Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Aftermath of Divorce; Democrats Celebrate Gubernatorial Election Wins; One Killed, Two Wounded in Tennessee High School Shooting
Aired November 08, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Welcome to 360.
We begin with a groundbreaking new survey on divorce. It's a subject that affects an enormous number of Americans, and yet really isn't that much talked about.
Here's the amazing thing. When you come right down to it, given how much divorce there is in this country, the figure usually bandied about is that half of all marriages end in divorce. Last year, there were one million of them. The focus of this new survey is on those most affected by divorce, the children. We are going to be talking in a few minutes with a couple of experts about the sobering results of that new groundbreaking survey about the affects of divorce, the long- term affects, on children.
First, though, from Randi Kaye, a look not at statistics, but at real people.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE, "THE SQUID AND THE WHALE")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I love you and I want to see you as much as your mother does.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: But there's seven days.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: So, how will you split evenly with seven days?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Oh. I have got you Tuesday, Wednesday and Saturday and every other Thursday.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Every other?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: That's how we each have you equally.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: That was your father's idea.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Don't do this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Emotional scenes like this one from the movie "The Squid and the Whale" play out daily in homes across America, parents splitting up, families breaking up, children breaking down.
(on camera): Did they ever sit you down and say, Rachel, we are getting divorced?
RACHEL COHEN, CHILD OF DIVORCE: I think so. I -- I remember getting a book, or -- or two books, you know, that described and said, you know, it is not your fault.
KAYE (voice-over): Rachel Cohen's parents were divorced when she was just 4. At 32, she is undergoing intense therapy to deal with the emotional effects of that divorce.
John Stone was just 9 when his parents divorced.
JOHN STONE, CHILD OF DIVORCE: I felt horrible . And I cried. I had to cry pillow that I used to cry on when -- when there was something terrible that happened.
KAYE: Aside from the initial shock, Stone says he hasn't suffered any side-effects, two children, two divorces -- two very different stories.
STONE: My father moved out. But what was really nice was that he didn't move far away. And, suddenly, we were having shorter stints, but quality time, where we were really spending time together.
KAYE: Stone is married, Cohen single. She struggles with relationships, worries about making people angry, making people leave.
COHEN: In the past few years, I think there's a real -- I had a realization that I was afraid that, if I did anything wrong, that people would go away.
KAYE: Stone never worried about that and, unlike Cohen, never needed therapy.
STONE: Looking around, on balance, my case is very, very fortunate and lucky.
KAYE: For Cohen, a battle is raging within. She still feels trapped between her artist mother and analytical father.
COHEN: The things that didn't work with the two of them are still in me and are still not necessarily working.
KAYE: One child scarred, the other unscathed -- the debate over how divorce really affects children continues.
Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: We turn now to the study that we mentioned earlier, this groundbreaking study in effects of divorce on children who go through it. We are joined now by two experts in the field, both very aware of the latest findings, which are that there is no such thing as an amicable divorce for kids. That's one person's opinion, Elizabeth Marquardt, who conducted the study and wrote about the results in her book "Between Two Worlds." And, in San Diego, we are joined by Professor Constance Ahrons, author of "The Good Divorce," two very different opinions.
Professor Ahrons, let me start with you.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You say that a good divorce is better for kids than a bad marriage. What -- what exactly is a good divorce?
DR. CONSTANCE AHRONS, AUTHOR, "THE GOOD DIVORCE": Well, actually, Anderson, there's two elements to a good divorce. One is that the parents get along sufficiently well that they can focus on their kids as parents and be parents.
And the other element is that children continue to have relationships with both parents. So, that's what makes a good divorce. It is not that parents are great friends. It's not that divorce is good. That's often the mis -- misinterpretation of it. It's that some divorces, as we saw with, you know, your earlier segment, that some divorces are better for kids than others.
COOPER: Well, Elizabeth, let me ask you about that. You have said there's really no such thing as a good divorce. And do -- I mean, do you think parents should stay together just for the sake of the kids?
ELIZABETH MARQUARDT, AUTHOR, "BETWEEN TWO WORLDS": What we found in the study, this first ever study of the young adults who grew up in divorced families, a nationally representative study, was that there is no such thing as a good divorce. A good divorce is better than a bad divorce, but it is not good.
It turns out that the way the parents divorce, whether or not that they're good at divorce, matters less than the divorce itself. The divorce itself is the main problem for children of divorce, not whether their parents fight.
COOPER: So this notion that, you know, if -- if the parents stay amicable and -- and adults, basically, you're saying, that's not enough?
MARQUARDT: It's not enough, because it turns out that any kind of divorce, whether it's amicable or not, requires children to grow up traveling between two worlds, having to make sense alone of their parents' very different beliefs and values...
COOPER: And how did you study this?
MARQUARDT: ... which is the job that the parents no longer are required to do. We studied it through a nationally representative telephone survey of 1,500 young adults, half from divorced families and half from intact families. And I write about this in my new book, as someone who was herself a child of divorce. This is the first study of children of divorce conducted by someone who was herself a child of divorce.
And I'm telling our -- our generation's story for the first time.
COOPER: Professor Ahrons, what do you think about the study?
AHRONS: I -- you know, the study has not been published in any scientific journal, so I -- I haven't been to get a good feel for the methodology.
How -- however, my own study, which is a 20-year longitudinal study, where I have actually interviewed the parents in person three times over five years, and then the adult children 20 years later, shows that 80 percent of the children come through divorce -- they all suffer pain at the time of divorce. I'm not negating the amount of pain that children suffer. But they come through divorce as emotionally healthy adults. And most all of the other research indicates that.
MARQUARDT: My study, the full survey results are available in the book.
And Constance Ahrons' study of the grown children of divorce involved only 128 young people. And she had no comparison group of those from intact families. So, her percentages are -- really tell us about that 128 people. It's a very small group. It doesn't tell you about children...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Elizabeth, one of the questions that you asked the participants is whether or not they would describe their family as stressful. Fifty-one percent of children of -- of what might be termed good divorces agreed with that statement, as compared to only 35 percent of those in unhappy marriages. What do you make of that?
MARQUARDT: That's right. One of the striking findings to come out of our study was that children of good divorces often fare worse than those from unhappy marriages, so long as the marriage low- conflict. And most marriages that end in divorce now are low- conflict.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: But that's the -- I mean, that's key point. You are saying so long as it's low-conflict.
Professor Ahrons, I mean, I imagine...
AHRONS: Yes.
COOPER: ... there are a lot of divorces out which are not low- conflict.
AHRONS: Absolutely.
We are finding about 50 percent of the divorces are not low- conflict. We have absolutely no empirical data or clinical data that would say that low-conflict divorces, in some way, low-conflict marriages lead to worse situations for children. Also, you have to remember that, in the Marquardt study, they don't talk to the parents. So, it is the children's reflections on what their parents' marriages are.
I can tell you, in interviewing siblings, that one sibling can see it one way and one sibling can see it another.
COOPER: I don't want to -- I don't want to get too much into a battle of studies, because I think it is just -- it is going to confuse a lot of people.
And there are a lot of people out there who, you know, may be suffering this themselves or going through it or kids going through it.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: So I want to ask for -- for both of you, some advice, some practical advice, of what people out there can do.
Professor Ahrons, I mean, if parents decide they -- they must divorce...
AHRONS: Yes.
COOPER: ... what should they tell their kids to try to -- I mean, lessening the pain, that's -- it's probably not even possible. What should -- how should they go about telling their kids?
AHRONS: Well, I think you are right about that. The pain is there, but they can reduce the stress.
What kids want to know is, what is going to happen to me? What's my life going to be like? What parents need to do is to have a plan. They need to say how it's going to work out for the kids. They need to reassure the kids that it is not the kids' fault. The parents need to take responsibility. The parents themselves, if they are in a great deal of conflict and anger, need to get some help to reduce that, so that they can continue to work with the kids.
What kids want to know is, am I still going to see mommy and daddy? What is my -- what is my birthday going to be like? What is my family going to be like? And parents have to tell kids that. And they have to tell them that over and over and over again.
COOPER: Elizabeth, your thoughts?
MARQUARDT: If you are in a low-conflict marriage, the idea of a good divorce is really very misleading. It makes you think that, so long as you divorce the right way, your children will be fine. It's simply not true.
The other problem with the good-divorce idea is that it silences the true lives and experiences of the children. And that's the story that I tell in my book.
COOPER: Well, our viewers can look at both those books.
Professor Constance Ahrons, the book is "The Good Divorce."
And Elizabeth Marquardt -- it is "Between Two Worlds."
A fascinating discussion -- we appreciate you both joining us.
MARQUARDT: Thank you.
AHRONS: Thank you.
COOPER: Want to turn now to some breaking news.
Election results are in, in a state race with a national backdrop.
CNN's John King joins us with the late returns.
John, what is happening?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, two races for governor dominating the off-year elections this year -- and Democrats celebrating in both of those states.
One of them is the state of Virginia. CNN is projecting that Lieutenant Governor Tim Kaine will be the next governor of Virginia -- CNN also projecting Democrat Jon Corzine, a United States senator now, will be the next governor in the state of New Jersey.
One other projection, this one from the Associated Press, a Republican victory -- Democrat-turned Republican Michael Bloomberg, the AP says, will be reelected as the mayor of New York -- so, Democratic celebrations in Virginia and New Jersey, a bit of Democratic frustration in New York.
Let's take a closer look at the governor results. This is Virginia, again, Tim Kaine projecting to win that race. He's running against a Republican, Jerry Kilgore. So far, Mr. Kaine getting 52 percent.
That's New Jersey there. Maybe we can back to Virginia, if we can.
No? OK.
Well, so no -- New Jersey Governor, Jon Corzine getting 54 percent, Doug Forrester, the Republican, 43 percent. Again, Jon Corzine will be the next governor of New Jersey, a Democrat.
Anderson, these off-year elections, often it can be overstated, the national implications -- but the Democrats, of course, celebrating those races tonight, one year after the Republican, President George W. Bush, won reelection. Look for the Republicans and the Democrats, especially, to analyze that race in Virginia, a red state President Bush carried last year, a state where he campaigned on election eve for the Republican candidate. You can't blame President Bush completely, but Republicans certainly think the demoralized Republican base right now is one factor in the Democratic victory in Virginia tonight.
A number of state ballot initiatives on gay rights, repealing gas tax and other initiatives, we will continue to track those throughout the evening.
COOPER: And we will have to look at turnout results as well.
KING: That's right.
COOPER: John King, we will join you a little bit later on for the latest.
Here are some other stories we are following at this moment.
In Washington, another possible CIA leak investigation -- U.S. officials tell CNN, the CIA has sent a report to the Justice Department indicating classified information may have been leaked to "The Washington Post" for its recent story about secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe. Republican congressional leaders have asked for an investigation into the possible leak.
In France, will curfews around the country help dampen arson and emotions? Latest reports in CNN -- to CNN suggests that a -- it is a quieter night tonight. We are about five hours ahead here, so it's about 3:00 a.m. in Paris right now. Police changes are also in the works, one of them a new jobs program targeting riot zone areas where unemployment is close to 40 percent.
To Baghdad now -- a second defense lawyer executed. An attorney for one of Saddam Hussein's co-defendants was shot to death just weeks after a colleague's assassination. The mounting violence surrounding the trial is one more challenge for the U.S. Watch to see if the trial resumes as scheduled on November 28.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: When ANDERSON COOPER 360 returns, a terrible replay -- a student opens fire at a school -- one dead, two wounded, hundreds of families terrified. Six years after Columbine, the question remains, are our schools safe?
Another terrible replay -- a teenager on life support, his parents fighting over what's next.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He needs to be given the chance to -- to live.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't agree with him at all. ANNOUNCER: Re-sparking the white-hot debate of the Terri Schiavo case.
And an age-old story, people forcing out animals, but this time, it's elephants and gorillas, and the people are the survivors of horrific genocide -- a delicate balance in a fragile land.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, it has happened again. Even years later, the names still raise a chill, Paducah, Jonesboro, Columbine. Tonight, a new town, another -- another boy, but the terror is just the same.
CNN's David Mattingly joins us now.
David, what's happened?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, about a little after 2:00 today, a 15-year-old student wielding a handgun shot and killed an assistant principal, then badly wounded the principal and another assistant principal.
And the -- the suspect was taken into custody after he was subdued by staff here at the -- at the high school. He was taken to a hospital, where he was treated for what appeared to be a gunshot wound to his own hand, suggesting there might have been some -- a -- a struggle going on afterward.
But police here tonight are continuing to look for any bit of evidence that they can. As soon as this happened, the school went into a lockdown. The students were not allowed leave their classes. This went on for about two hours, before they were finally let out and everyone was finally able to figure out what had happened here -- so many people shocked and absolutely stunned by what happened. So many times, we have heard today that: I can't believe this happened here in our small town.
But this tragedy definitely has come to roost here, after taking the life of a very popular assistant principal here -- Anderson.
COOPER: This is Jacksboro, Tennessee, we are talking about. How big a place is Jacksboro?
MATTINGLY: Not very big at all.
In fact, when I asked the sheriff exactly how many people were here, he said, he couldn't really tell me. It is just that he gave me the county at large, but there were 1,300 students here at the school. This is the one big high school for this county, so not many people at all. Everyone knew the people at this school, particularly this administrator, an assistant principal, Ken Bruce -- students tonight saying he was very well-liked, very approachable, the kind of teacher who would actually give you lunch money if you forgot to bring it with you that day. So, they're talking about him tonight. They're going to be missing him very much in the future.
COOPER: And, David, do we know what time of day this happened?
MATTINGLY: Shortly after 2:00 today.
It happened near the office of the school. In fact, some witnesses at the office say it happened just right there next to them while they were -- they were trying to conduct some business at the school. Police are still trying to figure out what led up to that, why the student was there at the office and what exactly transpired between him and the administrators before those shots were fired.
COOPER: All right, David, appreciate that. I know you just got to the scene. Going to be -- it's going to be a long night and -- and a long couple of days, as we are trying to piece together the information, exactly what occurred in those terrible moments before the shooting.
And here's where the story and the back-story really start coming together. It is very much an evolving process, as David just said. The young man has spoken to the police, but no one is saying what he said. There's a closed crime scene out there tonight, evidence still being gathered, people questioned, statements taken. At some point, the picture is going to snap into focus.
Tonight, though, we only have sketches.
With us now from Jacksboro, Tennessee, Ethan Riggs, who knows the suspect well, and Ethan's cousin, Nathan Lawson, who was at the school today.
Guys, appreciate you being on the program tonight.
You -- Nathan, you were at the school when it all unfolded. What did you see?
NATHAN LAWSON, STUDENT: Well, we couldn't see anything because we were all in class.
And I just heard that -- I just heard about the -- the student going into the office or a room in the office and shooting the principal and assistant principals that were there.
COOPER: And what happened? I mean, you were in class. Did -- did the bell ring? Did classes -- I mean, how did they alert people what happened?
LAWSON: Well, we were already in class. And Mr. Seale got on the intercom and told everyone that we were having a lockdown.
COOPER: And how long did the lockdown last for?
LAWSON: An hour-and-a-half to two hours.
COOPER: Ethan, how long have you known the alleged shooter?
And I should just point out to -- to our viewers, we are not using the young man's name. He is underage. It's policy, CNN policy, not to do that.
How long have you known him?
ETHAN RIGGS, FORMER STUDENT: Well, I knew him for a while back in elementary school, but not much from here for a while back. But back in elementary school, he was an all-right person, hardly ever got in any trouble.
COOPER: Were -- were you surprised to hear he -- he might be involved in a shooting?
RIGGS: Yes, I was.
COOPER: Nathan, how about you? Did you -- did you ever think your classmate was capable of killing?
LAWSON: No, not really.
He's been in some trouble before, but nothing like this. I would never think that he would do anything like this.
COOPER: Do you know what -- what kind of trouble he had been in before?
RIGGS: Well, in middle school, he got suspended for a year for stabbing Mr. Seale with a pencil.
COOPER: He stabbed somebody with a pencil?
RIGGS: Yes, the principal.
COOPER: The principal. OK.
Now, Nathan or Ethan, teen -- I mean, you know, you hear these reports. Teen shooters, they're often described as, you know, kids who have been picked or bullied by peers. Was -- was he that type? Was he a loner? Do -- do you know? Did he get picked on?
RIGGS: Well, in elementary school, he was never picked on. Like I said, he had -- he had friends, just like everybody else. You wouldn't say he was popular or anything. But everybody got along with him.
COOPER: Well, it's got to be a -- a -- just a bizarre day for you, for both of you, and a -- and a tragic day for your school.
And I appreciate both of you -- you being with us to talk about what you know. Thanks very much.
I want to talk a little bit more now on -- on why, not why in this case, because, frankly, we don't know that. And we don't want to speculate. That's unknowable. But why in so many other cases? Because, even though it is too soon to tell whether this one fits a pattern, there's a pattern. And we have seen it time and time again. Bitter experience has taught us that.
Here's CNN's Heidi Collins.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Columbine, Springfield, Pearl, Red Lake, Minnesota, this past March, and now, Jacksboro, Tennessee, it is a list that conjures up images of screaming children, injured victims, and gun-wielding kids, different towns with tragically similar stories.
What makes these young men snap? And what qualities, if any, do school shooters share? According to the FBI, there are dozens of risk factors when it comes to school violence, but there is no one definitive profile of this type of criminal.
Most often, the perpetrator was a white male, age 11 to 18, who was described as feeling picked on or bullied by his peers.
DAN KINDLON, AUTHOR, "RAISING CAIN": We allow boys to be angry and aggressive, but we don't allow them to express fear and sadness and other more vulnerable emotions. So, hence, when they -- when they get rejected or they get disappointed, they have a harder time dealing with that. And it often comes out in anger.
COLLINS: Most of the shooters, like you see in this video of Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris from Columbine High School, had a fascination with firearms or violent video games.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dog, I heard you got some beef with me.
COLLINS: And while there were signs or warnings about their intentions, they were not taken seriously at the time.
RANDY BROWN, FATHER OF COLUMBINE STUDENT: The sheriff's department didn't respond to our reported threats by Eric Harris against our son for 13 months. Columbine would not have happened if they had investigated that to begin with.
COLLINS: Classmates say Klebold and Harris, who brought terror to Littleton, Colorado, in 1998, and Jeff Weise, the Red Lake, Minnesota, teen, who killed nine people and wounded seven before fatally shooting himself, all wore dark trench coats and were fans of Marilyn Manson.
Kip Kinkel, who killed two students in Springfield, Oregon, was a fan of Manson's music as well. According to the FBI, all of the shooters may have felt the desire to defend narcissistic views of themselves and had very low self-esteem.
COLLINS: Luke Woodham killed two students in Pearl, Mississippi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUKE WOODHAM, DEFENDANT: Well, I guess the world is going to remember me know. I'm probably going to get pretty famous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Famous for two things that seemed to unite all of these young men. No one believed they were capable of committing such horrible acts, and no one was able to stop them.
Heidi Collins, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: We hear that over and over again: I -- I never expected they could do such a thing.
Still ahead tonight, more late election returns, more races that could affect you, more questions about how this affects the president and his party.
Also ahead tonight, endangered species in Rwanda, a country rocked by genocide 10 years ago -- we will see how it's affecting the animals still to this day.
Around the country and the world, this is 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: You know, no matter where you stand politically, it's tough to dispute the president's good fortune. Though battered in the polls, this is an off-year for House and Senate races. There are a number of races, however, being decided tonight. And, as they count the votes across the country, we will be giving you the latest on those races, which may have national overtones as well.
Joining us now is CNN's John King and Jeff Greenfield.
Let's start with John King from D.C. with the breaking news on the election results.
John, when's the latest?
KING: Well, Anderson, the Democrats are celebrating in the two biggest races tonight. Those are the races for the governorships in Virginia and New Jersey, CNN projecting that Tim Kaine, currently the lieutenant governor, will be the next governor of the state of Virginia -- Tim Kaine, a Democrat, winning in Virginia, a state President Bush carried a year ago.
And, in New Jersey, another Democratic victory -- Jon Corzine, currently a member of the United States Senate, will be the next governor of New Jersey, according to CNN projections.
One Republican victory tonight, that is in New York City. Mayor Michael Bloomberg, the Associated Press projects, will be reelected as the mayor of New York City, a Democrat-turned-Republican -- so, that a frustrating race for the Democrats. But Democrats will celebrate those two statewide victories, Virginia, of course, the most significant. President Bush carried that state a year ago. He campaigned for the Republican candidate just last night, an election- eve appearance.
Democrats will certainly make the case that the president's troubles continuing in the state of Virginia -- I will say, though, Anderson, I think the bigger national question out of the state of Virginia might be that this helps the current incumbent governor, Mark Warner. He is leaving office and thinking about running for president. His party's strength there tonight will only encourage that.
COOPER: Jeff, any surprises to you?
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: No.
I -- the most startling thing, which we don't often talk about, is the sheer amount of money that these people have. Mike Bloomberg is a $5 billion man who threw $70 million into this campaign. There were ads in Cantonese and Russian.
(LAUGHTER)
GREENFIELD: He won in a landslide.
Across the river...
COOPER: Jon Corzine.
GREENFIELD: Jon Corzine is worth about $300 million, defeated Doug Forrester, a piker, only worth about $50 million. That was a combined campaign of about $50 million.
Mark Warner, who John King just talked about, has a personal wealth of $200 million. And, later tonight, when we go to California, the gentleman named Schwarzenegger you may have heard of, who has about $100 million, threw millions into his successful effort at governor.
COOPER: But can -- can the Democrats really crow about -- about what is going on in Virginia and what is going on in New Jersey?
GREENFIELD: Well, they will.
I mean, they -- they won, and in Virginia particularly. Virginia was one of the first Southern states to -- to go Republican. I think Nixon carried it in 1960. It is significant when a Democrat succeeds a Democrat, not just because it gives Mark Warner talking points. But it is a -- a crimson red state. Do we want to make too much of it? No, we don't.
COOPER: John King, Arnold Schwarzenegger is not on ballot tonight, but some of the critics say he really is with some of these ballot initiatives. When do the polls close there?
KING: The polls close at 11:00 Eastern out in California. And to follow up on the point Jeff just made about perhaps not overstating the impact for the president, I think one of the things we will watch closely tonight is that some of the polls are showing that the American people are a bit testy, shall we say, not patient anymore with all of the politicians. And that, of course, would affect the Republicans more, because they are in power in Washington, controlling the presidency and the Congress. Whether they take it out on Governor Schwarzenegger in California could be another test of that as well.
COOPER: Jeff.
GREENFIELD: One quick point: The election that mattered for next year has already happened. That special election in the Ohio congressional district, with Cincinnati, a rock-ribbed Republican district. Former Iraqi war combat veteran -- I guess he is a present veteran -- Paul Hackett came within four points of beating the Republican in a district that no Democrat has come close to carrying. That's the one that's giving the Republicans willies for next year.
COOPER: All right, Jeff will join me later -- John King as well.
Thanks very much.
Still ahead on 360, a family torn apart over whether to let their son die -- a case that may be heading where Terri Schiavo's did, a 15- year-old boy at the center of it all.
And in a corner of the world where genocide claimed nearly a million lives, a new struggle between man and beast.
Around the world and across America, this is 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: In a moment, a life and death struggle over a 15-year- old boy who is in a coma, who's lying, breathing on a ventilator. The fight is between two parents who are divorced over what to do about their son.
But first a check of the day's headlines. Here is CNN's Erica Hill in Atlanta.
Hey, Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, Anderson. We begin tonight in Jacksboro, Tennessee, where police say a student opened fire on a principal and two assistant principals in an office in a high school. One of the assistant principals was killed, another critically wounded.
In Iraq, the foreign military occupation of that country is authorized to continue at least through December of 2006. That's because today the U.N. Security Council voted to extend the mandate that allows some 157,000 U.S. troops, 22,000 troops from other countries to operate there. The Iraq provisional government requested the extensions. In Australia, supporters of alleged terror suspects tangling with TV reporters shouting, stay away. Australian authorities say they prevented a terrorist attack through their undercover work. Seventeen people were arrested. Officials say they moved in because the alleged plot had passed the planning stage.
Meantime, a very different crowd reaction in Salem, Oregon, where two couples, in-laws who invested $40 in lottery tickets had their claim certified today in a second biggest payout in U.S. lottery history, $340 million smackers. Talk about a little bit of love to share around the family there.
But, Anderson, it sounds like they're really going to lead a very normal life. They're saying may not even get that many more presents under the tree this Christmas.
COOPER: Wow, man, I hope so. You know, you hear all these horror stories about how people react.
HILL: I know.
COOPER: And let's just hope they sock it away and save it up for their kids or something. Erica, thanks. We'll check in with you a little bit later.
You know, it's hard to think of a more agonizing decision that a parent could face, choosing whether to let a child die or to hold out hope no matter what the doctors and all the other experts say. Usually, these horrible decisions are made in private, sometimes, unfortunately, they divide an entire country. The sad case of Terri Schiavo not only tore her family apart, it really reignited a debate as thorny as it is heartbreaking. The case of Janson Jones (ph) is just as complicated and equally heartbreaking. CNN's Rick Sanchez joins us from Bountiful, Utah, with more -- Rick.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, thanks so much, Anderson. This is the new facility where with Janson Jones is going to be staying from now on. His father decided that he should be here.
This is what we know about his case. He was probably unable to breathe according to his parents and experts who have talked to him for about 20 minutes. Now, we have talked to medical experts about this situation. And they tell us if a 15-year-old goes without oxygen for 15 to 20 minutes, what results is usually severe and irreparable brain damage.
Here now is Janson's story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): You're not supposed to have a heart attack when you're only 15 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll never forget the morning that I got the news. SANCHEZ: The news was grim. Margaret's little boy with the likable smile and the dimpled cheeks had experienced full cardiac arrest. What's worse, it happened on this dark street corner one morning while riding his bike to school. He was all alone, no mom, no dad no help, until finally he was spotted by a paramedic on her way to work.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we found him, he was still on his bike. And his head was against cement.
SANCHEZ: Janson Jones was rushed by helicopter to the hospital.
(on camera): Did you think he would be able to pull through?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had faith.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): But then, doctors showed Margaret her son's MRI test and explained to her what results when the brain is deprived of oxygen.
(on camera): Does he blink?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
SANCHEZ: Does he make any sounds?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
SANCHEZ: Nothing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: nothing.
SANCHEZ: Are you convinced that he is, in fact, brain dead?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I am.
SANCHEZ: Margaret made a decision. After talking to hospital officials here at the University of Utah, that she would take her son off of life support. She made the decision, though, not based solely on science or even her own observations. She tells us she made the decision based on her Christianity. Her faith.
And you don't think that God would want you to have your son continuing in the condition he is in now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
SANCHEZ: You're convinced of that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): But God is also the reason Margaret's ex- husband, Janson's father, gives for his decision to keep the boy on life support.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He needs to be given the chance to live. SANCHEZ: Also a devout Christian, John Jones has little faith in what doctors tell him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doctors have been wrong before, or misdiagnosed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't agree with him, at all.
SANCHEZ: In fact, when asked...
(on camera): Do you think letting him go is the Christian thing to do?
(voice-over): She says...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I think so.
SANCHEZ: While he says...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe in the living God and I believe that you can still perform miracles, as you want to call them.
SANCHEZ: Two parents, one God. And one life or death decision that may end up being settled in a court of law.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Rick, how could this wind up in the courts?
SANCHEZ: Well, here in the state of Utah, because the father had custody of the child, they have been divorced now for three years, he would be able to make the decision. However, if the mother decides that she wants to take him to court to see if her decision is allowed, all the folks in this state that I have talked to who have dealt with matters like this in the past say judges usually allow the evidence to be heard from both sides. That would mean, Anderson, what you would have is another court battle, as you alluded to earlier, similar to the Schiavo case.
COOPER: All right. Rick Sanchez in Bountiful, thanks very much, Rick.
You know, it's been more than seven months now since Terri Schiavo's life came to an end. She died March 31st, 13 days after her feeding tube was removed. Up to that point, we got know Schiavo's parents and her husband fairly well as their fight played out all too publicly on television.
Since Terri's death, they haven't been seen much on the national stage, but their battles go on. Tonight, in a new segment we're calling "Memory Lapse," we take a look at what the family is doing right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Terri's husband, Michael, is back in the news, making a splash in politics far from home by endorsing the candidacy of Democrat Tim Kaine for governor of Virginia in tonight's election. Michael Schiavo spoke out against politicians intervening in family affairs. He has also been busy writing about his side of the battle over his wife. He and an author Michael Hersh (ph) are collaborating on a book titled "Terri: The Truth." It's scheduled to be released in March, and that will once again put him at odds with Terri's parents whose still untitled memoir will be released that same month.
The Schindler's book will share their struggle to keep Terri alive, a story they've been telling through speeches and public statements. Last week, at a convention in Omaha, Nebraska, Bob and Mary Schindler called Terri's death, quote, "judicial homicide," and hinted that euthanasia advocates may have been behind it. The Schindlers also have been fighting the right-to-die movement through the Terri Schindler Schiavo Foundation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: No doubt when those books come out, we'll be hearing about this case for quite some time to come.
Still to come on 360 tonight, it's unlike anything you've ever seen before. Animal expert Jack Hanna takes us to a place where people and wildlife try to coexist. A place where both share a horrific past.
And later, a new look at your sex life. A new survey is out, the most extensive they say in 50 years. See how you may compare to some others out there. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: A little bit more than a decade ago in the central African nation of Rwanda, something unspeakable happened: genocide, though the U.S. refused to call it that at first. Eight hundred thousand people at least, women, men, and children were brutally killed, hacked to death, stabbed, thrown into rivers.
Today, the genocide's effects are still haunting both the survivors and the wildlife in Rwanda. You see, many of those who fled, some of them settled in an animal refuge. Renowned wildlife advocate Jack Hanna, director emeritus of the Columbus Zoo recently went to Rwanda to see how the people and animals are coexisting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Rwanda, this breathtakingly beautiful land is soaked in blood. The people living with the pain of their history. Akagera National Park, once a spectacular wildlife refuge, is now refuge to many Rwandans who survived the genocide and returned to their native land trying to start life anew.
There are so many people in Rwanda now, they've taken over two- thirds of the national park. And because of that, Rwanda now faces a problem. What will happen to the wildlife? How will the animals coexist with museums?
That's what Jack Hanna, the renowned wildlife advocate, wanted to find out as he went in search of wild elephants. They're said to be 80 elephants in Akagera, but for Hanna and his crew, finding even one was not unlike looking for that proverbial needle in a haystack.
JACK HANNA, DIRECTOR EMERITUS, COLUMBUS ZOO: Now, the elephant's back that way, right?
COOPER: Hanna hired a boat to take him to a fishing village where there had been reports of a male elephant. They searched for hours and hours and finally...
HANNA: See the elephant? Oh, yes, see it!
COOPER: But even an wildlife expert like Hanna was surprised to find such a mighty creature submerged in lake water. It was very unusual behavior.
HANNA: Look at that, he's like a submarine. He's going to use his trunk. Look at that. Look at him move. He is going fast. That is fast. Big elephant.
COOPER: An estimated 11 feet tall, weighing perhaps 14,000 pounds, the mature bull elephant was as big and angry as any they had seen before. And he started to pursue them.
SANCHEZ: That is fast. Remember, elephants can swim, everybody. They've got like a periscope. I don't know if he's walking or swimming but he is moving.
COOPER: Hanna and his crew beat it to shore and to safety, not realizing that in April, the U.S. embassy in Kigali had issued a warning to American tourists about a a rogue elephant charging visitors.
HANNA: (INAUDIBLE) trunk, go like this.
COOPER: On shore, Hanna was greeted by local kids.
HANNA: That's it, that's it!
COOPER: And in exchange for his kindness, they shared a little- known secret about the rogue elephant. It turns out this monster of the deep was, in fact, an old friend of the children's. And to prove it, they lured him in with sweet words and sweet potatoes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.
HANNA: Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. That's something else. That's all I can tell you.
COOPER: Akagera National Park may not be all that it once was, nor, of course, is Rwanda, but Jack Hanna says that there is a sense of healing, and, as in the mighty steps of elephants, there are small steps being made towards recovery. (END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Had you ever seen behavior like that in an elephant before?
HANNA: No. Not in the wild. When I saw the kids doing it, I went up there and I said, I can't believe this big bull elephant, a wild bull elephant, but the kids had -- you know, animals know people. He knew no harm in that village, and they actually were taking care of it. And, of course, when he went into musk, I guess he tipped over a jeep or two, and you had to be careful when that happens.
COOPER: And we're going to take a quick break and we'll be back with Jack Hanna, a lot more coming up tonight on 360. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Before the break, we went to Africa with renowned wildlife advocate Jack Hanna, director emeritus at the Columbus Zoo. He took us to a region of Rwanda where those who survived the genocide of 11 years ago -- or 10.5 years ago, are living side-by-side with wildlife. We showed you the huge elephant he encountered. And that wasn't all he saw. Jack Hanna joins me now once again to show us exclusive footage of mountain gorillas he visited.
We were just talking about Rwanda. I've been there a lot over the years and have visited these gorillas. It's a most incredible animal viewing I think on the planet, at least for me.
HANNA: Well, it's not just the viewing, it's the experience, Anderson, of being there. It's just -- people don't realize they can all do it as well. This last year, tourism increased 67 percent in Rwanda. And the gorilla population under President Kagame has increased 17 percent, one of the only countries in Africa where the animals are really increasing as far as population.
COOPER: And you can go -- I mean, you -- some of the footage that we're showing now is footage that you shot. And it is just -- it's incredible. And anyone can go, a tourist can go...
HANNA: Exactly.
COOPER: And as long as they, you know, do it respectfully, can go and sit with these gorillas, just as you are.
HANNA: Yes. Right there, one hour. And of course, you are not allowed to approach them. They approach you. And that's what you see here. These animals approach you. Now this is one actually that was taken out of the wild and brought to a veterinarian's place right there below Virunga (ph), as you know, where the gorillas are. That's a lowland gorilla there, that's what you're seeing there, one that was brought there. And, of course, you just can't put it back out in the wild yet.
The mountain gorilla, as you well know, are the ones with the much longer hair, that live up about 8,000 feet, that's where you went to visit.
COOPER: Yes. I went there on vacation this summer and it's...
HANNA: There they are right there.
COOPER: It's just incredible. They're climbing all around you. They literally brush by you at times. What are the similarities to humans? I mean, everyone always says how much like humans they appear.
HANNA: Well, the similarities are it's a family structure. And you watch the 4 -- and 3 and 4 years old play with the little 8- to 10-week-old babies, you know, while the mother might let them go away just a little bit. And you see the protection. They're not a King Kong-type of animal.
And the neat thing about it is there will be a Webcam up there, John Dick (ph), my friend, has got the tower up there so people can click on it within a year from now, and watch the gorillas in the wild.
COOPER: You're kidding, really?
HANNA: Unbelievable.
COOPER: That's amazing.
HANNA: Unbelievable.
COOPER: Wow. The genocide, I mean, it permeates everything still in Rwanda. I mean, Kagame has done a remarkable job with the country. How did you -- I mean, how has it impacted on the animals?
HANNA: Well, as far as the animals, President Kagame, a lot of the refugees came back in. Some of them got into the parks. But now what he's done, he's protected those parks where no one, absolutely nobody is allowed to go inside the park boundaries now. The gorillas are coming back 17 percent. Tourism is up, as I said. Lake Akagera National Park is incredible. They even now have the habituation of chimpanzees.
You can actually now -- I just was one of the first people to go there, and so you can go to one of the only countries in Africa and see the chimpanzees in the wild as well as the gorillas.
COOPER: Really. You also worked with a woman, Rosemund Carr (ph), who runs an orphanage, and you have some video of what she has done. She has been there for years.
HANNA: For about 45 years.
COOPER: She's a legend in that country. She is a remarkable lady.
HANNA: Yes, she really is. We have given the Columbus Zoo with Partners in Conservation, we raised almost $1.4 million for the orphanage as well as the artisans, women with the artisans that do the baskets, and the beekeepers. So we're teaching people how to have productive lives in Rwanda. This is her right here. And these are the kids, by the way, in the old orphanage, and now she is moving them up to her home in the mountains, about an hour out of Gisenyi, as you well know, on the border of the Democratic Republic of Congo.
And what we did, we brought all sorts of things for the orphans there. Incredible, incredible children.
COOPER: And these are kids whose parents were killed in the genocide?
HANNA: Right, exactly. And by the way, it's all one in Rwanda right now, as we were talking. No Tutsis and Hutus anymore, President Kagame said it is all one Rwanda. We all are together now.
COOPER: It's interesting now because you go there and people are offended if you ask, are you Hutu or are you Tutsi?
HANNA: Exactly.
COOPER: Because they don't want those divisions.
HANNA: No. They don't want those divisions and yet, they all live together and you would think that you would have that division. But you sure don't have it. You have a tremendous love there. And by the way, it's probably now the cleanest country I've ever seen in Africa. I could not believe what I saw...
COOPER: Yes. The road system is incredible (INAUDIBLE). What's amazing, too, is you go to see the gorillas and you start talking to the guides who are taking you up and you ask them, did you lose anyone? And they will just turn and without blinking an eye, tell you, you know, all my family is gone.
HANNA: Yes. We had a guy do the same exact thing. And we said, how -- where's your family? And he said, you know, I lost my dad. And then he goes right along and talks to his buddy who might be a Hutu or a Tutsi. And so -- but they never ever mention that whatsoever. But I think it's the greatest turnaround of any country in the world in the last 10 years.
COOPER: And the gorillas are coming back, aren't they? I mean...
HANNA: Oh, yes, 17 percent increase. And, of course, Rwanda has about 370 right now. Uganda has about another 300. So you're talking about a species that is very, very vital as far as their numbers are concerned. You know, if somebody got a cold up there, like the veterinary projects doing a great job up there right now, you would have a disaster up there. So that's why they're being very careful, the people can't have colds if they go up and visit the gorillas, that type of thing.
COOPER: Jack, it's always good to see you. I'm glad you spent so much time in Rwanda and I'm glad you talk as fast as I do. HANNA: Oh, yes, I do.
(LAUGHTER)
HANNA: I have got a little cottage in (INAUDIBLE) there, so I'm going to spend a lot of time over there.
COOPER: Well, you're doing great things for the country.
HANNA: Thank you.
COOPER: Appreciate it, thanks..
HANNA: Thank you.
COOPER: We have a lot ahead tonight on 360. A horrible case of deja vu, another deadly school shooting, this time in Tennessee. We're going to have the latest on this developing story.
Also, why some are calling the riots in France that country's Katrina: problems long in the making that the violence has now revealed.
And a report card, well, on our collective sex lives. The biggest -- Jack, you'll want to stick around for this, the biggest study since the Kinsey Report they say, so how much have we changed in our habits in the last 50 years? You actually get your questions answered about this because you can call us at 1-877-648-3639, that's 1-877-638-3639, or e-mail us by going to our Web site, cnn.com/360, and put your questions to some experts.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back to the second hour of 360. We know that women are essential. But are men even necessary? I'll talk to New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd about her latest book.
Also, the latest details in the fatal school shooting. Second hour of 360 starts now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Should torture be banned during interrogations? The White House says the ban isn't necessary, but without it, some fear the military will go too far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd stick a knife in somebody's thigh in a heartbeat.
ANNOUNCER: Plus, let's talk about sex. The biggest study on America's collective sex life in 50 years, and you won't believe the results. We're taking your calls.
This is ANDERSON COOPER 360 live from the CNN studios in New York, here's Anderson Cooper.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Thanks very much for joining us. Let's look at some of the other stories that are making headlines right now.
At this moment, a fatal school shooting in Jacksboro, Tennessee, leaves an assistant principal dead. No students were injured. Authorities are holding a 15-year-old in the attack. The school's principal and a second assistant principal are hospitalized with serious wounds.
Another CIA leak probe may be in the works. This time the question is who told The Washington Post that the CIA is operating prisons in Eastern Europe? Republican congressional leaders have asked for an investigation.
To Baghdad now, another defense attorney in Saddam Hussein's trial is murdered, a second co-defendant's lawyer was gunned down. The killings are raising questions about whether the trial will resume as scheduled on November 28th.
Indiana now, the mobile home park residents who survived Sunday's deadly tornado will be allowed back to the area tomorrow. Authorities put the official death count at 22 people in two Indiana counties.
Back to Jacksboro, Tennessee, now, where tonight Campbell County Comprehensive High School is a crime scene, the site of today's deadly school shooting. CNN's David Mattingly joins us with the latest on the investigation -- David.
MATTINGLY: Anderson, some new information for you at this hour. We're hearing from Knoxville that Principal Gary Seale and Assistant Principal Jim Pierce are both out of surgery at this hour. Both of them are now listed in serious condition.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
