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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Interview With Barack Obama; Was Michael Jackson Murdered?; Supreme Grilling
Aired July 13, 2009 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, a 360 exclusive: one-on- one with President Obama in Africa, part of an emotional and historic journey for the president and for his family. We will show you some of the personal and unguarded moments we saw, such as this one, the president in a crowd of Secret Service dancing in front of his kids, until Sasha tries to put an end to it.
We also walked through the notorious Cape Coast Castle, with the president literally retracing the steps that millions of enslaved Africans took before being sent to the New World, sent to America.
We talked to the president about the impact of this place on his family and on America.
First, though, our sit-down interview, a wide-ranging discussion about the economy, don't ask, don't tell and Afghanistan, where an offensive is under way, commanders say they don't have enough Afghan support, and where three American service men have been killed since Friday.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: This is the first time you have sent U.S. troops into combat. You sent 21,000, 4,000 Marines right now involved in Helmand Province.
Does it make you think differently about the conflict, knowing that you were the ones who send troops in?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Absolutely. I think it's the most profound decision that I have made since I have been president. And I think about it every day.
You know, I have to sign letters for those who are fallen. We have seen a ramp-up of -- of fighting taking place in Afghanistan. During the G8 Summit, I was with Gordon Brown as he received news reports that you had additional British soldiers killed.
The entire coalition is making enormous sacrifices. And, obviously, our soldiers are fighting hard. And, so, I want to make sure that we have got the best possible strategy to succeed in a very limited aim. And that is to ensure that al Qaeda and its allies cannot launch attacks against the U.S. homeland and U.S. interests.
COOPER: On the economy, Joseph Biden the other day, Vice President Biden, said that -- that you misread the economy. You have said: "No, no, no. We had incomplete information."
And, nevertheless, you said that you would not have done anything differently. How -- that seems contradictory. How can you say that? If you had known that unemployment was going to 9.5 percent, would you -- wouldn't you have asked for more money in the stimulus?
OBAMA: It is not contradictory.
Keep in mind that we got an $800 billion stimulus package, by far the largest stimulus package ever approved by a United States Congress. And the stimulus package is working exactly as we had anticipated.
We gave out tax cuts early, so that consumers could start spending, or at least pay down debt, so that they could, at a later date, start spending. We put in $144 billion to states, so that they wouldn't have to cut teachers and police officers and, you know, other social services that are vital, particularly at a time of recession.
And we always anticipated that a big chunk of that money then would be spent, not only in the second half of the year, but also next year. This was designed to be a two-year plan, and not a six-month plan.
Now, it may turn out that the enormous loss of wealth, the depth of the recession that's occurred, requires us to reevaluate and see what else we can do in combination with the...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Possibly a second stimulus?
OBAMA: Well, it -- you know, there -- there are a whole range of things, Anderson, that we have done. The -- the banks have stabilized much more quickly than we had anticipated. They're not all the way to where we would like them to be, but we have seen significant process.
COOPER: You still see glimmers of hope?
OBAMA: Well, I -- if you look at both the financial sectors, the ability of businesses to get loans, the drop-off of volatility that has taken place, the general trajectory is in the right direction.
COOPER: One more question, before we go to Africa.
Don't ask, don't tell, it requires an act of Congress to overturn it. You have said you want it overturned.
OBAMA: Yes.
COOPER: But your -- your critics, and even some of your supporters, say, look, you -- you could stop enforcement right now of don't ask, don't tell. You could defer enforcement until you prod Congress to act.
Why not? Why not act? OBAMA: Look, I -- I have had conversations with Bob Gates, as well as Admiral Mullen, about the fact that I want to see this law changed.
I also want to make sure that, A, we are not simply ignoring a congressional law. If Congress passes a law that is constitutionally valid, then it's not appropriate for the executive branch simply to say, we will not enforce a law.
It is our duty to enforce laws. I do think that there's the possibility, though, that we change how the law is being enforced, and -- even as we are pursuing a shift in congressional policy.
But, look, the bottom line is, I want to see this changed. And we have already contacted congressional allies. I want to make sure that it is changed in a way that ultimately works well for our military and for the outstanding gay and lesbian soldiers that are both currently enlisted or would like to enlist. And...
COOPER: Do you personally have a timetable in your mind of when you want to see it changed?
OBAMA: I would like to see it done sooner, rather than later.
And we have begun a process to not only work it through Congress, but also to make sure that the Pentagon has thought through all the ramifications of how this would be most effective.
COOPER: Before we walk, I just want to ask you one other question. You talked about your father on this trip. How much of your thoughts about Africa are affected by his experiences, the problems he faced in Kenya with corruption, with tribalism?
OBAMA: I think, yes, his story, but, more broadly, the story of my family in Kenya, which still continues, informs how I think about this.
I -- I...
COOPER: How so?
OBAMA: Well -- well, I'm reminded of the fact that, on the one hand, you have people of extraordinary talent and energy and drive, some of -- who have succeeded, but others who have been blocked, because they find themselves in the circumstances that Africans all across the continent find themselves, can't get adequate school fees to get the education they need, try to get a job, and it turns out that you have got to pay a bribe to get that job, you know, living in -- in small villages, in which basic infrastructure still isn't provided and the public health system isn't adequate, so that you're seeing children who, at a very early age, start having significant disadvantages.
You know, those are all things that I have -- I have seen and witnessed. And those are stories that I have heard directly from people who -- who I know. So, when I think about these development issues, I -- they're not abstractions to me. I can put a face and a name to what people are going through. And -- and that makes a difference.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Some of the images from Ghana that we saw while there, as well.
President Obama's personal experience in Africa next.
Also, you can join me on the live chat happening right now at AC360.com.
When we come back, my exclusive walk with the president through Cape Coast Castle, where so many enslaved Africans died and where so many African-Americans now visit to retrace their heritage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I think that there is a special sense for African- Americans of somehow connecting up with a part of yourself that you might not have even been aware was there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Also tonight, breaking news -- a new arrest in the murder that shocked the country, left more than a dozen kids without a mom and dad -- an arrest and word of more possibly to come, new details on the murders in Florida.
Also, the investigation into Michael Jackson's death -- La Toya Jackson's explosive allegations about her brother's death. Even before the autopsy reveals what killed Michael Jackson, she says she knows who killed him -- that and more tonight on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: I was in Ghana this weekend following President Obama and his family while they spent two days in the West African nation.
I spoke with the president at Cape Coast Castle, where he had just taken a tour with his family. He had just visited the dungeons where countless enslaved Africans were held for shipment, literally shipment as human cargo, to be sent to a life in bondage in South America, the United States, and the Caribbean.
The castle is a haunting place, a place visited by many African- Americans now looking to retrace their roots.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Do you think what happened here still has resonance in America, that the -- that the slave experience still is something that -- that should be talked about and should be remembered and should be present in everyday life? OBAMA: Well, you know, I think that the experience of slavery is -- is like the experience of the Holocaust. I think it's one of those things you don't forget about.
I think it's important that the way we think about it and the way it's taught is not one in which there's simply a victim and a victimizer, and that's the end of the story. I think the way it has to be thought about, the reason it's relevant is because, whether it's what's happening in Darfur, or what's happening in the Congo, or what's happening in too many places around the world, you know, the capacity for cruelty still exists. The capacity for discrimination still exists.
The capacity to think about people who are different, not just on the basis of race, but on the basis of religion, or the basis of sexual orientation or gender, still exists. And, so, you know, trying to -- to -- to use these kinds of extraordinary moments to widen the lens and make sure that we are all reflecting on how we are treating each other, I think, is something the I want my kids to think about and I want every -- every child to think about.
COOPER: How did you explain it to -- to Sasha and Malia?
OBAMA: Well, you know, you try to explain that people were willing to degrade others because they appeared differently.
And, you know, you tried to actually get them to engage in the imaginative act of what it would be like if they were snatched away from mom and dad and sent to some place they had never seen before.
But, you know, part of what you also try to do with kids is to get them imagine themselves on the other side, as being the slave merchant. And -- and, you know, that slave merchant might have loved their children and gone to that, you know, place of worship up right above the dungeon, and get them to -- to make sure that they are constantly asking themselves questions about whether they are treating people fairly and -- and -- and whether they are examining their own behavior and how it affects others.
COOPER: They -- they say this is the door of return for African- Americans...
OBAMA: Right. Right.
COOPER: ... who are revisiting Ghana. And I talked to one African-American lady yesterday, who said that coming here is such a powerful experience, that she actually decided to move here.
And I know you have met with many African-Americans...
OBAMA: Yes.
COOPER: ... who decided to move here.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Do you under -- they say that there is a sense of coming home.
OBAMA: Right.
COOPER: Do you -- do you understand that feeling?
OBAMA: Well, you know, I will tell you, the first time that I traveled to Africa, I think that there is a special sense for African- American African-Americans of somehow connecting up with a part of yourself that you might not have even been aware was there.
Now, obviously, for me, it was different, because I was directly meeting relatives and learning about a father I didn't know. But I -- I do think there's -- there's a sense for a lot of African-Americans that it is -- it's a -- it's a profound, life-changing experience.
The interesting thing, though, is, you know, I have met a lot of white Americans who come to Africa and say it was a life-changing experience for them, too.
COOPER: This is the home where everyone comes from.
OBAMA: Yeah, exactly. And there's -- and there's -- there is a powerful sense of -- of tapping into something very elemental about Africa.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: ... once you have come, you sort of always come back?
OBAMA: Yes, you do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: President Obama at Cape Coast Castle in Ghana.
Later in the program, we are going to take you to a place where slavery still exists.
We will also have more of the conversation with President Obama tomorrow on 360, including serious questions about alleged war crimes in Afghanistan and whether he supports an investigation.
There were light moments, as well, with the president, specifically light gray.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And you are getting grayer. Are you worried about it?
OBAMA: As long as -- as long as I have got you as a role model, I'm OK, huh?
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That and much more, including how Michelle Obama, a descendant of slaves and slave owners, reacted to the Cape Coast visit. And the president describes what happened when Sasha and Malia met Pope Benedict. That's tomorrow on our conversation on 360.
Light moments in my battle with bugs, not the electronic kind, the creepy, crawly kind. If you go to AC360.com right now, you can read my tweets from the trip, including the bizarre bug bite that made my eye swell shut right before meeting with the president. Kind of odd.
Still ahead: historic here on Capitol Hill, Judge Sonia Sotomayor in the hot seat and firing back against Republican critics.
And breaking news: Police make a new arrest in the murder of a Florida couple known for adopting special-needs kids.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Still ahead: Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor in the hot seat and answering her strongest critics. We will have the "Raw Politics" behind today's confirmation hearing on Capitol Hill.
But, first, Randi Kaye has a 360 bulletin -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Anderson.
Security is tight around all Christian places of worship in Iraq, after a wave of church bombings. The latest attack happened this morning. Three children were injured when a car blew up near a church in Mosul. Six churches in and around Baghdad were bombed over the weekend, leaving four people dead.
President Obama picked a rural family-practice doctor to be the next surgeon general. Dr. Regina Benjamin has spent most of her career working with the poor and uninsured patients at a clinic in Alabama, something President Obama says makes her uniquely qualified for the job.
The chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee says, CIA Director Leon Panetta testified on Capitol Hill that he was told former Vice President Dick Cheney ordered the agency not to brief Congress about a secret counterintelligence program started shortly after 9/11. Senator Dianne Feinstein revealed those details of Panetta's testimony on "FOX News Sunday."
And, Anderson, next time you stub your toe or maybe slam your finger in a car door, well, don't censor your reaction. That's the latest advice. A new study finds that a four-letter word or two can actually make you feel better. Yes, it's true. Researchers at Keele University in England asked students to put their hand in a tub of ice water -- this was the test -- for as long as possible.
And it turns out that subjects who swore were actually able to tolerate the painful cold even longer. So, I don't know about you, but I know a few people that might come in handy for.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: All right. Randi, thanks.
Up next: breaking developments in the murder of a Florida couple, the parents of more than a dozen kids gunned down inside their Florida home, what police are saying tonight about who did it and why.
Also, a possible custody deal in the works between Katherine Jackson and the biological mom of Michael's two oldest kids. We have new details -- ahead on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Breaking news tonight in a fast-moving murder investigation in Florida's Panhandle. Another arrest was announced just a short time ago. Police now believe as many as eight people were involved in the killings of a couple known for adopting kids with special needs.
The husband and wife were shot to death four days ago. Nine of their children were home at the time.
David Mattingly joins me now from the sheriff's office with the latest.
David, these arrests are happening fast. What -- what do we know about the investigation?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, Gary Lamont Sumner Jr. is the latest to be arrested in this case. He was picked up in a neighbor county in, of all things, a routine traffic stop.
He brings the number of arrested in this case to four, three of them charged with murder. Listen now to some sound we pulled from the press conference just a short time ago from the sheriff. He is sounding very confident they could be wrapping this thing up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID MORGAN, ESCAMBIA COUNTY, FLORIDA, SHERIFF: We are also encouraged by the information we have been receiving, again, all day today. And we expect more arrests to be imminent in this case.
These seem to take on a life of their own at some point. And, again, we are very proud to announce that we hope to bring all of the suspects that we have identified early on in this case to justice very, very shortly.
(END VIDEOTAPE) MATTINGLY: Saying very shortly means they are expecting an arrest -- it could be as early as tomorrow -- and other persons of interest they are still looking for -- Anderson.
COOPER: I mean, they -- they said this crime was carried out with precision. Do we know anything about motive or -- or exactly how it was carried out?
MATTINGLY: So far, they are willing to say that there was robbery as a motive for this. But they say that there is the possibility that there were some other motives.
They have not, however, been able to nail down or at least tell us that they have any idea why this couple was murdered during this home invasion. They are willing to say that this was robbery motive, but why were they killed? That's the question that still lingers and still haunts this investigation.
COOPER: And -- and where are the kids, David?
MATTINGLY: The kids are with family. I spoke to a family member who tells me that the children are being well taken care. They are being kept together. They are being maintained as a family.
And they will be cared for in the future by family members. There were some provisions made, some plans made in case something happened to the parents at some time. And they are now putting those plans into place to make sure that these children are still raised by their family and raised together.
COOPER: They're saying the motive might have been robbery. But, I mean, this does seems to have been executed with -- with in -- with precision.
MATTINGLY: That's right. And that is something they have marveled out. The men that went into this house, they entered from the front and from rear of the home almost simultaneously.
They were in the house only a total of four minutes. They went in there, got what they needed, and got out. That suggests that there was some sort of planning, possibly even suggests they were familiar with the house itself.
But the sheriff has not said that to us. Still, they -- it shows that there was a lot of planning, and they were only on this property with their vehicles, two vehicles now, on this property for a total of 10 minutes. But they were in and out of that house in a remarkable amount of time.
COOPER: All right, so, there has been a fourth arrest.
David, appreciate the breaking news.
We're going to continue to follow the story as it develops. And many of you are already weighing in on our blog about it. Join the live chat happening right now at AC360.com. Also ahead, judging Sonia Sotomayor -- the historic Supreme Court nominee in the hot seat, speaking out against her critics. We have the "Raw Politics" from Candy Crowley.
Also tonight, La Toya Jackson saying her brother was murdered, and she knows who killed him -- her explosive allegations and new information on a possible deal for custody of Michael Jackson's kids -- when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: It's the first Supreme Court confirmation hearing of the Obama presidency. And, if confirmed Judge Sonia Sotomayor will become the first Hispanic and the only -- and only the third woman to serve on the Supreme Court.
Today, she confronted her critics, faced protesters and vowed to strengthen -- quote -- "the impartiality of our justice system" -- all of this on the first day of highly anticipated hearings that are all but certain to lead to her confirmation.
Candy Crowley has tonight's "Raw Politics."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Her turn.
JUDGE SONIA SOTOMAYOR, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: I do.
CROWLEY: Sotomayor on Sotomayor:
SOTOMAYOR: Many senators have asked me about my judicial philosophy. Simple: fidelity to the law. The task of a judge is not to make law. It is to apply the law.
CROWLEY: It is the crux of the matter. How does the judge judge?
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: Nothing less than our liberty is at stake. Must judges set aside, or may judges consider, their personal feelings in deciding cases? Is judicial impartiality a duty or an option?
SOTOMAYOR: I want to make...
CROWLEY: The legal and political framework for the week was set from the get-go: Republicans suspicious that a nominee who says a wise Latina woman can make better judgments than a wise white man is a judicial activist who will factor race and gender into her decisions.
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ALABAMA: Call it empathy, call it prejudice, or call it sympathy, but whatever it is, it's not law. In truth it's more akin to politics.
CROWLEY: Democrats intent on defending a judge with heavy-duty credentials and a record they see as mainstream.
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: There's not one law for one color or another. There is not one law for rich and a different one for poor. There's only one law.
CROWLEY: Democrats were solicitous of her background and credentials, Republicans tough, but polite. The nominee took it in with her best poker-face-judge look and laid the groundwork for Tuesday.
SOTOMAYOR: My personal and professional experiences help me to listen and understand, with the law always commanding the result in every case.
CROWLEY: All in all, a fairly high-minded discourse on judicial philosophy, but the 19 lawmakers on the panel all feel the strong undertow of politics. That includes the newly minted senator from Minnesota who appears to have lost his standup comic gene.
SEN. AL FRANKEN (D), MINNESOTA: Their definition of an activist judge is one who votes differently than they would like.
CROWLEY: Politics, philosophy and one more thing: reality.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Unless you have a complete meltdown, you're going to get confirmed, and I don't think you will.
CROWLEY (on camera): Seriously, after having survived 17 years on the bench and 3 1/2 hours listening to senators, it seems unlikely she'll melt down now.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: While some politicians question if Sotomayor would be an activist judge, Democrats are complaining that Chief Justice John Roberts has been a conservative activist on the court.
Rhode Island Senator Sheldon Whitehouse quoted our own Jeffrey Toobin to make his point. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D), RHODE ISLAND: Jeffrey Toobin, a well-respected legal commentator, has recently reported that -- and this is a quote -- "in every major case since he became the nation's 17th chief justice, Roberts has sided with the prosecution over the defendant, the state over the condemned, the executive branch over the legislative, and the corporate defendant over the individual plaintiff."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well-respected legal commentator and author of "The Nine: Inside the Secret World of the Supreme Court," Jeffrey Toobin joins us now.
So Jeff, although...
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Can I say one thing?
COOPER: Yes.
TOOBIN: That Sheldon Whitehouse, he has a big future. He's only in his first term.
COOPER: So other than your name coming up during the proceedings, were there any other surprises today?
TOOBIN: There was one big surprise to me. In the legal world, the hot-button issue of them all has been same-sex marriage. It was not mentioned today. In 2004 Karl Rove said that was the key to getting President Bush re-elected, mobilizing his base on that issue.
Here both sides just stayed away from it. It is no longer the sure-fire winner that it was for Republicans. And they didn't challenge Sotomayor on it at all. And we'll see whether they do tomorrow.
COOPER: So is Lindsey Graham right that she's going to get the nomination?
TOOBIN: It's very hard to see how she'll lose. There are 12 Democrats and seven Republicans on the committee, 60 Democrats and 40 Republicans in the Senate. You just do the math. There hasn't been a Democrat who's even suggested voting against her. I just don't see how she can lose.
COOPER: You know, several Republicans criticized President Obama today saying that when he was a senator, he went after Republican nominees for their ideology. So why can't Republican senators go after Democratic nominees the same way?
TOOBIN: I think they have -- the Republicans have an excellent point. I think both sides should talk about the ideology. You know, the party in power always talks about the qualifications, the professional excellence, but the party out of power always talks about ideology. But these jobs are so important, and the justices hold them for so long, we should know something about their ideology. And if senators don't like it, they should vote them down.
COOPER: Well, there's also a central criticism that Republicans are hitting on that she's going to let her personal experiences influence her judicial decisions. We've heard her comment about the Latino -- a wise Latina. Is it fair?
TOOBIN: That really seems like a stretch, because if you looked at her whole record, if you look at how she's ruled in discrimination cases in all those years on the bench, her record is very similar to most other judges. She ruled for the defendants in most discrimination cases. It is true that she was in the minority -- her decision was overruled last month by the Supreme Court in the Ricci case, who involved the New Haven firefighters.
But you know, four justices agreed with her on the Supreme Court, including David Souter. That's hardly a big repudiation. So I think that's going to be a tough charge to make stick.
COOPER: All right, Jeff, stick around. I want to talk to you again in a moment.
Still ahead, new developments in the looming custody battle over Michael Jackson's kids, or potential custody battle. Word tonight that a deal may be in the works behind the scenes.
Also, a place where slavery still exists: the victims, kids; the conditions they're forced to live in, horrifying. Three-sixty M.D. Sanjay Gupta investigates.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: There's -- there is word tonight that the Jackson family is negotiating behind the scenes with lawyers for Debbie Rowe, the biological mother of Michael Jackson's two oldest kids.
Meantime, La Toya Jackson told the London tabloids she believes her brother was murdered for his money.
Randi Kaye joins us from Los Angeles for those details and more in a "360 Follow."
Randi there was supposed to be a hearing today, a custody hearing for the Jackson kids but got postponed for a second time. Do we know why?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We have been looking into that, Anderson, and a source close to the family told us that Katherine Jackson's attorney is actually trying to broker a deal regarding custody. This source told us the family is trying to sort out what they want from Debbie Rowe, Michael Jackson's ex-wife.
We are told the family certainly wants her to give up any notion of custody and any visitation rights. But apparently, the family is also trying to work out some nondisclosure agreement which Jackson even had with Rowe after she got divorced. She wasn't allowed to talk to the media about him or even talk about her children. Our source says the family may even force Rowe to agree may not to give any more media interviews, Anderson.
COOPER: And has Rowe signaled at all whether or not she's going to agree to this and, if so, any word on how much money may be changing hands?
KAYE: Well, the same source actually told us that Rowe has showed that she is willing to hear the family out and possibly agree to a deal just like this.
Now remember, it was Michael Jackson who raised these kids all this time. She had visitation rights originally at one point, but that never actually worked out.
Now as far as money, absolutely part of the deal. It seems like there is quite a large payoff, actually, in the works. Our source told us that Rowe stands to be paid, quote, "many millions" if she agrees to give up any contact and any custody with her two children so the singer's mother, Katherine, can actually raise them.
COOPER: What about this interview that La Toya Jackson gave to a London newspaper? The reporter who did the interview was just on "LARRY KING" tonight, but in that interview, La Toya made some comments about Debbie Rowe, sister-in-law and custody of the kids. What did she say?
KAYE: Well, that interview with La Toya Jackson took place last week, I'm told. And we've confirmed that London's "Daily Mail" newspaper actually paid La Toya for that interview.
COOPER: Wow. Big surprise there.
KAYE: Yes, I know. Right. La Toya is quoted as saying in the article, "These are not Debbie's kids. They don't even know that she's their mother. Like everyone else in his life, she was motivated by money." That's a direct quote from La Toya Jackson.
We tried to reach Debbie Rowe for comment through her attorneys several times today, but our calls were not returned.
Now here's the other headline. The paper says La Toya told the reporter, quote, "I believe Michael was murdered. I felt that from the start. Not just one person was involved; rather a conspiracy of people." She actually used the word "murder."
Now, according to the article, La Toya blamed a, quote, "shadowy entourage" and said her brother's handlers saw him as a, quote, "cash cow" and fed him addictive drugs to control his moods. The newspaper said La Toya believed this led to her brother's death.
Now, here's what the reporter who interviewed La Toya told Larry King tonight about the control his handlers appeared to have.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAROLINE GRAHAM, DAILY MAIL REPORTER: Joe Jackson went to the front door on many occasions, he told me. He went to the front gate. They wouldn't let him in. When La Toya called the house, she couldn't speak to her brother. This is all very suspicious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So did this article in "The Daily Mail" offer any new information about the circumstances surrounding his death?
KAYE: Actually, Anderson, the reporter that La Toya told her Jackson was not found in his bed. As you know, that's been widely reported since day one. But that he was actually in a nearby bedroom belonging to his personal physician, Dr. Conrad Murray. Murray, we already know, and we've confirmed, has been interviewed twice by investigators. His car was examined but later returned to him. We don't know what was found, if anything, inside it.
Dr. Murray's spokesperson told us today, in response to La Toya's comments, quote, "That is just not true. Dr. Murray administered CPR on Michael Jackson in Jackson's room. I'm not sure where La Toya is getting that. She wasn't even there," end quote.
The attorney for Dr. Murray refused to comment at all on La Toya's statement about seeing an intravenous drip stand in her brother's room and oxygen canisters apparently lining the walls.
COOPER: And is there any word tonight on Jackson's autopsy, on the results of the toxicology report?
KAYE: The L.A. county coroner told CNN today that results from Jackson's autopsy could be announced as early as Friday, but it's looking more likely midweek next week. We, of course, are staying on top of it.
COOPER: All right, Randi. Thanks.
Let's dig deeper. Joining us again, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
So last week Joe Jackson said that foul play may have been involved. I think that was a paid interview or an interviewer, somebody paid for pictures. And we just heard La Toya Jackson in another paid interview went further by saying it was murder and that a, quote, "conspiracy of people" led to his death.
What do you make of all this?
TOOBIN: I don't make much of it, Anderson. I really am so skeptical of this. Think about the facts and circumstances we know. There is no suggestion that somebody intentionally killed Michael Jackson. This is just nonsense as far as I can tell.
Yes, there may be questions about the quality of medical care he got. Yes, that's possible negligence involved or something like that, but the -- but murder just seems completely...
COOPER: So murder is different than homicide.
TOOBIN: Well, in layman's terms, murder is intentional homicide. Murder is someone intentionally...
COOPER: so if he died of a drug overdose and was given prescriptions he shouldn't have had or too many or, you know, intravenous -- you know, whatever drugs, if he was given drugs intravenously to put him to sleep or put him in a sleep-like state, and that was inappropriate, that wouldn't be murder?
TOOBIN: That certainly wouldn't be murder. You could conceivably accuse someone of manslaughter, which is unintentional taking of a life. But remember, there's a lot more any investigator would need to know, including what role Jackson himself played in getting the drugs to him. I mean, that's a big issue in the case.
COOPER: And so doctors -- you know, if they tracked down what doctors gave him what drugs, what could they be charged with?
TOOBIN: Well, they could be charged with some sort of professional misconduct, which could result in the loss of their license. They could be sued civilly for damages by Jackson's estate, or there could be some sort of criminal charge for some sort of manslaughter. But, again, I don't want to assume any misconduct on the part of these doctors until there's a lot more evidence.
COOPER: And in terms of the custody, I mean, I don't know how many times Debbie Rowe can apparently give up custody of these kids. Because allegedly she did it once before for a sum of money and then somehow got it back and now, I guess, there may be some negotiations behind the scenes. I don't even know if that's really true. It's all, you know, one source telling us this.
What happens? I mean, what happens in terms of the custody?
TOOBIN: Well, Michael Jackson's death really changes the whole situation. And as the surviving parent, she does have a reasonable claim to custody of these children, at least in the abstract.
So if you are the Jackson family, and if you really want to see Katherine Jackson have custody of these children, the possibility of a settlement is certainly one you'd want to consider. And Debbie Rowe, just to put this crudely, she sold her children once; she may want to sell them again. It looks like this is an opportunity to cash in for her.
COOPER: And theoretically, she could make some sort of a deal, get money for it and not have a relationship with the kids and then, when they become adults one day have a relationship with the kids, if the kids want it?
TOOBIN: Right. These kids are approaching the age where they will have contact with who they want to have contact with. But in terms of custody, which is a legal status for minor children, and the oldest child is 12, Debbie Rowe does have at least a claim that a judge would want to listen to. And it might be in the Jacksons family interest to say, "Here's some money in return for you not putting that claim before the judge."
COOPER: All right, Jeff, thanks. We've got to get some better video of Debbie Rowe, because we're using that video where she was, like, ambushed on the street by, like, a mob of paparazzi. I feel a little bit bad for her on that one. So we'll try to use some other video.
Jeff, thanks very much. Appreciate it. COOPER: Earlier, President Obama talked about the slave trade from Africa in our discussion. Coming up next, we're going to take you to a place where slavery is still a problem. Dr. Sanjay Gupta meets kids forced into labor. You won't believe what their lives are like and what he found.
And a good news story out of Iraq. A welcome sign of change there. Michael Ware is covering a historic battle on the soccer field. It is our "Shot of the Day."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Earlier we showed you some of President Obama's emotional journey to Cape Coast Castle in Ghana. The slave dungeon is where countless Africans were held in horrific conditions before being sent through the Door of No Return and into a life of bondage.
We're going to have part two of our interview with the president tomorrow. But unfortunately, slavery is happening right now in places around the world. According to the nonprofit group Free the Slaves, there are 27 million slaves in the world today.
Now one of the places was a major destination for slaves hundreds of years ago remains one today: Haiti. Three-sixty M.D. Sanjay Gupta is there investigating the modern-day slave trade. He joins us from Port-au-Prince in a "360 Dispatch."
So -- so obviously, Sanjay, Haiti is known for extreme poverty, the violence we've seen there over the years. But you're actually covering a story that very few people know about a form of modern-day slavery. What is it?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Anderson, obviously. It is known as the most impoverished and least developed country in the western hemisphere. But there is this bleak irony here, as we found out, Anderson.
Haiti -- the history of Haiti is very interesting. It was sort of born out of a slave revolution at the end of the 18th Century. But despite that, there is a form of modern-day slavery that takes place still today. It comes in the form of what is known as restaveks (ph). That's a Creole word for "stays with." Essentially, what happens is children are sent from the countryside to big urban centers to work as slaves.
We met this man Jean Ribere-Cadet (ph) who took us around some of the slum areas of Port-au-Prince and introduced us to one little girl named Dina (ph). We really wanted to get an idea of what her life was like and was she really a slave.
Anderson, I can tell you, we met her about 5 a.m. in the morning, where she was forced to essentially act as the water transporter for a couple of different houses in these slums, carrying these big five- gallon jugs up the hill. She was mopping floors on her hands and knees, washing dishes, doing all the work in the house, and essentially just for scraps, no pay, and all of it under the threat of both mental and physical abuse.
As far as carrying these jugs up, Anderson, I don't know if you happen to see the video there, I just wanted to try it myself to get an idea of how hard it was. I can tell you, that's over 40 pounds, carrying is on your head several times a day uphill, up these rocky paths and stairs. It's just unbelievable. And that is a daily routine for someone like Dina (ph), Anderson.
COOPER: Is this legal, I mean, in Haiti?
GUPTA: Well, it's interesting. I mean, we tried to ask that question of the social affairs -- Ministry of Social Affairs. As far as we can tell, there are no specific child labor laws here in Haiti.
But you know, more than that, Anderson, I would say that it's sort of a Haitian way of life, this idea of restaveks, countryside parents sending their children off, thinking that maybe they're going to get a better life. Instead, what we found as we walked around the marketplace, is they sell whips, for example, openly. And they're sold for the express purpose of beating, whipping, torturing, disciplining these restaveks. It's just the way it is. So laws aside, this is how it works.
COOPER: And I mean, it's stunning they're not getting paid. They're just in scraps. As a doctor can you give a sense of what kind of impact this has on these kids, physically, mentally?
GUPTA: Well, you know, from a physical standpoint, it's almost impossible. I really tried to look into that. But part of the problem is none of these children see doctors. I mean, there is no health record. They don't have birth certificates. There's no documentation.
I can tell you, you know, I mean, carrying that kind of load, for example, just that one thing, on young child's bones, 8, 9 years old, again I'm a grown man. I had difficulty doing it once. They do it several times a day.
But mentally, Anderson, there's a really sense of self-loathing among the restaveks. I mean, they really have no value whatsoever, and I think that's a huge concern.
Dina (ph), the girl that I think you saw some video of, Anderson, she told me that no one had given her a hug up until the age of 14. There's absolutely zero affection. They are treated worse than -- worse than animals.
COOPER: It's unbelievable to think this happens in the modern world and so close to America. I mean, this just -- this is in our hemisphere.
For more information about the Restaveks Foundation, what they do to try to help these kids, go to their web site: RestavekFreedom.org. That's R-E-S-T-A-V-E-K freedom dog org.
Let's get some of the latest on the other stories we're following. Randi Kaye is back with another "360 Bulletin" -- Randi.
KAYE: Hi again, Anderson. Two of three inmates who broke out of a maximum-security Indiana prison are still at large tonight, and a massive manhunt is underway. Police captured one of the men today near the Grand Beach, Michigan, vacation home of Chicago's mayor, who was inside with his family at the time. Police are warning nearby residents to stay inside their homes.
The inmates, all violent criminals, apparently escaped through underground tunnels and pipes.
A Southwest Airline jet made an emergency landing in Charleston, West Virginia after a football-sized hole in its fuselage caused the cabin to depressurize. No one was injured. The Boeing 737, carrying 131 people, was traveling at about 31,000 feet when the problem occurred.
South Korea's unification ministry is denying a report by a South Korean news agency that North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il has pancreatic cancer. The report, citing unidentified sources, is fueling ongoing speculation about the 67-year-old leader's failing health.
And on a lighter note, in Des Moines, Iowa, the city council is being asked to strike down a ban on all-night dancing. The ordinance, dating to at least 1942, requires a permit for public dancing. Who would have thought that? Even with a permit, public boogeying between 2 a.m. and 6 a.m. is prohibited Monday through Saturday. Now, on Sundays the ban lasts until 8 a.m.
Critics say they should be able to shake their booties all night long.
COOPER: Well, we'll be following that one.
KAYE: I don't know about that, but...
COOPER: Still ahead, maybe not cause for dancing but hope in Iraq. For the first time in seven years, soccer fans cheered their home team home again. Michael Ware was in the crowd. It is "The Shot," ahead.
Plus, back to Africa. The serious stuff. My interview with President Obama at Ghana's Cape Coast Castle where countless numbers of Africans, hundreds of thousands, millions of Africans were held for shipment, bound for the slave trade in that castle and other fortresses along the West coast. We talked about what it was like to be there with his young daughters and much more. That's ahead, top of the hour. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight's shot, a milestone in Iraq. In Baghdad today, Iraqis played their first home soccer match since before the invasion. Iraq beat a Palestinian team four to nothing, with wild celebrations.
Michael Ware was there. As you can see, he get caught up in all the excitement. Take a look. It is "The Shot."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to international football, Baghdad style. This is Iraq's first time international since rever (Ph) imposed its ban in 2002 in the lead up to the U.S.- led invasion.
Just here -- excuse me, guys. Iraq is playing its first home game, here against Palestine. This is an incredible scene. This stadium is chock-a-block, filled to capacity with intense security as the war continues. But it's this game, this that has been the Iraqi people's disconnect from the horror around them. This is what's the only thing that's united the Iraqi people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's nice to see Michael Ware so excited and happy there in -- in Baghdad.
KAYE: I think in all his years of covering that war, we've never seen him smile.
COOPER: Yes. I know. I know. Amazing.
You can see all the most recipient shots at our Web site, AC360.com. A lot more ahead at the top of the hour. Some of it inspiring and sobering, as well. My exclusive tour of Ghana's Cape Coast Castle with President Obama and my sit-down interview, one on one. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight a 360 exclusive. One-on-one with President Obama in Africa. Part of an emotional and historic journey for the president and for his family. We'll show you some of the personal and unguarded moments we saw such as this one. The president, in a crowd of Secret Service, dancing in front of his kids until Sasha tries to put an end to it.
We also walked through the notorious Cape Coast Castle with the president, literally retracing the steps that millions of enslaved Africans took before being sent to a new world, sent to America. We talked to the president of the impact of this place on his family and on America.
