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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Punch and Counterpunch on Campaign Trail; Bill Clinton's New Role in Senator Clinton's Campaign; Lawmakers Ask Justice Department to Investigate Roger Clemens; Deadly Shark Attack
Aired February 27, 2008 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Where does Hillary Clinton go from here? We'll show you the latest from the campaign trail. Barack Obama facing a taste of the hits he'll be taking if he's the nominee; some rough stuff today. How is he handling it? We'll examine that.
Also John McCain landing a clean punch on Senator Obama then taking a counterpunch to the chin. We'll tell you about that.
We'll also look at Rush Limbaugh and others targeting him today after he smacked down another right wing talk show host for talking trash about Obama. Will McCain win votes in the middle by taking on the extremes?
And later, Roger Clemens; he told lawmakers he never used steroids or human growth hormone, HGH. Now those same Democratic and Republican lawmakers are saying we don't believe you. They're asking the Justice Department to investigate.
We begin tonight with Hillary Clinton's rocky road to the Democratic nomination, and some explosive opening shots today in the general election campaign between Barack Obama and John McCain.
Of course, that is jumping the gun, but it never stopped anyone in politics before, certainly not pollsters. A new "L.A. Times" poll shows John McCain in a statistical tie with Senator Obama in a hypothetical November match up. Senator Clinton trails McCain by 6 points in the same poll. For now though, Senators Obama and Clinton have to deal with each other first.
Today saw a new endorsement for Barack Obama which represented a big setback for Hillary Clinton. Details on all that from CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a political and personal blow to Hillary Clinton, Congressman John Lewis, civil rights legend, close friend and early Clinton supporter is jumping ship.
REP. JOHN LEWIS, (D-GA): This man, this senator, Barack Obama, somehow in some way has been able to emerge, to carry the hopes and dreams and aspirations of millions of people.
CROWLEY: Noting his Georgia district voted for Obama, Lewis said something's happening in America. Something some of us did not see coming.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Continuing our focus on jobs which is the key here.
CROWLEY: The news comes as Clinton tries to steady her campaign in the most critical days of her presidential bid. She relentlessly talks problems, policies and plans to solve them, shuttling from Texas, Ohio and back again. Her game plan? Focus voters on the stakes.
H. CLINTON: What I feel is happening is that people are turning toward the big questions that they should have to answer in this campaign. You know, what can be the best commander in chief day one in the White House, answering the phone at 3:00 a.m., who would be the best steward of the economy.
CROWLEY: Behind the scenes, the campaign is trying to stop the slow bleed. Top Clinton supporters are urging high profile politicians eying Obama to hold off. During three weeks this month, he spent nearly $4 million in ads, almost twice as much as she has. A fundraising plea was put out under Bill Clinton's name. "Let's show the Obama campaign," it read, "that they can't win this race just by throwing more money at it."
It does not help her cause that John McCain is tuning up for a general campaign in a way that suggests he expects Obama will be his opponent. Flashing his foreign policy credentials, McCain is mocking Obama for saying, after U.S. Forces are withdrawn he would send them back if Al Qaeda resurges and Iraq is in chaos.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have some news. Al Qaeda is in Iraq. Al Qaeda. It's called Al Qaeda in Iraq. And, my friends, if we left, they wouldn't be establishing a base. They'd be taking a country. And I'm not going to allow that to happen, my friends. I will not surrender.
CROWLEY: Without offering a direct answer, Obama, nonetheless, is happy to have this discussion.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have some news for John McCain. And that is that there was no such thing as Al Qaeda in Iraq until George Bush and John McCain decided to invade Iraq.
CROWLEY: It is a fall preview of a story not yet written. Camp Clinton argues and polls support the idea that she could well win both Ohio and Texas this Tuesday; two big states, one pivotal race and so little time.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: So little time indeed. Candy, you mention in the piece that the Lewis endorsement is a personal, psychological and political blow to Hillary Clinton. Easy to see how it's personal. Why potentially psychological and politically damaging?
CROWLEY: Well, politically, it could start the flow. John Lewis himself said if other people see me, they think, "Okay, I can climb aboard this too." Psychologically, here's the Clinton campaign, it's struggling to find some terra firma politically, and it loses, really, what has been a major endorsement.
This is a huge guy. Not just in the African-American community, but in the civil rights community at large. So it is a big loss, and it comes at a time when the Clinton campaign didn't need another punch.
COOPER: What John Lewis went through and persevered in the civil rights movement is truly heroic in the history of this country.
The state of mind on the Clinton camp, how are they reacting to this idea that is gaining steam, no doubt about it, that they're really one loss away from leaving the race?
CROWLEY: Well, they're reacting to it by saying, "Listen, take a look at these polls. If we win Ohio, if we win Texas, we'll be back in it."
But I have to tell you, there was a really interesting interview yesterday that Hillary Clinton did with the Christian Broadcasting Network. And she talked a little bit about Obama. And it was a little bit to what John Lewis got to. Some sort of -- she just seemed mystified as to what was going on here. She called Obama a phenomenon, she said this is about him and who he is and seemed not to be able to kind of put this in place.
I think John Lewis is exactly right. I think neither the Clinton campaign, nor John Lewis, nor frankly about 95 percent of journalists understood the power that a campaign like Obama's would have, that kind of subterranean urge by Americans for something different. He's brought that to the surface.
And I think it really is a cause of wonderment at this point to the Clinton campaign, and frankly a lot of other people.
COOPER: I'm shocked that you include journalists in on that (inaudible)
CROWLEY: Some journalists, I said.
COOPER: Candy thanks very much.
COOPER: Now Conservative Talk Radio's war on John McCain and vice versa. Senator McCain amped it up yesterday, we talked about it in the program, slapping down a Cincinnati talk show host who took harsh shots at Barack Obama at a McCain event.
Well, today Rush Limbaugh and others fired back. The question tonight, is it going to hurt McCain with conservative voters in November more than it helps him with moderates?
More on that from CNN's John King.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE) MCCAIN: The reason why I have to repudiate that was because it was a campaign event.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is war now. And words are Bill Cunningham's weapon of choice.
BILL CUNNINGHAM, CONSERVATIVE TALK RADIO HOST: I'm saying now to John McCain, I'm done with you. I may not vote for Hillary, but I'm sure as hell not going to vote for Juan Pablo McCain who wants to give amnesty to millions of illegals.
KING: The conservative radio host says it will be this way from now until November.
CUNNINGHAM: John McCain is finding it impossible to connect with conservatives because of what he did to me yesterday.
KING: Unless senator McCain apologizes for condemning Cunningham and a whole lot more.
CUNNINGHAM: He would have to apologize for McCain-Feingold, apologize for McCain-Kennedy, apologize for McCain-Lieberman, apologize for shutting down Gitmo, apologize for opposing the Bush tax cuts, say he's sorry, he made a mistake, and then I might consider it.
KING: Campaigning in Texas, the senator was in no mood to apologize, saying Cunningham is free to say whatever he wants on the radio, but not at an official McCain event.
MCCAIN: Americans want a respectful campaign and they'll get it from me.
KING: War with conservative talk radio is anything but helpful and Rush Limbaugh quickly took Cunningham's side, mocking McCain's apology.
RUSH LIMBAUGH: It's uncalled for. It's uncalled for in American politics.
KING: The best McCain can do is try to turn the dust up to his advantage.
MCCAIN: I will always do what I believe is right, no matter what the political consequences are.
KING: At issue is Cunningham's warm up act at McCain's Tuesday Cincinnati rally.
CUNNINGHAM: Now we have a hack, Chicago-style Daley politician. Maybe start covering Barack Hussein Obama.
KING: Cunningham is a local legend invited by local Republicans who know he's a magnet for controversy.
MAGGIE NAFZINGER, EXEC. DIR., HAMILTON CO. REPUBLICAN PARTY: You're playing with a little bit of fire, but at the same time, I don't think anyone expected the comments.
KING: The media frustration for people like Maggie Nafzinger, headlines about the controversy not about McCain's political message.
The longer term worry is the impact among conservatives who already doubt McCain. Cincinnati is critical to Republican chances in close Ohio campaigns. While on Tuesday, Republicans called Cunningham a critical player, the clear goal Wednesday was to play down the potential damage.
NAFZINGER: I don't think that hurt Senator McCain at all. He is a conservative. He's clearly by far the most conservative in the race. So I don't think Bill Cunningham's comments will hurt Senator McCain at all.
KING: Bill Cunningham thinks his voice does matter.
CUNNINGHAM: McCain should lose this election and then let the Democrat win.
KING: He has 250 days to prove it.
John King, CNN, Cincinnati.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: We shall see. More on the recall politics from our panel; CNN's senior political analyst David Gergen, former Mitt Romney senior staffer, Bay Buchanan and Roland Martin who's both a CNN contributor and a radio talk show host.
Bay, are you surprised the back lash against McCain has been so severe and continues now? It seems like kind of a new front in it.
BAY BUCHANAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: No, I'm not the least bit surprised. I was astounded the press didn't pick it up yesterday. As soon as John McCain stepped out there and took a position he did not have to do, he did not have to do. He did not have to go after Cunningham at all.
He could have said, "This is a man, he's a good man. I appreciate his support, he says things I don't always agree with, but that's part of the American way," anything like that.
But instead what he did he went out of his way and went after Cunningham. It was a message to conservatives, "I want you with me, but don't expect me to be with you." It didn't surprise me at all.
COOPER: Bay, do you think that he -- he seemed to be trying to turn that into a positive today by saying, look, I say what I think and I do things which I -- may not be politically in my best interest, which I think are the right things to do. Isn't that a principle he can run on?
BUCHANAN: Well, it is. It's something that he says he's been doing for a number of years. But then, doesn't that, Anderson, give conservatives an opening to say, listen, we've got to do what we think is right? And we've got to be -- you've taught us how to be mavericks and it's time for us to be mavericks now.
The key here is, it's something that McCain didn't have to do. He did not have to offend conservatives. He did not have to go and take on Cunningham, a man that went out on a limb to endorse him, to help him in that state, whose own listeners, I'm sure, would have taken him on for doing it, but he went to try to help McCain, and what did McCain do? He cuts him loose as soon as there's any kind of problem. He tells us he's never going to be with us.
COOPER: David, how do you see this playing out long-term? Is this something McCain is going to face, you know, obviously six months from now?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it's -- you know, just a week ago the conservative talk show hosts were rallying to McCain over "The New York Times" story, and now this. This is going to be a very, very uneasy tense marriage, isn't it, between John McCain and the radio talk show hosts.
COOPER: It's like a Britney Spears marriage, it lasts like a day.
GERGEN: I have to tell you, I think Bay Buchanan is right. That if the -- you know, he's got a bit of a flashy temper. We all know that can flash, and he takes strong stands. So he came down hard. We've seen Republican presidents in the past. Ronald Reagan didn't always agree with the talk show hosts, and nor did George H.W. Bush, nor did George W. Bush, but they all managed to stay out of fights with them, which I think is a wise way to go.
There's a real tension -- or a contradiction between him and his campaign John McCain, just as with the Obama campaign and his campaign; the contradiction now is between John McCain trying to bring the conservatives with him, and at the same time rallying the independents with his maverick status.
COOPER: Roland, shouldn't they kind of know what they were getting into? This guy, Cunningham is well known, I guess in the area.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR AND RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: You know, Anderson let me cut to the chase. Cunningham was like a spoiled brat. If my dad or mom saw me acting that way, they probably would spank my behind for embarrassing them in public.
At a radio talk show if someone invites you, you know how to act. It's not your radio show. And you know what? It's not about you. It's about the candidate. It's about him.
McCain had to do that because of how he behaved. He behaved like a spoiled child. All these conservative talk show hosts, what they want to do is be rabid and go on and on and on. They need to understand is my saying, "I'm not going to vote for him, let the Democrats have it. The conservatives are sitting one vote away from the Supreme Court majority.
COOPER: Let me just say there are a lot of rabid liberal radio show hosts as well.
MARTIN: Well, they are. They know how to behave in public. The conservatives are sitting one vote away from a majority in the Supreme Court. So you mean to tell me that they're going to act like children and sacrifice that because he wants to put them in their place? He should have been put in his place.
COOPER: We're going to have more on this after the break and more on what's going on on the Democratic side. We'll have more from our panel in just a moment.
You can get in on the conversation as well. I'm blogging as always during the broadcast, so is Erica Hill. Go to cnn.com/360. Although I think she's logging in right now.
Up ahead, putting a new campaign face on Bill Clinton; a kinder, gentler one. Where has he been? Is it working? We'll look at that.
And later, the company Web site boasts that no one gets you closer to sharks in the wild. Close enough, it turns out, at least to get killed, in one case. A diver fatally bitten and allegations are flying about a tour operator that some say was a tragedy waiting to happen. Or is the biggest danger in all this may be to the sharks?
We'll explain that and more ahead on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: I have some news. Al Qaeda is in Iraq. Al Qaeda -- it's called Al Qaeda in Iraq.
OBAMA: I have some news for John McCain. And that is that there was no such thing as Al Qaeda in Iraq until George Bush and John McCain decided to invade Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That was the punch and counterpunch on Al Qaeda in Iraq that we saw today on the campaign trail between McCain and Obama. No doubt a preview of what's going to be happening if they are the nominees from here on in.
We're back with our panel; David Gergen, Bay Buchanan, and Roland Martin.
Bay, it was interesting to hear Obama -- I'm not sure if this is the first time he's done it, but basically say George Bush and John McCain got us into the war in Iraq. Clearly, you know, they're kind of dancing around each other, beginnings of what this argument is going to look like.
If you're advising John McCain, how do you use Iraq against Obama?
BUCHANAN: What he has to do, and you've already seen signs of this is to make certain you paint him as someone that wants to surrender in Iraq, that he wants to put up that white flag. And then ask America, are we ready to surrender? Look at all the good things going on. We're making enormous success over there and here's a guy who wants to be president and pull us out precipitously.
And I don't America is ready to surrender and I think they feel very good about things and the direction of Iraq right now. So I think he could have a winning issue there.
COOPER: David, how do you see this issue playing out? Toe to toe, Obama against McCain on national security especially in Iraq, it's probably the one issue which might highlight the starkest contrast between the two of them.
GERGEN: Absolutely, but I do think Bay is right on the general area. And that is John McCain is going to go after Barack Obama as the George McGovern of 1972. That's what Richard Nixon did with McGovern. You're going to surrender in Vietnam, this unpopular war, but you're going to surrender. You'll pull us back out and as you know, Nixon rolled up a landslide.
A big difference here. Barack Obama is very good at the thrust and parry of politics. He turned that line right back on John McCain today and got a roar out of that crowd. This is going to be a rock 'em sock 'em campaign with people looking forward to the backing and forthing.
We've had a campaign mostly about personalities so far because it's intra-party and we've just been looking at minor differences among the candidates. But between the Democrats and Republicans, there are fundamentally different world views about where we go from here.
COOPER: It is going to be fascinating.
Roland, Congressman John Lewis made it official today, we talked about this before, switching his support from Clinton to Obama. What kind of impact does that have, not only on the morale in the Clinton camp but on the Obama campaign and those who might come to support it?
MARTIN: It's very difficult for the Clintons because they were trying to keep Lewis from making this announcement. He's extremely close to former President Bill Clinton, very close to Senator Hillary Clinton.
But here's the key why John Lewis did this. His district went 3 to 1 for Obama. Also last week a 30-year-old pastor said he's going to challenge John Lewis in his congressional race. I can tell you, I've talked to several members of congress who are African-American and they're concerned that those who supported Clinton that they're going to have challengers when it comes to the next election. The last thing they want to do is to go against their constituents.
So from Obama's standpoint, what this does is force other people to say, wait a minute, if this guy is picking up a John Lewis, who was an ardent supporter of Clinton, we may want to reconsider this.
Clinton has to win both states on March 4th. She must win Texas and Ohio. If she only wins Ohio and loses Texas or wins Texas and loses Ohio, you're going to see more superdelegates move and they're going to follow John Lewis's lead.
COOPER: David, what about that, if she wins one state and doesn't win the other, does she stay in it?
GERGEN: There will be huge pressure on her to get out. She's going to have a very hard time raising money if she loses a state next week, one of the big two states. So I think fundamentally she's got to win both.
Right now, it looks like it's going to be very, very hard for her to win Texas, especially to win on the delegate side. She's still holding that lead in Ohio, but it continues to chip away, day by day.
COOPER: Do you agree with that, Bay, if she loses one state she's out?
BUCHANAN: I think she is, because what my colleague just said is you'll start to see the superdelegates to start moving away, because they don't want a contested convention. They know that that's not good politics. So I think you'll see more and more superdelegates start to split, leaving a clear indication to Hillary that she cannot do it now and it's time to get out.
COOPER: It just gets more and more interesting. Bay Buchanan, David Gergen, Roland Martin, thank you all; interesting perspectives.
Check out the "360" blog for David Gergen's post on last night's Democratic debate. It's a great conversation. You can join at cnn.com/360.
We'll have more politics ahead.
Does Bill Clinton have a new role in his wife's campaign, and is it enough to make a difference before the primaries less than a week away? That's coming up.
But first, Erica Hill joins us with the "360" bulletin -- Erica?
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hello there. Nice hair cut, by the way.
COOPER: Thank you.
HILL: We start off actually with a very serious story. Family and friends and fans tonight remembering William F. Buckley, one of the founders of the modern conservative movement. He died today at his home in Connecticut. He was of course best known as the founder and editor of the "National Review." He also authored more than 50 books; many of them spy novels. William F. Buckley was 82.
Police in Los Angeles on the hunt tonight for a gunman who fired into a crowd at a bus stop; seven people wounded, two critically. Police believe the gunman was targeting one of the injured.
And a pilot, fired for a top gun-like stunt at the Boeing factory in Everett, Washington. The senior Cathay Pacific pilot did a low fly-by with the newly delivered 777 but his bosses, Anderson, not impressed.
COOPER: That should be a "What Was He Thinking?" That's just moronic.
HILL: Moronic, excellent word choice.
COOPER: You complimented me on my hair cut and I sensed some sarcasm.
HILL: No, no.
COOPER: You can deny it all you will. I know you just recently had your hair done, but I think we have a picture of you right about a week ago.
HILL: No wonder they were telling me to tell you again.
COOPER: So mock away, Erica Hill. Mock away.
HILL: I'm comfortable with it. I brought the picture in once years ago, so it's fine.
COOPER: Straight right there, "What Were They Thinking," is next. A campus emergency drill, this is unbelievable, causes chaos and anger. It went so bad that counseling is being offered to students and faculty because of this drill. We'll tell you what went down.
And later, the evolving role of Bill Clinton on the campaign trail. He's now less visible to say the least and a lot quieter. Is it helping Hillary? We'll look at that when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Time for our segment now, "What Were They Thinking?" Some scary moments, Erica, for students at Elizabeth City State University in North Carolina. Last Friday, an armed man burst into a classroom threatening to kill students and the professor. It turns out it was all part of an emergency drill, a drill that a lot of students and faculty say they didn't know anything about.
The professor in the classroom said it felt so real he was prepared to die. School officials claimed that they sent e-mails and text messages warning of the upcoming test. But the students say those messages were not clear. Keep in mind, this drill came just days after a gunman killed five people and himself in Northern Illinois University. HILL: That's really the kicker too, I think.
COOPER: Right.
HILL: It underscores that event. It tells you, wow, we need to do a drill, but maybe you should wait a little bit longer.
COOPER: Yes, and you shouldn't in a classroom; suddenly a guy bursts in with a gun. It just doesn't seem like a good idea.
Grief counselors were at the Elizabeth State University yesterday apparently for the students traumatized by the drill. What were they thinking?
Still ahead tonight, a lot to cover. Who's telling the truth? Congress is not convinced it's Roger Clemens. The Justice Department is now being asked to investigate whether the star pitcher lied under oath that happened today.
And a kinder, gentler bill Clinton hitting the trail. No more attacks, no more finger waving. We've got the raw politics behind the new approach.
First, Erica's here again with the " Beat 360."
HILL: Indeed, I am. Arnold Schwarzenegger joking with President Bush and First Lady Laura Bush after a state dinner for the nation's governors. The caption winner from Kay on our staff. "Yes, Mr. President, Anderson Cooper's bicep is in fact that big." You're in the studio. It's rough. See? I can't even speak. Those guns, A.C.
COOPER: Yes, well. If you think you can do better, go to cnn.com/360. Send us your submission. We'll announce the winner at the end of the program.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a one-man, one-vote country and I'm amazed nobody like you ever -- you should be offended by this. You think that one person's vote should count five times as much as another? We had nothing to do with that lawsuit. I read about it in the newspaper.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Bill Clinton, that was him angry about allegations of campaign legal dirty tricks back in Nevada in January. He was certainly a lot more front and center back then. Remember that, letting lose on reporters, lecturing on presidential politics, calling Barack Obama's opposition to the Iraq war a fairy tale.
These days, there is a much different former President Clinton on the campaign trail. Much more low key and reined in by his wife's campaign staff. Did somebody tell Bill Clinton to chill? Joe Johns has that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When Bill Clinton speaks these days on the campaign trail, it's all about what you don't hear.
B. CLINTON: So, if you want to fix it, Hillary is your only choice for president.
JOHNS: No attacks, nothing risky.
B. CLINTON: God bless you, we need your help.
JOHNS: Call it Bill Clinton, 2.0; a kinder, gentler, former president.
JULIAN EPSTEIN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The president realizes that he is such a media attraction, that no matter what he says, they will make controversy out of that, and that can become a distraction.
JOHNS: What happened? At the beginning of the campaign, Clinton insiders say the former president decided to go directly after Barack Obama on the Iraq war.
B. CLINTON: You said in 2004 there was no difference between you and George Bush on the war and you took that speech you're now running on off your Web site in 2004 and there's no difference in your voting record and Hillary's ever since. Give me a break. This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen.
JOHNS: But by the time they got to South Carolina, that fairy tale sound bite came back to haunt him.
The fairy tale was Obama's claim to have consistently opposed the war. But people heard it as a comment on Obama himself and it touched a raw nerve, especially among African-Americans.
More South Carolina Democrats who said Bill Clinton was a factor in their vote voted for Barack Obama and Bill Clinton took himself off the firing line.
B. CLINTON: Whenever I defend her, I, a - risk being misquoted and, b - risk being the story. This is her campaign, her president and her decisions. So even if I win an argument with another candidate, it's not the right thing to do.
JOHNS: Since then, he's been sticking more closely to the script. This is from today.
B. CLINTON: If you think there was a real difference in the '90s and this decade and you'd like somebody who will do even better in the future, you should vote for her. She's your change-maker.
JOHNS: Notice the difference? Is it working? Hard to tell. But with the campaign now struggling, some wish Bill Clinton was back drawing contrasts. EPSTEIN: I think the president could be very, very effective in drawing the distinctions between her and Barack Obama.
She needs to do that. President Clinton, I think, needs to do that and will do that if she gets past the March 4th primary.
JOHNS: It's clearly time to pull out all the stops. But for now, it seems Mr. Clinton isn't one of them.
Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.
COOPER: Straight ahead, the rocket under fire. Roger Clemens, steroid denier. Problem is the Democratic and Republican heads of congressional committee he appeared before don't seem to believe him. They're pushing the Justice Department to investigate. We've got all the angles.
Later, is it a case of putting tourists in the middle of a shark feeding frenzy? Sounds like it. A diver died, but not everyone agrees on who's to blame. We'll talk to experts on both sides of the tragedy when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: That is Roger Clemens on the right, raising his hand, swearing to tell the truth before members of congress. Now, the pitcher, one of the greatest of all time, testified he never, never took performance-enhancing drugs like steroids or HGH, human growth hormone. That's what he said.
Now lawmakers suspect it was a pack of lies. Today house members ask the Justice Department to determine if Clemens committed perjury. As for the 45-year-old pitcher, he says he wants to get on with baseball, but this is not going away.
CNN's David Mattingly has the latest developments.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Roger Clemens looked Congress straight in the eye and proclaimed his innocence.
ROGER CLEMENS, BASEBALL PLAYER: Let me be clear. I've never taken steroids or HGH.
MATTINGLY: But after hours of Capitol Hill testimony and contrary statements from Clemens own trainer, Brian McNamee, Committee Chairman Henry Waxman could only reach one conclusion.
REP. HENRY WAXMAN, (D), OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: It's impossible to believe that this is a simple misunderstanding. Someone isn't telling the truth.
MATTINGLY: So congress is calling the cops. In his letter to the U.S. Attorney general, Waxman wants Clemens investigated to see if he committed perjury and made knowingly false statements. If the Justice Department decides to get involved, former federal prosecutor Preston Burton says the questioning of Roger Clemens' credibility has only just begun.
PRESTON BURTON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's an extremely serious matter. If the Justice Department pursues this matter, and I believe they're going to have to, he is in for additional scrutiny, additional attacks on his credibility and potential criminal charges that could subject him to a term of imprisonment.
MATTINGLY: But why investigate Clemens for perjury and not trainer, McNamee? That decision apparently has a lot to do with testimony of fellow pitcher and Clemens friend, Andy Pettitte. Pettitte and another former Clemens teammate, Chuck Knoblauch said McNamee was telling the truth when he injected them with HGH.
In a letter to fellow Democrats, Chairman Waxman said "There is little reason to believe that Mr. McNamee would provide truthful testimony about Mr. Pettitte and Mr. Knoblauch, but false testimony about Roger Clemens."
RUSTY HARDIN, ROGER CLEMENS' ATTORNEY: The one thing we know is we will all commit -- whether it is the civil court alone or civil and criminal court together, be facing what we conclude -- what we believe is the only reliable lie detector test, and that is a jury.
MATTINGLY: Clemens' attorney, Rusty Hardin, says they knew this would happen and says they look forward to an investigation that is out of public view. He says, Clemens will continue to fight what he calls these false allegations with every ounce of strength he has.
David Mattingly, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, the charges are serious, no doubt about it. But where's the proof he lied and what's the penalty if he did?
Joining us is anchor of "In Session" on Truth TV, Lisa Bloom. What does this mean? He goes to congress, they say he lied, what happens?
LISA BLOOM, TRUTH TV ANCHOR: Now there has to be an investigation which the Justice Department may be opening it up. It could be a "he said, he said, he said" case. The question is, is there hard evidence? Is there DNA evidence? Do the syringes and vials that had been turned over by McNamee, do they have some kind of fingerprints on them, some DNA evidence on them, linking them to Clemens. And if so, does he have a defense for that?
COOPER: So the stuff that McNamee said he saved, the syringes, that will be key to the case?
BLOOM: I think it will be. But the argument and response is that he had the stuff all this time, there was time for tampering and maybe they were used for a legitimate purpose like B-12 injections.
COOPER: Otherwise it just boils down to "he said, he said."
BLOOM: He said, he said, he said. Right, because it's also Pettitte who said that Clemens told him. It's going to go back and forth in a lot different ways.
Perjury investigations are rare. Perjury convictions are even rarer, but they do happen. Look at Scooter Libby, look at Martha Stewart. She was convicted of lying to investigators in a very similar charge. It does happen, especially against high-profile figures lying to authorities. Authorities trying to make an example out of them, that could be what's going on here.
COOPER: What do you think of likelihood that charges will be brought?
BLOOM: I think the likelihood is high. There seems to be a real sense that something has to be done. I think a lot of people do feel that Roger Clemens was lying. Don't ask me why Congress is investigating this in a time of war and with the economy. Why the Justice Department needs to be held up, and taking time with this, but a lot of people feel strongly about it.
COOPER: And in terms of the timing how long would an investigation take?
BLOOM: Well, it could take years. It really could. They have to go through all of these investigations. The other big question I have though is, why did Roger Clemens, who is ably represented by counsel, volunteer to give sworn testimony under oath, when he knew everybody was coming after him?
If they couldn't get him for the steroids, they'd get him for the lying, they'd get him for the perjury. Surely he knew that, surely his counsel advised him on that but he decided I'm going to go raise my right hand and swear to tell the truth any way.
COOPER: Could it mean he's innocent?
BLOOM: It could mean he's innocent. But as you point out, it's a he said, he said, he said, she said case. If you've got three people lined up against you it may be hard for him to establish his innocence.
COOPER: All right, Lisa Bloom, "In Session" Truth TV. Thanks Lisa, appreciate it.
BLOOM: Thank you.
COOPER: Up next - a deadly adventure. A man dies on a tour that lets people swim up close with hungry sharks. A lot of people say this was a tragedy waiting to happen. Others say it was a freak accident. You can decide we have different opinions coming up.
Also ahead, a former police officer convicted of killing his pregnant girlfriend learns his fate. You're watching 360. Stay tuned. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: A remarkable sight off Palm Beach, Florida, sharks, thousands of them swarming very close to the shore. The sharks do this every year; part of a mating/feeding frenzy of course. Swimmers are being encouraged obviously to avoid going in the water. Makes sense there. But there's more to the story, Erica joins us again with details -- Erica.
HILL: We touched on this briefly last night, Anderson. But some more details tonight. We're learning that about 50 miles away from Palm Beach there are also sharks gathering but for a different sort of feeding frenzy.
This is one that's actually organized by divers who want to get in the water with these predators. In fact they even pay for that privilege. But one man recently paid with his life.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: A close encounter with a killer. These divers, using a cage, get within inches of great white sharks. But for some shark enthusiasts, the only way to experience the sensation is a cageless dive.
ROB STEWART, MARINE BIOLOGIST: Diving with sharks under water is an amazing experience. You get to see firsthand they're not predators of people, that they're in fact beautiful, magnificent animals; that they're essential for all life on earth.
HILL: To attract the predators, the sea is baited with fish parts, a process called chumming. It can be the thrill of a lifetime, but last Sunday that thrill turned deadly.
Markus Groh, an Austrian attorney was bitten by a shark during a cageless dive off the Bahamas. He bled to death. Groh was on an expedition with a Florida-based company, Jim Abernethy's Scuba Adventures. Its Web site boasts, "Jim Abernethy can assure you the very best up close encounters. We are in our fifth season and the shark action has never been better."
It says divers will see bull sharks, tiger sharks and hammerheads. It's not clear what type of shark attacked the victim, but Neil Watson, president of the Bahamas Diving Association says last year he urged Abernethy and others to stop cageless dives involving dangerous species of sharks, including bull and hammerhead.
Watson, who actually runs cageless dives himself but according to him, with less dangerous kinds of sharks, told CNN, "I've always said, it wasn't a matter of time whether something like this would happen, it was when." Reached by phone, Abernethy told us he has no comment at this time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: So, Anderson, just to be clear, the practice was outlawed in Florida in 2001, but the businesses run out of there, the boats are taken to Bahamian waters. So that's why this actually happened in the Bahamas, where it is still technically legal.
COOPER: It's really fascinating. The question of course, could the death have been avoided? And should shark dives where there are no cages be banned?
Rob Stewart is a shark photographer and documentary filmmaker, you just heard from him in Erica's report, and George Burgess is the director of shark research at the University of Florida. Both joined me earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Rob, you've been out with Mr. Abernathy before, in a dive, I think back in December was the last time. How did they feed the sharks on the dive you were on?
STEWART: They bring bait crates down, milk crates full of fish and fish parts, and basically those crates in the bottom, there's usually someone who's in charge of the bait crate and they sort of set all the tourists up in I guess -- so that the tourists are all facing the man in charge of the bait crate and then they feed the sharks that way.
COOPER: Because on their Web site, Rob, they say that, "We're going to be chumming the waters with fish and fish parts." Were they chumming when you were there?
STEWART: Yes they do. What they did when I was there was they were putting bait over the side of the boat in crates. So they weren't actually pouring fish blood or horse blood or anything like that, like with white sharks. But they had big crates sitting over the side of the boat, trying to attract the sharks.
COOPER: George, what do you think might have gone wrong here? Obviously we don't know the details but what raises your concern?
GEORGE BURGESS, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, SHARK EXPERT: Well, my concern would be the types of sharks involved. Obviously, in somewhat deeper water, along the edge of the gulf you're going to be attracting some different sharks. Some of those sharks, such as the tiger shark, which are advertised as one of the focus of the dives, are well known as aggressive sharks towards human beings.
COOPER: And chumming waters, putting fish and fish parts in the water, is that inherently dangerous, George?
BURGESS: Chumming is a good way, of course, to attract sharks. Sharks have great sense of smell and taste. So it's a very effective means of attracting these animals to an area.
COOPER: Rob, what do you think might have gone wrong here?
STEWART: I think, you know, as bad as it is, I think this was a terrible accident. This is the first time in recorded history that anyone's died from a shark diving operation.
I think what happened was, you know, clearly the shark was going to try to get the bait that actually attracts it to the area. There was some commotion under water, the sand was stirred up and the shark bit at the bait crate, trying to get the fish and ended up with the guy's calf instead.
COOPER: George, why are these dives outlawed in some places in the United States, like in Florida?
BURGESS: One of the concerns, of course, is the habituation of the sharks. The sharks get used to being fed by humans. They lose their natural tendency to be careful around humans, to be a little scared.
COOPER: Rob, why not have a cage on a dive like this?
STEWART: The cages aren't really that necessary. Dive operations like this, their aim is to get people as close as they possibly can to these animals.
COOPER: So Rob, you actually think it has a positive impact? George was talking about the dangers of changing their behavior and feeding patterns. You say it educates people about the reality of sharks and, therefore, is good for sharks?
STEWART: Absolutely, I think it's one of the best things for shark populations around the world. When an elephant falls down in Africa, the world goes crazy. A hundred million sharks die every year and nobody notices and nobody cares.
COOPER: George, what about that argument? Is a dive like this something which is important to protect sharks long-term?
BURGESS: The shark feeding attractions are sort of a double- edged sword. Clearly many, many people are getting out to see sharks in the natural world which, obviously, is good for these people to learn more about sharks and what they're really all about.
Unfortunately, a habituated shark swimming circles around a chumball is doing anything but acting natural.
COOPER: Rob Stewart we appreciate your perspective and George Burgess as well. Thank you very much.
Remarkable pictures.
Up next, a jury decided whether a former police officer convicted of killing his pregnant lover will live or die.
And how Michael Jackson's may have saved his Neverland Ranch from foreclosure. When 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
OZZY OSBOURNE: Hi, I'm Ozzy Osbourne. Live from CNN's Warner Center in New York, this is Anderson Cooper 360. And now, Anderson.
COOPER: Michael Douglas is shaking in his boots that NBC is going to let him go and Ozzy is going to get hired for them. You can't have Ozzy Osbourne, we've got him. That's from the audition to the voice of 360.
We'll have another new audition tomorrow night. You can see Ozzy, Fran Drescher and peek at the latest voice at our Web site cnn.com/360.
It's almost time for the shot of the day, back by popular demand. It's the dancing inmates of the Philippines and they have some new moves.
First Erica Hill joins us again with the "360 News And Business Bulletin -- Erica.
HILL: Former police officer Bobby Cutts Junior sentenced today to life in prison for killing his girlfriend and their unborn daughter. An Ohio judge ordered Cutts to serve two consecutive terms. That means the 30-year-old will not be eligible for parole for 57 years.
New warnings from Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke today about the nation's economic prospects. Bernanke told Capitol Hill lawmakers worry about rising inflation could complicate attempts to stimulate the economy, uplifting news. Bernanke also warned a further decline in both the housing and labor markets.
Some last-minute help for Michael Jackson. The king of pop was phasing foreclosure of his Neverland Ranch. But a Jackson insider tells CNN he's got a new loan. The estate was actually scheduled for public auction on March 19th because he owes $24.5 million on the property.
COOPER: Imagine -- I sort of like to imagine sort of like, a crying clown walking around all by himself at Neverland.
HILL: I think that's probably what it's down to at this point and a gate.
COOPER: You think there's one clown left? That's it.
HILL: Yes, one clown and a gate from a merry go-round in the wind, creaking and rusty.
COOPER: And in the railroad, the only one on the choo-choo. That's how I see it.
Time now Erica to check our "Beat 360" picture. You know how it works. We put a picture on the 360 blog and ask viewers to come up with a better caption that's better than one of ours.
HILL: Tough to beat this one though because we have Governor Schwarzenegger, the president and the first lady at the state dinner for America's governors on Sunday. The staff picked from Kay; "Yes, Mr. President. Anderson Cooper's bicep is that big." Want to show the people at home, A.C.?
COOPER: Moving along. Moving along. Nothing to see here.
HILL: Sara wrote in and said, "What am I doing wrong, Laura? I'm the Terminator and I still can't get Maria to vote Republican." Pretty good. Not bad.
COOPER: Check out other ideas on the cnn.com/360blog and feel free to play along, why don't you?
The shot is next on 360. Fellons on the dance floor. The dancing prisoners of the Philippines return with a hip-hop anthem, the moves, the music.
HILL: Life is good.
COOPER: I don't know about that in a Philippine prison.
HILL: No, but for us to watch, I mean.
COOPER: From afar.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Time now for the shot, Erica. Guess who's back in business? That's right, our favorite dancing prisoners. The inmates of Philippine jail where every gesture is choreographed.
This is their new show stopper. The tune is by the hip-hop group Soldier Boy, I don't need to tell Erica that. The song is called "Crank That, Soldier Boy." with a nice sampling of MC Hammer, "You can't touch this," not a bad mix. Let's listen in. It's what Lou Dobbs likes to play in his office.
HILL: They should be wearing hammer pants.
COOPER: Yeah. As for the prisoners, I give them an 8.5.
HILL: I'm always impressed at how organized and well- choreographed they are. But then again, if you're a prisoner, you don't have a choice.
COOPER: They have a lot of time there.
HILL: Yes, they do. Of course, it's not he first time that they've performed. Shown us their stuff as you mentioned.
And so let's bring back "thriller." There it is. The original. This is what really brought the world in.
Oh, it's a thriller, all right. What's the other one? Don't they have a third one, or is it just the two?
COOPER: I think they have a whole bunch. I read that they tried to take the act on the road to perform at some local ceremony, but it was deemed a security risk. They should go on the road.
If you see some remarkable video, dancing prisoners or not, tell us about it cnn.com/360. Go there to get just about everything else.
Up next, more on the rough-and-tumble race between Hillary Clinton And Barack Obama, it's what's on the radar when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well nothing on the blog lately gets the kind of reaction than the race for president does. On the radar tonight, response to a David Gergen blog entry on Barack Obama's performance as a debater. How shaky he was just a couple of months ago and how improved it's been since then.
Hey wait a minute says Kathy in Dudley, Massachusetts. "The so- called eloquent Senator Obama mispronounced the name of the state of Massachusetts not once, but four times in two debates."
Lorie Ann in Buellton, California though says, "David I think you're right about Obama. However, until all the votes are in from Texas and Ohio, I'd say never say never."
Wilf, meantime in an undisclosed location says, "They used to say that Reagan was Mr. Teflon. Maybe Obama has acquired that ability."
As always unlike your spouse and co-workers we welcome your views. Go to cnn.com/360, link to the blog or send us a e-mail through our Web site.
For our international viewers, "CNN Today" is next. Here in America, Larry King is coming up.
Thanks for watching. I'll see you tomorrow night.
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