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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Suspect Arrested in JonBenet Ramsey Murder Case; Did United States Help Plan War in Lebanon?; Can U.N. Peacekeepers Handle Hezbollah?
Aired August 16, 2006 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Little girl lost, her killing, the ultimate cold case, her parents under suspicion, the country transfixed -- now, almost 10 years later, a stunning break in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.
Body of evidence -- did the killer leave a vital clue behind? CSI 1996 and now.
And handling Hezbollah -- are peacekeepers really up to the job?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of ANDERSON COOPER 360.
In for Anderson tonight, Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem.
Was the United States involved in planning the war in Lebanon? A daunting question here tonight, and we will explore it later in the program.
First, though, the blockbuster developments in the 10-year-old JonBenet Ramsey murder case, and CNN's Tom Foreman -- Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, JonBenet Ramsey would have turned 16 this month. She was only six when her body was found, beaten and strangled in her Boulder, Colorado, home, the day after Christmas, nine and-a-half years ago.
Ever since, her parents have lived, and one has died, under suspicion. Patsy Ramsey died still mourning her daughter, with people she didn't even know all around the country believing she was a depraved killer. Tonight, it appears to be a whole new case.
Here is CNN's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We don't know a lot about the alleged suspect in the killing of JonBenet Ramsey, but what we are told about him is chilling.
Law enforcement officials, say John Mark Karr is a former schoolteacher, arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, notorious for its sex trade and for child prostitution.
A U.S. citizen, aged 41, he apparently moved around a lot. And we know he's now the suspect in one of the great unsolved mysteries of the last 10 years, the gruesome murder of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey.
LIN WOOD, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN RAMSEY: I received a telephone call this morning from Boulder district attorney Mary Lacy informing me that, in fact, John Mark Karr had been arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, and charged with the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.
ARENA: Law enforcement sources say, Karr confessed to parts of the crime, and that he was in contact with someone in Boulder, Colorado, about JonBenet, someone who was working with law enforcement.
And how did they find Karr? The Boulder DA's office says, it took several months, and that the investigation was focused and complex -- the arrest a joint operation between investigators from the Boulder DA's office and Thai police.
JonBenet's father, John Ramsey, said he didn't know Karr, but that authorities had clued him and his wife Patsy in on the investigation. And he said that Patsy knew they were on the trail before she died of cancer in June.
John Ramsey, once under suspicion himself for the killing, got the news this morning. And CNN affiliate KUSA got an exclusive interview.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, KUSA)
JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: Based on what happened to us, I don't think it's proper that we speculate or discuss the case. I think it's important that justice be allowed to run its course and -- and -- and do its job.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: U.S. Immigration and Custom Enforcement officials are expected to escort Karr back to the United States and into a host of unanswered questions about who he is and what he might have done all those years ago -- Tom.
FOREMAN: Unanswered questions seem overwhelming this afternoon. In your experience on covering these things, especially with an international case, is this common, or does this strike you as full of question marks about this guy?
ARENA: I think this is pretty common, I mean, that we have the questions, not the investigators, Tom. So, I'm told that the story behind the story is quite fascinating, but, because of the international sensitivities, many U.S. investigators are just reluctant to speak.
FOREMAN: Well, it's an interesting case, especially that the feds are involved in this way, when, normally, they wouldn't be.
ARENA: Mmm-hmm.
FOREMAN: Kelli Arena, thank you so much...
ARENA: You're welcome.
FOREMAN: ... for your work on this.
Shortly after the news broke, John Ramsey released a statement. It reads in part as follows: "I do want to say that the investigation of the individual arrested today in connection with JonBenet's death was discussed with Patsy and me by the Boulder district attorney's office prior to Patsy's death in June." That's this past June. "So, Patsy was aware that authorities were close to making an arrest in the case, and, had she lived to see this day," he writes, "would have no doubt been as pleased as I am with today's development, almost 10 years after our daughter's murder."
That's today. Here's how we got here.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN (voice-over): They are images frozen in time, a child beauty queen, 6 years old, performing on a stage. We know her name. And now, 10 years after her death, we may soon know who killed her.
On the day after Christmas 1996, the body of JonBenet Ramsey was found in the basement of her family's home in Boulder, Colorado. She had been beaten, strangled, a handwritten ransom note left on the staircase.
It was the city's only murder of the year, and it instantly became the focus of a nation. JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, said an intruder murdered their daughter, after attempting to kidnap her.
In an interview with CNN, they urged parents to be careful.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: If I were a resident of Boulder, I would tell my friends to keep -- keep your babies close to you. There's someone out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: But the police and much of the media were pointing fingers at the Ramseys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They do remain under an umbrella of suspicion, but we're not ready to name any suspects.
FOREMAN: Even after a grand jury failed to indict the Ramseys, to many, they remained subjects of suspicion.
In 2000, on "LARRY KING LIVE" Steve Thomas, a former Boulder police detective, confronted John and Patsy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
STEVE THOMAS, FORMER BOULDER POLICE DETECTIVE: I felt that Patsy is involved in this death, in this tragedy. And I felt it had become such a debacle and was going nowhere.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": John, why did you agree to come on with Steve tonight?
JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: I mean, this is rather historic. I don't -- I'm trying to remember if there has ever been television like this.
JOHN RAMSEY: This -- this man, as a police officer, has called my wife a murderer. He has called me a -- complicity to murder. He has called me a liar. He has slandered my relationship with my daughter, Patsy's relationship with JonBenet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Thomas wrote a book, claiming the Ramseys were involved in their child's murder. In 2001, the Ramseys sued, and, a year later, settled out of court.
Then, in 2003, the Boulder Police Department ended its investigation and handed it over to the district attorney. The DA vowed to reopen the case, but refused to eliminate the Ramseys as possible suspects.
Just a month later, the DA changed her mind. A judge ruled in a civil case that an intruder most likely killed JonBenet, and the prosecutor agreed, finally removing the cloud of suspicion over the parents.
By that point, the Ramseys had moved to Michigan, where they continued to monitor the investigation, hoping DNA evidence would bring the killer to justice.
Patsy Ramsey wouldn't live to see her daughter's murder solved. In June, she died of ovarian cancer, but not before learning that Boulder authorities had a suspect in their sights. Patsy was buried in a Georgia cemetery, next to JonBenet, who, had she lived, would now be 16 years old.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: This break in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is a stunning turn that caught many people off guard today, including many of us who covered it from the beginning.
Joining me now are two folks who did just that, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Craig Silverman, former chief deputy DA in Denver. Guys, did either one of you think this would ever happen?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Not -- not a clue, Tom.
You know, we -- we covered this together, when we both worked at ABC, and -- and it -- the years passed. And, you know, the fact is, cold cases only get solved during prime time. They don't get -- they don't get solved in the news, with very few exceptions. And I assumed this one would just be one of those.
FOREMAN: Why, Craig, do you think it became such a cold case? And I presume you also did not expect this.
CRAIG SILVERMAN, FORMER DENVER, COLORADO, CHIEF DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: No.
Throughout the decade people would ask me, do I think the case will ever be solved? And I said, ever is a long time. But I was shocked that it happened this week. It -- it -- so many people in law enforcement came and went during the pendency of this case.
Then, you had a situation where the Boulder DA's office actually took the case away from the Boulder police and said, we don't trust you anymore. We're going to handle it out of our office. And, indeed, they have handled it, culminating in this arrest in Thailand today.
FOREMAN: Well, you have worked on many prosecutions, Craig.
If -- if you were confronted with that, would you be looking at this and saying, at the moment, gosh, we have got a strong case, or, we automatically have big problems to deal with?
SILVERMAN: Well, here's what I assume. I assume they have incriminating statements from Mr. Karr, but they also have corroboration.
Understand that, in a lot of murder cases, there are very few clues. From the outset of Christmas 1996, this case has been blessed, or cursed, with a super-abundance of clues, some conflicting.
There's DNA. There's a palm print. There's a shoe print. There's other physical evidence. If Mr. Karr can be a match on the DNA -- look, he's going to be a match or a miss. If he's a match, that's going to be game, set, and match, because the DNA was found in this little girl's underwear.
FOREMAN: Jeffrey, you remember, back when this all cut loose, that one of the issues was that there was a feeling that there wasn't enough DNA, or enough uncontaminated DNA, of anything they found to do anything with it.
And, yet, you were talking today about the fact that there seems to have been a turning point in this around 2003. TOOBIN: Right. You know, again, the passage of time has also meant the change in technology. And the -- the -- the underwear that was taken from JonBenet's body in 1996 was tested using the most modern equipment seven years later, in 2003. And, apparently, the results were an unknown male left some kind of DNA there.
Now, that was, in part, one of the reasons the Ramseys themselves were cleared, because they -- there was no match from any family member. One of the things I assume we will learn promptly is whether this DNA matches Karr. Certainly, the only responsible thing to have done would have been to -- to -- to test Karr's DNA against this sample. And we will see what the results are.
FOREMAN: Craig, one of the things we have been told all day is that this man knew things about this crime that nobody else knew.
After 10 years of this kind of exhaustive publicity, and talking about this thing, what could there be that nobody else knew?
SILVERMAN: Well, it's hard to say. There has been speculation about a stun gun. Some very respected coroners around here said that a stun gun was used. Perhaps they have turned up evidence of a stun gun. There's also the matter of the rope that was brought into the house to form the garrote.
Perhaps they have evidence surrounding that rope and where Mr. Karr purchased it. It's also intriguing to know that Karr has a Georgia connection, which is the original home of JonBenet and her family.
FOREMAN: Jeffrey, let me ask you this about the international part of this, when you look at law.
One of the things that raises my radar immediately is, I start saying, if this man said this in a jail cell or to authorities or something overseas, even over the Internet overseas, doesn't that raise a lot of questions about what will happen with this evidence and whatever he said?
TOOBIN: Well -- well, certainly, the -- the -- the nature of the interrogation -- was he offered the right to counsel? Was he treated properly? Were Miranda warnings given? All of those things will be -- be litigated in an American courtroom.
But it's a lot different arresting someone in Bangkok than it is in the United States. How can you even offer someone in Bangkok an American lawyer? They're not -- they're not -- there are not any of them over there.
So, that -- that will be something that, if Mr. Karr is charged, and if he fights the charges, that will certainly be an avenue he -- he will want to pursue.
One thing I -- I should add is that some people think, you know, extradition is some complicated procedure. You know, all the extradition procedure does is determine whether John Karr is the person named in the complaint. It's not about guilt or innocence. So, I don't expect extradition will be a great complexity in this case.
FOREMAN: When you think about all of the evidence that we looked at so many years ago on this thing, Jeffrey, and all of the conflicting evidence, as you pointed out, some of it seemed to point to the family. Some of it seemed to point to maybe an intruder.
Look, is this the kind of case you would like to take on as an attorney?
TOOBIN: Only -- DNA towers above all the other evidence. If Karr matches the DNA found in her underwear, this case is over.
If it doesn't, maybe there would be some -- some fruitful grounds for defending him. The -- the -- all the other stuff is intriguing. It's complicated. The pad of paper that came from the house, the handwriting analysis, all of that can be spun different ways.
But, if the DNA matches, there's no other evidence necessary.
FOREMAN: But, Craig, don't -- don't they still have to prove some of this? Let's say the DNA matches. Don't they still have to get over the notion of, how did he get in the house? How did he kill her? How did he get away?
SILVERMAN: Well, we know that there was an open window leading to the basement. We know how she was killed. She was hit on the head, and then asphyxiated with the garrote.
I think they're going to have the evidence. And I don't think the DA would be bringing the case without solid corroboration, because she is acutely aware of how any defense attorney can point at the Ramseys as alternate suspects. Santa Claus, Bill McReynolds, was an alternate suspect.
There are lots of fingers to point, but Jeffrey is right. If it's his DNA, then he's going to go to prison.
FOREMAN: Very quickly, if you can, Craig, what -- what should we look for next, in the next coming days, in Colorado there, where you practice law? What should we expect next?
SILVERMAN: Well, we're going to have a press conference tomorrow morning by the Boulder DA.
I don't think this was a spur-of-the moment decision. This is a make-or-break, career-making-or-breaking case for Mary Lacy. She knows what she's doing. I expect we won't see any delay in the filing of charges. And I expect she's going to set forth a lot of the evidence. The affidavit in support of the arrest is eventually going to come out. Why not put it out there tomorrow?
FOREMAN: All right. Craig Silverman, Jeffrey Toobin, good to see you all again, 10 years after...
SILVERMAN: Good to see you.
FOREMAN: ... we started on this story, picking it up again.
The case of JonBenet Ramsey has been exhaustive and expensive. Here's the "Raw Data."
Officials have spent more than $2 million investigating this murder. The police alone compiled at least 30,000 pages of evidence. Dozens of witnesses were questioned. And the grand jury had the case for 13 months, quite a while. In the end, no indictments came out of that grand jury.
But that didn't stop many people from pointing the finger at JonBenet's parents. John and Patsy Ramsey spent years trying to clear their names.
Coming up, one of the country's top criminal profilers will tell us why he has long believed that the Ramseys were innocent.
Plus, the suspect at the center of the story in Georgia, we will hear from someone who knows him -- all of that ahead on 360.
Stick with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOOD: They have always had confidence that this day would occur. Knowing the evidence and knowing them, I have shared that confidence. I'm not sure that any of us were actually prepared for the phone call. So, it has been an emotional day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Comments earlier today from Lin Wood, an attorney for John Ramsey.
Some additional developments are breaking at this moment out of Thailand. According to the Associated Press, the head of Thailand's immigration police is telling them, he expects that American authorities will be taking John Mark Karr back to the U.S. within the next couple of days.
More now on the rest of tonight's unlikely, but electrifying headline.
John Douglas is one of the country's top criminal profilers and authors on the subject. An FBI veteran, he was hired by the Ramseys, and soon came to believe in their innocence.
He joins us tonight from Fredericksburg, Virginia.
Thanks for being here.
Why did you believe... JOHN DOUGLAS, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR FOR JOHN RAMSEY AND PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, thank you.
FOREMAN: ... the Ramseys were innocent?
DOUGLAS: When I go into any case, I have a formula. Why, plus how equals who.
And -- and when I started looking at the why, which is the motivation, I couldn't find a -- a single motive that would cause the Ramseys to kill their daughter.
There are certainly plenty of cases -- and I have worked hundreds of them over the years -- where family members have been responsible for their -- the deaths of their children.
But, in this case, certainly, when I started looking at it, and I started to look to see how this child was murdered, it was brutal. It -- it was a sadistic murder. I -- the public at large wasn't aware of this. The media wasn't aware of it.
And, right away, they started coming down on the -- the Ramsey families. So, after four days, I -- I believed, wholeheartedly, the families had nothing to do with this case; the police and -- and other agencies were barking up the wrong tree.
And I received a lot of criticism as a result of my analysis.
FOREMAN: John, let me come back to that in a moment.
I -- I want to ask something about -- about this notion of eliminating everything except for the motive. One of the problems at the time that I distinctly remember that investigators talked to us about is, they said, we can't quite get the motive, but everything else points to the Ramseys.
How can that have so much weight on it?
DOUGLAS: It's -- it's a false statement.
The -- the -- everything, in my opinion, pointed away from the Ramseys. The way that this child was murdered was -- was brutal. She was garroted. She was -- she died of a combination of ligature strangulation. After her -- she was garroted, she was on her last breath. Her heart was beating for the last time. The subject still felt compelled to punish this child by striking her in the head, cracking her skull, eight-and-a-half inches.
And we didn't see that until the autopsy was -- was performed. These are not the types of cases -- parents kill, but they don't have this kind of look to them.
And the other thing, the crime scene itself was -- was -- if a family kills, they generally soften the crime scene afterwards. This crime scene was not softened. She was garroted. Her...
FOREMAN: When you say soften the crime scene...
(CROSSTALK)
DOUGLAS: ... duct tape...
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: ... what do you mean?
DOUGLAS: The crime scene where -- in the wine cellar, when John Ramsey was told to go down in the basement with his neighbor to -- to see if anything was amiss, he walks in -- into the wine cellar, sees this child on -- on her back, hands over her head, tied together, a piece of tape across her -- her mouth.
It didn't even look -- we couldn't even see any bruising at that time, until the autopsy was -- was performed. This was not a softening of the crime scene at all. And this was -- like I said, parents kill, but they don't -- it does not have this flavor to it.
And the other thing had to do with the note itself. There was a three-and-a-half-page note. And the police got it wrong. Investigators are wrong in their analysis. And what I said was that, whoever is responsible for the murder, if we think it's the Ramseys, you think it's some other unsub, unknown subject, they would not have had the presence of mind to kill the way they killed, and then sit there and write a three-and-a-half-page letter, and then draw in and bring in different -- different accounts from different movies, like the movie "Speed" and "Dirty Harry" and "Kidnap."
And that's -- those, literally, were statements in there that was included in the ransom note.
FOREMAN: In the language of this note.
DOUGLAS: That -- that...
FOREMAN: Yes. What -- let me ask you...
DOUGLAS: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: ... about something that you -- you raised early on.
You raised the notion that you thought it was somebody who had some sort of personal vendetta or personal problem with John Ramsey, perhaps. Why did you think that? And do you still have any suspicion that that's connected to this?
DOUGLAS: I just could -- could not understand why, if the -- the -- why she was killed the way she was killed.
I mean, the -- the child was pretty much dead through the garrote, through ligature strangulation. It showed beyond what was...
FOREMAN: He put a cord around her neck. He tightened it until she was dying, and then he struck her?
DOUGLAS: Right, struck her.
And, before he even did that, he sexually assaulted her, and probably with a broken paintbrush handle that belonged to Mrs. Ramsey. And, right away, the -- the investigators were jumping on that, that she did that. There's -- there's no way. And, so, she was sexually assaulted.
And, then, we had DNA. And, when I did my analysis, in -- in -- in 1997, I said, they're going to find DNA, but it's not going to be semen. It will probably be something like saliva mixed in with the blood. And it was my understanding, when the -- the new prosecutor brought me out several years ago to assist them now, took me way from the defense team. And I assisted the prosecution. And I laid out the case to her, and that they did not do it and gave my reasons why. And she was agreeing with me...
(CROSSTALK)
DOUGLAS: ... that they should have gone in another direction.
FOREMAN: Very quickly here, do you feel more relieved that it has finally reached a conclusion now, more vindicated that it -- it went the way you thought it would, or just glad that maybe it's closer to being over?
DOUGLAS: I'm glad it's over.
I'm -- I'm sorry that Mrs. Ramsey passed away, and could not see the -- the arrest being made here. I think one of the worst things I -- I ever would see in my life is when a -- parents lose a child. But now, what -- what is -- was worse than that was to be falsely accused of killing your child. That -- that was heart-wrenching for me.
FOREMAN: A terrible series of events, all the way around.
John Douglas, thanks so much for joining us.
We will have...
DOUGLAS: Thank you.
FOREMAN: ... more details on the arrest in the JonBenet Ramsey case, coming up.
First, some of the other stories we're following tonight in a "360 Bulletin."
A major drug kingpin, long suspected of running one of the world's most powerful drug cartels, is in U.S. custody tonight. Reputed Mexican drug lord Javier Arellano-Felix was deep-sea fishing off the coast of southern Baja California, when the Coast Guard caught him. Authorities say he was wanted for leading a violent gang bearing his name that is responsible for at least 20 murders in the U.S. and Mexico. Authorities say an unruly passenger on a United Airlines flight is being held overnight in Boston, and will likely face federal criminal charges tomorrow.
The 60-year-old woman, who has not been identified, is being detained for interfering with the flight crew. The plane was en route from London to Dulles Airport outside Washington, D.C., when it was diverted to Boston, after the woman was described as becoming so claustrophobic, that she had to be restrained. The flight eventually did make it to Washington.
Scientists have discovered that a germ rarely seen outside of hospitals 10 years ago has now become so common that it appears to cause more than half of all skin infections treated in U.S. emergency rooms. The germ is a staph bacteria known as the superbug. Once doctors detect it, it can be treated with antibiotics.
And politicians and baseball -- officials broke ground on a new Yankee Stadium today in New York. Construction officially began on the stadium, which is scheduled to open in 2009. The stadium will cost more than $1 billion to build. And the Yankees can afford it.
More on the fast-breaking investigation into the murder of JonBenet Ramsey coming up -- you will hear from someone who knows the man who's suspected of committing the crime.
And what kind of person kills a child? Forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz provides some insights. All of that's coming up right here on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOREMAN: Back now to our top story, the breathtaking break in the JonBenet Ramsey case. An American has been arrested in Thailand. His extradition is expected in days, according to the Associated Press.
Joining us now from outside the former Ramsey home in Boulder, Colorado, is Vida Urbonas from Denver affiliate KWGN. Tell me what is happening tonight. I don't think you were in Denver 10 years ago when I was standing outside of that house. And this whole town was shaken by it.
VIDA URBONAS, KWGN: Yes. Tonight we're getting a lot of cars driving by the former Ramsey house. If you can see behind me, it is empty once again. This house has been on and off the market ever since the murder nearly a decade ago.
And the feeling that we're getting here tonight up in Boulder, this is just a few blocks from the university. The feeling we're getting here is a sense of release -- relief that is.
Basically, it's part of the shocking story that spanned the globe, the murder of a 6-year-old beauty queen found dead in the basement of her Boulder home, this home behind me, the day after Christmas back in 1996. Now nearly a decade later, as you mentioned, federal authorities make an arrest on the other side of the world, a former second grader teacher, 41-year-old John Mark Karr.
Now, the Boulder district attorney says he was arrested early this morning in Thailand on unrelated sex charges. While the specifics on the arrest remain unclear, federal authorities say Boulder police used the Internet, we are learning, to track Karr and the Ramsey family lawyer says Karr once lived in Conyers, Georgia. That's not far from Atlanta where the Ramseys now live.
John Ramsey says his wife, Patsy, was aware that a suspect was being investigated before her death from cancer this past June. The parents always maintained their innocence.
But with the arrest, John Ramsey says, don't rush to judgment, because that's what happened when he and his wife became the focus of the investigation nearly a decade ago.
We do not -- we do know the Boulder Valley School District tells us tonight that John Clark did not work here in the Boulder Valley School District. And the Ramseys aren't saying whether they knew him directly, but we do know that we are told that he did live in California at one point. And that he did live in Georgia. He was a second grade schoolteacher in Georgia, and he was arrested today in Thailand.
FOREMAN: Vida, do you have the sense from people you talked to around there this evening that people are convinced that this is the smoking gun in this, or after all these years, are people saying, well, let's just see?
URBONAS: No, I think people are convinced at this point. The people that I've spoke to today. Everyone is, just like I mentioned before, it's kind of like a sigh of relief.
And you know, for years and years this street has, you know, been kind of like the sight that people drive up and down. And tonight people are out on the streets. They're out behind me. People are driving by.
Early on in the investigation, early on in the stages, reports came out against the Ramseys. A lot of speculation that the Ramseys were behind this.
But over the years they really worked hard to basically prove their innocence. They took several lie detectors tests. They were investigated by a grand jury, and they were cleared on that. They released information that the DNA found on little JonBenet's underwear was not linked to anybody in the family, nor anybody that the family knew. So...
FOREMAN: I know a lot of people there in Boulder always really believed them, too.
URBONAS: Yes, they did. Early on I think, you know, as I think probably, you know, the United States and the world kind of speculated with all the reports coming out.
But what I've noticed over time, -- I grew up here in Colorado and went to the University of Colorado. Over time a lot of people started to really believe the Ramseys. And right away -- when Patsy Ramsey passed away back in June, a lot of people rallied around her, and a lot of people said they felt so sorry for her and what she had to go through and that she had to die essentially just not knowing what happened to her daughter.
FOREMAN: Tragic story. Vida, thank you so much. University of Colorado not far at all from the Ramsey home. You could walk there easily. Thanks for your time.
URBONAS: It's about -- it's about three blocks.
FOREMAN: Inside the mind of a child killer. Straight ahead, we're going to talk to forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz about what kind of person could have committed the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.
And in Lebanon, a delicate balancing act as the Lebanese army attempts to take control of the Hezbollah-run south. Will that succeed? We're live in the region when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOREMAN: What kind of person would kill a child so brutally this way on Christmas night? That's what so many of us have asked for 10 years. Few know more about the answers, the who's and why's and how's of killers than forensic psychologist Park Dietz. He joins us now from California.
Thanks so much for being here. When you hear about the nature of this crime, what kind of person does this?
PARK DIETZ, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think anyone familiar and experienced with crimes like this would say that from the autopsy data alone, what was done to this young girl, the odds are extremely high that the killer is a male who was a pedophile, who was sexually sadistic and who has something else wrong with him, too, probably his personality, maybe drugs.
FOREMAN: Is he the kind of person who would do this more than once?
DIETZ: Well, he's the kind of person who would fantasize about doing this all the time, from the time that he was an adolescent until the time he's no longer interested in sex. How often he does it depends on a host of things. Stresses in his life, opportunities, the odds of getting away with it, and his character.
FOREMAN: What differentiates the child predator from the adult sexual predator? Why does one focus on children and commit horrible crimes such as this and others focus on adults?
DIETZ: Well, understand that there are two different things going on here. The first is a sexual interest in children. No one has an interest in children except a pedophile for sex.
Once in a while, for other reasons, people will molest a child, but generally a child this age is of interest only to pedophiles. Most pedophiles think of themselves as gentle and aren't trying to harm the child, aren't interested in torturing or killing the child, but if the person also has the separate problem of sexual sadism, those things become of interest.
FOREMAN: I would think that this type of person is really quite rare.
DIETZ: Well, they've been around throughout history, and thankfully, they are quite unusual. And they tend to create enormous public outrage. They often generate new legislation and cause a new round of fear against sex offenders, because what they do is so shocking and horrible.
FOREMAN: I would also think that their crime, by comparison, is much harder to cover up.
DIETZ: Well, it's very hard for them to get away with it, because once one has tortured any victim of any age, the odds are pretty high that the victim is going to talk.
FOREMAN: What does it tell you about this particular crime if, in fact, this was an outsider, this man who's been arrested? What does it tell you about the calculating nature of this person to come into a home on Christmas night and to murder a child in this way while her parents slept above?
DIETZ: We can be sure that someone doing that would have thought about it long and hard, fantasized about it, chosen the moment, relished the thought of it, had it all planned out, and gave himself a Christmas present.
FOREMAN: A horrifying, horrifying thing to think of Park Dietz, thank you for your time and your insights here.
John Mark Karr, the man we're talking about now, the suspect in custody tonight for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, was arrested in Bangkok, a world away from Boulder, Colorado, where the 6-year-old girl was killed.
Details about Karr are very slowly emerging. We don't know much about him specifically.
CNN's Randi Kaye, however, has found someone in Georgia who knows him. And she's standing by in Sandy Springs outside Atlanta.
Randi, what do you know?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Tom.
Well, we are standing right outside, actually, the former home of John Mark Karr. He lived here, neighbors tell us, for quite some time. He moved away about eight years ago. We knocked on the home. There were a couple of lights on. We knocked on the door there. His father, his 85-year-old father and his brother still live here. They weren't home. But we did speak to his brother, Nate, earlier tonight. In response to his brother John's arrest, he told us this whole thing is ridiculous.
I did speak to a neighbor about John Karr just a short time ago. She used to actually sell him Girl Scout cookies. She knew him quite well. She sold him the cookies and some other things from her school.
And here's what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIKA SCHOLZ, KARR NEIGHBOR: Seemed really out of character. I know I haven't seen him in a while, but it was not something I expected. I was, like, do they have the right guy? This is -- I mean, I was younger. I mean, I came to his house when I was younger, and I sold everything to him along the lines of, like, cookies and everything. And he never striked (sic) me as anything who I wasn't comfortable -- he's never, of course, never invited me into his house for coffee or tea or anything, but he was just a great guy and, like, was always really polite. And like I said, it just seemed out of character.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: The Ramseys also have a history here. John Ramsey, JonBenet's father, still lives in the Atlanta area. And they actually lived here before they moved to Boulder, before JonBenet's death. And they moved back here after she died.
JonBenet is buried here. She's buried next to her sister, who died just a few years before her in a car accident. And now Patsy Ramsey, after dying, passing away this June from cancer, is also buried next to them. And they are all at the St. James Cemetery in Marietta not very far from this home, actually, where the suspect once lived.
And today a family friend left a note on Patsy Ramsey's grave. And I just want to share what it said with you. It said, "Dear Patsy, justice has come for you and Jon. Rest in peace, your friend, Lib Waters."
Now Patsy -- Patsy Ramsey's sister was also speaking out tonight from Georgia. She -- it's important to remember that this family has waited 10 years for some answers. They are very ecstatic. In fact, they are celebrating.
Of course, it's also important to point out that these are just charges. Nobody has been convicted here.
But this is what Pam Paugh had to say earlier to CNN. She said, "In my mind, there was never any need for vindication," talking about the suspicion that surrounded her sister and John Ramsey. She says, "Because I knew from the depths of my heart that Patsy, John, no one in the family ever harmed JonBenet. We've lived on that truth, stood on that truth, and now the facts are going to bear it out."
So once again, these are just charges. But Tom, we can see that both sides in this case are already taking a very strong stand.
FOREMAN: Thanks so much. Randi Kaye in Georgia.
More insight on this case, the suspect, the arrest on the other side of the globe and all the latest developments are coming up. Stick with us.
And the other big story we're following tonight, the ceasefire in the Middle East. Peacekeeping troops are on the move tonight. We'll go back to Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOREMAN: There is a great deal going on today with these fast developments in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. We're going to have much more on that as the evening goes on.
But we want to check in on the other big story we're following with Wolf Blitzer over in Jerusalem -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Tom.
Israeli troops have begun handing over territory they hold in Southern Lebanon to the United Nations. And in about an hour, the first of some 15,000 Lebanese army troops will start moving into the southern part of the country, their country.
It's all part of the ceasefire plan the U.N. Security Council approved last week that ended 34 days of bloodshed between Israel and Hezbollah.
CNN's Beirut bureau chief, Brent Sadler, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lebanese army troops may have been assigned an impossible mission: to take control of battle-scarred territory in South Lebanon where Hezbollah guerrillas have roamed freely for six years.
Under a complex military plan, as Israeli troops vacate positions under a phased withdrawal, United Nations forces will take over. The U.N. would then hand over responsibility to Lebanese troops, a process that could take weeks or months.
Lebanon's cabinet decided to go ahead with the plan after days of uncertainty because of Hezbollah objections, especially to U.N. demands that Hezbollah's fighters give up their weapons and disappear from the battle zones.
FOUAD SINIORA, LEBANESE PRIME MINISTER: There won't be any weapons other than the weapons of the central government. SADLER: But in its final decision, the Lebanese cabinet ministers, including two from Hezbollah, avoided a definition of what would happen to Hezbollah fighters and their weapons now or in the future.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's all OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
SADLER: Lebanese president Emile Lahoud made this comment. "Hezbollah resistance weapons are the only weapons Arab opponents of Israel have," he said. He assured no one can disarm the resistance by force.
Most experts expect that Hezbollah fighters will mix in with the local population and hide their weapons as Lebanese and U.N. troops arrive. A vague compromise that may undermine international efforts to reinforce some 2,000 U.N. troops already in South Lebanon with a stronger, better equipped force. A key Israeli condition under the U.N. ceasefire resolution.
TZIPI LIVNI, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: I think that this is a moment of truth for the international community. A full implementation of Resolution 1701 can lead to a change in the region in Lebanon and lead to a better future for us all.
SADLER: Turkey could also be a key troop contributor. But involved nations like these may have second thoughts about sending troops to a war zone where a low profile, but still armed Hezbollah, is a threat.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: But Brent, what are the rules of engagement for both sides now in this new environment?
SADLER: Well, Wolf, this fact that Hezbollah will remain armed and present is really going to be a complicating factor for those U.N. troops. We'll have a mandate to use all necessary force if facing hostile actions.
What does that mean? Does that mean if Hezbollah keeps weapons in stockpiles, in bunkers, is that hostile action? Do the U.N. troops then go and root it out, destroy those weapons, perhaps go after Hezbollah operatives in the field? These are vagaries that really the contributing troop nations for the expanded U.N. mission are going to look at very carefully.
Now, the French, Wolf, are expected to lead the mission. And it is understood from Lebanese officials close to what's happening, that the French really want to nail down, to button, if you like, the rules of engagement so that there are not difficulties, very big difficulties, lying ahead in terms of how this force will relate, not only to Hezbollah, but also to the Israelis, who are only going to be a few miles away from the blue line, or the border, once they withdraw -- Wolf. BLITZER: And as you know, Brent, there are a lot of suggestions that these Hezbollah fighters south of the Litani River in Southern Lebanon simply are going to blend right into the general population, put their guns someplace, and save their -- save their firepower, if you will, for another day.
SADLER: Absolutely right, Wolf. I mean, I know the area very well. I've been down there for the past few years, on and off. You don't see Hezbollah weapons. You didn't see rockets. You didn't see fighters. They were already disappearing. They were already an invisible force.
And, in effect, that will remain the same after this deployment of the Lebanese troops. That's supposed to happen anytime now. The first elements will move south of the Litani.
So it really is going to be a question of who sticks to the agreement and to what extent?
BLITZER: Brent Sadler in Beirut, thank you.
And there's dramatic new charges tonight about the Middle East conflict, how it started and questions about whether the United States was involved. We'll speak to the investigative reporter behind the charges and find out if Israel was planning to take out Hezbollah even before those two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped.
Plus, a mystery solved? JonBenet Ramsey dead for nearly 10 years. Tonight, a suspect accused of killing her is behind bars. All the latest developments when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Tonight, a bombshell accusation about the war in the Middle East. And it comes from a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist.
Seymour Hersh of "The New Yorker" magazine says the White House wasn't just watching the battle unfold; it may have been helping Israel against Hezbollah. I spoke to Seymour Hersh earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Sy Hersh, you've written a powerful article. It's really generating a huge commotion here in the Middle East and Israel in the Arab world.
For those of our viewers who haven't read it, the bottom line is what, that the United States fully not only cooperated with Israel but was in on it with Israel, the launching of this -- these air strikes against Hezbollah after July 12 when those two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped.
SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER": Yes. And of course, what happened happened. They were kidnapped, and that was the reason Israel went. But the reason it went so big is that there had been a lot of talk about doing something about Hezbollah in a major way for months with -- in coordination between Israel and the United States.
Both air forces -- Halutz (ph) is a believer in strategic bombing and the American Air Force is a believer in strategic bombing and the Cheney office, the vice president's office, also another believer in strategic bombing.
BLITZER; Here in Israel, what they're saying is -- and I got this from pretty high sources -- that yes, the Bush administration clearly from day one, July 12, supported Israel and provided Israel with military assistance, as they always do, but there was no coordination in advance. That's what they're suggesting.
HERSH: Well, coordination may be too strong. But what there was, was a definite feeling by Cheney and some of this, what we call the neoconservatives, that once Israel smashed Hezbollah with -- by air, and that was the idea, hit the infrastructure first, bomb -- bomb, you know, the runways in Beirut and some of the city structures so that the population of Beirut, the Christians and the Sunnis, would turn against Hezbollah, why that would be a model for what they really think -- the only plan they have for Iran.
Whether they're going to go to Iran or not, I don't know. But I do know there's intensive planning and intensive debate in the Pentagon whether or not you can take out Iran by air.
So this would have been a step in the right direction. As I quote somebody saying, it was seen as a demo.
BLITZER: Let me quote from the article. Because this is a major point in the piece in "The New Yorker". You write that Israel's bombing campaign -- and I'll quote here -- "also served as a prelude to a potential American preemptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations, some of which are also buried deep underground."
I want you to explain to our viewers what -- the point that you're trying to make, because by all accounts, the Iranians are working to build a nuclear bomb, and by all accounts, the United States, the Europeans, the rest of the world, the Russians, the Chinese, want to impose sanctions to try to convince the Iranian government not to do it. But what you're saying is that there are contingency plans to take out those sites.
HERSH: Absolutely. The problem is, those sites are dug in. Iran's been digging, you know, for a dozen centuries underground, the Persians. They're dug in way underground.
And one of the things our intelligence believes in terms of Hezbollah is this, Wolf. Once Syria was kicked out of Lebanon, under pressure from the United States, the U.N. and France, at that point, it was clear Hezbollah was next.
So for the last 18 months, Iran has been doing an awful lot of high-level technical work with Hezbollah, teaching them how to dig deeper, teaching them how to protect, get their command and control facilities deeper. So they were a very formidable target. Iran was helping a great deal in helping Nasrallah survive. So the idea is if Hezbollah could be gotten by the air, there was a lot of things to learn by bombing Hezbollah and taking out its facilities. And you needed to know how to do it, because to turn to Iran, which is a much more formidable target, this would be an enormous asset.
BLITZER: Despite all the denials coming across the board, you're sticking by your story?
SEYMOUR: I know more than I did three days ago.
BLITZER: The Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist Sy Hersh. Thanks very much for joining us.
HERSH: Always.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And straight ahead, what police are now looking for as they try to piece together the alleged bomb plot against U.S. airliners.
And later, the stunning developments today in the JonBenet Ramsey case. But also, the questions remaining, even with a suspect in custody. That's next on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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