Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Killen Jury Deadlocked; Search for Natalee Holloway
Aired June 20, 2005 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening, everyone. Breaking news out of Mississippi. The jury in the KKK trial tells the judge they're deadlocked. 360 starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): Searching for Natalee. Why is it taking so long? Tonight, the latest on the missing American teen and the fourth suspect in custody. Who is he and what role did he allegedly play in Natalee's last night?
The CIA's top spy says he has an excellent idea where Osama bin Laden is. But if that's true, why hasn't the U.S. grabbed him?
Hidden germs in your office. It's "Enough to Make You Sick". Your keyboard, your phone, even your desk are a breeding ground for bacteria. Tonight, why your office may be dirtier than a bathroom toilet, and what you can do to clean it up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.
COOPER: Good evening. We begin with breaking news out of Mississippi this hour, where a jury has deadlocked in the trial of a former Ku Klux Klan member, Edgar Ray Killen. He's accused of ordering and planning and organizing the 1964 murders of three civil rights workers. Now, just a short time ago, the jury deliberating the 41- year-old case told the judge they were deadlocked and they've only been deliberating for about an hour.
CNN's Ed Lavandera is live outside the courthouse in Philadelphia, Mississippi, with the latest. Ed, what's going on? They deliberate an hour and they say that's it?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, they've gone a little bit longer than that, about three hours this afternoon. The judge asked them, brought them into the courtroom and asked them where they stood and the forewoman told the judge that they were deadlocked at six, six not guilty, six guilty. The judge has sent them home for the evening and they will be brought back tomorrow to continue deliberations.
Anderson, it's been interesting throughout the course of this trial, there haven't been many people around here in Philadelphia showing up for the case. But it's a story that has long roots and they were lining up today to get a taste of what has been going on here for the last week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LAVANDERA (voice-over): It's a chapter of the civil rights struggle that remains incomplete and still haunts Philadelphia, Mississippi.
It was the 1964 Summer of Freedom. Idealistic young people from around the country had come to the South to register black voters. At the center of command among those Freedom Riders, as they were called, were three young men: two white, Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner, and one black, James Chaney.
It was June 21. The three men were heading down the Mississippi back roads to investigate a recently torched church. The FBI says after beating several church members, Ku Klux Klan members set fire to the church, leaving it a charred ruin.
But before they reached the church, the group was pulled off the road by local police. Arrested for speeding, they were tossed into the Neshoba County Jail. Prosecutors say while the three sat in jail, a gang of about 20 Klan members put a plan in motion to kill them. Accused of leading the effort, part-time Baptist preacher Edgar Ray Killen.
Some hours later, the three young civil rights workers were released from jail and drove away in their station wagon. Right behind them were two carloads of Klan members.
After a long chase, the mob forced them off the road. Taken from the cars, the three were killed, shot dead at close range: Schwerner, then Goodman, then Chaney. A bulldozer was brought in to bury them. The bodies disappeared.
The state of Mississippi never charged any of the culprits with murder. There was no federal murder charge then, so instead, the men were brought up on civil rights violations with only seven serving minimal prison sentences.
The man considered to be one of the key instigators, Edgar Ray Killen, walked free, an 11-1 hung jury verdict. Although the jury was all white, there was only one holdout who said at the time she could never convict a preacher.
Killen left the courtroom that day a free man, but for more than 30 years groups of civil rights activists, politicians and journalists refused to accept that ruling as the last word. Killen's murder case is the latest in a series of civil rights cases that have been rekindled, looking to right the wrongs of the past.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAVANDERA: Now, defense attorneys for Edgar Ray Killen left the courthouse just a little while ago. They seemed rather upbeat about the 6-6 deadlock at this point and are looking forward to, as all sides are, the jury returning back here to the courthouse tomorrow morning to continue their deliberations. Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Deliberations continue tomorrow. Thanks very much, Ed.
We want to talk to Jeffrey Toobin in just a moment, but I wanted to put up a picture of these three young men who were brutally murdered. Forty years ago to the day, tomorrow, is when they were killed, and I don't know if you were listening to Ed Lavandera's piece -- I hope you were -- they were pushed off the side of the road by two cars filled with KKK members. They were shot at close range, and they were dumped in a pit that had already been dug and a bulldozer was brought in, in the dead of night. And these guys were just buried.
The people who did this wanted these three young men to be forgotten. They wanted what their movement stood for to be forgotten. It hasn't been. This case has been something that people down in that area have never forgotten, nor people around the world. No one has ever been held accountable for murder for these three young men. That is the case that is being discussed right now.
On the phone, Jeffrey Toobin. Jeffrey, does it surprise you that, after some three hours of deliberations, they are already saying they are deadlocked?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: It sure does, Anderson. This is a very short time to declare a deadlock, and the judge clearly did the right thing in saying, you have a lot more work to do. Get back to work and try and reach some sort of verdict.
COOPER: How can it be that 40 years later, no one has ever been held accountable for these murders? I mean, the guys who actually did it were brought up on civil rights charges and served minimal time.
TOOBIN: Well, this is really a story of Mississippi in the '60s. In the '60s, the legal structure of Mississippi was on the side, frankly, of the killers, not on the side of the victims. It was impossible for any district attorney or attorney general in Mississippi to -- it was politically impossible, and they were simply unwilling to prosecute them for this crime. So, the federal government stepped in, but the federal government didn't have the jurisdiction to prosecute for murder. All they could do was conspiracy. Murder is a state crime, not a federal crime, so the federal government did what it could, and it's only now, decades later, that the state of Mississippi, a profoundly changed place, has decided that it's time to bring a murder case.
COOPER: And we should point out, Mississippi is a profoundly changed place. I want to show a picture of this man, Killen. The federal court, which you talked about, which -- where he was put on trial, 11-1 they were voting to convict him. One holdout, a woman who said she couldn't convict someone who had been a preacher. TOOBIN: You know, it was a different time, Anderson. This was, you know -- it's inconceivable to consider it now, but public opinion was not on Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney's side in Mississippi in those days. Public opinion was very much against them and the jury pool is the, you know, legal manifestation of public opinion and 11-1, frankly, was a surprise to some people, for conviction. It was a very different time.
COOPER: Very different, indeed. Again, the jury gets back tomorrow. The judge sent them back to continue deliberations. We'll continue to follow the story. Jeffrey Toobin, thanks very much.
On the island of Aruba, there are four suspects in custody, still no sign of Natalee Holloway. We're going to talk to her mom in a moment, but CNN's Karl Penhaul has been tracking the investigation all weekend. There've been a lot of developments as the father of one suspect has repeatedly been called in for questioning. Let's get the latest from Karl in Aruba.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Suspect Steve Croes covers his face with cuffed hands as police bring him to court. On a judge's orders, he'll be kept in jail for the time being while prosecutors investigate his links, if any, with Natalee Holloway's disappearance.
His ex-wife Janet Croes waits with their 3-year-old son, little Steve. She's anxious but convinced he's innocent.
JANET CROES, WIFE OF SUSPECT (through translator): He's a charming person, a very good father and very hard working. I'm 100 percent sure he's not involved in this case.
PENHAUL: Croes was arrested Friday. He's the DJ on this party boat. His boss says he's an able seaman, too, but declined to tell CNN whether the vessel was at sea the night Natalee vanished.
Investigators will not detail how they think Croes may be tied to three other suspects in this case. The chief prosecutor, Caren Janssen, was keeping mum as she left the court.
CAREN JANSSEN, CHIEF PROSECUTOR: I'm sorry. I can't tell you.
PENHAUL: Seventeen-year-old Joran Van Der Sloot, Satish Kalpoe, 18, and his brother Deepak, 21, have not been charge with anything, but under Dutch law, the prosecutor has accused them of murder one, murder two and kidnapping leading to death, to hold them in jail. They were the last people known to have seen Natalee. There's still no conclusive evidence whether Natalee is alive or dead.
Over the weekend, police questioned Paul Van Der Sloot, a judge and father of the suspect Joran Van Der Sloot. Police say they regard him as a possible witness, not a suspect. As he left the police station in downtown Oranjestad, Judge Van Der Sloot was in no mood to talk publicly about what he knows. But Natalee's stepfather, George Twitty, is demanding answers.
GEORGE TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S FATHER: I've met him. I met him the night I got here. I got here, you know, 12 hours after it happened, and the guy's -- he's sickening to me. He's a chicken. You can tell. Why's he running this morning on TV? If he has nothing to hide, why's he running to his car? He's -- he makes my stomach turn.
PENHAUL: It's three weeks since Natalee disappeared, and her parents say they will not leave Aruba until they find out what happened to their daughter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PENHAUL: The question many people are asking is why, on an island just 19 miles long and six miles wide, is it taking so long to hunt down clues of Natalee, and why is it taking police so long to check out the stories of these three young men. Anderson.
COOPER: And Karl, I know a little bit later on in the program, you are actually going to sort of take us through a little bit of the search, kind of show -- try to answer some of those questions about why it is so hard to search on this island. We'll look forward to that report, Karl, a little bit later on 360.
Also coming up, I'm going to talk with Natalee Holloway's mother -- she's in Aruba -- hear what she thinks of the investigation and how she's dealing with all of this. Can hardly even imagine how she's doing that.
Also ahead tonight, did you hear that the director of the CIA said he has an excellent idea of where Osama bin Laden is? The question is, how come we haven't gotten him yet if they know where he is? We'll investigate ahead.
Also, office germs. Ever wonder just what's lurking on your computer keyboard, or your telephone, maybe in the break room? Well, it is "Enough to Make You Sick". Our special series, you won't believe how many germs are in your office.
All that ahead. But first, your picks, the most popular stories on CNN.com right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: It was there weeks ago today Natalee Holloway was supposed to fly home. Her bags were packed, her passport was waiting, but when they went to the airport, Natalee was not there.
Joining us live from Palm Beach is a woman to whom all our hearts go out, Natalee Holloway's mother, Beth Holloway Twitty. Beth, thanks very much for being with us. Thanks for sparing us some of your time. I can only imagine how it's been for you. How are you doing? How is the rest of your family doing?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE'S MOTHER: It's -- sometimes it's extremely difficult. And then, you know, at other times we're able to stay focused and driven and get some answers. So -- but as you know and everyone who is experiencing it, it is frustrating and it's very difficult. COOPER: Yeah, and it's got to come in waves. A fourth person is in custody, this guy Steve Croes. Do you believe that police are at this point any closer to finding your daughter?
B. TWITTY: Well, I'm not sure how much information Steve Croes has, and I'll be anxious to find out once that is disclosed. But I do feel that, you know, they are making progress in it, and, you know, just one step closer. Still frustrated, because I don't have answers, but I do feel we are slowly getting one step closer.
COOPER: How much are they in communication with you, the authorities down there? I mean, because publicly they are not saying anything, and I can understand why that may be. But to you privately, I mean, do you feel like you are having good communication?
B. TWITTY: I do now, yes. I do at this point.
COOPER: Police have questioned the father of one of the suspects, this guy, Judge Paul Van Der Sloot, twice over the weekend. Your husband, Natalee's stepdad, said that Van Der Sloot is acting like he could be hiding something. How do you think he might be connected in all of this?
B. TWITTY: I think he could be very, very instrumental in helping us find the answers to what happened to Natalee, and I think it is a good idea that he has been questioned.
COOPER: Do you think he learned something directly from his son? Or do you think he overheard something?
B. TWITTY: You know, just from Jug and I, just our intuition, and when we arrived on the island and his attitude, I mean, we felt from the very beginning, as early as May 31, between the hours of 1:00 and 3:00 a.m., that he could very well be instrumental and have some information.
COOPER: So you met with him pretty soon after you got on the island?
B. TWITTY: Yes, Jug did.
COOPER: Jug did. And what was -- I mean, what was his -- what about the way he was acting, what about what he was saying that raised suspicions?
B. TWITTY: Well, I really -- I really can't disclose that, since most of my information was, you know, obtained -- most of it was secondhand. I did have one brief encounter with him that I would not like to comment on, but, you know, it just raised a huge, huge suspicion in Jug and I, at the moment -- from the time we met him.
COOPER: Is -- I understand there is a group of volunteers from Texas, that's coming down to search for Natalee. I mean, what is your sense -- how many people are on the police force down there in Aruba? Do they need more help? I mean, do you need people coming down there?
B. TWITTY: You know, I'm not going to comment on whether we need more help, but we have certainly not turned any down. We have been so graciously accepting anyone's help, so--
COOPER: And where -- I mean, is there an area right now that you are most interested in looking at? Or is there one piece of information or one person you most want to hear from? Or, you know, where you are kind of focusing your energies on?
B. TWITTY: I mean, not particularly. We feel like we've exhausted a lot of areas just through family searches and just through the searches by the authorities. So, you know, we really don't have any areas right now to concentrate on, no. We need some answers from those individuals that they have in custody.
COOPER: Let's hope that happens soon. Beth Holloway Twitty, again, our hearts go out to you, and we think of you always. Thanks for being with us.
B. TWITTY: Thank you so much for having me.
COOPER: All right, you take care now.
Erica Hill from HEADLINE NEWS following a couple of other stories for us tonight. Erica, good evening.
ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hey, Anderson. Good to see you.
In the mountains east of Salt Lake City, Utah, the search continues for a missing Boy Scout. Eleven-year-old Brennan Hawkins was last seen on Friday. He was camping with fellow Scouts. About 400 people helped today in the search, that's down from about 3,000 on Sunday.
Searchers are hopeful Brennan will be found alive. They say he may be using his basic survival skills. And another plus here -- overnight temperatures have not been as cold as they sometimes can be in June.
On Capitol Hill, Senate Democrats have blocked a second attempt to vote on the nomination of John Bolton to be U.N. ambassador. Republicans came up six votes short. It's a setback for President Bush, who could ask for another vote, or use a seldom-used power, installing Bolton without Senate approval during the July 4th holiday recess.
On now to Cairo, Egypt, where U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice calls on Egyptians to lead and define a democratic future in the Middle East. Ms. Rice also called on the government of Syria to -- quote -- "join the progress."
In Pine Bluff, Arkansas -- talk about a wild wake-up call. Check this out. It's a car that actually plowed through a home, landed on top of a bed where a man was sleeping. Amazingly, he actually survived. He's in fair condition at the hospital. He says he was saved by his mattress. It rolled him up like a burrito. Anderson.
I mean, can you imagine the wake-up?
COOPER: Wow. I don't quite -- I don't understand how the mattress rolled like a burrito, but --
HILL: I don't understand how he survived it, but makes for a good story.
COOPER: Well, I know and he's going to have a, you know -- he can make a deal with that mattress company.
HILL: Or Taco Bell.
COOPER: Either one -- there you go. You're thinking, Erica Hill.
All right, thanks. We'll see you again in about 30 minutes.
For all you 360 viewers, you'll like this. You can see more amazing video by logging on to CNN.com, clicking on the video link and with this new feature you can watch video as many times as you want, whenever you want. And the best part, I'm told, is it's free.
It's on CNN.com.
Coming up on 360, did you know Saddam Hussein likes Raisin Bran but hates Froot Loops? And wait until you hear his dating advice. Two soldiers who guarded Saddam are talking about a side of the dictator we have never seen before.
Also ahead tonight, you won't believe how many germs are at your workplace. We're talking about on your phone, on your table. We'll tell you how to beat them as part of our special series.
And a little later, more on the search for Natalee Holloway. We'll take you deep inside with search teams in Aruba.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back.
Seems to us you really need to see the mind-boggling statement made by the newly-installed director of Central Intelligence Agency. In a "Time" magazine interview published just today, Porter Goss was asked about Osama bin Laden's whereabouts, and he said this, "I have an excellent idea of where he is." Mr. Goss further said, "When you go to the very difficult question of dealing with sanctuaries in sovereign states, you're dealing with a problem of our sense of international obligation, fair play."
So, is Porter Goss saying what he seems to be saying: That we know where the mass murderer is, but that we feel compunctions about going to get him? We asked CNN's national security correspondent David Ensor to investigate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Administration officials were quick to say that the CIA director's information about bin Laden's whereabouts is not specific enough to take immediate action.
SCOT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think what the director was referring to was that he has an excellent idea of what area he may be in. If we knew exactly where Osama bin Laden was, we would go get him and I can assure you of that.
ENSOR: Bin Laden, U.S. officials say, is probably hiding in Pakistan's northwest territories or Waziristan, along the Afghan/Pakistani border. It is rugged terrain, hundreds of square miles, mostly mountainous with hundreds of caves and hideouts.
Bin Laden could be in either country, but U.S. forces in Afghanistan make it dangerous on that side of the border in view of the outgoing U.S. ambassador in Kabul.
ZALMAY KHALILZAD, US AMBASSADOR TO AFGHANISTAN: I do not believe that Osama is in Afghanistan.
ENSOR: Khalilzad said bin Laden will be caught sooner or later.
KHALILZAD: Of course, not an easy job to find one person -- maybe with some helping him -- a small group of people in a vast region.
ENSOR: Pakistan won't let U.S. military units operate on their own, and the area is not under full Pakistani government control. CIA Director Goss referred in the "Time" magazine interview to that problem when he spoke of - quote -- "the very difficult question of dealing with sanctuaries in sovereign states."
Pakistani military units have been up in some border villages in recent months -- for the first time in decades, U.S. officials say -- putting new pressure on the al Qaeda fugitive leader.
JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It's likely that he's having more trouble communicating. It's likely that he's having to move. It's likely that he's having to go underground. And when those sorts of things happen, people on the run are somewhat more vulnerable.
ENSOR (on camera): So far, however, there is no precise information about bin Laden's whereabouts. As one U.S. official put it - quote -- "If it were: Oh, he's in the third hut on the left, then that hut wouldn't be there anymore. It would just be smoke." But said the official, "That's not how it is at all."
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COOPER (voice-over): Searching for Natalee. Why is it taking so long? Tonight, the latest on the missing American teen and the fourth suspect in custody. Who is he and what role did he allegedly play in Natalee's last night?
Hidden germs in your office. It's "Enough to Make You Sick". Your keyboard, your phone, even your desk are a breeding ground for bacteria. Tonight, why your office may be dirtier than a bathroom toilet and what you can do to clean it up. 360 continues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, we have all experienced it at our workplaces. A co- worker starts sneezing and sniveling and it's not long before everybody gets the bug. Something is going around, you tell each other.
Well, nobody is surprised that germs exist at the office, but you may be shocked by just how many there are. Would you believe a public toilet seat is cleaner than most cubicles? On top of that, it really doesn't take much to fix the problem, but few of us do.
All this week we're exposing the filth around us in a special series called, "Enough to Make You Sick."
CNN's Heidi Collins takes a close look tonight at office germs.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sushi, sandwiches and salads all sharing space with computers, phones and files.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It saves time, eating at your desk. There's really no time to eat out.
COLLINS: Add to that shared workspaces and sick colleagues, and you have a veritable petri dish of illness-causing organisms.
DR. CHARLES GERBA, MICROBIOLOGIST: People don't realize that office space is their personal space. They really don't -- most people don't clean their desk until they start sticking to it.
COLLINS: And Professor Charles Gerba should know. To many, he is Dr. Germ. Gerba has been tracking disease-causing bacteria in the office as part of several studies sponsored by Clorox. What he found is, even though we nearly live at the office, we definitely don't clean it like we should.
GERBA: An area we call a high-touch zone.
COLLINS: He and his team collected more than 7,000 samples from workplaces across the country. He found, on the average workspace, 21,000 bacteria per square inch, and before you touch that elevator button, might want to put on a glove. He found 3,500 bacteria per square inch. That may not mean much to you, but compare it with the average workplace toilet, just 49 bacteria per square inch.
That means your workspace may have a whopping 400 times more bacteria than your office toilet. To make things worse, on many of the surfaces he tested, he found para-influenza, and that will just plain make you sick.
DR. ROSLYN STONE, COO, WELLNESS, INC.: People don't wash their hands and they've brought their germs from outside into work. They come to work often sick, and our hands transmit those germs to our desks, to the break room, to the sponge, you know, to the refrigerator handle.
COLLINS: Roslyn Stone is the COO of Wellness, Incorporated, and is the chairman of the CDC's Workplace Flu-Prevention Team. She says people who come to work sick have become a pricey problem for employers.
According to the "Harvard Business Review", companies lose $150 billion a year in lost productivity and higher health care expenses.
STONE: These germs stay alive for 72 hours, which is longer than we thought, you know, three full days. But what we find is when you use a disinfectant, it does keep that surface relatively germ-free for 24 hours. So you need to do it every day.
COLLINS: But are we doing it every day, especially since most of us hardly have enough time to eat a proper lunch, much less clean up? Here at CNN, we do have disinfecting wipes like these, but this is a busy 24-hour news operation. So, we began to wonder. What might be lurking on our desks, phones, and conference tables? And is anyone cleaning them? So we brought in the germinator himself.
Armed with a cooler full of swabs and a germ meter, Professor Gerba arrived at our offices ready to put us to the test.
Do you think this is going to be a particularly germy workplace, or does it look relatively clean to you?
GERBA: Well, some of the germiest workplaces are actually news media offices.
COLLINS: Already, things weren't looking good. With his germ meter at the ready, Dr. Germ wanted to see exactly what we gamble with every day.
GERBA: It's reading the energy molecules of bacteria. It's going to give me a relative idea how many bacteria are on it and usually, if it's really bad, it's going to beep here and it's going to say fail.
COLLINS: Then the beeping begins.
GERBA: That's not a good sign.
COLLINS: He tested the phones, the workstations, the mouse, and that conference table where we hold our meetings every morning.
GERBA: Yes, it looks like -- right here, this looks bad. Oh, 5.5.
COLLINS: 5.5!
GERBA: That's a record. That's the record. That means there's about -- more than 50 million bacteria.
COLLINS: Fifty million bacteria?
GERBA: Wow.
COLLINS: The break room was so bad he sent the samples off to the lab where they came back at astronomical levels. The lab technician stopped counting when the number hit 100,000 bacteria per square inch on the break room sponge. Remember, the average workplace toilet is only 49 bacteria per square inch.
Just when we didn't think it could get any worse, we found Richard's desk. When Gerba checked his germ meter, it came back...
GERBA: 4.3.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 4.3?
GERBA: That's off the charts.
COLLINS: That's the highest we've had, isn't it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow. That's embarrassing.
COLLINS: Gerba went on to test Richard's keyboard and found it, too, was high.
GERBA: 3.5.
COLLINS: When Dr. Germ is amazed, this is not good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not good.
COLLINS: After all that, we weren't sure we could take any more, but there was one place we hadn't tested and we just had to know about, anchorman and colleague Anderson Cooper. Conveniently enough, the day we were testing, he was away.
This is Anderson's office. What we found was horrifying.
That's heinous.
GERBA: This guy needs to wash his hands once in a while.
Well, I certainly wouldn't use this desk. I'd leave this guy alone.
COLLINS: We just couldn't resist telling Anderson our results when he came back into the office. You failed miserably. COOPER: So, 2.5 is passing.
COLLINS: Yes.
COOPER: I got a 3.7.
COLLINS: Yes.
COOPER: Wow.
COLLINS: That fails miserably. The next one is your keyboard here, OK? You got a 4.1. And I can tell you that four, the number four, equals about 10,000 bacteria per square inch.
COOPER: Wow. And again, it's 2.5 to pass?
COLLINS: 2.5 to pass.
COOPER: Wow, so my keyboard is...
COLLINS: I would not -- I would not even touch it again. And then your phone is dismal, OK, 4.6, which, once we hit the number five...
COOPER: It doesn't look that bad.
COLLINS: I mean, you are talking about 1 million bacteria per square inch.
COOPER: It smells a little...
COLLINS: Did you put your nose on it?
COOPER: Yeah.
COLLINS: I wouldn't do that either.
Even Professor Gerba was disgusted.
GERBA: Well, this is pushing a two or three in terms of the germiest places I've ever seen. We haven't found one pass in the whole office area we tested all day, which is really unusual.
COLLINS: So, what should you do? Gerba says you should wash your hands frequently for at least 60 seconds. You say you don't have time? Then Gerba says pick up a hand sanitizer and wash your hands with that and wipe down your desk with disinfectant every day.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: I think I'm in so much trouble. But, anyway, we have all heard of absenteeism, but when it comes to germs in the workplace, there's a common phenomenon known as presenteeism, sick workers come into work even though they feel lousy. In fact, because of presenteeism, there was an outbreak at a hotel in Las Vegas where 1,200 guests and employees contracted the Norwalk virus. The state health department believes the reason it spread so badly is because people kept coming to work.
Now, back to your office, Anderson.
COOPER: Do you want to have some water? Would you like to share from my cup?
COLLINS: No, thank you. No -- thank you. I just wanted to present you with this gift basket of cleaning products. Here is also a sponge for the breakroom. You know that was really bad. Here's something for your...
COOPER: This is good. Little spray thing for glass.
COLLINS: Little spray thing. This is for your keyboard, which -- by the way, I used to go in your office and -- when I fill in for you. Yes, I'm not doing that anymore.
COOPER: So, is that realistic? They say you should wash your hands for 60 seconds? Does anyone do that?
COLLINS: Yes. Well, you've heard the whole happy birthday thing. Sing happy birthday twice and it really is...
COOPER: Wait, what?
COLLINS: If you sing happy birthday twice, that's about 60 seconds, depending upon how fast you sing, of course.
COOPER: Really?
COLLINS: Yes.
COOPER: I never knew that. So, you're supposed to sing happy birthday while you wash your hands -- twice.
COLLINS: You could, or maybe another song that lasts 60 seconds.
COOPER: And every day you're supposed to use sanitizer?
COLLINS: Yes, yes.
COOPER: Wow.
COLLINS: When you leave in the morning, come back the next day.
COOPER: I figured it was like a once-a-year thing. I can't get this to work.
COLLINS: Yes, clearly you thought it was once a year.
COOPER: All right, Heidi Collins, thanks very much. Tomorrow, we're going to look at ice and all the gross stuff in ice.
COLLINS: Not a pretty sight.
COOPER: Yes, didn't know that. Oy, all right. Coming up next on 360, Saddam Hussein, unscripted. What he likes to eat for breakfast? Raisin Bran. And his cellblock advice on finding the right woman. Yes, it's a side of him you haven't seen before.
Also tonight, a courthouse shooting. A man dressed in camouflage shot dead in Seattle. We'll give you details.
And, searching for Natalee Holloway -- why is it taking so long to find her? Why is it so hard? We go along with one search party looking for Natalee.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, as each day passes, the search for Natalee Holloway grows more desperate in Aruba and more frantic. And while volunteers fan out hoping for the best, there are search crews whose job, sadly, requires them to prepare for the worst. CNN's Karl Penhaul traveled along on their grim mission.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PENHAUL (voice-over): Aruba is just a speck, 19 miles long, six miles wide, and 20 miles from Venezuela.
But once you get airborne, you see the scale of the task facing search teams -- the high-rise hotel district where Natalee stayed; along the coast to the lighthouse; the possible route Natalee took with three young men now being held in connection with her disappearance; beyond that, miles of soft sand dunes.
RUBEN CROES, SEARCH AND RESCUE TEAM MEMBER: It's not the first time that they have found bodies in the dunes here. But it has to do with people getting lost.
PENHAUL (on camera): When was the last time they found bodies in the dunes?
CROES: I think they found some guy about five years ago.
PENHAUL: And how long did it actually take to find the body?
CROES: I think it was -- he was missing for probably another five years before that.
PENHAUL (voice-over): Teams have hunted here for signs of Natalee, but the wind and sand quickly obscure traces of anything that may be buried. Beyond that, the sea stretches to the horizon. It's 690 miles due west to Panama. Any object that drifts off Aruba's west coast will eventually end up in Panama.
We head out on the search and rescue boat to Manchebo Point, notorious because this is where two powerful ocean currents collide.
EFRAIN BOEKHUODT, SEARCH AND RESCUE TEAM COORDINATOR: Once you reach a certain point, you get yourself in the current, and here is where most of the problems happen, and once you're in the current, you'll drift about two miles an hour on a slow day.
PENHAUL: Any closer to shore, he says, and the surf could drag an object back to the beach. But here, with more than a mile and a half off Aruba's west coast, the water is more than 60 feet deep.
We're going to test those currents.
(on camera): Three, two, one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. We have a man overboard.
PENHAUL (voice-over): Here, you can feel a menacing undertow and the strong swell.
Boekhuodt tells me if they leave me in the water long enough, I'll drift northwest a few miles, then due west out into open ocean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
PENHAUL: But he says it would not be easy to sail a boat out this far at night to dump something.
BOEKHUODT: If you put a foot in the water at night, you're on the radar.
PENHAUL: Back in the air, Aruba's north coast looks much more rugged. But the tides are predictable.
CROES: Everything you throw here in the water on the north shore will always get back to the north shore. Will always get back to land.
PENHAUL (on camera): Where would you hide an object? Would you dump it into sea, or would you hide it on land?
CROES: I would hide it on land.
PENHAUL (voice-over): Unlike in the sand dunes, Croes says it would take several hours to dig a hole in the hard earth down there, amid the rocks and cacti. You can, though, just make out the entrances to a handful of old gold mine shafts, abandoned more than 100 years ago and now partly flooded with sea water.
(on camera): What kind of equipment would you need to get down into those? Would you need ropes? CROES: Ropes, and somebody who has -- would dare to go in there.
PENHAUL (voice-over): It's been three weeks to the day since Natalee vanished, and never finding out what happened to her is a possibility few dare to mention.
Karl Penhaul, CNN, Aruba.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: It's so frustrating for the family, to hear this day in and day out. The criminal investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway is stepping up. Four men are now in custody, accused of murder and kidnapping there, though no one has been officially charged. They have just been accused. It's a very different system down there. In a short time, we'll have an interview with the attorney for the family of Natalee Holloway's parents.
Erica Hill from HEADLINE NEWS joins us with some of the other stories we're covering, about a quarter until the hour. Hey, Erica.
HILL: Hey, Anderson. Some tense moments today inside a Seattle courthouse. Police shot to death a man who was allegedly making threats and carrying what appeared to be a hand grenade. Authorities surrounded the building. A bomb squad was called in. Police say upon investigation, they found the grenade was not active, and the man's backpack did not contain explosives.
In New York City, the founder of Adelphia has been sentenced to 15 years in prison. Former CEO John Rigas, who's now 80 and in poor health, and his son, former financial chief Timothy Rigas, were convicted in July on fraud and conspiracy charges in connection with the cable company's collapse. Timothy Rigas was sentenced to 20 years in prison.
In Beirut, Lebanon, opposition leader Saad Hariri has won the country's parliamentary elections, bringing to an end Syria's long domination of Lebanon. Hariri got into the race after his father Rafik was assassinated in February. That killing sparked massive protests against Syrian influence in Lebanon.
And holy hot wheels. Check this out. Ferraris at the Vatican, of course. More than a dozen red and yellow Ferraris -- there is a white one there, too -- driven by members of the Easy Rider Association revved into St. Peter's Square for a blessing by Pope Benedict XVI. And, Anderson, they did get what they wanted. The pope did actually mention the group in his remarks.
I'm guessing it might have been a first.
COOPER: Yeah. That's interesting.
HILL: Yes. By the way, your office is disgusting.
COOPER: Oh, what, like -- I'm sure your office is pretty (INAUDIBLE) too.
HILL: I'm sure my desk is disgusting. I don't even use my office, but where I sit in the newsroom, I share the space with like three other people. So I'm sure it's gross. And right after that, as we all watched your show, one of our writers passed around -- Tyson (ph) passed around wipes for us, so we could all clean up.
COOPER: Yeah. Every day, you are supposed to do it. Erica Hill, thanks very much. See you again in about 30 minutes. For all you 360 viewers, you can see more of the pope blessing Ferraris or anything else from your own computer. Log on to CNN.com, click the video link. It's a new feature. You can watch this and other great video as many times as you want, whenever you want, and you can't beat the price -- it's free.
Coming up next on 360, breakfast with Saddam Hussein. Two Americans who guarded him talk about the dictator's life behind bars. He likes Raisin Bran.
And tomorrow, our series, "Enough to Make You Sick," continues with dirty ice. Before you cool off with a cold drink, make sure the ice in the cup is safe. You won't believe what we found in some of this ice.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We've just gotten the results of a startling new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll that shows a big erosion of support among Americans for the war in Iraq. Of the 1,006 adults who were interviewed by phone between this past Thursday and Sunday, nearly six in 10 said they opposed the war. Only 39 percent are in favor of it. That's the highest disapproval rating for the war since it began.
Now, the man who was at the center of the war, Saddam Hussein, of course remains in custody, being guarded by American troops. And two of them, young National Guard troops are now talking about what Saddam's life in prison is like. And frankly, they've seen a side of Saddam we've never heard of before.
CNN's Adaora Udoji reports "The World in 360."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You'd never guess Saddam Hussein, the poster child for brutally violent dictators, has a soft spot for American junk food.
SEAN O'SHEA, FORMER HUSSEIN GUARD: So, we gave him the Cheetos and he really liked them. He would always ask for them. Then, we ran out of Cheetos, so we got him Doritos, and that was just it. Doritos were his favorite.
UDOJI: That's not all 20-year-old Specialist Shawn O'Shea and 22- year-old Corporal Jonathan Reese learned, guarding Hussein after his capture in Iraq. The fallen leader hates Froot Loops cereal, preferring Raisin Bran Crunch, instead. Saddam also has a fondness for tattoos.
JONATHAN REESE, FORMER HUSSEIN GUARD: He actually has two of them, I do believe. One is on his forearm right here. And it's actually -- it just looks just like a stick figure and he said it was from a Gazelle. I think that's what he said. It was a gazelle; what he got when he was a young boy.
UDOJI: Guarding the notorious leader was O'Shea and Reese's first big assignment in the National Guard. Coming straight from small-town Pennsylvania. However unlikely, over the course of 298 days, they got to know Saddam well.
UDOJI (on camera): I mean, did he treat you like sons?
O'SHEA: He actually referred to us as his sons. Actually, he invited us back once the war is over, like. He said he's going to be president again.
UDOJI: What did he tell you about women?
O'SHEA: He said, "Well, you have to find a woman." He goes, "Not too smart, not too dumb," and he goes, "In the middle. One that can cook and can clean."
UDOJI (voice-over): That's advice from an accused mass murder. They say he spent his time writing poetry, tending to his flowers and smoking cigars. What's more, the man with a preference for perfectly tailored suits and uniforms was reduced to washing his own clothes by hand.
UDOJI: He was very obsessed with cleanliness?
O'SHEA: We'd give him breakfast and you know, he'd get his plastic fork and spoon, wipe it down and he'd wipe -- he had a little table. He'd wipe that down -- everything -- his hands, wash them before and after he ate.
UDOJI: Everything they learned was a secret. They couldn't tell their friends or family until they came home. A job of a lifetime; an intimate experience with a man the U.S. launched a war against, a man they will never see the same way again.
Adaora Udoji, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: He doesn't like Froot Loops? How can you not like -- who doesn't like Froot Loops?
Anyway, there's more 360 after the break.
Plus tomorrow, a lot more on the germs that hide in our offices and in food and in ice. Yes, even in ice.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, we return to our top story this evening. The criminal investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway is stepping up. Four men are now in custody, accused of murder and kidnapping although not one of them has been charged.
Joining us now from Palm Beach, Aruba, is the lawyer for the Holloways, Vinda DeSousa. Vinda, thanks very much for being with us. There is a lot of belief here in the United States that this investigation is going very slowly. And frankly, there are a lot of doubts about the competence of Aruban authorities. Why did it take police more than two weeks to search the home of this young Dutchman and his vehicle?
VINDA DESOUSA, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, that is a question that I can't answer. It's part of their investigation. I'm not privy to that information.
COOPER: But is that a question you have asked them? You're the attorney for Natalee Holloway's family. Is that something you've been asked? I mean, are you concerned about the pace of the investigation?
DESOUSA: Obviously, the family is concerned about the pace of the investigation. And we have a good line of communication with the prosecution and the authorities, and we are being kept up to date. And we know that they are doing all they can in order to solve this as soon as possible.
COOPER: Well, I mean, every time we speak with a government official about the pace of the investigation, they claim they don't speak for the police. They say there's a separation here in Aruba between the government and the police. Why are...
DESOUSA: That's correct.
COOPER: ... aren't the police speaking? Why isn't there a spokesman for the police at least just kind of telling, you know, the world, which is following this story, what is going on?
DESOUSA: Well, you see, the first and primary concern of the investigation here, the authorities investigating this possible crime, is not to jeopardize the investigation. It's the way that investigation is conducted under ours as well as the Dutch law.
COOPER: But I mean, every police officer wants to protect his investigation and yet plenty of, you know -- I mean, every police group here in the United States has a spokesman who will at least comes forward and says, you know what? This is what we're kind of doing in general. They don't have to give up details. But you know, from here, it seems to us -- we read that as: they're kind of trying to hide something or they don't really have a grip on what's going on. DESOUSA: No, that's -- I don't believe that's the case. It's simply not done in our system. The authorities do not speak directly to the press. They have their spokesperson, and whenever they feel that anything needs to be said, they will -- the spokesperson will do so. It's a totally different system. It doesn't mean that there is anything being covered up or hidden -- not as far as I know.
COOPER: The father of one of the suspects, this guy Joran Van Der Sloot, has been fighting to see his son. The judge won't allow him to. How unusual is it for a suspect's parents to be denied access to their child, in Aruba?
DESOUSA: It's pretty unusual. I have not heard of another case that, that was the case.
COOPER: So, why would that be the case now? I mean, what is your belief?
DESOUSA: Well, I believe that it is important to the investigation that the father is not allowed to see the son, in order for the truth to be found in this matter.
COOPER: So, in order for them not to compare stories or in some way, get their stories matching. Is that your -- what you are saying?
DESOUSA: That could be a conclusion, yes.
COOPER: How many police officers are there in Aruba? How many, you know, government officials are there actually working on this case? Do you know?
DESOUSA: I don't know how many are working on this case, but I know that they have several expertise -- areas of expertise working on this case and that there is a pretty big police force and detective force working and pounding this case.
COOPER: I mean, you say pretty big. Do you just have a general sense? I mean, are we talking, you know, three dozen...
DESOUSA: No. I don't have any numbers.
COOPER: No. OK.
DESOUSA: It's definitely not three and I think certainly more than a dozen.
COOPER: All right. So, you -- I mean basically you're happy with the pace of the investigation; obviously frustrated, but you feel you are having good communication with the authorities?
DESOUSA: Yes. We have established a good line of communication with the authorities and are confident that we will continue to do so. As far as frustration of not having any answers as yet, the family, of course, is frustrated...
COOPER: Absolutely.
DESOUSA: Because, of course, they want to know where their daughter is and her well being. They're very concerned about it.
COOPER: Absolutely.
DESOUSA: But as I understand from the authorities, they are working this case...
COOPER: OK.
DESOUSA: And it's a very delicate and complicated investigation.
COOPER: Vinda, I appreciate you joining us.Vinda DeSousa. DESOUSA: You're very welcome.
COOPER: That's 360 for this evening. Primetime coverage continues now with Paula Zahn. Hey, Paula.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
