Return to Transcripts main page

Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Zarqawi's Final Moments?; Schwarzenegger Takes on Bush Over Immigration

Aired June 09, 2006 - 22:00   ET


JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: One thousand pounds of explosives should have left no doubt about it. But, even after the bombs, the most-wanted terrorists in Iraq was alive -- tonight, new questions about Zarqawi's last moments.

ANNOUNCER: Captured alive.

MAJ. GEN. WILLIAM CALDWELL, U.S. ARMY: Zarqawi, in fact, did survive the airstrike.

ANNOUNCER: If this didn't kill him, then what did? Tonight, new details about the mystery, the mission and the final minutes.

On the road again -- the Governator is back on the bus and taking some shots at the president over illegal immigration.

And real Coneheads? Dan Aykroyd played aliens for laughs. But guess what? He's a believer in UFOs, and he says he has the evidence to prove it.

DAN AYKROYD, ACTOR: It was a pink spiral that appeared in the sky. People went out, telepathically urged, like I was.


ANNOUNCER: Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, tonight, sitting in for Anderson, John Roberts.

J. ROBERTS: It was not easy finding Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. And it was not easy killing him.

Somehow, after two 500-pound bombs were dropped on his safe house, the most-wanted terrorist in Iraq was still breathing and talking.

All the angles for you tonight. How did Zarqawi survive the airstrike? Did Iraqi troops shoot him to death? And what were his last words?

Also tonight, hometown reaction -- what the people from Zarqawi's birthplace, Zarqa, are saying about their native son.

And speaking out about Haditha -- did Marines massacre 24 civilians? Tonight, fresh details on the case and an interview with an officer who once led the platoon now under investigation. We will get to all that in just a moment.

But, first, Zarqawi's delayed death.

CNN's Barbara Starr reports.


BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The official statement from Baghdad yesterday left no doubt. Zarqawi died in the attack by two 500-pound bombs.

MAJ. GEN. BILL CALDWELL, U.S. ARMY: He was dead when we -- when we arrived there.

STARR: But now the Pentagon says that first report was wrong.

CALDWELL: What I can tell you is that, again, from the debriefs this morning, which gave us greater clarity than what we had before, is Zarqawi, in fact, did survive the airstrike.

STARR: He gave no explanation, other than, there is now more information available.

CALDWELL: According to the report, we did, in fact, see him alive. There was some kind of movement he had on the stretcher, and he died shortly thereafter. But, yes, it was confirmed by other than the Iraqi police that he was alive initially.

STARR: Iraqi police were first on the scene. U.S. troops arrived soon after and saw Zarqawi alive. They report, he mumbled something, but nobody could make it out. Military officials confirm that a medic tried to offer aid, but Zarqawi, in the final moments of his life, slipped in and out of consciousness and died within minutes.

But the military says it can't yet estimate how many minutes. Now there are more questions, but few answers, about the attack on the safe house north of Baquba. It's still not clear. How could Zarqawi have survived an explosion like that, even for a few minutes? Could the bombs have hit while he was outside the house? Was Zarqawi wearing a suicide vest?

"The New York Times" reports, U.S. troops engaged in a firefight on the ground before the bombs were dropped. But several sources tell CNN it's not clear exactly what happened in the final minutes. CNN has confirmed, a group of covert special operations forces known during the mission as Task Force 145 had the house under surveillance.

There was an answer to one question being asked. Why not just use ground troops to try and capture Zarqawi alive?

CALDWELL: You have to ask yourself, is it worth putting American men and women's lives at risk to go into what probably was a heavily fortified and guarded thing in order to grab him? STARR (on camera): But the ultimate question, could Iraqi forces, who were first on the scene, have shot Zarqawi? General Caldwell says, no, the forensics show there was no evidence that Zarqawi suffered a gunshot wound.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.


J. ROBERTS: The operation that took out Zarqawi led to dozens of raids in Iraq. Here's the "Raw Data."

Nearly 60 suspected hideouts have been searched by coalition forces since Wednesday. In some, troops found ammunition, rifles and other guns, plus Iraqi army uniforms which were hidden under the floorboards of a building, along with belts made to hold suicide bombs, and memory sticks and hard drives for computers. At least one militant has been killed and 25 others arrested in the raid.

He wasn't born Zarqawi. His last name was actually Khalayleh. The terrorist named himself after the city in Jordan that he was raised in. It's called Zarqa, a place where Zarqawi is being remembered not as a murder, but as a martyr.

Our Kevin Flower paid a visit and was hardly greeted with open arms there.


KEVIN FLOWER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sign said "Welcome." But, within minutes of arriving, it was clear we were not.

Met by Jordanian police, we were told we could not enter the city alone and that a police escort would be required -- our goal, to speak with residents of Zarqa about their most infamous son, known locally as Ahmad al-Khalayleh and to the world as terrorist mastermind Abu Musab Zarqawi, or "The Man From Zarqa."

A sprawling and dusty city of one million, Zarqa looks like many other urban areas in Jordan, a typical Friday afternoon, busy market streets, merchants selling their goods, worshipers gathering for Friday prayers.

But underneath the placid exterior here, you could almost feel the resentment at the attention being paid to Zarqawi.

"There are hundreds of Palestinians and Iraqis killed every day," this man tells us. "Are they not victims of terrorism? Why is nobody talking about this?"

It is not an uncommon sentiment. While Zarqawi's reign of terror struck hard in Jordan, killing over 60 people last year alone in a series of Amman suicide bombings, some Jordanians still don't believe he is the man described in the media.

"Who made Zarqawi fight?" this man asks. "Who made him a terrorist? Bush and Blair. They created him. He was a Muslim man. He was a man of religion. He never killed. He never fought."

Most residents here, like Hussein (ph), simply did not want to talk about their native son.

"I don't like to talk about politics," he says. "I like to talk about wrestling and PlayStation."

In fact, there is little in Zarqa indicating that the notorious terrorist ever lived here, save for his family.

(on camera): This house behind me is where Abu Musab Zarqawi was born. And it is as close as we can get to his family. Jordanian security is preventing reporters from visiting his relatives still living here, citing security concerns.

(voice-over): And our government minders would not let us get any closer than this to the tent where the family is gathering to mourn. Reporters who approached yesterday were pelted with rocks.

Back at his birthplace, youngsters from his extended family showed their support, mouthing "Zarqawi."

Kevin Flower, CNN, Zarqa, Jordan.


J. ROBERTS: Zarqawi's death comes as the Pentagon continues to investigate allegations of a massacre in the Iraqi town of Haditha.

U.S. Marines are suspected of killing 24 civilians, including women and children. We still don't know exactly what happened last November, but, tonight, we're getting new details on what the American troops were facing that morning.

CNN senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.


JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sergeant Frank Wuterich, seen here in a personal snapshot obtained exclusively by CNN, is under investigation, according to sources. He's been charged with nothing. But, as the senior Marine present when 24 civilians were killed in Haditha last year, he's already hired an attorney and is bracing for the worst.

PAUL HACKETT, ATTORNEY FOR FRANK WUTERICH: My understanding is, it was his first tour, that he's in his mid-20s, a husband and a father of two young daughters, and is devastated by this, and devastated by the way he's been portrayed in the media, and that he, you know, was -- was not in charge of or directed or aware or even believes that the events unfolded as have been depicted popularly in the media.

MCINTYRE: Defense attorney Paul Hackett is a former Marine and Ohio congressional candidate who lived through an IED attack in Iraq. He doesn't represent Wuterich or any of his fellow Marines from Kilo Company, but may represent one or more of those suspected in the attack in the future.

So, he's been collecting firsthand accounts from other Marines who were there for the explosion of a propane canister buried under a road the military dubbed Chestnut. It was that improvised bomb attack that allegedly sparked a killing rampage.

HACKETT: The IED was quickly followed by continuous sporadic AK fire. It was coming from two different directions. It was coming from the north of Chestnut. It was also coming from the south of Chestnut.

MCINTYRE: That's a lot different from the story Congressman John Murtha says he got from senior commanders.

REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA: There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted, because of the pressure on them. And they killed innocent civilians in cold blood.

MCINTYRE: Among the new information Hackett says he was told is that the Kilo Company Marines were a target waiting to happen, forced to drive basically the same daily route because of Iraqi demands that three of their soldiers from a forward base had to be relieved at the same time every morning.

In fact, there were three Iraqi army soldiers and nine U.S. Marines in the convoy when it was hit. It's not clear what the Iraqis did after the bomb went off. One Marine was killed, Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas, and two others wounded.

And, as it turned out, Hackett says those three Marines had the most combat experience.

HACKETT: As -- as fate would have it, it's mine understanding, again, that the remaining Marines on that convoy, most of them, this was their first tour, and that, for most of them, this was their first close contact and firefight with the enemy.

MCINTYRE: Part of the investigation is why five men in a taxicab, identified by villagers as four college students and a driver, were shot dead. Hackett has another question: Is it plausible the taxi just happened upon the scene? Usually, he says, when the shooting starts, people scatter.

HACKETT: My first thought is, vehicle-borne improvised explosive device, commonly known as a car bomb, or a counterattack with military-age males getting ready to jump out of that car. So, you got a split-second to make a call: Do I stop and check out who these guys are, or do I engage them?

And -- this is purely speculation on my part -- I would -- I would bet that these guys were given warning shots, start on the ground, maybe in the grille, and then, bam, they're going in the -- the windshield.

MCINTYRE: What really doesn't ring true to Hackett's current client, Marine Captain James Kimber, who heard the radio traffic that morning as he commanded a different company, is the idea that the Marines were bent on vengeance.

CAPTAIN JAMES KIMBER, U.S. MARINE CORPS: You know, the Marines are professionals. That's why -- that's why they send us in these situations, because we're the best people to deal with it. And, you know, while I would like to think that it didn't happen, I think there's more to the story than what is painted in the press. I don't think it was a matter of Marines just snapping and going on a rampage.

HACKETT: I will tell you, from firsthand experience, revenge is not an emotion that is logically even in your thought process. I mean, your thought process is, to boil it down, God, let me get home.

MCINTYRE: So, what happened? Hackett's theory is that the Marines had to clear houses harboring the people who they thought had been shooting at them earlier.

HACKETT: You cannot imagine the fear that's going through you when you approach that house. And you can't imagine the fear you have to overcome to enter that house to find the guy who was just trying to kill you.

MCINTYRE: Still unanswered, any explanation for how women and children were shot at close range.


MCINTYRE: Now, Hackett is a defense attorney. And, if he takes on any of the accused -- accused as a client, he will have to find a -- quote -- "better explanation for what happened."

And while he concedes that some bad things may have happened in Haditha, he argues that, when the full story comes out, it won't be nearly so black and white -- John.

J. ROBERTS: Jamie, has there been anything from investigators or the Pentagon to corroborate this idea of a firefight immediately after the IED went off? Because that would seem, if it's true, to substantially change the situation as we know it on the ground.

MCINTYRE: Well, the Marines initially claimed that they were responding to fire from these houses. We do know from other Marines that there were definitely other firefights in the area, but perhaps not quite at this location, or perhaps not from the houses.

And, of course, we don't know what the investigators have concluded, because it may be another month or two before those findings are -- are made public.

J. ROBERTS: Jamie McIntyre, live at the Pentagon for us tonight -- thanks, Jamie. You have been doing a great job on this story all week.

Before he retired from the United States Marine Corps, Lieutenant Jesse Grapes led 3rd Platoon, Kilo Company, the very company facing allegations of massacring civilians in Haditha. He left the platoon three months before that incident occurred.

Jesse Grapes joins me now from Palo Alto, California.

Do you think it's possible that what's alleged to have happened, indeed, did happen?

1ST LIEUTENANT JESSE GRAPES (RET.), U.S. MARINE CORPS: Well, John, I think that, in this type of counterinsurgency environment like was just mentioned, it's not always black and white, because you have an omnipresent and -- but unidentifiable enemy. And, oftentimes, those without necessarily a weapon, like perhaps these people who were driving up in a taxi, can be a perceived threat, because someone does trigger an IED blast.

It's not something that goes off by itself. And -- and that's not to exonerate anyone from any disobedience of the laws of war or the Uniform Code of Military Justice or proper rules of engagement, but I think that it makes the issue less black and white than it might appear.

J. ROBERTS: Yes. We should probably point out, too, that, over the course of the invasion and the war, there were plenty of occasions where people were running up to checkpoints, didn't stop, and -- and ended up getting shot.

You led that platoon, 3rd Platoon, Kilo Company, until September of 2005. What were your observations of the men in that unit?

GRAPES: The observations -- my observations of the men in that unit were that they continuously served themselves and their country with distinction.

And, just in the battle of Fallujah alone, they had to make the transition from counterinsurgency to high-intensity house fighting, the most intense urban combat, back to counterinsurgency, in preparation for the first January elections. And those Marines performed heroically, despite losing over 50 percent of their own friends in their platoon to either wounds or death.

Over 19 Marines in that -- who served in or with that platoon were decorated for valor, including two Navy Crosses and four Bronze Stars. Now, again, those heroics don't vilify them from -- for any type of actions that could have happened in Haditha, but they do provide, I think, some necessary back-story...

J. ROBERTS: Right.

GRAPES: ... and insight into the lives of these Marines.

J. ROBERTS: Or -- or exonerate them, I think, is the word you might have been looking for.

GRAPES: Yes, exactly. Thank you.

J. ROBERTS: Yes. Some -- some people have suggested that they cracked under the stress. What was your experience with them in stressful situations? What -- you know, how did they react to stress?

GRAPES: In my experience with them, they reacted very, very well.

Keep in mind, two of the -- the major suburbs of Fallujah, Al Karma and Ash Shahabi. And during the counterinsurgency period there, these same Marines, this same unit, was being attacked daily by mortars, rockets, IEDs. And it is very easy to -- to lose a moral compass in that type of environment, where you never have an enemy to stand and face you, to stand and fight you, yet you're still being attacked.

In those five months, only one Marine fired a shot, which was -- was justified, after an IED attack -- five months counterinsurgency, high-intensity, one shot. I mean, they -- they -- they...


J. ROBERTS: And, then, that was -- and that was Miguel Terrazas who took that shot...


J. ROBERTS: ... as well, wasn't it?

GRAPES: Yes, John, it was.

J. ROBERTS: The contention has been made, Lieutenant, that the Haditha incident was a reaction to Terrazas' death in that IED explosion.

GRAPES: Right.

J. ROBERTS: How close were the members of that unit? And, in your experience, could his death have thrown them into some sort of rage, as -- as has been alleged?

GRAPES: Well, on the first point, the members of that unit were very, very close.

They -- I -- I disagree with something that was said earlier. Almost everyone in the unit was on at least their second tour, one Marine on their third tour. Almost all of them had either fought in Najaf or Fallujah, the two biggest battles of the war. So, they were very, very close. The bonds of fellowship there were strong.

As far as Miguel Terrazas, he was, honestly, the most beloved Marine in that platoon. And any time you lose someone so close to you, there is -- there is a degree of -- of anguish and despair that initially just, you know, takes control of you. So, I can understand the -- the degree that they would be upset. I, myself, was that upset when I heard about it.


Lieutenant, thanks very much for your insight. Really appreciate it.

GRAPES: Thank you, John.

J. ROBERTS: Jesse Grapes, who is joining us from Palo Alto tonight.

Clearly, in Iraq, as Miguel Terrazas and the members of his unit found out, three letters can change your life in an instant. IEDs, they can be anywhere. They can reduce a Humvee to a pile of twisted metal in a heartbeat. They're also creating a generation of brain- injured soldiers. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has got that story for us, coming up.

Plus, the governor of California hits the road, looking for votes and navigating his way through the thorny issue of immigration by taking on the president.

And we will have this:


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many times have you been abducted by aliens?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More than 10, yes, more than 20, probably.


J. ROBERTS: More than 20. And that fellow's not the only one who believes that aliens are real. Coming up, Anderson interviews actor Dan Aykroyd about his admitted obsession with all things alien -- that and more when 360 continues.


J. ROBERTS: Now to the battlefield in Iraq, where American troops woke up today to the same dangers as always, even with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi out of the picture.

Three letters have made this war unlike any other, IED, improvised explosive device, an elaborate name for a homemade bomb. Nearly 2,500 American troops have died since the war began. Seven times as many, more than 18,000, have been wounded. And the scars they carry are unique to Iraq.

Here's 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta.


DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every war has a signature injury. For Sergeant David Emme, this was it. He was in Iraq for just seven weeks, a sergeant running supplies from Tal Afar to Mosul, when, suddenly, his truck set off an explosive device.

SGT. DAVID EMME, BRAIN INJURY PATIENT: Yes, I didn't see a blast or anything. Next thing I know, is, I wake up and my head hurts. I was pretty much deaf and blind. I had two teeth that were blown out. I basically didn't have an eardrum in my left ear.

GUPTA: And a brain that had been rattled back and forth in his helmet, a traumatic brain injury, or TBI. As things stand today, over two-thirds of the soldiers injured in a blast suffer from TBI.

Overall, at least one of every five of those serving in Iraq and Afghanistan report more mild concussions. It means brain injuries have become the signature of this war.

The Vietnam War became known for spinal cord injuries, amputations and Agent Orange poisonings. The first Gulf War inflicted the Gulf War Syndrome on many soldiers. But this time, it is the effect of the blasts of IEDs, improvised explosive devices.

They create blasts that literally rock the brain, similar to a high-impact car accident. The skull moves forward, strikes a hard surface, then stops suddenly. The brain goes back and forth. Think of Jell-O wiggling. And, then, from bruising, it begins to swell.

EMME: My brain swelled up twice to size of a normal brain. They took a big hunk of my skull out to allow it to swell up.

GUPTA: That operation saved his life. Today, he looks much more like he did before. But the signature of brain injury may be subtle.

EMME: It was like somebody speaking a foreign language. You know, and they had to keep on repeatedly tell me the same stuff, because, you know, due to the brain injury, I had a hard time comprehending or talking or verbalizing.

GUPTA: In mild cases, a traumatic brain injury may be a mild headache or occasional dizziness. More severe cases can involve complete memory loss, personality changes, or even persistent vegetative state.

But unlike an obviously severed limb, traumatic brain injuries are difficult to diagnose, sometimes only noticeable years after leaving the battlefield.

DR. DEBORAH WARDEN, DEFENSE AND VETERANS BRAIN INJURY CENTER: People will tell us years later that they are aware that they had had that accident, that injury to their brain, and difficulties they had from it.

GUPTA: But make no mistake: They are increasingly common. In fact, today, all wounded soldiers are automatically screened for traumatic brain injuries. And the Veterans Brain Injury Center now recommends that, wounded or not, all returning military personnel be screened for concussions. But the Pentagon has yet to mandate it.

When Sergeant Emme was screened, his doctor saw clear changes in his personality, such as anger and hostility, leading to violence.

EMME: They call this the -- the silent wound, or the silent injury, that I'm not the Sergeant David Emme that I used to be.

GUPTA: For Sergeant Emme and other wounded soldiers, everlasting echoes of their silent injuries.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.


J. ROBERTS: "The Shot" of the day is coming up.

But, first, Thomas Roberts from Headline News joins us with some of the other stories that we're following tonight.

Hi, Thomas.

THOMAS ROBERTS, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, John, a pretty wild lead headline tonight: Former FEMA Director Michael Brown is suggesting that president was happy to hear that Brown was taking the fall over the Hurricane Katrina response. He points to an e-mail he says he got from a top-level official at the White House which indicates that President Bush was relieved that Brown was getting the brunt of the criticism, and not the president or Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.

CNN cannot verify the authenticity of the e-mail. The White House says it's not commenting on it, calling Brown's claim an old rumor.

In Washington, the congressman who has called for a six-month withdrawal from Iraq plans to run for House majority leader, if Democrats take control in November. Representative John Murtha's announcement came by his colleagues -- or came, to his colleagues, to a little bit of a surprise. Some have called it a huge distraction. Democrats still need to take at least 15 seats to take control of the House.

And, meanwhile, today was the last day in the House for former Majority Leader Tom DeLay. And, like much of his tenure, it was not without partisan fighting. Texas Democrats have won a temporary restraining order, blocking Republican officials from naming a candidate to replace DeLay on the November ballot. Delay, who won the Texas primary in march, says he's now a Virginia resident, and therefore cannot be on the ballot in Texas. He even voted absentee in Virginia today.

And, in Miami, a pretty close call for some kittens -- a cat had been using a Corvette as a shelter for her little ones. And, had someone started up the car, the kittens could have been hurt pretty badly. But, fortunately, though, a doorman spotted them, and they were rescued.

John, apparently, momma kitty had some very good taste, picking out the Corvette as their temporary home, anyway. J. ROBERTS: Got to be a cool cat to be living in a Corvette.

T. ROBERTS: Absolutely.

J. ROBERTS: Thomas, stick around for "The Shot," the video that caught our eye today.

This one comes to us from Highland Park, Pennsylvania. A deer jumped into a reservoir and needed some rescue here, because there was a very steep concrete shoreline, you can see there. The deer wasn't able to wake up it. They chased it around with a boat for what must have been a half-an-hour. The poor deer was so exhausted, they had to drag it up on shore. It couldn't even walk up on shore.

And watch this. When they finally get it over the lip of the reservoir here and into the parking lot, they try to let it go. It's so exhausted, it falls down. A couple minutes later, though, it gets up and runs off into the woods, which just goes to show that, sometimes, these rescuers have the best of intentions...


J. ROBERTS: ... like trying to get the deer out of the reservoir, but it doesn't work out so well for the animal. Remember what happened when they put a trampoline under a bear caught in a tree?

T. ROBERTS: How can you forget?

J. ROBERTS: Yes. How can you ever forget that?

Hey, let's put the trampoline here, because it will make for a soft landing for the bear. Well, it did. But as kids have proven time and time again, you bounce that high on a trampoline, you're likely to come off and land on your nose.

T. ROBERTS: Yes, bound to bounce off. And that poor bear, he has had many lives, hasn't he, John?

J. ROBERTS: He has. We have -- we have...

T. ROBERTS: We have seen this video over and over again.


J. ROBERTS: We keep running that video over and over again. And it -- always, every time we run it, we caution that the bear was not injured.

T. ROBERTS: Bear not injured.

J. ROBERTS: And they took it out to the woods and let it go.

Thomas, good to see you. Have a good weekend.

T. ROBERTS: Thank you, John. J. ROBERTS: Could Arnold Schwarzenegger become the newest comeback kid? The California governor has been low in the polls, but is he gaining traction by criticizing President Bush? We will talk one-on-one with the Governator.

Plus, comedy star Dan Aykroyd makes the case for UFOs. We will hear from him and some people who say they know firsthand what it's like to be abducted by aliens -- when 360 continues.


ROBERTS: Sudden death on a Gaza beach today. This Palestinian girl's family was picnicking when her father was killed by an artillery shell. He was one of at least seven Palestinians who died. Israel says it has halted all firing in the area, pending an investigation.

But the military wing of Hamas is vowing retaliation. It says it is calling off a truce that it had in place since February of last year. Of course, you may not have known that there was even a truce since other militant groups have kept up attacks. Tonight, a CNN exclusive. CNN's Ben Wedeman gives us an inside look at how Palestinian militants in Gaza manage to target Israeli civilians miles away.


BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In a nondescript hovel somewhere in Gaza, masked men mix a witch's brew of chemicals. This is a rocket workshop where members of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade under strict secrecy go about their deadly business. To get to the workshop, we changed cars three times, riding in one with the group's gunman. We were blindfolded in the last one. The chief engineer, masked to protect his identity, goes by the name Ahmed. With chilling professionalism, he explains how they melt aluminum to make the rocket's components. How they mix the toxic ingredients for the propellant in this basin.

One of our guys was killed by these chemicals, he says. Abu Ahmed declines to say what they use to make the propellant. Because the enemy is always on the lookout to stop us getting the materials, he tells me. The group says they can make as many as 50 rockets a week, and ironically, almost all the raw materials they use come from Israel. For extra lethal effect, they pack parcels of metal shards into the warhead. One of these rockets recently crashed into a school classroom in the Israeli town of Starote. It would have resulted in a massacre had the students been in the room at the time.

These are crude weapons without guidance systems, designed to inflict maximum casualties. Fired on a daily basis, they don't differentiate between soldier and civilian. The Israeli army says Palestinian groups have fired more than 5,000 rockets in the last six years, killing 13 civilians and two soldiers in the past two years. The Israeli army regularly bombards areas from where the rockets are fired. Hitting northern Gaza with more than 5,000 rounds so far this year. At least six Palestinians have been killed by the shelling, according to Palestinian medical sources. Both sides are paying a high price for this reign of rockets. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Gaza.


ROBERTS: The battle over immigration is heating up. And republican Arnold Schwarzenegger has some tough words for President Bush. Could it help or hurt Schwarzenegger's re-election campaign? CNN's John King talked with him on the campaign trail.

Also, Dan Aykroyd starred in "Ghostbusters," now he admits he's obsessed with close encounters of the third kind. Not as a movie concept, as reality. Coming up why Aykroyd is so sure aliens exist. Coming up next on "360."


ROBERTS: With his approval rating below 50 percent, California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is flexing what political muscle he has left in an impressive way. As he seeks re-election in the November election, he's drawing big crowds in a statewide bus tour. CNN's John King caught up with the governator to talk immigration, the key issue that could make or break his political career.


JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: On the road in California, seeking both re-election and the middle ground in the bitter immigration debate that is shaping his campaign and so many others. Governor Schwarzenegger is no fan of President Bush's plan to deploy the National Guard to the U.S./Mexico border.

GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, (R) CALIFORNIA: The idea of sending National Guards to the borders was half-baked. And I told him that. It's an idea that's half-baked. I said, let's not rush those things.

KING: Do you think it was half-baked in your words because they were rushing it because of the election year political climate?

SCHWARZENEGGER: No I don't want to second guess why was it half baked. I think what they should have done is if anything, is talk to us first and say, come to Washington, let's work this out.

KING: Despite his reservations, the governor last week agreed to deploy California guard troops, but only through the end of 2008 and only after the White House agreed to pay the costs. The president's embrace of using fencing and barriers across large sections of the border is another source of tension.

SCHWARZENEGGER: Well, I think that that is not thought through. Because walls, as we have seen with the 40 tunnels that have been discovered, doesn't really help, you know, the situation with a wall. Because you can build the tunnels, they could drive trucks through it.

KING: Balloting this week put the internal republican immigration divide on full display in California. Winning a special house election in San Diego, Republican Brian Bilbray denounced the president's call for a new guest worker program allowing millions of illegal immigrants a path to citizenship.

BRIAN BILBRAY, (R) CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: The president proposing amnesty was absolutely a big problem.

KING: Now Bilbray says he will urge other republicans to copy his tough message.

BILBRAY: Don't listen to the senate and don't listen to the White House. They mean well, but they're not listening to the people.

KING: The president is wrong. The senate is wrong. No amnesty. Focus on border security. No guest worker program that puts people on a path to citizenship. Is that the right message on immigration?

SCHWARZENEGGER: Well, that maybe was the right message for him in order to win. A little decaffeinated.


KING: For all his disagreements with the president, Schwarzenegger is with Mr. Bush and against Congressman Bilbray when it comes to the guest worker program. (INAUDIBLE) California's growing Latino vote and says his state and maybe his political fortunes will pay a price if the warring voices in congress fail to agree on major reforms this year. John King, CNN, Antioch, California.


ROBERTS: Well, another big entertainment star of the 1980s is making news, Dan Aykroyd. His latest film a nonfiction one, makes the case that UFOs are real. He talked to Anderson about why he believes the earth is being visited by aliens. And he has lots of company. Millions of people insist that they, or someone they know, have been abducted by extraterrestrials. And they even bear witness under hypnosis. Those stories when "360" continues.


ROBERTS: For (INAUDIBLE) of flying saucers, June is a very special time. It was 59 years ago this month that modern reports of UFOs and aliens among us began filtering in. A number of opinion polls suggest that as many as 48 percent of all Americans believe that aliens visit earth. That could mean that there's a ready market for Dan Aykroyd's latest film, but this is no cone head reunion. It's a documentary. Dan Aykroyd, unplugged, on UFOs. Anderson recently spoke with Aykroyd and producer David Sereda.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: So you really believe that UFOs exist. Why?

DAN AYKROYD, UNPLUGGED ON UFOS: Well, I think the preponderance of anecdotal evidence from pilots, from law enforcement people, from people who have had experiences and sightings, I think also my own experience. I've had a high altitude sighting with three other people. It definitely wasn't a helicopter, a jet. Now of course, you know, a professional would discount my sighting and say, well, you don't really know. I can't sit here and tell you 100 percent that I saw a craft that was created by beings from another planet outside of our sphere of technology. I can't tell you 100 percent. I can just tell you what I saw and what I feel. They're here. They're looking at us in a Petri dish and I've got to say, the way mankind is behaving, they're probably very disappointed.

COOPER: David, why did you make this documentary?

DAVID SEREDA, PRODUCER, "UNPLUGGED ON UFOS": Well, actually, in 1968, I was 7 years old, walking home from elementary school. And all of these people were pointing up in the sky at this metallic dish- shaped UFO with a little, you know, knob on the top. And it was clear. This thing was down low, you know 3500 feet. If I had a video camera back then, it would have been some of the best footage we've ever seen to date.

And when you see one of these things, I mean, 20 clear minutes people were pounding on the neighbors' doors, get out here. Look at this thing. And when you look at it and you replay that in your memory, it's beyond all the videotapes and the photographs. It's so real to me. It was so real to me at such a young age that I just couldn't ignore it. So I was engaged at 7 years old into this phenomenon.

COOPER: In the film Dan, you talk about a personal experience that you had. I just want to play some of that from the movie.


AYKROYD: I woke up in the middle of the night and I said to my wife, they're calling me, they're calling me. I want to go outside, they want me to come outside and see. Something outside wants me to come out and see. Oh, just go back to bed. I went back to bed but in the next day in the media, in newspapers and radio, all over upstate New York and Ontario and Quebec and Vermont, people spoke about this urge they had to go out of their houses at 3:00 in the morning and look up into the sky.


COOPER: Come on, is that for real?

AYKROYD: Yeah, you could research, that was in the mid-'80s. In fact it was a pink spiral that appeared in the sky. People went out, telepathically urged like I was, I didn't go, shmuck. They went out, in the sky they saw this pink spiral in the sky, huge, miles, like two miles long. And the air force said it was a Chinese rocket.

COOPER: Isn't this sort of one of those things that's like the Kennedy assassination? I mean there are people, no matter what evidence is put forward, there is no evidence or that, you know the lights turn out to be, you know, a plane or a helicopter or something or just a natural phenomenon. AYKROYD: The moon, all the old excuses.

COOPER: There's nothing -- this argument can never be settled.

AYKROYD: Half the world believes in the latest polls and half doesn't. And those who don't will never believe. We can show them everything and they're not going to -- until they're taken up themselves or the guy walks up and shakes their hand or probes them or whatever they do.

COOPER: I mean look, do you believe there's people who -- there's all these people who claim to have been abducted by aliens.

AYKROYD: I believe them.

COOPER: You do really?

AYKROYD: I don't believe all of them, but I was in a room at the Fifth Avenue Medical Institute with John Mac and his staff and his assistant, his clinical assistant got up and gave a 15-minute presentation that was absolutely riveting. Here is what people are telling us. John Mac was a Harvard psychiatrist, he discovered this through work in hypnosis and he saw people were regressing and telling these stories. It's all the same. Now is it a mass hallucination? Some people say its sleep terror.

COOPER: Right. There are people who said, well, you know, I woke up, I couldn't move, I was paralyzed. It was the aliens who did it and the doctors say well that's sleep terror. You wake up, you feel you can't move.

AYKROYD: It could be. But I have people that I believe are credible that claim they've been taken that have the scoop marks and that have been implanted.

COOPER: If they came by in the middle of the night --

AYKROYD: Yes, I'd go.

COOPER: You'd go really?

AYKROYD: Yeah, as long as I wasn't a probe "b." As long as they let me drive.

COOPER: And as long as you'd be back in the morning or else your wife would kill you.

AYKROYD: Well that's right. Or she can come, too.


ROBERTS: I've just been doodling a little here. It's all easy to laugh about, of course, unless it happened to you.


UNKNOWN: Touching me. Quit touching me. Ah!


ROBERTS: Under hypnosis, some people vividly recall what they claim are alien abductions. We're going to have their stories for you.

Also, in the next hour, probing the lives of three of the world's most notorious men, the now deceased Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, plus Al Qaeda's top two Osama Bin Laden and Ayman Al Zawahiri when 360 continues.


ROBERTS: Before the break, we cited poll numbers indicating that up to 48 percent of Americans think that UFOs are real. If that number surprises you, well, wait until we dig just a little bit deeper. A stunning number of people not only believe in UFOs, they're convinced that they've been taken along for a ride. Here's CNN's Gary Tuchman.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Clayton and Donna Lee consider themselves a happy couple. How long have you guys been married?

DONNA LEE: 18 1/2 years, it will be 19 years January 2nd.

TUCHMAN: But not an ordinary couple.

CLAYTON LEE: I want to go home. I want to go home!

TUCHMAN: Under hypnosis --

Relax completely and listen to the sound of my voice.

TUCHMAN: It's apparent the Lees are quite out of the ordinary.

DONNA LEE: Oh, no. I just need to go. I just need to go.

TUCHMAN: What's going on here? Clayton and Donna Lee are trying to retrieve memories about being kidnapped by creatures from another world. Donna has drawn a picture of an alien who she says captured her. Clayton says one of his capturers looked similar. How many times have you been abducted by aliens?

CLAYTON LEE: More than 10. Yeah. More than 20 probably.

We have come to visit you in peace.

TUCHMAN: For most people, visions of alien abductions are limited to the movies and TV. But in a CNN/"Time" magazine poll in 1997, 2 percent of respondents said they had been abducted by aliens or knew someone who was. Based on the sample that correlated to more than 5 million Americans. Clayton Lee says he was a child in this Houston park the first time he was abducted. Saying he was lifted in the air.

CLAYTON LEE: And I remember just floating up, higher and higher, until all that was around me were stars and blackness. And then I blacked out.

TUCHMAN: The hypnotist tries to retrieve further memories of that day.

CLAYTON LEE: Quit touching me. Quit touching me. Ah!

What is that, Clayton?


What's the reason for all this?

They gave me something.

What was it they gave you?

They gave me something.

TUCHMAN: The hypnotist, who's a private investigator, also claims to have been an abductee. You can understand how a lot of people would think, this is really far out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well I think it's far out. I think it's bizarre. And I wish it had never happened to me. My life would be a lot better.

TUCHMAN: Susan Clancy is a Harvard psychiatrist who decided to do research on people's abduction claims.

SUSAN CLANCY, HARVARD PSYCHIATRIST: When I ran the first add looking for people who thought they had been abducted by aliens, I thought we'd get very few calls, but we were inundated with calls for a month after we ran one ad.

TUCHMAN: The ads were for subjects who wanted to be included in her new book about people who believed they were kidnapped by aliens. But Clancy is determined she is not a believer.

CLANCY: So people have symptoms like psychological distress, anxiety, sexual problems, nightmares. And for better or for worse, today being abducted by aliens is a culturally available explanation for why you might have some of these symptoms.

TUCHMAN: With all the reported alien abductions, you might think there would be one high-quality photograph or videotape that would indisputably show aliens in action. Until that happens, most people will have their doubts. But not all people.

Clayton remains convinced this scar is a remnant of an experimental operation to collect his DNA. Donna believes a fetus was taken from her body. Is it possible -- possible that you just have a vivid imagination? And that this really didn't happen? DONNA LEE: No. I mean, I have a vivid imagination, but I know it happened.

TUCHMAN: And they both say they expect to be abducted again. At any time. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Houston.

We need to get the bungee situation --


ROBERTS: Coming up, they are three names that have long instilled terror, Zarqawi, Zawahiri, Bin Laden. We'll take a look at how these bad guys became the most dangerous men in the world, a special edition of 360, the world's most wanted coming up next.