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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Special Report: Ungodly Discipline
Aired August 03, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight we bring you a special record ungodly discipline.
In the hour ahead you're going to meet parents, school and church leaders across the America accused of hitting kids in the name of God. Our investigation began when we met some parents who believe that the bible commands them to spank their children, even very young children, toddlers. Spank them so hard that it hurts, that they cause physical pain. They call it spiritual spanking.
Lydia Schatz was just 7 years old when she was beaten to death in the name of God. She allegedly mispronounced a word during a home schooling session. That was her so-called sin.
Lydia's parents pleaded guilty and were sent to a California prison. They claim they were following the teachings of a man named Michael Pearl, who is spreading his Gospel through a book he wrote with his wife. It is called "to Train up a Child," reportedly more than a million copies have been sold. The Pearls wrote it as a blueprint for raising children the way the bible demands. But they say they're not to blame for what the Schatz did to 7-year-old Lydia.
They explained it to our Gary Tuchman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL PEARL, AUTHOR, TO TRAIN UP A CHILD: I don't use the word hitting.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What is the word is this.
MICHAEL PEARL: Spanking.
TUCHMAN: And there's a difference?
MICHAEL PEARL: Absolutely. A hand is hitting. A little switch is spanking. A wooden spoon or spatula -- rubber spatula is spanking.
TUCHMAN: So, what I'm seeing here is why not just use your hand instead of all these materials?
MICHAEL PEARL: Let me show you something. Does that hurt? Doesn't feel good, but look what it's doing to your whole body. Here's your hand on somebody, that's a karate chop. TUCHMAN: You say when you use this material, that it can't cause a permanent --
DEBBIE PEARL, CO-AUTHOR, TO TRAIN UP A CHILD: You stained the skin.
MICHAEL PEARL: My children never had marks left on them.
TUCHMAN: They're not shy about using props and humor.
MICHAEL PEARL: I'm going to spank the sinning man --
TUCHMAN: To show how they believe God wants parents to spank.
MICHAEL PEARL: Rubbing the spaghetti all over your head, you shouldn't have done that at 7 years of age. OK?
TUCHMAN: That hurts. And I'm 50. I mean -- I mean, I --
MICHAEL PEARL: Are there any marks on you?
TUCHMAN: But you would hit a 5-year-old like that?
MICHAEL PEARL: Yes, sure.
TUCHMAN: The Pearls said you could never be too young for some physical pain. For example when a baby bites during breast-feeding.
DEBBIE PEARL: I would very gently pull their hair, enough to make them let go.
TUCHMAN: The spankings with various objects, say the Pearls, are actually done out of love.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Spanking is done out of love, they say. And we discovered spare the rod, spoil a child is a message that many people still embrace. Now, you're going to hear from some of them tonight. And from people who disagree with them. People like James Mason, a former student at a religious boarding school, Pinehaven Christian Ranch in Montana who says he was physically disciplined by a house parent after being accused of misbehaving.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: MASON, FORMER PINEHAVEN STUDENT: At that point he lifted me up by my neck against the door, and held me up until I pretty much went limp. And I was subdued, and I was contained. And I was no longer a threat, as much as a 14-year- old can be to a former army full grown man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It turned out that accused house parent at that school still works there. Gary Tuchman talked with him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: Some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them.
NED KENT, PINEHAVEN HOUSE PARENT: That's totally false.
TUCHMAN: What is it that you did to them?
KENT: Used pressure points to restrain them.
TUCHMAN: What does that mean?
KENT: You have places on your body where nerve endings --
TUCHMAN: Show me, like where on my body would you --?
KENT: Right there.
TUCHMAN: Show me.
KENT: Right there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, you're going to hear more from the house parent and his accusers in the hour ahead. Gary has been investigating another religious school facing allegations of abuse. What he found is pretty shocking. Young kids, students who said they were forced to panhandle in subways and streets. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who are you?
TUCHMAN: My name is Gary Tuchman with CNN. And we want to know why you have children out here begging for money here at this subway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not answering any questions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Very young children. There's more on that. Gary's also been looking into allegations of abuse at a fundamentalist fair haven school in Indiana. Several students are speaking out claiming they faced corporal punishment at the hands of the pastor and school officials. Here's one of the former students who said he was in the 7th grade when he said he had an encounter with an administrator.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMIAH SOUZA, FORMER FAIRHAVEN BAPTIST ACADEMY STUDENT: He spanked me and the paddle split down the middle. So, if he started back over holding the paddle together, so whenever he would hit me, it would pinch the skin on my bottom, and bruised and bleed.
(END VIDE CLIP)
COOPER: Well, there are other former Fairhaven students alleging abuse. You are going to hear from then coming up and see how the influential pastor responds to the accusations.
We begin though in Montana. At the school also facing accusations of abuse in the name of God.
Here's Gary report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Here in the part of big sky country, disturbing allegations are just over the horizon, in the town of St. Ignatius, Montana. Where the religious boarding school, Pinehaven Christian children's ranch is located. It's been run for nearly four decades by this 82-year-old preacher.
Are these troubled kids, or kids with troubled parents? Who is coming here?
BOB LARSSON, OWNER, PINEHAVEN CHRISTIAN CHILDREN'S RANCH: All of the above and more.
TUCHMAN: And Bob Larsson is blunt, any kid who comes here is expected to behave and praise the Lord.
What do you try to teach these children first of all, about Christianity?
LARSSON: That God loves them. And God is the answer of everything. He's the ruler of the universe. He made man, he made the world, he made the rules.
TUCHMAN: But some say there's more to Pinehaven than just Christian teachings. They say there's violence.
Denise and Dave Bingham, being a more house parents at Pinehaven for five years since until 2010, in charge of taking care of children who lived in one of the cabin style homes on the ranch.
DENIS BINGHAM, FORMER PINEHAVEN HOUSEPARENT: Children are hurt at Pinehaven. When kids won't obey, physical pain is used to get them to comply, whether it is pressure points, sometimes they were drag down a hill, sometimes they were choked. But it was used to get them to comply. I think God weeps when you think about the wrong that's been done. Of course he does.
TUCHMAN: The owner of Pinehaven said these allegations are not true.
LARSSON: I'm not saying they lied. I think this is their perception of what they say happened as they look back on it. And I can't answer their perception. TUCHMAN: James mason was a child at Pinehaven, entering at age 13, staying for six years.
MASON: First time I was choked was in April of 1995. It was in my bedroom.
TUCHMAN: Mason was then 14 years old when he said he was physically disciplined by one of the house parents after being accused of misbehaving.
MASON: And at that point he lifted me up by my neck against the door, and held me up until I pretty much went limp. And I was subdued, and I was contained, and I was no longer a threat, as much as a 14-year-old can be to a former army full grown man.
TUCHMAN: Melissa Stasiuk was also a child at Pinehaven, and dealt with a very same house parent.
MELISSA STASIUK, FORMER PINEHAVEN STUDENT: He picked me up by the -- under my neck, just like at my trachea. And he's about 6'2". And I'm about 5-foot nothing, I'm maybe 4'10". And he picked me up by my throat and slammed me down on the kitchen table.
TUCHMAN: The house parent they are talking about is named Ned Kent, who still works at Pinehaven.
Some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them.
KENT: That's totally false.
TUCHMAN: What is it that you did to them?
KENT: Used pressure points to restrain them.
TUCHMAN: What does that mean?
KENT: You have places on your body where nerve ends are real close --
TUCHMAN: Show me. Where on my body.
KENT: Like right there. Right there.
TUCHMAN: So you would do it with two hands on one hand?
KENT: Usually just one.
TUCHMAN: So, you would put your hands on pressure points? What was the purpose of that?
KENT: To stop them from flailing or to stop them from hitting somebody, or to stop them from whatever behavior they happened to be doing at the time.
TUCHMAN: Could that not be interpreted as choking, an adult putting pressure point on a child?
KENT: I suppose it could be.
TUCHMAN: Do you still do that?
KENT: No. We've been told we cannot do that. So we don't do that anymore.
TUCHMAN: Bob Larsson said he was the one that told Bob Kent no more pressure points, but that could be misconstrued. But former student, Lauren McClary said she experienced other types of violence too with the different house parent.
LAUREN MCCLARY, FORMER PINEHAVEN STUDENT: I had my hair in a ponytail and he grabbed me by the ponytail and he dragged me up the stairs.
TUCHMAN: Bob Larsson disputes that. He introduced us to some former students who say the accusations of abuse are not true.
TROY BAKER, FORMER PINEHAVEN STUDENT: No, there was tough love. But there was nothing cruel or unusual. I mean, tough love means separating people from drugs and alcohol and bad influences that brought them to Pinehaven in the first place.
CURTIS SWANSON, FORMER PINEHAVEN STUDENT: Like if I wouldn't have gone there, I would have had a criminal record. I would have been into a bunch of something I shouldn't have. And it really got me like on track. It gave me a better place to be and like, something like that. So, I'm really thankful for it. It literally saved my life.
TUCHMAN: But the accusations of abuse are detailed and numerous. To Bob Larsson, there's a reason. Why do you think people are saying such bad things?
LARSSON: Ultimately, we only have one enemy who wants to defeat the good in the world and that is s Satan. And I really believe that he is a real personality and he works to try to stop the works of God and cause the evil that keeps going on that will happen. I think that he influences people. The bible says he's the father of lies, and people sometimes believe his lies.
TUCHMAN: So you think that people are saying bad things because they're fluxed by Satan?
LARSSON: That is what's happening, yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, on the next part two of Gary's investigation at Pinehaven, just who are the authorities responsible for checking out the abuse allegations? Who's making sure the teachers and other school officials are qualified? You may be surprised what Gary found out.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: More on the Special Report Ungodly discipline.
Let's go back to Montana, that small religious school facing some very disturbing accusations. Now, the school is accused of operating for decades beyond the region's state authorities. It's all perfectly legal, but the question is, is the lack of oversight safe for the students. We're going to let you decide.
Here's part two of Gary Tuchman's investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Bob Larsson is a Christian preacher and founder of the Pinehaven Christian Children's Ranch in northwestern Montana.
LARSSON: I was raised that way. I don't know if you were. Clean up your plate, don't waste anything.
TUCHMAN: There are about 40 children and teenagers at the ranch right now. Some have troubled pasts, others have troubled families.
LARSSON: And they know when they come, they sign a form of acceptance for coming that says I understand that this is a Christian program. I do believe in God. I believe Jesus is the son of God. And the bible is the word of God. And I have no objection to being taught along those lines.
TUCHMAN: But many former students have objections to what they recall was physical abuse at the ranch.
MASON: Choking was to be expected at some points. The nerves under my chin, when I went to the Marine Corps, were dead.
TUCHMAN: Former student Melissa Stasiuk said one of Bob Larsson's employees --
STASIUK: Picked me up under this section of my throat here, and lifted me up and slammed me down on the kitchen table, and basically held me down and told me that I was a drug addict and I was never going to amount to anything.
TUCHMAN: Some former employees at the ranch say they witnessed such abuse.
LYNETTE MCCLENAHAN, FORMER PINEHAVEN HOUSE PARENT: I know that it caused extreme pain, because when I saw the kids were wrenching and screaming because of the pain of what had happened.
TUCHMAN: Bob Larsson says Satan is behind the more than one dozen former students or teachers we talked to who allege abuse.
LARSSON: They persecuted Christ and he was perfect. I know I'm not perfect. And bible said you can expect this to happen.
TUCHMAN: One of them an accused of physical abuse is longtime Pinehaven employee and house parent Ned Kent.
Some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them.
KENT: That's totally false.
TUCHMAN: What is it that you did to them?
KENT: Used pressure points to restrain them.
TUCHMAN: What does that mean?
KENT: You have places on your body where nerve endings are real close --
TUCHMAN: Show me. Where on my body.
KENT: Like right there.
TUCHMAN: Show me.
KENT: Right there.
TUCHMAN: Ned Kent claims he does not do it anymore.
But who are the authorities responsible for checking out such allegations. Let's tell you a little bit more about Pinehaven Christian children's ranch. It is unregulated, unlicensed, unaccredited, its teachers are uncertified by the state of Montana. The state is required to oversee public and private schools, but not religious schools. So, who oversees Pinehaven? Pinehaven oversees Pinehaven.
Who is responsible to make sure that the teachers are good, your counselors are good, and your kids behave?
LARSSON: I am.
TUCHMAN: Larsson says he has the teachers licensed out of state, but not in Montana, which is one of many states where government has no oversight of religious schools. The Montana legislature considered a bill to require religious school oversight. But this former state legislator fought the attempt to regulate Pinehaven.
JEANNE WINDHAM, FORMER MONTANA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: The truth is, I did not know the breadth and depth of what was going on at Pinehaven.
TUCHMAN: But now, former representative Jeanne Windham is trying to get the legislature to reverse that vote because she believes Pinehaven has abused children.
WINDHAM: That doesn't sound very Christian to me. TUCHMAN: Bob Larsson adequately acknowledges to stomach abuse of the students, but he does acknowledge unpleasant problems in the past.
A former Pinehaven employee was accused of raping two underage students. He pled guilty and went to prison. Could trained and licensed staff have spotted clues in that teacher's behavior? Could they have helped to prevent other horrifying situations such as this one?
James Mason said he was sodomized by another student.
MASON: I was raped. I never told anybody that. He threatened me with pliers to my throat and to my testicles if I would ever tell anybody.
TUCHMAN: This is former student Bryan Dare, who says he was also raped by a Pinehaven student.
BRYAN DARE, FORMER PINEHAVEN STUDENT: I started cutting myself after that. I stole some wire from the shop we were working in, and would cut my inner thighs. Because that was the only place they wouldn't see it. I would just cut and cut and cut. Because it was the only -- pain, physical pain felt better than the mental pain that I was going through.
TUCHMAN: Two years ago, a sheriff's office detective in Lake County, Montana, investigated abuse allegations against Pinehaven. No charges were filed. But the case files indicate only one alleged victim was interviewed. We talked to the detective's boss, Sheriff Jay Doyle, who was elected sheriff after the case was closed.
JAY DOYLE, SHERIFF, LAKE COUNTY, MONTANA: It can be reopened. There are alleged victims out there that may or may not have come forward, and if they wish to come forward, and report a crime, we will look into it.
TUCHMAN: What would be wrong if the state of Montana looked over the school?
LARSSON: Because it is an arm of the church, it would be unconstitutional.
TUCHMAN: But you see it would make some people breathe easier, perhaps some parents knowing that --
LARSSON: So, send your kids somewhere else. They don't have to send them here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, we will have more in part three of Gary's investigation, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. Our Special Report Ungodly discipline continues with more in the small boarding school in northwestern Montana.
Now, we told you of allegations of abuse at the school which is exempt from state oversight. In part three of his report, Gary Tuchman exposes to what amounts to a pipeline between five counties in Illinois and Montana's Pinehaven Christian Children's Ranch.
Dozens of kids it turns out from Illinois have ended up at Pinehaven, steered there all by the same truant officer. It happened to a teen named Cassie against her mother's wishes. Now her mom wants to pull her out of Pinehaven but can't.
Here's Gary's report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN: Paula Bowen of Illinois is the mother of seven children. What is the name of your youngest daughter?
PAULA BOWEN, DAUGHTER LIVING AT PINEHAVEN: Cassie Castill.
TUCHMAN: How old is Cassie?
BOWEN: She just turned 16.
TUCHMAN: She said her daughter was raped by a relative. And that Cassie had tried to kill herself.
BOWEN: She took a bottle full of pills. And she was placed into Harsha. I assigned in Harsha.
TUCHMAN: Harsha is?
BOWEN: A behavioral center in Indiana.
TUCHMAN: -- which isn't fare from Paula Bowen's only Illinois home. But she said one day a truant officer from her town made a trip to that behavioral center to visits Cassie and recommended she transfer to a very different place.
BOWEN: Cassie called me, she was crying, she said, mommy, I just made a mistake.
TUCHMAN: What's her mistake?
BOWEN: I asked her what happened, and she says, I just signed the papers to go to Pinehaven.
TUCHMAN: Paula Bowen said without her permission, her daughter was then whisked away. More than 1,800 miles to rural Montana, to the Pinehaven children's Christian ranch, and that's where we met her. What's your name?
CASSIE CASTILL, PINEHAVEN STUDENT: Cassie.
TUCHMAN: Where you from, Cassie?
CASTILL: Illinois.
TUCHMAN: Bob Larsson is a preacher and founder of Pinehaven.
LARSSON: I say the two biggest reasons that kids come are broken homes, and they didn't have the normal home background and training with some dad and a mom, and failing adoptions.
TUCHMAN: Paula Bowen admits she's had serious problems with her life, including imprisonment. But says she doesn't want her daughter at Pinehaven because of allegations from former employees at the ranch, like Denise and Dave Bingham, that children were choked and hit in the name of God.
BINGHAM: The kids were being abused at Pinehaven. They were. There is no doubt about it.
TUCHMAN: Allegations backed by former students who said they were choked and hit, not by Bob Larsson, but people who worked for Bob Larsson. Show me what would they do to you?
MASON: Push up, grab the neck up against the wall, lift you off your feet.
TUCHMAN: All looked normal with the children during our visit to Pinehaven. But if Paula Bowen was worried by what she heard, why not pull Cassie out? Because she can't.
An Illinois judge approved the truant officer's recommendation and signed a court order declaring it is in the best interests of the minor to remove the minor from the custody of the parent, guardian or custodian.
You said to these people, if you're sending my daughter away, please send her close to me. Don't send her to the state of Montana, which is a good way across the country.
BOWEN: Right.
TUCHMAN: And they said?
BOWEN: She signed the papers.
TUCHMAN: Did you say she's a 15-year-old child?
BOWEN: Yes. It's a binding contract. They held her to it.
TUCHMAN: This is the truant officer.
CHARLIE DUKE, CHIEF TRUANT OFFICER: My job is to get kids that are missing school back in school. And then intervene with court services, court related services.
TUCHMAN: It was Charlie duke's idea for Cassie to go to Pinehaven. Why? He believes in the ranch's religious philosophy. He also considers the founder, Bob Larsson, a surrogate father.
Nothing in the state of Illinois, nothing in the Midwest, nothing in the entire region in the country comes close to Pinehaven.
DUKE: That is correct.
TUCHMAN: This five-county area is very quiet, low profile. But it has the most unusual export, children. You see, Cassie is one of at least 29 children who over the years have been sent from this region to Montana's Pinehaven Christian Children's Ranch. This area is a pipeline to Pinehaven.
Charlie Duke gets the approval of prosecutors and judges to make it happen to a facility with abuse allegations and employees without any certification or licensing from the state of Montana.
DUKE: I personally know teachers that are there that are certified teachers from the state of Illinois.
TUCHMAN: But they're in Montana. The point is these kids are troubled and they need counseling. There is no one trained to counsel them. Does that bother you?
DUKE: I believe they get the counseling they need. When they have a nuclear family structure --
TUCHMAN: I understand they have that structure, but I'm asking you, as a public servant here in Illinois, you operate by rules and regulations of the state, do you think they should have licensed counselors at Pinehaven?
DUKE: I really feel like you're trying to trap me into saying something --
TUCHMAN: You can say yes or no.
DUKE: I know. I'm not comfortable even talking about it.
TUCHMAN: You can say no or you don't know.
DUKE: I don't know.
TUCHMAN: Charlie Duke says he doesn't believe the abuse allegations. But we showed him a videotape of one of the current ranch employees, Ned Kent, telling us this.
Some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them.
KENT: That's totally false.
TUCHMAN: What is it that you did to them?
KENT: Used pressure points to restrain them.
TUCHMAN: What does that mean?
Y KENT: So, have places on your body where nerve endings are real close -- TUCHMAN: Show me, where on my body.
KENT: Right there.
TUCHMAN: Show me.
KENT: Right there.
TUCHMAN: Ned Kent and Bob Larsson both say the so-called pressure points are no longer done. But Charlie Duke said he would like to talk to Larsson about this.
DUKE: I would like to have the assurance that that was something of the past, and not something that they condone, or would use in the future.
TUCHMAN: The truant officer said despite what Cassie mother has told us, she approved her daughter going to Pinehaven. But when I asked if he went on his own to Indiana to have the child sign a form to go there, he responded --
DUKE: I'm saying, I cannot talk about it. It's a juvenile hearing.
TUCHMAN: And for the same reason the judges and prosecutors won't talk to us at all.
So, Cassie remains in Montana. There are 40 children at Pinehaven. She is one of eight from the same part of Illinois. And despite the allegations, Charlie Duke says that if Illinois child needs Pinehaven, he will keep on recommending it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my opinion it is the finest children's home that I've ever visited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Gary, what did the state of Illinois and child welfare experts have to say about all this?
TUCHMAN: Well, first of all, Anderson, child welfare experts say it's wildly unusual for a child to be sent so far away from a parent. These people live in Southern Illinois. They're close to Indianapolis. They're close to St. Louis. They're close to Chicago, which has lots of facilities for children.
They say it's very rare for a child to be sent that far away. But I will tell you that the state of Illinois say it can't do anything about it. We talked to the Attorney General's Office. The Attorney General's Office said it's up to the local district attorneys. They say they just can't do anything.
COOPER: You report on Cassie's story a few months ago. Since we originally aired the story, what's happened to her?
TUCHMAN: Yes, a lot of unusual things. Right after our story aired, Anderson, Paula, Cassie's mother, said she was cut off from communicating with her daughter.
She says when she called her in Montana, either they hung up the phone or they said she couldn't come to the phone. She said she didn't talk to her daughter for months.
Then the judge in her hometown of Illinois made the decision there has to be a court hearing in Illinois. He will have Cassie flown to Illinois and he will then decide if Cassie should stay with her mother.
So the court hearing was held. At the court hearing, Bob Larsson, the head of the Christian school, the truant officer testified. The judge listened to them. Paula tells us and she had to tell us this information because what happens in juvenile court is not public information.
She said she barely said anything, after the judge heard from the director of the facility, he never asked any questions about alleged physical abuse and he sent Cassie back to Montana. So Cassie again is in Montana after being home in Illinois for a few days for that court hearing.
COOPER: Interesting, Gary, appreciate the reporting. Thanks. Gary has more on another school with some pretty stunning video. A little boy begging for money in subway stations, because it's part of the school curriculum.
There are other allegations against the father and son who run the school, allegations of mistreating kids, falsifying records, bilking the government of tax dollars. Gary tracked them down looking for answers. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back to our special "Ungodly Discipline." All this hour, you've seen how Gary Tuchman is investigating religious schools facing allegations of abuse.
But in this next report, there's another layer for the story. In addition, allegations of physical abuse, there's evidence that this school has been fleecing taxpayers at the same time.
And if that weren't bad enough, its students are also allegedly being forced to panhandle. Here's Gary's report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Walk down the sidewalk and turn the corner at this BART station, one of the Bay Area subway stations, and you'll see him.
A little boy, 6 years old or 7 years old at most, panhandling, begging for money, but it's not for him or his family. It's for his school. In fact this begging is, in a way, part of the curriculum at the St. Andrew Missionary Baptist Church School in Oakland, California. This child, whose identity we're protecting, looks like a modern day version of "Oliver Twist." Standing nearby, an adult companion who's not happy we're there.
(on camera): Can you just tell me your name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who are you?
TUCHMAN: My name's Gary Tuchman with CNN. We want to know why you have children out here begging for money at this subway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not answering any questions.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): But we found out who the man is. He's Reverend Robert Lacy Jr. He and his father are the people who run St. Andrews.
The school whose children are regularly spotted hustling for money at subway stations. So why are they doing it? Where is the money going?
REVEREND ROBERT LACY JR., ST. ANDREWS MISSIONARY BAPTIST CHURCH: If you have any questions, you can give them to us in writing.
TUCHMAN (on camera): OK, but why can't you answer that question now, sir? I think children should be home during their school work during the year not begging commuters for money. This poor little boy should be doing homework.
(voice-over): Yolanda Bailey had three children at St. Andrews and she pulled them out.
YOLANDA BAILEY, MOTHER: To me, it's just like a big slave camp.
TUCHMAN: Bailey said she was told her kids were doing fundraising. She says no one told her they were begging.
LA ASIA HOLT, FORMER ST. ANDREW STUDENT: Me and my little brother went with Pastor Lacy. He told us if we didn't make $50, we would stay there until we did.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Catherine Joiner says she pulled her son, Charlos, out of the school where she paid $3,000 a year in tuition. Charlos says he was required to panhandle for hours nearly every evening.
(on camera): You got hungry. You got thirsty. They didn't bring food or water with them?
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I couldn't even sit. I couldn't sit down.
TUCHMAN: But those are not the only unseemly allegations against the father and son ministers. Yolanda Bailey said her older child was struck by the Reverend Lacy Jr.
BAILEY: He hit my son on the top of the head with a book. TUCHMAN: Her younger son says he was hit several times.
(on camera): And what did he hit you with?
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Belt and spoons.
TUCHMAN: A belt and spoons?
(voice-over): Meanwhile, Charlos says he was locked in a second floor classroom because he had talked in class and wasn't allowed to use the bathroom. So he says he climbed out on this second story window ledge to escape.
CHARLOS STEWART JR., FORMER ST. ANDREW STUDENT: I didn't want to do it so I tried to come in and I slipped on the ledge, and I fell, and I broke my foot in five places.
TUCHMAN: This is a picture shortly after Charlos went to the hospital and these are the medical records. Charlos' mother says the school denied he fell out of the window.
CATHERINE JOINER, MOTHER: I just thank God that he landed on his feet. He could have -- there's no doubt he would have been dead, had he fallen head first.
TUCHMAN: And there's more to say about the school. St. Andrews has declared it has 195 students. The more students, the more federal taxpayer money received.
The school has cashed in more than $220,000 taxpayer dollars over the last five years. Will Evans is a reporter with California Watch, a non-profit media organization that has been investigating the school.
(on camera): They say in official filings they have 195 students. Your finding is how many students go to that school?
WILL EVANS, "CALIFORNIA WATCH": They definitely -- under 30 at any given time and sometimes much fewer as few as 10.
TUCHMAN: Is there anyone who carefully looks at the form schools fill out saying the number of students they have?
EVANS: No.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The Oakland Unified School District is the entity doling out the money and admits it has blindly trusted schools like St. Andrews. Noel Gallo has been on the board for 19 years.
NOEL GALLO, OAKLAND UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT: It's very difficult for me to stand here and make excuses because it happened.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Is there a chance that St. Andrews will receive more taxpayer money through you.
GALLO: Absolutely not. TUCHMAN: Zero?
GALLO: Zero funds.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Back at the BART station --
(on camera): So let them take the picture of the transaction taking place. You have no right to put that up there. This is a public place. Put that down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not public.
TUCHMAN: Sir, this is a public place. If people are giving money to your children, we're allowed to film it.
Reverend Lacy told me at the subway station if I e-mailed him questions, he'd provide me with answers. So I did, but he didn't. Which means the next stop was coming to the church.
I knocked on the locked door. I know there are people inside. But no one wanted to say hello.
(voice-over): But just as we were about to leave, we ran into Reverend Lacy on the street.
(on camera): Regarding these allegations about children in the subway station, about the abuse allegations, about you taking too much taxpayer money, what's your response to all that?
LACY: We're honest people. We're law abiding citizens. We have committed ourselves to do God's service here in this community. And that's what we've been doing it and that's all we have to comment at this time.
TUCHMAN: But no specific answers to those allegations?
LACY: No, no, no answers to that. We're praying people. If you don't mind, we'd like to say a prayer with you here right now.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): And his prayers were the last words he said to us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Gary Tuchman joins me once again. Is this church, Gary, being investigated by authorities? Because they're certainly not giving any answers about why they're having these kids do this in the streets.
TUCHMAN: That's right. The state of California is investigating the tax allegations, the federal tax allegations, and the District Attorney's Office in Alameda County is investigating the abuse allegations.
And we should also tell you about BART, the rapid transit system. BART is now on the verge of making a decision to change how it handles soliciting and panhandling.
From now on it appears you will not be able to as an adult or child to solicit in BART stations after 7:00 p.m. or during school hours, which is key, because the allegations are here are these kids solicit, panhandle, beg into the night.
In addition, you will have to have an adult with you, you can't be a child by yourself, although in the case we covered, there was an adult there. It happened to be the adult who runs the school.
COOPER: It's a fascinating scene and how basically point blank he wouldn't answer any questions. Gary, appreciate the reporting.
Up next in this special report, allegations of child abuse at a fundamentalist Baptist school in Indiana. Some former students are saying they were hit and humiliated by staff members.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMUEL BAIN, FORMER STUDENT, FAIRHAVEN BAPTIS ACADEMY: He basically told me to bend over and said, pull down your pants. I kind of hesitated. To me it doesn't sound right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Much more of our "Ungodly Discipline" investigation ahead, but first, Susan Hendricks joins us with a "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Susan.
SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, more fierce fighting in Syria. This video posted on YouTube shows shelling at a refugee camp in Damascus. There is no end in sight to the attacks as the U.N. General Assembly voted overwhelmingly in support of a resolution condemning the violence.
Here in the U.S., a mix jobs report, employers added 163,000 jobs in July. That is the most since February, but the unemployment rate rose to 8.3 percent. That's because it is based on a survey of households, which showed fewer people had jobs.
The CDC is monitoring an increase in the number of new cases of a swine flu strain. The health agency reports 60 new cases in humans, in just the past three weeks. Get this, every patient says they have been in contact with a pig, most often at state or county fairs. Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Susan, thanks.
Our special investigation "Ungodly Discipline" continues in a moment. We're going to take you to a fundamentalist Baptist school in Indiana where several former students say endured corporal punishment that was way beyond anything thought in the bible. The pastor responds to the allegations next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back, more of our "Ungodly Discipline" investigation. This hour, we've been looking at allegations of child abuse in the name of religion.
Once again, here's Gary Tuchman with a report on a school in Indiana are facing accusations that are hard to comprehend.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Roger Voeigtlin is a powerful man, extremely influential and fundamentalist Baptist circles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe the bible is the word of God.
TUCHMAN: His Indiana church is called Fairhaven Baptist and on the well manicured grounds, there is also the Fairhaven Baptist Academy for children and Fairhaven College. Pastor Voeigtlin has led thousands of children and their families for four decades.
(on camera): You've said children are born depraved. They're born liars. They have to be trained to be good. Do you still believe that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. The bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The bible also says, he who spareth the rod, hateth his son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My philosophy is three swats. It should sting, but not hurt.
TUCHMAN: It's not considered an unusual philosophy among some in the fundamentalist Baptist community and corporal punishment does remain legal in many of the nation's schools.
But these former students are now speaking out. Saying what they endured was beyond, way beyond anything taught in the bible.
(on camera): How many of you have had suicidal thoughts? That's every one of you.
ALISON LAVERY, FORMER FAIRHAVEN BAPTIST ACADEMY STUDENT: We constantly lived in fear of looking the wrong way, doing the wrong thing.
DAVID GONZALEZ, FORMER FAIRHAVEN BAPTIST ACADEMY STUDENT: We were brainwashed, our parents were brainwashed. And you followed what Roger Voeigtlin says.
TUCHMAN: These former students say Pastor Voegtlin did some of the hitting, but most of it was done by his staff. Alison Lavery was in grade school when she says the principal came into her class to paddle her. LAVERY: He would call you to the front. They would pull the chair out. You bend over, grab the chair, he told you look at that lunch pail and he would pull the paddle up.
He was so tall it practically touched the ceiling. He would swing it really hard and it's hard enough for you to move forward. He moved the whole chair forward.
TUCHMAN (on camera): This is in front of the whole class?
LAVERY: Yes.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Jeremiah Souza was in the 7th grade when he encountered the school administrator.
JEREMIAH SOUZA, FORMER FAIRHAVEN BAPTIST ACADEMY STUDENT: The paddle split down the middle. So he started back over holding the paddle together. So whenever he would hit me, it would pinch the skin on my bottom and bruised and bleeding.
TUCHMAN: Samuel Bain was also in grade school when he said he got it from a church maintenance man.
BAIN: He basically told me to bend over. He told me to pull down my pants. I hesitated, because it didn't sound right. Even to a kid, you know, we were taught not to question people.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Then he did what?
BAIN: He laid into me.
TUCHMAN: They say not only were they hit when they were here, but it was done with grit effort to humiliate them in front of the whole class, bent them over a chair. Is that still done today and do you think that's humiliation?
PASTOR ROGER VOEGTLIN, FAIRHAVEN BAPTIST CHURCH: Yes, it is still done today and I suppose it is humiliation. But again, humiliation is not the big thing.
TUCHMAN: What I'm saying to you is, God doesn't say anything about humiliation in the bible. He does talk about sparing the rod. That is mentioned in the bible.
VOEGTLIN: Yes.
TUCHMAN: So why the humiliation? Why is that necessary?
VOEGTLIN: Habit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a minister, a preacher, I speak to youth, teenagers.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Darcel McCoy is a proud Baptist who now lives in Alabama. He said during a student mission trip to Mexico 15 years ago, he was forced by a Fairhaven administrator to keep drinking liquids after he urinated in the shower.
DARCEL MCCOY, FORMER FAIRHAVEN BAPTIST ACADEMY STUDENT: My stomach is literally out to here. And I'm puking just over and over, just puking. One of them came up to me and said, you better not puke again.
I'm just puking everywhere, all over my clothes, all over people's stuff. They put one of the senior boys. They put his stuff at my feet.
And said if you puke again, this boy is going to beat the snot out of you. I'm trying hard not to puke. They made me do that until I peed on myself.
VOEGTLIN: I never heard that story. Darcel was a lot of trouble when he was in school. But I'm not saying he was totally lying about it because I don't know. I wasn't there.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Was this something you'll investigate now?
VOEGTLIN: Yes, I will.
TUCHMAN: That was a long time ago, but probably worth investigating.
VOEGTLIN: Yes, I will.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Jeremiah Souza said he was tormented by faculty members.
SOUZA: I was secretly taking piano lessons and they found out and pulled me in front of the youth group, called me a fag, queer.
TUCHMAN: And it got much worse. Souza said he was repeatedly raped by a fellow student. He told no one at the church until many years later.
SOUZA: I was raped for three years straight there and I was told it was my fault. I went and told the pastor. He asked me if I was tithing, giving money to the church at that time insinuating because I wasn't giving money, that I was violated.
VOEGTLIN: Plain lying. That did not happen. If it happened, I would be the first one to drag the person to the police station.
TUCHMAN: And then there's Lois Crosby. She started at Fairhaven more than three decades ago. She said the brutality was too much for her.
LOIS CROSBY, FORMER FAIRHAVEN BAPTIST ACADEMY STUDENT: I've actually overdosed twice. The second time I overdosed, even the doctors don't know how I'm alive.
TUCHMAN (on camera): All seven of your former students said that they either thought or tried to commit suicide. A, do you think they're either lying to me, and B, how does it make you feel? VOEGTLIN: It makes me feel bad but I don't think it has anything to do with us.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): But there are these two former students.
(on camera): Tell me your name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Frank.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Katherine.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Katherine and Frank, two of Pastor Voegtlin's children whom he and his wife adopted when they young.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven't spoken to him in 25 years. He won't speak to me.
TUCHMAN: Frank says his father once got mad when he didn't finish a 10-mile run.
FRANK VOEGTLIN, ADOPTED SON OF PASTOR VOEGTLIN: He stripped me down. He got his belt out, and he spanked me until he couldn't move his arm anymore. And I was black and blue from my lower back to the bottom of my legs. As a punishment, I had to wear a dress in day camp for the entire day to show everybody what a sissy I was.
TUCHMAN (on camera): You ran cross-country. You came in second place in the race and he said what?
CATHERINE VOEGTLIN SELTER, ADOPTED DAUGHTER OF PASTOR VOEGTLIN: He told me that I was never ever to lose a race, ever. And took me downstairs, lifted my skirt up and beat me with a belt.
VOEGTLIN: We did nothing, but to try and help frank and his sister. We hadn't planned to adopt anybody.
TUCHMAN (on camera): But you did. What I'm wondering is that true what they were saying.
VOEGTLIN: No. We spanked Frank. But as far as, you said sending him to school in a dress? No.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Pastor Voegtlin feels his children and these former Fairhaven children are malcontents who are embellishing. He said almost all Fairhaven students are happy. But these former students said Pastor Voegtlin leads a church that has ruined many lives.
GONZALEZ: I don't know what love is. I don't know how to love somebody.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Before we left, people who work at the church gave us a souvenir. A souvenir they say they're proud to hand out to all visitors. It's one of the paddles they use to strike the children. It comes complete with words from the bible. It says Fairhaven paddle, and then this verse from the book of proverbs, he that loveth his son chastenneth his times.
Did you ever have any doubt in your mind that you're not faithfully and accurately following the spirit of God's word in the bible?
VOEGTLIN: No.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): At Fairhaven, the traditions will continue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Gary, has anything changed at Fairhaven since you originally reported the story?
TUCHMAN: Well, since our story aired, Anderson, for the next eight or nine weeks, weekly protests were held outside the church in Indiana, people from inside the community and outside the community.
Sometimes as many as 200, 300 people asking for changes inside the church, but it doesn't appear those changes have come. While this was all taking place, the protest, there was a letter writing campaign, I got 100 letters from members of the congregation.
Many of the letters with the same exact phrases, some people saying there is no paddling at all that takes place and others say the paddling is fine. That's what God wants.
Really interesting though, one of the pastors of the church accused of a lot of the paddling, he writes a newsletter and he writes a column in his newsletter criticizing our reporting, and also criticized reporting that we've done on this show, the continuing reporting on bullying. He says, quote, "what they call bullying is a part of growing up."
COOPER: Gary, we'll continue to follow up on it. Thanks very much. That does it for this special edition of "360." We'll see you again one hour from now at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. Thanks very much for watching.
PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT starts now.
