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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Missing Pennsylvania Woman Found Alive 10 Years Later; Should Donald Rumsfeld Resign?; College Students Help Gulf Coast Rebuild; Tennesee Pastor's Family is Found; Bill Clinton Discusses Weight Struggle
Aired March 23, 2006 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
We are back in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans, along with about 1,000 college students from all around the country. There are a lot of them here with Campus Crusade For Christ. They are here for a very good reason. Take a look at this crowd here.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
COOPER: They have all gathered here to help the people of New Orleans rebuild. They are volunteers. They are college students on their spring break. They are living in this old church that has been converted.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
COOPER: That is the room they're sleeping in. The conditions are rough, to say the least.
But all these kids could have gone elsewhere. They could have gone down to Florida and gone to spring break parties. Instead, they decided to come here to New Orleans and to -- to Mississippi. And they're doing remarkable work here. And we are going to ill tell you about that through this next hour.
But we begin with a girl who was missing for 10 years, only to resurface this week, and with a horrific tale to tell.
Take a look at her. Her name is Tanya Kach. Now, about the time she disappeared from her Pennsylvania home in 1969, she was just 14 years old. She was in eighth grade. That is the last time her family saw her alive. This is Tanya Kach now, a grown woman, 24 years old. Tonight, she's back home, back with her father, after allegedly being locked in a bedroom for a decade by her school security guard, who lived just two miles from where she grew up.
Tonight, all the angles on this bizarre story -- why did it take so long to locate her or for anyone to notice who she was? After all, the woman says, at times, she was free to go to a nearby deli, even attend Sunday church services.
Also, why didn't she open the door and walk away? She had a lot of chances to do it. Tonight, we will talk to a child psychiatrist with a possible explanation. And, in a moment, we will hear her side of the story -- but, first, the whole story of a cold case finally solved.
CNN's Heidi Collins investigates.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TANYA NICOLE KACH, MISSING FOR 10 YEARS: Everybody, this is my dad.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This isn't just a story about happy reunions. The way Tanya Nicole Kach tells it, this is also a story about lies, a terrible 10-year-long string of lies.
It begins in 1996, when she was an eighth-grader from a broken home going to a suburban Pittsburgh middle school, and, she says, going through a rough time. She began a romantic relationship with the school's security guard.
KACH: And I thought I had found someone who loved me, and said he would take care for me. So, I -- you know, and I -- I thought that I wasn't loved at home. And he says: "Don't worry. I will take care of you. I love you."
COLLINS: So, at age 14, Tanya says she ran away with a 37-year- old man and did not find what she expected.
KACH: I was in a room, a bedroom, for 10 years.
COLLINS: Tanya says she knew what was happening to her wasn't normal, wasn't right.
KACH: There were times when I would -- I would threaten to leave. And there were times he threatened to kill me.
COLLINS: But did she ever think of telling anyone?
KACH: I did, but I thought I would be on the streets, because I didn't think anybody cared, because he would tell me: "Your case is dead. It is cold."
COLLINS: But it wasn't cold, or dead.
Tanya's parents made sure of that. She was still listed in a national database of missing children, when, this week, she told her story to the owner of a convenience store, who then told the police.
JOSEPH SPARICO, STORE OWNER: I didn't believe it at first. But, then, I -- she says, if you go on the Web site for missing children, you will see my name.
COLLINS: The man she was living with, Thomas Hose, has now been arrested. He was not charged with kidnapping, but with having sex with a minor. And, through his attorney, he denies any wrongdoing.
JAMES ECKER, ATTORNEY FOR THOMAS HOSE: I'm not admitting to you at any -- in any way, way, shape or form that she stayed with him or lived with him. That's something that we will find out at a -- you know, at a trial. But I certainly know that she was not kidnapped, physically abused in any way.
COLLINS: Both Hose's attorney and law enforcement say, the story is more complicated than Tanya indicates. Tanya Kach says, all she wants to do now is finish school, do volunteer work, and spend time with her parents.
JERRY KACH, FATHER OF TANYA NICOLE KACH: I got my girl.
KACH: My dad loves me.
COLLINS: Heidi Collins, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: It is a truly bizarre story. Tanya Kach says she was stunned to learn that her father never stopped looking for her. And that's not all she had to say, after disappearing for a decade.
Tonight, her words:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KACH: I was just looking for love, and not -- you know, I didn't -- I was going through a rough time, you know, teenage years.
And then I met him. And he was like: "You know, don't worry. You know. I love you. I will take care of you."
I was in a room, a bedroom, for 10 years. I didn't see the light of day. I mean -- I mean, I did, through the windows, but didn't go out, didn't see people.
I started reading books. And I would have to turn the TV down real low, turn the radio down real low. And, then, he finally got a TV that I could put headphones in and -- and the radio where I can put headphones in, you know?
And I just sat around. Sometimes, I would go to sleep in the afternoon, just to pass the time. There were times when I would -- I would threaten to leave, and there were times he threatened to kill me, just -- not many. Then, there were times he would pull a guilt trip on me.
For four years, I wore hand-me-downs from him and his son for a year -- for up -- until 2000. And, then, after all those years, I guess, you know, I was a little unrecognizable. I could go out and -- every now and then, and buy clothes.
I mean, I went out here and there from 2000 on, but it was few and far between. But to actually be out and talk to people, it was a luxury for me. I like people. I like talking to people. But I couldn't say nothing.
But, finally, they -- they kept pursuing it, which meant they cared. And (INAUDIBLE) I broke down and then I had to tell them. But I asked them: Don't let me be on the streets. I just want my dad and my mom and my family.
I didn't get to go to school. I didn't graduate. I didn't have sweet 16. I didn't get to go to the prom. I didn't get to (INAUDIBLE) real life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: As I said, there are lots of questions about this case tonight.
Helping us with some of the answers is Jill King Greenwood, a reporter for "The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review." Her story was on the front page today -- the headline, "Finally Free."
Jill joins us now on the phone.
Jill, you interviewed Tanya yesterday. What is she like?
JILL KING GREENWOOD, "THE PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW": You know, Tanya is so articulate and so intelligent and comes across as such a together, mature woman.
But, then, she has times where she reverts back to her 14-year- old self, and she questions everything she does. She asked for permission to use the bathroom, permission to smoke a cigarette, permission to go clothes shopping. She's -- she's very contradicted. And you can tell that she has been through a lot.
COOPER: You -- you have seen an affidavit from a beautician in town, who says that she cut and dyed Tanya's hair back in 1996.
Tell us more about the beautician and her involvement in the story. I mean, did she know what was going on?
GREENWOOD: Yes, she was a good friend of Thomas Hose, according to Tanya in -- in the affidavit.
And she agreed to help Tanya run away. She concealed her identity. She -- Tanya has a very long, blonde hair, but she cut it very short and dyed it red. And she agreed to let Tanya, once she, you know, ran away from her father's house, to stay at her house on and off, and to meet up with Thomas Hose in her house.
And, at one point, the children youth services agency came and knocked on her door -- her name is Judy Sokal (ph) -- and asked about the disappearance of Tanya. And she claimed no knowledge. And this is all according to the affidavit.
COOPER: And I -- I'm just seeing a video of the guy who allegedly did all this.
Now, I mean, I had read a report that, at times, his parents lived in that house, and maybe a son of his lived in that house. How could those people have lived in that house and not known that Tanya was up in the bedroom? GREENWOOD: Well, the police believe her story. They believe that she was locked in that bedroom for a very long time, the majority of this 10 years.
And they also believe that the parents lived there for most of that time. However, when the parents would come upstairs, the suspect, Thomas Hose, would order her, according to her and the police, to get into a closet and hide.
She was instructed to stay on the bed most of the day. If she had to get up and walk around, she was to tiptoe. And he made her memorize every floor board and where it creaked, so she could avoid them. You know, he gave her headphones, so that, if she wanted to watch TV or listen to the radio, she wouldn't be heard.
He only let her out -- after four years, he only let her out to go down to the basement in the middle of the night to take a shower. And they believe her story, that -- that the parents honestly did not know she was up there.
COOPER: Well, obviously, more details are going to be coming out in the next couple of days. Jill King Greenwood, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.
We...
GREENWOOD: Thank you.
COOPER: We can only imagine the -- the kind of trauma that Tanya Kach has been through. Frankly, I -- I can't even imagine it. But, still, there is one question. Why, in all this time, a decade, didn't she just walk away?
Dr. Helen Morrison is a child psychiatrist. She joins us now from Salt Lake City.
Doctor, Tanya, reportedly, was held captive for the first four years, but, after that, had access to a phone, to people. If she -- if she was as bad as she said it was, why didn't she leave?
DR. HELEN MORRISON, CHILD PSYCHIATRIST: She couldn't leave.
She was essentially a prisoner of a very strong personality. We call this the Stockholm syndrome, in which a person who is taken hostage becomes clearly identified with their captor. And, regardless of whether they're in chains or not, they cannot leave. They have no free will to leave.
COOPER: She -- she looks like a 24-year-old woman, but, sometimes, when she talks, she sounds like a much younger person. I mean, is that part of that Stockholm syndrome? What -- what happened to her emotionally, if this is true?
MORRISON: Well, what happened to her emotionally is, she was never able to socialize beyond the age of a very young and immature 14. She did not have peers. She was not able to be around other individuals. And, so, she, emotionally, is essentially stuck at a very young age, 14. Even though she may be articulate and smart and look mature, she certainly is not.
COOPER: And -- and let's rewind 10 years. Tanya was -- was reportedly kissing this guy, Hose, in the hallways at her middle school.
MORRISON: Yes.
COOPER: She was just 14. He was 37, a 23-year age difference.
MORRISON: Right.
COOPER: I mean, he -- he sounds like a pedophile.
MORRISON: Yes, he does.
And what I'm very interested in is that people knew this was happening. Was there no intervention that was done?
COOPER: Can a person recover from -- from this kind of abuse?
MORRISON: The person is going to have a very difficult time. First of all, there's the culture shock of entering the world again. Second are the lost years and the sadness and depression that come with it. Therapy can be very, very helpful, but it is going to take a very long period of time for her to recover.
COOPER: You know, I -- I think, you know, people have heard of Stockholm syndrome.
MORRISON: Yes.
COOPER: They have heard of sort of cases similar to this, but I -- I still think people have a hard time believing that -- that, you know, you can't walk out the door. I mean, she said to that deli owner that, you know, if you look at a Web site, you will -- you will see that I'm listed as missing.
It seemed...
MORRISON: Yes.
COOPER: ... like she knew she was -- she was being searched for, to some degree.
MORRISON: She knew that.
But, on the other hand, she essentially was a prisoner. And the other cases that have been studied since this first occurred in Sweden clearly shows that the person is unable to use free will, independent thinking, or to think that they can separate from their captor.
COOPER: And that doesn't diminish over the years? I mean, 10 years is -- is an eternity.
MORRISON: Ten years is an extremely long time. But, once you are in that syndrome, you can't get out of it without external help.
COOPER: Doctor, thanks so much for being with us and trying to explain what is -- is so unexplainable to so many people.
MORRISON: Yes.
COOPER: We appreciate your perspective. Thank you.
MORRISON: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up, we are going to talk live to the man who saved Tanya Kach, the deli owner who, after talking to her this week, knew something was wrong and called the police. That's ahead.
And, here in New Orleans, we cannot say enough about the great work volunteers are still doing for the recovery effort. Countless college students -- they're all around me here tonight -- are foregoing fun in the sun to spend their spring break helping folks here.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
COOPER: It is truly America at its best. We will have more of their stories coming up.
Also ahead tonight, Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, catching increasing flak -- more calls for his resignation. Could it actually happen? We will look at the pros and cons.
And this picture-perfect family destroyed -- the father, a pastor, shot to death. His wife and three daughters went missing -- tonight, a break in the case. We will have the latest on a developing story -- when 360 continues.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And welcome back.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
COOPER: We are here in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans. There may be no beach here. There's no floating bars. But, for college students from all around the country -- by our count, there are at least 28 states represented in this crowd tonight -- this is spring break 2006.
It is all about rebuilding. Roughly 1,300 students are staying at an old church behind me here. They're sleeping here. They stay for a couple of weeks, in many cases.
This is the Reverend Leonard Lucas.
What do you think of having all these students here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think this is a wonderful thing.
First of all, we want to thank you for coming out and exposing these young people for the fine work that they're doing in the city of New Orleans.
Can you imagine right here at what I call double ground zero, we have over 1,000 young people? Last week, we had 4,000. All total, this month, we will have over 10,000 young people who decided not to go to spring break in Miami or Cancun, but who decided to come into the Lower Ninth Ward to help make the lives of the people different and better.
You know, this was a community that they said to us to stay out of, but we're saying that we're fighting for our community, because this is where we live. And we're thankful to God that people, young people like this, who have come from all over America to stand with us, to make our lives much better...
COOPER: A lot of -- a lot of them are going to go back to college for spring -- at the end of spring break. It's pretty -- it's coming up pretty soon. That has got to be worrying, to see so many volunteers leaving. Are you hoping that they will come back this summer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're also hoping that they will come back. We are telling them to come back. And many of them are saying that they're going to come back. They're going to go online.
And we want many people to know, in this community, it is still the same as it was when Katrina hit.
COOPER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you go four blocks down the road, total devastation. We're here, and we're still fighting, and we're believing that it's going to be a big difference in this community.
COOPER: Well, thanks for all you're doing for this community.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
COOPER: I want to talk to two of the volunteers very quickly.
Hey, what is your name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Emily (ph).
COOPER: Emily (ph)? And?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stephanie (ph).
COOPER: And where are you guys from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New Mexico.
COOPER: Where? What school? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New Mexico State.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New Mexico State.
COOPER: OK.
What is it like being here? What -- I mean, you have seen the pictures on TV. Is it -- is it beyond what you expected?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. It's really amazing.
It's so shocking to see, like, what it really looks like here, because you see it on TV, and you're like, yes, OK. But, then, you look at it, and you see it, and, you know, you're right up close to it. There's houses on tops of cars. It is -- it is crazy.
COOPER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unbelievable.
COOPER: Do you feel like you're making a difference here? Do you see progress?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes, we really do, because we were actually cleaning out a house with a woman. And we actually finished her house and, you know, got to see everything. And...
COOPER: And it's a good -- it's a good feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is...
COOPER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... a good feeling.
COOPER: All right.
Well, everyone, all the residents of New Orleans really appreciate what you're doing and what everyone here is doing.
I just want to show you some of what they're doing. We spent some time today with some students today from K.U., from Kansas University. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): David Kiem is not a construction worker. He's a film studies major from the University of Kansas. Like thousands of other college students, however, he's spending his spring break volunteering in Mississippi and New Orleans.
(on camera): What -- what's it like coming here? I mean, were you shocked the first time... DAVID KIEM, VOLUNTEER: Oh, my gosh, yes. It's -- it's a huge shock. Like -- and we had a tornado go through Lawrence the other day. And the trees are down, but you come down here, and everything is completely demolished. The people, they don't have houses to live in. They're living in their cars or in trailers or in tents. Yes, I have never seen anything like it.
COOPER: David is here with Campus Crusade For Christ. Today, he and his fellow K.U. students are gutting Shreen Romaine's flood- destroyed house.
(on camera): Have you been able to get any personal possessions out?
SHREEN ROMAINE, HURRICANE KATRINA VICTIM: There was nothing to save. Really, my house, like I said, over two weeks of water to the ceiling -- I had nothing, nothing to save.
COOPER (voice-over): Her home is covered with mold, the oven clock frozen at the time the floodwaters rose. Still on the wall, a calendar marking the terrible date Katrina arrived.
ROMAINE: There's a little water at the bottom, but the picture of Christ is still there like yesterday. It's beautiful.
COOPER (on camera): What does that tell you?
ROMAINE: There's hope. He was here.
COOPER (voice-over): These students are camping out with thousands of other volunteers in an empty building. Each morning, before setting out to gut homes, they gather in small circles to pray for the people of New Orleans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALES AND FEMALES: Amen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's do it!
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
COOPER: The hours are long, the work grueling, but all the young volunteers we met said the experience has been life-changing.
(on camera): Thousands of young volunteers have come down here to New Orleans to help during their spring break, but the clock is ticking. Spring break is almost over. And all those volunteers are going to return home.
When you walk around a place like here, in the Lower Ninth Ward, you realize the -- the needs are so great. Residents here will ask you what happens when all those volunteers leave.
EVALYN LANE, VOLUNTEER: We need so many volunteers. Like, people have no idea. We need -- there are eight people a day who come in and say, like, I really need my house gutted. Please, can you send a team of seven volunteers to my house for, like, three days?
And we're going to run out of manpower as soon as spring break ends.
COOPER (voice-over): Evalyn Lane, from Overland, volunteers with Common Ground, a relief group in the Ninth Ward that helps residents gut their homes, and gives out free food and water to those in need.
(on camera): I think a lot of people think, though, that, you know, people your age are all just hanging down in, like, Florida, and...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALES: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We...
(CROSSTALK)
LANDON JORDAN, VOLUNTEER: If you look at MTV or BET for -- for a true representation of what individuals like us are about, you're going to be misled. I mean, there's a lot of us out here who don't have the income, but, I mean, we found it. We pulled it together. We pooled our resources.
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: And we came down here because we really -- we really, really care about this.
COOPER: So, you are kind of paying your own way down here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALES: Yes.
COOPER: Really?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We paid to come here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We paid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We drove.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We drove 15 hours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We drove...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fifteen hours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No bus. (CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was ridiculous.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are sleeping -- and, in fact, we didn't even sleep in a car the first two nights.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I have been sleeping in a car every night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The shower is outside. We're living outside.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's crazy.
COOPER (voice-over): Crazy, but satisfying. These students from the University of Illinois are also Common Ground volunteers.
STEVEN ROSADO, VOLUNTEER: I feel like I'm in another country within the United States, like, seriously. Like, I feel like this is just any country in the world you see, you know, where this type of devastation goes on. And it's heartbreaking it goes on here, and nothing is done about it. Like, groups like us are on the...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... kind of forgot about everyone here. It has been a couple of months since the hurricane. And we're looking, and it seems like nothing has been done. I feel like people kind of forgot that everything is going on, that you have to come down here and really see for yourself to know, because the news really isn't showing it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And there is plenty more work to be done.
The hope is that a lot of students will come down during summer vacation to come down and -- and do work here. They need thousands of people down here. The needs are so great.
On to other news now -- if he's going, he's not going quietly -- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld under fire, and firing back. Should he step down? There's a case to be made on both sides of the question. And we will bring them both to you.
And a local pastor shot, an Amber Alert issued for his wife and kids -- tonight, a stunning break in the case. You won't see this one coming -- ahead on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Secretary of Donald Rumsfeld under fire. Should he step down? The pros, the cons, and the facts -- all the angles next on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, some good news, for a change, out of Iraq: After nearly four months in captivity, three hostages, two Canadians and a Briton, are now at the British Embassy in Baghdad, waiting to come home. They were freed, without a shot, by American and British forces, acting on a tip. They had come to Iraq, along with American Tom Fox, as part of a Christian peace mission. Mr. Fox, you will remember, was murdered, and his body dumped on a Baghdad street.
Meantime, insurgents made it another bloody day, bombing a police headquarters and a Shia mosque -- in all, 56 people killed in those attacks.
Back home, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld answered critics who want him to resign, as only he can.
Here is CNN's Joe Johns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Another day, another testy exchange.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Do you feel at all embattled at this point in your tenure, given the fact that...
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: No. No.
MCINTYRE: Aside from the retired two-star general calling you incompetent and asking you to step down in an op-ed over the weekend, you also had a -- a column from Maureen Dowd, in which she quoted an unnamed administrative official, saying that you don't pull the same sway in meetings, and that you're treated as -- quote -- "an eccentric old uncle who's ignored."
RUMSFELD: I see.
(LAUGHTER)
RUMSFELD: You like to repeat all of that stuff, don't you?
(LAUGHTER)
RUMSFELD: On camera? Did you shoot -- did you get that?
(LAUGHTER)
RUMSFELD: Let's make sure you got it.
He loves that stuff. It's a sure way to get on camera. You will be on the evening news.
JOHNS: Sound familiar? It should. Donald Rumsfeld has been facing questions like this for as long as the Iraq war has been controversial, over weapons of mass destruction, the Abu Ghraib prison scandal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AUGUST 2004)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: It's not just the little person at the bottom who ought to pay the price of responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS: And now the brewing threat of civil war.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: I called for him being fired a year ago. I called for him being fired nine months ago. I called for him being fired three months ago.
JOHNS: And his answer, it's always the same.
RUMSFELD: Those kinds of calls have been going on for five-plus years. And the president has asked me not to get involved in politics. And that's politics.
JOHNS: In other words, he serves at the pleasure of the president, a president who has never shown any inclination to fire his top lieutenants when the going gets rough.
Over the years, Rumsfeld's judgment has often been questioned, never more so than now. Just recently, he drew fire for suggesting a pullout from Iraq would be like handing Germany back to the Nazis.
ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: You know, that is really, absolutely crazy to anyone who knows history.
JOHNS: But no one has suggested he has done anything corrupt.
There's no shortage of voices calling for Rumsfeld to think about getting out among Democrats and some Republicans, at least privately. But no one with the stature of, say, foreign relations chairman Dick Lugar has called on him to step down.
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R), INDIANA: I think I will leave that to the president.
JOHNS: And on the Rumsfeld question, should he stay or should he go, there's only one voice that really matters.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I don't believe he should resign.
JOHNS: And there's your answer. Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, we like to cover all the angles on 360. So for some other opinions now, Michael Gordon, who covers defense for "The New York Times" and is the co-author of "Cobra II: A History of the War in Iraq," and Frank Gaffney, a former assistant defense secretary during the Reagan administration and the author of "War Footing."
We spoke with Mr. Gaffney and Mr. Gordon a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Frank, you believe that Donald Rumsfeld is being unfairly criticized. How do you assess his performance?
FRANK GAFFNEY, AUTHOR "WAR FOOTING": I think that while one can always find fault with anybody, particularly in the kind of job that this secretary of defense is in, overall I think he's done an extraordinary job of trying to both fight and win a global war -- I call it the war for the free world -- while assure assuring that the military of today is equipped, trained and peopled with folks that are going to be need to deal with tomorrow's contingencies. Those are two very different jobs and very demanding. Either one of them would be very demanding, and I think he's acquitting himself very well on balance in doing both.
COOPER: Michael, what do you think?
MICHAEL GORDON, CO-AUTHOR, "COBRA II": Well, I think Secretary Rumsfeld has done some good things and has certainly brought some innovative thinking to the Defense Department, but I think there has been a downside. I think he shaped the plan for the invasion of Iraq in a way that poorly positioned the United States to consolidate its victory.
He pushed the military to reduce the number of forces, I think, to levels that were insufficient to control the country. And, you know, Secretary Rumsfeld had authority for the postwar. He was given that by President Bush. So he has to take a large measure of responsibility for the problems of the postwar administration and the bad policies that were basically pursued.
COOPER: Frank, what about that? I mean, some conservatives, including Richard Perle, David Brooks, they believe that the U.S. got the war right but the postwar wrong.
Should Rumsfeld bear that responsibility?
GAFFNEY: Well, I think he'll bear some portion of it, I'm sure, as history plays out here, but I think there's blame to go around. I thing some of it actually goes back to 1991 when we had 500,000 guys on the ground and could have waged this war with all of the troops that people think we ought to have had for this one. We don't have those troops today in part because of decisions that were taken long before Don Rumsfeld came to office.
COOPER: Michael, Donald Rumsfeld has talked a lot about making the military more flexible. Is he flexible in his management style, his leadership style?
GORDON: Well, again, I think Secretary Rumsfeld has done some good things. I'm not on a crusade by any means against Secretary Rumsfeld. But I think one of the ironies in this war is that as a man who preached the virtues of flexibility and the need to be adaptable and to change course in the face of changing circumstance, he was utterly inflexible in this war.
GAFFNEY: Yes, but let's face it, Michael, the thing that was their objective was to topple Saddam Hussein's regime and liberate the country. And that was done in three weeks' time. You can quibble about what they did with the Fedayeen along the way, and you can quibble particularly about what as a result, I believe, principally of the six months where we allowed the U.N. to buy time for the Iraqi insurgency to begin to be planned and its cooperation from across the border to begin to be arranged.
But in the end, the plan that you say that the secretary ill advisedly clung to was very successful in what it was intended to do. And I think we should take a moment to give him credit for doing it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: That was Frank Gaffney and Michael Gordon.
A preacher is murdered, shot to death. His three little girls and wife went missing. Coming up, new developments in the search for the family and the killer.
Also ahead tonight, with more than nine million young Americans overweight, former president Bill Clinton tries to get them in shape with stories of his own struggles with obesity. You'll hear from him when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: In Tennessee, a pastor was found shot to death inside his church compound, and police had no idea where his wife and three young daughters were. They've been missing since Tuesday. That all changed just a short time ago, and with this stunning revelation.
CNN's Rick Sanchez reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Wednesday nights here at the Fourth Street Church of Christ in Selmer, Tennessee, parishioners gather for midweek services with their preacher. But on this Wednesday night, the preacher was missing.
CHIEF NEAL BURKS, SELMER POLICE: We received a call that the church members of the Church of Christ here in Selmer were concerned about their pastor.
SANCHEZ: Those same church members went to his house, knocked on the door, didn't get an answer, so they used their key to get in. And when they reached the bedroom, they found their pastor, 31-year-old Matthew Winkler, murdered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was shot in the back. No signs of struggle, no signs of forced entry or anything.
SANCHEZ (on camera): Of course, as in any homicide, police immediately sought out the victim's family to break the news to them, or perhaps get some information from them. In this case, though, strangely enough, the family was nowhere to be found.
JOHN MEHR: We're trying to find the wife and the children. I think you have that information, but they're driving a 2006 Toyota van.
SANCHEZ (voice over): Police issued an Amber Alert, describing the van. It also describes the minister's wife, Mary Winkler, 32 years old, 5'3", 120 pounds, and her three daughters who are 1, 6, 8, and probably confused.
KEGAN HATLEY, NEIGHBOR: The girls were very nice and just sweet, the sweetest girls you would ever meet. Great attitude, "Yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. Yes, sir, no, sir." Just raised very well. Taught very well.
SANCHEZ: Twenty-four hours later, after a dragnet that included six states, police, FBI, Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, the mother and daughters were found in Alabama.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The news is that they have been found in Orange Beach, Alabama.
SANCHEZ: And then the police announced they now have new suspicions about the murdered preacher's wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did they find them?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A parole officer spotted the vehicle, the alerts worked, and they were spotted. And they're alive and well. And that's the good news. And our investigation will continue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, Rick, police are now calling the wife a suspect. That's got to surprise the people you've talked with tonight.
SANCHEZ: Clearly a suspect. Police said it not once, but twice. And interestingly enough, Anderson, we went inside that church and talked with some of the parishioners afterward, after the police had said that she's now a suspect and that they're going to go down to Alabama and they're going to ask her some questions. Specifically, they're going to ask her if she had anything to do with the murder of her husband. And some of the parishioners finally told us something they hadn't told us all day long today. They said, "Yes, we have some questions for her as well."
Of course the big for them is that the children are OK. And that's the one thing they were most concerned about throughout the day.
Anderson, back over to you.
COOPER: All right, Rick. Strange case. Thanks very much.
Rick Sanchez reporting.
We're going to have more on the case coming up. The wife of the pastor now a suspect in his death. And an investigator joins us with the latest.
And later on, on 360, fighting fat. Tips from a former president. Hear how Bill Clinton is helping kids battle obesity when 360 continues.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, you're looking at a photograph of a family of a pastor from Tennessee who was murdered this week. His wife and children were missing for two days. Just a short time ago they were found in Alabama, and tonight the wife is being called a suspect in her husband's death.
We are anticipating a press conference from Alabama where the wife and daughters were found. We will bring that to you live when it happens.
Jennifer Johnson is with the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. She joins us now from Nashville.
Jennifer, what can you -- what is the latest? Have you been able to get a search warrant yet for the vehicle?
JENNIFER JOHNSON, TENNESSEE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: We're in the process of getting that right now. A whole lot has changed just in the last couple of hours.
Really early evening we started to feel like we had credible information that they were in the panhandle. We had contacted Florida and Alabama to activate this Amber Alert. And before we were even able to do that, officials in Orange Beach were able to find her. From all accounts, she was very cooperative.
COOPER: What is it that has now put her in the category of being a suspect? I mean, was it something she said or is it just sort of the natural suspicion?
JOHNSON: You know, all day long we've really known that she was either a suspect or a victim. We didn't know which.
I think that given the fact that there was no one else with the family in that van, and given the fact that everyone seems to be in good condition, we just have a lot of tough questions that have to be asked. It begs the question, is she a suspect?
I think that she is. She's not under arrest. We do have agents who are en route now to question her and hopefully get to the bottom of what's happened. And hopefully we'll find something in that van as well that will give us clues in this case.
COOPER: Was there any sign of a break-in at the house?
JOHNSON: Not at all. No sign of forced entry. In fact, members of the church went there, knocked on the door, had no idea what was inside.
They did have a key. And, of course, once they got inside, they did find his body in a back bedroom.
COOPER: How was she tracked down to Alabama?
JOHNSON: You know, we can't get into a lot of the details. I will say that we've had an Amber Alert that's been going on since 3:00 a.m.
We did not get the volume of calls on that that we expected. I would say that, more or less, this is good old-fashioned law enforcement. We just were doing some things behind the scenes that ended up working out. And thank goodness we found these children in good condition.
COOPER: Yes. And, I mean, if she had her three daughters with her, how are they?
JOHNSON: They are in good physical shape from what we can tell right now. I'm sure there are a lot of questions that need to be asked about, you know, where they've been for the last couple of days. And maybe there may be some psychological things that they need to have some evaluations or whatnot, but physically they seem to be in good shape.
COOPER: And if the wife is a suspect, is she the only suspect at this point?
JOHNSON: At this point, she is. She's not under arrest. She is being held for questions.
We have agents that have been on the road probably about for an hour and a half or two hours now. So hopefully in the next six hours we'll be able to have a little bit more information.
COOPER: Jennifer Johnson, appreciate you joining us.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
COOPER: Thanks very much. It's been a busy day. Thank you.
Ahead on 360, one very lucky man. A journalist who pushed his luck too far. He was kidnapped in Iraq. Tonight he describes the five terrible days he spent as a hostage.
What is it like being a hostage? He thought they would be his last days alive.
Also, while he was president he never met a burger he didn't like. That's how the joke goes, anyway. But now a fit Bill Clinton is on a mission, and it's all about fighting fat in kids coming up on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And we're here with several hundred volunteers. Most of them from Campus Crusade for Christ.
They have foregone their spring break holidays to come down here to New Orleans and help people rebuild their homes here. They have been doing amazing work here in New Orleans these last several weeks. A lot of them are going back to school tomorrow.
The hope is that even more volunteers, thousands more, will come this summer. There is so much work that needs to be done here.
It is a problem that health experts call a potential time bomb and an epidemic. According to the CDC, 16 percent of kids and teenagers, more than nine million, are overweight. Three times as many as in 1980.
Diseases usually seen in adults like diabetes and high blood pressure are now cropping up more and more in children. Which brings us to the latest campaign by former president Bill Clinton, who teamed up today with 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta on his "Fit Nation" tour.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Bill Clinton has been known for his boundless energy. Since leaving office he's traveled around the world, using his star power for initiatives on everything from HIV-AIDS to the rebuilding after Katrina and the tsunami. But now he's focusing on his biggest domestic campaign to date, winning the war against the growing obesity epidemic in this country.
WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're looking at people in their 30s losing their limbs, becoming blind. And for all the rest of us, we have a huge vested interest in this because we already spend about 50 percent more than any other country in the world on health care as a percent of our income.
GUPTA: Speaking to an audience of Philadelphia college students at a stop on CNN's "Fit Nation" tour, he says this Clinton Foundation campaign is driven by personal experience.
At 6'2, he's been the same height since college. But weight-wise the scales have swayed since he was a kid.
CLINTON: I was probably in the last generation of Americans where people widely thought a fat baby was a healthy baby. And I lived with my grandparents until I was 4 and they just stuffed me. And so I was -- I always battled my weight. When I was 13, I was 5'8" and weighed 185 pounds.
GUPTA: But he's come a long way since then. His political gains and losses getting just slightly more attention than the ones on his waistline.
CLINTON: That's the problem. It all looks good.
GUPTA: Over the years he's put on some pounds and shed a few here and there. Cameras following him on almost every jog and every doughnut pit stop along the way. His appetite even took center stage on "Saturday Night Live" in 1992.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": See, right now, we're sending food to Somalia. But it's not getting to the people who need it because it's being intercepted by warlords.
And it's not just us. It's other countries, too. Like your McNugget is relief from Great Britain to Somalia, intercepted by warlords.
GUPTA: From southern to fried to fast, we all knew about Bill Clinton's love of food.
CLINTON: I love French Fries. No non-Pennsylvanian has ever eaten more or enjoyed more cheese steaks than I have.
GUPTA: But in September of 2004, a lifetime of bad eating finally caught up with the former president. Chest pains, shortness of breath sent him to the hospital. It turns out he had more than 90 percent blockage in several of his blood vessels. Days later, he had quadruple bypass surgery.
He's made a complete recovery since then and says he's feeling healthier than ever. No longer tipping the scales, Clinton is now 30 pounds lighter than when he was at his heaviest. And now he's trying to get the rest of the country to learn from his life.
CLINTON: I always maintained a fair level of fitness, but my weight fluctuated too much and the things that I ate contributed to my heart disease. I needed to do something about this for myself, but I needed to do something about it for the country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So, Sanjay, how exactly is he -- is he going to help stop obesity in young people? It's such a complex problem.
GUPTA: You know, Anderson, he's really done so much homework on this, everything from figuring out exactly how much trans fats are in fries and trying to limit that to figuring out how much we should be funding research to try and make healthier foods, and when you go to a fast-food restaurant, to get healthier foods at a much cheaper price.
Someone asked him, "If you had unlimited resources, how would you take care of this problem?" And he talked about actually going into the schools, he talked about challenging the fast-food industry. He talked about -- and basically using everybody, including the government, to take on this problem.
I mean, our life spans are shorter because of obesity. And he wants -- he wants to fix that.
COOPER: Where you are headed next on the "Fit Nation" tour?
GUPTA: We're going to go to Iowa next and then North Carolina, Berkeley, then Austin, Texas, sort of crisscrossing the entire country, Anderson. And, you know, it's been a lot of fun. College students really great, as you can tell there as well.
I think my brother actually is somewhere behind you as well. A lot of people down there with Katrina. So the college student energy here was great as well today.
COOPER: So your college-aged brother is actually down here volunteering?
GUPTA: Yes, he is. He's with all everybody else and getting a lot out of it, yes.
COOPER: That's cool. I'll look for him in the crowd.
Sanjay, thanks very much.
GUPTA: Thank you.
COOPER: We have quite an enthusiastic crowd here of volunteers. I mean, these guys, these men and women, young men and women, are doing such incredible work here over these last -- last couple of weeks.
Ahead on 360, with hurricane season just 70 days away -- 70 days away, imagine that -- will the levees be ready here in New Orleans? Tonight we're keeping them honest.
But first, Erica Hill from HEADLINE NEWS joins us with some of the business stories we're following.
(BUSINESS REPORT)
COOPER: We want to thank our international viewers for watching as well.
Still to come on the program tonight, racing to build a wall against the next big flood here in New Orleans. Will it get done in time? Will it be enough?
Tonight we are keeping them honest.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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