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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Shooter Wounds Two at Pentagon; Is Our Food Safe?
Aired March 04, 2010 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
Tonight, breaking news: a shooting outside the Pentagon. We will take you there live in a moment.
Also ahead in this hour, a horrifying picture: What goes into the food we all eat? And new allegations that the people who are supposed to be monitoring that food simply can't be bothered. We're "Keeping Them Honest." And if you have had a hamburger in the last of couple days, you need to hear this story. We're also joined by the director of "Food, Inc.", the movie, and "Top Chef"'s Tom Colicchio.
Plus tonight, a fund-raising document the Republican Party doesn't want to see. It calls top donors ego-drive, and, as you see there, paints President Obama as the joker, Nancy Pelosi as Cruella De Vil. So, who used this document? The guy who heads fund-raising for the entire Republican Party. The question is why. Democratic strategist James Carville seems almost gleeful about it, Republican Ed Rollins not so much. Both men square off tonight.
And how it looked and sounded as 26-foot waves crashed into a cruise ship. Lives were lost. And cameras were recording. We will show you the new video and talk with "Perfect Storm" author Sebastian Junger about rogue waves.
First up tonight, the breaking news. Let's get started, gunshots outside the Pentagon, right at the main entrance, two Pentagon officers hit.
Chris Lawrence is there right now. Chris, what have we learned?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, the most important thing is that these two officers were grazed by the shooter's bullets. It looks like their injuries are non-life- threatening. They're at the hospital. It looks like they're going to be OK.
That's the good news. The bad news is, they were shot on duty right here just outside the Pentagon about 6:30 tonight. The entire building was locked down for about an hour. No one could get in. We couldn't go out. That cleared up. They secured the scene. And the shooter, the man who shot at these two officer, is now in custody. His wounds are said to be critical, very serious wounds.
Here's what happened. When you come up out of the Metro, which is the subway entrance... COOPER: Pictures of the alleged suspect right now, I'm told.
LAWRENCE: Yes, yes, exactly.
And the thing is, Anderson, you know, a lot of people say, how could you get a gun right here to the Pentagon? The thing is, when you come up out of the Metro station, which is a transportation area used by thousands of people every day, coming in on buses, on the D.C. underground train system, you come up, and instead of being able to go right to the door of the Pentagon, following 9/11, now there's this checkpoint where these Pentagon police officers sit.
And, every day, I can tell you, I walk up there and I pull out my Pentagon pass. I walk right up to them. I show them the pass. And then I walk about 10 yards to the building. Apparently, that's exactly what this man did. He walked right up to them. The officers say he was calm. He didn't say anything., didn't seem distressed at all.
He was wearing a coat. He reached into his pocket, like thousands of people do every single day here at the Pentagon. Instead of pulling out this pass, he pulled out a handgun. He started shooting at the officers, again, grazing both of them. And they returned fire.
COOPER: And any indication about a motive at this point?
LAWRENCE: No, not yet.
COOPER: OK.
LAWRENCE: Again, he is at the hospital in what we're told is critical condition.
COOPER: All right.
LAWRENCE: But, again, that's the big question now.
COOPER: Yes. We're going to continue gathering information over this hour. If anything new develops, we will tell you about it.
Chris Lawrence, appreciate it.
We want to turn now our attention, and yours, to the food that all of us eat. And what we don't know about the dangers can kill us. Why you don't know, according to whistle-blower you are about to meet, is simple.
He says the government inspectors who should be looking out for you instead find it easier to suck up to the big-money slaughterhouses, chicken plants and food processors that they're supposed to be regulating. The end result is that diseased animals get into the food supply, people get sick, and people die.
In am moment, we're going to talk to Robert Kenner, who directed a remarkable documentary called "Food, Inc." Also, we're going to talk to superstar chef Tom Colicchio on how to eat well and stay safe.
But, first, Gary Tuchman investigates. And we want to warn you, some of what he found is tough to watch, but it's important to know and important to "Keeping Them Honest."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You may not want to be eating while you're watching this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
TUCHMAN: And you're not even seeing the most gruesome of this undercover video shot by the Humane Society of the U.S. in a slaughterhouse in Vermont, a facility a U.S. Department of Agriculture inspector says he tried to close three times, but ended up getting rebuffed by his bosses.
Dr. Dean Wyatt was the man rebuffed.
DR. DEAN WYATT, FOOD SAFETY AND INSPECTION SERVICES: I saw a truck driver swear at one of these downed cows, pick him up off the second tier and just throw him like a football. I have seen them grand them by the hind legs, drag them down a loading ramp.
TUCHMAN: Dr. Wyatt, a veterinarian by trade, testified before Congress today. He says, even if district supervisors with the USDA's Food Safety Inspection Service saw clear violations of regulations, they would get intimidated by the owners of slaughterhouses, and didn't want to deal with the trouble.
WYATT: And he said there was no way I could have seen what I actually did see. In the end, they told me I either had to transfer or I would be terminated. I was told to immediately leave the plant, to never come back.
TUCHMAN: David Kirby is the author of the best-selling book "Animal Factory" that looks at how the mishandling and processing of animals can lead to serious problems with your food.
DAVID KIRBY, AUTHOR, "ANIMAL FACTORY": You should never, ever slaughter a downed cow or a downer cow. That cow's meat should never go into the food system. The main concern, of course, is BSE, bovine spongiform encephalopathy, which we know better as mad cow disease.
WYATT: Two workers are holding her from behind, twisting her tail. And they continue to shock her as they lead her to the kill box.
TUCHMAN: Dr. Wyatt's testimony brings back unpleasant memories of the 2008 recall of more than 140 million pounds of beef from this plant in Chino, California, where workers were once again caught slaughtering so-called downed cows.
The owner of that plant was called to testify before Congress back then. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were illegally slaughtered underneath the rules and regulations of the United States?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
TUCHMAN: The man who was in charge of slaughterhouse inspectors in his job since July also testified today.
JEROLD MANDE, FOOD SAFETY AND INSPECTION SERVICES: We take these charges very seriously, even if the actions occurred under a previous administration.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Now, I understand that you didn't oversee the agency when this abuse of power took place. But you do now.
TUCHMAN (on camera): The Vermont slaughterhouse was ultimately closed after the video was released. A lawyer for the company says big changes are being made, though, and the hope is to reopen in the near future.
(voice-over): If and when it does, it will be one of many hundreds of slaughterhouses in the U.S., a lot of steak and a lot at stake for the American consumer.
Gary Tuchman, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Sickening, literally sickening, what some meat packers do, and, according to Gary's reporting, what government watchdogs let them get away with.
Joining us now is documentary filmmaker Robert Kenner. He's a writer and director of an incredibly thought-provoking film called "Food, Inc."
Are you surprised at all by Dean Wyatt's claims that he was silenced after trying to call attention to unsanitary conditions at slaughterhouses?
ROBERT KENNER, FILMMAKER: I'm not at all surprised.
Basically, we saw numerous cases of animals being mistreated. And, today, we have fewer and fewer inspectors that are testing the meat out there. And, so, this is not at all surprising to me.
COOPER: Some of the things you discovered are really shocking and I think going to surprise people about what is in the food that we're all eating, what is in a hamburger that you may be eating tonight.
Robert, stay there. We're going to talk more about that right after the break.
Let us know what you think. You can join the live chat right now at AC360.com. We will talk to Robert. We will also talk to "Top Chef"'s Tom Colicchio on eating meat safely and the alternatives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Are there alternatives to eating meats like these that you can still get a lot of protein from?
TOM COLICCHIO, "TOP CHEF": Sure. There's legumes, like lentils. There's vegetables. I think, right now, I'm trying to at least have one meal where I'm not eating protein. I'm focusing more on vegetables or legumes to get that protein from.
COOPER: So, you do that one meal a week?
COLICCHIO: I'm trying to, yes, yes.
COOPER: How's that working out?
(CROSSTALK)
COLICCHIO: It's not always working, but I'm trying.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Later tonight: You have seen the poster of President Obama as the Joker. But did you know that painting the president of the United States as a cartoon villain was actually part of the official Republican Party fund-raising strategy? Both parties' fund- raisers have probably done stuff like this in the past, but rarely do we ever get to see it.
Tonight, the leaked PowerPoint presentation, and some wealthy Republican donors are probably not going to be happy with what they get called either.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We're back with Robert Kenner, director of "Food, Inc.," a really remarkable film. It's an expose about of where our food comes from and what happens to it on the way to the table. It isn't pretty.
And, as you've seen, it's literally making people sick to the tune of about $152 billion a year. Here's a short clip from the film.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "FOOD, INC.")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The animals stand ankle-deep in their manure all day long, so that, if one cow has it, the other cows will get it.
When they get to the slaughterhouse, their hides are caked with manure. And if the slaughterhouse is slaughtering 400 an hour, how do you keep that manure from getting on to those carcasses? And that's who the manure gets in the meat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Robert Kenner from "Food, Inc." joins us now.
What are some of the examples of dangerous things going on in food production that a lot of folks aren't aware of?
KENNER: Well, when I was a kid, when we had a hamburger, it was made from one cow. Today, there might be 5,000, 10,000 cows in one single hamburger. So, ultimately if you have one bad cow...
COOPER: So, the meat comes from all different places?
KENNER: All places. And it could be from animals from all over the world that go into one hamburger, and it could be -- 100,000 hamburgers could contain that one bad cow.
So, ultimately, I think there's always been bad food, but, with all the science we have, we're no less vulnerable today, and perhaps we're more vulnerable today than we have ever been.
COOPER: I want to play another clip from your film. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "FOOD, INC.")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Birds are now raised and slaughtered in half the time they were 50 years ago, but now they're twice as big. People like to eat white meat, so they redesigned the chicken to have large breasts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's incredible that now, I mean, that we basically engineered food like this. It is certainly strange. It's disturbing. But, I mean, is it really unhealthy?
KENNER: Well, on one level, we're paying less for food that at any time in history, which is a great thing. The problem is, there are high unseen costs to this low-cost food. And we're just beginning to understand them.
As the report today, $150 billion a year are going towards food- borne illness.
COOPER: You look at the unsanitary conditions, which sometimes these animals are kept in. And, in clips from your film, there are cows up to their knees in feces. There's chickens who are raised really with literally no room to move at all.
If 76 million people a year are getting sick from food-borne illnesses, who's protecting consumers?
KENNER: Well, the problem is that we have industry that says they think they can do it better than government. In our film, we have a story of a boy that ate a hamburger and died from E. coli, and that the meat that had the E. coli sat on the shelves for 16 days after he died, because the government did not have the right to recall that. So, unfortunately, we need stronger and tougher regulations.
COOPER: And the idea that there are all these farmers out there, and, you know, you go to the supermarket, and you see silos and you see fields of green and stuff in ads, the truth is, these are -- these are huge industrial corporations, and -- and a few just a few are -- a few member -- just of them control, like, 80 percent or a huge amount of the food, right?
KENNER: Yes. There's -- I think there are four meat companies that control 80 percent of all the beef in this country, which is a shock -- you know, it used to be they controlled a fraction of that.
And we have fewer and fewer companies that are now controlling our food. And, unfortunately, they have a lot -- too much power. I think, at this point, we have -- food products have gained more control than we as consumers have. And the balance is off.
COOPER: What can consumers do, though? Because, I mean, a lot of people say, well, you know, OK, eat organic or go buy local food. But all that stuff costs a lot more.
What are people who are concerned about the food they're eating, but can't afford, you know, free-range organic products?
KENNER: As we become more conscious, hopefully, we will make better decisions and buy less processed food, buy more local food, buy -- you know, eat less meat. Ultimately, we're eating too much meat, and the Earth can't take it.
But I think we just have to become more conscious. But we also have to work with government, because, right now, we're subsidizing food that's making us sick. We're subsidizing corn. We're subsidizing soybeans. And that goes into -- 90 percent of the items in the supermarket are made up of those two ingredients. We're paying for those with our tax dollar.
COOPER: It's a fascinating documentary, "Food, Inc."
Robert Kenner, thanks so much.
KENNER: Thank you, Anderson.
Well, we should mention that "Food, Inc." is actually up for an Oscar this year.
The essence of the movie, though, and the story are enough to kill your appetite, but the fact is that we all need to eat. And the question tonight is, really, how do you eat well, how do you eat affordably, and eat safely? We went to Tom Colicchio 's kitchen today to find out. He, of course, is the star of "Top Chef." He's also the creator of numerous restaurants here in New York, Craft, Craftbar, 'Wichcraft, and now another restaurant, Colicchio and Sons.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Were you surprised to hear about this testimony about slaughterhouses?
COLICCHIO: Not at all, no. There were some documentaries done recently showing the inside of -- the inner workings of slaughterhouses. So, no, I'm not surprised at all.
And, in fact, I think it's a good thing that someone is blowing the whistle, because our food supply needs to stay safe. I think it's important. And I think the USDA is charged with that. And they're not doing their job.
COOPER: What are the biggest dangers for people in the kitchen? I mean, it's, what, E. coli, salmonella?
COLICCHIO: Well, E. coli is the big issue. And E. coli is a surface bacteria. And, usually, if it's on a steak, when you cook sear the steak or cook the steak, you will kill the bacteria.
But the problem is when you're eating burgers and that bacteria is ground into beef, and it's not cooked at a high enough temperature, the interior is not cooked at high enough temperature to kill it. And, so, that's the real issue?
COOPER: So, what do you recommend? I mean, someone who is watching this at home, what do you recommend, in terms of how they should buy their food?
COLICCHIO: Yes. Well, I would stay away from frozen beef patties.
COOPER: Why?
(CROSSTALK)
COLICCHIO: Well, because they usually come from bigger packers and large-scale manufacturers of food.
I would go to a butcher and make sure that it's coming from a shoulder, it's coming from a single muscle that's ground in. Usually, a shoulder, it's -- it's less likelihood that E. coli will contaminate a shoulder, vs. a frozen patty packer, where they're taking a whole animal and grinding the whole animal. So, you have belly cuts that have a less likelihood of E. coli on it.
COOPER: But a lot of that, I mean, buying local, buying from a butcher, I mean, all that costs more money. And a lot of people just don't have that kind of money.
COLICCHIO: It's expensive. Without a doubt, it's much more expensive. You know, I think that people should eat higher-quality foods, beef, pork, chicken, and maybe less of that, and look toward maybe fish for protein. (CROSSTALK)
COOPER: So, maybe eat meat a little bit less, but eat higher quality...
(CROSSTALK)
COLICCHIO: Eat higher quality, exactly, exactly.
I mean, even chickens, you can buy chickens for a dollar a pound or $4 a pound. There's a difference between the way the animal is being raised and processed.
COOPER: Are there alternatives to eating meats like these that you can still get a lot of protein from?
COLICCHIO: Sure. There's legumes, like lentils. There's vegetables. I think, right now, I'm trying to at least have one meal where I'm not eating protein. I'm focusing more on vegetables or legumes to get that protein from.
COOPER: So, you do that one meal a week?
COLICCHIO: I'm trying to, yes, yes.
COOPER: How's that working out?
(CROSSTALK)
COLICCHIO: It's not always working, but I'm trying.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: Yes.
But it is -- I mean, something like this, lentils, which taste really good, are really affordable.
COLICCHIO: Sure. Sure. It's -- they're very inexpensive. You just have to cook a little bit. You have to learn how to cook.
COOPER: I talked to a chef once who told me that he thought vegetables were sexy.
COLICCHIO: They are. Look at them. They're great.
(LAUGHTER)
COLICCHIO: That's not so sexy...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: What's sexy about vegetables?
(LAUGHTER)
COLICCHIO: Well, I mean, it's -- that's -- that's a little more sexy than, say, a cut of meat, I guess. I don't know.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Tom Colicchio.
Some fascinating stuff also online at AC360.com, including a taco deconstructed, every single ingredient traced back to its source. It's actually pretty interesting stuff.
Up next: a leaked memo revealing the Republicans' 2010 fund- raising strategy, it includes portraying Nancy Pelosi, well, right there as Cruella De Vil, and President Obama as the Joker, the socialist Joker no less, and more serious stuff that might even annoy their own big-pocketed fund-raisers.
Later, what happens when a big ship meets a very, very big wave? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SCREAMING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's like from "The Poseidon Adventure" -- new video of a deadly moment.
We will be joined by Sebastian Junger, who wrote the book "The Perfect Storm," to talk about rogue waves.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight, we have a rare look inside the GOP's marketing machine. And they're not happy about it.
The Republican National Committee is backing away as fast as possible from a fund-raising document. Now, to be fair, fund-raisers in both parties have probably made presentations like this in the past. But rarely do we ever actually get to see them.
This one was leaked to Politico. It's a confidential PowerPoint presentation that lays out the Republican Party's strategy for appealing to Republican donors. But the terms they use are, well, they're pretty blunt, to say the least.
Here's one of the slides that they used. It's called motivation to give. And it breaks down what they think the motivation to give is for Republican donors, both large and small.
So, let's look at what they say for some of their small donors. This is why they think their small donors give. They say that they give because of visceral reasons. Visceral givers is what they call them. They say they're motivated by fear, by extreme negative feelings toward the existing administration, and they also term them as reactionary -- all right, not very complimentary. But here's what they say about their big-money donors, people who really have deep pockets. They're described as calculated givers. And they're said to be -- look at this -- they're said to be down here ego-driven. They respond to peer-to-peer pressure and to networking opportunities. They have a wall of fame maybe at home. They want access -- not exactly complimentary kinds of terms for those big-money donors.
But caricatures are also a big part of this presentation. So, take a look at this next slide that they call the evil empire. It mocks the Democrats, obviously.
Take a look at -- let me get this over here. This is the portrayal of President Obama. Obviously, they portray him as the Joker from "Batman" below the word socialism. We have seen that picture a lot.
But, again, remember, this is a document made by the chief fund- raiser for the Republican Party. Here's the picture of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi as she actually is. Here's how they portray her, as Cruella De Vil, the puppy-killer from "101 Dalmatians."
And then here's Senator Harry Reid. That's his real picture. This is how the Republicans portrayed him, as Scooby-Doo.
So, now RNC Chairman Michael Steele has called the pictures unfortunate. He also said they were inappropriate. They clearly don't want anyone to see this document.
But let's talk strategy with Democratic strategist James Carville and Republican strategist Ed Rollins.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Ed, I suppose this is the kind of thing that happens among fund-raisers on both sides of the political aisle. But, right now, this document that the RNC put together, they actually fear is -- should be used as one of the ways to kind of get people to give money.
ED ROLLINS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's a silly document.
As James will attest, fund-raisers are always the -- the bane of those of us that do the politics. They always think they have to write a letter a certain way to get people to give. And the reality is, there's plenty of reasons for people to give today to mount opposition to the Democrats.
And I think this hurts us. It doesn't help us. And I think, to a certain extent, it's demeaning to the donors. Donors are pretty smart people. They don't have to have silly stuff. You can sit down and say to them, here's our chances. Here's our opportunities. Here's what we think Obama, the direction he's going to take the country.
And that ought to be good enough to get Republicans or conservatives to give money.
COOPER: James, what about this?
Democrats said plenty of nasty stuff probably about President Obama. And behind closed doors, maybe -- I don't know if they had PowerPoint presentations like this as well.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: But, I mean, they're making the argument that they basically have to kind of make caricatures out of the president and out of the speaker. What do you think of this?
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you know, honestly, when I saw that, it honestly struck me as sort of in -- almost kind of in the mainstream of what Republicans do.
There have had a big move afoot in the Republican National Committee to rename my party as the Democrat Socialist Party of the United States. It's kind of a serious thing. I think they have got seven or eight Republican congressmen who own this birther amendment.
You had some congressman from Kentucky referring to Obama as -- I'm not going to use the word, but it's -- you spell it B-O-Y. You have Rush Limbaugh saying that the health care is nothing but reparations for slavery. I mean, so, this is not -- this stuff here, it seems to be kind of rough by some standards, but I don't know...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: So, you're claiming that this is of a piece with what the Republican Party is actually saying in other quarters?
CARVILLE: Right.
COOPER: Because they're distancing themselves from this.
CARVILLE: It doesn't seem to be that far out of what Republican congressmen or Republican supporters around the country are saying.
COOPER: Ed, is that fair?
CARVILLE: We have had some pretty rough language out there.
ROLLINS: Well, obviously, James, you have seen lots of rough stuff on the other side, too.
You know, the bottom line, it's not necessary. Michael Steele should be responsible for everything that happens under the RNC label. And...
COOPER: Do you think he knew about it? I mean, he's distanced himself from it.
ROLLINS: Well, you know, he needs -- well, if he didn't know about it, he needs to know about it. CARVILLE: Right.
ROLLINS: You can't run a fund-raising operation, which is what -- the national committees really are fund-raising apparatus. They're not political apparatus. They basically raise money. And they should -- and you should watch that on a daily basis.
And you can't let these people. I -- when I was in the White House, I read every letter that had Ronald Reagan's name on it.
COOPER: Right.
ROLLINS: And there were many letters that people would write that were derogatory that I had to kill and go fight with Senator Packwood, who was chairman of the Senate committee, because it was very derogatory.
COOPER: Right.
ROLLINS: It hurts your candidate, and it hurts -- in this particular case, it hurts our party.
CARVILLE: Yes, the guy was -- but he was -- the gentleman that put the presentation together was the fund-raising director for the Republican National Committee. I mean, it wasn't just some kind of wild-eyed consultant out there. He's a pretty senior guy in the whole operation.
ROLLINS: Well, I mean, obviously, it's a mistake. We're paying a price. We're having a discussion for it. As opposed to discussing the merits of health care or not merits, we're sitting here talking about tactics that aren't good tactics.
COOPER: It's interesting, James, though. When you look at some of the details on this -- and this is from page 29 of the document -- I mean, some of them, I'm sure, are exactly what some Democrat once wrote about how to raise money on -- on President Bush, on fear, extreme negative feelings toward the existing administration.
They even say to major donors, they describe them -- one of the reasons they give as they're being ego-driven and kind of benefiting their wall of fame.
I mean, it's -- it's probably accurate, but not the kind of thing necessarily an ego-driven donor wants to see himself called.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Right. Right. I -- look, I -- kind of -- Ed is right. It's kind of embarrassing.
But, sometimes, there's a thing called an unspoken thought, and maybe...
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Maybe -- maybe this fund-raising director should have paid attention to it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: But I have no doubt that it's embarrassing.
But what I -- I go back to my point, is, this doesn't seem to be in -- this seems to be in line with some of the stuff that Republicans have said about this president. I mean, there's been some pretty -- some pretty remarkable stuff.
ROLLINS: I'm always amazed when I get fund-raising letters. And I'm sure you have written them and sent them out.
CARVILLE: I have written a bunch.
(LAUGHTER)
ROLLINS: I mean, you really demean the person who's getting them.
COOPER: James, before I let you go, I want to reference something that was on "Good Morning America." I just want to show our viewers this -- this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GOOD MORNING AMERICA")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tom Hanks.
TOM HANKS, ACTOR: I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... David Paterson's James Carville this morning.
(LAUGHTER)
HANKS: I tell you something right now. You get to go to ball games, did they throw in the hot dogs? If they threw in the hot dogs, maybe I would be upset. But who cares if he gets to go to the ball game?
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's not bad, James.
CARVILLE: Well, yes, it's not bad at all. And he played Forrest Gump and played me. And somebody, I'm sure, is going to say we had about the same I.Q.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: It's pretty funny. It's going to have to be a compliment to be imitated by Tom Hanks. ROLLINS: It takes a great actor to -- a great actor to play James. He's one of the great strategists.
(LAUGHTER)
ROLLINS: Since Dom DeLuise passed away, there's nobody left to play me, so just a...
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: Dom DeLuise.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: Oh, gone too soon.
Ed Rollins, thank you very much, James as well, James Carville.
CARVILLE: You bet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: I should point out, a number of the younger members on our staff did not know who Dom DeLuise was, including Kira (ph).
So, this is a picture of Dom DeLuise, actor. He used to appear a lot with Burt Reynolds. Look up his (INAUDIBLE).
Coming up, look at -- take a look at this massive wave hitting a cruise ship, two people killed. We're going to explain the video, talk to the author of "The Perfect Storm ," Sebastian Junger, about rogue waves that can threaten even the biggest ocean liners out there.
Plus the secret life of an anthrax -- anthrax suspect. This is a really incredible story. Exclusive interview tonight with the scientist's counselor, revealing dark details of what may have driven a man to poison others.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We're taking you inside the mind of the anthrax killer suspect in a moment. But first, Brianna Keilar joins us with a "360 News & Business Bulletin" -- Brianna.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, rallies today in California and across the country. Hundreds of thousands of students and professors holding these events today to protest deep budget cuts. In California alone, the university system is facing a shortfall of $1 billion. Schools are being forced to increase fees, cancel classes and furlough professors.
On Capitol Hill the House approved a $15 billion jobs bill in a close vote, 217-201. The bill aims to spur job creation by offering tax cuts to companies that hire new workers. The measure now goes back to the Senate for approval after changes were made to it there in the House.
And after heavy rains, a very terrified little dog there rescued from the Los Angeles River. He was caught in rapids for almost 90 minutes. And according to local media reports the rescuers named him Splash. And he seems to be doing just fine.
COOPER: Aw.
KEILAR: You know, this happened in January. I just don't understand it. Southern California, the weather's nice. There's no need for dogs to go throwing themselves into rivers.
COOPER: Well, I hope -- I hope his owner was found.
All right. Brianna, thanks very much.
You can join the live chat right now at AC360.com. Let us know what you think about tonight's stories.
Still ahead, a pretty fascinating look inside the warped mind of a man accused of being the anthrax killer. It's a 360 exclusive interview. You won't see it anywhere else. An addiction counselor revealing the bizarre thoughts of the chief suspect in the 2001 anthrax attacks, a deeply troubled scientist who says -- who she says, he was filled with rage. He took his life before being arrested.
Also, a cruise ship trip ending in tragedy when massive deadly waves hit the ship. The video cameras were rolling as the water just poured right in. We have new video of the incident. Two people died. Others were injured. A lot of people terrified. We'll talk to author Sebastian Junger who wrote the best-selling book "A Perfect Storm."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight a story you won't see anywhere else. Inside the mind of a man the FBI believes terrorized America in the fall of 2001, the anthrax attacks. People were dying. No one knew who was responsible.
By July of 2008 the FBI was closing in on a suspect. His name was Bruce Ivins. That's him. And he was a scientist who'd actually advised the FBI on that anthrax investigation. He committed suicide before police could arrest him.
Last week the Justice Department closed the case, and now a woman who may know Bruce Ivins' dark secrets better than anyone is talking exclusively to CNN. We want to warn you: you may find what she has to say disturbing.
Here's Joe Johns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She was an addiction counselor. He was her client. Dr. Bruce Ivins, a microbiologist at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases in Fort Detrick, Maryland.
She says he had a personal problem with vodka and pills, as well as a much bigger problem. He was under suspicion for almost single- handedly launching the age of bioterrorism by mailing letters laced with deadly anthrax in 2001 to two U.S. senators and several news organizations. Five people died.
Seven years later it was all coming to a head, authorities closing in, when Ivins walked into Jean Duley's office, almost out of control.
JEAN DULEY, ADDICTION COUNSELOR: I'd never seen him that way before. He was extremely angry and nasty in his demeanor. The receptionist actually came back to me and said, "There's something wrong."
JOHNS: It was July 2008 when Ivins showed up at a group counseling session for addicts that Duley counseled. He was still not admitting anything.
DULEY: He started in on his tirade and started talking about how he was not going to be indicted. He wasn't going to allow them to indict him on five counts of capital murder and that he not going to go out willingly and he was going to go out in a blaze of glory.
He had said that he had -- was getting the -- the next day he was getting a Glock from his son, and he was going to take out his colleagues at Ft. Detrick, people that had wronged him at Ft. Detrick, the FBI agents.
And during this -- and it wasn't a casual conversation. He was extremely angry and extremely rageful, and he described it in detail. All the ammunition that he had. He had bought a bulletproof vest. He had made a bulletproof vest. He had written a detailed plan on how to do it.
JOHNS: With such specific threats, Duley, who had only been seeing Ivins for about six months, says she called the police, and they took him to the hospital. Later, Ivins was transferred to a Baltimore psychiatric hospital. Then, days after being released, Ivins killed himself.
(on camera) When you heard about it, what did you think?
DULEY: I was really angry.
JOHNS: Why?
DULEY: Because I told them not to let him go. I knew he was going to kill himself. But he killed himself with Tylenol. I said, well, he planned that. He knew that. He knew exactly how much to take, when to take it.
JOHNS: Duley sat down with us this week, just days after the FBI officially closed the anthrax cases. The conclusion: that Ivins was the anthrax killer. So now Duley can speak more freely about her client's mental state. She maintains it wasn't his addiction to vodka or pills, but the root problem goes back to his childhood. She says Ivins had a bondage fixation.
DULEY: The bondage and the blindfolding. Now, if you look at that, on top of everything else, as well, you know, he started that behavior when he was 5 years old.
A 5-year-old doesn't come up with that on their own. That's either something that was shown to them, taught them, something he had seen done to someone else. A 5-year-old just doesn't start blindfolding their teddy bears and acting out towards their stuffed animals like he did.
JOHNS (voice-over): He was also fascinated with codes and puzzles.
DULEY: Just secrets, period. Anything to do with codes and, you know, tricking people and figuring it out or trying to baffle people.
JOHNS: And the greatest secret of all: if Ivins committed the anthrax attacks, why? What was his motive? And how did he choose his targets? The letters were mailed to Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy, then-Majority Leader Tom Daschle, NBC News, the "New York Post," and the publisher of the "National Enquirer."
DULEY: You know, nobody can -- without him telling us exactly what his motive was, you can speculate until the day we die what his actual motive was.
JOHNS: And what about the persistent theory that he didn't do it at all? That the anthrax attacks may have been the work of some foreign terror group?
DULEY: The way that it was done was about control. It was about fear, intimidation, and control. Because, you know, it was done to very select people, you know?
If it was some foreign terrorist, why pick the "National Enquirer?" You know? It was very, very specific targets for very specific reasons to instill control and authority.
JOHNS (on camera): You believe this is the guy?
DULEY: I know it's the guy. I know it is.
JOHNS (voice-over): The FBI says Ivins did it, case closed, though charges were never filed. But we will never know the whole story, because it died with him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Joe, when -- when her story first came out, a lot of people were saying that she violated confidentiality rules, and some raised questions about her because she also was in recovery, herself. What does she say about that?
JOHNS: Well, she admits she is in recovery. She freely admits she had a serious problem with alcohol and pills, and she says that gave her some insight into Dr. Ivins' problems.
But as far as the confidentiality goes, Anderson, she says she had a duty to report Ivins, because he had threatened to commit some very serious crimes, she says. She didn't have a choice but to go to the police.
COOPER: Yes, it's really fascinating to hear from her. Joe, thanks.
Coming up next on 360, two people killed on a cruise ship when huge waves slammed into the vessel. Sebastian Junger, author of "The Perfect Storm," joins us to talk about rogue waves.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight's "Shot," chilling new video of killer waves slamming into a cruise ship. Hundreds of passengers on the luxury liner as the water gushed in. At least two people were killed. In a moment we're going to talk to Sebastian Junger, author of "The Perfect Storm," who studied rogue waves.
But first, take a look at what happened on the cruise ship. Here's Brianna Keilar.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEILAR (voice-over): Terror from the sea. An enormous wave, at least 26 feet high, washes across the deck of the Louis Cruise Line ship with nearly 2,000 aboard.
The moment of impact triggered chaos and fear as passengers ran for their lives. In all, three towering waves struck the ship, killing two people and injuring 14 others.
TOM BERG, CRUISE SHIP PASSENGER: We felt it from the winds blowing through the boat and by the crying. We didn't exactly know then what happened, and after a few minutes there was the cry of calling for a doctor.
KEILAR: It happened Wednesday off the coast of Spain. The Louis Majesty, a Greece-based ship, was on the last day of the trip through the Mediterranean. The 45,000-ton, 680-foot liner had just left Barcelona and in the middle of violent weather.
CNN meteorologist Chad Myers.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Here is a satellite picture from here for the past couple of days. A large low-pressure center in the Atlantic rolled across Portugal and Spain and into the Mediterranean. Wind gusts 92, 68 and 60 miles per hour right where the ship was.
KEILAR: You can see the rough water, the swells surrounding the ship. And then on deck five, the direct hit. We've slowed the amateur video down as the waves crashed through the windows.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody was -- were very nervous. We were nervous, too, because the crew were running.
MYERS: Water pours down stairwells and floods several of the 732 state rooms. By nightfall the crippled ship reaches port where officials are investigating the incident.
We wanted to ask officials from the cruise line about the weather conditions at the time of the accident and whether it was safe to sail in rough seas. But a spokesman for the cruise line refused our request for comment.
Brianna Keilar, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So we know these were killer waves, certainly. Three of them at least 25-feet high. But were they rogue waves?
Sebastian Junger is the best-selling author of the book, "The Perfect Storm." His new book, "War," is about troops stationed in an Afghan outpost. Sebastian Junger joins me now.
Thanks for being with us.
SEBASTIAN JUNGER, AUTHOR, "THE PERFECT STORM": My pleasure.
COOPER: So these weren't tsunami waves. What's a rogue wave?
JUNGER: A tsunami is caused by an underwater earthquake. A rogue wave basically -- I mean, it's sort of a popular term.
Waves come in all different sizes. And most of them are grouped in the middle, as sort of average size. But once in a while, you have exceptionally small ones, and exceptionally big ones.
So a rogue wave is a wave that comes out of nowhere that's extraordinarily large, and it's just part of the bell curve that waves are on in a storm. And it's called a rogue wave, but really it's an exceptionally strong wave.
COOPER: And there's a couple places in the world where I guess these kind of bigger waves tend to occur. And we're just going to show it on the map. There's off the coast of Japan, also off the coast of South Africa and, apparently, the East Coast of the United States. Why would these areas be prone to these kind of waves?
JUNGER: Well, what happens is, if you have just a huge swell it's no problem. The boat goes over the swell. It doesn't even notice it.
If you have a steep breaking wave, that's a problem, because the wave discharges its energy in the form of white water and hits the boat, sets it back and can literally sink it, break it.
COOPER: So if the boat is to the side of a breaking wave then it can be -- it can be broken?
JUNGER: That's right. A swell, it's no problem. So waves break. When waves break depends on their steepness, and that's affected by a current. So if waves are going into an oncoming current, it shortens the wavelength, makes the wave steeper and they start to break. So what they're really saying is that these rogue waves, it's not that there are more rogue waves there. It's that there are more breaking waves in these areas.
COOPER: We also saw a -- I guess it was a rogue wave or at least very big waves in San Francisco just, I think, it was last month. You had people riding these 50-foot waves. And then some spectators were even hurt when a big wave came ashore, unexpectedly, knocked a lot of people down. Do rogue waves ever reach the land?
JUNGER: They do. There's a variation of wave size. So if you have a day that has ten- -- typically ten-feet waves, some of the waves are going to be 5 feet and some of the waves are going to be 15 feet. And those exceptional waves come, you know, maybe one every thousand, one every 10,000. But it's just a statistical reality. And those are those huge waves that washed up on the beach.
COOPER: You have a new book coming out, "War," this summer.
JUNGER: That's right. In May.
COOPER: Will you come on when the book comes out?
JUNGER: I would love to.
COOPER: All right. Sebastian, thanks for doing this. We appreciate it.
Coming up next on the program, the cot and the congressman. Catching some Z's in his office. He's doing it, he says, to cut costs. He also has some pretty hysterical stories about what happens in the middle of the night on Capitol Hill when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight, how are politics and the huge amounts of money lawmakers need to get both? It's part of our new series on the costs of entry on Capitol Hill.
As we've been reporting, the Center for Responsive Politics says that 237 members of Congress are millionaires. That's 44 percent of both houses combined, and few -- a few of them are worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
But not every representative is rolling in dough. We want to introduce you to one tonight who says he's saving cash by actually sleeping in his office. He has his believers. Some also question whether this is a stunt. We'll let you be the judge.
Here's Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Republican Congressman Jason Chaffetz of Utah, bedtime looks something like this.
REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: You just kind of like -- it's tight. Believe me. But you just kind of straighten it out like that, and it just fits ever so perfectly.
KAYE: On Capitol Hill he catches Z's on a cot crammed into his office closet.
CHAFFETZ: ... spend less.
KAYE: Chaffetz is known for his fiscal discipline and his cot, which cost him just $44, is a message to Congress. If more members tried this, too, he believes they'd have a different attitude about spending.
(on camera) You consider yourself a fiscal conservative.
CHAFFETZ: Oh, yes.
KAYE: And you live like one.
CHAFFETZ: Well, the Chaffetz family has a budget, too.
KAYE: A budget, he says, that doesn't allow for two homes, two mortgages or two cars. Flights home to Utah each weekend to see his family are covered by an allowance.
But even on a congressman's salary of $174,000 a year, he says Washington is still expensive.
(on camera) Representative Chaffetz says he didn't even look to rent an apartment here in D.C. because he didn't want to spend two grand on what he called a hole in the wall, and he didn't want to bunk up with other congressmen, the way New York Senator Chuck Schumer does. He actually sleeps here at this townhouse.
What do you think of Senator Schumer and Senator Durbin and these guys who sort of bunk up together in their -- in their homes? Is that...
CHAFFETZ: Those are not two guys that I'd want to bunk up with.
KAYE (voice-over): Chaffetz says he paid for his own move from Utah to D.C. and took a pay cut from his previous job. So saving a couple thousand dollars a month by sleeping on a cot, priceless.
CHAFFETZ: I have three young kids getting ready for college. Are you kidding? I've got real expenses at home.
KAYE: And staying in touch with his family isn't cheap.
CHAFFETZ: We got rid of our landlines at our house and went all mobile. So even my 9-year-old has a mobile phone. That way I can call her and I can text her, and I can communicate with her.
KAYE: He likes to tell his kids about the cleaning crew that surprised him in the middle of the night. This sign put an end to that. But it's still pretty noisy.
CHAFFETZ: It's like this Zamboni that goes down about 2:30 in the morning, cleaning the floors. And you get used to it.
KAYE: He's even used to showering all the way downstairs. In flip-flops, he heads to the House of representatives' gym.
(on camera) So is this the glamorous life in Congress that you had imagined?
CHAFFETZ: You know, when you're there and you've got a big vote and everything's -- yes.
KAYE (voice-over): Congressman Chaffetz isn't sure how long he can live like this. But when the lights go out, life in Washington is a dream. Sleep well, Congressman.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: All right.
Well, coming up at the top of the hour, a whistleblower tells why our food isn't safe and government watch dogs are not doing their jobs.
