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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Secretary of State Rice Travels to Asia; Senate's Top Democrat Facing Scandal?; Can Republicans Make a Comeback?
Aired October 17, 2006 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
We are going to have more on John Mark Karr and what he's been saying a little later, and what he has not been saying.
But we begin with North Korea and new signs tonight that Kim Jong Il's first nuclear explosion may not be his last.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Testing our patience: North Korea threatening to detonate more nukes.
A Democratic senator.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: I bought a piece of land, sold it six years later. Everything was reported.
ANNOUNCER: A Republican congressman.
REP. CURT WELDON (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I have not done anything wrong. And my daughter hasn't either.
ANNOUNCER: Both facing uncomfortable questions just three weeks from Election Day. How does that factor in?
Plus, what John Mark Karr said when he thought the cameras weren't rolling about dreams and children.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.
Reporting tonight from the CNN studios in New York, here is Anderson Cooper.
COOPER: Thanks for joining us.
New signs tonight of nuclear activity in North Korea, and not one, but three potential test sites. As for North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Il, he was partying today, attending a massive nighttime celebration, gaudy, as only a starving country can make it, people singing the praises of their Dear Leader.
This is the first that Kim has been seen in public since North Korea tested a nuclear device a little more than a week ago. Now, with U.N. sanctions against him, sanctions the North Koreans say amount to an act of war, it is beginning to look like the Dear Leader is about to raise the stakes yet again.
The late details from CNN's Barbara Starr.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the North Korean capital, Pyongyang, a lavish celebration of the communist regime's accomplishments over the past 80 years was broadcast to the world.
But intelligence analysts were looking at different images, images that were picked up from a remote area far outside the capital, and showed what could be preparations for a second underground nuclear test.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There is speculation that they may want to do something additional. There's also speculation they may not. So, only time will tell.
STARR: According to intelligence and military officials, U.S. spy satellites have seen signs of activity again at several North Korean sites that could be used for nuclear tests.
The Bush administration isn't sure what it all means. At two of the sites, small structures have been put up, perhaps to keep the preparations hidden. U.S. officials say, what worries them most is that the new activity is very similar to what happened just before the first test.
The U.S. is also closely monitoring statements by senior North Korean officials and military leaders that indicate additional nuclear tests are in the works, possibly at three sites.
One thing that got analysts' attention was a statement on North Korean television that the U.N. sanctions are -- quote -- "a declaration of war." Intelligence analysts know that kind of rhetoric has been increasing anxiety in China in recent days. There are worries additional tests would further destabilize the region.
The U.S. believes a defiant Kim Jong Il might soon pursue a second test, because the first test seems to have partially failed, and he may want to prove he has a nuclear weapon that works.
JAMES LILLEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH KOREA: He's thumbing his nose at the world. He's going to do this and get his people mobilized. He's going to appeal to all of his Third World friends in Iran, Venezuela, Castro in Cuba, Shahir (ph) in -- in Sudan. These are his people. He is saying: I can stand up. This is my nuke.
It's a show.
STARR (on camera): U.S. officials say they simply can't predict what North Korea might do. But, at this point, there is such concern about the possibility of a second test, that officials say their best hope might be getting China for exert whatever influence it may have over North Korea.
Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Right now, Secretary of State Rice is on her way to the region.
With more on that and how the administration is handling the latest developments, we turn to CNN's Suzanne Malveaux in Washington -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, the fact that North Korea is now officially a nuclear state and also perhaps readying for these additional tests, it raises the stakes that much higher for the president and his administration.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is on her way to Japan, which would be her first stop. She will then head to South Korea, China, and then Russia to meet with her counterparts. The whole point of this trip is really to try to get those members of the U.N. Security Council that backed these tough sanctions, essentially, to carry them out.
We have already heard expresses, reservations from the Chinese, saying, yes, they would be able to inspect cargo going in and out of North Korea, but not necessarily intercept. There's no real sense of how these sanctions are going to work. They have to be measured. They cannot create tension or be provocative, because, Anderson, the truth of the matter is, here, White House officials know that this whole alliance could fall apart if they push them too hard.
COOPER: What's been the reaction to the rumblings of another North Korea nuclear test, or several tests?
MALVEAUX: Well, sure.
White House officials, this evening, say, look, it would not be a surprise if -- if North Korea decided they would fire off and conduct these additional tests. They are trying to be somewhat reserved and cautious about all of this.
But officials say, look, you know, this could actually work in the Bush administration's favor here, embolden their case that the neighbors of North Korea really need to get tough with -- with North Korea itself.
We heard earlier today from the Chris Hill, assistant secretary of state, who has been traveling ahead of Secretary Rice. We heard from him out of Seoul, South Korea.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHRISTOPHER HILL, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: I mean, I think we would all regard a second test as a -- as a very belligerent answer on North Korea's part to the -- to the international community. And I think the international community would have no choice, but to respond very clearly to the -- to the DPRK on this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: And, certainly, Anderson, that is something that came up early this morning -- President Bush meeting with the foreign minister of South Korea at the White House, who is soon going to be the new U.N. secretary-general, coming up with strategy.
But, as you know, I mean, the big unanswered question, whether or not these sanctions are even going to be enough to get North Korea to change its mind and come back to the negotiating table, that's far from certain.
COOPER: It certainly is.
Suzanne, thanks.
For a look at how this is all playing out over there, we go live to Seoul, South Korea, and CNN's Dan Rivers -- Dan.
DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're getting more of an idea here, Anderson, of what Condoleezza Rice is going to be talking to the South Koreans about.
We're being told by the U.S. ambassador here, Alexander Vershbow, that Condoleezza Rice is going to ask the South Koreans to be more active in interdicting shipping, this very controversial part of the -- of the sanctions regime that is now in place.
That comes under something called the Proliferation Security Initiative. They want them to be much more active in that. But the problem that South Koreans have is, if they start interdicting -- intercepting North Korean shipping, it could lead to heightened tensions. It could even lead to naval clashes.
Back in 1999 and back in 2002, there were actual naval battles going on here, with ships being sunk, and sailors being killed, between North and South Korea. And no one wants to see that repeated -- Anderson.
COOPER: Dan, appreciate that.
Some perspective now on dealing with any new testing and new threats from Pyongyang, not to mention keeping the pressure on Kim Jong Il, as difficult as that is.
For that, we're joined now by Anne-Marie Slaughter, dean of the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University.
Thanks for being with us. ANNE-MARIE SLAUGHTER, DEAN, WOODROW WILSON SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AND INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AT PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: It's a pleasure.
COOPER: The U.S. doesn't have a lot of great options here.
SLAUGHTER: No.
At this point, North Korea has gone ahead and done what we have been trying to keep them from doing for a decade, and certainly for the last four years. And, the harder we push, the more belligerent they get.
But now that they have a nuclear weapon, we do have to be absolutely certain that we can do everything possible to prevent them from exporting that technology. So, that's part of what we're trying to do.
COOPER: Why are Russia, China, our other allies in the region, I mean, South Korea, so loathe to have sanctions with teeth?
SLAUGHTER: Well, I think part of it is, they are worried that it will be taken as an act of war. And, indeed, that's what, already, we have seen.
Kim Jong Il has said the sanctions are an act of war. And, of course, you can imagine, if we succeed in interdicting a Korean -- a North Korean ship, you don't know how desperate he is going to get. He could call that, then, an act of war and respond. He could respond against South Korea. He could respond against Japan.
And, suddenly, we really would be in military conflict. So, I think our allies in the region are trying to pursue diplomatic approaches, as well as a sanctions approach. And they are seeing us as pushing on one, but not giving enough weight to the other.
COOPER: There is also a lot of concern in the region -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- about a destabilized North Korea. I mean, a North Korea without Kim Jong Il, I guess some people in the region think, may be even worse than a North Korea with Kim Jong Il.
SLAUGHTER: Well, we -- we have seen some precedent for that in the Middle East, that -- that having chaos in a country that we now know has nuclear material, and perhaps even actual nuclear weapons that they are testing, could be disastrous.
I mean, you really could, then, have armed bands getting hold of this material, exporting it, transferring it, the kind of scenario you sometimes see with Pakistan. So, we -- he's bad. It could be worse. And, certainly, it means hyper-caution, then, in -- in trying to think through the various moves.
COOPER: So, diplomatically, what -- what can be done? I mean, if -- obviously, the U.S. is saying, look, no options are off the table. But, militarily, the options are not great. I mean, Kim Jong Il can rain rockets down. They have a huge supply of chemical weapons, biological agents, likely. They can pretty much obliterate Seoul, South Korea, send in their massive army.
Diplomatically, what can be done?
SLAUGHTER: We have to find a way to allow Kim Jong Il to save some face.
As distasteful as that is to us, and as much as we want to simply stare him down, there's not a good precedent for that, except in the Cuban Missile Crisis, where you had the Soviets pushing on Castro. It is not sure that the Chinese want to -- to push on him, or actually are capable of pushing on him. So, we may well need to find a way to let him save some face, and back down in a way that -- that allows him to preserve his power domestically, as much as we might prefer another alternative.
COOPER: Direct -- direct talks?
SLAUGHTER: I think direct talks. We have -- the debate in this country has been about, do we talk or do we sanction? We need to do both. We need to talk and carry the big stick.
And we're -- we're -- at this point, we have to explore absolutely every option, for legitimacy purposes, but also because we need to try whatever will work.
COOPER: Dean Slaughter, appreciate your expertise. Thank you.
SLAUGHTER: Thank you.
COOPER: Interesting.
COOPER: We mentioned this a bit already. Until Kim Jong Il jump-started his nuclear program, his neighbors had been trying to tempt him back into the global community with trade. Here's the "Raw Data."
Before the sanctions, and before Tokyo unilaterally cut off trade, 12.9 percent of North Korea's experts were -- exports were to Japan; 20.2 percent of exports went to South Korea. Almost half went to China.
Politics and scandal next -- now the other party is doing damage control. The Senate's top Democrat facing questions tonight. David Gergen is here to weigh in on that, and new problems for the GOP as well.
And, later, what John Mark Karr said, and what he said when he thought the cameras weren't rolling.
Stay tuned. You're watching 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So, the midterm elections are just three weeks away now. And the Mark Foley congressional page scandal isn't the only speed bump in the mix. Tonight, both parties are busy doing damage control. Two reports now on new troubles facing each side -- first, the Democrats.
Here's CNN's Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Democratic leader Harry Reid lives in this Ritz-Carlton in Washington. At Christmastime, the Senator gave doormen and other employees $3,300 in tips over three years, a generous gesture, but the money came from Reid's campaign coffers, a possible violation of election law.
SHEILA KRUMHOLZ, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: You do not use campaign donations for personal use. And tipping your doorman or, you know, the condo association just doesn't pass the smell test.
BASH: Reid said his lawyers had assured him it was OK, because of the extra work that comes with having a Senate leader in the building. But, to be safe, he says he is -- quote -- "reimbursing the campaign from my own pocket."
Damage control for the Senate's top Democrat, under fire for potential ethics violations, three weeks before an election in which Democrats are slamming Republicans for a so-called culture of corruption. The Nevada Democrat is also battling questions about a Las Vegas land deal that earned him $700,000 in 2004.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: I bought a piece of land, sold it six years later. Everything was reported. It was all transparent.
BASH: Reid did report to Congress he owned the land and paid taxes on it, but he did not disclose that, three years before selling it, he transferred ownership to a limited liability corporation.
Aides say the senator wanted to develop the land, and made that transfer for legal protection. Reid now says he will amend four years of ethics reports to be more transparent about the deal.
KRUMHOLZ: I would expect that a person who has been in Congress as long as Harry Reid has been would know better to -- to provide as complete a picture as possible.
BASH: For a GOP under siege by scandal, from Mark Foley to new revelations about Congressman Curt Weldon, Reid's troubles give Republicans ammunition to return fire on the campaign trail, like on this Tennessee radio show.
DAN RONAYNE, NATIONAL REPUBLICAN SENATORIAL COMMITTEE: Harry Reid said this whole campaign is going to be about ethics. I think the voters can fairly look at that and say, there is some hypocrisy there.
BASH: (on camera): When voters are asked which party is more ethical, they say Democrats, but by a pretty slim margin. And one pollsters says new reports of scandal in either party probably won't sway voters much, because other issues are shaping the election.
ANDREW KOHUT, PRESIDENT, PEW RESEARCH CENTER: Iraq, the economy, health care and a sense that the country is not on the right course are the major reasons, and President Bush himself, a discontent with his administration, are the reason the Republicans are in big trouble.
BASH: A growing number of voters, he says, are sour on Republicans, but they are not doing handstands over Democrats either.
Dana Bash, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, if the last few months of rocky headlines are anything to go by, it's not just Democrats. The Republicans' political problems are growing -- the latest trouble spot, Pennsylvania, where a 10-term congressman is feeling the heat of an FBI investigation.
More on that now from CNN's Joe Johns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the last thing the GOP needs right now, with the election three weeks away, a Northeast Republican in a razor-close race, a big news story about a federal investigation into whether he steered millions of dollars to his daughter's company.
It comes at a time when Republicans are desperate to get back on message, after scandalous revelations about Mark Foley, Bob Ney, Randy Cunningham, Tom DeLay, all Republican members of Congress.
Weldon says he hasn't done anything wrong, and his daughter hasn't either. Weldon is raising questions about the timing of this.
REP. CURT WELDON (R), PENNSYLVANIA: It is a difficult one. I would not have wished this on anyone. And, three weeks before the election, it makes the campaign that much more difficult.
JOHNS: He's not blaming the FBI or The Justice Department, but suggests that Democrats have forced the FBI's hand.
One problem: The investigation is being handled not by Democrats, but by the Republican Justice Department. And Bob Barr, a former Republican congressman who once held office as a United States attorney, said, investigators try to ignore the political calendar.
BOB BARR, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: They are to follow the evidence when it leads them, where it leads it, at the appropriate time. And they are not to hold back on an investigation or the execution of a search warrant simply because it might be near an election.
JOHNS: The difficulty for Weldon and his party is clear to all.
WELDON: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this district could swing control of the Congress.
JOHNS: Weldon's is hardly the most serious case, given all that has happened this year. But the fear is that the drip, drip, drip of accusations against Republicans could turn into a flood that costs them in close races.
BARR: The danger is, and what ought to be troubling Republicans is, that I think many voters have already tuned them out. They have witnessed, over the last two years, a succession of scandals.
JOHNS: A big danger for Republicans, because, if their core voters stay home in tight contests like this one in Pennsylvania, it is almost as bad for them as a vote for the Democrat.
Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: The latest poll suggest that Republicans could be slipping behind the eight-ball, but they have got 20 days to turn things around.
Coming up: what both parties are going to try to do to win. We will talk to former presidential adviser David Gergen.
Also, love her or hate her, everyone knows her name, but who is the true inspiration behind it? We will set the record straight -- when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Just three weeks until Election Day -- is it enough time for Republicans to turn things around? And what could go wrong for Democrats? Former presidential adviser David Gergen weighs in next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, of all the troubles facing Republicans, some might believe the congressional page scandal is by far the biggest threat. But it may not be as big a problem as Democrats would like it to be.
In a new CNN poll, just over a quarter of respondents said the Mark Foley will be extremely important in how they vote next month. Four other issues ranked higher, however, with terrorism, Iraq topping the list.
With that in mind, I talked to former presidential adviser David Gergen earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So, David, this new poll suggests that most voters think the -- the Foley scandal is not as important as a lot of other issues, the economy, Iraq, terrorism.
Does that surprise you? And is that good news for the Republicans?
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Well, it's encouraging news for the Republicans. At least it's not number one.
But I don't think there's any doubt, still, Anderson, that the Foley story has now bled into the Curt Weldon story, the FBI investigating his -- you know, going into homes and that sort of thing, and has created an aura about this campaign, where corruption of -- and -- of power has very much become a central issue in the conversation in the last three or four weeks of the campaign.
That has not been helpful to Republicans. They have not been able to punch through on the national security arguments they wanted to make and on what they thought they had accomplished in Congress.
And, beyond that, Anderson, the other thing is, it -- it may be good news that Foley is not as high as Iraq. But, when you look at the numbers on Iraq in CNN's polling, what you see is, support for the war is down to 34 percent, the lowest it has been. And the president's own numbers are down.
So, the -- the Republicans can see some encouragement here, but not very much.
COOPER: Well, even on an issue like terrorism, Democrats are scoring better than Republicans right now. And that's -- that's unprecedented.
GERGEN: Absolutely.
I -- you know, this is shaping up as potentially what is called a wave election in politics. And that is when a -- there is just a wave that sweeps across the country, the -- there is a mood. There is a momentum on -- on the -- on one party's side. And they -- and they -- and a lot of candidates come riding in on that wave.
And this -- we had a wave in '94, when the Gingrich revolution came. Republicans rode in. We had a wave back in '74, when Richard Nixon, you know, had just been -- you know, left office and -- in disgrace, and the -- and the -- the Democrats came riding in on a wave.
So, these come periodically. This looks like it might be a wave. We won't know for sure. There's still three weeks left to go. But there are an awful lot of Republicans out there worrying that it is a wave.
COOPER: Some Republicans obviously putting a lot of hope in, you know, candidates having more money, better funded, and also better organization on the ground, in terms of that -- that crucial get-out- the-vote effort.
GERGEN: Sure.
COOPER: Will that make a difference?
GERGEN: It will make a difference in these -- in these closing weeks.
In the -- in the Republican House races that are so close, "The Washington Post" reported today that Republicans incumbents enjoy a lead of about 2-1 in cash going into these last three weeks. That will make a difference in House races, and -- and may be a firewall.
But, if it's a big wave, it won't make enough of a difference. And that's -- that -- you know, it's -- it's -- it is money vs. momentum. And momentum is with the Democrats. A lot of Republicans have the money.
COOPER: Is there anything Republicans can do to -- to stop the momentum or to -- to, you know, break down the wave?
GERGEN: Well, they have to come up with their own issue pretty darn fast. And they are having a hard time finding it. They're having a hard time changing the conversation.
You know, North Korea, it looked, at one point, as if that -- ironically, that there would be a real gift to Republicans on the national security front. But it hasn't really developed as a campaign issue, do you think? I mean, it has -- it is not out there on the tip of everybody's tongue. People are still talking about Foley and -- and Iraq. And -- and there's sort of this sense of arrogance of power and incompetence in power.
And, so, at this point, you would have to say, Anderson, that it is a -- with three weeks left to go -- if the election were held today, I think it's pretty certain the Democrats would win the House. There's still -- they -- they -- it's still hard to win the Senate. But, three weeks out, they are -- they're in very good shape in the House.
COOPER: David Gergen, thanks.
GERGEN: OK. Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Beyond the politics of Iraq, of course, there's the daily death toll. Is the country on the brink of civil war or already there? We will examine that -- coming up.
But next: the chilling words from John Mark Karr, what he said when he didn't know the cameras were rolling.
You're watching 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MARK KARR, ARRESTED IN JONBENET RAMSEY MURDER CASE: My approach to teaching -- working with kids is very holistic. It's not just about the lesson. It's also about making sure that they're just OK in every way. Children are the most wonderful people I've ever found to work with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That was John Mark Karr talking to Larry King last night. And as you'll see, he had a lot more to say, and some of it is, frankly, shocking. And he even reveals just how much he doesn't want you to know about himself.
The following report includes some graphic and disturbing language that may be offensive to some viewers and is not suitable for young children.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): There was the formal interview.
KARR: I don't know. Here we go.
COOPER: And then there was the interview John Mark Karr didn't know was being videotaped.
DR. KEITH ABLOW, HOST, "THE DR. KEITH ABLOW SHOW": What's different from the look on a 6-year-old girl and a 29-year-old girl that you like?
KARR: The girls that I like are uninhibited.
COOPER: It is disturbing.
KARR: I can use this part of my body to go to the toilet. But if I use that thing to somehow reach an orgasm and stimulate myself, then all of a sudden, it comes into a different beast?
COOPER: But that is just the tip of the iceberg. Over several hours Karr spoke to Dr. Keith Ablow, a psychiatrist and the host of a new syndicated TV talk show.
ABLOW: Are you willing to say on camera that it is morally wrong for an adult to be with a child romantically?
KARR: I'm not touching that.
ABLOW: You won't say it's wrong?
KARR: I'm not touching that subject.
ABLOW: I'm giving you the opportunity to say it is morally wrong for an adult to be with a kid.
KARR: I'm not going answer that question.
COOPER: However, Karr did have plenty of answers. During a conversation with Ablow that took place in a production office equipped with a hidden camera.
ABLOW: Do you think that little girls get sexually excited?
KARR: Of course. When you see some little girl or something like going, you know, humping that chair or something, and they're like 4 years old or something that they're just kind of just -- I can't describe it. I'm not them, but it's just it's not I'm not even really sure it's an orgasm they're having. I think it's just kind of like a gratifying thing.
COOPER: Two interviews, two very different sides of one man.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": What caused the whole hoopla?
COOPER: In another interview with CNN's Larry King Monday night, Karr was elusive when it came to discussing his arrest as a suspect in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.
KING: What were you doing? You were working in a private school?
KARR: Yes. I was working in a private school.
KING: How did you end up in jail?
KARR: Again, you're talking about it...
KING: Talk about Thailand with me.
KARR: I'm discussing Thailand, but I would love to discuss my teaching with you, but when it comes to questions that link back to an arrest and the word jail is linked -- linking back to an arrest that has something to do with any investigations that were launched against me in the past. I've been advised strongly by my attorneys not to comment on that.
COOPER: Now listen to what the hidden camera recorded when the Ramsey case came up with Doctor Ablow.
ABLOW: There was an arrest in the case, but this man was completely exonerated, and as you've said shown to be.
KARR: I wasn't completely exonerated. I wasn't completely exonerated. I was released based on DNA evidence that was found that was partial that was contaminated that was taken during a time when DNA evidence was in its infancy.
ABLOW: And you didn't get to give Patsy closure. So in other words, if they had done a more complete investigation?
KARR: Well, first of all, don't forget that the original investigation was full of problems.
ABLOW: Sure. Right, right.
KARR: Contamination left and right. One thing that the -- some of the things that happened, her body was disturbed. Had it not been, and had DNA evidence recovery been sophisticated as it is now. It wasn't.
COOPER: John Mark Karr, a man who continues to baffle and sometimes deeply disturb us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Now the feedback from the man on the other side of the camera in that interview. Doctor Keith Ablow was guest on "LARRY KING LIVE" tonight. Here he is in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABLOW: Mr. Karr told me last night that what did you was not an interview. He said it was misrepresented. Said he didn't know he was being taped. What's the story?
ABLOW: Well, it was certainly an interview. It was a four-hour interview. And he certainly knew he was being taped, because he sat for that interview.
KING: When we see shots of it, though, Keith, why does it appear at times that he's so far away like the camera is sort of hidden?
ABLOW: Well, at times the camera is hidden. There are portions of this interview during which Mr. Karr is -- knows that he's being interviewed and knows he's being taped. And there are portions of this interview that take place in an office where he doesn't know that he's being taped. And what emerges, which is the fascinating part, is two faces of a man.
KING: So your conscience is fully clear that did you nothing unethical and nothing wrong using a hidden camera? That's a technique used a lot?
ABLOW: It is fully legal. It's a technique used a lot. And my conscience would not have been clear, Larry, had I allowed this man to continue to display a face that is not his to the American public.
He's somebody who says he wants to teach again. He's somebody who nearly opened a day care center. And he's in my office saying that if he doesn't commune with little girls sexually that it could damage their self-esteem.
And so we're dealing here, Larry, with a manipulative person. The same man who is able, we fear, to manipulate children into serving his desires.
When you have constructed a face to greet the world, you do it for a reason. You do it because your own feelings feel like the end of the world to you. To be the person you are is to be annihilated.
And no wonder he would be enraged at me for presenting information that portrays him in another light than he wishes to be portrayed. It would be enraging, because we've gone behind the mask.
One thing that became clear on the show is that, while there are pedophiles from whom the desire to be with children sexually is egodistonic. In other words, they don't like it. They want help with it. They consider this wrong and base. He doesn't have any of that conflict. He's somebody who's at peace with his desire to have sex with children.
I think John Mark Karr is a danger to children. He refused to tell me, after all -- one of the questions. Here are the questions he wouldn't answer when the cameras were rolling and he knew it.
He wouldn't say -- four times he had the opportunity to say that he thinks that having sex with kids is wrong. He's not interested in saying that, because he doesn't believe that.
He wouldn't tell me the particular cities around the world and certainly not the schools around the world where he's taught. Well, why? I wonder why. I'm concerned about why. Has there been anybody harmed?
And I'm particularly concerned because a guy who says he has the desire to be with little girls and that it's good for them to be active sexually with him, says he'd make a fine teacher and he'd like to return to the profession. Very concerning. He's a predator.
It is all about John Mark Karr. It's all about him and his needs, physically and sexually. It's all about his need for attention.
What people see here is, I believe, a rare glance into a pedophile and sociopath.
Should anybody live through abuse as a child as John Mark Karr reportedly did? Absolutely not. Was he born evil out of the womb? I don't believe it for a second. He didn't ask for this. He didn't ask to be a danger to others. He just is danger to others. And I wish it hadn't happened to him, and I wish he didn't pose a risk to others.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, of course, words are certainly disturbing but may not be very surprising.
Coming up, we'll talk to our panel of experts. CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Dr. Fred Berlin of the Johns Hopkins Sexual Disorders Clinic.
And on a far lighter note, the truth behind the name of the woman who might just be the president of the United States one day, Hillary Clinton. 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Have you ever had problems with children?
KARR: No. Absolutely not.
KING: All those stories are false?
KARR: There's so much, Larry, that was false. KING: That you can tell me.
KARR: So much. So much that's false.
KING: You never bothered a child?
KARR: No. Absolutely not. I've protected children. I've been -- I've been a teacher for -- this is my tenth year of teaching. I still call myself a teacher. I've heard that some people say, well, he'll never teach again.
KING: So you unequivocally say you have never harmed a child and wouldn't, because you're a teacher, ever harm a child?
KARR: Right.
KING: So then the obvious question is -- you don't have to answer this -- why did you say you did?
KARR: I didn't say that I never harmed a child.
KING: OK.
KARR: I'm saying it right now. I'm saying that I would protect any child who I thought was being harmed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: That was John Mark Karr last night talking to Larry King. We've been hearing more from him tonight, disturbing words from man who says he's simply misunderstood.
Earlier I spoke with Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst, and Dr. Fred Berlin, the Johns Hopkins Sexual Disorders Clinic.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Dr. Berlin, Keith Ablow talked to Karr for four hours, and he says he saw two different people, one who seemed normal and another who talked about a 6-year-old in a sexual way. What do you make of that?
DR. FRED BERLIN, JOHNS HOPKINS SEXUAL DISORDERS CLINIC: Anyone that you're going to catch off camera is going to present a somewhat different than they do on camera. And when he knows he's on camera, he's trying to present himself in the best possible light. He was a bit more candid, and that was a bit more disturbing to hear when he didn't recognize that he was being seen.
COOPER: Do you think he's a pedophile?
BERLIN: Again, I want to be careful here, because you've got to speculate so much. There's some evidence that he was interested in looking at child pornography. He seems to see children in a sexualized way. He doesn't seem to understand the distinction between a child and an adult. On the other hand, with all this notoriety, there hasn't been a single child that's come forward and accused him of sexual misconduct. So I'm worried about him, but at this point is there any hard evidence that he's actually been sexual with a child. Certainly, I haven't seen that.
COOPER: The kind of things, though, you heard him saying and, you know, talking about not -- I forgot the term he used but not limiting children in the way they wanted to express themselves or express their affection. Are those the kind that of things you hear from pedophiles?
BERLIN: Yes. His thought processes are very disturbing, and it doesn't take a psychiatrist to appreciate that. But the real question that we're all wondering about is to what extent is this fantasy life, this imaginary life of his going to get translated into dangerous action.
And that's where it's not so clear. He claims to have killed someone. There's no evidence now that he did. He's a very disturbed person in terms of mental makeup. Will that translate into dangerous behaviors, I would be speculating to try to answer that question.
COOPER: Jeffrey, legally, he kept talking about, in this hidden camera interview, about how he wasn't fully exonerated. The DNA was not a match. Is there any way he could still be convicted in this case, you think?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure. It's not like there's double jeopardy that prevents him from being charged. He could be prosecuted if there was any evidence against him, but as far as I could tell the only evidence is in his just lunatic imagination.
I mean, there's no evidence that this guy was ever in Boulder, much less has ever met JonBenet Ramsey. Ever met JonBenet Ramsey, ever met the family. He's obviously obsessed with them, but I don't think there's any evidence that he had anything to do with them in the real world.
COOPER: Dr. Berlin, why does an adult fantasize in this way about a child?
BERLIN: I'm concerned whether it's even just fantasy or delusional. Has he really lost touch with reality? He still seems to suggest that perhaps in his mind he believes he was there when this youngster died.
So pedophilia has to do with a sexual attraction to children. But there's much more going on here than that. This idea that he was there when this child died. He's thinking that maybe he ought to have a gender change operation.
He is by no means a classic example of pedophilia, even though there are some of those attractions that he appears to be experiencing. COOPER: The child porn charges, Jeff, were I guess thrown out because they basically lost the computer that these images were allegedly on. Does he face anything?
TOOBIN: I don't think so at this point. I think he has no legal jeopardy at all. And frankly, that's pretty disturbing.
COOPER: Because no one is keeping track of him.
TOOBIN: No -- the court system, the legal system has no right to keep track of him, because he has no criminal record. He's not arrested for anything.
COOPER: Dr. Berlin, does that concern you?
BERLIN: Well, yes. I mean, I don't know how anyone couldn't be concerned. And clearly, this is not man who ought to be around children. He has no sense of the appropriate way to set boundaries and how to see children as youngsters.
But again it is that dilemma. I mean, there's lots of folks out there that you or I may think are dangerous, and in a free society who's going to decide which of those people we should deprive of their liberty for a future crime that we think they're going to commit.
So we were all worried about him, but we have to work within the system. And right now it's not clear the system allows us to do very much. I wish the attorneys who he seems to trust so much could convince him to seek some psychological counseling, but certainly at this point he seems very resistant to that idea.
TOOBIN: The one thing that may work in favor of public safety in this case is just at this point he's so famous. He could not really go anywhere applying for a job where I think people wouldn't say, well, you're that crazy guy who's trying to confess to the JonBenet Ramsey case.
So I don't think he's going to be hired anywhere. But you know, time will pass. And he will become less famous, and presumably his psychological problems won't get any better. And some day he really might have access to a kid.
COOPER: Dr. Fred Berlin, Jeff Toobin, thanks.
BERLIN: Thank you.
COOPER: Well, back to politics and Hillary Clinton finally setting the record straight, kind of. The senator, possible presidential candidate, tells the truth about where her name, Hillary, really came from, when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, she was the first lady. May want to be the first woman president, but for now Hillary Rodham Clinton is just keeping people guessing. When it comes to her name, though, however, the secret is finally out.
CNN's Jeanne Moos explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She's become a one- name wonder whose name leaves you wondering. Total strangers call her...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary, how are you doing?
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: I'm good.
MOOS: Newspapers call her Hillary or even "Chillary" when she was mad at Bill.
(on camera) How about Hill? Do you like the word "Hill"?
CLINTON: Well, you know, my brothers have called me that from time to time.
MOOS (voice-over): But the question that has haunted Hillary is one that most folks find pretty easy to answer.
(on camera) The question is what is your first name, and who are you named after?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Diane, after the goddess, the hunter.
MOOS (voice-over): Whether your name is Richard...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think I was named after Richard the Lionhearted.
MOOS: ... or Barbara.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After my grandmother.
MOOS: ... or Donelle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My father's name is Don. They wanted a son, so they named me Donelle. So that's how I got my name. That's true.
MOOS: But the truth about Hillary's name has long been clouded.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hillary Dillary. I don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought she was named after the guy that climbed Mt. Everest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir Edmund Hillary. I didn't know that.
MOOS (on camera): Well, it turns out it's not true.
(voice-over) The story got a boost when Hillary met Sir Edmund Hillary in 1995 and mentioned that her mother used to mention him in connection with her name.
Even Bill Clinton's autobiography describes Sir Edmund Hillary as, "The man Chelsea's mother had been named for."
But a few years back we asked Hillary herself.
CLINTON: The story that I thought as a little girl is not quite right.
She used to tell me that I was named for Sir Edmund Hillary because he, you know, did great things and, you know, climbed Mt. Everest, but the timing is a little off.
MOOS: You see, Hillary was born in 1947, but Sir Edmund Hillary didn't climb Mt. Everest until 1953.
Folks like Jennifer here understand the confusion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My dad also said I was named after that "Jennifer Juniper" song by Donovan. But that's not true either.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, you believe your mom.
MOOS (on camera): Yes, you do.
(voice-over) The other day the "New York Times" made the same old Hillary mistake and had to correct it. The Clinton campaign told the "Times" "It was a sweet family story her mother shared to inspire greatness in her daughter, to great results, I might add."
Tell that to the woman who first told us she was named after the goddess Diana.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was named after Princess Di. Well, if Hillary can make it up, I can, too.
MOOS: Hey, Hillary is setting the record straight. We're the ones making a mountain out of a molehill. Mole Hillary?
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Anderson is my grandmother's maiden name, by the way.
Coming up, the "Shot of the Day". What happened when the U.S. population hit 300 million today? Well, confusion happened. We'll explain.
But first, Erica Hill from Headline News joins us with a 360 bulletin -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Anderson, NATO says it will join forces with Afghanistan's army and police in an effort to bring stability to the country. The new coalition aims to increase security and boost reconstruction and economic development. One of its biggest operations will be securing highways, including a major road that links the capital of Kabul with the city or Herat. Now this has been the bloodiest year in Afghanistan since 2001. More than 3,000 people killed in fighting.
Preliminary damage estimates from an earthquake that rocked Hawaii over the weekend at $46 million right now. President Bush has declared the state a major disaster area. That clears the way for federal aid.
The 6.7 quake was the strongest to hit the island in more than 20 years.
Back on the mainland, a Houston judge has vacated Enron founder Kenneth Lay's convictions on fraud and conspiracy charges, since cannot hear (ph) the verdict. The 64-year-old, as we recall, died in July while he was awaiting sentencing.
Now the ruling terminates the criminal case and its effects on Lay's estate, but it does not impact any civil cases that may be filed in the future related to the collapse of Enron.
Madonna responding to the controversy over her adoption of a Malawian boy last week. The Material Girl saying she and her husband, Guy Ritchie, followed proper adoption procedures. The pop star was reunited with the 1-year-old boy at her London home today. Madonna says she hopes to make the adoption permanent after that 18-month evaluation period -- Anderson.
COOPER: Erica, thanks. Time for "The Shot" today. Yesterday I know, Erica, you were watching. We brought this special hour on the U.S. population hitting the 300 million mark.
HILL: I would never miss an hour, Anderson.
COOPER: How'd you like that hour?
HILL: It was good stuff.
COOPER: Good. Well, the milestone happened this morning at 7:46 Eastern Time, we're told, with the birth of this baby boy, Emanuel Plata in the New York City borough of Queens.
HILL: Wait, wait, wait. Emanuel. Because I thought we hit the 300-million mark this morning here in Atlanta with Kiyah Boyd. He was born in Atlanta today.
COOPER: Well, yes, actually, there's another couple from New York City that says their baby girl, Zoe Emily Hudson, was born today on the Upper East Side and they say she is 390 millionth person.
Yes, as you can see, clearly, there's a controversy over who gets the title. All three babies were born around 7:46. What we know is that all three of them represent the changing face of the U.S.
How's that? HILL: Indeed they do.
COOPER: There you go.
HILL: That's really the good thing. And that they're all doing well.
COOPER: They're all healthy and happy. Congratulations to the parents.
HILL: See you later.
COOPER: We're going to have more late details from North Korea coming up. New signs that the renegade dictatorship is preparing for one or perhaps more nuclear tests.
Then the slaughter in Iraq. Sunnis killing Shias, Shias killing Sunnis, al Qaeda declaring its own state. Does it all add up to civil war, and do those two words change the mission?
Plus deep in the heart of red state America, a Senate race so rough it is leaving the two candidates black and blue.
All that and more when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: New developments from North Korea. Growing signs of another nuclear test or even another round of explosions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: A defiant leader.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's thumbing his nose at the world.
ANNOUNCER: Is North Korea's leader really planning not one but multiple nuclear tests?
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF STATE: Only time will tell.
ANNOUNCER: Can the world wait to act?
As tensions over North Korea mount, so does pressure from Japan. The little girl whose disappearance 30 years ago is fueling a political crisis.
Bible Belt battle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This race will be decisive in determining who controls the United States Senate in the next term.
ANNOUNCER: How a conservative corner of Missouri could tip the scales of power in Washington.
Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360. Reporting tonight from the CNN studios in New York, here's Anderson Cooper.
Reporting tonight from the CNN studios in New York, here is Anderson Cooper.
COOPER: Thanks for joining us.
Get ready for the nuclear crisis with North Korea to deepen. That is how it is looking tonight, a little more than a week after Pyongyang conducted a nuclear test, the Dear Leader, Kim Jong Il, made his first public appearance.
More chilling, though, is the appearance at a number of potential test sites of new preparations for more explosions.
We begin with CNN's Barbara Starr.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the North Korean capital, Pyongyang, a lavish celebration of the communist regime's accomplishments over the past 80 years was broadcast to the world.
But intelligence analysts were looking at different images, images that were picked up from a remote area far outside the capital, and showed what could be preparations for a second underground nuclear test.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There is speculation that they may want to do something additional. There's also speculation they may not. So, only time will tell.
STARR: According to intelligence and military officials, U.S. spy satellites have seen signs of activity again at several North Korean sites that could be used for nuclear tests.
The Bush administration isn't sure what it all means. At two of the sites, small structures have been put up, perhaps to keep the preparations hidden. U.S. officials say, what worries them most is that the new activity is very similar to what happened just before the first test.
The U.S. is also closely monitoring statements by senior North Korean officials and military leaders that indicate additional nuclear tests are in the works, possibly at three sites.
One thing that got analysts' attention was a statement on North Korean television that the U.N. sanctions are -- quote -- "a declaration of war." Intelligence analysts know that kind of rhetoric has been increasing anxiety in China in recent days. There are worries additional tests would further destabilize the region.
The U.S. believes a defiant Kim Jong Il might soon pursue a second test, because the first test seems to have partially failed, and he may want to prove he has a nuclear weapon that works. JAMES LILLEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH KOREA: He's thumbing his nose at the world. He's going to do this and get his people mobilized. He's going to appeal to all of his Third World friends in Iran, Venezuela, Castro in Cuba, Shahir (ph) in -- in Sudan. These are his people. He is saying: I can stand up. This is my nuke.
It's a show.
STARR (on camera): U.S. officials say they simply can't predict what North Korea might do. But, at this point, there is such concern about the possibility of a second test, that officials say their best hope might be getting China for exert whatever influence it may have over North Korea.
Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, even before North Korea entered the nuclear club, Seoul, South Korea, was already within range of thousands of conventional rockets and artillery pieces, not to mention more than a million North Korean troops. For South Koreans, it has been an edgy week so far.
CNN's Dan Rivers joins us now from Seoul with the reaction to the latest developments -- Dan.
DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think people here are used to decades of this bellicose language coming out of North Korea.
Certainly, now things -- things seem to be ratcheting up even further, with possibilities of a second test being raised. Certainly, when other countries, in the past, have conducted nuclear tests, they have done a number of tests. Pakistan, for example, conducted six tests in total, when it developed its bomb back in 1998.
I have been talking to one senior lecturer here, a -- a professor in international relations. And he was saying this. Look, North Korea is on the road to developing its nuclear deterrent. And there's no turning back. Kim Jong Il is all about preserving his regime. And he sees the best way to do that is to having a nuclear deterrent.
He does not want to go to war, but he is certainly not scared of a few sanctions. And he's not scared of the international community condemning him. And this professor was telling me, it's highly likely that there will be other tests -- Anderson.
COOPER: So, when North Koreans are saying this is a declaration of war, South Koreans say that that -- that's just talk?
RIVERS: I think no one seriously expects the North Koreans to invade or to cross the DMZ.
I think Kim Jong Il knows, if he did that, it would all be over. You know, there would be massive retaliatory reaction by the United States. They -- they would have air superiority within hours, and it would all be over.
I think what is worrying people is that they are now fast- tracking their program to a nuclear deterrent. And the problem is, if Kim Jong Il, in the future, feels cornered, he will then have his finger on a button. And that will then put us in a completely different ballpark.
At the moment, he has a -- a device that he's exploded, but no way of delivering that on a missile. He has got that miniaturize that device to get it deliverable. And -- and, at the moment, it seems like they're going, you know, hell for leather to try and achieve that -- Anderson.
COOPER: Dan Rivers reporting from Seoul -- thanks, Dan.
While North Korea defies the world, its people continue to suffer. Millions in the communist state are starving, sick and desperate. Few are allowed into the country. But those who enter come away with stories that seem like nightmares. Only, they are all too real.
A few months ago, National Geographic Channel correspondent Lisa Ling went inside North Korea. She didn't say she was a journalist. Instead, she posed an as eye surgeon's assistant.
I spoke to Lisa Ling earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Lisa, you have been to a lot of places around the world. Is North Korea the freakiest place you have been?
LISA LING, CORRESPONDENT, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL: Well, it's the place that I have wanted to visit most, just because it's so isolated.
Is it the freakiest? It's -- it's certainly -- it's definitely a strange place, because they have been able to remain in this bubble, with no access whatsoever to the outside world.
COOPER: What's it like just, you know, traveling around, driving around? What does it look like? What does it feel like?
LING: Well, North Korea is actually a -- a stunningly beautiful country.
The thing that struck me, initially, was just that there was no advertising whatsoever, not a single, you know, Budweiser ad, or anything like that, nothing, with the exception of communist propaganda, you know, pictures depicting the Great Leader and the Dear Leader. And that's about it.
COOPER: And he's -- and his pictures are everywhere.
LING: Oh, yes, everywhere. COOPER: The people you talked to obviously weren't necessarily free to -- to speak their minds. But did they seem to believe the -- the rhetoric of -- of the Dear Leader?
LING: They -- they certainly did seem to believe it.
And you're right. Even if people did feel like expressing any kind of disdain or dissent, they wouldn't be able to, because we had six escorts with us the entire time.
But I do believe that the majority of people do believe -- they believe whatever Kim Jong Il tells them to believe, because they don't -- they don't know anything otherwise.
COOPER: I want to play a quick bite from one of the things you shot there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LING: So, I brought a couple of these fashion magazines in from China. And one of our escorts came in and said -- saw me reading them, and said, "Don't leave them here."
And I said, "Why?"
He goes, "Don't leave them lying around, because, you know, Korean peoples might get ideas."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, anything from the outside, even a -- even a magazine, is forbidden?
LING: Something as innocuous as a magazine.
There are two television stations in North Korea, and they consist entirely of communist propaganda, and -- and -- and shows about Kim Il-Sung's struggle for the people. There are very few books and magazines. And, again, those are all exclusively about the -- the -- the Dear Leader and his daily activities -- no Internet whatsoever, as we said, no telephone contact.
So, it really is such a bubble. And, you know, you have been to Iran, Anderson. Even in Iran, people travel back and forth between the U.S. and that country all the time. They have satellite dishes there. But, in North Korea, they have nothing of the sort.
COOPER: You got in pretending to be an assistant to a -- a cataract surgeon who was there to do operations. The very fact that all these people have cataracts is a sign of just how badly they're being cared for by the government there.
LING: Well, it was a really interesting entree into the country. In the Western world, you would never see someone with very mature cataracts, because, once someone gets a cataract here in the U.S., they have an operation, and they fix it immediately. But, in North Korea, I saw young people, in their early 20s, that had cataracts that were so mature, that they hadn't had vision for about 10 years. And that's a sign that they're really lacking in resources.
COOPER: And, as soon as the -- the -- the masks were taken off, in some cases, what did they do?
LING: It -- it was stunning.
They performed operations on over 1,000 people. And hundreds of them, as soon as they took the patches off, they didn't thank the -- the doctor who performed the operation. They rushed to the pictures of the great leaders, and profusely began to thank them, which was a little confounding.
COOPER: Lisa Ling, appreciate it. Thanks.
LING: Thanks, Anderson.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Tomorrow tonight, Lisa Ling is going to host a special report on the National Geographic Channel, looking at the world's most dangerous drug, methamphetamine. It's considered one of the hardest addictions to quit. That's tomorrow night on the National Geographic Channel.
Next, though, tonight, more from inside North Korea -- a dark secret. The government has kidnapped children from another country and forced them into slavery -- that story coming up.
Also, just how close is Iraq to a civil war? Is it already there? And what does it mean for U.S. forces caught in the middle?
Plus, tonight, with midterm elections now just three weeks away, Republicans facing tight races, even in the Bible Belt -- the CNN Election Express takes us there, when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Il, was among the thousands at a celebration of the communist state. It was his first public appearance since last week's nuclear test.
And, as we mentioned earlier, there are new signs tonight of nuclear activity in North Korea, not one, but three potential test sites. All this has brought international condemnation.
But there's another, lessen known controversy that has created political tension between North Korea and its neighbors for decades.
CNN's Tom Foreman explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It began on the Japanese coast in 1977, a mystery that was little noticed then, but now shakes the shores of two nations.
A 13-year-old girl did not come home from school. Her mother was cooking dinner, her twin brothers playing. Megumi Yokota was expected any moment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I thought it was getting late and she wasn't home yet. I turned off the stove and ran to the school. When I looked in the gym, there were no badminton players. At that moment, I felt a chill. We grabbed a flashlight and started yelling, 'Megumi! Megumi!'
Now, in a haunting new documentary, American filmmakers Patty Kim and her husband, Chris Sheridan, are telling the story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): My wife told me Megumi hadn't come home yet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I told him get home now.
But this is more than a family's loss. Nearly 30 years later, the disappearance is rattling the highest levels of Asian governments, even affecting nuclear arms talk.
PATTY KIM, FILMMAKER: It's a personal tragedy that has now evolved into one of the most talked about and most emotionally charged political crises in Asia.
FOREMAN: The reason lies in North Korea. After years of waiting, worrying and asking questions, Megumi's family stumbled on to a horrible truth. Their daughter and at least a dozen other Japanese citizens had been snatched by North Korean agents.
CHRIS SHERIDAN, FILMMAKER: These were average, normal Japanese people, cooks, clerks, a carpenter, people who had -- were not particularly well-educated, but were just average, regular people. And that was the whole point.
(CROSSTALK)
SHERIDAN: Yes, that was the whole point, was to get people who were normal, who could basically exhibit the kind of traits that the average, everyday person exhibits that we take for granted, but that foreigners wouldn't quite understand.
FOREMAN: They were, in short, slaves, forced to teach language and cultural skills to North Korean spies.
KIM: These North Korean spies would then go out, using Japanese passports and their new identity, to carry out missions for North Korea.
There is one incredibly dramatic and tragic example of how this program did, in fact, work.
FOREMAN: In late 1987, just months before the Olympics in Seoul, South Korea, two North Korean agents were apparently sent to disrupt the Games. They posed as Japanese citizens, and planted a bomb on a plane headed for South Korea. Everyone on board died, 115 people.
The North Korean government denied involvement. But the saboteurs did not get away.
KIM: The female spy was captured by authorities, and she later confessed that her teachers, the people who taught her to speak Japanese and -- and taught her everything she had to learn to be a Japanese person, was a woman who had been abducted from the shores of Japan.
FOREMAN: The North Koreans eventually admitted to some abductions. And ever since, the fate of the abductees has become a scorching issues for Japanese political leaders.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You should be ashamed. You haven't done a thing.
FOREMAN: The families of the missing have pressed hard for answers, even as Japan has tried to ease historic tensions with North Korea in recent years.
(on camera): The result? Even after North Korea returned some surviving abductees, many Japanese citizens remain convinced that scores more are still in captivity, along with perhaps hundreds of South Korean kidnap victims.
(voice-over): The Japanese keep pressing, putting more tension on the already strained nuclear arms debate. Even President Bush has acknowledged the issue.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have just had one of the most moving meetings since I have been the president.
FOREMAN: He met Megumi's mother earlier this year, and, just this week, spoke again about her horrible story.
BUSH: It broke my heart. And it should break everybody's heart. But it speaks to the nature of the regime.
FOREMAN: So, what has become the Megumi? Under the relentless pressure from Japan, the North Koreans finally said she committed suicide years ago. But her parents think that is a lie, too.
(on camera): Does she believe her daughter is alive?
SHERIDAN: Absolutely. The parents, unequivocally, believe that their daughter is alive. North Korea says she's dead. Japan believes she is alive. And there's plenty of evidence on both sides.
FOREMAN (voice-over): The North Koreans say they produced this picture of Megumi as an adult. And they also say she married and gave birth to this girl, who is now 18 and bears a startling resemblance to the Japanese grandmother she has never met.
What we know for sure is this: If Megumi is alive, she would have turned 42 this month.
Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And how many more others are there just like her in North Korea, still?
Straight ahead, the heated debate over what -- what to call what's going on in Iraq. Is it a civil war? And, if it is, what does it change about the American mission there?
Later, the twisted words of John Mark Karr, caught when he did not know the cameras were rolling.
You're watching 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get up! Get up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get up!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We turn tonight to the daily and growing violence in Iraq, and words.
Nearly 30 years ago, the United States was on the brink of a serious recession. And the president's top economist was saying so publicly -- that is, until the president, not wanting the very use of the word to bring on a recession, told him to cut it out, to stop saying recession.
So, in his very next speech, this economist, Alfred Kahn, substituted the word banana instead. The point is that words can scare people. And, three decades later, when it comes to Iraq, two words seem to trouble this administration: civil war. Is there one?
CNN's Tom Foreman takes a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN (voice-over): As coalition forces have handed more control to the Iraqi military, insurgents have tested their strength. Violence has spiked. And so have the voices of international affair analysts, saying, now, a civil war is under way.
The Shia, the largest group of Iraqis, control the east and south. And they are fighting with the minority Sunnis, who control the west, and used to run everything under Saddam. And the Kurds are holding on in the north.
MAJOR GENERAL DONALD SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Just, some of it is ethnic hatred, if you will. But it's clearly, in my mind, some type of civil war. We're just afraid to say it.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, the -- I hear a lot of talk about civil war. I -- I'm concerned about that, of course.
FOREMAN: The administration hesitates to call it civil war, because coalition troops, while under constant fire, are keeping the Iraqi factions from massing soldiers, from gathering large quantities of arms, and launching broad offensives against each other, hallmarks of a classic civil war.
And, of course, there are political and security considerations.
(on camera): If full-scale, open civil war erupts, and fractures this fledgling democracy, it will certainly be seen a major defeat for the United States. And Iraq could well turn into a prime, long-term staging ground for terrorism.
(voice-over): So, why do some Iraqis seem hell-bent on rushing towards civil war? Besides centuries of conflict, there is a modern cause: oil.
If Iraq can ever stabilize and start pumping its oil at full capacity, it could become a wealthy nation. And no faction wants to see another one grab too much control of that asset.
SHEPPERD: The problem is, you have got oil in the north. You have got oil in the south. You have no oil in the west, where the Sunnis are.
FOREMAN: So, as coalition countries seem to be growing weary of the fighting, many Iraqis seem increasingly poised for a showdown on their country's future, whether that's called a civil war or not.
Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, earlier today, on the Rush Limbaugh radio show, Vice President Cheney weighed in. He said the new Iraqi government, all things considered, is off to a good start.
Some perspective now from two points of view. Samer Shehata is a professor of politics at Georgetown University's Center For Contemporary Arab Studies. And Anne-Marie Slaughter is dean of Princeton's Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.
Appreciate both of you being with us.
Samer, you say that this looks like the beginnings of a civil war. What, if anything, can be done about that?
SAMER SHEHATA, PROFESSOR OF POLITICS, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY CENTER FOR CONTEMPORARY ARAB STUDIES: Well, I think a number of things can be done about that.
I mean, the first thing, obviously, is to get the warring parties, as it were, to back off a little bit. And that has to do with political negotiation and political inclusion, particularly making Sunni Iraqis feel like they have a stake in the future of a single Iraq.
There are other things that can be done about that, too. And that is stopping Shia militias from launching attacks on Sunnis. And -- and there have been proposals that would address that, for example, including Iran, a backer of many Shia militias, in the negotiations about the future of Iraq, vesting them in the future of Iraq, as it were.
So, there are a number of things that can be done to bring us back from the precipice of a civil war, which I think we're really at.
COOPER: Anne-Marie, what I didn't hear Samer say is military solutions. Are -- are there military solutions? Or does this have to be a diplomatic, political solution?
ANNE-MARIE SLAUGHTER, DEAN, WOODROW WILSON SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AND INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AT PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: I think it has to be a diplomatic solution.
The -- the military solution, we have been trying that. And it's not working. I mean, it -- I think we actually are in a civil war. You can call it a low-intensity civil war, rather than a full-scale civil war. But we're seeing about 3,000 people dying a month, and the violence escalating, and Shia militias penetrating the government forces, fighting the Sunnis. It would actually...
COOPER: So, do you try -- do you try to bring Syria, do you try to bring Iran more into it?
SLAUGHTER: You do. And it would actually help if we acknowledged that what we are seeing is a civil war, and it's going to get worse.
Neither Syria, nor Iran wants a full-scale civil war in Iraq. And if we want to bring them to the negotiating table -- and -- and Secretary James Baker is indicating that this may well be part of the solution his commission recommends -- then, facing the facts and saying, look, we have got a -- a civil war, we have got to figure out now how to stop that civil war, and get to a government we can actually negotiate with.
COOPER: Samer, why -- why does that matter, to acknowledge if it is a civil war or not?
SHEHATA: Well, I think that, if we acknowledge the -- the fact that it's close to a civil war -- and whether it's a civil war or not, America's misadventure in Iraq has been almost an unmitigated disaster -- that will lead us to reassessing the situation, and changing our strategy, as opposed to staying the course.
Staying the course has got us nowhere. And, if we acknowledge that things are very bad, and, in fact, getting worse, that -- as I said, that we're on the precipice of a civil war here, that maybe we will change things. We will include Iran, include Iraq, include the Saudis more, the Kuwaitis, the Turks, who have an interest in this also. Maybe we will think about, you know, increasing troop strength, or -- or decreasing troop strength, or changing the makeup of troops.
Maybe we will think differently about the situation, and change course, to try to make matters better.
COOPER: But you talk about -- Anne-Marie, you were talking about including Iran. Isn't that part of the problem, as far as the U.S., or as far as this administration is concerned, the influence of Iran, the -- the influence they already have, agents on the ground, inside -- inside Iraq?
SLAUGHTER: I think, if -- if we could get to a situation in which Iran was not interfering, and the government that we're supporting could create security, that's what we would want. That's the -- the best scenario.
But we're -- we're not there, and we can't actually stop Iran from supporting the Shiite militias, without bringing Iran to the negotiating table, with Syria, with others in the region.
The best way that you do that is to get everyone to recognize that a civil conflict that spills over into the region as a whole, it will be even far worse than what we have now.
We also have to get the Iraqi government itself -- or, rather, the -- the warring parties in Iraq -- to accept more of the responsibility, rather than propping up, at this point, a government that is not able to establish security.
COOPER: Yes, no -- no easy solution, that.
Anne-Marie Slaughter, appreciate it.
And, Samer Shehata, thank you very much for your expertise.
Thanks.
Whatever you call what is happening in Iraq, young Americans are paying a heavy price. Here's the "Raw Data."
As of last month, according to the Brookings Institution, at least 808 of the U.S. troops killed were younger than 22; 631 were between the ages of 22 and 24; 667 were 25 to 30 years old; 283 were between 31 and 35. And 317 were older than 35.
Iraq may well be a deciding issue in the midterm elections next month. And, believe it or not, one race could make all the difference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY NORDLER, MISSOURI STATE SENATE: This race will be decisive in determining who controls the United States Senate in the next term.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Coming up, why so much may be riding on this one race in a corner of the Bible Belt.
And John Mark Karr said one thing when he knew the cameras were rolling. Wait until you hear what the hidden camera caught. Two interviews, two sides of a troubled man, when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: It's been 18 days since former Congressman Mark Foley resigned in the wake of the congressional page scandal. And since then, Republicans have been in full-scale damage-control mode. With midterm elections now just three weeks away, tonight, CNN's "Election Express" takes us to a corner of the Bible Belt where a Senate race is tightening and the stakes are enormous. Both sides know it, especially the Republicans.
CNN's John King reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you turn your forms in, if you've filled out a 72-hour form...
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Southwest Missouri is conservative country, the Bible Belt. The stakes of this year's Senate race lost on no one.
GARY NORDLER, MISSOURI STATE SENATE: This race will be decisive in determining who controls the United States Senate in the next term.
KING: Introduction over, incumbent Republican Jim Talent quickly draws distinctions he thinks will make a difference in these parts.
SEN. JIM TALENT (R), MISSOURI: I believe marriage is a relationship between a man and a woman.
(APPLAUSE)
TALENT: And so I supported the marriage amendment to the United States Constitution, and my opponent didn't. I supported the ban on partial birth abortions. She's opposed to that.
CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: Go Cardinals.
KING: State Auditor Claire McCaskill lost a close race for governor two years ago because big margins in St. Louis and Kansas City were not enough to offset a dismal showing in rural communities. MCCASKILL: Big mistake. I've been to rural Missouri constantly in this race. I've listened. They're frustrated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have a moment I can ask a couple questions?
KING: At GOP headquarters in conservative Joplin, calls to Republican voters do turn up evidence some are looking elsewhere this time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you support Senator Jim Talent or Auditor Claire McCaskill for the United States Senate? McCaskill, OK.
KING: At Joplin's 1st Presbyterian Church, Pastor Cliff Mansley predicts talk of major conservative angst will be proven wrong come Election Day.
REV. CLIFF MANSLEY, 1ST PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH: There are going to be some people who are frustrated with what they see, but I think that's a fairly small percentage of people in terms of how they vote.
KING: But in this race, in similar Senate contests in Ohio, Virginia, and Tennessee, just a small shift in rural communities could be enough for Democrats, and Talent's sharpening attacks reflect GOP jitters. At a debate Monday night in conservative Springfield, he demanded McCaskill release her husband's tax returns.
TALENT: And we have reason to believe that maybe she and her husband haven't paid all of them.
KING: McCaskill called it a desperate smear. Four years ago, Talent and the president campaigned shoulder-to-shoulder in southwest Missouri; this year, not one mention of Mr. Bush in the senator's 15- minute stump speech.
TALENT: Because he's not running in the race.
KING: It's one of those little differences that could affect the margins in the Bible Belt and the balance of power in Washington.
(on camera): So consider Missouri the Republican Senate firewall. The GOP figures, if it can hold this seat, it is all but certain to hold its Senate majority. And as a result, it's pouring in significant resources for late campaign TV ads and an aggressive voter turnout effort.
John King, CNN, Kansas City, Missouri.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, from politics we head back to the water cooler story of the week, John Mark Karr. Coming up, what he had to say when he knew the cameras were rolling and when he thought he was behind closed doors. You're watching 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARR: Children are the most wonderful people I've ever found to work with. They're just intelligent, and colorful, and energetic, and creative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: John Mark Karr, the former schoolteacher who confessed to killing JonBenet Ramsey, he's now speaking out very publicly, even as he says he wants to keep his privacy. Yesterday, he told his side of the story on "LARRY KING LIVE." He's also been interviewed by talk show hosts and psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow.
And here's where things get kind of creepy. The following report includes graphic and disturbing language that may be offensive to some viewers and is not suitable for young children.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): There was the formal interview...
KARR: I said I don't want to answer that.
(CROSSTALK)
KARR: For Pete's sake, here we go.
COOPER: And then there was the interview John Mark Karr didn't know was being videotaped.
KARR: What's different from the look on a 6-year-old girl and a 29-year-old girl that you like? Girls that I like are uninhibited.
COOPER: It is disturbing.
KARR: I can use this part of my body to go to the toilet. But if I use that thing to somehow reach an orgasm and stimulate myself, then all of a sudden it comes into a different beast?
COOPER: But that is just the tip of the iceberg. Over several hours, Karr spoke to Dr. Keith Ablow, a psychiatrist and the host of a new syndicated TV talk show.
DR. KEITH ABLOW, TV HOST: Are you willing to say on camera that is morally wrong for an adult to be with a child romantically?
KARR: Uh-uh. I'm not touching that.
ABLOW: You won't say it's wrong?
KARR: I'm not touching that subject.
ABLOW: I'm giving you the opportunity to say, "It is morally wrong for an adult to be with a kid."
KARR: I'm not going to answer that question.
COOPER: However, Karr did have plenty of answers during a conversation with Ablow that took place in a production office equipped with a hidden camera.
ABLOW: Do you think that little girls get sexually excited?
KARR: Of course. When you see some little girl or something like going -- you know, humping that chair or something, and they're like 4 years old, or something -- they're just kind of -- I can't describe it. I'm not them, but it's just -- it's not -- I'm not even really sure it's an orgasm they're having. I think it's just kind of like a gratifying thing.
COOPER: Two interviews, two very different sides of one man.
KING: ... what caused the whole hoopla...
COOPER: In another interview with CNN's Larry King Monday night, Karr was elusive when it came to discussing his arrest as a suspect in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.
KING: What were you doing? You were working in a private school?
KARR: Yes, I was working in a private school.
KING: How did you end up in jail?
KARR: Again, you're talking about an investigation...
KING: Well, you said you would discuss Thailand with me.
KARR: I'm discussing Thailand, but I would love to discuss my teaching with you. But when it comes to questions that link back to an arrest, and the word "jail" is linking back to an arrest, that has something to do with any investigations that were launched against me in the past, I've been advised strongly by my attorneys not to comment on that.
COOPER: Now listen to what the hidden camera recorded when the Ramsey case came up with Dr. Ablow.
ABLOW: There was an arrest in the case, but this man was completely exonerated and, as you've said, shown to be...
KARR: I wasn't completely exonerated. I wasn't completely exonerated. I was released based on DNA evidence that was found, that was partial, that was contaminated, that was taken during a time when DNA evidence was in its infancy.
ABLOW: And you didn't get to give Patsy closure. So, in other words, if they had done a more complete investigation...
KARR: Well, first of all, don't forget that the original investigation was full of problems. ABLOW: True, right, right.
KARR: You had contamination left and right. One thing that -- some of the things that happened, her body was disturbed. And had it not been and had DNA evidence recovery been sophisticated as it is now, it wasn't.
COOPER: John Mark Karr, a man who continues to baffle and sometimes deeply disturb us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, now the feedback from the man on the other side of the camera, Dr. Keith Ablow, who was a guest on "LARRY KING LIVE" tonight. Here he is in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Mr. Karr told me last night that what you did was not an interview, said it was misrepresented, said he didn't know he was being taped. What's the story?
ABLOW: Well, it was certainly an interview. It was a four-hour interview, and he certainly knew he was being taped because he sat for that interview.
KING: When we see shots of it, though, Keith, why does it appear at times like he's so far away, like the camera's sort of hidden?
ABLOW: Well, at times the camera is hidden. There are portions of this interview during which Mr. Karr knows that he's being interviewed and knows he's being taped. And there are portions of this interview that take place in an office where he doesn't know that he's being taped. And what emerges, which is the fascinating part, is two faces of a man.
KING: So your conscience is fully clear that you did nothing unethical, nothing wrong using a hidden camera, that's a technique used a lot?
ABLOW: It's fully legal. It's a technique used a lot. And my conscience would not have been clear, Larry, had I allowed this man to continue to display a face that is not his to the American public. He's somebody who says he wants to teach again. He's somebody who nearly opened a daycare center. And he's in my office saying that, if he doesn't commune with little girls sexually, that it could damage their self-esteem. And so we're dealing here, Larry, with a manipulative person, the same man who is able, we fear, to manipulate children into serving his base desires.
When you have constructed a face to greet the world, you do it for a reason. You do it because your own feelings feel like the end of the world to you. To be the person you are is to be annihilated.
And no wonder he would be enraged at me for presenting information that portrays him in another light than he wishes to be portrayed. It would be enraging, because we've gone behind the mask.
One thing that became clear on the show is that, while there are pedophiles for whom the desire to be with children sexually is egodystonic -- in other words, they don't like it, they want help with it, they consider this wrong in base -- he doesn't have any of that conflict. He's somebody who's at peace with his desire to have sex with children.
I think John Mark Karr is a danger to children. He refused to tell me, after all -- one of the questions -- here are the questions he wouldn't answer when the cameras were rolling and he knew it. He wouldn't say -- four times he had the opportunity to say that he thinks that having sex with kids is wrong. He's not interested in saying that because he doesn't believe that.
He wouldn't tell me the particular cities around the world, and certainly not the schools around the world, where he's taught. Well, why? I wonder why. I'm concerned about why. Has there been anybody harmed?
And I'm particularly concerned because a guy who says he has the desire to be with little girls and that it's good for them to be active sexually with him says he'd make a fine teacher and he'd like to return to the profession. Very concerning. He's a predator.
It's all about John Mark Karr. It's all about him and his needs, physically and sexually. It's all about his need for attention. What people see here is, I believe, a rare glance into a pedophile and sociopath.
Should anybody live through abuse as a child, as John Mark Karr reportedly did? Absolutely not. Was he born evil out of the womb? I don't believe it for a second. He didn't ask for this. He didn't ask to be a danger to others. He just is a danger to others. And I wish it hadn't happened to him, and I wish he didn't pose a risk to others.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So is he or isn't he a threat to young children, especially little girls? Coming up, CNN's senior legal Jeffrey Toobin and Dr. Fred Berlin of the Johns Hopkins Sexual Disorders Clinic weigh in on the words from John Mark Karr.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, you've heard those chilling words from John Mark Karr, two different sides from two different views. Earlier, I spoke to CNN's senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, and Dr. Fred Berlin of the Johns Hopkins Sexual Disorders Clinic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Dr. Berlin, Keith Ablow talked to Karr for four hours, and he says he saw two different people, one who seemed normal, another who talked about a 6-year-old in a sexual way. What do you make of that? BERLIN: Well, first of all, anyone that you're going to catch off-camera is going to present somewhat different than they do on- camera. And when he's knowing he's on camera, he's trying to present himself in the best possible light. He was a bit more candid, and that was a bit more disturbing to hear when he didn't recognize that he was being seen.
COOPER: Do you think he's a pedophile?
BERLIN: Again, I want to be careful here, because he's got us speculating so much. There's some evidence that he was interested in looking at child pornography. He seems to see children in a sexualized way. He doesn't seem to understand the distinction between a child and an adult.
On the other hand, with all this notoriety, there hasn't been a single child that's come forward and accused him of sexual misconduct. So I'm worried about him. But at this point, is there any hard evidence that he's actually been sexual with a child? Certainly I haven't seen that.
COOPER: The kind of things, though, you heard him saying -- and, you know, talking about not -- I forgot the term he used, but not limiting children in the way they wanted to express themselves or express their affection, are those the kinds of things you hear from pedophiles?
BERLIN: Yes, his thought processes are very disturbing, and it doesn't take a psychiatrist to appreciate that. But the real question that we're all wondering about is, to what extent is this fantasy life, this imaginary life of his going to get translated into dangerous action? And that's where it's not so clear.
He claimed to have killed someone; there's no evidence now that he did. So he's a very disturbed person, in terms of his mental makeup. Will that translate into dangerous behaviors? I would simply be speculating to try to answer that question.
COOPER: Jeffrey, legally, you know, he kept talking about in this hidden camera interview about how he wasn't fully exonerated. The DNA was not a match. Is there any way he can still be convicted in this case?
TOOBIN: Sure. It's not like there's double jeopardy that prevents him from being charged. He could be prosecuted, if there was any evidence against him. But as far as I could tell, the only evidence is in his just lunatic imagination. I mean, there's no evidence that this guy was ever in Boulder, much less...
COOPER: There's no evidence he ever met JonBenet Ramsey.
TOOBIN: Ever met JonBenet Ramsey, ever met the family. He's obviously obsessed with them, but I don't think there's any evidence that he had anything to do with them in the real world.
COOPER: Dr. Berlin, why does an adult fantasize in this way about a child?
BERLIN: Well, I am concerned whether it's even just fantasy or delusional. Has he really lost touch with reality? He still seems to suggest that, perhaps in his mind, he believes he was there when this youngster died.
So pedophilia has to do with a sexual attraction to children, but there's much more going on here than that, this idea that he was there when this child died. He's thinking that maybe he ought to have a gender change operation. He is by no means a classic example of pedophilia, even though there are some of those attractions that he appears to be experiencing.
COOPER: The child porn charges, Jeff, were, I guess, thrown out because they basically lost the computer that these images were allegedly on. Does he face anything?
TOOBIN: I don't think so at this point. I think he has no legal jeopardy at all. And, frankly, that's pretty disturbing.
COOPER: You mean, because no one's keeping track of him?
TOOBIN: Well, the court system, the legal system has no right to keep track of him because he has no criminal record. He's not arrested for anything.
COOPER: Dr. Berlin, does that consider you?
BERLIN: Well, yes, I mean, I don't know how anyone couldn't be concerned. And, clearly, this is not a man who ought to be around children. He has no sense of the appropriate way to set boundaries and how to see children as youngsters.
But, again, it is that dilemma. I mean, there's lots of folks out there that you or I might think are dangerous. And in a free society, who's going to decide which of those people we should deprive of their liberty for a future crime that we think they're going to commit?
So we all are worried about him, but we have to work within the system. And right now, it's not clear the system allows us do very much. I wish the attorneys who he seems to trust so much could convince him to seek some psychological counseling, but certainly at this point he seems very resistant to that idea.
TOOBIN: The one thing that may work in favor of public safety in this case is just at this point he's so famous. I mean, he could not really go anywhere, applying for a job where I think people wouldn't say, "Oh, well, you're that crazy guy who's trying to confess to the JonBenet Ramsey case." So I don't think he's going to be hired anywhere. But, you know, time will pass. And he will become less famous. And presumably his psychological problems won't get any better, and someday he really might have access to a kid.
COOPER: Dr. Fred Berlin, Jeffrey Toobin, thanks.
BERLIN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Let's get you up to date on what else is happening today. Erica Hill from Headline News has a 360 bulletin -- Erica?
ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Anderson, the U.S. has offered to take in up to 10,000 refugees from the civil war in the African country of Burundi. Now, they'd be allowed to live here permanently. They'd be given the opportunity to apply for U.S. citizenship. More than 200,000 Burundians were killed in the 12-year civil war before a cease-fire was arranged last month by the U.N.
In Iowa, a day in court for the man accused of one of the state's worst mass killings. Relatives fought back tears as Shawn Bentler faced a judge on charges he killed his parents and three teenage sisters early Saturday. He was later arrested in Quincy, Illinois. Authorities say they have yet to discover a motive for the shootings.
On Wall Street, inflation worries pushing the Dow down, keeping it away from that record-setting 12,000 mark. The Dow actually lost 30 points in the session. The Nasdaq dropped nearly 19. The S&P fell five.
And he may not have been Walter Cronkite, but to millions of kids Christopher Glenn was the news. He brought the world into millions of Saturday morning homes as narrator of CBS's "In the News." He was also a veteran radio man, anchoring many programs over his 35-year career, including the "World News Roundup," the longest running news program in broadcasting. Christopher Glenn died suddenly at a hospital in Norwalk, Connecticut. He'd only just retired.
Christopher Glenn, Anderson, was 68.
COOPER: It's so sad. I don't know if you watched "In the News" growing up, but, I mean, for me that was my first introduction to news was on Saturday mornings in amongst the cartoons. He had such a distinctive voice.
And, you know, I think -- it was interesting in the newsroom today when we heard that he had died. So many people were just kind of stunned by it because I don't think -- I'm not even sure he knew the impact he had. So many of us grew up and really got interested in news by watching those "In the News" reports on CBS on Saturday morning.
HILL: And you may not even, you know, be doing what you're doing today if it wasn't for him. So a pretty powerful guy.
COOPER: Yes, he was a remarkable, remarkable guy.
HILL: And well-loved.
COOPER: Sorry for his passing.
Erica, thanks. HILL: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: A little more of 360 in a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," we're told some fish contain mercury and other dangerous toxins, but which fish? The risks and the benefits of eating certain types of fish, plus all the day's headlines. That's on "AMERICAN MORNING" starting at 6:00 a.m. Eastern time with the O'Brien twins.
"LARRY KING" is coming up next. They're not actually twins, but "LARRY KING" is coming up next. His guest is Dr. Keith Ablow, talking about his interview with John Mark Karr. Thanks for watching 360. We'll see you tomorrow night. Good night.
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