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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Rumsfeld Blasts Critic of Iraq War; Interview With Sister of Polygamist Leader Warren Jeffs; Polygamists Share Inside View of Warren Jeffs; Lost Boys Exiled from Polygamy Community; Polygamist Family Defends Lifestyle
Aired August 30, 2006 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
New details tonight about the hunt for Warren Jeffs and his capture.
And, also, tonight, a new surge of violence in Iraq -- support for the mission falling, and the White House is now taking aim at their critics.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Fighting words -- facing endless violence in Iraq, the White House tries a tough new strategy, while Donald Rumsfeld compares war critics to Nazi-era appeasers, leading to more calls for his resignation.
Polygamist prisoner -- with sect leader Warren Jeffs behind bars, his sister speaks out on the horrors of a secret world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The baby was deformed, and he drowned it.
ANNOUNCER: We will have the exclusive interview.
And outcasts -- the children of polygamy who fled the only life they knew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were taught since when we little kids, if we disobey him, we're going to go to hell.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a profile of the lost boys.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.
Reporting live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York City, here is Anderson Cooper.
COOPER: And thanks for joining us.
We begin in Iraq tonight, and a day that turned into a bloodbath. Four weeks in a security crackdown by U.S. and Iraqi forces, the level of violence today was shocking, even by Iraqi standards. Bomb attacks, a string of them, killed at least 47 people, wounded more than 100 -- targeted, the largest shopping market in Baghdad, a fuel station, and an army recruitment center outside the capital.
The Bush administration is reacting to the bad news -- Donald Rumsfeld speaking out, leveling some pretty harsh criticism of those who oppose U.S. policy in Iraq. We will get to the war of words in a moment.
First, the latest from the front lines.
CNN's Michael Holmes is standing by live in Baghdad -- Michael.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, good evening to you.
Well, U.S. and Iraqi officials had been pleased with a drop in violence this month -- that is, until this week. Since Sunday, 200 Iraqis have been killed in a bloody string of attacks around the country -- Wednesday especially deadly. As you pointed out, for the third time this month, Iraq's biggest wholesale market was targeted, a bomb there killing two dozen people, wounding many more.
It's in an area called Shourja. It sells everything from food to electronics. Iraqis travel from miles around to visit this place, and makes that a popular target.
Now, south of Baghdad, the town of Hillah, it's about 100 kilometers, 60 miles, south of here. An army recruitment was targeted. A bomb rigged to a bicycle exploded -- a dozen people killed, dozens more wounded.
Near Baquba -- that's just north of the capital -- six members of one family were killed, two wounded, when the family's minibus -- this was a group of civilians -- was hit by a roadside bomb, others killed and hurt in a second roadside bombing targeting police in the same area -- Anderson, all of this as Operation Together Forward continues, U.S. and Iraqi troops sweeping through Baghdad's most violent suburbs, an operation successful in reducing sectarian killings in those areas, but clearly not affecting the ability of insurgents to strike elsewhere -- Anderson.
COOPER: Michael Holmes, thanks.
Here's one measure of how big a problem Iraq is for the White House. Tomorrow, in Salt Lake City, President Bush will launch a new series of speeches, trying to make the case for staying in Iraq. The White House, however, isn't just relying on the president.
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is also speaking out. And his talking points are much tougher, much more critical of anyone who opposes staying the course in Iraq.
Here's CNN's Ed Henry.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Call it Bush 3.0, the president's third series of speeches trying to shore up support for the mission in Iraq.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They are speeches to make it clear that, if we retreat before the job is done, this nation will become even more in jeopardy. These are important times. And I was -- I seriously hope people wouldn't politicize these issues that I'm going to talk about.
HENRY: The president insists, he's not playing politics, just like last week, when he said he's not calling war critics unpatriotic.
BUSH: I will never question the patriotism of somebody who disagrees with him.
HENRY: But the president's defense secretary seemed to be doing just that Tuesday, when Donald Rumsfeld suggested, critics of the White House war strategy support the type of appeasement that sparked the rise of Nazism leading up to World War II.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: A sentiment took root that contended that, if only the growing threats that had begun to emerge in Europe and Asia could be accommodated, then, the carnage and the destruction of then recent memory of World War I could be avoided. It was a time when a certain amount of cynicism and moral confusion set in among Western democracies.
HENRY: Then, the secretary took the gloves off.
RUMSFELD: Once again, we face similar challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of fascism. Today, another enemy, a different kind of enemy, has made clear its intentions, but some seem not to have learned history's lesson.
HENRY: Democrats were furious, accusing Rumsfeld of a political rant against war critics.
HOWARD DEAN (D), DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: He's trying to do what -- what the Republicans always do. If you don't have a good idea, then you call your opponents names.
HENRY: And, while the president says he doesn't want to politicize the debate, Vice President Cheney didn't hold back earlier this month either.
RICHARD B. CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Dean Democrats have defeated Joe Lieberman. Their choice instead is a candidate whose explicit goal is to give up the fight against the terrorists in Iraq. For the sake of our security, this nation must reject any strategy of resignation and defeatism, in the face of determined enemies.
HENRY: The White House is employing a good cop/bad cop strategy. Rumsfeld and Cheney play hardball, while the president tries to stay above the fray, focusing his sales pitch on the broader ideological struggle between the forces of freedom and tyranny.
(on camera): The White House seems to be employing a two-pronged strategy. The president insists he doesn't want to politicize the debate, while Vice President Cheney and Secretary Rumsfeld are playing hardball.
Ed Henry, CNN, with the president in Nashville, Tennessee.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, now to the other major story that we have been following, the arrest of fugitive polygamist Warren Jeffs.
Tonight, Jeffs is awaiting extradition hearing in Las Vegas. His luck ran out two days ago, when he was driving this car -- or SUV, I should say. He was captured during a routine traffic stop.
The question tonight, not only what will happen to Warren Jeffs, but, also, what will happen to his thousands of followers -- can his sect survive with their prophet behind bars?
We learned today Jeffs will be to Purgatory -- no kidding -- the Purgatory correctional facility in Utah. We can only guess what he thinks about that coincidence.
CNN's Ted Rowlands has the latest -- Ted.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, his first, and possibly only, court appearance here in the state of Nevada is scheduled for tomorrow. It's an extradition hearing. If he waives extradition, Jeffs could find himself on his way to Utah as early as next week.
Meanwhile, here in Las Vegas, he got a visit from his brother Isaac, who he was with in that car last night. Presumably, Isaac was here and did visit with Warren Jeffs. We have not been able to confirm whether they actually met or not.
It's assumed that Warren Jeffs will have a lot of support from the 15,000 estimated members of the FLDS church, his brothers and relatives included, that during the short term. The concern is over the long term and over the next few months and possibly years.
Also at the courthouse today in Las Vegas, Flora Jessop -- she was a former member of the church, and now actively is against polygamy. She still has family members in Colorado City. She was here. And she is concerned about the long term and the members of the church, saying that she believes that the prophet, from jail, could order violence against authorities in Utah and in Arizona.
She even predicted the worst-case scenario of some sort of a mass suicide, saying that she truly believes that Warren Jeffs has that type of power over members of the flock.
The power, of course, right now is all in the hands of authorities. And Warren Jeffs remains in a jail cell tonight -- Anderson.
COOPER: Ted, what was he -- what was Warren Jeffs captured with? I mean, we saw this red SUV that he -- he was caught with. He was with his brother. He was with one of his wives, a woman who, apparently, was -- used to be the wife of -- of -- of his own father. I guess he took a number of his father's wives as his own wives after his father died. But what else was he caught with?
ROWLANDS: Yes, it was Naomi. Yes, it was -- one of his wives was Rulon Jeffs' wives.
In the SUV -- they were in a -- a red SUV, which -- the color red, in the world of the FLDS church, is against all rules. It's -- it's the color of the devil. Ironically, they were in a red SUV. They had with them $50,000 -- in excess of $50,000 in cash, disguises, three wigs, numerous sunglasses, clearly the things that they had to help them stay undercover.
They -- Warren Jeffs has been on the FBI's 10 most wanted list since May of this year. His luck ran out, though, just north of Las Vegas here, when a -- a very astute state trooper pulled him over, and then decided that the two men were just way too nervous, and did some checking, and eventually found out he had captured Warren Jeffs.
COOPER: What was it that made the state trooper pull them over?
ROWLANDS: They had no license plate. It was a brand-new Cadillac Escalade that they were driving around in -- no plates.
The trooper pulled it over, realized it was a brand-new car, should not have been a problem. But he said, immediately, he detected that the driver, Isaac Jeffs, and Warren Jeffs in the back seat were so nervous that he had to keep questioning them. He pulled them apart. He got different stories about where they were headed.
He said, at one point, he looked at Warren Jeffs' and saw his neck pulsating so fast that he knew something was off. At that point, he called the FBI. And, soon after, the positive identification was made.
COOPER: Quick thinking.
Ted Rowlands, thanks.
So much about the FLDS remains unknown. It's really a closed, secret society in America. We have been trying to understand the life inside the sect for months now.
Our next two guests know what it's like up close. Elaine Jeffs is Warren Jeffs' sister. She grew up in the sect with her brother. She -- she left. She was 41 years old when she escaped, finally kidnapped some of her kids.
Filmmaker Laurie Allen grew up in a different sect. She, too, broke away, and made a documentary about polygamy called "Banking on Heaven." I spoke to them both earlier, in an exclusive interview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Elaine, let me start off with you.
What went through your mind when you heard that your brother had been arrested?
ELAINE JEFFS, SISTER OF WARREN JEFFS: Oh, I was -- at first, I thought, I wonder if it really is him. I -- I -- I wondered if they were going to positively I.D. him. But, then, I was just very relieved -- like a lot of other people, very relieved.
COOPER: You know, when you see those pictures of him, when you -- when you hear those -- those sermons of his, does it feel like -- I mean, do you say to yourself, that's my brother?
E. JEFFS: Yes. I say, that's my brother. And that's him, and not me.
COOPER: Does it -- I mean, do you understand what he's doing? Do you understand what he has become?
E. JEFFS: Yes, I think I do.
He's -- he's trying to build a perfect people. And he's -- he's -- he's aiming for perfection.
COOPER: What was he like as a child?
E. JEFFS: Well, he was just my snot-nosed little brother.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: And do you have -- how many siblings did you have?
E. JEFFS: I had -- I'm the oldest of 65.
COOPER: Sixty-five?
E. JEFFS: Yes.
COOPER: Wow.
E. JEFFS: Yes.
COOPER: Laurie, why do you think it -- it's important that -- that -- that Jeffs has been captured?
LAURIE ALLEN, FILMMAKER: I think it's important, because I think that he's hurting a lot of lives, a lot of American families.
And I think that he and other folks like him, other leaders of some of these groups, that -- like the Kingston groups. These are men that are very narcissistic. They think that they're, you know, God's chosen. And they're hurting families, and they're hurting children. And -- and we really need to -- to get it stopped.
COOPER: Let -- let's talk about how they're hurting, because -- I want to play you a clip from your documentary "Banking on Heaven" about some of the -- the abuses that you say go on.
Let -- let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BANKING ON HEAVEN")
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, then, you grow up also going to bed every night, and laying awake for hours, waiting to hear the footsteps coming down the hall.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what did that mean?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That usually meant your dad was coming to your bed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The implication, obviously, being molestation. I mean, is that prevalent, in your opinion, within the FLDS?
ALLEN: Well, it is, Anderson, because, when you take away a man's control over his own life, and control over his finances, control over his family, whether or not he can keep a wife or give -- be given a wife, or whatever, men, you know, do things like molest their children, because that -- it -- it ultimately leads to, that's the only thing left they have to control.
And this is a problem. And this is -- this is not -- it's not across the board with all of the men in these -- in these fundamental cults, but they -- it is common, and especially in -- in Colorado City. That was one of the things that surprised me the most, in the process of making this film, is that it -- how many -- everybody I interviewed had been molested. It -- it's just -- it -- I couldn't believe it.
COOPER: Elaine, are you angry at your brother? Do you feel sorry for him? What -- what -- what is the feeling?
E. JEFFS: I -- I just feel -- I feel pretty detached, mostly. I do feel sorry for him, but I know he really, really believes in what he's doing.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Do you think he's really trying to do -- I mean, because there are those who have painted him as -- as a monster, really, as someone who is, you know, arbitrarily, you know, send -- taking wives from one man, and -- and -- and reassigning them to -- reassigning a wife to another man.
Do -- you think he's -- his intentions are good?
E. JEFFS: I think he thinks his intentions are good. I think -- I don't. I think it's -- it's just terribly wrong, and that isn't the way my father did it.
COOPER: How was your father different? Your father, Rulon, became the -- the leader of the FLDS.
E. JEFFS: It -- how did he become the leader?
COOPER: How was he different than -- than...
E. JEFFS: Oh. He...
COOPER: ... than Warren?
E. JEFFS: He was -- he was much milder. And he really believed in keeping families together.
They -- if someone was unhappy with their situation, he would encourage them to stick with it.
COOPER: What do you think should happen to your brother, Elaine?
E. JEFFS: I think he needs -- needs to face the justice system, and get a fair trial for what -- for what he's accused of. And we will see how it turns out.
COOPER: Elaine Jeffs, Laurie Allen, thank you very much.
ALLEN: Thank you.
E. JEFFS: Thank you.
ALLEN: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: We are going to have more of my exclusive interview with Elaine and Laurie tomorrow on 360, an inside look at a secret society that is literally hiding in plain sight.
Hundreds of young followers of Jeffs have been exiled or escaped from the two towns where Jeffs holds sway. But life for them outside the sect is not easy. We're going to introduce you to the so-called lost boys of polygamy. They have entered a new world, and can't forget the old one they left have behind -- that story coming up.
We will also have this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't think the people here will say, he's in jail; it's time to do something else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. They will say, he -- he's in jail, so that means he's getting persecuted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Return to polygamy town -- Jeffs' followers talking about his capture. And one of them goes so far as to call him a hypocrite -- that and more when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
WARREN JEFFS, POLYGAMIST LEADER (singing): To make our lives worth living, we must live in love.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: The creepy song stylings of Warren Jeffs.
He reportedly has as many as 10,000 followers. Many can be found along these two towns in -- bordering Arizona and Nevada, two polygamist towns literally hiding in plain sight.
CNN's Gary Tuchman has visited both those places many times, always asking questions, never welcome. Tonight, he returns once more. This time, he was met with a very surprising reaction from one of Warren Jeffs' faithful.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This Colorado City woman is a member of Warren Jeffs' FLDS church.
(on camera): Have you heard about Warren Jeffs being captured?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I heard about it.
TUCHMAN: Tell me how you feel about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not sure.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): In this remote part of the Southwest, where about 10,000 Jeffs supporters live, it is very hard to get church members to talk to us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And this one.
TUCHMAN: That's why we were surprised when 23-year-old Elsie (ph) opened up her home and her heart by talking about the church she loves, but the prophet she no longer trusts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't believe prophets are dishonest and do what he has done.
TUCHMAN: Since Warren Jeffs has been on the run, Elsie (ph) and her husband have lost their affection for a man who, until recently, meant everyone to them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thought that he was the one who got the revelation, and, through him, you could go to heaven.
TUCHMAN (on camera): And you loved him, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mmm-hmm. Yes, I did.
TUCHMAN: Elsie (ph) is the only wife in the house for now, but, coming from a polygamist family, she says it's likely her husband will take more wives in the future. Their marriage three years ago was performed by Jeffs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I am president Warren S. Jeffs," that is what he said when he first went in. And then he told me he wanted me to marry Robert Richter (ph). And I didn't know who he was, but I found out real soon.
TUCHMAN: And, when you were told you were getting married, how soon did you get married?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we waited five minutes after that, until he arrived. And then...
TUCHMAN: That's a length -- that's a lengthy courtship.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then I married him.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Elsie (ph) still believes that Warren Jeffs was inspired by the lord to marry her to a man she now loves. But she has lost her respect for Jeffs, the man who taught his flock to live simple religious lives, without outside influences.
(on camera): The fact that Warren Jeffs had $54,000 in the car, and disguises, and wigs, and cell phones, and all kinds of stuff, what does that make you think?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It doesn't make me think he was very honest.
TUCHMAN: A hypocrite?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mmm-hmm.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): But Warren Jeffs, she says, will remain in charge of this church, even as a prisoner.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he will be a leader as long as he says he is.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Even though he's behind bars?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
TUCHMAN: You don't think the people here will say, he's in jail; it's time to do something else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. They will say, he's in jail, so that means he's getting persecuted.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Elsie (ph) says, she will continue her life with conservative attire, no TV, and practicing her religion. But she's looking for a new prophet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: You know, Gary, after seeing you being repeatedly rebuffed by just about everyone in that town, it's -- it's -- it's amazing to actually see you welcomed into someone's home.
She seemed so, you know, heartfelt. And, I mean, you -- it -- it's a fascinating look inside this belief system.
TUCHMAN: Well, Anderson, there are other people here who believe what Elsie (ph) believes.
But most of them, because they have been told all their lives not to talk to outsiders, are too scared to talk to us, let alone let us in their homes. But most people here still are very devoted to Warren Jeffs, appear to be very angry that he has been arrested, and also are angry when we come up to them to talk to them.
But we can tell you this woman, Elsie (ph), was very courageous, had a lot of guts to let us in her house, because even her mom and dad -- she talked to her mom and dad afterwards, who are still very devoted Warren Jeffs believers -- her dad is upset that she talked to us. She is now upset she talked to us, too.
But she says the reason she let us in her house and talked to us is, she was always taught to be nice to people, and she wanted to be nice to us.
COOPER: It -- it is fascinating.
Gary Tuchman, appreciate it. Thank you very much.
When polygamist Warren Jeffs goes to trial, he won't be the first to face charges of polygamy and sex crimes related to minors. There are eight others accused of -- eight others accused polygamists, I should say, who are facing charges in Kingman, Arizona. But prosecuting polygamists has not been easy.
CNN's Randi Kaye investigates.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At age 16, Candi Shapley says she was ordered to marry 28-year-old polygamist Randy Barlow. She says he forced her to have sex with him. So, why, then, is Shapley refusing to testify against Barlow in court? He is charged with sexual conduct with a minor. But his trial had to be postponed after Shapley repeatedly refused to answer questions in court.
(on camera): Why do you think she's refusing to testify? MATT SMITH, MOHAVE COUNTY, ARIZONA, ATTORNEY: Her family has put a tremendous amount of pressure on her, because they are members. Her father and mother both are believers in Warren Jeffs as being the prophet and in the FLDS church. And they don't want her to have anything to do with these prosecutions.
The victim is also a key witness in the Warren Jeffs case. And, here, Warren Jeffs gets arrested, all that pressure, that added scrutiny in that.
KAYE: Shapley, now 20 and no longer a member of the FLDS church, told a grand jury last year it was Jeffs who arranged her marriage and performed the ceremony.
Also, when Shapley told Barlow she wasn't ready to have children at 16, she said, he told her, "Yes, you are," and then forced himself on her.
(on camera): Barlow is just one of eight men facing similar charges, all of them believed to be members of Warren Jeffs' FLDS church. This is the largest group of men to be prosecuted for polygamy-related crimes since 1953.
(voice-over): But prosecuting polygamists isn't easy.
SMITH: Most of the victims won't talk to us, and the neighbors won't talk to us. All the people that are loyal to Warren Jeffs in the church won't talk to us.
KAYE: Keeping track of witnesses, nearly impossible.
SMITH: They will move people around. If Warren Jeffs or the other church leaders say, we want you to move into this home, and we're going to switch homes, they will do it like that, without even questioning it or thinking about, geez, I really like the way my house is set up.
KAYE: Investigator Gary Engels has worked these cases for years.
GARY ENGELS, MOHAVE COUNTY, ARIZONA, INVESTIGATOR: I think, eventually, justice will win out. If I didn't, I couldn't continue to do this. So, we just keep pushing and pushing, and -- and see where it leads us. I'm not -- I'm not done yet. I'm not ready to give up.
KAYE: Seven of these eight men are still awaiting trial. All have pleaded not guilty and refuse to speak with CNN.
Last month, polygamist Kelly Fischer was found guilty of statutory rape, and sentenced to 45 days in jail, plus three years probation.
But, if Candi Shapley stays silent, Randy Barlow, innocent or guilty, could go free.
SMITH: We lose. She's the only witness that can satisfy the elements of the crime. KAYE: And Shapley, now held in contempt of court, may be the one who ends up in jail.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: One other note: Polygamy is banned in the state of Arizona, but it's not actually on the books as being illegal.
What is illegal here, of course, is having sex with a minor. And it's on that that these eight men are being prosecuted, which, also, Anderson, may explain why investigators, many months ago, raided the homes belonging to these men, looking for DNA, saliva, birth certificates belonging to the men, the women, the children, trying to figure out paternity, and also trying to figure out the age of these women when they actually started giving birth to these children.
COOPER: Randi, fascinating.
So the question now is, what happens next to Warren Jeffs' sect? Can he lead the FLDS from behind bars? We will talk with two men who have been investigating Jeffs for years.
And fighting the negative image of polygamy, why one family says the truth is not what you see in the media -- all that coming up on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JEFFS: Many young men, when they receive their first wife, they're just so untrained. And the woman, if she's not careful, will be overbearing and always ask permission for what she wants. And, ladies, build up your husband by being submissive. That's how you will give your children the success. You will want your children to be obedient and submissive to righteous living.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: That was Warren Jeffs, passing on his words of wisdom on marriage and parenthood.
There are many questions now left unanswered about his future, including, what does his capture mean for the other members of his church?
We're joined now by Dr. Dan Fischer, a former follower of Warren Jeffs -- he started an organization to help former FLDS members banned by Jeffs -- and John Llewellyn, a former polygamist and the author of the book "Polygamy's Rape of Rachael Strong."
Gentlemen, thanks for being with us.
John, let me start off with you.
The Arizona attorney general said that Jeffs' power will be diminished by his arrest. Do you think that's true?
JOHN LLEWELLYN, AUTHOR, "POLYGAMY'S RAPE OF RACHAEL STRONG": It won't immediately.
I think that people are going to be sitting back and watching to see what happens. And he's going try and -- and run the organization from behind the prison bars. Other polygamists who have been in prison have done the same thing, Tom Green, others. I don't see any -- I think it will be business as usual for a while.
COOPER: Business as usual.
Dan, you left Warren Jeffs' community 11 years ago. Do you think Jeffs' arrest is going to empower people who are thinking about leaving today, perhaps, and encourage them to do it?
LLEWELLYN: I think if they're thinking about leaving today, it will definitely help them. If they had no intentions of leaving today is still going to take time. And that being said, this has been an important milestone, a stepping stone, which can give those more opportunity, greater potential, if not next year, the following year, to be able to reconsider, and receive more data, more information to make decisions in their lives.
COOPER: Dan, you're a former follower of this guy. If he's in prison, will people still follow him?
FISCHER: I want to qualify I never followed this guy. That was one of the reasons I left. That being said, they will follow him. He is their prophet. There will be some things that this will have an immediate impact on, however.
For example, one of the most major impacts will be on the marriage system. This guy and his father taught that they, the prophet, could be the only one to select who married who and marry them, nonetheless. So unless they break from what has been a strong doctrine taught for some years, there won't be any marriages occurring while this man is in prison.
COOPER: John, how do you think Jeffs will hold up in prison?
LLEWELLYN: I was discussing that with Carolyn just a little while ago. This is a man who's kind of had the silver spoon. He's never been -- had to be accountable to anyone.
Now all of a sudden the most humiliating thing that could possibly happen to him has happened. This could be very interesting to watch how he handles this behind bars. I don't think it's going to be easy for him for one second.
COOPER: But, John, I mean, is it a tough thing for this prophet to explain what's happened to him? I mean, I know in the past he's predicted the end of the world, and I guess he's been able to explain why that didn't happen.
LLEWELLYN: Well, I've noticed with all of these prophets, they always are the victims and that they're able to turn persecution into a faith-promoting situation.
And I think this is what you'll see now. Because other prophets in the past, going back to Joseph Smith, have been in prison. John Taylor and a lot of the others. So he could become a martyr. You know, there's always that possibility.
COOPER: Dan, you've created a group that helps kids and young people who have been kicked out or who left Warren Jeffs' community. How are they reacting to the news of Jeffs' arrest, the so-called lost boys?
FISCHER: Inside and amongst themselves, to people like me, they are overjoyed. Relative to getting in front of the media and the like, they are concerned. They do have concerns of retaliation. They do have immense concerns of how their families would look at them, should they demonstrate that they are happy about this incarceration of their prophet, if you will.
And these boys, they want for the long run to be able to rekindle a relationship with their father, their mothers, their brothers and sisters. And that's important to them. So they will probably, to a significant degree, be avoiding showing or displaying happiness.
But, yes, they are overjoyed. You think of the boy who has been ordered out, kicked out by this prophet, told not to return, told they can't see their brothers or sisters, their parents again. For sure, they feel that this is just.
COOPER: It is a fascinating story. Dan Fischer, John Llewellyn, appreciate your perspective. Thank you.
Coming up, freed from Jeffs. The lost boys of polygamy we've just been talking about, struggling to start a new life on the outside.
And also, he's another powerful polygamist with 20 wives and 100 children, a man who some say could take over for Warren Jeffs. Is that possible? We'll explain that ahead.
Also in -- we'll have more from inside the FLDS community. All that ahead on 360.
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COOPER: Polygamist Winston Blackmore knows Warren Jeffs well. He was once a leader in Jeffs' church before Jeffs excommunicated him. Blackmore now lives in exile in Canada, and while he says he's happy with his new life, many members of his former church wonder what his plans for the future are, now that Jeffs is behind bars.
CNN's Dan Simon talked with Blackmore.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Winston Blackmore is considered one of the most powerful polygamist leaders in North America. With Warren Jeffs seemingly out of the picture, some believe Blackmore might be the man to take charge.
(on camera) You heard some of the speculation that some people think that you're poised to take over the church.
WINSTON BLACKMORE, FORMER FDLS LEADER: Well, you'd have to have a will to do that, which I, you know, I lack the will to do that.
SIMON (voice-over): Blackmore repeatedly told us he's not interested. Why? Blackmore says he loves living in Canada in a polygamist enclave called Bountiful and has no desire to move his family to the church headquarters in Colorado City. Blackmore refuses to give specifics, but it's estimated he has 20 wives and 100 children.
(on camera) You're not interested in any scenario, you're not interested?
BLACKMORE: I have no aspirations.
SIMON (voice-over): Blackmore has several hundred followers here, but even if he did want to take over the FLDS church, he might not be able to because Warren Jeffs excommunicated him.
Now Blackmore has no sympathy for Jeffs after his arrest, saying the Colorado City leader tore apart too many families.
BLACKMORE: And I think that if he even got one week for every day of heartache that he caused people, he'd be in there for a long, long, long time.
SIMON: Blackmore knows Jeffs as well as anybody. For nearly two decades, he led the 1,000-member FLDS branch here. They talked often.
(on camera) Four years ago the two had a major falling out. Blackmore says it's because he criticized Jeffs for taking such tight control of the church. When Jeffs stripped him of power, it caused a deep division here in Bountiful. Half remained loyal to Jeffs, the other to Blackmore.
Any chance that the people of bountiful can get back together and be sort of a happy family again?
BLACKMORE: Oh, I don't think so. There's not any will on either side to do that.
SIMON (voice-over): Blackmore, like most people, was shocked over the way Jeffs got caught, but he says what surprised him the most is what Jeffs was wearing at the time of the arrest, because church doctrine says members must cover their bodies in public.
(on camera) We heard he was wearing shorts and a T-shirt. You're shocked by that?
BLACKMORE: I am really shocked by it because his -- all of his faith followers over there in Bountiful are -- are, you know, holding onto his dress code just as hard and fast as they can.
SIMON (voice-over): Blackmore says the iPods, the computers and clothing expose Jeffs as a hypocrite. The very things Jeffs made his followers shun.
Still, he doesn't expect Jeffs' faithful to stop believing in him. Nor does he expect Jeffs to relinquish power even if he's locked up.
BLACKMORE: The organization has operated for operated at least the last year and a half like they never had a leader anyway. You know, no one had a clear understanding of who it was that was calling the shots.
SIMON: Whoever's calling the shots right now or in the future may not be clear, but Blackmore says it won't be him.
Dan Simon, CNN, Bountiful, British Columbia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Winston Blackmore isn't the only person Warren Jeffs forced out of his church. Next on 360, we'll tell you about the so- called lost boys in the polygamist community.
Plus, why one family is actually standing up for polygamy. Their story and more when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Earlier this evening the sister of Warren Jeffs, Elaine Jeffs, described to me her life inside her brother's polygamist kingdom and how she escaped with five of her nine children.
Elaine Jeffs is not the only one to break away. There are others, including the lost boys of polygamy. That's what they're called. They're now free from Jeffs but forced to live in an entirely new world. And it is not easy for them.
Again, here's CNN's Dan Simon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SIMON (voice-over): This young man's trade is home construction. Ironic, perhaps, because Sam is actually homeless. Until two months ago he lived in Colorado City, Arizona. In fact, Sam grew up in the isolated polygamist community led by Warren Jeffs.
SAM, LOST BOY: I'm totally an outcast now.
SIMON: We caught up with the 17-year-old and his friends in St. George, Utah, a town that has taken in dozens, if not hundreds of the so-called lost boys, teenage boys who were either kicked out of the sect run by Jeffs or, like Sam, fled.
He says he ran away after hearing about the outside world from relatives. He became aware of the freedoms absent in his life.
SAM: We always had to hide in the closet to watch movies and could never do anything fun. Always working every day. Just all these rules and regulations. Couldn't have girlfriends. Couldn't talk to girls or wave to them OR ANYTHING. So I just left.
SIMON: Bruce Barlow is one of Sam's closest friends. The two ran away together.
BRUCE BARLOW, LOST BOY: He can't walk down the street.
SIMON (on camera): You couldn't just walk down the street?
BARLOW: Yes. You have to get a ride wherever you go.
SIMON: Most kids can ride bikes.
BARLOW: No, you have to get a ride.
SIMON (voice-over): It was one of Jeffs' orders.
SAM: And everybody believes him so much because they're taught since you were kids. If you disobey him, you go to hell.
SIMON: Sam was also taught to believe in having multiple wives, something he now finds morally wrong.
(on camera) What do you think about these young girls marrying these older men?
SAM: Well, I think it's pretty much like rape, because they're taught when they're little to marry the older men and become plural wives. And so they don't really know anything else.
SIMON: Do you think it's like rape?
SAM: Yes, because they don't really have a choice.
SIMON: Sam never finished the ninth grade. He attended a school operated by Jeffs. He says it did not teach American history or science.
Now Sam makes his way alone. He sleeps on friends' floors. Perhaps not surprisingly, he is thrilled by new freedoms. Among his first acts of independence, he had his ears pierced and his hair bleached.
He says the construction work is temporary. He wants to go back to school. And he says he probably wouldn't have left Colorado City, had it not been for Warren Jeffs.
When Jeffs came into power four years ago and proclaimed himself a prophet, Sam says he did everything possible to isolate his followers from the outside world.
(on camera) Help me understand this. He made these changes just a few years ago. He came in and said, "OK, everybody, no more cartoons. You can't watch them any more"?
SAM: Yes, no more movies, no more TV, no more Internet in the homes, everything like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't hear the words real good. They're kind of mumbled.
Simons (voice-over): the kids say they grew up without ever listening to music, except for what Jeffs gave them.
WARREN JEFFS, SELF-PROCLAIMED PROPHET (singing): To make our lives worth living.
SIMON: This is Jeffs singing. They say it played constantly in their homes and cars.
(on camera) Are you kind of aware that you didn't really have a normal childhood?
SAM: Yes, but I mean we're always taught that we're better. I mean, we're like a chosen race. I mean, everybody -- we see people in short sleeves when is I was young and called them wicked and stuff. It was like we're so high and mighty. I mean, we're the better people.
SIMON (voice-over): Sam knows he may never see his nine brothers and sisters and parents again. But he says he has no regrets about leaving.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: That was CNN's Dan Simon, reporting.
While the lost boys tell a tale of exclusion, others practicing the polygamist lifestyle tell a different story. Up next, you'll hear their defense of polygamy.
Now we return to New Orleans for a special report. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, police officers were real heroes. A small number now accused of criminal activity, maybe even murder. A 360 special investigation of Katrina killings, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We've been telling you a lot about Warren Jeffs and the dark side of polygamy, but there are some people who say that polygamists are misunderstood, that their families are just as loving and normal as other families.
CNN's Heidi Collins recently spoke with the family that says polygamy is more than a lifestyle. They say it is a spiritual calling.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's their favorite time of the day. Their dad's home from work. And now it's family time. But family time at this suburban Salt Lake household is different.
JOE, POLYGAMIST: I have three wives and 21 children that I am a father to.
COLLINS: this is Joe. Joe is a polygamist. He's also a successful businessman. He does not want his identity revealed, because he wants to protect not only his family but also his lucrative business relationships. Many wouldn't approve of his lifestyle.
(on camera) Why is it important for you to be understood?
JOE: I think it's important that not so much I'm understood, but the many, many people like me are understood. We are men that take on a tremendous amount of responsibility for a very good purpose and not for a sinister purpose.
COLLINS (voice-over): It's hard to think about polygamy without the stereotypes that come with it: the old-fashioned clothing, the compounds with walls to conceal them, and submissive women.
JOE: We're not on welfare. This isn't about sex. It's not about control or oppression or abuse. It's about choice, about a very spiritual choice for us.
COLLINS: You can see the difference when visiting the home he shares with his three wives and 19 of his children.
These are Joe's second and third wives. Joe's first and only legal wife declined to speak with us on camera, but Vicki and Valerie say this lifestyle is certainly their choice.
VICKI, POLYGAMIST: It's a choice that, you know, you know going into it that that's what you're going to do. And it does take a lot of, I guess, sacrifice or just selflessness, kind of overcoming a lot of natural selfish tendencies in people.
COLLINS (on camera): If you had to say what was the absolute best part about this lifestyle?
VICKI: I think just the closeness that we share. I mean, there's nothing like just having all these children around to interact with and have all the love that goes back and forth between us.
VALERIE, POLYGAMIST: I love it for the fact that it really makes you expand yourself.
COLLINS (voice-over): Joe's 37. His 21 kids range from five weeks to 15 years old. He says his many kids are a spiritual calling and that he works hard at being a good father.
JOE: People have to know that they have me time. I do daddy/daughter dates. I do sports activities with my kids. Times when they know that's me and them. COLLINS: The older children asked not to be on camera. They worry about backlash from their friends. The kids do attend regular schools, play sports and play strums. They even have friends come over to play. But they are always cautious.
Joe and his wives don't want their kids to live in secrecy, but they know their lives are illegal.
JOE: It's hard, because I'm such a forthright person. And I don't -- I'm not ashamed of who I am or what I do, and so I don't necessarily try to hide it, but at times you have to be very discreet.
COLLINS: Heidi Collins, CNN, Taramon (ph), Utah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, we'll have more on Warren Jeffs in a moment. We'll also have the "Shot of the Day" coming up. I'll give you a little hint. It involves something about tomatoes flying through the air.
First, Erica Hill from Headline News joins us with a "360 Bulletin".
Hi, Erica.
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Anderson, convicted sex offender Alfonso Rodriguez Jr. has been found guilty of kidnapping and killing 22-year-old Dru Sjodin. The announcement was made today in a federal courthouse in Fargo, North Dakota.
A jury must now decide whether Rodriguez is eligible for the death penalty. Dru disappeared from a mall parking lot in 2003. Her body was found in a ravine five months later. She had been raped and stabbed.
In the Middle East, Israel has rejected a request by U.S. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to immediately lift its air and sea blockade of Lebanon. Annan, who was visiting the region, also wanted Israel to withdraw its forces once 5,000 international troops are deployed. Israel had indicated it would only lift that blockade and withdraw troops after the full implementation of a U.N.-brokered cease-fire.
Meantime, Lebanon's prime minister says his government will give you the equivalent of $33,000 to Lebanese residents whose homes were destroyed by Israeli attacks. The announcement comes two weeks after Hezbollah started giving civilians cash payments worth as much as $12,000.
And back here in the U.S., some happy news for Sago mine survivor Randy McCloy and his wife. They are expecting their third child next spring.
And McCloy says it's still early in pregnancy, but good news travels fast. As for Randy, he's still undergoing extensive rehabilitation from the injuries he sustained in January's mine accident.
So talk about some great news for their family, huh, Anderson?
COOPER: Yes. That really is great.
Time for "The Shot". Stick around for this, Erica. Because I know how you love the tomatoes. And 40,000 people playing with their food. Yes, that's right, it's the annual Tomato Throwing Festival in Spain. That's right. Six...
HILL: We'll have to cover that one year.
COOPER: Oh, yes, that would be fun. Six truckloads carrying more than 220,000 pounds of tomatoes. Or is it tomatoes in Spain. I'm not sure. They were used -- people pelted with -- each other. We've all seen this. It happens every year. We have to talk about it every year.
HILL: You can't get enough.
COOPER: The tradition goes back to the 1940s. Apparently, a bunch of young kids started throwing their lunches at each other in the downtown square.
HILL: Oh, those crazy kids.
COOPER: I know. The kooky. And now it's -- you know, it's newscasters everywhere love it for the kicker. And some tomatoes.
HILL: I mean, it's good stuff. I do love a good tomato, but I prefer to eat it rather than throw it.
COOPER: Do you say tomato or tomato?
HILL: I say tomato.
COOPER: Let's call the whole thing off. Erica, thanks.
We're going to head back to New Orleans after the break for a special report. We're returning to the chaos following Katrina, investigating allegations that certain members of the New Orleans Police Department lost their moral bearings, engaged in criminal activity and, some say, even misused deadly force. "Katrina Killings", a 360 special investigation, is next.
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