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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
President Bush Pushes Gay Marriage Ban; National Guard Troops Head to Mexican Border; Interview With Delaware Senator Joe Biden
Aired June 05, 2006 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And good evening again, everyone.
The headline is both striking and horrible -- a new development in the shooting of an Iraqi man, evidence that we are just learning about now that could expose several Marines as cold-blooded murderers. We will have that story for you tonight, and these:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A presidential push to ban same-sex marriage by amending the Constitution, why now? Why this? Will voters buy it?
Defending marriage.
JOAN VANREECE, RESIDENT OF TENNESSEE: I know that my God loves me.
ANNOUNCER: They met in Bible study and believe in the sanctity of their union.
And police raid a polygamist compound in search of DNA to seal the fate of a fugitive some call evil incarnate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, tonight, sitting in for Anderson, John Roberts.
COOPER: And we begin tonight with breaking news from the investigation into one of several alleged atrocities in Iraq. In this one, members of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment are accused of murdering a man in the town of Hamandiyah.
Now CNN is learning that some of the Marines suspected have made statements that cast the entire episode in the darkest light possible.
CNN senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre broke the story and joins us now live.
What's the latest, Jamie?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, a source close to the investigation tells CNN that Navy investigators have evidence that some Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment may have committed premeditated murder last April, when they shot and killed an Iraqi man in al-Hamandiyah.
A military officer who has direct knowledge of the preliminary findings of the investigation tells CNN that some of the Marines now in pretrial confinement have admitted that the circumstances of the man's death were staged, and their statements are forming the part of the evidence that suggests the Marines deliberately murdered the victim.
Knight Ridder News Service reported just two days ago that the family of the victim showed one of its reporter a handwritten note from a U.S. Marine sergeant which said -- quote -- "The man was seen digging on the side of the road from our ambush site. I made the call and engaged. He was pronounced dead at the scene, with only a shovel and an AK-47."
But, in fact, investigators have concluded, the unarmed man was dragged from his house and shot by U.S. Marines, who then placed the shovel and the AK-47 next to his body to make it appear that he was an insurgent. That's according to the official who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity.
Now, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman are being held at the brig at Camp Pendleton. Four of them are confined to base. The attorney for one of the accused denounced what he calls cowardly and anonymous leakers at the Pentagon. He insisted there have been several cases in which military investigators have made charges that were without merit.
And while murder charges are expected soon in this case, John, no one has been charged yet.
ROBERTS: Jamie, was it -- was it the man's family that started telling the story that so contradicted what the Marines had said?
MCINTYRE: Well, the way this one came up was, villager elders had a regular meeting with the U.S. military at the beginning of every month, in which they address a number of grievances. And they brought evidence to the military at that meeting, which was the 1st of May, that -- that they thought this man had been murdered, and they began to look into it immediately.
They -- they sent the Marines home. And, as you heard, some of them are in the brig already. And, so, this investigation has gone very quickly. They heeded the complaints. They found the evidence right away. And they have moved swiftly, and we expect charges to be filed fairly soon.
ROBERTS: All right. Jamie McIntyre, live at the Pentagon tonight -- Jamie, thanks for that update. Appreciate it.
On now to the notion that modern marriage has lost its meaning. A famous public figure said that back in 1888. Today, President Bush said more or less the same. He called marriage, same-sex marriage, a national question requiring a national solution.
So, all the angles tonight on what the president wants, a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman, but questions, too, about why he wants it now. And this being an election year, what do voters think?
As you will see, who marries whom and who should decide isn't a simple left-right, red-state/blue state issue. And we will travel to red state Tennessee to meet people for and against same-sex marriage for whom the matter couldn't be more personal. They differ, though, on whether those deeply held personal beliefs should be up for public debate, let alone be a part of the Constitution.
All the angles tonight, starting with CNN's Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It sounded like a campaign flashback.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our policy should aim to strengthen families, not undermine them. And changing the definition of marriage would undermine the family structure.
BASH: After virtually ignoring the issue since he was reelected, the president reaffirmed his support for a constitutional ban on gay marriage, just as Senate Republicans opened debate. Why now?
SEN. WAYNE ALLARD (R), COLORADO: Make no mistake about it. Traditional marriage is under assault.
BASH: Supporters of a ban point to states like Nebraska, where, in 2004, an overwhelming 70 percent of voters passed an amendment banning gay marriage. But a federal judge overturned it last year.
BUSH: An amendment to the Constitution is necessary because activist courts have left our nation with no other choice.
BASH: Democrats accuse Republicans of putting gay marriage on the agenda to divert attention from issues voters care most about, like Iraq and high gas prices.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: It is this administration's way of avoiding the tough, the real problems American citizens are confronted with each and every day.
BASH: In fact, the Senate is well short of the two-thirds majority needed to change the Constitution. Yet, supporters of a ban do expect to get more than 50 votes for the first time. They insist, momentum is key.
MATT DANIELS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, ALLIANCE FOR MARRIAGE: Right now, we have a majority in the Senate. We believe that, the next time, we are going to have even more votes.
BASH: The reality is, Republican leaders are not just pushing a long-term policy goal, but a short-term political one, trying to appeal to disillusioned conservative voters five months before an election. PETER SPRIGG, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: We don't feel that pro- family issues, and particular -- particularly this issue of the marriage amendment, has been given sufficient attention or sufficient priority.
BASH: Republicans campaigned hard on this issue in 2004. But this is 2006. And some conservative activists feel taken for granted by a Republican president and Congress who talk up their issues around elections, but turn their backs once they win.
RICHARD VIGUERIE, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: We have been betrayed, that we feel like we have been dealt a very, very serious blow by the ruling establishment. And I don't think they are going to really appreciate the depth of the -- the voters' anger until the morning after election.
BASH (on camera): GOP leaders are now in overdrive, trying to prove they are in touch with rank-and-file Republicans they need this election year. They plan to follow the gay marriage debate with other conservative proposals, one to make the estate tax cut permanent, another to ban flag burning.
Dana Bash, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: Well, you don't have to be a cynic to wonder what might happen if, instead of simply conducting a poll on same-sex marriage, you gave everyone, priests, politicians, and voters alike, a shot of truth serum along with the questions.
On such a highly charged subject, at such a highly political moment, would their answers be any different? Something we will have to take up with Dr. Sanjay Gupta some time.
In the meantime, though the numbers now, without chemical assistance, from CNN's Bill Schneider.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist says the issue is urgent.
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: As we speak, there's nine states whose laws protecting the traditional definition of marriage are being challenged in court.
SCHNEIDER: Does the public share that sense of urgency? A majority of Americans polled say same-sex marriages should not be recognized as valid.
But does the public favor a constitutional amendment to ban them? They are split. The public is reluctant to tamper with the Constitution. Congressional Republicans want to save their majority by rallying social conservatives who feel seduced and abandoned. The Family Research Council has been lobbying for the amendment. TONY PERKINS, PRESIDENT, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: This was an issue that was important enough to campaign on in the 2004 election cycle by Republicans in general, but it's not been important enough to act upon yet.
SCHNEIDER: A constitutional amendment is unlikely to pass.
So Republicans can show faith with their base without threatening those who disagree. But social conservatives could end up feeling disillusioned. Why vote for a Republican Congress, if it can't deliver? Why not just stay home?
The amendment's supporters are running another risk. Ask Americans what issues they care about right now, and Iraq, the economy, immigration, and gas prices top the list. That's what they want Congress to debate. Debating the definition of marriage, critics say, is a diversion.
SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: It seems to me it's designed to avoid debating energy policy, designed to avoid pointing out that we have not met the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission on homeland security.
SCHNEIDER (on camera): This debate is unlikely to produce a result, except to reinforce the image of a Congress that's out of touch with the people's real concerns.
Bill Schneider, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: For every doubt about the president's sincerity, even among supporters, and for all the talk that this is more about votes than values, some take the question of same-sex marriage both seriously and personally. For them, this debate, whether driven by politics or not, touches deeply-held beliefs about morality and equality and love.
Joe Glover is president of the Family Policy Network. Patrick Guerriero leads the Log Cabin Republicans, gay and lesbian members of the GOP.
Good to see both of you tonight. Thanks for being with us.
PATRICK GUERRIERO, DIRECTOR, LOG CABIN REPUBLICANS: Good to be with you, John.
JOE GLOVER, PRESIDENT, FAMILY POLICY NETWORK: Thank you for having us.
ROBERTS: Joe Glover, let's start with you.
You were at the White House today while the president was giving that speech. What were you thinking when you heard the president express support for a same-sex-marriage amendment?
GLOVER: I was thinking, it was a fabulous speech. These are things that we needed to hear, though over the last couple of months.
We're very encouraged by what the president had to say, both in his radio address on Saturday and again today at the White House. But we sure wish he had given it the same weight that he had given his drive to get the prescription drug entitlement that most conservatives didn't want. But we're glad it finally came.
ROBERTS: Right.
But it doesn't seem to have any hope of -- of becoming law. There doesn't seem to be any hope of amending the Constitution for those who would like to. So, is this purely political?
GLOVER: Well, I wouldn't say that it has no hope of becoming the Constitution. It just doesn't have that this week.
But the fact of the matter is, we're going to have more votes now than we had back in 2004. And we're moving in the right direction. And, quite frankly, a vote is important this week, because it will let voters in several states know that their senator is not with them on the issue of marriage, and they can make the choice, if they would like to, to remove those senators and replace them with ones who do.
ROBERTS: Patrick Guerriero, what was your reaction to the president's speech today?
GUERRIERO: I'm obviously disappointed.
The reality is, you know, while I have disagreements with social conservatives, they're pretty smart people. And this was really a dog-and-pony show today. The president hasn't talked about this issue over the last year-and-a-half.
The reality is that when most Americans woke up this morning, they were concerned about the war on terrorism. They were concerned about Iraq. They were concerned about gas prices. They were concerned about interest rates and the economy. And when they look to Washington and see their leadership, whether it be Republicans or Democrats, all the way up to the president, talking about issues that no one believes really are going to change, they question the focus of leadership in America.
And that's not good for the president. He, I believe, has made a misjudgment here. And he is now playing politics with the American Constitution, which serves to divide the American family, rather than unite us. And, in America today, we need a nation that's united to take on the serious issues we face.
ROBERTS: Patrick, you wrote an open letter to President Bush.
Let me just quote from that. You said, "Your decision to use the grounds of the White House, America's house, to advance discrimination is an insult to millions of fair-minded Americans from all walks of life."
Is this, indeed, discrimination? Is the right for same-sex couples to marry enshrined in the Constitution?
GUERRIERO: Yes, a couple things.
One, the amendment as it's written has a second sentence which would also deny civil unions and jeopardize domestic partnerships. And, this morning, among the millions of Americans that woke up were also millions of gay and lesbian Americans, who pay taxes, who love their families, who are patriotic, and good law-abiding citizen.
And it's insulting to them to look to Washington and see the president use the bully pulpit of the presidency to consider an amendment that would deny states the right to debate this issue over the next several decades.
ROBERTS: Joe Glover, let's come back to you.
How do you feel about how the White House has handled this entire issue? You and I spoke over the phone last week, and, at that point, you seemed to be pretty hot about the whole thing.
GLOVER: Well, first, I want to take issue with a couple of points and just say that, look, there is concern about this issue. And every state that has taken this issue up at the ballot box, it has passed overwhelmingly.
In fact, the president pointed out today, it's passed by over 70 percent on average in 19 states so far. Another six to nine states are going to take it up this year. It's not only important to the American people, but it's important to young children, who -- who need both the love of a mother and a father.
And it's also important to God. He said, therefore, shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife. And it wasn't a multiple-choice question.
ROBERTS: All right.
GLOVER: And that's the benefit for every member of society. As far as the president goes...
(CROSSTALK)
ROBERTS: Yes. OK. Go ahead.
GLOVER: As far as the president goes, we were very encouraged today by the speech that we heard. We were encouraged by the -- the speech we heard over the weekend over the radio address.
ROBERTS: Right.
GLOVER: But we are frustrated that we haven't heard this over the last couple of months. During the -- the prescription drug...
ROBERTS: Or the last 18 months, for that matter.
GLOVER: Well, for that matter, you're exactly right. And -- and I think that, if this has any impact -- impact on the midterm elections and on the race for the nomination in the GOP in 2008, it will have this impact. And that is, on a case-by-case basis, social conservatives are going to look and see whether or not candidates are actually doing something, taking action, whether they're currently in office or whether they plan to be, to protect marriage, or are they just talking about it?
GUERRIERO: Joe, you would have been better served today if you had encouraged the president to offer a constitutional amendment to ban divorce or ban infidelity or children out of wedlock.
GLOVER: Patrick, there's no question...
(CROSSTALK)
GUERRIERO: And, so, I think scapegoating gay and lesbian Americans, who want to live in taxpaying...
GLOVER: Nobody is scapegoating...
GUERRIERO: ... law-abiding, lifelong relationships, to me, is a distraction for the real -- from the real issues that impact marriage and family life in America.
(CROSSTALK)
GLOVER: Patrick, listen. Listen.
GUERRIERO: And the God that you claim to worship, to me, is an all-loving, compassionate God, that doesn't pass judgment on other members of the American family.
ROBERTS: Gentlemen...
GLOVER: God is an all-loving, compassionate God. He created you and me alike, and he created us in a way that we would know the love of a father and a mother, his love, and we would know the love of a person of the opposite sex. That's his plan for the home.
ROBERTS: Gentlemen, we are going to have to leave it there. Thanks very much for joining us tonight. Obviously, there's a lot more to say about this. Joe Glover from the Family Policy Network and Patrick Guerriero from the Log Cabin Republicans, appreciate you joining us tonight. Thanks.
GUERRIERO: Good -- good to be with you.
(CROSSTALK)
ROBERTS: As Joe Glover mentioned, 19 states already have a constitutional amendment outlawing same-sex marriage. And more may follow. Here's the "Raw Data" for you.
This year, seven states have the issue on the ballot. In 2004, 13 states approved amendments defining marriage as a union between a man and woman. They were Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Utah. Kansas and Texas followed in 2005, while Alaska, Hawaii, Nebraska, and Nevada put bans in place between 1998 and 2002.
As we said, this year, the fight is taking center stage in seven states -- next, the battle over same-sex marriages from the Bible Belt, where it's forming some unlikely alliances.
Also tonight, from a single union to multiple -- a return trip to a polygamist town and the latest on its fugitive leader, Warren Jeffs.
And later, brazen and brutal, the recent wave of kidnappings in Iraq that have left scores missing and dead -- all that and more when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Well, one of the driving forces behind the proposed amendment banning same-sex marriages is Senator Bill Frist. He's championing the cause on Capitol Hill and in his home state of Tennessee, where the issue will be put to voters on the state level later this year.
CNN's John King reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Joan and Nancy met in Tennessee 18 years ago and have been partners ever since, their politics, admittedly, a bit out of step in a place that is unmistakably Bible Belt.
JOAN VANREECE, RESIDENT OF TENNESSEE: She's definitely more on the front lines than I am. I'm the silent partner behind.
(LAUGHTER)
NANCY VANREECE, RESIDENT OF TENNESSEE: Silent partner.
VANREECE: Yes, right. You know, it's a risk.
KING: The risk is taking a leading role in the real front lines of the gay marriage debate, campaigning against a proposed constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriage.
Tennessee is one of seven states with proposed amendments this year, along with Alabama, Idaho, South Carolina, South Dakota, Virginia,, and Wisconsin. Nineteen states already ban gay marriage, a movement Christian conservatives like Tennessee State Senator David Fowler says will continue to expand, if there are not enough votes in Congress to advance a nationwide ban.
DAVID FOWLER (R), TENNESSEE STATE SENATOR: Washington does need to address it, because, if one state allows it and another state doesn't, and then you get married in one state and move to another, it just creates problems.
KING: Fowler disputes critics who say Republicans used gay- marriage initiatives to drive up conservative turnout in the 2004 presidential cycle and are hoping for a repeat this November.
FOWLER: Many of us, people like me, we, deep down, do believe that marriage is not one of those things we can define any way we want to. And it has nothing to do with politics. If it makes for good politics, fine. But to me, it's not about politics.
KING: White evangelicals are the major force behind the anti- gay-marriage movement here in Tennessee and across the country. Many African-American pastors, like Henry Coles of Nashville's Word of Faith Christian Center, also oppose gay marriage, and are striking odd alliances this election year.
PASTOR HENRY COLES, WORD OF FAITH CHRISTIAN CENTER: It's a fundamental, doctrinal precept of my -- my faith in Christ Jesus. And -- and for me, as a representative of -- of Christ, unions begin with a man and a woman.
J. VANREECE: My name is Joan Vanreece.
N. VANREECE: And my name is Nancy Vanreece.
KING: This testimonial in favor of same-sex marriage was delivered at a gay pride festival. But Joan and Nancy met in Bible study, and bristle when God is brought into the political debate.
J. VANREECE: I know that my God loves me. And I don't understand why that has to be -- I'm sorry. I just don't understand...
(LAUGHTER)
N. VANREECE: Well...
J. VANREECE: I don't understand that whole purpose of it, you know?
N. VANREECE: There's so many faiths.
J. VANREECE: Yes.
N. VANREECE: And he's speaking of his faith.
J. VANREECE: For him.
N. VANREECE: Should we actually vote to include discrimination into our Constitution, ever? And that's a legal question. It's not a faith-based question.
KING: Joan and Nancy promise not to be outworked between now and November. But as they make their views abundantly clear, they concede, around here, they are likely outnumbered.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: And, John, as that Tennessee debate goes forward, you mentioned Senator Frist. This is his home state. Organizers say they do expect his help later on, as the campaign gets to frui -- to fruition -- excuse me -- but, so far, they say he's been focusing his attention here in Washington, not actively involved at all back home just yet.
ROBERTS: Hey, John, Senator Fowler played it down, but, as far as a motivator goes, when an issue like this, an initiative like this is on the ballot, does it get conservatives out to the polls?
KING: As if Republicans don't have enough to argue and debate about, they're debating this question as well.
Our Dana Bash spoke to Matthew Dowd, who was the president's chief pollster in the last campaign, today. And he called it simply an urban myth, this view that many Democrats hold that the president won Ohio only because there was a same-sex ban on the ballot then.
Some Republicans say, yes, they do think it brings more conservatives out. Other say, there's simply no evidence, if you look at all the states that have passed these amendments.
But here's one thing to watch heading into November. The most interesting thing about this dynamic, according to many looking at the midterm election dynamic, is, it tests most likely among senior voters. Older voters do not favor -- excuse me -- older voters do favor a ban on same-sex marriage. They tend to vote more in midterm elections. And Catholic voters also are with conservatives on this question. They tend to be the swing voters.
ROBERTS: Well, we will have to look at the exit polls and see how it turns out.
KING: Yes, we will.
ROBERTS: A long time from now.
John, thanks very much.
KING: Thank you.
ROBERTS: Tennessee may be divided over same-sex marriage, but the leading Democrats in Washington are not. They say the president is pandering to GOP voters. We will hear from one leading Democrat, Senator Joe Biden, coming up next.
Also tonight, a wave of National Guard troops is on the way to the Mexican border. We will tell you about it ahead on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: A constitutional amendment would not take this issue away from the states, as some have argued. It would take the issue away from the courts and put it directly before the American people.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: President Bush today making his case for banning same- sex marriage -- the president says the institution of marriage is under attack.
Now he is the one under attack by Democrats, who call his proposal a political ploy and one that won't work. Some of the strongest criticism is coming from Senator Joe Biden, the Delaware Democrat and presumed presidential candidate.
I spoke with Biden a little bit earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: Senator Biden, we -- we heard an awful lot about same- sex marriage during -- during the 2004 election campaign. Then we heard nothing about it. And now -- now it's back again.
What's the White House up to here, and what are Republicans in Congress up to?
BIDEN: It's an election year.
Look, I mean, we have already passed a law saying that -- and the Defense of Marriage Act, defining marriage between a man and a woman. No one has challenged it. It's a federal law. And now we're talking about a constitutional amendment. Next week, we are going to do flag burning.
ROBERTS: No question in your mind this is pure politics?
BIDEN: Absolutely none in my mind.
And, by the way, if you have got any Republican in front of you, look him eye to eye, even though they may support the -- support the amendment, generally support it, ask him, do you think it's political it comes up now?
ROBERTS: This isn't just Republicans, though because Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska also supports this. So, there -- here is a -- here is a Democrat who has got some political concerns, and, therefore, is supporting this amendment.
(CROSSTALK)
BIDEN: Well, no, let's make a distinction here.
The distinction is not whether you support it. You asked me initially bringing it up now, without the votes being there. I don't know that Ben Nelson's calling bringing it up now. The reason to bring it up now, when they -- our foreign policy is going to Hades in a handbasket, what's the reason to do that? I can't imagine the American people wouldn't rather us be debating Iraq, and what we do about Iraq, debating Iran, debating whether or not we're going to have an energy policy, debating the things that are on the kettle now. And these aren't things that are sort of off on the horizon. They're right in front of us, and we're virtually doing nothing of consequence in the United States Senate.
ROBERTS: So -- s, are you more against the amendment itself or the timing of it?
BIDEN: I'm against the timing of it.
Look, marriage is between a man and a woman. Tell me why that has to be put in the Constitution now? We already have a federal law that has not been challenged. No one's declared it unconstitutional. It's the law of the land, saying marriage is between a man and a woman.
ROBERTS: Correct me if I'm wrong. It has been challenged. It's just, the Supreme Court has never...
BIDEN: Yes, well, I mean, people have challenged it, but it has never been litigated in the courts and decided by the court, meaning it's still the law of the land.
And, look, you know, I think the one thing I agree with Vice President Cheney on, this is a state matter. John McCain says, it's a state matter. If -- it's pretty clear to me that -- that we are not in jeopardy of being overcome by some deluge of, all of a sudden, marriage in America is -- is undermined.
I mean, but what is being undermined, our troops are being undermined. They're being killed. There's no policy. Our -- our security is being undermined. We have no energy policy. Why don't we talk about those things?
ROBERTS: This -- this debate has got some interesting bedfellows. You know, you have conservatives who are critical...
BIDEN: Yes.
ROBERTS: ... of the White House.
You also have Mary Cheney and Russ Feingold both saying that, to pass this amendment, would be to write discrimination into the Constitution. Is this really writing discrimination into the Constitution?
BIDEN: Look, I don't -- I don't know whether it would be writing discrimination into the Constitution.
But it doesn't warrant the Constitution. There's a lot of things that don't need to be in the Constitution. And what we have always -- marriage has always been something we left to the states. We don't pass a federal law saying what age you can be married or not married. States have different ages. We don't pass a federal law telling you the conditions on which you can get married, who can marry you, how you can get married.
ROBERTS: Obviously, Senator, we are going to be talking about this for some time...
BIDEN: We will.
ROBERTS: ... because this is not about to become law.
BIDEN: I know.
ROBERTS: So, it's just going to be...
BIDEN: I know. And think about it.
ROBERTS: ... a matter for political debate.
BIDEN: Think about it. Think. You cover the Congress. Think about how many -- how few days we're going to be in session this year. And name me a year we have more problems facing the country.
(LAUGHTER)
BIDEN: This is -- this is -- it's kind of silly.
ROBERTS: Senator Biden, thanks for your time. Appreciate it.
BIDEN: Thank you. Appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: It's worth noting that many people might cite polygamy as a threat to traditional marriage.
And, tonight, polygamist cult leader Warren Jeffs remains at large. But are investigators closing in on him? We will have the latest for you.
Plus, Iraqi police uniforms easily obtained by criminals and insurgents just that fast, and they're dressed to kill -- that story and more when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Fugitive polygamist and cult leader Warren Jeffs, he remains on the FBI's most wanted list tonight. A $100,000 bounty on his head. Jeffs is wanted for alleged sex crimes involving minors. Tonight his whereabouts are still unknown, but authorities are busy strengthening their case against him. CNN's Randi Kaye reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: During this raid of the FLDS compound in Colorado City, Arizona, investigators weren't expecting to find fugitive polygamist Warren Jeffs, but evidence against him. Evidence that could prove Jeffs forced young girls to marry men sometimes twice their age and give them children.
CANDI SHAPLEY, FORCED TO MARRY AT AGE 16: I had never even seen him in my life. He just held me down and took my clothes off and raped me.
KAYE: Candi Shapley says she was just 16 when Warren Jeffs forced her to marry 28-year-old Randy Barlow who already had a wife and four children. Barlow is one of four men whose homes were raided last month by Mohave County sheriff's deputies. Barlow was charged with rape last year. Seven other men were charged with sexual conduct with a minor. In Arizona, it is against the law to engage in sexual conduct with anyone under 18. None of them has entered a plea.
RUTH STUBBS, FORCED TO MARRY AT AGE 16: I felt like a slave. I didn't feel like I had any control over my life.
KAYE: That was former polygamist bride Ruth Stubbs back in 2002. Right after she fled Warren Jeffs' FLDS church. At 16, Stubbs married 32-year-old polygamist Rodney Holm whose house was also raided. Investigators are looking for birth certificates, even saliva, from men, women and children to prove paternity.
MIKE WATKISS, KTVK REPORTER: They're told that from the moment of their births, you will do what the prophet says when he says to do it. And that means when he says this 14, 15-year-old girl is going to go marry some 48-year-old man and become his fifth, sixth, eighth wife, they do it.
KAYE: Arizona television reporter Michael Watkiss has covered the FLDS sect for more than a decade. He's interviewed both Candi Shapley and Ruth Stubbs and says both of their marriages were performed by Warren Jeffs. All part of what Watkiss calls Jeffs' economy of women.
WATKISS: Warren Jeffs is the one man in this culture who can put marriages together. That's the source of his power. He's the only guy that can arrange these marriages.
KAYE: Which explains why investigators are so intent on finding evidence of sexual conduct with a minor. Jeffs is already charged with sexual assault and conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. So if and possibly when Jeffs is caught, prosecutors want the deck stacked against him.
WATKISS: They need to prove that these men took these underage girls and that Warren Jeffs facilitated or arranged these marriages. This is all part of a larger law enforcement puzzle.
KAYE: If Jeffs performed the marriages and DNA evidence proves girls were underage when they conceived, Jeffs will have even bigger problems than he has simply living an illegal polygamist lifestyle. Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: We want to spend a little bit more time right now with Michael Watkiss of KTVK in Phoenix who Randi introduced us to. He joins us now live. Michael thanks for being with us. Appreciate it.
MICHAEL WATKISS, KTVK REPORTER: Thanks, John.
ROBERTS: How significant are these raids on these individuals and the evidence that authorities collected in Colorado City?
WATKISS: Well, we have the presumption of innocence. And as we vilified Warren Jeffs, and I think rightfully so, but the bottom line is, ultimately they're going to catch him and try to take him into a court of law, and they need to prove these charges. And he's not charged with any of these actually having sexual conduct with these young girls, although he has done that himself, it's basically as an extension of arranging these marriages with the men who are charged. So they need to establish these cases and then prove that Warren Jeffs is the guy who put it all together. And so ultimately, if he has his day in court, this is very important.
ROBERTS: But the fact that these people were raided at all is that perhaps an indication of a new get-tough policy by the authorities?
WATKISS: Well, it's a get-tough policy that's been getting tougher during the last 18 months. For years we've been crying for some action. Now they're starting to take it, some prosecutors, some cops are taking this seriously, politicians in Utah and Arizona finally are doing something, and to their credit, finally they are. But the bottom line is they need to build these cases, and these are critical components of charging Warren Jeffs. They need to establish that these men are guilty of taking these underage girls and having sex with them when they were children and then prove that Warren Jeffs is the guy who put it all together. The great Wizard of Oz who puts all these marriages together.
ROBERTS: Want to take a moment Michael, to look at the mindset of the women who are involved in these polygamist sects. I want to play part of an interview that you did with Candi Shapley who says that she left Colorado City after she was raped by her polygamist husband.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAPLEY: I wasn't so mad at Warren Jeffs. I mean yeah he, of course, he married me underage but, you know, he didn't tell Randolph to go home and rape me.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: So Michael, were you surprised to hear that Candi Shapley doesn't really hold Warren Jeffs responsible for what happened to her?
WATKISS: Not a bit. Candi Shapley is a wonderful young woman and of great courage. The bottom line is, most of her family are still devoted followers of Warren Jeffs. I understand she's getting a lot of pressure from her mother and father and brothers and sisters who are still in the culture. So this has been the very difficult task of prosecutors for many years. The young women get out of there sometimes, but rarely do they want to press charges. And Candi is in that category. There are other young women who are going to step forward and go onto the witness stand against Warren Jeffs.
ROBERTS: Is it going to be difficult for them? Because they were taught all their lives that Warren Jeffs was the prophet, they were told that marriage was the key to heaven. They were not very well educated. It seems to me that was part of -- or as I understand it, that's part of the control that they have over them. So how difficult will it be for them to get on the stand?
WATKISS: Well, for the outside world, you've hit it right on the head, John. The bottom line is it's going to be very difficult. These people come from a culture -- if I was to drop you into New Delhi or Colorado City, the culture shock would be about the same. This is a world unknown to most people here in America. These little girls really have no education. They are told that this is the voice of God. All of these people think that. And so overcoming that sort of mojo in their heads is going to be very difficult and has been throughout the last several decades as people slowly get out.
ROBERTS: Michael Watkiss, good work you've been doing. We'll continue to check back in with you. Appreciate it.
WATKISS: Thanks, John.
ROBERTS: Thanks.
As the man they call their prophet is on the run from the FBI, the followers of Warren Jeffs say they have not seen him for years, but they are still loyal to his teachings. Coming up, a rare look inside his fundamentalist compound.
And a close call for our neighbors to the north. Several people arrested, and investigators say a huge terrorist strike against Canada was averted. We'll have details ahead on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Most of those families --
I'm going to have to ask you guys to not video by our store. Please don't point that at me.
TUCHMAN: Okay. Many households -- you can see, there are some angry people here who don't want the camera to be taking --
No cameras allowed here.
TUCHMAN: Say that again?
Sorry, this is private property, no cameras --
(END OF VIDEO CLIP) ROBERTS: That's Gary Tuchman on one of his more interesting visits to Colorado City, Arizona. As you heard just before we went to the break, Arizona police have raided the homes of four men from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Colorado City. Most of them were indicted on charges of sexual conduct with a minor. Their leader, Warren Jeffs, is also in trouble with the law for the same crimes. He's on the FBI's most wanted list. Yet his followers remain faithful to him CNN's Gary Tuchman visited Colorado City to talk with some of them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In Colorado City, Arizona, the American flag flies but most of the citizens pledge allegiance to Warren Jeffs. What do you think of the man?
I think he's awesome.
TUCHMAN: The FBI fugitive has instructed his followers not to talk to the news media. Almost always that demand is strictly obeyed. Can I ask you a quick question? I'm Gary Tuchman with CNN. I just wanted to check with you. Do you have any idea where Warren Jeffs is? Any idea at all? Just wanted to ask you if you have any idea where Warren Jeffs is. The police department where the chief is also a member of Jeffs' FLDS church doesn't return repeated phone calls. Anybody there? And the cops have no interest in speaking when we stop by. They don't even speak to a county attorney special agent who's been here for 18 months investigating Jeffs and his supporters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is bizarre, but then again we are, here in Colorado City, that every one of the police officers are FLDS members. You know, they've sworn to follow Warren Jeffs.
TUCHMAN: We travel a lot in this job. Rarely do we go anywhere where we feel so unwelcome as this place. For the most part, when we come up to people, they scatter. Can we ask you a quick question? But in this town of about 9,000 where Warren Jeffs lived in this house before he went underground, some coaxing did result in some comments. Do you know where Warren Jeffs is?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir. Ain't nobody seen him for two or three years that I know of.
TUCHMAN: What do you think of him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's a great prophet. And you're damn fools for bothering him. Because your ass is going to get hung one of these days when you look up from hell and look at him in the face.
TUCHMAN: Jeffs' very passionate followers also believe his father, Rulon, was a prophet. Rulon died in 2002 and is buried here in town. Warren Jeffs has been the FLDS leader since then. Do you have any idea where Warren Jeffs is right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don't.
TUCHMAN: When was the last time you saw him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About three years ago.
TUCHMAN: Do you think he's been back to Colorado City at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He could have. That's none of my business, though.
TUCHMAN: How come? You're a follower of him, and you think he's a prophet, and you think he's the greatest man on earth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does what he needs to do and I don't have to know about it.
TUCHMAN: But how are you able to continue following his way if you don't see him or hear of him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The words that he's already given us.
TUCHMAN: Investigator Engel says his presence is not welcomed either, and he's occasionally harassed.
GARY ENGELS, MOHAVE COUNTY, ARIZONA INVESTIGATOR: Sometimes if they're stopped at a stop sign or something, they'll try to take off real fast, throwing gravel on my vehicle or the diesels, you know, they'll accelerate real fast, blowing a lot of black smoke out.
TUCHMAN: Well, lo and behold we got a similar experience. The FBI may have Warren Jeffs on its ten most wanted list, but what most people here want --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys are all damn idiots.
TUCHMAN: Is for us to get out of town. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Colorado City Arizona.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: We'll have more on polygamist life coming right up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
You married your cousin and your nephew?
Yeah. It's gotten to the point where you're related to almost everybody more than once.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: We talk with a woman who escaped from one of the most infamous Utah families and hear the shocking details of what they consider normal.
And he's fulfilling the wildest hopes that parents all over the country have for their kids. He's a star student at one of the best Ivy League universities. The problem is, he's an illegal immigrant. His story ahead on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: A recently filed civil suit may trigger new revelations about some of the wealthiest polygamists in America. The infamous Kingston family of Utah. Last week Kristin Nelson, the daughter of John Daniel Kingston accused her uncle and her older sister of childhood sexual abuse. She's seeking $12 million in damages. The woman you're about to meet knows firsthand about life in the Kingston family. Once again, here's CNN's Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Want to give buddy a treat?
KAYE: Lu Ann Cooper has four children and a husband, Dustin. But before Lu Ann became a Cooper, she was a Kingston, one of the most secretive and incestuous polygamist families in the country. At age 15, her father arranged for her to marry this man who was then 23 and already had three wives.
LU ANN COOPER, FORMER KINGSTON CLAN MEMBER: I married Jeremy Kingston. He is my first cousin/nephew because his dad is my half brother. We have the same dads. And his mom is my aunt.
KAYE: You married your cousin and your nephew?
COOPER: Yeah. It's gotten to the point where you're related to almost everybody more than once.
KAYE: What was it like to get into bed with your nephew?
COOPER: It was awkward. It was awkward. I didn't know him.
KAYE: She had two children with him. Then in 2000 at the age of 20, Lu Ann fled what was known as the order, taking her daughters with her.
COOPER: When I left, my aunt said to me, "What do you think you're doing? You're taking purebreds out of the order."
KAYE: The desire to remain purebreds is the Kingston rationale for incest.
COOPER: My dad decided that the Kingston blood linked all the way up to Jesus Christ, and so he wanted to keep that blood pure.
KAYE: Lu Ann's father, John Ortell Kingston, was one of the order's first leaders. Her uncle Eldon Kingston founded the sect in 1935, saying he was prophesied to right the Mormon Church when it strayed. Her half brother, Paul Kingston, leads the 1500-member sect today. The followers believe they are a superior race, and that idea may even have come from breeding cows.
JOHN R. LLEWELLYN, AUTHOR, POLYGAMY'S RAPE OF RACHEL STRONG: They were trying to breed a special type of milk cow. And they became so enhanced with this that they decided that they could do the same thing with the people in their group, with their children.
KAYE: That led to horrible birth defects. Since most Kingston children are born in secrecy, former members of the sect tell me that many deformities, even deaths, go unreported. Stillborn babies are buried so quickly, hardly anybody notices. Another common abnormality, they say, is dwarfism. Lu Ann remembers hearing about one child in particular.
COOPER: The baby was born without arms or legs or eyes and ears. It was just basically a tomato. Is what some of the people said. And it didn't live longer than a few days.
KAYE: When Lu Ann got out, she filed charges against her husband for incest. Jeremy Ortell Kingston was sentenced to one year in prison for incest. But that was barely a slap on the wrist for the Kingstons. The family owns everything from pawn shops to supermarkets, coal mines to casinos.
COOPER: We're supposed to shop at only the Kingston stores to keep the money circulating within the Kingston group.
KAYE: We went to the Kingstons' lawyer's office to ask for their response. Attorney Carl Kingston told us in a statement, "The society, as it calls itself, believes in freedom of choice. He says the majority of families are not polygamists, and the percentage of birth defects is extremely low." For her part, Lu Ann Cooper says she feels free at last, but freedom comes with a price.
COOPER: I haven't seen my mom in the last two years, two and a half, I think. And it's hard. But at the same time, I don't want my kids around them because I don't want them trying to lure my girls back in.
KAYE: So she keeps her children close to home. Life as a family of six never felt so good. Randi Kaye, CNN, Salt Lake City, Utah.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: And in yet another twist to the Lu Ann Cooper story, she was also named in the Kristin Nelson civil suit accused of doing nothing to stop the alleged abuse, even though she was only 10 years old at the time. Lu Ann Cooper told CNN that she was afraid that if she had spoken out, Arthur Kingston, the man named in the suit, would have hurt her.
We've got the shot of the day coming up. But first, Erica Hill from "HEADLINE NEWS" joins us now with some of the other stories that we're following tonight. Hi, Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: John, kidnappers struck in Central Baghdad in broad daylight today. Gunmen in police uniforms raided bus stations grabbing at least 50 people. A witness told an Iraqi television station the attackers beat the people before putting bags over their heads and putting them in cars and driving away. We'll have more on this story coming up on "360." On now to Brigham City, Utah, where over the weekend a pilot who suffered a heart attack made an emergency landing, the plane hit a fence before coming to a stop. The three passengers on board though were not hurt. The pilot was then rushed to a hospital where he died.
Any magazine or newspaper that wants pictures of Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt's baby, is going to have to pay up. The Hollywood couple says the images of Shiloh Nouvel(PH) from a private photo shoot are for sale with proceeds going to a charity that will be named at a later date. And as for the price tag, well, that's not being disclosed yet either.
And here in Atlanta the Georgia Aquarium playing matchmaker, hopefully. Two male whale sharks now have two female companions. They were transported all the way from Taiwan in a reconfigured plane. John, researchers are hoping the sharks will eventually mate, apparently they need a couple years though for the ladies to grow.
ROBERTS: Wow, just the opposite of a mail-order bride there, huh?
HILL: Yes, it is.
ROBERTS: Hey Erica, check out our shot of the day. Are you a golfer?
HILL: I'm not, my husband is, though.
ROBERTS: Alright well check out this. Golfer Fuzzy Zoeller stole the show at the Alliance Championship on Saturday. Look at what happened on the 170 yard 16th hole. Little par 3 here, boom, puts it on the fringe, and it settles in there. Well maybe not.
HILL: Not bad.
ROBERTS: Well maybe not.
HILL: But wait, we're not done?
ROBERTS: No, watch. This is the count. Eight, nine, ten.
HILL: No way.
ROBERTS: Rolls off the fringe. Yeah, but it's not over yet. Guess where that ball is headed.
HILL: Straight up hole in one, huh?
ROBERTS: Look at this. A hole in one.
HILL: Now, that is one of the best shots I have ever seen on this program, I must say.
ROBERTS: Now get this, Zoeller never even saw it, because thinking that he had a chip shot after the ball stopped on the fringe of the green, he had stepped away and asked his caddie for a sandwich. I would have been halfway to the hole.
HILL: At least he was well fueled for the next hole, then. Thanks, John.
ROBERTS: Good to see you, Erica.
Still ahead, chilling new details emerging from terror arrests up north. Details about the dimensions of the alleged plot.
Also the battle on the border with Mexico and how National Guard troops plan to help the effort.
And she was old enough to be his mother, she was his schoolteacher, now their marriage in their own words. Around the country and the world this is "360."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Good evening again. On the Mexican border, the troops are starting to arrive. And north of the Canadian border terror suspects accused of planning mass murder in the name of God.
(ANNOUNCER)
Terror fears. The alleged plot to bomb Toronto by suspected homegrown terrorists. Tonight, America tightens its borders. Was the U.S. also a target?
State of the Union. Same-sex marriage and the constitution. The president's push for an amendment and a look at the politics behind the proposal.
And grandma grifters. Police say they retired into a life of violent crime.
It's pretty evil.
Find out why they're the prime suspects in a double murder.
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