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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Busted in Bangkok; The Polygrapher; A Father's Reaction; Cracking the Case; Vindication?; In Their Own Words; Iraq Body Count; Looking for Clues; 9/11 Calls for Help; 9/11 Hero Found
Aired August 16, 2006 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: A murder that riveted the nation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET: This $100,000 reward is for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the killer of our daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Unsolved for nearly a decade. Now an arrest halfway around the world. Has JonBenet's killer finally been caught?
Mideast cease-fire, day three. Scrambling to keep the peace from crumbling.
Connecting the dots, 24 suspects, one chilling terror plot, and the e-mails that may provide the smoking gun.
This is a special edition of ANDERSON COOPER 360. In for Anderson tonight, Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We've got the answer to a 5-year-old mystery. Who was the anonymous Marine who saved lives at Ground Zero then vanished?
First, though, what could turn out to be a major, major development in a 10-year mystery. Who killed JonBenet Ramsey?
For that, let's check in with CNN's Tom Foreman. He's back in Washington -- Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you Wolf.
It is the cold case of all cold cases. Who strangled JonBenet Ramsey and fractured her skull on Christmas night nearly a decade ago?
The country took her to heart. For years suspicion fell upon her parents. Today, though, a shift of almost seismic proportions. An arrest.
More now from CNN's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN BREAKING NEWS)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We don't know a lot about the alleged suspect in the killing of JonBenet Ramsey, but what we are told about him is chilling.
Law enforcement officials say John Mark Karr is a former school teacher. Arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, notorious for its sex trade and for child prostitution. A U.S. citizen, aged 41, he apparently moved around a lot, and we know he's now the suspect in one of the great unsolved mysteries of the last 10 years, the gruesome murder of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey.
LIN WOOD, JOHN RAMSEY'S ATTORNEY: I received a telephone call this morning from Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy (ph) informing me that, in fact, John Mark Karr had been arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, and charged with the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.
ARENA: Law enforcement sources say Karr confessed to parts of the crime and that he was in contact with someone in Boulder, Colorado, about JonBenet, someone who was working with law enforcement.
And how did they find Karr? The Boulder D.A.'s office says it took several months and that the investigation was focused and complex. The arrest of joint operation between investigators from the Boulder D.A.'s office and Thai police.
JonBenet's father, John Ramsey, said he didn't know Karr, but that authorities had clued him and his wife, Patsy, in on the investigation. And he said that Patsy knew they were on the trail before she died of cancer in June.
John Ramsey, once under suspicion himself for the killing, got the news this morning, and CNN affiliate KUSA got an exclusive interview.
JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: Based on what happened to us, I don't think it's proper that we speculate or discuss the case. I think it's important that justice be allowed to run its course and do its job.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: Kelli, you have suggested that, without giving away details, that your sources say the back story on this, how they got this guy is pretty amazing.
ARENA: That's what I've been told, Tom. Unfortunately, I don't know all the details, and hopefully we'll get more from Boulder, Colorado, District Attorney's Office. But they say that the trail that led to him and the investigation that followed is pretty compelling.
FOREMAN: Do they give any hint as to whether or not this was something that was developed and proceeded after as law enforcement does, or was there an element of luck here? This guy fell into something where they were able to find out more about him? Do you have any idea?
ARENA: You know that the online communications that he is alleged to have had, that investigators say were so pivotal in this case, I think, will give us that answer, Tom. I'm not exactly sure what led to what, but it does seem like there was some bit of luck involved, if he was, you know, messaging away.
FOREMAN: Yes, if was writing away out there. Kelli Arena, always terrific work. Thank you so much.
ARENA: Thank you.
FOREMAN: Fair to say that never in a million years did we expect a break in the Ramsey case, let alone that the breaking question, a blockbuster, would come in Thailand, of all places. Now that's the way it sometimes works and in cases. And in this case, if the charges are true, the location could be telling.
Simon Montlake is a reporter for "Time" magazine, and he joins us on the phone now from Bangkok.
Simon, what can you tell us about what's happening there?
SIMON MONTLAKE, "TIME" MAGAZINE REPORTER: I'm standing in front of the immigration center in Bangkok now. And the suspect, we're told, was brought here late on Wednesday night, Bangkok time, and is being held. And so far we are told that he may have overstayed on a visa or commit some immigration offense. But It is not clear whether there is any other outstanding charges against him under Thai jurisdiction. And we're expecting to get more details in the next few hours -- Tom.
FOREMAN: So the Thai police are not actually interested in him for any particular crime other than perhaps sort of an administrative crime?
MONTLAKE: Well, it appears that the cooperation with the U.S. police is what has led them to this man and the tip off to lead to the arrest. So rather than him being hunted down for something he's done in Thailand, we believe that he is pretty much in the clear here. However, it's very likely there are immigration offenses that he could be brought up on. And they seem quite keen to turn him over to U.S. custody as soon as possible -- Tom.
FOREMAN: One of the things, obviously, everybody has been asking about here today has been the location, Thailand, a country known for a very active sex trade and a very active sex trade that involves very young children. Any hint from the authorities there about any connection to that with this man?
MONTLAKE: Well, there were earlier reports that he was being held on unrelated sex offenses. However, we were told this morning by a Thai official that that's not the case and that they have nothing of that sort against him.
As you say, of course, there is a large population of tourists and some people do come here for that purpose. So, it wouldn't be surprising, but so far the Thai police are telling us no, that's not why we arrested him. It's in cooperation with U.S. authorities, and that we've got their man, and he's here right now.
FOREMAN: Very briefly, you say you're outside the building where he is right now. Is there a sense of exactly how soon he will come out presumably in cuffs or something and be on his way to the United States?
MONTLAKE: Well, the word this morning was that he could be turned over in a matter of 24 hours or so. The U.S. authorities in Thailand are, we believe, either inside now questioning him or on the way here right now. And they'll want to, you know, narrow down their investigation and make sure they have everything in order.
But as far as the Thai police are concerned, is he very much ready to go, and that could happen within the next day or so.
FOREMAN: It would be fascinating to be in on that conversation.
Simon Montlake, thanks so much, with "Time" magazine.
Ed Gelb is a past president of the American Polygraph Association. Not only does he have vast experience giving polygraph exams, but he's got plenty of experience giving them to the Ramseys. They hired him. Mr. Gelb joins us now from southern California.
Mr. Gelb, what was your reaction to this news today?
ED GELB, ADMINISTERED RAMSEY POLYGRAPH TEST: I was absolutely ecstatic. Without being involved in a rush to judgment, it's been 10 long years since JonBenet was killed. And when I became involved in the case and polygraphed both Patsy and John, I was convinced and my polygraph was convinced that they were completely innocent. There was no deception indicated.
FOREMAN: You polygraphed them five times, I'm told. And what were the five separate tests for?
GELD: For Patsy, there were three separate examinations. One dealt with whether she inflicted the blows that caused the death of JonBenet. One examination asked her whether she knew who killed JonBenet. And the third examination dealt with the ransom note. John Ramsey was tested on whether he killed JonBenet and whether he knew who killed JonBenet.
FOREMAN: And all of the results on everything came back negative?
GELD: Conclusively truthful. Those polygraph charts were then quality controlled, blind scored by the pioneer of the industry, Cleev Baxter (ph), who independently corroborated my findings.
FOREMAN: Why did the Ramseys -- I know from covering this one of the issues was that the Ramseys hired you. And many people were saying, why didn't they just walk into the police or the state police or the FBI and say, you're independent. Check us out. Not somebody who they paid.
GELB: Well, a couple of reasons. One, I don't think their attorney, Lin Wood, completely trusted the government. He had had an experience with the Atlanta bombing, and I think he was a little gun shy. But you can ask Lin Wood about that.
FOREMAN: You're talking about Lin Wood, the attorney for the Ramseys, or for John Ramsey?
GELB: That's correct.
Secondly, my expertise is probably greater than that of the people that you're speaking about who might have conducted the examination. I've been in the polygraph field since 1968. I'm the past president of the American Polygraph Association. And I stopped counting at 20,000 polygraph examinations. Why not hire an expert like me to resolve this issue?
FOREMAN: Why did they take the lie detector test at all? Do you think this was to advance the case, or was it mainly to quiet the public? Do you have any sense with that?
GELB: Well, certainly there was a media frenzy every time John or Patsy came into the public. And I think there were hopes that the police, knowing the results of the examination, would double their efforts and find out who killed JonBenet.
FOREMAN: All right. Thank you so much, Mr. Gelb, joining us from southern California with your expertise in all of this.
This case may be solved, but sadly, children continue to fall victim to violent crime all the time. Here's the raw data on that.
In 2004, 768 children under the age of 13 were murdered in the U.S. -- 176 were infants under the age of 1; 328 were between 1 and 4 years old. And 73 of the victims were between 5 and 8 years old.
If she were alive, JonBenet Ramsey would be 16 years old now. Imagine that. Today her father, John Ramsey, finally got the news he'd been hoping to hear for nearly a decade.
Coming up, more of his reaction to the stunning break in this case. Plus, how DNA tests that cleared family members of the crime three years ago might factor into the case against the suspect now in custody. We'll talk to our roundtable of experts. You don't want to miss it. All of that when this special edition of 360 returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOREMAN: This father, John Ramsey, has been waiting for a break in his daughter's murder case for nearly 10 years. He and his wife, Patsy, spent much of that time trying to clear their name. Patsy Ramsey recently died. So today her husband spoke for both of them.
Paula Woodward is a longtime and much respected reporter at CNN Affiliate KUSA in Denver. She's covered the story from the very beginning. She interviewed John Ramsey today after the arrest had been made public, and here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA WOODWARD, KUSA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Your wife, Patsy, died in June of complications from ovarian cancer. Did she know about this?
J. RAMSEY: She knew that they were working very diligently on it and that they had a suspect and that they were in the process of locating him. Yes, she did.
WOODWARD: You have three children. How are they reacting to this?
J. RAMSEY: Well, I've talked to them. And they're thankful that this step has been taken. But I've told them the same thing that, you know, we need to be observers and let the proper justice system evolve.
WOODWARD: Without identifying the suspect, did you know the suspect?
J. RAMSEY: I really can't comment on that. To my knowledge, no, I didn't. But I don't know enough yet.
WOODWARD: How long has this been in process?
J. RAMSEY: Well, I think ever since the Boulder District Attorney took the case over in 2000 or 2001, an effort has been under way to follow up leads and respond to information.
So in a sense, it's been ongoing for the last four or five years. But I think intensely, the last three or four months.
WOODWARD: Do you know if this man contacted the Boulder D.A.'s office?
J. RAMSEY: I don't know.
WOODWARD: Mary Lacy, the Boulder County D.A., took this case over after she was elected and has proceeded very vigorously on it. Your thoughts about her efforts.
J. RAMSEY: Well, I think what they have accomplished and the manner in which they have acted ought to be a role model for all police agencies. They have done a remarkable job. They have been professional. They have not discussed the case or information and have just done their job, and they've done it extremely well. And extremely impressive. I can't say enough good things about her office and the investigators that she's had working on it. It's very, very impressive.
WOODWARD: Will you be coming to Boulder at any time in the near future?
J. RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. I'm certainly available to do that. But at this moment, I don't know. I certainly will do whatever is required of me.
WOODWARD: What was the hardest part for you and your wife during this whole ordeal since your daughter was murdered?
J. RAMSEY: Well, the hardest part was losing your child. And by far.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: I still just can't believe that we're seeing and hearing all of this today. A dramatic and potentially life-changing day for John Ramsey. That's what this is.
Joining me now are John Douglas, former FBI profiler and investigator who worked for the Ramsey family. CNN Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Craig Silverman, the former chief deputy D.A. in Denver. All of us worked together when this thing started in many ways looking at this case.
John, I want to start with you because you were so close to the family. You listened to what Mr. Ramsey had to say there. What are your thoughts about him at this moment?
JOHN DOUGLAS, FORMER FBI PROFILER: I have mixed emotions. I really -- my heart goes out to Mr. Ramsey as well as Mrs. Ramsey. It's a shame she isn't here to see the development in this case. They were victims. And that's one of the things, when I went out to analyze this case, within four or five days, I realized I wasn't dealing with suspects in this homicide and this brutal homicide of their daughter. I was dealing with victims. These were extended victims.
FOREMAN: Did you think they were suspects when you started?
DOUGLAS: Yes. I was called in, because I was getting -- hearing the same kinds of things through the press and reading the same kind of articles. And I went out there thinking that I'm going to break this case. I'm going to break it wide open. But once I started to conduct some interviews and with the medical examiner and getting different bits and pieces of information -- I didn't have all the information either. But I knew that once I determined how she was murdered, that the family was not responsible for this kind of murder.
They kill -- please, I've done so many cases where families are responsible, but in this case, it was brutal. It was brutal what was done to this child. It went far beyond just killing the child. It was revenge -- almost a vendetta in the method that she was killed.
FOREMAN: I want to get back in a moment to that and talk a little bit more about that. Because you've said things today I've never heard before about this case, really interesting. Just a moment on that.
Jeffrey Toobin, you were on this from the beginning too. Same question to you. Did you think it was the parents? JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they sure seemed like suspects. You know, it wasn't just the press who was making them suspects. You had law enforcement officials at times in public saying they were people of interest. So you couldn't help but think they were suspects. And the sad truth is, most children who are murdered are murdered by family members. It's an ugly thing to say, and it's a sad fact about our society, but it's true.
But we don't try cases, in general, we try them in specifics. And there were so many bizarre things about this trail, you know. A ransom note written on a pad that was already in the house. You know, what kidnapper comes into the house and then writes a ransom note? Whose handwriting was on the pad? That was extremely contested.
So certainly, I thought they were suspects, but I certainly understood why they weren't charged because there didn't seem to be enough evidence to charge them, much less convict them.
FOREMAN: Craig Silverman, you had an experience with being a prosecutor. Same thing, when you looked at this at the beginning, I'm thinking about many of the things Jeffrey's talking about there. There were so many questions. How could somebody get into the house without forcing their way in? How could they find their way through this big house? What kind of person would commit a crime like this with the parents asleep in their bedroom overhead, the brother, asleep down the hall?
Did those questions in the beginning make you say, it just couldn't have been an outsider?
CRAIG SILVERMAN, FORMER DENVER CHIEF DEPUTY D.A.: Well, when you look at the ransom note, there were lots of indications that there was knowledge of the Ramsey family. So there was a limited universe of suspects.
I was struck by John Ramsey's interview with Paula Woodward that perhaps he didn't know this guy, John Mark Karr, but it appears that Mr. Karr knew the Ramseys. And perhaps had taken a liking to JonBenet through the beauty pageant world or whatever prompted him.
I'll tell you what disturbed me about John and Patsy from the outset. As a prosecutor, when police present a case to you, you say, well, what do we know about these people? With John and Patsy, the truth is, they had no criminal history. There was no real black mark on their record. With John Mark Karr, it appears that he might have a checkered past. Past is prelude, and I think part of the evidence that will start to be revealed tomorrow is perhaps some similar offenses.
FOREMAN: John Douglas, let me come back to you because you mentioned earlier this thing -- I really have not heard that much about before today, maybe not at all.
You looked at the brutality of the crime itself. And what you saw up close was different than what we were all seeing from the outside about what had happened. Tell me briefly here what it was about the way this crime was committed that made you say these parents didn't do it.
DOUGLAS: Well, what I looked at, too, was the analysis that the Detective Thomas was giving here, that this was an accidental death, perhaps she -- JonBenet wet her bed, the mother gets angry, throws her on the floor. Now it's going to be this cover-up. It didn't go down that way.
Her skull, as I said, when it was cracked eight and a half inches, she was either on her last breath or her heart was beating for her last time when she was struck on the head, cracking her skull eight and a half inches. There was only a teaspoon of blood...
FOREMAN: She had been choked before, to make it clear for people who may not remember, she was being choked with a rope around her neck being tightened by a paintbrush handle, and you're saying she was nearly dead when the second -- when this blow to the head happened?
DOUGLAS: Yes, she was garroted. You couldn't even see the garrote in her throat. Her hands were tied over her head. She had a piece of duct tape over her mouth. The police, they were saying, well Douglas, his analysis is different here. This is staging. They staged the crime scene. No, this is not staging. When families kill, particularly, you'll oftentimes see a softening of the crime scene if they are involved. And that is to make the appearance of the body look very, very relaxed, very, very calm. That wasn't there.
And then they were suspicious of the father removing the duct tape. Because he probably put the duct tape on so he has his fingerprints on it. So he's going to obliterate that evidence, which is totally crazy in my opinion. As a father, the first thing I would have done to find my child in this wine cellar was to loosen the ligatures, remove the duct tape and try to bring this child back to life, which he attempted to do.
There were many other factors in the case that when I told the police, I said, you're barking up the wrong tree. The investigator, you should be going in a different direction. I was later brought out by the district attorney to assist the prosecution.
And Mary, the district attorney, last name was Keenan at the time before she got married, asked me, John, can you assist us now? And I did it -- went and did an analysis for the prosecution and assisted them.
FOREMAN: It's an amazing turnaround for you on that.
Craig Silverman, let me ask you something about that. He specifically is talking about the way this crime was presented to the public and what was actually happening at the scene of the crime at that time.
Would it have changed your opinion of this if we hadn't really known all of this, we had known more of the brutality of the crime itself? SILVERMAN: Well, we really did know about the brutality. That's been in the public purview for a long time.
FOREMAN: Yes, but you know what, though, Craig? I remember hearing, and I'm sure you did too, that exactly what was just said a moment ago was true, that John said there, that people said, yes, it was staged to make it look like something more than what it was. Yes, it was brutal, but that was a cover-up for something else.
SILVERMAN: Right. But there was some redressing of the child. There was the movement throughout that complicated house. And there was also so much to confuse the people. There was infighting between the police and the prosecutors. And even politicians got involved. Governor Roemer appointed a bunch of special prosecutors to get involved. Governor Bill Owens went on TV and more or less accused the Ramseys.
So there were all these sideshows, all these responsible people saying that the Ramseys were under an umbrella of suspicion. And I think a lot of people started to lock in an opinion, and even when Ed Gelb did the polygraph and the DNA came out, people were unwilling to take a new look at the case. I'm glad that Mary Lacy has.
FOREMAN: Let me take that to Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, you mention this had change in DNA technology around 2003, that that may play a role here.
TOOBIN: Oh, absolutely. Because, you know, what John Douglas is a legendary figure in American law enforcement, but what he does is deal with what generally would happen. And what you need, in addition to general theories, is specific evidence. And DNA evidence is the ultimate final evidence in any criminal case.
And, you know, JonBenet's underwear, obviously, had been seized when her body was found in 1996. But only seven years later, they did more advanced DNA tests and found some sort of residue of DNA pointing to an unknown male. Not a member...
FOREMAN: Will that be enough, though, Jeffrey? Will that be enough -- that certainly would clear the Ramseys.
TOOBIN: Yes, absolutely.
FOREMAN: Is it enough to trump all of the issues that were raised about this case early on, the way the police handled evidence, all the unanswered questions? Is that DNA enough, that if they have the right guy, to get a conviction?
TOOBIN: If the DNA evidence, you know the chain of custody can be established and the scientific bona fides of the testers can be established, if that ties to John Karr, game over, story over. He's going to be convicted. You know, that won't be the only evidence in the case.
No prosecutor brings a case that is just a medical test. Who is this guy? What is his access? Was he even in Boulder? We don't know that at this point. I mean, I expect tomorrow's press conference we'll learn at least somewhat more.
FOREMAN: We'll find out a lot more.
TOOBIN: But if there's a DNA match, that will trump anything else in the case.
FOREMAN: OK, Jeffrey Toobin, thanks so much for joining us.
Craig Silverman, and of course, John Douglas. We appreciate your expertise and your time.
FOREMAN: Up next, we'll head to where people know John Karr, the man accused of this crime now, and find out what they're saying. That and more of what the Ramseys have been saying over all these years in their own words, when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. RAMSEY: For a long time it has burned in my mind, and it was a horrible memory. And I tried to replace it with how I knew JonBenet when she was alive. And that's why I carry her picture. That's why -- and it's slowly fading. But it's still there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: JonBenet's father, John Ramsey, from "LARRY KING LIVE."
The JonBenet story is breaking on two continents tonight. Headlines from Thailand and all over the states are coming in. Boulder, Colorado, where the Ramseys once lived, and, of course, outside Atlanta where John Ramsey lives now. And so do the Karrs, the family of the man accused of this. That's where we find CNN's Randi Kaye -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello again, Tom. I am just outside the home of John Karr. This is where he used to live. Neighbors tell me he moved away about eight years ago. His father and brother Nate still live here. We got here tonight, and they were already gone. So they were unavailable for an interview.
But wd did speak with Nate earlier by phone. And he told us in response to his brother's arrest that this whole thing is ridiculous.
I also spoke with a neighbor tonight who knew John Karr quite well. She told me that the people in this neighborhood called the house the witch's house because the lights were hardly ever on. It was always very dark. She had also said that she used to sell him Girl Scouts cookies. And he was always a very nice guy. Here's more of what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ERIKA SCHOLZ, JOHN MARK KARR'S NEIGHBOR: Seems really out of character. I mean, I know I haven't seen him in a while, but it was not something I expected. I was, like, do they have the right guy? This is -- I mean, I was younger. I mean, I came to his house when I was younger, and I sold everything to him along the lines of, like, cookies and everything. He never striked me as anything, like, who I wasn't comfortable. He's never, of course, invited me into his house to have like coffee or tea or anything, but he was just a great guy and like was always really polite. And like I said, just seemed out of character.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: John and Patsy Ramsey lived in the Atlanta area before they moved to Boulder before their daughter's death. In fact, many of the family members are buried here in the Atlanta area.
We're in Sandy Springs, which is just about 30 minutes north of Atlanta. But JonBenet is buried at the St. James cemetery right alongside her sister who actually died a few years before her in a car accident. And when Patsy Ramsey passed away this past June, she, too, was buried at the St. James cemetery.
Today a family friend left a note at Patsy Ramsey's grave. And it reads, "Dear Patsy, Justice has come for you and John. Rest in peace. Your friend, Lib Waters."
We also heard tonight from Patsy Ramsey's sister, Pam Paugh. She is very excited about this arrest. She tells CNN, she called it a good, clean investigation. And then she had this to say about the suspicion that has been hanging over John and Patsy Ramsey now for a decade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM PAUGH, JONBENET RAMSEY'S AUNT: In my mind, there was never any need for vindication because I knew, from the depths of my heart, that Patsy, John, Burke, no one in my family ever harmed JonBenet. We've lived on that truth. We've stood on that truth. And now the facts are going to bear that out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Of course, it's very important that we point out tonight that these are just charges. This is the beginning of the investigation. Nobody has been convicted yet. But Tom, if they do have the right man, his family -- JonBenet's family is going to be very pleased.
FOREMAN: Thank you so much, Randi. Very quickly, how far is it from this house to where the house where the Ramseys live, roughly?
KAYE: That I couldn't tell you. I know that John Ramsey...
FOREMAN: More like half an hour or more like a couple hours?
KAYE: Oh, no. I would say about a half an hour at the most.
FOREMAN: Not terribly far, then. Thanks so much, Randi Kaye in Georgia tonight. We sure appreciate it.
You heard a sample of it a moment ago, the double agony of the parents and family of JonBenet Ramsey. Mourning her death and suspected of her murder. The Ramseys in their own words. That's coming up.
And overseas in London, the alleged plot to blow several airliners out of the sky. Police are working furiously there to gather evidence to bring charges.
This is 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIN WOOD, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN RAMSEY: John and Patsy Ramsey have never, as I understand their feelings, felt that they needed to be vindicated. I mean, they have known from day one that they were not involved in the brutal murder of their daughter. They understood why they were going to be investigated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Lin Wood, an attorney for John Ramsey. For Patsy and John Ramsey, the murder of their daughter, JonBenet, was just the beginning of an awful nightmare. You can't even imagine it.
Six years ago, the Ramseys appeared on "LARRY KING LIVE." It was March 27, 2000, four years after they had buried their daughter. And here they are in their own words.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
J. RAMSEY: I felt like I had been kicked by a horse, the most horrible feeling. If you ever had that pain of missing your child in a shopping center just for a moment, that pain hit me squarely between the eyes. And it never left. It was a horrible feeling. I picked JonBenet up. I carried her upstairs.
LARRY KING, HOST OF "LARRY KING LIVE": The police officer didn't complain about that?
J. RAMSEY: No.
KING: No? Because usually...
PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: It all happened so fast.
J. RAMSEY: I found my daughter...
KING: Oh, I'm a father. J. RAMSEY: I wasn't going to step back and say oops, I'm not going to touch this, this is a crime scene. I had found my precious daughter and I was -- thank God I found her.
KING: Did you try anything to revive her?
J. RAMSEY: I took the tape off her mouth. I tried to untie her arms. They were very tightly bound. I couldn't get the knot undone. And then I just, I, I picked her up and I just screamed, the kind of scream you scream in a dream when you're trying to speak, but you can't. It's just a scream.
KING: When you -- did you see her, too?
P. RAMSEY: I heard him scream.
KING: You never saw her?
P. RAMSEY: Yes, I did then see her. My friends were -- I was in the TV room, and they were -- I said what is it, what is it? And they kept holding me, wait, I don't know what it is. One of our friends ran into the room and said, we need an ambulance, tried to dial 911. I kept screaming, what is it, what is it? And you know, then in just a couple minutes, then I walked into the living room.
KING: Do you often carry the sight in your mind of her, the last time you saw her?
J. RAMSEY: I do. And it for a long time has burned in my mind, and it was a horrible memory. And I tried to replace it with how I knew JonBenet when she was alive. And that's why I carry her picture. That's why -- and it's slowly fading. But it's still there.
P. RAMSEY: At 2:00 o'clock in the morning, I wake up, and I think of JonBenet. And I think that someone was in my home in the middle of the night. Why didn't I hear something? Who did this? How could this have happened in my home?
J. RAMSEY: This person is a mad man. It's a monster. They don't think logically.
KING: Pedophile?
J. RAMSEY: We think it was a pedophile. We think it was a male. There's several key pieces of evidence that we think will lead us to the killer. Male, pedophile, we think a stun gun was involved. So this person either had a stun gun or had access to one. The number 118 had significance to this person. 118,000 was the amount of the ransom note. That was picked for a purpose. We don't know what the purpose is. SBTC meant something to this killer. That was how the ransom note was signed. And this person was in Boulder, Colorado, on December 25th. We're not looking for a needle in a haystack.
KING: Right. You're never going to have peace.
P. RAMSEY: Not until the killer is found. KING: If the killer is never found, you're never going to have peace, right? I mean, let's be logical.
J. RAMSEY: Life is never going to be the same for us regardless. We've lost our daughter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: And tonight, there is a belief that they have found the killer, at least police think they have. And take a look. The first picture you'll ever see of this man. This is John Mark Karr, the 41- year-old or 42-year-old man accused of this crime. We want to stress accused of this crime. There is no proof right now in terms of a court hearing. He's got to go through that whole process right now. And the Ramseys are the first to say that there shouldn't be people rushing to judgment.
But nonetheless, he is believed to be 41 years old. He was arrested in Thailand and questioned there. Apparently the Thai authorities picked him up at the behest of Boulder authorities, Boulder, Colorado.
The D.A.'s office up there had resumed looking into this case after many years of it seemingly going nowhere, and they say that they've spent several months specifically looking at this man.
Sources have told us that he seemed to be involved in some Internet chat that implied that he might be somehow connected to this case. And authorities then decided to go ahead and make this arrest on this man. He's currently being held in Thailand by Thai authorities. And officials are coming from the United States there to take him into custody and to bring him back to the United States.
This is a man who was a former schoolteacher. He lived in Georgia, not terribly far, as we were told a little while ago, about 30 miles away from where the Ramseys lived in their Georgia home, not when they were in Boulder, Colorado.
And this is the man, that after 10 years, authorities want to bring before the court to answer charges that he was responsible for one of the most infamous murders this country has seen in a very long time, and one of the longest cold cases. That's the man right there.
We'll be back with more with much more on this amazing breaking story. Stick with us.
(END BREAKING NEWS)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting. Here in the Middle East, all too familiar news from Baghdad today. The civilian casualties continue to mount. This despite an extensive sweep of problem neighborhoods by U.S. and Iraqi troops.
Here's CNN's Harris Whitbeck. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two car bombs explode within minutes of each other. A busy street in Baghdad filled with all too familiar scenes. More death, more violence. It's very random that's making it all the more terrifying for the city' residents.
On this Wednesday within the space of a few hours, 22 Iraqi civilians lost their lives in Baghdad alone. As rescuers deal with the aftermath, soldiers patrol a Sunni neighborhood of the capital. These are members of Iraq's Sixth Division. According to their U.S. counterparts, one of the most disciplined in the Iraqi army. They are accompanied by U.S. forces.
(On camera): But as the military increases its security patrols, figures from the Ministry of Health indicate they have their work cut out for them. The Baghdad morgue says it received more than 1,800 bodies in the month of July. Bodies of people who are the victims of violence. That is nearly 20 percent higher than the month of June. And it accounts for nearly half the recorded deaths in the entire country.
(Voice-over): The dead, victims of bombings, assassinations, a sniper's bullet. Violence that has steadily increased in the last several months. Securing the capital is an urgent mission, and U.S. soldiers say the city's residents can play a part.
COL. ROBERT SCURLOCK, COMMANDER, 2ND BRIGADE, 1ST ARMORED DIVISION: It's important that we show them, with their help, and with the Iraqis in front, that we can make this happen. It's time that they get tired of the sectarian violence. It's up to the Iraqi people to make this successful, that we're here to help in any way we can.
WHITBECK: So far the patrols have netted hidden arms caches and led to the arrests of suspects, but for now the violence continues unabated, and citizens of the capital just look on.
Harris Whitbeck, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: To the U.K. now. No charges yet in the alleged plot to blow up Transatlantic Airliners. A British judge has given police permission to continue holding all but one of the suspects arrested. Meanwhile, the hunt for evidence goes on.
CNN's Deborah Feyerick reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Four days after raiding this Internet cafe an hour outside London, British police returned the cafe's six computer hard drives and its main server. Manager Saleem Butt, who runs the Asian Spice Cafe in Redding says police told him they took the equipment as part of the antiterrorist operation.
(On camera): This is what they took?
SALEEM BUTT, MANAGER, ASIAN SPICE CAFE: This is what they took. The main server. They haven't returned my CDs and CD-ROMs. That kind of, little bits and pieces which they collected from back of the counter. They haven't been returned. I don't know when they're going to be returned.
FEYERICK: All right. So you're missing your CDs and CD-ROMs?
BUTT: Yes.
FEYERICK: But they've returned all of this.
(Voice-over): A security source close to the British investigation tells CNN authorities believe some of the terror suspects used these computers to send e-mails to associates at another Internet cafe about 50 miles away.
Roy Ramm, who spent years at New Scotland Yards, says that's a classic technique for covering tracks.
ROY RAMM, FORMER COMMANDER, NEW SCOTLAND YARD: I think whenever you're looking at any kind of organized crime or terrorist network, the intention is to try to put as much distance between yourself and other members of the network as possible. Because just one call, one link can build a conspiracy. So what you're trying to do is build distance.
FEYERICK: Butt says on a normal day, about two dozen people walk in and use his computers. He says he keeps a log of what people wear and how much time they spend online, but no one signs in. He did not recognize the names of anyone in custody.
(On camera): Did any of the names ring a bell to you at all?
(Voice-over): Police say they have been watching the alleged jetliner plotters for months. One security source close to investigators tells CNN the alleged plotters avoided meetings, perhaps because some of the suspects may have sensed they were followed. A view Roy Ramm echoes.
RAMM: I think that when people are involved in something, then there is a certain sense of paranoia, and they may have thought that they were under surveillance. There's always a chance they could have spotted something, but equally, they could have spotted something which was completely unconnected from the operation.
FEYERICK: And it's not just computers from Internet cafes. Security sources tell CNN police have computers from homes of some of the suspects. And that police are confident that analysis of the computer data will allow investigators to pinpoint the dates the alleged suicide bombers intended to carry out their deadly plan.
(END VIDEOTAPE) FEYERICK (on camera): Now, security sources do tell CNN that investigators are close to finalizing their case and that the suspects could be charged by the end of next week -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Deb Feyerick, thank you very much.
And nearly five years after the terror attack that wasn't averted, a hero who has remained anonymous. He finally steps forward. We'll meet a man who rescued two police officers trapped alive. That's next on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Some desperate words tonight made public nearly five years after 9/11. They come from tapes of emergency calls. In one call an operator tries to console a woman who died in the collapse of the south tower at the World Trade Center.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: Ma'am, say your prayers.
MELISSA: I'm gonna die.
DISPATCHER: Think positive because you have to help each other get off the floor.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BLITZER: And tonight we meet one of the unsung heroes of 9/11, a man who was sought after, but never found until now.
Here's CNN's Gary Tuchman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jason Thomas and his wife, Kirstie (ph), walk amid the tourists visiting Ground Zero. But Jason is a tourist with a dramatic connection to September 11, that for the most part, he has not talked about.
(On camera): For the last five years you basically told nobody about this?
SGT. JASON THOMAS, FORMER U.S. MARINE: Correct. My mother didn't know the details at all.
TUCHMAN: And how come you didn't tell people?
THOMAS: I just wanted to put it -- I felt that, you know, mission accomplished, you know? Job done.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The mission was his participation in the rescue of two Port Authority police officers buried for hours in the rubble of the World Trade Center buildings. Authorities knew two former U.S. Marines found the officers, but only knew the whereabouts of one of them. The other seemingly vanished.
The Oliver Stone movie "World Trade Center" is the story of the rescue of the two officers. And shows the Marines finding them. One of the Marines is Staff Sergeant David Carnes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anyone can hear me, yell or tap.
TUCHMAN: The other is Sergeant Thomas, so little known about him when production started that the actor playing him is a white man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recon the area, Sergeant. Our best shot is going up.
THOMAS: At one point Thomas started in that direction to the right.
TUCHMAN: Three weeks ago Sergeant Thomas was watching TV and saw a commercial for the movie which featured the two Marines.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no going back. Let's go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thomas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carnes.
TUCHMAN: And because of the movie, we are now learning Sergeant Thomas's story, how he and Sergeant Carnes started a desperate search for survivors.
THOMAS: We were yelling "United States Marines, anyone down there? United States Marines, anyone down there?" And didn't hear anyone for the first, I would say half an hour.
TUCHMAN: And then they heard someone under the fiery, smoky rubble.
THOMAS: It was a low voice. And it was saying something.
TUCHMAN: But you knew you had someone alive?
THOMAS: I knew I had someone alive. I didn't care what that person was saying. At that stage, I just wanted to get to them.
TUCHMAN: More help came, and both seriously injured men were rescued.
THOMAS: As I got out, it was the most amazing thing. It appeared to be a gauntlet. And they was passing down this gauntlet. And everyone was clapping.
TUCHMAN: Of people?
THOMAS: Of people. And it was amazing. It was amazing. It was emotional.
TUCHMAN: Michael Shamberg is the producer of the movie. MICHAEL SHAMBERG, PRODUCER, "WORLD TRADE CENTER": Ever since we started, we kept trying to find him. We had no idea how to find him. And I wish he played himself. If you've met him, he's the greatest guy. He looks like a Marine. He's, like, you couldn't have cast him better than he is himself.
TUCHMAN: After a couple of weeks helping out at Ground Zero Sergeant Thomas went back home to Ohio, grateful when he heard that Police Sergeant John McLaughlin and Officer Will Jimeno were recovering, but content to remain anonymous.
(On camera): How does it feel being back here? You hadn't been here for five years, right?
THOMAS: I really don't want to look over. And yes, this is my first time being over here in five years.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): However, with the movie now out, Sergeant Thomas, who works as a court officer at the Ohio Supreme Court, is hoping to soon have a reunion with the two police officers. But notably, he hasn't seen the movie. And doesn't think he will.
THOMAS: Too emotional. Too emotional for me. But I do recommend others to go see the movie.
TUCHMAN: And if you do, you'll now know that this man is this man.
Gary Tuchman, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And more of 360 in a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: That's it for 360 tonight. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem.
FOREMAN: And I'm Tom Foreman in Washington, D.C.
"LARRY KING" is next, with Jon Bon Jovi.
Thanks for joining us. We'll see you tomorrow.
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