Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Amanda Knox Appeal Continues; Herman Cain Under Fire
Aired September 29, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It is 10:00 p.m. here on the East Coast.
We begin tonight "Keeping Them Honest" with the possibility that somebody somewhere is looking at sexually suggestive photos of your teenage child. And you might be just as surprised as we were to learn where these pervy grownups are finding the images.
They're being posted on a site that's part of one of the most respected publishing empires on Earth, or so you'd think if you're reading pages of "The New Yorker" or browsing "Vanity Fair's" Web site.
We're talking about a site called Reddit, which until a few weeks ago was a division of Conde Nast. The people who publish "Vanity Fair," the "New Yorker", "GQ" and other high-brow magazines. Now it's grown big enough -- Reddit -- to be its own division, side by side with Conde Nast, but still, the same corporate parent.
On its corporate blog, Reddit claims 300 percent growth in the last 15 months and more than 21 million unique visitors, some of them post links to stories and photos and others vote on them. The top vote getters end up on the front page. Users can also create separate areas or subcategories called subreddits where they post various subjects that interest them. One of them we discovered is called Jailbait.
Let's just -- let that sink in for just a moment. Jailbait. Here it is. It's what you see after you click yes to the question, are you 18 or older? No other verification needed. Just click yes. But the presumption at least is that anyone viewing this page is an adult. The girls in the images, though, which we've blurred are not. And in cases you were unclear about what the group is about, they have got a helpful motto at the top left, quote, "Keep a teen off the streets," it reads, "Put her in your van."
Over on the right there's a blurb reading, "Welcome to the ephebophile subreddit. No nudity. Click here for more Jailbait." Now an ephebophile, by the way, is someone with a sexual preference for adolescents.
Just below them more Jailbait link is a list of moderators, violentacrez, I'm now trying to pronounce that, also IAmAnAnonymousCoward, darkmannx and ReligionOfPeace. Needless to say these are not their real names, not even IAmAnAnonymousCoward. Understandable when you're the organizers and/or administrators of an online community set up expressly for grown-ups to look at photos of teenagers in bathing suits or underwear and post creepy comments about them.
We're obviously not showing the photos to you tonight but some of the headlines give you a pretty good idea of what is being posted and why "Hot Tub" is one of the headlines, "Teens at the beach," Having fun with herself."
At this point you might be asking where these images come from and who gives their permission to post them. The answer is there's no way of knowing. Reddit publishes a long list of rules for using the service including things like, "Don't use the word breaking. Don't use all caps, don't be rude or correct someone's banner."
It doesn't say, "Don't take some kid's Facebook photo" or "Don't put your girlfriend's bikini shots online." It doesn't say anything like that. In fact, rule number one on Reddit -- on the list is, "Don't post someone's personal information or post links to personal information." And that could be read two ways. Don't violate someone's privacy by posting their name. Or go ahead use the photo, just don't let anyone know where you go it from.
Either way users can be banned for violating that rule but not for posting smarmy, possibly stolen photographs. What's more, Reddit is totally uninterested in stopping them even though it boasts on its corporate blog of the good that it's doing for the world.
Here's the entry from the blog from September 6 after splitting off from Conde Nast. They wrote, quote, "Reddit has the potential over the next generation to positively impact journalism, civic engagement, fund-raising, product development and learning."
Now you can be the judge if you think posting sexualized pictures of adolescent girls fits that description. We of course wanted to know how Reddit, its former parent Conde Nast, and their current parent, Advance Publications, squares postings such sleaze with those high-minded words about journalism and civic engagement and learning.
We called Conde Nast president Bob Sauerberg about it. He actually sits on the board of Reddit. Neither he nor Advance Publications wanted to comment and instead directed us to Reddit general manager, a guy named Eric Martin.
He told us, quote, "We're a free speech site and the cost of that is there is stuff that is offensive on there." He went on to describe Reddit as a platform, not an editorial site. Instead, quote, "Once we start taking down some things we find offensive, then we're no longer a free speech site and no longer a platform for everyone. We're exerting editorial control and that's not what we are."
By the way, in addition to Jailbait there's also a Reddit community called Asian Jailbait and one where you can see photos of dead bodies, adults and children. With me now is senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin who we should point out works for the "New York" magazine. Also former sex crimes prosecutor Sunny Hostin, who's currently a legal contributor at our corporate cousin, "In Session" on truTV.
So is this legal, Jeff?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: As far as I can tell. I do work there. I would never heard of Reddit until today. I looked around at the Web site. I didn't see anything illegal on there.
The pictures of the girls -- it's hard to tell how old they are. Many of them are clearly older than 16, 17, 18. Some of them are probably younger. But all of them are clothed. I don't think there's any issue of kiddie porn, any issue of illegality. Is it -- is it in good taste? Is it appropriate for this or any company to be involved? That's a very different question.
COOPER: Is it OK, Sunny -- do you agree with Jeff?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm going to disagree with him actually. I think it's borderline kiddie porn. I think it's very close to the line. And the bottom line is that, you know, the First Amendment doesn't protect child porn. So they are really straddling that line.
And also, even if they aren't, don't we want them to be good corporate citizens? I mean what happened to decency, what happened to corporations doing the right thing? Why would you have a Web site that sexualizes young girls?
I looked at a lot of the pictures and I thought they were very, very close to the child porn line.
COOPER: I mean if some of these photos are just taken off somebody's Facebook page, they don't even know their photo has been taken, as long as they're not using their name, that's OK? That's legal?
TOOBIN: I mean it's possibly a civil tort, it's possibly something that the person whose photo was stolen might be able to sue. I mean it would be very complicated, very difficult, I doubt such a lawsuit would ever take place. But, again, I don't think that's a crime.
One thing that the president of the company says that was quite interesting and wrong, I think, is that that they are a First Amendment site, a freedom of speech site.
TOOBIN: That's not -- that's not true.
TOOBIN: The phone is a common carrier. You know if I say something terrible to you on the phone, you can sue me. You can't sue the phone company. A Web site is different. A Web site automatically exercises some control. You can see they have rules there. So the idea that they have no control over their posters, that's simply wrong.
HOSTIN: And I think we're all sort of tired of people hiding behind the First Amendment, right? It's so cowardly. The First Amendment is there for wonderful reasons and yes, some offensive speech is protected. Kiddie porn, not protected. And I again think it really, really straddles that line.
COOPER: I mean I was surprised, though, to learn -- I didn't know about the site, but when I did hear about it, I assumed that it was just, you know, run from some site in eastern Europe or some, you know, guy in his basement or living in his mom's house.
COOPER: And you know, doing this out of his basement. But to know that this is -- I mean was under the Conde Nast label and then now Advance Publications, I mean, that's -- it's pretty amazing that a big corporation would have something like this which reflects badly on it.
TOOBIN: Well, it certainly was amazing to me. I was unfamiliar with it. But, you know, a lot of companies want to get involved in the Internet. It's obviously a growth part of the business.
And you know there are big parts of Reddit that have nothing to do with sex or inappropriate. Unfortunately, that's a little like saying, look at all the banks I didn't rob.
TOOBIN: It's not a very persuasive argument.
HOSTIN: Big companies need to do something. They need to do something and stand up, be good corporate citizens and say, I don't want to be affiliated with a site like this. I mean there are pictures of dead babies on that site. There are pictures I think that pedophiles --
COOPER: There's a little sub-site of --
COOPER: -- pictures just of dead people.
HOSTIN: Yes. Pedophiles are trolling those Web sites and they're getting off on it. And I think something has to be done, something has to be done about it.
Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook, follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. I will be tweeting tonight.
Up next, "Raw Politics." Herman Cain's controversial statement about why African-Americans vote -- why African-Americans vote Democratic and his big jump in the polls. Later in "Crime & Punishment" tonight, the Michael Jackson death trial. A damning testimony against Dr. Conrad Murray about what was doing as Michael Jackson lay dead or dying.
First let's check in with Isha Sesay -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN ANCHOR: Anderson, as Amanda Knox's defense team makes their case that her murder conviction should be overturned, we'll show you photos you've never before, exclusive pictures taken of her inside the prison she could soon go free from or possibly spend many more years in -- that and much more when 360 continues.
COOPER: "Raw Politics" now. We've been talking a lot about President Obama's uphill battle for reelection. Well, tonight the Republicans' knock-down, drag-out battle to find someone, anyone to defeat him. They say Democrats fall in love with a candidate and Republicans fall in line.
Well, this time GOP voters have fallen in love with a string of candidates, the latest being Herman Cain, the pizza millionaire and winner of last weekend's straw poll in Florida. He's winning points for seeming to say what other politicians won't, including this about his party and African-Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Why is the Republican Party basically poison for so many African-Americans?
HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because many African- Americans have been brainwashed into not being open minded, not even considering a conservative point of view.
I have received some of that same vitriol simply because I am running for the Republican nomination as a conservative. So it's just brainwashing and people not being open-minded.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Republican voters seem to be boosting Cain's stock right now. A FOX News poll putting him in the top three behind Rick Perry and Mitt Romney.
Let's talk about Cain's new slice of the pie, CNN contributor and former George W. Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer, currently on Twitter @AriFleischer. And former 2008 Obama pollster Cornell Belcher.
So, Ari, it feels like we've seen this before, Republicans getting pegged as the real straight talker in the race, wins a straw poll, gets a poll boost, some headlines, then starts running out of steam. Is there a reason to believe that Herman Cain is going to be any different?
ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think the battle for third in the Republican primary is behind Romney and Perry, the two front-runners, is a terribly important battle because I think it is very possible one of the two front- runners is going to stumble.
And therefore whoever is in third has a good shot to move up to second. That looks like it could be Herman Cain, it could be Rick Santorum. So it's really something important to keep your eye on.
But when you watch Herman Cain in the debates, what really gets through to people is he comes across as so sensible, so direct spoken, so strong. And the reforms that he proposes are structural. No tinkering in the margins. He really wants to change Washington and I think that from a CEO has a lot of appeal to Republican primary voters.
COOPER: Cornell, Cain also told Wolf that he could take a third of African-American votes, he says he's basing that on anecdotal evidence.
You're the pollster. Is there any polling out there that could help make that case?
CORNELL BELCHER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: First of all, do you think you're going to invite me on the show and then I'm not going to talk about the ridiculousness of that statement? Two things. One is a great way to sort of get people on your side and win voters is to attack their intelligence.
So great job there. Really sensible, Herman Cain.
The second part here is, it's really a teachable moment. You know, if I came on your show, Anderson, and I said, all Jewish people are brainwashed, I probably wouldn't be invited back to CNN and I assure you the condemnation would be swift and it'd be powerful and be strong.
What Herman Cain said was a racist, bigoted statement and it should treated like a racist and bigoted person who makes those racist and bigoted statements.
COOPER: Ari, what about that? I mean saying black voters have been brainwashed, how does that language play outside his supporters?
FLEISCHER: Anderson, I'm not -- I'm not even going there. I'm not even -- Anderson, I'm not even going, I will leave that alone. I think the downside to the Herman Cain candidacy are probably twofold. One, it's a Catch-22 for him. That's catch-23 can address.
He can't win because people think he can't win. If he continues and is just persistent and keeps working in the way he's working, and just as able to break through, he'll get through the highest barrier or the hardest barrier, which is credibility because people don't think he can do it. So that just comes from plugging ahead.
The other is something I'm a little more focused on and that's he's never been in government before. While it's attractive on the one hand, having worked in the White House, you really need to have somebody who knows how to do things with Congress, lead Congress, get Congress where you want them to go.
I wish he had been a successful governor, I wish he was a one- term governor, or two-term governor. If he was, Anderson, I would predict to you he would very be the front-runner or almost the front- runner in the Republican race right now.
BELCHER: You know, I -- no, I'm all in on this one. So, Ari, if he had said -- came on a statement on and said that all Jewish people are brainwashed, you would just leave that alone? You wouldn't touch that at all? But it's different if he says that about African- Americans? Why aren't you touching this?
FLEISCHER: Because I'm not going to get into racial politics. I think nobody wins when people --
BELCHER: And he didn't get into racial politics when he said all black people were brainwashed?
COOPER: Cornell, let me ask you --
BELCHER: He's number three right now in the polls and he's getting into racial politics saying that all black people were brainwashed?
FLEISCHER: Cornell? Cornell? Pick your fight with Herman Cain. Don't pick your fight --
COOPER: Cornell --
BELCHER: The fight is not with me. I actually consider you a friend. I'm --
FLEISCHER: Cornell, pick your fight with Herman Cain. Don't pick your fight with me.
BELCHER: I actually consider you a friend. I'm not fighting you. I'm just asking a question because I can't believe that there's no condemnation about such a bigoted statement.
COOPER: Cornell, let me just ask you. I mean -- are you sure it's racist? I mean, don't plenty of people make the statement that well, this group is brainwashed --
BELCHER: What is the definition of "racism" or "bigotry"? It is in fact putting a blank statement on a whole group of people. And again, Anderson, I guarantee you, if I came on your program and said that all Jewish people were brainwashed, you wouldn't invite me back on this -- on CNN. I would not be back on CNN. I'm sure of that. There's a double standard here. I think this is a teachable moment.
COOPER: Don't people often say, though, well, liberals think this, or -- I mean people make vast statements about groups all the time.
BELCHER: Well -- well --
COOPER: I mean independent voters think this or --
BELCHER: Well -- well, liberals didn't have a history of Jim Crowe or slavery so it's different.
COOPER: I'm not arguing with you. I'm interested in your perspective. So that's why I'm just kind of probing around the edges.
BELCHER: And it's not an argument.
BELCHER: Again, I'm trying to look at this as a teachable moment because clearly to me there's a double standard going on here and it's outrageous.
COOPER: Do you think -- how do you think his statement, Herman Cain's statement, are you surprised that it hasn't gotten the reaction that you've had?
COOPER: I mean certainly it's raised a lot of eyebrows.
BELCHER: Well, that's my point
COOPER: A lot of people are talking about it.
BELCHER: Well, that's my point. In all due respect, if he had came on this -- the network and said that all Jewish people were brainwashed it would have been -- it's top of the news and the condemnation would have come from all sides, including my friend Ari Fleischer. So my only point about this is --
FLEISCHER: You know, Anderson --
BELCHER: -- you can't play the double standard politics.
FLEISCHER: Anderson, let me jump in.
FLEISCHER: Let me jump in. I'm not -- I'm not going to dwell on this topic, but remember the question was about people being poisoned about a party. So there's a presumption in the question also that just flows from the fact that 90 to 95 percent of African-Americans vote a certain way.
But when people start throwing the word "racism" around that's when I end the conversation because you cannot have an intelligent conversation when people are accusing people in the public square of that. So I'm not even want to get into that topic.
COOPER: Cornell --
FLEISCHER: What you have is this fascinating dynamic --
FLEISCHER: Cornell, don't interrupt.
BELCHER: When someone makes a bigoted or a racist --
BELCHER: Ari, I think I'm not going to be bashful about calling them a racist or a bigot. And it's a bigoted statement, when you're calling all black people brainwashed --
FLEISCHER: Are you done, Cornell?
BELCHER: -- that's a bigoted statement. That's a bigoted statement, Ari.
FLEISCHER: Cornell --
COOPER: OK --
BELCHER: Yes, I'm done.
FLEISCHER: Cornell, "CROSSFIRE" got canceled for a reason. Let me finish.
What's happening in the Republican primary right now is this fascinating dynamic where there still is a search under way for who will be the leader of the Republican Party.
And Republicans are thirsty for somebody who was really going to change Washington. And that's what my point was before about why I think Republicans are responding so well to Herman Cain's rhetoric.
Washington needs to have fundamental substantive changes in the taxes and the spending. And when you have career politicians going and saying, I'm going to do a little less of what was done before, it doesn't really resonate.
Herman Cain is resonating because he's got that outsider perspective. He's got those two downsides like I said, but I think he's somebody who has a good chance to end up in that third slot and nobody knows what can happen from there.
COOPER: Cornell, what do you -- Herman Cain's other point beyond his use of that term, brainwashing, about African-Americans in large numbers voting for Democrats, his point being -- I won't try to make his point really. But do you -- I mean it's clear that African- Americans have traditionally voted Democratic. To what do you attribute that?
BELCHER: Well, historically, you know, once upon a time African- Americans overwhelmingly voted Republican when they in fact could vote. So you've got to understand that African-Americans make policy decisions and they change -- using reason, it's not -- it's not about brainwashing.
You know, there was still -- would it -- if I said that, you know, 70 percent of whites in the South vote Republican, are they brainwashed? No. I think they're making a logical decision based on their values and their issue positioning. And when you say a group of voters aren't making that same sort of rational thing --
BELCHER: Yes, I think I'm right in sort of calling that crap out.
COOPER: Do you think he should apologize for that?
BELCHER: You know, I don't look for an apology from him because I don't think he has that sort of sensitivity or -- even the intellect to even understand that. And I think it's amusing to me that he's now number three in the polls. Although quite frankly, I think he's not going to win South Carolina. He's not going to win Iowa. So -- and he's not going to win New Hampshire. And if you don't come in second or first in one of those -- in one of those early states you're not going to be the nominee for the Republican Party.
COOPER: Do you think, Cornell, that he is bigoted or that he is racist, or it was just the statement in your opinion racist and inappropriate?
BELCHER: Well, I don't know, Anderson. When people are using bigoted statements, are they bigots?
FLEISCHER: You know, Anderson, that's why I was making my point before. There are voter blocs in this country that for whatever the reason they decide to vote overwhelmingly one way or another.
And I don't see why somebody would say -- somebody is being racist when they say they vote overwhelmingly as a bloc and they used the word brainwashed?
BELCHER: He did say...
FLEISCHER: As Cornell pointed out, white Southerners vote overwhelmingly in one direction. I don't think that's a racist thing to say one way or another. The word brainwash, of course, has the old connotations of what Mitt Romney's father said in New -- in Michigan some 40 years ago or 50 -- 40 years ago. And so I think that's why it also raised alarms.
But clearly there are blocs in this country who vote the way they do. And that's been a historical pattern up and down every demographic strata you can divide the electorate over. That's part of America. Always has been.
COOPER: Cornell? BELCHER: And you know what? And if you say that, that's fine. But when you say that people are brainwashed -- a certain racial group is brainwashed for doing -- for doing that, that's the problem.
COOPER: Interesting discussion. Cornell, appreciate it.
FLEISCHER: But it's not racist.
BELCHER: It's bigoted. And if someone is making bigoted statements, yes, I have got no problem calling them a racist or a bigot.
COOPER: Guys, interesting discussion. Appreciate you having it, Cornell Belcher, Ari Fleischer, thank you.
Programming note, we're announcing the Arizona Republican Party and CNN is going to co-host a GOP presidential debate December 1 in Arizona, coming up on October 18 in Las Vegas, the Western Republican Presidential debate. That's at 8:00 p. m. Eastern right here on CNN.
Let's see if Herman Cain gets some questions on that.
Still ahead, an exclusive look inside the Italian prison where Amanda Knox has spent the past four years.
Also ahead, the latest from the trial of Michael Jackson's doctor, including testimony from the man who called 911 -- what he says Dr. Conrad Murray asked him to do before calling for help.
And new details tonight about Paris Jackson's heartbreaking reaction to seeing her father the day he died.
COOPER: "Up Close" tonight: an exclusive look at Amanda Knox behind bars in Italy.
CNN's Matthew Chance has a rare look inside the prison. We'll have more on that in a moment, but first what happened in court today as Knox's appeal case nears the end. One of Knox's lawyers said the only option is to clear her of guilt in the murder of her housemate Meredith Kercher, because of alleged mistakes made in the investigation.
He says DNA was contaminated and then Knox wasn't allowed a translator when she was arrested and was discouraged from getting a lawyer. The judge said there will not be a ruling on the appeal until Monday at the earliest. Another one of her lawyers says Knox is very afraid but she's hoping to return to freedom.
Meanwhile tonight, as I said, we have an exclusive, never-before- seen pictures of Knox inside prison from kind of a unique source. A local rock band that played at the jail.
Senior international correspondent Matthew Chance reports.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Four years behind bars for a crime she says she did not commit. But it seems Amanda Knox does have brief moments of escape.
These are exclusive photos of Knox in prison, dancing to the music of a local rock band playing to inmates. One is taken from behind as she jumps to the music. Another catches her profile listening intently.
LEO ARIEL, HANDS OF TIME BAND LEADER: I mean everyone inside the jail needs moments like this. They need to escape their situations, their nightmares, their state of mind. So they're all having fun with our songs. They're all singing our songs.
CHANCE: But the band members say they have become particular friends with Amanda, even collaborating with her on a forthcoming music video. They say she also sends them poems and letters about her life behind bars.
ARIEL: She's struggling a lot. I mean, she knows this is what -- I mean I can see in her letter, she knows she shouldn't be there, and she's struggling with the fact that she can't be with the people she loves and she can't do the things that she loves to do.
CHANCE: At court for a murder appeal, Amanda looks pale and under stress as her parents watch with concern. Her father told me it's taking an emotional toll.
CURT KNOX, AMANDA KNOX'S FATHER: Well, you know, it's been a struggle, you know, this entire time being in prison, having your freedom taken away for something you haven't done. But, you know, these past few months have really been a struggle for her, just because, you know, there's the -- the light is really on at the end of the tunnel.
CHANCE: But these images appear to capture a rare moment of joy, the pressures of a prison sentence briefly cast away.
COOPER: Matthew joins us now from Italy.
Matthew, how much access is Amanda Knox allowed to visitors and to family?
CHANCE: Not a great deal. She's allowed to see visitors once a week, on a Sunday. It's usually her family that do that along with a friend of hers who's been moving to this place Perugia, in order to be close to her friend.
And so they get those visitors every week. But you know she also gets people inside the jail like a local priest who's befriended her very much and has provided counsel to her, given her advice about how to get through this very tough period in her life, and that's how she manages to remain in contact with the outside world. Not a great deal of contact, but you know there are family members and people who have befriended her in the prison and from the local church.
COOPER: What happens next with the trial?
CHANCE: Well, the trial is very shortly coming to a conclusion.
We expect, on Monday morning, Amanda Knox, along with her co- accused, Raffaele Sollecito, will give their pleas of innocence to the court. They will each be permitted to speak for 15 minutes each.
Then the -- the jury and the judge will retire to consider their verdict. We're expecting one to come at some point later on Monday afternoon.
COOPER: Matthew Chance in Italy tonight. Matthew, thank you.
Now let's check in on some other stories we're following. Isha is back with the "360 News & Business Bulletin."
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, a federal grand jury today indicted a Massachusetts man for his alleged terror plot against America. Rezwan Ferdaus was arrested in an undercover FBI sting yesterday. Authorities say he planned to use explosive-filled remote- control model airplanes to blow up the Pentagon and the U.S. Capitol.
Another undercover sting today, this one near Philadelphia, where agents arrested more than three dozen employees at a Boeing manufacturing plant. Twenty-three have been charged with illegal distribution of prescription drugs, including Fentanyl, Oxycodone and Xanax.
Get ready for more bank fees beginning early next year. Bank of America will charge $5 a month for purchases on your debit cards.
And Marilyn Monroe's wedding band hits the auction block. The diamond and platinum band is expected to fetch up to $500,000 when bidding opens this December. Baseball great Joe DiMaggio gave Monroe the ring when they were married in 1954. They divorced less than a year later.
That's the kind of surprise I'd like in my Christmas stocking, Anderson.
COOPER: All right. I'll keep that in mind.
Coming up, day three of the Michael Jackson death trial. One of Jackson's former employee testifying about chaotic moments before he called 911. And Paris Jackson's gut-wrenching first glimpse of her dying dad. Randi Kaye has the latest from Los Angeles.
Plus, a U.S. ambassador attacked in Syria. Why the angry mob struck and the angry reaction from Washington, next.
COOPER: "Crime & Punishment" tonight, emotional testimony in day three of the Michael Jackson death trial. Dr. Conrad Murray, now facing manslaughter charges, was by the pop star's side when he died two years ago.
But today, the man who dialed 911 describes those first frantic moments before calling for help, moments he says Murray wasted cleaning up empty drug vials. Jurors also heard how Jackson's oldest children walked in on the scene, and we got details of Paris' first glimpse of her dying dad.
Here's Randi Kaye with the latest.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Michael Jackson lay dying in his bedroom, this man told the jury Conrad Murray was busy directing him to pack up the drugs in the room and put them away. Jackson's director of logistics, Alberto Alvarez, testified that while they waited for paramedics to arrive, Murray was on cleanup patrol.
ALBERTO ALVAREZ, JACKSON'S DIRECTOR OF LOGISTICS: I was standing at the foot of the bed. He reached over and grabbed a handful of vials, and then he reached out to me and said, "Here, put these in a bag."
DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: And when you removed the saline bag from the IV stand, was this the type?
ALVAREZ: Yes, sir. Like I said, it was at my eye level, and I was able to notice that at the bottom of the bag, there was what appeared to me like a milky Wecht substance, sir.
KAYE: A milky Wecht substance. Remember, Jackson liked to call Propofol his milk. That was the powerful anesthetic Murray gave Jackson through an IV to help him sleep.
Not only was Murray looking to clean up the drugs, but he was looking for someone to help save his star patient. Alvarez told the jury Murray asked him to help revive Jackson, who lay lifeless on the bed.
WALGREN: Now, as you came in and saw Conrad Murray giving compressions, or what you describe as compressions, was he using one hand or two hands?
ALVAREZ: He was using one hand, sir. He had his hand with his palm open, and he was giving chest compressions in this manner.
KAYE: The prosecution hoped the jury would realize Dr. Murray was doing CPR wrong, using one-handed chest compressions on Jackson's soft bed instead of the firm floor. And there's more.
ALVAREZ: He was giving mouth to mouth, sir.
WALGREN: And what, if anything, did Dr. Murray say as he was giving mouth to mouth, to Mr. Jackson?
ALVAREZ: I recall that after a couple or a few breaths, then he breathed into Mr. Jackson, he came up and he says -- he said, "This is the first time I do mouth to mouth, but I have to. He's my friend."
KAYE: In all the hysteria, Alvarez noticed Jackson's two older children watching if horror.
ALVAREZ: They were right behind me, and Paris screamed out "Daddy."
Dr. Conrad Murray said, "Don't let them -- don't let them see their dad like this."
KAYE: In between helping with CPR and clearing out the drugs in the room, Alvarez says Murray asked him to call 911.
On cross-examination, defense attorney Ed Chernoff tried to cast doubt on Alvarez's timeline, hoping to show Dr. Murray did have his priorities in order.
ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Isn't it actually likely that, when you talk about things being put away, it was after the paramedics came and before you went to the hospital?
ALVAREZ: No, sir.
KAYE: Alvarez told the jury Jackson did not appear to be alive, even as they struggled to save him. He also said he noticed something peculiar on his body.
ALVAREZ: I recall seeing what appeared to be a plastic bag or some sort of medical device like that, and it was on his penis.
KAYE: What he saw is called a condom catheter, something that would allow Michael Jackson to sleep for long periods and not have to get up to use the bathroom. This pokes holes in the defense theory that Jackson got up when Dr. Murray left the room, downed eight Lorazepam pills, and then returned and gave himself the fatal dose of Propofol, not realizing the mix would kill him.
COOPER: Randi, Jackson's personal chef testified late this afternoon. What stood out in her testimony?
KAYE: Anderson, she gave some new details about Dr. Murray's behavior when Michael Jackson actually stopped breathing. She told the jury that she was preparing lunch for Jackson in the kitchen downstairs when Conrad Murray came down from upstairs in a panic. She described him as frantic. She said that he shouted to her to, quote, "Get help, get security, get Prince." As you know, that's Jackson's oldest son.
What's key here: she said Dr. Murray did not tell her to call 911. And this all happened, according to the chef, at 12:05 or so local time. That would be 15 minutes, Anderson, before 911 was ever called, a critical 15 minutes.
COOPER: Yes, critical indeed. Randi, thanks. Digging deeper now with chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta and criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos, both in Los Angeles tonight.
Mark, Jackson's security guard testifying, and one of the things that really stood out from his testimony was that Dr. Murray told him to put vials, pills, bottles, even an IV into a bag before anyone called 911.
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. The problem with the testimony -- and it's obviously going to be up to the jury to decide what they're going to believe -- is if you listen to the cross- examination, as well, by the defense, it appeared that the story kind of was embellished or not told for the first time until a couple of months later, that it did look like all of this could have been done in the short, compressed time that was described on direct.
So, it's going to really be up to the jury to decide, do we believe that, or is this kind of an after-acquired memory?
COOPER: So the idea is, because several witnesses have now told stories months later to authorities that they hadn't told immediately after. You're saying, what, that they -- they came up with new memories or they -- that puts doubt?
GERAGOS: Right. The -- look, jurors are instructed -- they're going to get jury instructions that tell them they have to know or they have to take a look at people's demeanor. They have to judge consistencies or inconsistencies, when they first told the story, for instance.
A lot of these people waited for months and months to tell any kind of a story whatsoever, until it was clear that Dr. Murray had become the focus of the probe. I guarantee you the defense is going to be arguing that.
That does not take away from the compelling nature -- if the jury, in fact, believes that it happened this way, --of the testimony, but first the jury has to get over the hurdle: is this something that actually happened or is this somebody that's kind of looking through the looking glass of the prosecution's theory here?
COOPER: Sanjay, Alvarez also said the IV bag that Murray told him to put away had a milky Wecht substance at the bottom of it. Does that indicate anything to you?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is that same substance, you know, the Propofol that people have been talking about for some time does have a sort of milky Wecht, creamy Wecht look to it.
What is interesting about this is that there's been, you know, this back and forth: was this Propofol, was it given in a syringe, which was injected into the tubing that was given to Michael Jackson, or was it actually sort of more of a drip in this IV bag? At least from that specific testimony, Anderson, even within that area, they were going back and forth, but that milky Wecht substance seems to indicate it was a drip coming from the IV bag into the tubing, not a one-time injection.
COOPER: Mark, how much emphasis in the days ahead do you think is the defense going to put on Arnie Klein, on the dermatologist?
GERAGOS: I think they're going to put a lot of emphasis on Arnie Klein. I think that that is, to them, kind of the alternate suspect, if you will. He's the -- he's the guy that the defense has propped up as giving and dispensing and basically being Michael's pusher, so to speak.
COOPER: They're saying he was giving him Demerol.
GERAGOS: That's all being done unbeknownst. Yes. Giving him Demerol and pushing it on him and doing it under different prescriptions and the like. By doing that, unbeknownst to Conrad Murray, is the defense theory, that's what set Michael up for his -- for his demise.
COOPER: Sanjay, one of the things, I guess, that surprised me most in the security guard's testimony was that Dr. Murray didn't appear to know how to give CPR, even saying that that was the first time that he'd done it. Does that surprise you? I mean, a cardiologist who doesn't know how to administer CPR?
GUPTA: Yes, it's very surprising. And I think if you sort of put it together, he was doing it with one hand, they said. He was doing the CPR on the bed. The problem with doing that on the bed is that you're not getting the adequate chest compressions.
You know, Anderson, you think maybe he panicked and just simply was not thinking clearly. Or this other thing that's been introduced, I heard in the testimony, that he already knew Michael Jackson had passed on, he was dead. And so anything he was doing was kind of for show or, you know, he knew it was just futile -- futile to do anything. So I don't know which thing.
But a cardiologist not knowing how to do CPR, it just doesn't make sense. It fails the test of common sense.
COOPER: Mark, how long do you see the prosecution's side of this going for?
GERAGOS: Well, so far they're actually -- it may not seem like it, but they're actually moving at a pretty brisk pace. I wouldn't be surprised if they're able to wrap this thing up, depending on cross- examination, within three weeks. And then it really is going to be a matter of how long is the defense case? Do they put on Dr. Wecht, and how long was Dr. Wecht on direct? And then what happens to Dr. Wecht on cross?
I really think that this case will turn on the defense's putting up Dr. Wecht. Because they've invested so much in that opening statement as to what Dr. Wecht is going to say. Dr. Wecht is the only person I think that can get around the elephant in the room, which is can you give or administer Propofol in a home setting at a standard that is kind of, according to reasonable medical standards. Or maybe for the doctor. But that, I think, is going to be the biggest hurdle the defense has to get over.
COOPER: And Sanjay, from every doctor we've heard from, that seems to be a no, I mean, the idea that that -- that Propofol would be administered in a home setting, it just stuns people.
GUPTA: It does. And I think Dr. Wecht is someone well known for his work with Propofol. I think he would be really hard-pressed to say it was OK to do this in a home setting. Let alone the home setting, but that he didn't have monitoring equipment that was adequate, did not resuscitation equipment that was adequate, that a patient that was not monitored. Even if you allowed the home setting, which I don't think he will, those other three things make -- make it, I just think, unacceptable by any medical standard.
COOPER: Sanjay and Mark Geragos, thanks.
Up next, the U.S. ambassador to Syria attacked by an angry mob. New details on that ahead.
Plus, an interesting letter coming to light. You're going to see which celebrity inspired a world leader to make a plea for the release of the American hikers held in Iran.
And unpaid interns for the hit movie "Black Swan" suing because they weren't paid? That lands them on "The RidicuList" tonight.
SESAY: Anderson's back with more in a minute. First, the "360 Bulletin."
America's Ambassador to Syria is safe tonight after being attacked by an armed pro-government mob. Ambassador Robert Ford was in an embassy van. The van was seriously damaged, but he wasn't hurt.
It seems actor Sean Penn inspired Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to write the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, asking him to release the detained American hikers. Shane Bauer and Joshua Fattal went free last week after nearly 800 days in captivity. Chavez said he considers Penn a friend, and after they spoke, decided to reach out to the Iranian president.
And Cooper, meet Cooper. Cooper the dog discovered in Brandon, Florida, identified with the help of a microchip. He'll be heading back home all the way to Sacramento, California. That's about 3,000 miles. Cooper vanished two years ago, leaving two broken-hearted kids behind. Well, on Monday, doggone it, they'll get their wish. Cooper is flying home -- Anderson.
COOPER: This upcoming Monday marks the launch of a new show here on CNN we're very excited about, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT." I spoke to Erin earlier tonight and got a sneak peek at what she has in store.
COOPER: You actually started your career at Goldman Sachs?
ERIN BURNETT, HOST, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": I know. I did.
COOPER: What were you thinking?
BURNETT: What are you trying to do, kill me here?
COOPER: No, it's interesting. Why is that -- that's what you were interested in initially?
BURNETT: Well, no. You know what's funny? When I graduated from college, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I thought about going to law school, which I guess a lot of people do. I thought about the foreign service. And they said, you know what? Go work in investment banking, because if you don't know what you want to do, you learn a lot of things. You learn a lot about business and economics and you can do anything.
BURNETT: So, it sort of was a springboard. And I did it, and it was true. I learned a lot, loved it.
COOPER: How long were you there?
BURNETT: I was there for just under two years.
COOPER: OK. And did you hate it? Or you...
BURNETT: You know, it was all-nighters, but it was very collegial. Because it's a lot of other people who are right out of college who want to stay up all night and work on putting books together and then lugging them to meetings.
COOPER: Did you get one of those huge golden parachutes when you left?
BURNETT: It was huge. For the 22-year-old setting, it was huge.
COOPER: So huge you got to enter cable news. So -- OK, so the new show starts on Monday?
BURNETT: Show starts on Monday.
COOPER: Seven o'clock.
What -- I always hate asking people what their show is going to be like, because I hate being asked that question. But what the show's going to be like?
BURNETT: Anderson and I were out talking about this before. OK. Well, here's what I can say. "OUTFRONT" is really a mission statement. We really want to be out front, do original reporting, go out in the field. COOPER: You're going to do a lot of stuff in the field?
BURNETT: As much as we can. And so I think that's really what's going to define it. And there's going to be stories we really care about. Some of those stories include the economy, China, the Middle East, and women's issues, too.
COOPER: Cool. And your first guest, do you know?
BURNETT: I told you I was nervous to say this, but...
COOPER: Is it going to be like a single topic -- I mean, are you going to have a guest for the hour, or are you doing -- do you know -- do you have a sense of how the show is actually going to be...
BURNETT: It's going to depend -- it's going to depend on the person. So, we can what I call accordion style, Anderson, like you do. It can be shorter; it can be longer. And our first guest is actually going to be the secretary of defense, Leon Panetta.
BURNETT: Which I'm very excited about. We spent some time this summer traveling, getting ready for the show. We went to Pakistan. And so perfect person for our first guest.
COOPER: You can catch Erin's new show, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT," beginning Monday night at 7 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
Coming up, the interns who are suing because their unpaid internship didn't pay. "The RidicuList" is next.
COOPER: Time now for "The RidicuList." And tonight, we're adding the unpaid interns for the movie "Black Swan," who are suing the studio because they didn't get paid.
The "New York Times" reports two interns who worked on the movie have filed a lawsuit, saying they had to do menial work that wasn't very educational, and now they want back pay. One of the interns says he made coffee, got lunch, stuff like that.
The other one worked as an accounting intern. He's a 42-year-old MBA who wanted to break into the movie business. And he says, quote, "When I started looking for opportunities in the industry, I saw that most people accept an ugly tradeoff. If you want to get your foot in the door on a studio picture, you have to suck it up and do an unpaid internship."
Look, I don't want to get into some big debate about labor rules. Maybe they have a point. Would it be great if all unpaid internships paid really well? Sure. It would also be great if my dog made breakfast for me every morning. But I'm not going to file lawsuit over it.
When it comes to internships, it seems to me there are a few simple dos and don'ts. Do try to learn as much as you can. Do try to make contacts and then maybe don't sue those contacts.
But look, whatever. If you want to make it in the movie business, let's look to the movies themselves for guidance. Take the intern experience depicted in "The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou," which started out pretty much like a typical unpaid internship until the boat the interns were working on got attacked by pirates. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL MURRAY, ACTOR: Hey, intern, hand me a Capari, will you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the rocks?
MURRAY: Have him make me a latte.
I need to speak to the man in charge, fellows. Don't point that gun at him. He's an unpaid intern.
No, I can't give you full credit, but I'm not going to flunk you either. You're all getting incompletes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: See, now that's a bad internship. They wish they could be getting coffee for Natalie Portman.
I think the intern experience is what you make of it, young people or 42-year-old people, as the case may be. Just look what at we can learn from the intern over at "Parks and Recreation."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you know that interns do more slacking before 11 a.m. than most people do all day?
AUBREY PLAZA, ACTRESS: You want me to dial a number and then read another number out loud?
AMY POEHLER, ACTRESS: Can you handle this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As an intern, you can be all that you can be if you feel like it. Develop real-life job skills.
JIM O'HEIR, ACTOR: April, can you help me out?
PLAZA: Go away, Jerry.
AZIZ ANSARI, ACTOR: If you had to choose between these two ties...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Become a problem-solver.
O'HEIR: There's no paper in the printer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: See? And she even got promoted. I believe she's Ron Swanson's assistant now.
So interns, thank you for all you do. And if you're not happy where you are, you an always apply for the internship program on "The RidicuList." You won't even have to get coffee, because I don't like coffee.
That's it for 360. Thanks for watching. JOHN KING USA starts now. See you tomorrow.