Return to Transcripts main page

Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Balloon Boy Hoax; Flight 188 Mystery; President Obama Worries Dems; Spiritual Leader Revealed

Aired October 23, 2009 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, breaking news, truth and consequences. Balloon boy's mom apparently fesses up. She's saying it was all a publicity stunt. She has her own attorney and charges yet to be filed. Tonight, what happens now to her, her husband Richard Heene and their three kids?

Then "Up Close," were two pilots asleep on the flight deck? They missed the airport by more than 100 miles. One of them is speaking out tonight which is more than either of them did as controllers tried to figure out what was going on inside that cockpit at 37,000 feet.

And "Keeping them Honest," did the State of Texas execute an innocent man? And is the governor now trying to cover it up? You're going to hear from his defense attorney -- the man who was killed -- the defense attorney's condemnation of his own client will leave you wondering with a defense like that, who needs a prosecution?

First up tonight: the breaking news that seems to close the case on the balloon boy business. According to court document balloon boy's mom says it was a hoax. Mayumi, Mayumi, Mayumi, by now this is not surprising and most people suspected it after Falcon Heene blurted out he did it for the show.

Mayumi Heene has a lawyer and so does her husband. But her confession was made to police before either of them had contact with attorneys.

Erica Hill is working the story. Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes Anderson, just two days after leading law enforcement and millions of concern Americans to believe her 6-year-old son had climbed into that homemade helium balloon which came loose in their backyard and taken off with the boy inside, Mayumi Heene in a sworn affidavit said it was all a hoax.

Now in this affidavit made public today, she says "The release of the flying saucer was intentional as a hoax." This comes to us from the Larimer County sheriff's office. It reads, "That she and Richard Heene knew all along that Falcon Heene was in their residence. The motive for the fabricated story was to make the Heene family more marketable for future media interest."

Anderson, we'll have more on just how long the Heene's had allegedly been cooking up this plan. And what exactly they told their children to do when asked about it just a little bit later in the broadcast. COOPER: Oh, Mayumi. All right Erica.

Now the deepening mystery of Northwest Flight 188 which made it to Minneapolis where it was supposed to land then just kept flying for miles with 144 passengers aboard.

Well, today one of the pilots denied they were asleep on the flight deck which is the working suspicion right now. Yet, the flight crew's explanation that they were involved in a conversation and had not heard radio calls is no less damning.

Today, we learned that the cockpit voice recorder may not be much use in determining what actually happened. Tom Foreman takes us "Up Close."

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: From the time it passed over Denver, Flight 188 had air traffic controllers in the dark. For an hour and 18 minutes, there was not one radio call from the plane, not one response to calls from the ground.

Tonight one of the pilots said they were not asleep as some have speculated.

RICHARD COLE, NORTHWEST FLIGHT 188 PILOT: Nobody was asleep in the cockpit. And there are no arguments took place.

FOREMAN: But that leaves plenty of troubling questions. First, even with this plane traveling out of contact more than 500 miles an hour for more than an hour, military officials have now confirmed to CNN that they were not contacted by the FAA until the plane had passed over the city of Minneapolis.

At that time the military scrambled to launch at least four fully armed F-16 fighters. But that was so late they never even got off the ground before the airliner was finally re-contacted.

Passengers like Anne Kroehler (SIC) who was in row 20 say throughout the process the cockpit and cabin crew gave them no hint of any trouble, another curious revelation.

ANN KROSHUS, NORTHWEST FLIGHT 188 PASSENGER: If any of us had known that was going on, I'm sure the entire flight would have been in a complete state of panic. But I think it's better that we didn't know. But I'm glad that they were at least trying to look out for us because I don't think the pilots were.

FOREMAN: Indeed, she says for 45 minutes as they shot past their arrival time, passengers were told nothing at all. And when the captain finally spoke up again, he said they were just waiting to land.

KROSHUS: We were just, you know, completely under the impression that it was just air traffic and that Minneapolis Airport was not giving us clearance to land and that basically we were just going to fly around until they allowed us to do so.

And that's what we all believed.

FOREMAN: Air traffic controllers weren't sure what they believed. Authorities say when they at last re-contacted the pilots, the pilots' answers were so vague they were ordered to take the plane through a series of unnecessary maneuvers to prove it was under their control, not hijacked.

Investigators have seized the cockpit voice recorder, even though they believe it holds conversation from only the last 30 minutes of flight.

And they are questioning the pilots. Police say both voluntarily took and passed breathalyzer tests.

But for all of that the central question remains. What happened on Flight 188? Anderson.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Tom, whether the crew is sleeping or simply distracted, this is the third such incident in recent years. The crew was tired, talking shop when that commuter plane went down in Buffalo earlier this year.

Back in February 2008, two sleeping pilots overshot their destination on the flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii but then landed safely.

It's a serious problem. The question is what to do about it including a proposal that some call scary and others say is just common sense, letting pilots nap on duty.

Let's "Dig Deeper" now with retired airline captain, Jim Tilmon. Jim, the pilots say they were not asleep but instead they were in a heated discussion. What do you make of this? Does any of this sound plausible for overshooting their final destination by 150 miles?

JIM TILMON, RETIRED AIRLINE PILOT: I really wish it did. It doesn't. And I'm just going to be honest with you. I don't think it does. The thing is that what kind of discussion would you be in that would cause you not to recognize anything?

You know, Anderson, there is some sophisticated instruments on that airplane, probably one of the most sophisticated airplanes in the sky. One of the things they have on that airplane is a clock. What time was it and where were they at that time?

COOPER: Were the passengers on this flight in any danger?

TILMON: No. I don't really think they were. I mean it was kind of an unnecessary little sightseeing trip. But, no, the -- it sounds like the airplane was on the autopilot. The autopilot was doing a very nice job of flying the airplane while these pilots were doing whatever they were doing other than watching the store.

And then of course, when they did take control of the -- they were able to come back and fly. Nobody on the airplane was in danger.

COOPER: Is it normal for pilots to fall asleep in the cockpit?

TILMON: I don't want to say that it's normal. It does happen from time to time. NASA did a study a few years back, I was the aviation reporter on that story. And it turns out that they were recommending at the end of their study that airlines allow and FAA allow one of the pilots to take a nap.

With the other pilot, of course, perhaps going on 100 percent oxygen and taking lots of precautions to make sure that that person stayed awake.

I don't know what the outcome of all that was. But I've got to tell you there is good rationale for it.

COOPER: We learned today that the cockpit voice recorder on the plane only records I guess the last 30 minutes of conversations. So probably recorded over the -- whatever the heated arguments the pilots were supposedly having, that's their story, at least, before they realized they were way off course.

Do you think, I mean, will we ever really know what happened in that cockpit?

TILMON: Well, we may not know exactly what happened in the cockpit. But we also have the flight data recorder which records everything the airplane was doing and everything that happened with the airplane in terms of its controls and the autopilot and this and that and everything else.

I've got to tell you, you know what? Everybody was trying to reach these guys. I mean they flew through several different air traffic control areas where each one of them was trying desperately to reach them on the radio.

The company, I'm told, was trying to reach them on that private radio system and everything else and texting them and trying every other means to communicate with them. Nothing was working. What in the world where they discussing, if that's what you want to call it, that caused them to be completely out of the loop?

It's just very difficult for me to understand.

COOPER: So I mean if they're being -- someone is trying to contact them, is that, are they hearing that through head phones that they're wearing? Or should be wearing?

TILMON: They're hearing it through their head sets, for sure, and some things are audible out of the cockpit console, the thing that company tries to do to reach them makes a little ding sound and everything else.

Here's what I've been told from people who say they know something about this. They apparently were reacting to at least the call from the flight attendants on the flight attendant phone. Of course, their intercom did ring in the cockpit. So they say.

I've got to tell you, that I'm told that that intercom is so loud some pilots ask the flight attendants to just knock on the door because it scares them. The thing is really loud, it's as loud as the fire warning.

So that would certainly be loud enough to get their attention if they were either involved in a conversation or sound asleep.

COOPER: That's bizarre. Jim, we'll continue to follow. Jim Tilmon, I appreciate your expertise, thank you very much.

TILMON: Sure.

COOPER: Let us know what you think and what you'll be thinking the next time you board a flight. I'm about to board one in a few hours actually. Join the live chat now under way at AC360.com.

Up next, Cameron Todd Willingham's defense attorney: his appearance on this program last week and his vocal denunciation of his own executed client raised a lot of questions about the defense his client got, especially now that nine forensic experts say the fire that killed his client's kids was not arson.

We're speaking with his defense attorney and "Keeping them Honest" ahead.

Also breaking news, the balloon boy hoax: that's what Mayumi Heene is calling it. What happens to the kids if mom and dad are convicted of serious crimes for a stunt that, well, included this...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD HEENE, BALLOON BOY'S FATHER: I think my 6-year-old boy, he got inside and it took off. Yes.

911 DISPATCHER: Ok. Where is he at?

R. HEENE: He's in the air.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Tonight we have an interview with a major figure in one of the most controversial death penalty cases in decades. Cameron Todd Willingham was executed in 2004 for killing his three kids in a fire he was convicted of setting.

But now nine forensic scientists believe the evidence shows it was not arson. So did Texas execute an innocent man? And is the governor trying to cover it up? "Keeping them Honest" tonight, Randi Kaye is here with new developments -- Randi.

RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we have some new information tonight about the time line of events that Governor Rick Perry's office as the execution of Todd Willingham inched closer.

I have a fax that I just got that alerted the governor to new discoveries by an arson expert and forensic scientists that there was no evidence of arson. This was the first time an expert had discovered this. And that fax, Anderson, is dated February 13th 2004, a full four days before the execution.

The fax was sent by the lawyer handling Willingham's appeal. He wrote quote, "There is nothing more I would like than to be able to present you with evidence of actual innocence. I think we are close, if there are any doubts, I think we have an obligation as a society to prevent the execution."

So to be clear now, the governor's office was alerted. There were serious questions about the evidence of arson by an acclaimed arson expert and would have had time to stay that execution. The governor's office confirmed for us that Mr. Perry was briefed on the request for a reprieve but they say that wasn't until the 17th, the same day as the execution.

Why the governor wasn't told about this letter when it was received by his office four days earlier, Anderson, is still unclear.

COOPER: Randi, that fax was from the lawyer handling his appeal. But it was a different lawyer who actually handled his defense at the trial, right?

KAYE: Right. His lawyer at the trial, one of them, at least, was David Martin. We spoke this week at his office in Waco, Texas. And he told me that he thought Todd Willingham was guilty from day one.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

KAYE (voice-over): Cameron Todd Willingham charged with arson homicide for a fire that took the lives of his three little girls was facing a death sentence. He was counting on this man to save him.

(on camera): Did you think Todd Willingham was guilty?

DAVID MARTIN, WILLINGHAM DEFENSE ATTORNEY: After I had seen all of the evidence, it was overwhelming that he was guilty.

KAYE (voice-over): David Martin is one of Willingham's court appointed defense lawyers at his 1992 trial. So "Keeping them Honest," what exactly did Martin do to defend Willingham?

(on camera): The prosecution had two arson investigators on the stand to prove that Willingham was guilty. Did you have an expert testify?

MARTIN: We couldn't find one who said that it wasn't arson.

KAYE (voice-over): Couldn't find one, but since the trial, nine. That's right, nine different arson experts have concluded the fire was not arson.

(on camera): What evidence did you present to help defend Willingham? MARTIN: What evidence would you have to present? The witnesses were dead, the kids. Every time you cross examine a witness, you're presenting evidence.

KAYE (voice-over): Martin says he did his best but admits he believed the prosecutor's experts who said they found patterns on the floor indicating an accelerant had been poured.

But again, nine leading forensic experts since have said those patterns were not the result of an accelerant.

And what about this? One of the jurors told us she had alerted both the prosecution and the defense that her family was friendly with Deputy Fire Marshal Doug Fog whose testimony helped send Willingham to death row.

(on camera): Today, would that be cause for a mistrial?

MARTIN: No.

KAYE: Not a conflict of interest?

MARTIN: In a small town like Corsicana, lots of people knew Doug Fog. Almost everybody knew Doug Fog. And I don't remember the details about the jury selection. I don't know why she wasn't stricken.

But so what? Let's say, say ok, she was friends with Doug Fog.

KAYE: So what?

MARTIN: So what? Look at the evidence that was presented at trial. Would any reasonable mind conclude after the presentation of the evidence that he was not guilty?

KAYE: She now has doubts and doesn't sleep at night and she wonders if Todd Willingham really was guilty.

MARTIN: She needs to have no doubts in my mind. He really was guilty. And it doesn't matter how many people talk about it, the evidence is irrefutable.

KAYE: You sound like the prosecutor, not the defense lawyer.

MARTIN: What is it that people expect the defense lawyer to do? I said this before. Just go in there and swallow the story? No.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: Randi, it sounds like this defense lawyer really had no doubt in his mind Willingham got what he deserved.

KAYE: Certainly not. I asked him if he ever thinks about Todd Willingham, Anderson. And he said, no, except of course these days because he's back in the news. I asked him if he has ever given the verdict or the execution a second thought. He said no. And even when I told him that Willingham had written in one of his final appeals that his defense had been quote, "inadequate and ineffective," David Martin looked me straight in the eye and told me he did all he could do, that Todd Willingham had made too many conflicting statements and was his own worst enemy.

COOPER: All right, Randi thanks.

Ahead on the program new age mystic James Arthur Ray, this guy has made millions of dollars. Now he's at the center of a homicide investigation. But many of his loyal supporters are standing by him. You'll meet one of them tonight. She says Ray changed her life.

And later, more on the latest twist on the "balloon boy" story that we kind of knew was coming. Balloon boy's mom giving up the goods to police apparently and admitting it was all an act, even that 911 call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa.

RICHARD HEENE: Oh, my God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Coming up, what makes so many people willing to go to such extremes for self-help salesman James Arthur Ray? Fifty people followed him into a crammed sweat lodge in Arizona. Three died later and more than a dozen were sickened. So who is this man with this power?

First, Erica Hill has a "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Erica.

HILL: Anderson, we begin with a "360 Follow" for you. Three Chicago teens arrested in the beating death of a 16-year-old honor student formally indicted today on first degree murder charges. It is a story we have been following closely. And we'll continue to do so. Prosecutors say the teens killed Derrion Albert last month during a melee captured on a cell phone video.

Police in New Jersey warning a killer is on the loose. After a Catholic priest was found slain in the rectory of his parish. The 61- year-old victim was last seen alive around 11:00 p.m. yesterday just after a safety seminar held by police at his church in the town of Chatham.

Sales of existing homes surging last month by 9.4 percent, that's the largest monthly spike in 26 months. And nearly double the forecast; fueling the surge, the tax credit for first time owners.

And forget Park Place and Board Walk, how about you pocket a cool $20,580 in your next monopoly game. A 19-year-old Norwegian pocketed the purse after winning the World Monopoly Championship in Las Vegas of course. He beat rivals from 41 countries. In case you're wondering the winning amount may seem random. But it's not. It's the total amount in the bank of a standard monopoly game. And he was not a Thimble, not a Race Car guy; Bjorn clinched the title Anderson, with the Iron.

COOPER: Isn't Monopoly for like -- little kids? No, not to disparage his win, but isn't there an age limit?

HILL: Bjorn has an Iron, don't forget.

COOPER: He's got an Iron, ok.

Up next, more on the breaking news: the hoax, that's what Mayumi Heene now on record calling it, including this moment with the 911 operator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYUMI HEENE, BALLOON BOY'S MOTHER: We can't find him, 6-year-old Falcon. And my other son said Falcon was at the bottom of the flying saucer. He said he was in there. But anyway, I -- I -- I can't find him anywhere.

DISPATCHER: Ok.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Oh, Mayumi, Mayumi, Mayumi. After the break, we'll talk about the serious consequences with Jeffrey Toobin and Lisa Bloom.

Coming up later, President Obama taking on Fox, yet, some Democrats have doubts about the wisdom of it. Two top political strategists, Democrat and Republican, are joining us Paul Begala and Mark McKinnon when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Let's get back to the breaking news. We brought you at the top of the hour, the balloon boy saga. According to court documents the boy's mom Mayumi, told police it was all a hoax, she's basically staging the whole balloon story so that they could make money.

And here is of course, the gotcha moment that happened on CNN when 6- year-old Falcon Heene exposed the truth. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FALCON HEENE, BALLOON BOY: You said that we did this for a show.

R. HEENE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Erica Hill has the latest on the breaking news -- Erica.

HILL: Well Anderson, according to that affidavit which was made public today and CNN has obtained that a confession came within two days. The drama, of course, began around 11:00 a.m. local time on Thursday, October 15th when the Heene family's homemade helium balloon allegedly broke loose with their 6-year-old son Falcon inside.

Richard Heene says his first call was to the FAA. Then at 11:05 Denver News station KUSA tells the Pointer Institute Richard Heene called them asking the station to launch its helicopter to help look for the balloon. Fast forward to 11:22, Mayumi Heene calls 911.

An officer arrived at the home 20 minutes later Richard Heene tells them "We've already searched the home, Falcon is not there." But the officer conducts a second search along with the family and still no Falcon. That is until the first grader strolls into the living room just after 4:00 p.m. saying he had been hiding Anderson, in the attic of the garage.

COOPER: So that isn't what happened and we know that now or at least according to Mayumi Heene, that's not what happened according to the affidavit.

HILL: Right, not exactly. According to that affidavit, Mayumi Heene said she and her husband Richard lied. And she said this on Saturday, two days later. That's when the affidavit was taken. The release of the balloon was intentional as a hoax according to that affidavit.

It was a plan hatched two weeks earlier; in fact the balloon was even made specifically for the hoax. The parents knew all along Falcon was hiding in the house.

And she appears to back up Falcon comments to Wolf Blitzer, saying the motive here was to make the family more marketable. Adding, she and Richard Heene told their three sons to lie to authorities and to the media. And according to that affidavit, Mayumi Heene revealed all of this information as I mentioned on Saturday, the 17th.

That next day you may recall, the sheriff said investigators believe the entire saga was a publicity stunt by the family in hopes of better marketing themselves for a reality show in the future.

Now we have reached out to both Mayumi and Richard Heene's attorneys for comments. They have not yet responded to those requests. As for the sheriff's department on reaction to the affidavit, he told CNN it had no comment.

COOPER: All right. Court documents say that Mayumi Heene admitted to the hoax so, as Erica just said, they could be more marketable.

But what exactly happens now? What happens in the legal case? Should the parents face jail time? What's going to happen to the kids? Should the kids be taken away?

Our legal analysts Jeffrey Toobin and Lisa Bloom join us now.

Jeff, I just want to just to remind our audience of your bonafides in this case. Here was your immediate take on this whole saga. Let's play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So very briefly, balloon boy, hoax or not?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: No hoax.

COOPER: Really, you don't think so?

TOOBIN: No hoax. I believe that...

COOPER: You believe in balloon boy?

TOOBIN: I believe in the...

COOPER: Heene.

TOOBIN: ...Heene family. I think they're ok.

COOPER: Ok. All right.

TOOBIN: You can put me down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: All right. There you go. Just to establish that.

TOOBIN: Thank you, Anderson. I just thought they were an ordinary American family...

COOPER: Yes.

TOOBIN: ...with a flying saucer in the backyard. Ok?

COOPER: So Jeff what do you make?

TOOBIN: But you know, you and Lisa -- Lisa "hang them high" Bloom. You are right.

COOPER: That's right, cynical media, I know.

I know, so what -- I mean, this affidavit, she pretty much covers all the bases. She doesn't really leave anything unsaid.

TOOBIN: I think this case is what you might call closed at this point. Assuming the affidavit is genuine. It's hard to argue when you're spouse says this whole thing was a hoax to say, no, it was really legitimate. I think we're all done here.

COOPER: So, Lisa, I mean, can -- she did not have an attorney present. Obviously she has an attorney now. He has another attorney. They don't have the same attorney.

Can she say, look, I -- I didn't know my rights. I made this under, you know, a mistake?

LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure. Sure. She wasn't lawyered up at the time. Keep in mind this is not an affidavit signed by her. It's signed by police officers, recounting what she supposedly said. You know, court battles are made of much less than this. She can very well come in and say, "I didn't say any of that. Why isn't this on videotape or audio tape?" But the reality is she probably did say it. And now her attorney is probably frantically trying to get a deal for her, at least some kind of immunity deal if she testifies against her husband.

PS, no charges have been filed number arrest has been made. We're still waiting for that. Where is that?

COOPER: Yes, Jeff, why have no charges been filed at this point?

TOOBIN: Why? Why not, Anderson? Why are these people still walking the streets? Why isn't this danger to the -- can we just relax for a second?

BLOOM: The sheriff has said they're going to be arrested.

TOOBIN: These people are not the world's most dangerous criminals.

COOPER: They could be building a balloon as we speak Jeff Toobin.

TOOBIN: They could be building another balloon. They could be trying to get ...

COOPER: You have no credibility in this matter whatsoever.

TOOBIN: They could be trying to get on "Big Brother". Look, I think...

BLOOM: But the sheriff has come out weeks ago and said that they could be arrested. And you know, by the way, the timing of this affidavit is very interesting to me because the sheriff said, remember, that Mayumi had been offered the opportunity to go to a safe house to get away from Richard. That he was concerned for her safety.

Well now we know that was the same Saturday as she gave this affidavit. So that's why he was concerned for her safety because she spilled all the beans against her husband and she told the cops that this was a hoax. That's why they were concerned about her safety.

COOPER: I don't even know where to go from here. I must say...

BLOOM: Anderson is actually speechless.

COOPER: I am. Your knowledge of this case, Lisa, scares me a little bit.

BLOOM: This is my job, Anderson.

TOOBIN: You might say a little bit.

COOPER: I appreciate it. I'm glad you are. I'm glad you're here.

BLOOM: For better or worse. COOPER: I must say, though I have been incredibly interested in this whole story, I think officially tonight I've lost interest in this story. Just for the record.

BLOOM: Feel free to call me about another story. You have my e-mail address.

COOPER: Mark the time 7:31 here on the West Coast.

Seriously, what kind of charges do you think they will face? Are they actually going to do jail time, Jeff?

TOOBIN: I mean the sheriff did suggest the possibility of felony charges. I really do hope that cooler heads prevail. This really does seem like the misdemeanor of making a false police report.

I certainly think it's a bad thing to tell your children to lie to the authorities, to tell your children to lie to Meredith Vieira and Wolf Blitzer.

BLOOM: Is that a crime?

TOOBIN: That is very much to be discouraged.

But I also think, you know, it's a very big deal in this culture -- country to take children away from their parents. And based on what I've seen, this does not rise to that level. I hope they get some therapy. I hope they, you know, learn a lesson here. But separating parents and children seems like an extreme step based on what we know.

BLOOM: Well -- but that's a few steps away.

There is an investigation being done into their parenting ability. I think that's appropriate. This father has been very volatile on the reality shows ranting and raving and clearly has an anger management problem.

You know, the child's story initially was, "I was so afraid of my dad I hid for four hours. I was afraid of his anger."

I think it's appropriate for them to investigate, to look into it, maybe give these folks some parenting classes and monitor the situation to make sure the kids are in a safe environment.

COOPER: What I'm concerned about is...

(CROSS TALK)

TOOBIN: On a reality show, that is grounds for loss of custody. I thought that's why you're supposed to be on a reality show.

(CROSS TALK)

COOPER: I was going to let that go.

BLOOM: There are a lot of less extreme outcomes when you investigate someone.

COOPER: We have to end it there. But I think Falcon Heene needs some real education because he doesn't know who Wolf Blitzer is. Do we have that tape? Play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

R. HEENE: This is Wolf.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Hi, guys.

FALCON HEENE, BALLOON BOY: Who the hell is Wolf?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: There you go.

BLOOM: The tale of the Falcon and the Wolf.

COOPER: We'll leave it there. Join the live chat happening now at ac360.com. Let us know what you think.

Jeff Toobin, thank you. Lisa Bloom as well.

Coming up, rattling his base. President Obama worrying some Democrats; why are they concerned and what it could mean for upcoming elections? We'll talk with Paul Begala and Mark McKinnon next.

And spiritual salesman: who is this guy James Arthur Ray and why do people follow him even after three people have died? Tonight, a portrait of a man that may surprise you and you'll hear from a woman who stands by him to this day.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Uncovering America tonight: repercussions from the White House calling out Fox News as something other than a news organization. First, a number of Democrats today calling efforts to marginalize Fox a mistake. Second, Republicans are pushing back accusing the president of keeping a Nixonian enemies list, we heard that from Lamar Alexander the other day. Fox News president Roger Ailes, by the way, made a name for himself, of course, as a Nixon adviser.

Third, after letting surrogates make the case for several days, the president himself got into the act. Here's what he said to NBC News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What our advisors have simply said is that we are going to take media as it comes. And if media is operating basically as a talk radio format, then that's one thing. And if it's operating as a news outlet, then that's another. But it's not something I'm losing a lot of sleep over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: He may not be losing sleep but an awful lot of people on both parties inside the Beltway now are paying attention.

Joining us now, Democratic strategist Paul Begala and former John McCain advisor Mark McKinnon, currently he's with the dailybeast.com.

Paul, clearly not all Democrats are on board with this White House strategy. In fact, one Democratic Congressman Jason Altmire told Politico that, quote, "It's a mistake and I think it's beneath the White House to get in a tit for tat with news organizations."

You know political strategy as well as anyone. Is this a wise move by the White House.?

PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I don't think it's a very big deal either way, to tell you the truth. There is something refreshingly honest about saying what it is, I mean, no serious person thinks Fox News all the time is a news network.

They have some very good journalists, I have to say. But they also have really out of control opinionators. There is this one guy -- I don't think you've ever heard of him -- his name is Glenn Beck yesterday, yesterday on his radio show, Mr. Beck said ONSTAR, you know, the General Motors thing that goes off in your air bags blow. ONSTAR was a government plot to control, monitor where you are, to listen in with a microphone, to shut off your car if need be. So there's kind of a crazy right-wing agenda that Fox has.

My own preference, I got to say, would be to take it outside the building. You know, this is reminiscent of McKinnon's old boss, George W. Bush, his senior counselor Ed Gillespie sent a letter to NBC News's president -- really hot letter, probably one he regrets today -- attacking the network, attacking MSNBC.

Dana Perino, the press secretary, said that they froze out MSNBC. It's the same thing that the Obama people are doing. Probably you'll have the same result, to tell you the truth. Partisans like me will agree but it's not going to make a huge difference.

COOPER: Mark, is it hypocritical to single out Fox News and then say ok, MSNBC is fine because in their prime time programming it seems very opinion based as well. Not only do they not freeze it out, I think they invited the MSNBC folks over for some sort of off the record or behind the scenes chat the other day.

MARK MCKINNON, THEDAILYBEAST.COM: Exactly. That's a big part of the problem if you're going to have a standard you have to apply the standard across the board so it looks hypocritical and it looks partisan. The president may not be losing sleep over it as he shouldn't be, but apparently a lot of the staff are losing sleep over it.

And there's a long history in politics of attacking the media. And it never works. They look defensive. And, you know, frankly, I thought the president on the tape that you showed looked uncomfortable talking about it. He doesn't look like he's even really buying into the strategy.

Frankly, I think the administration has a lot of very capable good communicators. And they'll do a lot better by put something people out on Fox and showing the lot at the Fox network that they're reasonable, common sense people.

COOPER: So Paul, why are they doing this? I mean who's going to believe it?

(CROSS TALK)

BEGALA: I think that they believe it. My criticism with this it is partisan. They're not having a consistent standard, just like the Bush White House, I will again point out which tried to do the same thing with supposed liberal bias of MSNBC.

But here's what I didn't like. First off, I think it ought to be done by friends of theirs outside the building. This is why God created James Carville. We've all wondered for quite some time.

And second, unlike -- it's very unlike the Obama people to telegraph their punch, right. Or to read the stage directions instead of saying we're going to freeze out Fox News -- if you're going to do it, just do it.

MCKINNON: Yes.

BEGALA: Right? If you're going to seduce a woman don't say I'm going to blow in your ear, honey and then I'm going to put my hand on -- just blow in her near.

COOPER: I love that you're giving advice on multiple topics at once. It can be interpreted in many different ways.

Mark is that your advice for dating a girl as well?

MCKINNON: Well, that's exactly right. I mean you don't want to flatter them with attention. The best way to really drive the network crazy is to ignore them. And the best way to get ratings is to flatter them with attention which is precisely what they're doing.

COOPER: All right. We're going to leave it there. Mark McKinnon, it was good to have you. I want to have you on again more. And Paul Begala as well. Thank you very much.

Monday on the program: health care and the gender gap. Why many women see double standard in medical coverage, benefits and the battle of the sexes. Monday on 360.

Up next, is he a visionary or a manipulator? The man behind the sweat lodge ceremony that ended with three deaths. Who is he? James Arthur Ray, we're going to have a revealing portrait.

Also tonight, famed filmmaker and fugitive from justice, today the case against Roman Polanski took a major step forward; details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: In "Crime & Punishment" tonight, James Arthur Ray. He's the New Age mystic at the center of the sweat lodge tragedy that left three people dead and more than a dozen others sickened. Police say he is not cooperating in what they have deemed a homicide investigation. He claims he is.

So who is he? Tonight: a profile of a powerful polarizing man who is both loved and hated. Gary Tuchman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): James Arthur Ray describes himself as, quote, "an internationally renowned personal success strategist and visionary." He says he's created a multimillion dollar business teaching people how to have a better life.

JAMES ARTHUR RAY, SELF-HELP GURU: Once you have the secret, the real secret, your life will never be the same.

TUCHMAN: He sells it here on his Web site, at seminars, on TV.

These two women were Ray followers. On the left, Liz Newman; she was one of the three people who died after Ray's sweat lodge ceremony earlier this month. On the rights, Danielle Kaprowski; Danielle and her husband John admired Ray very much. They attended a sweat lodge ceremony last year.

DANIELLE KAPROWSKI, FORMER JAMES ARTHUR RAY FOLLOWER: He had a very good way of saying his message and giving these kind of phrases that just really stuck with you.

TUCHMAN: The Kaprowskis spent many thousands of dollars for seminars and six retreats and other Ray programs. Did he make you a better person?

JOHN KAPROWSKI, FORMER JAMES ARTHUR RAY FOLLOWER: I would think so. I'm in lot better shape physically, mentally. I've got more self- esteem. Our relationship that we have together is phenomenal compared to where it was at one point in our lives.

TUCHMAN: The couple says that in James Arthur Ray they found someone who is mystical, entertaining and very positive.

J. KAPROWSKI: I looked up to him.

TUCHMAN: But that view changed dramatically two years ago in a Ray retreat in Hawaii. They say Ray challenged the group to break concrete blocks with their bare hands. The result, they say, at least a dozen people breaking bones.

D. KAPROWSKI: I was -- at first I was shocked that he led people into something that was unsafe. TUCHMAN: They were especially shocked because they say Ray didn't even acknowledge people were hurt.

J. KAPROWSKI: It was almost like it never happened. You have to see all the people in the audience with these casts on their hand.

TUCHMAN: They were losing confidence in their leader.

J. KAPROWSKI: You find flaws in your teacher at this point, you know, "Oh, maybe this guy isn't as wonderful and perfect as I put him up to be."

TUCHMAN: And yet the couple had prepaid thousands of dollars to attend more events. So with some apprehension, they say, last year they attended Ray's Spiritual Warrior event, the same event that left three people dead this year.

These pictures from 2007 show how Ray encouraged willing participants to shave their heads, go on fasts and enter steaming hot sweat lodges for long sessions. When the Kaprowskis went in the sweat lodge, John says he got sick.

(on camera): So you felt like you were going to throw up?

J. KAPROWSKI: Yes. I felt nauseous like halfway through to the lodge.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): John did get out. But Danielle stayed in. And when it was all over, she says she observed at least 20 others who had fallen ill. One was unconscious.

(on camera): What was James Ray doing at this point?

D. KAPROWSKI: James Ray came out of the lodge. He smiled. And he hopped on his golf cart and rode back to his room.

TUCHMAN: While there was a woman unconscious?

D. KAPROWSKI: Yes.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): For the couple it caused a loss of faith. They saw hypocrisy, because they say Ray preaches personal responsibility.

J. KAPROWSKI: When you have great influence, you also -- it comes along with great responsibility.

TUCHMAN: This husband and wife, who had been so captivated by the man who calls himself a visionary, now say he's lost his way and must be held accountable.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Ray has many critics, but he also has his supporters. Jill Borsos is one of them. She believes Ray changed her life in many remarkable ways. She calls herself a warrior on a wondrous journey paved by Ray. She also attended one of Ray's spiritual retreats.

Jill Borsos joins us now.

Jill thanks for being with us. You attended a retreat organized by Ray which included going to a sweat lodge. What was the experience like?

JILL BORSOS, JAMES ARTHUR RAY FOLLOWER: It was a phenomenal experience. There were many gifts that I got out of that experience.

COOPER: We talked to three other individuals who went through the sweat lodge experience, and they say in their sweat lodges people were fainting. They were urinating on themselves, losing consciousness, vomiting. Did you see any of that in yours?

BORSOS: Not exactly what you're describing. I did see some people that were very uncomfortable, maybe crying. Just -- just, you know, in -- in a distressed kind of sense where they -- obviously, it was testing them.

COOPER: And we've talked to people also, who described Ray as telling them during the sweat lodge to stick through the pain, refrain from leaving the sweat lodge. Why would he do that?

BORSOS: I think like any teacher, you know, like my yoga instructor says keep up. Keep up. You know, his job is to stretch you. It isn't a command. It isn't an order.

COOPER: Well, a lot of Ray followers say that he teaches self- responsibility. Yet, the sheriff investigating these deaths say that Ray is not cooperating and that the families of the victims told us they haven't heard from Ray at all. And that he's gone back on tour to continue making money selling his books and retreats. Do you think that's being responsible?

BORSOS: I don't know what he's done in regard to the families. I know that there were some e-mails sent out. There were some comments made on Facebook or other things. We actually had a call in support of them. And a friend of his did convey the message for James. "Thank you, I'm so grateful to you for holding this call. You know, thank you for the support to these families."

COOPER: Do you think it's right, though, for him to go back, continue to hold seminars and make money while, you know, these families are grieving and trying to figure out what's going on and not talking to police?

BORSOS: I don't -- I had heard he was cooperating with the police. So I'm not sure where that's coming from.

COOPER: He said -- he has said that he is. The sheriff has told us they haven't received cooperation.

BORSOS: Ok. Because I know he's holding his own investigation. So maybe there's some conflict there. I don't know. Yes, he's making money; that's a byproduct of what he does. But he -- his job is to continue to spread the message and to help those people grow. And he has a commitment to those people that slotted that time frame in their lives to make room for that week or those days.

COOPER: One of the -- the attorneys for one of the people who died said that the family didn't even -- wasn't even notified that she had been hospitalized, that she, in fact, was put into the hospital as Jane Doe. And it was only through media reports that they learned she had been hospitalized. I mean, if that's true, that doesn't sound like taking responsibility.

BORSOS: OK. I can't speak to that. All I can tell you is what my experience was. I was actually contacted to help find her family. And I don't know which of the two women you're talking about, because there were two that went into the hospital or were taken to the hospital. But I know that I was actually involved in trying to find her family, and we went to great lengths to contact other people and to do what we could to notify those families.

COOPER: All right. Jill Borsos, I appreciate you being on. Thank you, Jill.

BORSOS: My pleasure. Thank you.

COOPER: One final note: we have made repeated attempts to interview James Arthur Ray but have been denied. I would add, we were even kicked out of one of his seminars when we started asking him questions directly.

Coming up next, a tragedy almost too bizarre to be true. How bears on ice turn very bad.

And the official first family portrait is revealed; the story behind it ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: A lot more happening tonight. Erica Hill joins us with a "360 Bulletin" -- Erica.

HILL: Anderson, Americans cooling on the idea of global warming. A new poll by the Pew Research Center finds the number of people who believe there is solid evidence that the earth is warming is at its lowest point in three years. Just 57 percent say there's strong evidence, compared with 71 percent in April of last year.

The United States has formally asked Switzerland to extradite Roman Polanski. The 76-year-old film director was arrested in Zurich last month on an outstanding U.S. warrant which stems from a 1977 sex case involving a 13-year-old girl. Polanski pleaded guilty to having unlawful sex with the girl but fled the country before his sentencing.

The White House has released the first family's first official portrait. And there's your look. The picture was taken in the Green Room on September 1 by famed photographer Annie Leibovitz. Now, as you can see, though, poor Bo didn't make the cut.

And one of Russia's famed ice skating bears goes berserk during a circus rehearsal. The 5-year-old animal attacked two people, killing one, seriously injuring the other. The bear was wearing skates. It was shot and killed at the scene. Someone says they can't understand why the bear would have done this.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say you made the bear wear skates.

COOPER: Yes. I mean, why wouldn't the bear do that? Are you kidding?

HILL: It's amazing.

COOPER: You shouldn't do that to a bear.

HILL: No. There's a long history of this, of teaching bears to ride bikes and skate and, frankly, you're asking for it.

COOPER: Yes. That's a history that needs to change.

All right. Time for "The Shot;" I think it's fair to say most of us are casual clappers. But not Kent French; nope, he's the world's fastest clapper. He claims to have clinched the Guinness world record by clapping 721 times in 60 seconds. That's about 12 claps per second.

We saw him on this Japanese television show. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CLAPPING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Wow.

COOPER: There you go. I like how they have little boxes of people up in the corner, you know.

HILL: Really gives you a feel for what's happening there in the studio.

COOPER: Yes, there's the -- there it is slowed down. Yes, everyone -- I like the little box in the corner, people, like "Hee, hee, hee."

HILL: I like that laugh best.

COOPER: Yes. Kent, by the way, goes by the nickname Toast.

HILL: Really?

COOPER: I don't know why. Yes.

HILL: Why not?

COOPER: Sometimes claps to music, as well. Here he is clapping to the theme song of "Hawaii 5-0." Enjoy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC: "HAWAII 5-0" THEME)

(CLAPPING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: It's a good thing he doesn't have a Clapper in his house. He would have blown a fuse long ago.

COOPER: That sounded like nothing like "Hawaii 5-0." But...

HILL: But the music in the background did. So...

COOPER: To my untrained layman ears. Yes. Yes, I'm sure there's a joke -- never mind. I'm not even going to go there. So you can see all the most recent "Shots" on our Web site, AC360.com.

Hey, that does it for 360. Thanks for watching. Have a great weekend. I'll see you Monday.

"LARRY KING" starts now.