indicates that gas-rich new magma is pushing to get out. The best sign of this, the physical changes to the volcanic dome.
THORNBER: We talked about the amount of deformation of the dome itself a couple of times, and that's a lot of volume. That's, you know, 10 million cubic meters.
MARQUEZ: Between the glacier and the dome is the lake. Every time Mount St. Helens blows off steam, the lake bubbles and boils. Geologists believe the volcanic dome is acting like a plug, older, solidified magma on top keeping the new, more explosive magma from reaching the surface. Geologists also believe it's only a matter of time before the new magma pops the plug. THORNBER: We're coming closer, you know, that that concept of magma actually rising to the surface seems to be getting a little more play in our scientific discussions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUEZ: Now, while it may look right now that this Mount St. Helens is in the midst of another steam eruption, it's actually just ash blowing north right out of the crater itself.
One thing that scientists said was interesting about today's eruption is that there was no seismic activity to say it was coming today, and right after it, all of the earthquakes dropped off. But now, they say, the pressure is building underneath the mountain again, readying for another explosion or eruption, Anderson.
COOPER: So much happening underneath the earth. Miguel Marquez, thanks very much for that.
Overseas now, an Israeli airstrike in Gaza tops our look at what's going on around the world in the uplink.
Rising smoke marks the spot where an Israeli drone fired a rocket, killing two suspected Palestinian militants, this after Israeli and Palestinian officials started indirect talks to end Israel's offensive in Gaza and at stopping Palestinian rocket attacks.
Gonaives, Haiti, now, the death toll is still climbing. Health officials said today -- and look at this, more rioting. It is a mess. More than 3,000 people were killed, 3,000. Devastating floods from Hurricane Jeanne. Meanwhile, survivors are simply desperate for food. Nearly 2,500 tons of food from the U.N. is stuck back in Port-au- Prince because of political violence. Protesters there are marching through the streets demanding the return of ousted President Jean- Bertrand Aristide. He is in South Africa.
Noronito (ph), Ecuador, now, rodeo bleachers collapsed, crushing a crowd. At least 70 -- take a look at this -- at least 70 people -- oy -- 70 people wounded in Sunday's accident. Police investigators say that bad construction and overcrowding is to blame. No one was killed, thankfully.
That's tonight's uplink.
Coming up next on 360, the tale of two men, Dick Cheney, experienced and somber, John Edwards, they say, optimistic and a newcomer. Tonight, a clash of words and ideas and, yes, style. What you need to watch for in tonight's debate. That is coming up.
Plus, taking on the GOP and the Democrats. He's been shut out of this debate, but Ralph Nader's VP pick joins us live to share some choice words for both parties.
And a little later, Terry McAuliffe and Ed Gillespie, heads of the DNC and the RNC, square off right here, their own debate. And our audience gets to ask them the tough questions tonight, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we're covering all the angles.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We have a very diverse crowd here of students from Case Western Reserve University, we got Democrats, we got Republicans. There's one guy even who wants Lou Dobbs -- look at this, he wants Lou Dobbs for president. He even brought Lou Dobbs's book. I don't know. All right. All right. Yes, it's one guy, like, Yeah, Lou Dobbs. All right.
Some students on the Case Western campus may play the old debate drinking game tonight. You know, if John Edwards mentions Halliburton, they take a shot. If Dick Cheney mentions trial lawyer, they take a shot. Let's hope they're only sipping, because you're likely to hear both words from the candidates tonight an awful lot.
It's going to be a clash of words and style, and that is definitely raw politics.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Tonight, it'll be a duel of opposites.
EDWARDS: This president needs to get out of fantasyland and come back (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
COOPER: John Edwards' biggest strength, his dazzling smile and his smooth tongue helped him sway jurors as a trial lawyer and won fans during the Democratic primaries.
EDWARDS: We can do something to bring jobs back to replace the jobs that we've lost.
COOPER: His modest background and populist rhetoric ring true to many in middle America.
EDWARDS: Somewhere in America, a mother sits at her kitchen table. She can't sleep because she's worried. She can't pay her bills.
COOPER: Yet John Edwards has one huge weakness, Republicans say. He's yet to finish his first term as U.S. senator.
BAY BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN CAUSE: He's a nice guy, he's likable, he's quick on his feet, but is he ready to be the commander in chief?
COOPER: And experience is Vice President Dick Cheney's biggest strength.
CHENEY: Proud of my service in Washington for 25 years...
COOPER: He was Gerald Ford's chief of staff in the '70s, and the first President Bush's secretary of defense. He also served five terms as a congressman from Wyoming. Republicans think the agreement that the two men should sit around a table benefits Dick Cheney, because he's more comfortable in a conversational setting, like in 2000.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, 2000)
CHENEY: And I too want to avoid any personal attacks. I promise not to bring up your singing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Dick Cheney has a big weakness, Democrats say, and it's spelled with an H -- Halliburton.
TAD DEVINE, SENIOR KERRY ADVISER: Dick Cheney, for his lifetime and his public career, has stood up for powerful interests. And John Edwards has stood up for the little guy and fought for middle-class families. That's what this debate's about, and that's what this election's about.
COOPER: But tonight's debate will not really be about these two number twos.
CHENEY: George Bush is a different kind of president.
EDWARDS: The next president of the United States, John Kerry.
COOPER: Making a first-class impression in a third-person debate, now, that's raw politics.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So the format of this debate was negotiated with the same intensity as some peace treaties, a 32-page memorandum of understanding ruling everything from what the stage looks like to what the temperature of the room is. Conventional wisdom says Dick Cheney got what he wanted.
Let's see what Alan Schroeder thinks. He's a Northeastern University professor who's written a book on presidential debates. He joins us now from Boston.
Thanks very much for being with us, professor.
PROF. ALAN SCHROEDER, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: You're welcome.
COOPER: Now, let's talk about the format a little bit. Who do you think it favors? It's a desk format, both men will be seated.
SCHROEDER: Yes, it's what I would call the Washington Sunday morning talk show format. And that, of course, favors Cheney, because he was almost born in a chair on a talk show on -- in Washington on Sunday morning. And Edwards is somebody who likes to move around a lot.
COOPER: I didn't know that's where he was born. SCHROEDER: Edwards likes to move around a lot. He's a much more empathetic figure. He has almost an evangelical style as a debater. So having him sitting is really restrictive to him.
COOPER: So how as a debater who's used to walking around, how does he counteract that? I mean, how does he try to make the table work for him?
SCHROEDER: Well, I think there's another advantage that Edwards has, and that is that the shots are going to be really tight. And Edwards is a good-looking guy, he has a wide range of facial expressions, he has a good voice. He's a very good speaker. So I think on the closeups, he's actually going to look pretty good.
COOPER: I'm told that Ronald Reagan used to practice his cutaway shots, obviously something I guess, or perhaps something President Bush did, but perhaps didn't to great effect at the last debate. Do both men do that this time?
SCHROEDER: Well, I think they'll both be very conscious of the notion of the reaction shots after what happened last time with George W. Bush, the man of 1,000 faces. So I think that they're going to be very aware that the camera could be on them at any time.
In Cheney's case, what he has is this just really calm, centered presence that nothing seems to rattle him, and that actually works pretty well on TV. So you do have this hugely contrasting style.
COOPER: I think I misspoke. It was President Clinton who used to practice those cutaway shots, not President Reagan.
How aggressive can the candidates be? I mean, in this kind of table setting, it's much more -- it seems much more personal.
SCHROEDER: Well, yes, the problem is that you're literally right next to the person that you're debating with, and that tends to moderate. You can't really demonize the person if he's right there in front of you.
But on the other hand, I don't think it's going to be the lovefest that Joe Lieberman and Dick Cheney had four years ago. Obviously, there's a lot more of an undercurrent here, and I think the expectations are pretty high on the part of the audience that this is going to be a pretty lively exchange.
COOPER: It will be a fascinating exchange. Alan Schroeder, appreciate you joining us. Thanks very much.
SCHROEDER: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Coming up next on 360, Cheney and Edwards, ready to go at it. We are less than two hours away from the debate.
Plus, we are taking the campaigns 360. They're answering your questions, unscripted, off the cuff. Terry McAuliffe, Ed Gillespie from the DNC and the RNC, and Ralph Nader's running mate as well, coming up. Cut out of the debate, he joins us live.
A lot ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And welcome back to this special edition of "360" in Cleveland Ohio, in anticipation of the debate about 90 minutes away now, Vice President Dick Cheney and his Democratic rival, his opposition, Senator John Edwards.
I'm joined here at the Cleveland Museum of Art by my colleague, Wolf Blitzer, and over at the debate bench itself by Judy Woodruff and Paula Zahn, all of whom will be covering the doings tonight.
A lot to talk about. Paula, what's coming up at 8:30? What are you going to be looking for, at 8 p.m.?
PAULA ZAHN, HOST, "PRIME TIME POLITICS": Well, we're going to be talking with one of the men who has been spending a lot of time with Vice President Cheney, getting him ready for tonight's debate.
I guess the one thing we all couldn't have anticipated is all this noise surrounding Iraq tonight and some comments the secretary of defense made yesterday, saying there was no hard evidence linking Saddam to 9/11 and al Qaeda.
And then Paul Bremer, of course, who was very involved in setting up the provisional government of Iraq, now coming out and saying there were not enough troops on the ground at the time of the turnover.
So that is a clear line of attack we expect to talk about and get some insights from the man who's been working with the vice president.
And then, obviously, we have all -- Judy and I have listened here for weeks and weeks on end to these campaign speeches. We know exactly where the vice president is going to try to make some mileage when it comes to what he will call John Edwards' inexperience.
So there's a lot to keep an eye on tonight, and one of the things Judy's going to come along with Joe Klein tonight from "TIME" magazine to talk about some of the do's and don'ts for both candidates to abide by.
COOPER: We'll be watching that at 8 p.m.
Judy, as you watch this debate tonight, what are you going to be looking for? What should viewers at home be looking for?
JUDY WOODRUFF, HOST, "INSIDE POLITICS": Well, No. 1, looking to see who's going to stay on the offensive, keeping the other guy on the defensive, but primary who is doing the most for the guy at the top of the ticket.
You know, so much is said about -- about Cheney and about Edwards and how they compare, but we all know that this is all about Kerry and Bush. That's how most people decide what they're going to do. There's some unfinished business left over from the first debate. I think John Edwards, for example, needs to clear up some of the inconsistencies that were still left hanging after the last debate.
And Dick Cheney probably needs to make some arguments, to complete some arguments that President Bush didn't quite finish last Thursday night, defending the war in Iraq.
So they both have their work cut out for them.
COOPER: And Wolf, what are you watching for?
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS": I'm going to be watching to see if John Edwards really tries to go for the -- on the attack, goes for the jugular against the vice president, whether he comes across as a collegial, kind of a nice guy, very positive, along the lines of what Joe Lieberman did four years ago, or whether he comes out swinging and comes out tough, which a lot of Democrats want him to do.
They want him to really go after Dick Cheney, but probably more than that, they want him to go after the president of the United States.
It sort of goes against John Edwards' nature to do that in this kind of a format, sitting around a table, one on one, "Meet the Press" or whatever. But if he does that, Democrats will be happy.
But he's got one problem, though. He's got to make sure he shows respect for the vice president of the United States. A lot of people will be angry if he doesn't.
COOPER: All right. Lots to watch for. Wolf Blitzer, thanks very much for that.
Well, as the vice president candidates meet tonight, expect the news of the day to -- to be front and center, and there has been a lot of news today on Iraq and on troop levels.
Ed Gillespie is chairman of the Republican National Committee. He joins us tonight. And Terry McAuliffe, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee. Both gentlemen are here.
Gentlemen, thanks very much for being with us.
Ed, let me start off by asking you a question. What -- I know it's a little hard with this crowd.
ED GILLESPIE, CHAIRMAN, RNC: I can't believe it.
COOPER: Ed, how likely is Dick Cheney to talk about these statements made by Ambassador Bremer about troop levels in Iraq, Ambassador Bremer coming out, surprising some people by saying there were not enough troops in Iraq on the ground when the looting started?
GILLESPIE: Anderson, I'm sure it will come up, and I'm sure the vice president will point out that the troop levels are set by the generals. The president has every time deferred to the generals to tell him what they need on the ground.
Ambassador Bremer says there are enough troops on the ground now. But looking back, back then he doesn't think there were enough troops. But that's not what the general's estimation was, and that was not their assessment. And that's who the president has said all along he was going to listen to.
COOPER: So far -- so far, though the White House hasn't come out and said whether or not Ambassador Bremer actually requested more troops back a year ago. News reports said that he had requested 50,000 more troops.
Do you know? Did he request them?
GILLESPIE: I don't know, Anderson. I know what they've said is that they listen to the generals to make the determination as to what the troop strength ought to be in Iraq, and that continues to be the president's approach today.
COOPER: Chairman McAuliffe, is Edwards going to hit this hard tonight?
TERRY MCAULIFFE, CHAIRMAN, DNC: Sure he's going to. You have Ambassador Bremer just come out and say that he continually warned the White House that we needed more troops over on the ground in Iraq.
This comes on top of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld saying there were no ties between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. And it comes on top of the secretary of state, Colin Powell, two weeks ago saying the deteriorating situation in Iraq, Senator McCain, and Senator Hagel.
We've got a mess on our hands in Iraq, and Dick Cheney was one of the architects of what we were doing in Iraq.
COOPER: Both candidates aren't allowed to ask direct questions to the other man. I suppose, though, if -- if Edwards was able to ask a question to Dick Cheney, he might ask him, does Dick Cheney still believe that there were links between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. Does he?
GILLESPIE: Well, there were links between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. That's not just Dick Cheney's estimation. That is the -- that is not just Dick Cheney's assessment, that is the assessment of the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, which on eight different occasions in their report on September 11 found connections between al Qaeda -- al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's regime.
COOPER: But Dick Cheney just yesterday said there was no intelligence on that, that he didn't see the linkage?
GILLESPIE: That's regarding September 11. No one has made the case that Saddam Hussein was involved in September 11. That's different from saying there were contacts in the relationship between Saddam Hussein's administration and al Qaeda. And in the Senate bipartisan intelligence committee report there are eight different examples of that cited.
COOPER: Terry, I see you smiling.
MCAULIFFE: Well, the bottom line is, listen, George Bush and Dick Cheney tried to convince America and the world that Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons, they could fire missiles with 45 minutes. They said they knew exactly where the weapons of mass destruction were.
At the end of the day, Anderson, none of it was true. George Bush and Dick Cheney rushed us to war with no plan what to do with our troops after major combat operations.
War over, we've got a mess on our hands in Iraq. We've got to change it. George Bush and Dick Cheney are like ostriches with their heads in the sand. We've got a problem. Let's fix it.
GILLESPIE: Anderson, the fact is Senator Kerry is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee and was one of the most forceful advocates of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein to our national security.
It's -- it's not a matter of having your head in a sand, it's a matter of having your finger in the wind. And that's what Senator Kerry continually has, wavering back and forth when it comes to the political dynamics.
COOPER: Terry, if Dick Cheney could ask a direct question of Senator Edwards, he might ask him, does Senator Edwards believe it was a mistake to overthrow Saddam Hussein? Does he?
MCAULIFFE: Well, clearly the way George Bush went about doing it, he does. There's no way the United States Senate has the same intelligence as the president of the United States.
I remind you that George Bush on August 6, in his presidential daily brief, was briefed that al Qaeda was to attack the United States of America. George Bush did not leave his month-long vacation. He didn't call the FAA. He didn't do anything. He should have done something.
COOPER: But did you say he thinks it was a mistake to overturn Saddam Hussein? Did you say he thinks it was a mistake to overthrow Saddam Hussein?
MCAULIFFE: The way in which George Bush went at it, of course he did.
Listen, Saddam Hussein, you know what? He was a 72-year-old dictator who had lost half his army. And many of the weapons that they were using in Iraq had been provided for by Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld before, and it was a mistake.
COOPER: And Ed, I want you to respond. Then we've got to go. GILLESPIE: The fact is, Terry knows full well that Senator Kerry and all of the members in the Senate had access to the National Intelligence Estimate. They themselves asked for it; it was made available to them. They came to the same conclusion.
There's a reason Senator Kerry voted for the war in Iraq. There's a reason he voted against it later on and declared himself an antiwar candidate and voted against the funding for the troops, because he did so under political pressure.
But the fact is he said -- he has said that knowing what he knows now, he still would have voted for the Iraq war resolution. He's since switched again. I can't tell where he is. But today he seems to be an anti-war candidate.
And I think that is -- I've got to say, Anderson, if I can make one more point, I think that this notion that we should have a global test before we are able to defend ourselves and our national security and allow France, Germany, Russia, to tell us whether or not we made a passing grade before we act in our security interest is a real problem that remains from that debate.
COOPER: Does John Kerry want a global test?
MCAULIFFE: I'll tell you where John Kerry is. He's on his way to become the next president of the United States.
COOPER: We're going to end it there. Terry McAuliffe, Ed Gillespie, thanks very much.
Coming up next on "360," an interview with one of the vice presidential candidates, Peter Camejo. He's Ralph Nader's running mate, and tells you why he thinks he should be included in the debate.
Also tonight, GRL the "360" way. We'll turn the questions over to the audience and let them ask the "CROSSFIRE" guys about the White House race.
First is the "360" challenge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): How many U.S. presidents were born in Ohio? One, three, seven or none?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Crashing the party. He's not allowed to debate, but Ralph Nader's running mate is joining us live. "360" next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COOPER (voice-over): How many presidents were born in Ohio? The answer is seven: Ulysses S. Grant, Rutherford B. Hayes, James A. Garfield, Benjamin Harrison, William McKinley, William H. Taft, and Warren G. Harding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, only two invitations were sent out for tonight's debate, of course: one for Dick Cheney and the other one for John Edwards. Noticeably absent from the guest list was that other vice presidential candidate, Peter Camejo.
As Ralph Nader's running mate, Camejo's hoping to win the White House for the Independent Party. He says it's those other two parties that are trying to keep his voice out of the picture. Peter Camejo joins me now.
Peter, thanks very much for being with us.
You and Nader are running basically one to two percent in most polls. Why should you be in these debates?
PETER CAMEJO (I), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, we represent the overwhelming majority of the opinion in the world. We're opposed to the U.S. occupation of Iraq. We think it was wrong to support Saddam Hussein for 20 years. We're against the Patriot Act.
COOPER: But you don't represent the overwhelming opinion of most Americans, given the -- by most polls. So why should you be allowed to debate?
CAMEJO: There's tens of millions of people in America that are opposed to this war and really would like to vote for Nader. But because we don't have runoffs, because we don't really have a free election in that sense, they're going to Kerry.
In fact, Kerry, the majority of Kerry's vote doesn't agree with what he's saying. Because Kerry's basically saying, "I can do Bush's policies better than Bush."
And so we're having a debate about who can do it better, not with the platform (ph). And we disagree with Bush's platform.
COOPER: You really don't think there's much of a difference between these two candidates?
CAMEJO: Well, I think there are -- I think there are some differences. I think the two parties are somewhat different. But on the major questions of the day: saving our environment, labor issues, Kyoto Protocol, world court, the war, the Patriot Act, they're in agreement.
Kerry gave George Bush 18 standing ovations in January. That's hard to do with somebody you don't like.
COOPER: Do you care -- You're not going to win. Do you care who does win?
CAMEJO: I care a lot about opening up the electoral system and democracy in America like the early abolitionists. They ran against the two parties saying they're wrong with what they're doing. That's what Nader is saying, and I suggest people go to VoteNader.org so that they can see what our positions are.
COOPER: And of course, to the argument which I'm sure you are asked a million times a day, that you're taking votes away from one candidate.
CAMEJO: Not at all. Not at all. If anybody is taking votes away, it's Kerry from Nader, because Nader is against the war, and so are tens of millions of people, disagree with this occupation.
The thing is if we had an open electoral system, if there was a runoff, so people wouldn't fear voting for a choice. We've closed the system down. We want to open it up. We want there to be more democracy in America, for people to be able to vote for what they're for.
COOPER: Isn't that more of a long-term goal, though?
CAMEJO: No, it's immediate. We need it now.
COOPER: In this election, isn't it really between Bush and Kerry?
CAMEJO: No.
COOPER: And isn't it hard to argue that you're not taking votes away from either one?
CAMEJO: No. No, because look, the corporations have taken over these two parties; money controls them. And Nader is saying this is wrong, and we have to start standing up against it. And we're calling for a vote.
I mean, look, Nader opposes the Taft-Hartley Law. So does the whole labor movement. Who else stands for this? Nobody in this campaign.
And on all of these major issues, you see a real deep difference. Our minimum wage is 30 percent lower today than it was in 1968.
COOPER: Who do you think is going to do better tonight?
CAMEJO: I think that -- that I will do the best if I could be in there. And of course, we're excluded even though we represent the majority point of view.
COOPER: All right. You didn't answer the question, but I'll let it go.
CAMEJO: OK.
COOPER: Peter Camejo, we appreciate you joining us.
CAMEJO: OK.
COOPER: Today's "Buzz" is this: "Should third party candidates be allowed in the debates?" What do you think? Log on to CNN.com/360. Cast your vote. We'll have results at the end of our program tonight.
And coming up on "360" next, those guys from the "CROSSFIRE," Tucker Carlson and Paul Begala, right here live to weigh in on what the candidates must do to score big tonight. And they're taking audience questions.
Also, I won't be the one answering all the questions, thankfully. We'll see what our audience comes up with. All that and more live from Cleveland. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We are just a little more than an hour until the vice presidential debate. And frankly after a jam-packed hour here, I'm getting a little tired of asking some questions, so it's time to see if this audience is up to the task.
Joining us now to answer the questions, CNN "CROSSFIRE" hosts Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
Gentlemen, thank you for subjecting yourself to the crowd.
All right. Our first question. What's your name and your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is James Roach (ph) and I'm from Midway, Kentucky. This question is for Paul.
John Edwards is known for his sunshine personality. Will he be able to show that side tonight, or will he be forced to match Cheney's critical approach?
PAULA BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": I hope he doesn't show too much sunshine. I want some fisticuffs. This is important. We've got 138,000 guys out in the desert with no exit strategy and a president who doesn't know what he's doing. I hope John Edwards -- you like that? Gets in there and fights about it. Absolutely.
COOPER: That's called playing to the crowd, Paul.
Tucker?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": I'd be pretty nervous if I were John Edwards. Cheney is good -- not a great speech giver, and he's good -- he's good at Q&A.
But Edwards has a lot more riding on this than Cheney does. I mean, it's over and out for Dick Cheney. Either, you know, Bush loses now or four years. That's when he retires. He doesn't need it. Edwards plans to be president or hopes to be. There's a lot riding on this for him. And I bet he's pretty tense.
COOPER: All right. Let's see, your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Judy Rosen (ph). I'm from University Heights.
My question is why is President Bush so unconcerned about having alienated the global community?
CARLSON: I guess the Democratic argument is that he's just plain evil so he doesn't care one way or another.
I don't think he is unconcerned. You know, look, everybody recognizes it's better to be loved than to be hated. But sort of the under girding theme of the Bush administration is the United States controls its national security, period, whether or not Belgium likes it.
And in fact, I think that's a pretty compelling argument. You don't want to alienate people on purpose, but sometimes you have to.
BEGALA: Well, no, actually America is stronger when we lead the world the way that John F. Kennedy did and Ronald Reagan did on the right. And John Kerry thinks that we ought to move together, and make -- he believes that America's prestige around the world is a force multiplier, and that we wouldn't have 90 percent of the casualties and 90 percent of the costs if we had some allies in this deal.
COOPER: All right. Let's get another question here. You have a question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Brandon Bradford from Detroit, representing K State (ph) basketball. Go Spartans.
BEGALA: There you go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is for Tucker. Why will America be a safer place if President Bush is reelected?
CARLSON: Well, I mean, the argument the Bush people make is that the president has a clear understanding that they're evil and we're not. He believes in the moral superiority of America. And the president is supposed to believe in the moral superiority of America.
And with John Kerry, it's not so clear that he believes that America -- truly -- no, not that John Kerry's not a patriot. Of course that's not the argument, but the argument is that John Kerry sees the world in a way that's so complex it's weak.
BEGALA: Look, no, I mean, even George W. Bush, with a Ph.D. in the obvious knows that we're good and the terrorists are evil. That's not the tricky part.
The tricky part is trying to get the rest of the world to help us out in this global war on terror, which somehow the president has alienated all of these allies. And for no other reason, we've got to get a president in there who will help us win the war on terror. That takes allies.
CARLSON: If I can just point out the obvious: no matter who is president, France and Germany are not sending troops to Iraq. Sorry. All right?
COOPER: Get another question in here. What's your question and your name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm Heidi Luddiwick (ph) from Kent State University, and my question is for the both of you.
Voter registration, especially for young voters, is up tremendously right now. How do you think it will affect the debate and the issues for young voters?
BEGALA: That's a great point. I hope that Gwen Ifill, who's the moderator tonight and a great, wonderful journalist, I hope she brings that up. Because you all have a lot more at stake in this election than old guys like me. OK?
I mean, my job is not going to get shipped over to China, maybe. I'm not going to get shipped out to Iraq, and I'm not going to have to pay off the national debt. You are.
And so you all ought to register and vote. At this point I don't even care which party, but you better get involved in this, because it's your rear end that's at stake, not mine.
COOPER: All right. Let me go to one more question. One more question. Your name and question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Shawn Dayton (ph) from Toledo, Ohio. Question for Paul. In this age of terrorism, can America really afford the risk of a vice president as inexperienced as John Edwards?
BEGALA: Great question. I think what Edwards -- what Edwards would say is, what have we gotten from Dick Cheney's experience. He said that we'd be greeted as liberators, and we weren't. He said there were weapons of mass destruction, and there wasn't. He said we didn't need 200,000 troops, and we did.
Cheney has been wrong about all the things he was supposed to be an expert on.
CARLSON: I think -- I think we're being unfair to John Edwards. This is a man who's chased a lot of ambulances. That's more dangerous than it looks. I think...
BEGALA: I'm serious.
COOPER: All right. We're got to leave it there.
BEGALA: I'm serious. COOPER: Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. "360" next, taking the No. 2 job, take that to "The Nth Degree."
Someone brought their dog in the crowd, which I just love.
Also, first today's "Buzz": "Should third party candidates be allowed to the debates?" Log on to CNN.com/360. Cast your vote now. Results when we come back.
There you go. There's the dog.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And now the "Buzz." Earlier we asked, "Should third party candidates be allowed in the debates?" More than 18,000 of you voted. Here's what you said: 62 percent said yes; 38 no.
Not a scientific poll, but it is the "Buzz." Thanks for voting.
Tonight, taking second prizes to the "Nth Degree," does the name -- there's a dog licking my ear. Does the name Daniel V. Tompkins ring a bell? No? What about George M. Dallas? William Wheeler? Levi P. Morton?
What if I told you that they were all very high-ranking public officials in these United States, almost as high ranking as you can possibly get?
Yes, they all served as vice president, as did George Clinton and William King and Garret A. Hobart.
Presidents can be forgotten as well, of course. You don't hear an awful lot these days about William Henry Harrison or Rutherford B. Hayes. But the forgotten chief executive is the exception, whereas the forgotten vice president is pretty much the rule.
Hannibal Hamlin, Schuyler Colfax, Henry Wilson. It's a peculiar place these figures occupy. They are in the history books and almanacs, indelible parts of an official record. Their names were literally chiseled in stone in more than a few places.
And yet, offer $20 to anyone who can name Grover Cleveland's vice president -- anybody? Didn't think so. The odds are pretty good you'd be walking around the with very same double sawbuck for months.
The answer, of course, well, by the way, is Thomas A. Hendricks of Ohio. I had to look that one up.
Which is where the latest contestants for that very important post hardly anyone remembers will be duking it out later tonight in just about an hour.
That's it for us. The debate is an hour away. Paula Zahn is standing by just across the street at the debate site to continue our coverage.
Paula, good evening.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 5, 2004 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening from Cleveland, Ohio. I'm Anderson Cooper.
The crowds are excited, the debate is tonight, and Cheney and Edwards prepare for the faceoff of a lifetime.
360 starts now.
The running mates take center stage. Tonight in Cleveland, Vice President Dick Cheney goes face to face and head to head with Senator John Edwards.
Who's the better debater? An uphill battle for John Edwards, or will his trial lawyer experience give him an edge over the political veteran Dick Cheney?
"CROSSFIRE" in the crossfire, our gang of political experts take questions from a tough Cleveland audience. Will the left or the right win out?
Ambassador Paul Bremer speaks out. Not enough troops in Iraq, says the former U.S. administrator. But is that really what he meant to say?
And Mount St. Helens, the sleeping giant awakening, venting out steam and ash. But is a bigger eruption still to come? Volcano watchers on high alert.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Cleveland, Ohio, this is a special edition of ANDERSON COOPER 360.
COOPER: And good evening again.
The excitement is building here at Cleveland, Ohio. Welcome to another special edition of 360.
Tonight, can Senator John Edwards continue the momentum John Kerry picked up after last week's debate? Or will Dick Cheney's age and experience reignite the Bush campaign's push for the White House?
In two hours, both men square off right here in Ohio on the campus of Case Western Reserve University. Tonight, we cover all the angles, as well as some startling and contradictory statements about Iraq and alleged ties between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.
Candy Crowley is covering the Kerry campaign, and John King the Bush-Cheney ticket.
But first, a preview of the debate that just might make a real difference in this campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): With President Bush making no campaign appearances today, and John Kerry's limited campaign schedule, all eyes were on the number twos.
SEN. JOHN KERRY, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Tonight, John Edwards is going to square off with Dick Cheney, and I'll tell you where my money is.
COOPER: The only meeting between the vice presidential candidates will be a study in contrasts, the serious, steady, tongue- like-a-dagger Dick Cheney.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When it comes to diplomacy, it looks to me like John Kerry should stick to windsurfing.
JOE LOCKHART, KERRY CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: If Dick Cheney wants to argue that his experience bodes, you know, bodes him well, look at the experience, look at what they've done over the last four years.
KATAYAMA: Versus the, Oh, gosh, I'm just a smalltown boy who cares about the little guy, John Edwards.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS, DEMOCRATIC VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: At the heart of this campaign, our campaign, is to make sure that everyone has the same kind of opportunities that I had growing up, no matter where you live, who your family is, or what the color of your skin. This is the America we believe in.
MARY MATALIN, BUSH CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: They put him on there because he was such a good talker, and that he's won tens of millions as a trial lawyer.
COOPER: Expect the vice president to bring up 9/11 and the trial lawyer business tonight repeatedly, just as John Edwards will no doubt connect Mr. Cheney to his former company, Halliburton.
It's a faceoff that could have extra meaning following last week's debate between the presidential candidates.
STEPHEN KOFF, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER": People may be giving the Kerry-Edwards ticket a fresh look after the other night. I don't know that one bad debate is enough for the Bush campaign to worry, to throw in the towel, but it's enough for some undecided voters to say, Gee, what's this Kerry guy all about?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And there have been some fascinating developments today that may have a big impact on tonight's debate.
L. Paul Bremer, former American overseer of Iraq, and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld may not have deliberately set out to spice things up ahead of today's debate, but spice things up they did anyway, with statements that ought to give both debaters a little something to chew on, or perhaps choke on.
CNN's senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former Iraq administrator Paul Bremer now admits what critics have been saying for a year and a half, the U.S. did not send enough troops to Iraq to keep the peace.
Bremer is quoted in a press release as saying, "We never had enough troops on the ground." That from an insurance group Bremer addressed Monday. And in remarks at DePauw University last month that drew little attention at the time, Bremer went even further, telling a student forum, "The one thing that would have improved the situation would have been having more troops in Iraq at the beginning and throughout."
Bremer second-guessing is political dynamite and was seized on by John Kerry to buttress his argument the war plan was flawed.
KERRY: Now Paul Bremer is saying what a terrible mistake it was. The president needs to take accountability for his own judgments.
MCINTYRE: In a clarifying statement, Bremer says there are now enough troops in Iraq, and insists his comments referred to his belief when he arrived in May of 2003 that more U.S. or Iraqi forces were needed to contain looting in the immediate aftermath of the invasion. At the time, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld dismissed the looting, saying, "War is imperfect, and stuff happens."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, May 2003)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It's untidy, and freedom is untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Bremer says the U.S. paid a big price for not stopping the looting, because it established an atmosphere of lawlessness.
It's not clear whether he argued for more troops either with military commanders or with Rumsfeld, but he said, "Although I raised this issue a number of times with our government, I should have been even more insistent."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And Anderson, it's the second time in two days that senior officials have had to issue clarifying statements about what they said. Just yesterday in New York, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said there was no strong, hard evidence of links between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. Today, he issued a statement saying he was misunderstood, and that he has acknowledged the links in September of 2002.
COOPER: Got to love those clarifying statements. All right, Jamie McIntyre, thanks for that.
Now, add this to the mix. The final report from investigators looking for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, to be turned in to Congress tomorrow, concludes that Iraq did not possess such weapons in the lead-up to the war. Now, the report also says that Saddam Hussein would have renewed the effort to get them if he could have gotten out from under U.N. sanctions.
All part of the atmosphere facing the two VP candidates tonight.
CNN's Candy Crowley begins with John Edwards.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Bremer steps out on troop levels, Rumsfeld steps back on a Saddam-al Qaeda link. Manna from heaven on the campaign trail.
KERRY: Behind the scenes in all of these discussions and presentations is Dick Cheney, and it's time for the vice president to be accountable and to answer the questions that have arisen.
CROWLEY: And that's it in a nutshell, the Edwards debate strategy, counter Dick Cheney's decades-long edge in experience with Dick Cheney's experience.
EDWARDS: There couldn't be a starker contrast. I do not have the same view. I do not have the same view of the world as Dick Cheney.
CROWLEY: Edwards' town hall meeting Tuesday was a departure from predebate ritual, and part of the predebate set up. As one Democratic strategist put it, Let's just say two events in one day isn't taxing for our candidate.
Oh, and Edwards got in his regular hour-long run.
Cheney has been a tireless campaigner and is only 12 years older than the gene-blessed Edwards. But the message here is deliberate, Cheney, old face. Edwards, new face.
Kerry-Edwards also love that whole courtroom-boardroom thing, Dick Cheney's five years as CEO of -- drumroll -- Halliburton, versus John Edwards' very successful multimillion-dollar career as a personal injury trial lawyer, suing big companies for little people, a Rocky Balboa image he cultivates on the campaign trail.
EDWARDS: I want to say to all of you, when I walk into that debate tonight and I sit down, I am there for you.
CROWLEY: Edwards will literally bring his common touch to the debate hall with him, letting reporters know he has invited as his guest a worker whose plant is closing next year, the working wife of a National Guardsman, a 9/11 widow, and a Gulf War vet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Candy, you've been following the gene-blessed John Edwards, as you called him in your report, for quite a while now. What are you personally going to be looking for in this debate tonight from him?
CROWLEY: Look, I think that he has a threshold test, and that is to be on the stage with a very seasoned sitting vice president and show that he too can be a heartbeat away from the presidency. And even the Kerry campaign will say he has to be perceived through that TV screen as a guy who could step in should anything happen to John Kerry.
So I think that most importantly he has to do that, and second most importantly, he's got to continue the conversation that John Kerry started and keep that focus on the Bush administration and the last four years.
COOPER: Keep the momentum going. All right. Candy Crowley, thanks very much for that.
Of course, a lot of people have been saying the format of this debate doesn't necessarily favor John Edwards, a man who likes to get up and walk, relate to the crowd. This debate tonight behind a table, some say, favors Dick Cheney.
For the view from the other side now, a report at what's at stake for Cheney from CNN senior White House correspondent John King.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Cleveland, once again called on when the president needs a major assist. On debate night, new questions about the Iraq war strategy Vice President Cheney helped shape, questions raised not by Democrats but by Bush administration colleagues Paul Bremer and Donald Rumsfeld.
The man who played Senator John Edwards in Mr. Cheney's mock debates says the vice president knows his biggest challenge tonight is answering Iraq war critics.
REP. ROB PORTMAN (R), OHIO: He believes in his heart, as you know, very strongly that this is the right thing to do for America, because it protects us here at home. And he believes, as Paul Bremer does, and said today in his statement, that it is central to the war against terrorism.
KING: Another Cheney challenge is calming Republican jitters, born of tightening polls and rough reviews of the president's first debate performance.
PORTMAN: I think it probably raised the stakes a bit, but let's face it, this was always going to be an important debate. It's a debate about who's going to be the vice commander in chief, you know, the person that may have to step in and be president of the United States.
KING: On the substance, Team Bush considers this a mismatch. Cheney, a former White House chief of staff, congressman, defense secretary, and vice president, against Edwards, a senator in politics shy of six years.
KEN DUBERSTEIN, FORMER REAGAN CHIEF OF STAFF: One is, you know, good hair, and the other is like a machine gun, dat-dat-dat-dat-dat, with all these facts and understandings of the world.
KING: Four years ago, Democrats were not happy with Senator Joseph Lieberman's performance, and Republicans suggest those memories were a big factor in the Edwards pick this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: ... joins us now.
John, which Dick Cheney are we going to see tonight at this debate? Is it going to be sort of the velvet-gloved Dick Cheney who appeared in the 2000 debate against Lieberman?
KING: We are told the vice president has no plans to be harsh in his attacks tonight. We're also told -- and this will be interesting to watch -- that the vice president is prepared to acknowledge setbacks in Iraq, prepared to acknowledge that not everything has gone exactly according to plan.
But that it will be interesting to see if he uses the word "mistakes," we don't know that he will. We're told to watch for that. But they also will make the case that this administration has learned as it goes, as you must do in wartime, and that it does not dwell, it moves on and will win the war.
And he will say that and then will pivot to make the case that Kerry and Edwards are not prepared to take over the war on terrorism. That is what Republicans think, Anderson, the president did not do last week. He did not explain and defend the policy before making the pivot to the attack. It will be interesting to watch Dick Cheney do that tonight, try to do that, anyway.
COOPER: It, John, acknowledging mistakes, is that something new? I mean, has he been doing that on the campaign trail? Is that something that's just come out because of the statements made by Rumsfeld and by Ambassador Bremer?
KING: Well, he'll be asked about those statements, I believe, tonight. And again, we need to watch to see if he actually uses the word "mistakes." We are told the vice president is very cognizant that many viewers found the president a bit arrogant last week, that he did not directly answer the challenges to his Iraq policy.
So the vice president, we are told, wants to explain it and defend it, and in doing so, it is prepared to say yes, in any war there are setbacks, in any war the plan has to change from about five minutes out, that you run into difficulties, and you must adapt and adjust.
It will be interesting to see the exact language he chooses in that, because they do believe that if he does that just right, it can put the Democrats back on their heels just a bit, because one of the key arguments from Senator Kerry has been that this president, this White House, will never admit a mistake.
COOPER: Two words to watch out for the H-word, Halliburton, and the M-word, mistakes. John King, thanks for that.
Shots fired at a Bush-Cheney campaign office. That story tops our look at what's going on cross-country tonight.
Knoxville, Tennessee, police say bullets were fired from a car this morning, shattered some glass in the front doors of the campaign headquarters. No one was hurt. Shooter still at large.
Washington, D.C., now, flu vaccine shortage. Believe it or not, the Health and Human Services Department is urging a voluntary rationing of flu shots after British regulators abruptly shut down a major supplier, cutting in half the U.S. supply. Now, the CDC says this is not an emergency, but asks those who don't need the vaccine to wait.
Buffalo, New York, now, John Lennon's killer denied parole. Today marks the third time Mark David Chapman's request has been denied. Chapman will remain in a maximum security prison, where he is serving a 20-year-to-life sentence for the shooting death of the former Beatle.
In New York, Martha Stewart witness cleared. A federal jury has acquitted a Secret Service ink expert who was accused of lying on the stand during the Stewart trial. Remember that? Stewart's lawyers had said the perjury charges would play a large role in their appeal.
And near Denver, Colorado, dust in the wind. Take a look at this. A band of thunderstorms yesterday spawned some 11 tornadoes within 40 minutes. Hard to believe. Twisters destroyed a mobile home and damaged a barn. No injuries were reported. Amazing images, though.
That's a quick look at stories cross-country tonight.
Coming up next on 360, earthquakes, steam, and rock slides. Mount St. Helens' slow release of nature's fury. Is the big burst just days away? We'll take a close look at that.
Also tonight, a rodeo collapse, dozens injured when the stands gave away. It was all captured on tape. And crashing the party, Ralph Nader's running mate wasn't invited to the debate tonight, but he is joining us live. He's got some choice words to say about the two parties.
And 360 into the "CROSSFIRE," real voters take on Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson. Can they stand the heat?
All that ahead.
Let's take a look at your picks first, the most popular stories on CNN.com right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And welcome back to Cleveland, Ohio. We're less than two hours away from tonight's vice presidential debate, Cheney and Edwards going head to head, face to face. Should be a very interesting evening indeed, two clashing styles. We'll have more on that in a moment.
But first, the weather forecast for parts of Washington state today didn't call for rain, it called for ash, and with it, a 100 percent chance of steam. The two, of course, are coming from Mount St. Helens, where geologists are once again getting more signs of an imminent eruption.
Here's CNN's Miguel Marquez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a fight between fire and ice as molten rock from deep down pushes toward the surface. Geologists say it is cooled by a lake being created from a section of glacier that surrounds the volcanic dome, the eruptions so far only a warmup for the main event.
CARL THORNBER, U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY: We just popped the top on the pressure cooker, you know, that little thing that's over on the side on your pressure cooker, that that went PSSSSSSSS.
MARQUEZ: Since the volcano roared back to life, the lake and the glacier, up to 500 feet deep, has been pushed skyward 150 feet. Geologists believe this indicates that gas-rich new magma is pushing to get out. The best sign of this, the physical changes to the volcanic dome.
THORNBER: We talked about the amount of deformation of the dome itself a couple of times, and that's a lot of volume. That's, you know, 10 million cubic meters.
MARQUEZ: Between the glacier and the dome is the lake. Every time Mount St. Helens blows off steam, the lake bubbles and boils. Geologists believe the volcanic dome is acting like a plug, older, solidified magma on top keeping the new, more explosive magma from reaching the surface. Geologists also believe it's only a matter of time before the new magma pops the plug. THORNBER: We're coming closer, you know, that that concept of magma actually rising to the surface seems to be getting a little more play in our scientific discussions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUEZ: Now, while it may look right now that this Mount St. Helens is in the midst of another steam eruption, it's actually just ash blowing north right out of the crater itself.
One thing that scientists said was interesting about today's eruption is that there was no seismic activity to say it was coming today, and right after it, all of the earthquakes dropped off. But now, they say, the pressure is building underneath the mountain again, readying for another explosion or eruption, Anderson.
COOPER: So much happening underneath the earth. Miguel Marquez, thanks very much for that.
Overseas now, an Israeli airstrike in Gaza tops our look at what's going on around the world in the uplink.
Rising smoke marks the spot where an Israeli drone fired a rocket, killing two suspected Palestinian militants, this after Israeli and Palestinian officials started indirect talks to end Israel's offensive in Gaza and at stopping Palestinian rocket attacks.
Gonaives, Haiti, now, the death toll is still climbing. Health officials said today -- and look at this, more rioting. It is a mess. More than 3,000 people were killed, 3,000. Devastating floods from Hurricane Jeanne. Meanwhile, survivors are simply desperate for food. Nearly 2,500 tons of food from the U.N. is stuck back in Port-au- Prince because of political violence. Protesters there are marching through the streets demanding the return of ousted President Jean- Bertrand Aristide. He is in South Africa.
Noronito (ph), Ecuador, now, rodeo bleachers collapsed, crushing a crowd. At least 70 -- take a look at this -- at least 70 people -- oy -- 70 people wounded in Sunday's accident. Police investigators say that bad construction and overcrowding is to blame. No one was killed, thankfully.
That's tonight's uplink.
Coming up next on 360, the tale of two men, Dick Cheney, experienced and somber, John Edwards, they say, optimistic and a newcomer. Tonight, a clash of words and ideas and, yes, style. What you need to watch for in tonight's debate. That is coming up.
Plus, taking on the GOP and the Democrats. He's been shut out of this debate, but Ralph Nader's VP pick joins us live to share some choice words for both parties.
And a little later, Terry McAuliffe and Ed Gillespie, heads of the DNC and the RNC, square off right here, their own debate. And our audience gets to ask them the tough questions tonight, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we're covering all the angles.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We have a very diverse crowd here of students from Case Western Reserve University, we got Democrats, we got Republicans. There's one guy even who wants Lou Dobbs -- look at this, he wants Lou Dobbs for president. He even brought Lou Dobbs's book. I don't know. All right. All right. Yes, it's one guy, like, Yeah, Lou Dobbs. All right.
Some students on the Case Western campus may play the old debate drinking game tonight. You know, if John Edwards mentions Halliburton, they take a shot. If Dick Cheney mentions trial lawyer, they take a shot. Let's hope they're only sipping, because you're likely to hear both words from the candidates tonight an awful lot.
It's going to be a clash of words and style, and that is definitely raw politics.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Tonight, it'll be a duel of opposites.
EDWARDS: This president needs to get out of fantasyland and come back (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
COOPER: John Edwards' biggest strength, his dazzling smile and his smooth tongue helped him sway jurors as a trial lawyer and won fans during the Democratic primaries.
EDWARDS: We can do something to bring jobs back to replace the jobs that we've lost.
COOPER: His modest background and populist rhetoric ring true to many in middle America.
EDWARDS: Somewhere in America, a mother sits at her kitchen table. She can't sleep because she's worried. She can't pay her bills.
COOPER: Yet John Edwards has one huge weakness, Republicans say. He's yet to finish his first term as U.S. senator.
BAY BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN CAUSE: He's a nice guy, he's likable, he's quick on his feet, but is he ready to be the commander in chief?
COOPER: And experience is Vice President Dick Cheney's biggest strength.
CHENEY: Proud of my service in Washington for 25 years...
COOPER: He was Gerald Ford's chief of staff in the '70s, and the first President Bush's secretary of defense. He also served five terms as a congressman from Wyoming. Republicans think the agreement that the two men should sit around a table benefits Dick Cheney, because he's more comfortable in a conversational setting, like in 2000.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, 2000)
CHENEY: And I too want to avoid any personal attacks. I promise not to bring up your singing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Dick Cheney has a big weakness, Democrats say, and it's spelled with an H -- Halliburton.
TAD DEVINE, SENIOR KERRY ADVISER: Dick Cheney, for his lifetime and his public career, has stood up for powerful interests. And John Edwards has stood up for the little guy and fought for middle-class families. That's what this debate's about, and that's what this election's about.
COOPER: But tonight's debate will not really be about these two number twos.
CHENEY: George Bush is a different kind of president.
EDWARDS: The next president of the United States, John Kerry.
COOPER: Making a first-class impression in a third-person debate, now, that's raw politics.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So the format of this debate was negotiated with the same intensity as some peace treaties, a 32-page memorandum of understanding ruling everything from what the stage looks like to what the temperature of the room is. Conventional wisdom says Dick Cheney got what he wanted.
Let's see what Alan Schroeder thinks. He's a Northeastern University professor who's written a book on presidential debates. He joins us now from Boston.
Thanks very much for being with us, professor.
PROF. ALAN SCHROEDER, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: You're welcome.
COOPER: Now, let's talk about the format a little bit. Who do you think it favors? It's a desk format, both men will be seated.
SCHROEDER: Yes, it's what I would call the Washington Sunday morning talk show format. And that, of course, favors Cheney, because he was almost born in a chair on a talk show on -- in Washington on Sunday morning. And Edwards is somebody who likes to move around a lot.
COOPER: I didn't know that's where he was born. SCHROEDER: Edwards likes to move around a lot. He's a much more empathetic figure. He has almost an evangelical style as a debater. So having him sitting is really restrictive to him.
COOPER: So how as a debater who's used to walking around, how does he counteract that? I mean, how does he try to make the table work for him?
SCHROEDER: Well, I think there's another advantage that Edwards has, and that is that the shots are going to be really tight. And Edwards is a good-looking guy, he has a wide range of facial expressions, he has a good voice. He's a very good speaker. So I think on the closeups, he's actually going to look pretty good.
COOPER: I'm told that Ronald Reagan used to practice his cutaway shots, obviously something I guess, or perhaps something President Bush did, but perhaps didn't to great effect at the last debate. Do both men do that this time?
SCHROEDER: Well, I think they'll both be very conscious of the notion of the reaction shots after what happened last time with George W. Bush, the man of 1,000 faces. So I think that they're going to be very aware that the camera could be on them at any time.
In Cheney's case, what he has is this just really calm, centered presence that nothing seems to rattle him, and that actually works pretty well on TV. So you do have this hugely contrasting style.
COOPER: I think I misspoke. It was President Clinton who used to practice those cutaway shots, not President Reagan.
How aggressive can the candidates be? I mean, in this kind of table setting, it's much more -- it seems much more personal.
SCHROEDER: Well, yes, the problem is that you're literally right next to the person that you're debating with, and that tends to moderate. You can't really demonize the person if he's right there in front of you.
But on the other hand, I don't think it's going to be the lovefest that Joe Lieberman and Dick Cheney had four years ago. Obviously, there's a lot more of an undercurrent here, and I think the expectations are pretty high on the part of the audience that this is going to be a pretty lively exchange.
COOPER: It will be a fascinating exchange. Alan Schroeder, appreciate you joining us. Thanks very much.
SCHROEDER: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Coming up next on 360, Cheney and Edwards, ready to go at it. We are less than two hours away from the debate.
Plus, we are taking the campaigns 360. They're answering your questions, unscripted, off the cuff. Terry McAuliffe, Ed Gillespie from the DNC and the RNC, and Ralph Nader's running mate as well, coming up. Cut out of the debate, he joins us live.
A lot ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And welcome back to this special edition of "360" in Cleveland Ohio, in anticipation of the debate about 90 minutes away now, Vice President Dick Cheney and his Democratic rival, his opposition, Senator John Edwards.
I'm joined here at the Cleveland Museum of Art by my colleague, Wolf Blitzer, and over at the debate bench itself by Judy Woodruff and Paula Zahn, all of whom will be covering the doings tonight.
A lot to talk about. Paula, what's coming up at 8:30? What are you going to be looking for, at 8 p.m.?
PAULA ZAHN, HOST, "PRIME TIME POLITICS": Well, we're going to be talking with one of the men who has been spending a lot of time with Vice President Cheney, getting him ready for tonight's debate.
I guess the one thing we all couldn't have anticipated is all this noise surrounding Iraq tonight and some comments the secretary of defense made yesterday, saying there was no hard evidence linking Saddam to 9/11 and al Qaeda.
And then Paul Bremer, of course, who was very involved in setting up the provisional government of Iraq, now coming out and saying there were not enough troops on the ground at the time of the turnover.
So that is a clear line of attack we expect to talk about and get some insights from the man who's been working with the vice president.
And then, obviously, we have all -- Judy and I have listened here for weeks and weeks on end to these campaign speeches. We know exactly where the vice president is going to try to make some mileage when it comes to what he will call John Edwards' inexperience.
So there's a lot to keep an eye on tonight, and one of the things Judy's going to come along with Joe Klein tonight from "TIME" magazine to talk about some of the do's and don'ts for both candidates to abide by.
COOPER: We'll be watching that at 8 p.m.
Judy, as you watch this debate tonight, what are you going to be looking for? What should viewers at home be looking for?
JUDY WOODRUFF, HOST, "INSIDE POLITICS": Well, No. 1, looking to see who's going to stay on the offensive, keeping the other guy on the defensive, but primary who is doing the most for the guy at the top of the ticket.
You know, so much is said about -- about Cheney and about Edwards and how they compare, but we all know that this is all about Kerry and Bush. That's how most people decide what they're going to do. There's some unfinished business left over from the first debate. I think John Edwards, for example, needs to clear up some of the inconsistencies that were still left hanging after the last debate.
And Dick Cheney probably needs to make some arguments, to complete some arguments that President Bush didn't quite finish last Thursday night, defending the war in Iraq.
So they both have their work cut out for them.
COOPER: And Wolf, what are you watching for?
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS": I'm going to be watching to see if John Edwards really tries to go for the -- on the attack, goes for the jugular against the vice president, whether he comes across as a collegial, kind of a nice guy, very positive, along the lines of what Joe Lieberman did four years ago, or whether he comes out swinging and comes out tough, which a lot of Democrats want him to do.
They want him to really go after Dick Cheney, but probably more than that, they want him to go after the president of the United States.
It sort of goes against John Edwards' nature to do that in this kind of a format, sitting around a table, one on one, "Meet the Press" or whatever. But if he does that, Democrats will be happy.
But he's got one problem, though. He's got to make sure he shows respect for the vice president of the United States. A lot of people will be angry if he doesn't.
COOPER: All right. Lots to watch for. Wolf Blitzer, thanks very much for that.
Well, as the vice president candidates meet tonight, expect the news of the day to -- to be front and center, and there has been a lot of news today on Iraq and on troop levels.
Ed Gillespie is chairman of the Republican National Committee. He joins us tonight. And Terry McAuliffe, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee. Both gentlemen are here.
Gentlemen, thanks very much for being with us.
Ed, let me start off by asking you a question. What -- I know it's a little hard with this crowd.
ED GILLESPIE, CHAIRMAN, RNC: I can't believe it.
COOPER: Ed, how likely is Dick Cheney to talk about these statements made by Ambassador Bremer about troop levels in Iraq, Ambassador Bremer coming out, surprising some people by saying there were not enough troops in Iraq on the ground when the looting started?
GILLESPIE: Anderson, I'm sure it will come up, and I'm sure the vice president will point out that the troop levels are set by the generals. The president has every time deferred to the generals to tell him what they need on the ground.
Ambassador Bremer says there are enough troops on the ground now. But looking back, back then he doesn't think there were enough troops. But that's not what the general's estimation was, and that was not their assessment. And that's who the president has said all along he was going to listen to.
COOPER: So far -- so far, though the White House hasn't come out and said whether or not Ambassador Bremer actually requested more troops back a year ago. News reports said that he had requested 50,000 more troops.
Do you know? Did he request them?
GILLESPIE: I don't know, Anderson. I know what they've said is that they listen to the generals to make the determination as to what the troop strength ought to be in Iraq, and that continues to be the president's approach today.
COOPER: Chairman McAuliffe, is Edwards going to hit this hard tonight?
TERRY MCAULIFFE, CHAIRMAN, DNC: Sure he's going to. You have Ambassador Bremer just come out and say that he continually warned the White House that we needed more troops over on the ground in Iraq.
This comes on top of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld saying there were no ties between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. And it comes on top of the secretary of state, Colin Powell, two weeks ago saying the deteriorating situation in Iraq, Senator McCain, and Senator Hagel.
We've got a mess on our hands in Iraq, and Dick Cheney was one of the architects of what we were doing in Iraq.
COOPER: Both candidates aren't allowed to ask direct questions to the other man. I suppose, though, if -- if Edwards was able to ask a question to Dick Cheney, he might ask him, does Dick Cheney still believe that there were links between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. Does he?
GILLESPIE: Well, there were links between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. That's not just Dick Cheney's estimation. That is the -- that is not just Dick Cheney's assessment, that is the assessment of the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, which on eight different occasions in their report on September 11 found connections between al Qaeda -- al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's regime.
COOPER: But Dick Cheney just yesterday said there was no intelligence on that, that he didn't see the linkage?
GILLESPIE: That's regarding September 11. No one has made the case that Saddam Hussein was involved in September 11. That's different from saying there were contacts in the relationship between Saddam Hussein's administration and al Qaeda. And in the Senate bipartisan intelligence committee report there are eight different examples of that cited.
COOPER: Terry, I see you smiling.
MCAULIFFE: Well, the bottom line is, listen, George Bush and Dick Cheney tried to convince America and the world that Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons, they could fire missiles with 45 minutes. They said they knew exactly where the weapons of mass destruction were.
At the end of the day, Anderson, none of it was true. George Bush and Dick Cheney rushed us to war with no plan what to do with our troops after major combat operations.
War over, we've got a mess on our hands in Iraq. We've got to change it. George Bush and Dick Cheney are like ostriches with their heads in the sand. We've got a problem. Let's fix it.
GILLESPIE: Anderson, the fact is Senator Kerry is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee and was one of the most forceful advocates of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein to our national security.
It's -- it's not a matter of having your head in a sand, it's a matter of having your finger in the wind. And that's what Senator Kerry continually has, wavering back and forth when it comes to the political dynamics.
COOPER: Terry, if Dick Cheney could ask a direct question of Senator Edwards, he might ask him, does Senator Edwards believe it was a mistake to overthrow Saddam Hussein? Does he?
MCAULIFFE: Well, clearly the way George Bush went about doing it, he does. There's no way the United States Senate has the same intelligence as the president of the United States.
I remind you that George Bush on August 6, in his presidential daily brief, was briefed that al Qaeda was to attack the United States of America. George Bush did not leave his month-long vacation. He didn't call the FAA. He didn't do anything. He should have done something.
COOPER: But did you say he thinks it was a mistake to overturn Saddam Hussein? Did you say he thinks it was a mistake to overthrow Saddam Hussein?
MCAULIFFE: The way in which George Bush went at it, of course he did.
Listen, Saddam Hussein, you know what? He was a 72-year-old dictator who had lost half his army. And many of the weapons that they were using in Iraq had been provided for by Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld before, and it was a mistake.
COOPER: And Ed, I want you to respond. Then we've got to go. GILLESPIE: The fact is, Terry knows full well that Senator Kerry and all of the members in the Senate had access to the National Intelligence Estimate. They themselves asked for it; it was made available to them. They came to the same conclusion.
There's a reason Senator Kerry voted for the war in Iraq. There's a reason he voted against it later on and declared himself an antiwar candidate and voted against the funding for the troops, because he did so under political pressure.
But the fact is he said -- he has said that knowing what he knows now, he still would have voted for the Iraq war resolution. He's since switched again. I can't tell where he is. But today he seems to be an anti-war candidate.
And I think that is -- I've got to say, Anderson, if I can make one more point, I think that this notion that we should have a global test before we are able to defend ourselves and our national security and allow France, Germany, Russia, to tell us whether or not we made a passing grade before we act in our security interest is a real problem that remains from that debate.
COOPER: Does John Kerry want a global test?
MCAULIFFE: I'll tell you where John Kerry is. He's on his way to become the next president of the United States.
COOPER: We're going to end it there. Terry McAuliffe, Ed Gillespie, thanks very much.
Coming up next on "360," an interview with one of the vice presidential candidates, Peter Camejo. He's Ralph Nader's running mate, and tells you why he thinks he should be included in the debate.
Also tonight, GRL the "360" way. We'll turn the questions over to the audience and let them ask the "CROSSFIRE" guys about the White House race.
First is the "360" challenge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): How many U.S. presidents were born in Ohio? One, three, seven or none?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Crashing the party. He's not allowed to debate, but Ralph Nader's running mate is joining us live. "360" next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COOPER (voice-over): How many presidents were born in Ohio? The answer is seven: Ulysses S. Grant, Rutherford B. Hayes, James A. Garfield, Benjamin Harrison, William McKinley, William H. Taft, and Warren G. Harding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, only two invitations were sent out for tonight's debate, of course: one for Dick Cheney and the other one for John Edwards. Noticeably absent from the guest list was that other vice presidential candidate, Peter Camejo.
As Ralph Nader's running mate, Camejo's hoping to win the White House for the Independent Party. He says it's those other two parties that are trying to keep his voice out of the picture. Peter Camejo joins me now.
Peter, thanks very much for being with us.
You and Nader are running basically one to two percent in most polls. Why should you be in these debates?
PETER CAMEJO (I), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, we represent the overwhelming majority of the opinion in the world. We're opposed to the U.S. occupation of Iraq. We think it was wrong to support Saddam Hussein for 20 years. We're against the Patriot Act.
COOPER: But you don't represent the overwhelming opinion of most Americans, given the -- by most polls. So why should you be allowed to debate?
CAMEJO: There's tens of millions of people in America that are opposed to this war and really would like to vote for Nader. But because we don't have runoffs, because we don't really have a free election in that sense, they're going to Kerry.
In fact, Kerry, the majority of Kerry's vote doesn't agree with what he's saying. Because Kerry's basically saying, "I can do Bush's policies better than Bush."
And so we're having a debate about who can do it better, not with the platform (ph). And we disagree with Bush's platform.
COOPER: You really don't think there's much of a difference between these two candidates?
CAMEJO: Well, I think there are -- I think there are some differences. I think the two parties are somewhat different. But on the major questions of the day: saving our environment, labor issues, Kyoto Protocol, world court, the war, the Patriot Act, they're in agreement.
Kerry gave George Bush 18 standing ovations in January. That's hard to do with somebody you don't like.
COOPER: Do you care -- You're not going to win. Do you care who does win?
CAMEJO: I care a lot about opening up the electoral system and democracy in America like the early abolitionists. They ran against the two parties saying they're wrong with what they're doing. That's what Nader is saying, and I suggest people go to VoteNader.org so that they can see what our positions are.
COOPER: And of course, to the argument which I'm sure you are asked a million times a day, that you're taking votes away from one candidate.
CAMEJO: Not at all. Not at all. If anybody is taking votes away, it's Kerry from Nader, because Nader is against the war, and so are tens of millions of people, disagree with this occupation.
The thing is if we had an open electoral system, if there was a runoff, so people wouldn't fear voting for a choice. We've closed the system down. We want to open it up. We want there to be more democracy in America, for people to be able to vote for what they're for.
COOPER: Isn't that more of a long-term goal, though?
CAMEJO: No, it's immediate. We need it now.
COOPER: In this election, isn't it really between Bush and Kerry?
CAMEJO: No.
COOPER: And isn't it hard to argue that you're not taking votes away from either one?
CAMEJO: No. No, because look, the corporations have taken over these two parties; money controls them. And Nader is saying this is wrong, and we have to start standing up against it. And we're calling for a vote.
I mean, look, Nader opposes the Taft-Hartley Law. So does the whole labor movement. Who else stands for this? Nobody in this campaign.
And on all of these major issues, you see a real deep difference. Our minimum wage is 30 percent lower today than it was in 1968.
COOPER: Who do you think is going to do better tonight?
CAMEJO: I think that -- that I will do the best if I could be in there. And of course, we're excluded even though we represent the majority point of view.
COOPER: All right. You didn't answer the question, but I'll let it go.
CAMEJO: OK.
COOPER: Peter Camejo, we appreciate you joining us.
CAMEJO: OK.
COOPER: Today's "Buzz" is this: "Should third party candidates be allowed in the debates?" What do you think? Log on to CNN.com/360. Cast your vote. We'll have results at the end of our program tonight.
And coming up on "360" next, those guys from the "CROSSFIRE," Tucker Carlson and Paul Begala, right here live to weigh in on what the candidates must do to score big tonight. And they're taking audience questions.
Also, I won't be the one answering all the questions, thankfully. We'll see what our audience comes up with. All that and more live from Cleveland. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We are just a little more than an hour until the vice presidential debate. And frankly after a jam-packed hour here, I'm getting a little tired of asking some questions, so it's time to see if this audience is up to the task.
Joining us now to answer the questions, CNN "CROSSFIRE" hosts Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
Gentlemen, thank you for subjecting yourself to the crowd.
All right. Our first question. What's your name and your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is James Roach (ph) and I'm from Midway, Kentucky. This question is for Paul.
John Edwards is known for his sunshine personality. Will he be able to show that side tonight, or will he be forced to match Cheney's critical approach?
PAULA BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": I hope he doesn't show too much sunshine. I want some fisticuffs. This is important. We've got 138,000 guys out in the desert with no exit strategy and a president who doesn't know what he's doing. I hope John Edwards -- you like that? Gets in there and fights about it. Absolutely.
COOPER: That's called playing to the crowd, Paul.
Tucker?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": I'd be pretty nervous if I were John Edwards. Cheney is good -- not a great speech giver, and he's good -- he's good at Q&A.
But Edwards has a lot more riding on this than Cheney does. I mean, it's over and out for Dick Cheney. Either, you know, Bush loses now or four years. That's when he retires. He doesn't need it. Edwards plans to be president or hopes to be. There's a lot riding on this for him. And I bet he's pretty tense.
COOPER: All right. Let's see, your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Judy Rosen (ph). I'm from University Heights.
My question is why is President Bush so unconcerned about having alienated the global community?
CARLSON: I guess the Democratic argument is that he's just plain evil so he doesn't care one way or another.
I don't think he is unconcerned. You know, look, everybody recognizes it's better to be loved than to be hated. But sort of the under girding theme of the Bush administration is the United States controls its national security, period, whether or not Belgium likes it.
And in fact, I think that's a pretty compelling argument. You don't want to alienate people on purpose, but sometimes you have to.
BEGALA: Well, no, actually America is stronger when we lead the world the way that John F. Kennedy did and Ronald Reagan did on the right. And John Kerry thinks that we ought to move together, and make -- he believes that America's prestige around the world is a force multiplier, and that we wouldn't have 90 percent of the casualties and 90 percent of the costs if we had some allies in this deal.
COOPER: All right. Let's get another question here. You have a question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Brandon Bradford from Detroit, representing K State (ph) basketball. Go Spartans.
BEGALA: There you go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is for Tucker. Why will America be a safer place if President Bush is reelected?
CARLSON: Well, I mean, the argument the Bush people make is that the president has a clear understanding that they're evil and we're not. He believes in the moral superiority of America. And the president is supposed to believe in the moral superiority of America.
And with John Kerry, it's not so clear that he believes that America -- truly -- no, not that John Kerry's not a patriot. Of course that's not the argument, but the argument is that John Kerry sees the world in a way that's so complex it's weak.
BEGALA: Look, no, I mean, even George W. Bush, with a Ph.D. in the obvious knows that we're good and the terrorists are evil. That's not the tricky part.
The tricky part is trying to get the rest of the world to help us out in this global war on terror, which somehow the president has alienated all of these allies. And for no other reason, we've got to get a president in there who will help us win the war on terror. That takes allies.
CARLSON: If I can just point out the obvious: no matter who is president, France and Germany are not sending troops to Iraq. Sorry. All right?
COOPER: Get another question in here. What's your question and your name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm Heidi Luddiwick (ph) from Kent State University, and my question is for the both of you.
Voter registration, especially for young voters, is up tremendously right now. How do you think it will affect the debate and the issues for young voters?
BEGALA: That's a great point. I hope that Gwen Ifill, who's the moderator tonight and a great, wonderful journalist, I hope she brings that up. Because you all have a lot more at stake in this election than old guys like me. OK?
I mean, my job is not going to get shipped over to China, maybe. I'm not going to get shipped out to Iraq, and I'm not going to have to pay off the national debt. You are.
And so you all ought to register and vote. At this point I don't even care which party, but you better get involved in this, because it's your rear end that's at stake, not mine.
COOPER: All right. Let me go to one more question. One more question. Your name and question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Shawn Dayton (ph) from Toledo, Ohio. Question for Paul. In this age of terrorism, can America really afford the risk of a vice president as inexperienced as John Edwards?
BEGALA: Great question. I think what Edwards -- what Edwards would say is, what have we gotten from Dick Cheney's experience. He said that we'd be greeted as liberators, and we weren't. He said there were weapons of mass destruction, and there wasn't. He said we didn't need 200,000 troops, and we did.
Cheney has been wrong about all the things he was supposed to be an expert on.
CARLSON: I think -- I think we're being unfair to John Edwards. This is a man who's chased a lot of ambulances. That's more dangerous than it looks. I think...
BEGALA: I'm serious.
COOPER: All right. We're got to leave it there.
BEGALA: I'm serious. COOPER: Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. "360" next, taking the No. 2 job, take that to "The Nth Degree."
Someone brought their dog in the crowd, which I just love.
Also, first today's "Buzz": "Should third party candidates be allowed to the debates?" Log on to CNN.com/360. Cast your vote now. Results when we come back.
There you go. There's the dog.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And now the "Buzz." Earlier we asked, "Should third party candidates be allowed in the debates?" More than 18,000 of you voted. Here's what you said: 62 percent said yes; 38 no.
Not a scientific poll, but it is the "Buzz." Thanks for voting.
Tonight, taking second prizes to the "Nth Degree," does the name -- there's a dog licking my ear. Does the name Daniel V. Tompkins ring a bell? No? What about George M. Dallas? William Wheeler? Levi P. Morton?
What if I told you that they were all very high-ranking public officials in these United States, almost as high ranking as you can possibly get?
Yes, they all served as vice president, as did George Clinton and William King and Garret A. Hobart.
Presidents can be forgotten as well, of course. You don't hear an awful lot these days about William Henry Harrison or Rutherford B. Hayes. But the forgotten chief executive is the exception, whereas the forgotten vice president is pretty much the rule.
Hannibal Hamlin, Schuyler Colfax, Henry Wilson. It's a peculiar place these figures occupy. They are in the history books and almanacs, indelible parts of an official record. Their names were literally chiseled in stone in more than a few places.
And yet, offer $20 to anyone who can name Grover Cleveland's vice president -- anybody? Didn't think so. The odds are pretty good you'd be walking around the with very same double sawbuck for months.
The answer, of course, well, by the way, is Thomas A. Hendricks of Ohio. I had to look that one up.
Which is where the latest contestants for that very important post hardly anyone remembers will be duking it out later tonight in just about an hour.
That's it for us. The debate is an hour away. Paula Zahn is standing by just across the street at the debate site to continue our coverage.
Paula, good evening.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
