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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Electing a Pope; Oscar Pistorius' Mental Health?

Aired March 11, 2013 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.

It is just after 3:00 a.m. here in Rome and there is a lot happening in this city, in Vatican city, back home and around the world.

In addition to choosing the next leader of the Roman Catholic Church, there's a huge development affecting the lives of millions of Americans, a court today blocking New York City's ban on supersized sugary soft drinks. The question tonight, is it a victory for freedom or a blow against your family's health?

Also, the Blade Runner going nowhere fast. Is he also deteriorating mentally? Though his family denies it, there is surprising new word on how Oscar Pistorius may be handling the wait for his murder trial.

We begin, though, here in Rome with an election like none other in this world. How often can you say that about anything? Beyond just that, this election, this papal conclave has not happened under these circumstances in 598 years, taking place not after the death of a pope, but after his departure.

Catholics have come from every corner of the globe to drink in this moment, to feel the buzz and ultimately witness the outcome. What they cannot do, what really no one can, including 5,600 TV, radio and print reporters who have gathered here, is to actually see the process in action.

Only a very few inside the Vatican will be privy to any of it and only 115 men, 115 cardinal electors, will take part.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): It's already Tuesday in Vatican City, where later today, 115 cardinals from around the world will enter the Sistine Chapel charged with electing the next pope.

After the first vote Tuesday afternoon, all eyes in St. Peter's will be focused on this newly installed chimney, a puff of white smoke signaling a new pope has been chosen.

But what will guide the cardinals in their decision?

(on camera): Eight years ago, after the death of Pope John Paul II, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was the clear front-runner to become the next pope. This time around, however, there is not one clear front-runner. There are deep divisions among the 115 cardinals who will be voting here starting tomorrow, divisions between reformers and those who favor the status quo.

(voice-over): Some Vatican watchers see it as a showdown between the Romans, cardinals who already work inside the Vatican, and the reformers, cardinals, many from other countries, who want the next pope to more aggressively take on issues like sex abuse by priests and alleged corruption.

The Romans appear to be coalescing not around an Italian cardinal, but around Cardinal Odilo Pedro Scherer of Brazil. The reformers are actually said to be backing an Italian, Cardinal Angelo Scola of Milan. While openly campaigning for pope is frowned upon, both men made closely watched appearances at churches in Rome on Sunday.

Another contender, an American, Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, also greeted well-wishers at the local church he's affiliated with here in Rome. The U.S. has the second biggest voting bloc of cardinals behind the Italians.

The next pope could also be a cardinal from Ghana, Peter Turkson. He works for the Vatican, but comes from a continent that has seen an explosion in Catholicism over the last few decades. Complete discretion surrounds the entire voting process. Beyond the cardinals, an oath of secrecy was taken Monday by other priests on hand to aid in the vote, the Swiss guard, the Vatican police, even the cooks and cleaning staff.

And once the pope is elected, he will go here to the Room of Tears. The Vatican released rare footage of this chamber where the pontiff dons his papal robe for the first time. Because no one can predict who will be chosen, three robe sizes have been prepared to ensure that when the next pope addresses his flock for the first time, he has something appropriate to wear.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: And it all begins just a few hours from now with the morning mass.

Joining us now are two CNN contributors who we will no doubt be leaning on a lot in the coming days, senior Vatican analyst John Allen. He's also senior correspondent for "National Catholic Reporter." Also, commentator and Roman Catholic priest Father Edward Beck.

Appreciate both of you being with us.

Much is being made about the divisions among these 115 cardinals. Explain, if you can, the camps, if there are.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Well, listen, whenever you have got a group of 115 guys who have reached the pinnacle of their profession -- and they all have strong ideas about which way the church ought to go -- divisions are inevitable.

Now, historically, we have handicapped these divisions in terms of geography, Europeans vs. new worlders, for example, or ideology, moderates vs. conservatives. But I think the more relevant division in this conclave is at the level of business management, which is the central complaint that many cardinals have.

There's a perception that Benedict was a great teacher, but a subpar business manager. So what you have got is an old guard that is very attached to traditional ways of doing business in the Vatican.

COOPER: Would that be -- a lot of people say it's Romans vs. reformers. That would be the Romans you're talking about.

ALLEN: Yes, although not all these guys are actual Romans. These are guys who have been in Rome a long time.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Worked at the Vatican, worked inside.

ALLEN: Worked at the Vatican, exactly.

And then you have got cardinals from all over the rest of the world who quite frankly are tired of picking up the pieces when bombs go off here, who want to see a serious reform of this place. I think that's the fault line that is going to drive the train in this election.

COOPER: The irony, though -- and it's sort of counterintuitive -- is it's said that a lot of the Romans, those who have worked inside the Vatican, are actually looking more toward a cardinal from Brazil, whereas many of the so-called reformers are looking to a cardinal from Milan.

ALLEN: Well, look, here's the math. OK?

The math is that the Vatican cardinals in this conclave are 38 out of 115. They cannot win this election alone. So they need to knit together a coalition. One way of doing that is to appeal to the instinct many cardinals feel that it would be good to elect a pope from outside the West, which is where two-thirds of the 1.2 billion Catholics in the world today live.

So this idea of finding somebody who would be acceptable to the old guard, but also put a face on that Catholic footprint outside the West, could be a winning combination.

COOPER: And, Father Beck, it seems like the roles this next pope will be required to play are many. I suppose that's the same for any pope. But it's not just being a good manager at the Vatican or being a good emissary to the faith, an evangelizer or -- there are many different hats this pope is expected to wear.

REV. EDWARD BECK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Most definitely. Let's go back to what you were saying about reformer. What I'm hearing from my parishioners is they want a clean slate. They want somebody who will clean house.

And, traditionally, reformers in the church have been members of religious communities who have some way critiqued the institutional church. They say when in Rome. I have been reading the papers here and talking to Romans. They are talking about Cardinal Sean O'Malley from Boston.

Now, seen as a reformer, because he's cleaned up Boston after Cardinal Law, but interestingly, he walks around in his Franciscan habit. John has Franciscans are rock stars in Rome because of their simplicity. And if he ever stepped out on that balcony in that religious habit, which I think he probably would do if he were ever elected, it would be seen as something totally new in the Catholic Church. I think it would give a lot of people who are talking to me anyway hope that something is really changing.

COOPER: But do anyone -- folks who have worked in the Vatican, cardinals who have worked in the Vatican, they don't say that they are not reformers, do they?

ALLEN: Well, listen, everybody says they're for reform.

COOPER: Right.

ALLEN: The question is, how do you define it?

And I think many of the cardinals who are coming into this election from other parts of the world who are kind of in an anti- establishment mood, to be honest with you, what they mean by reform are sort of three things. One, they want the Vatican to be more transparent, both internally and externally.

Second, they want people to be held accountable. There has been a serial problem over the last eight years of people, quite honestly, dropping the ball just in terms of good governance and never being held accountable for it. And then third, they want this place to be efficient. The old saying in Rome about the Vatican is talk to me on Tuesday and I will get back to you in 300 years.

Well, that may have worked in the past, but I think there are a lot of people who are frustrated at how slowly the wheels grind here.

COOPER: There is also a saying I have heard, and I'm probably mangling it, but sort of enter the conclave a pope, leave a cardinal.

BECK: You hear that all the time, but really historically it has not been true. Joseph Ratzinger went into the conclave leading. Pope Paul VI as well went in and people were talking about him. So, I don't know exactly why that phrase continues to have some veracity, because it doesn't seem to historically to be true.

(CROSSTALK)

ALLEN: Well, it's cute and it gets all of us off the hook for these wild predictions we make when they turn out not to be true.

But he's absolutely right. If you look at the conclaves of the 20th century, half the time, the guy who was identified as the front- runner actually got elected. The problem, Anderson, this time, there is no front-runner.

COOPER: And that's what makes it so interesting this time, I think.

BECK: Well, and I think it says more to if you enter pope, if you talk about yourself as pope, if you seem to be politicizing it or politicking yourself, it's seen as a negative. So, if you do that, it's like the kiss of death as far as they're concerned.

COOPER: Right. And yet it's interesting. You see Cardinal Dolan literally kissing babies and getting a huge amount of attention. Is that viewed negatively?

BECK: I don't think so for him, because it's seen like this big personality that even before there was talk of him as pope. That's just who the guy is. And he doesn't restrain it.

I was at the church yesterday for his mass and I know some of the Italians in that church had never seen anything like it before. Even though it's his titular church, they were amazed at his joie de vivre.

ALLEN: Although we should say there are some cardinals I have been talking to this week who really admire Dolan as an evangelizer and a pitch man, but think it might just be a little bit too much for pope.

One of them told me if that Dolan got elected pope, the other 5,000 bishops of the Catholic Church might as well take the next 15 years off because you will never see or hear from them again.

COOPER: What is the role of the next pope? Because it's many hats.

ALLEN: Well, look, frankly, I think being pope is an impossible job.

Think about what we want popes to be. We want them to be intellectual giants. We want them to be political heavyweights. We want them to be Fortune 500 CEOs. We want them to be living saints and we want them to be media rock stars. Any one of those things is hard to do on a good day.

You roll them all up together, it is impossible. So nobody can do all that. So inevitably what these 115 cardinals are doing are looking around at one another and saying, OK, who among us comes closest to meeting that job description?

COOPER: And it was a day-and-a-half or two days for Ratzinger to become the pope. You think it could go longer this time because there is no clear front-runner?

BECK: I think it's twice as complicated so I'm saying twice as long.

COOPER: All right. I'm not going to hold you to that, though.

John Allen, Father Beck, thank you very much.

Let us know what you think. Follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. That's the Twitter. I will be tweeting tonight as well.

We can't show you the actual conclave, of course. But, next, you will get a remarkable computer-assisted look through the eyes of these cardinals as they choose a new pope, exactly what goes on in that room. We will give you a virtual tour of the Sistine Chapel. Our papal coverage continues throughout the hour.

Later, he's out on bail awaiting trial for killing his girlfriend. Is the so-called Blade Runner, Oscar Pistorius, also going downhill mentally? There's new reports on that and his push for permission to travel overseas all ahead tonight on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Hey, welcome back. We're coming to you live from Rome, where it is already Tuesday morning, very early Tuesday morning. We're obviously in front of St. Peter's and just a few blocks from the Sistine Chapel, where later today, as you have been hearing, the men who will elect the next pope won't even be able to get a cell phone signal out; 115 cardinal electors will be so far off the grid, they will be sending out smoke signals instead of instant messages.

But for all the talk about the shroud of secrecy and the penalties for piercing it, we do know a bit about the way papal conclaves have gone in the past. We know a lot about what it looks and feels and sounds like inside the Sistine Chapel.

Tom Foreman takes us inside tonight a remarkable computer simulation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As you know, Anderson, the Sistine Chapel is one of the most visited and open places in all of Europe. On any given day, thousands of tourists stream in through here, especially to see the extraordinary fresco painted by Michelangelo in the 1500s depicting the creation of man.

But now this has been transformed into one of the most private and secretive places in all of Europe because this is where the cardinals will select the new pope. So how do they do that?

First with a vow of secrecy. Each of the cardinals must swear that he will not allow the secrets of this room to get outside. There are no BlackBerrys, no cell phone, no radios, no communication of any sort with anyone beyond this room, under pain of excommunication, because this is a very solemn and sacred ceremony to the people of this church. The windows have been painted out overhead so no one can spy in. They swept the room for electronic bugs so no one can listen in. But once they have dispensed with all that, they can get on to the voting. There is likely going to be one vote the first day, then two votes each morning and two votes each afternoon from there on out. How's the voting done?

Pieces of paper are handed out to each of the cardinals. Upon these pieces of paper, each cardinal will write the name of the person he thinks should be the next pope. Once he's done, he will fold it twice like this and hold it overhead. Then he will walk up the center aisle to the altar, where he will kneel briefly in prayer. Then he will extend his ballot out and drop it into a special receptacle right up front.

A group of cardinals will then count all the ballots to make sure the number of ballots matches the number of people in the room. Then they will read all the names aloud so everyone can hear the voting, and as each ballot is named and read, they will thread it with a needle and thread to create one collection of all the names.

If you get 77 names or more, that's more than two-thirds of the 115 cardinals in this room. That would be a winning vote and we would know who the next pope is going to be. If not, then they know they have to vote again. Either way, they move on to the next step, and that is the burning of the ballots.

Whether or not they select a pope, twice a day, the ballots will be burned in these special stoves which have been installed in the back of the Sistine Chapel. That one over there is pretty much just a regular stove that's kept burning all the time. This is the one where the ballots go, and when they put them in, that's the only communication they have with the outside world, because if they have not selected a pope, then when they throw the ballots inside, they will put some wet straw or some chemicals over there that will make the smoke come up black.

Otherwise, they will let it burn freely or maybe even add some chemicals that kick a little bit of white smoke into it so the world knows if a new pope has been chosen -- Anderson.

COOPER: Tom, thanks very much.

Of course, all eyes are going to be on that smokestack late tomorrow afternoon. That's when the first vote actually takes place and there is often some confusion whether the smoke is white or black. It's a little hard to tell. They're actually going to ring the bells of St. Peter's when a pope has been elected to verify, in fact, it is white smoke.

More now on the candidates and how very, very delicately, very gingerly they may be trying to influence the outcome. There are, of course, no campaign rallies. However, there is campaigning of a sort.

My colleague Chris Cuomo discovered while spending time with a leading American cardinal. Chris and I spoke a short time ago. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: You spent part of yesterday with Cardinal Dolan from New York, one of -- people say a leading contender, though it's doubtful an American would be named pope this time around.

It's an interesting dance they're kind of doing right now.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He wants to be charismatic.

He's telling jokes. He's making the crowd go wild. He said don't tell anybody when he's at his titular church here, but, oh, St. Patrick's, this is my favorite. The crowd goes wild, but then he's solemn and he says this is my first conclave. There are such big issues. We have to look to God for inspiration so he has to go back and forth. Not easy. Not easy.

COOPER: A lot is being made about divisions within the church right now among these 115 cardinals, about reformers and people who are more associated with the inner workings of the Vatican. Do you think too much is being made of that?

CUOMO: Ordinarily, I would say yes. But this time, we have heard from too many sources, Anderson, that when the foreign cardinals came in, those not from the Curia working here in the Vatican....

COOPER: The Americans and Europeans.

CUOMO: That's right.

And they all came in and they were pushing back. They're saying we're not setting a date for the conclave right away. We want to talk about these big issues and that there's been a lot robust debate, that a lot of foreign cardinals are meeting on their own about things.

So there's real reason to believe this could be a watershed moment for the Catholic Church.

COOPER: Unlikely that it will be done within two days, like it was the last time.

CUOMO: Last time, it was somewhat known that then Joseph Ratzinger was a strong candidate. Here, given the big issues, given that spirit of this is an opportunity, this is unique, we believe it will go longer, but it's so frustrating for us to report this because the only men who know anything ain't talking under threat of excommunication.

COOPER: A lot of reporters milling around, 5,600, waiting for information. Chris, appreciate it. It's going to be a fascinating couple of days.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Designers have already been hard at work on clothes for the new pope, whoever he may be, whatever size he may be. Designers are ready for anything, small, medium, large. The robes are all set to go. Coming up, we will show you what goes into the papal outfit from head to toe.

Also ahead, large sugary drinks are safe in New York City for now after a court ruling struck down the ban just before it was supposed to go into effect. We will get reaction on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Hey. Welcome back.

Supersized sugary drinks got a last-minute reprieve today in New York just hours before a controversial city-wide ban was to take effect. A state judge blocked it, calling the ban arbitrary and capricious, also saying the court finds the regulation herein is laden with exceptions based on economic and political concerns.

Now, the ban would have restricted the sale of sugary drinks to no more than 16 ounces in restaurants, fast food eateries, movie theaters, stadiums, but also would have exempted some retailers, including 7/Eleven, which is regulated by the state, not the city; 7/Eleven also sells the popular Big Gulp drinks. Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who pushed hard for this law, is vowing to appeal today's ruling.

Here's what he said in an interview with David Letterman earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN")

DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": What happened?

MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (I), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: A state court judge said the Department of Health didn't have the authority to do it. We think that they do. We will appeal.

In the meantime, this year, 70,000 Americans will die from obesity, 5,000 here in New York. We have got to do something about it.

LETTERMAN: Seventy thousand Americans?

BLOOMBERG: Seventy thousand will die from obesity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Joining me now is Michael Moynihan, senior editor at "Newsweek" and Daily Beast, and CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeff, the judge said this is -- quote -- "laden with exceptions based on economic and political concerns." There really are a number of stores, like convenience stores that would be able to sell these supersized drinks, but not restaurants. Beverages with a high milk content would be exempt. Is this a constitutional issue for the judge or is it because there are just too many loopholes?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's sort of hard to tell. He just doesn't like the law and rules it arbitrary.

I think it's a terrible decision, poorly reasoned, and the idea that just because you can't ban everything and you can't do everything to limit obesity, that you can't do anything, I think is just a mistaken idea. I think this was a reasonable step by Mayor Bloomberg and I think an appeals court will overturn it.

COOPER: Well, Jeff, in order to get it to be overturned, would Bloomberg have to try to change the law to make it kind of across the board, not have there be exemptions or loopholes?

TOOBIN: No, no. No, he would just say that this law is reasonable. Look, he banned trans fats in restaurants, but he didn't ban trans fats at home.

He banned smoking in bars and restaurants, but he didn't ban smoking at home or on the sidewalks. There are always exceptions. There are always loopholes in law, but that doesn't mean that a judge can throw out the whole thing. This is one step that will limit obesity and diabetes, which are enormous problems in this city. And I don't see why the judge took it upon himself to act like he was the legislature and decide he wouldn't have agreed to this law.

That's not what judges are supposed to do.

COOPER: Michael, how do you see it? I know you said this is basically a slippery slope, this ban.

MICHAEL MOYNIHAN, SENIOR EDITOR, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, it is.

And I would say that banning cigarettes in a bar, for instance, where they can adversely affect other people, vs. banning them in somebody's home is telling people what they can do in their own home is slightly different.

In this case, as the judge pointed out -- I will let Jeff adjudicate the legal angle. The moral angle here, I would say, is that it is kind of strange that you can go to a 7/Eleven, a big corporation, and buy a 28,000-ounce drink and then go -- you can't go next door to the small bodega and buy the same thing, because 7/Eleven has bigger power and has lobbied for this sort of thing in the past.

So the judge is right in that sense that there's a tangle of weird regulations and loopholes. But I would say, yes, it's also a weird slippery slope, is that, you know, Mayor Bloomberg has also talked about banning large size popcorn in movie theaters. He's talked about salts, regulating how much salt restaurants use in certain dishes.

I mean, there has to be at some point an end to this. Will this ban, if it were to be overturned, have a significant impact on waistlines? It's doubtful and there's not really a lot of evidence to suggest that. In his news conference today, he talked about the menu labeling and there's a lot of studies that suggest that hasn't helped either.

So I think there's a much deeper issue that can't be solved here by sort of quick fix bits of regulation.

COOPER: Michael Moynihan, Jeff Toobin, guys, thanks very much.

Just ahead tonight, the backlash over a new book that suggests women may be their own worst enemy when it comes to landing top leadership jobs in the workplace. What do women want and are they going after it?

Also tonight, disturbing reports about the mental health of the so-called Blade Runner, Oscar Pistorius, accused of murdering his girlfriend. There's word he may be suicidal. His family denies it vigorously. We will get an update from Drew Griffin, who just got back from South Africa, and more here from Rome about today's conclave later on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Coming up on 360, accused murderer Oscar Pistorius is pressing for more lenient bail conditions. What he's asking the court to change and what his family is saying about a report that he may be suicidal. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: In the last few weeks, one of the most powerful women in business has found herself at the center of a storm that is still raging. Sheryl Sandberg, chief operating officer of Facebook, is facing a backlash because of what she said in her new book, "Lean In: Women, Work and the Will to Lead." She touched a nerve, to put it mildly, by suggesting that women may be holding themselves back, sabotaging their own success. A provocative message to be sure, and one that has angered some women.

On "60 Minutes" last night, Norah O'Donnell asked Sandberg about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NORAH O'DONNELL, "60 MINUTES": But some women will hear that and say, "Wow, she's telling me that I'm not working hard enough, I'm not trying hard enough. She's blaming women."

SHERYL SANDBERG, COO, FACEBOOK: Yes. I'm not blaming women. My message is not one of blaming women. There's an awful lot we don't control. I am saying that there's an awful lot we can control. And we can do, for ourselves, to sit at more tables, raise more hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: What do you think? Before you decide, listen to this conversation I had earlier with Nora O'Donnell and "Fortune" magazine's Patty Sellers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Sheryl Sandberg says it's not just men holding back women; it's actually women holding back themselves. Now I want to play something from the interview you were doing on "60 Minutes." Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDBERG: They start leaning back. They say, "Oh, I'm busy. I want to have a child one day. I couldn't possibly, you know, take on any more." Or, "I'm still learning on my current job". I've never had a man say that stuff to me.

O'DONNELL: You're suggesting that women aren't ambitious.

SANDBERG: I'm not saying women aren't ambitious. Plenty of women are as ambitious as men. What I am saying, and I want to say it unequivocally and unapologetically, that the data is clear. That when it comes to ambition to lead, to be the leader of whatever you're doing, men, boys, outnumber girls and women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: What do you think of that notion, that women are holding themselves back?

O'DONNELL: Well, I think what Sheryl Sandberg is saying is that, essentially, women have internalized some of the messages they've been given as young as little girls: when we call girls bossy for their behavior. A sign, essentially, a negative turn -- term for their behavior. I think there's some truth to it. I thinks there is somewhat of an ambition gap.

COOPER: Patty, there's a lot of backlash against her for this.

PATTY SELLERS, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: There is. There are two points of view. One is that it's the institution's fault. The other view is, which is Sheryl's view, it's our fault. And there's a polarization here that's happening, and Sheryl is saying, "I'm taking the braver point of view." The more -- the more difficult case to make, which is that, let's blame ourselves. She's brave.

COOPER: Do you think there would have been this backlash, though, if a man had written this book and said this about men? Do you think there would have been the same kind of backlash?

SELLERS: Well, a man wouldn't say it about men, because -- because men -- men have the same qualifications for a job as a woman does, which may not be enough to get that promotion. A man will put himself out there. A woman will say, "I need to -- I need to be more ready."

O'DONNELL: I think it's an incredible argument to be having right now, because I think women are at a turning point. You have 30 years, women have been going, getting more college degrees than men, for 30 years, Anderson. Women are now getting more Ph.D.'s than men, more medical agrees, more law degrees. We're at this turning point, and yet there are so few women in leadership positions. So Sheryl Sandberg is saying, why is that?

And she is putting the onus on women themselves. And what I've heard from, you know, girlfriends and other moms, there's a very strong reaction to what she's saying. A very strong reaction. Because a lot of people say, "I can't be Sheryl Sandberg." She's not trying to say that, "Be like me." But I think she has embodied this message.

And then I guess the other thing I find interesting about Sheryl Sandberg, for someone who's so incredibly successful, is that she's very insecure. She's uncomfortable, in some ways, with her own power and influence, and it goes back to, as we put in our "60 Minutes" piece, from how she was treated both as a young girl and in high school.

COOPER: But Sheryl Sandberg says that women in the business world should worry about being liked?

O'DONNELL: Yes, yes. In fact, Mark Zuckerberg said to her, you know, at some point, "I think your biggest problem is that you want too much to be liked."

SELLERS: And Norah, you point out that Sheryl talks a lot in her book about her vulnerabilities, her insecurities. She's very strategic in doing that. She knows she has to do that, to be liked. And for this message to resonate. Because if she got out there and she talked about how she's always been confident, she knew she would be successful, her message would go nowhere.

COOPER: It's so interesting that that double standard exists, that men don't do that, and it's fine, and if a woman wrote the same kind of book, you know, with her confidence out in front, it would be viewed as inappropriate somehow.

O'DONNELL: Right. And I think you make an excellent point about that: in terms of revealing her vulnerabilities, to make herself more likable.

But at the same time, she's incredibly successful. What other, you know, even anyone, male or female: two Harvard degrees, hand- picked by Larry Summers to be your chief of staff at the Treasury Department, all before the age of 30, and hit two IPOs, Google and Facebook. I mean, almost a billionaire, and her husband is incredibly wealthy and successful in Silicon Valley. She is at the pinnacle of success.

O'DONNELL: She is. She's at the pinnacle of success, an incredibly powerful woman.

And the question is, why is she really doing this? Because most other women in business, as Patty knows better than anybody else, tries not to be -- bring up the whole point that they're a woman in business. They just want to be a businessperson. SELLERS: We've been tracking powerful women now for 15 years. And it -- women -- successful women are different from successful men. And men...

COOPER: In what ways?

SELLERS: Men tend to view their careers as ladders. Straight up, they look at the next rung. They view power vertically. Women -- and I've asked hundreds of women, and probably at this point, hundreds of men, how do you view power? Women tend to view power horizontally.

COOPER: Which means what?

SELLERS: It's all about influence. It's all about having an influence, not necessarily just getting the next job, but being effective, broadly. It's what causes a lot of women to drop out of corporate America, because they don't feel fulfilled, just by getting that promotion. Or a big pay raise.

What we see Sheryl Sandberg doing right now is a reflection of that. She's not satisfied being COO of Facebook. She wants to do something more. She's looking at her power horizontally.

O'DONNELL: She's also got, I think, kind of a tough message. Which is that, you know, she was speaking to a group of Harvard Business School students, and she bluntly said, you know, "A third of you women will not be working ten years from now, and the rest of you will actually be working for the guy sitting next to you." That's a pretty, you know, startling message for you to hear.

Why is it that women, even in the most elite women, who have advanced degrees from some of the most prestigious schools in this country, have chosen to drop out of the workforce and are not interested in leadership positions? And that's a really interesting thing to think about, I think.

SELLERS: Yes.

COOPER: It's a good discussion to have. Norah, fascinating piece. Thank you very much.

O'DONNELL: Thank you.

COOPER: Patty, thank you very much.

SELLERS: Thank you, Anderson.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: I want to know what you think on Twitter right now, @AndersonCooper.

Here in Rome, the first vote on a new pope could be just hours away, probably about 12 or 13 hours away. We don't know who will accept the job, but there's already a lot of buzz over what they'll wear from head to toe, believe it or not. We'll look at that when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Tonight, conflicting reports about Oscar Pistorius's mental health. As you probably know, the South African track star is accused of murdering his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp. He's out on bail, awaiting trial.

Now, he admits he killed Steenkamp but claims it was a terrible mistake, that he mistook her for an intruder.

Pistorius, who's known as the Blade Runner for his high-tech carbon prosthetics, has been living at his uncle's home. Under the conditions of his bail, he can't return to his own home, where the killing occurred, or have any alcohol. He also had to give up his passport.

Well, today the BBC reported that Pistorius is suicidal and basically broke. They cited a close family friend as their source. The Blade Runner's family is denying those reports.

Drew Griffin has been following the case closely; just returned from South Africa.

What's the latest, Drew?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Two developments today, Anderson. One, the denial that Pistorius is, in fact, destitute and suicidal. And two, the Blade Runner asking for even more leniency in those bail conditions, including allowing him to leave South Africa.

He's already been allowed out of jail while he awaits trial, but he can't travel; he's pretty much restricted to his uncle's mansion in Pretoria. His lawyers say he now wants his passport back, and he wants to be able to travel internationally, presumably to make some appearances where he could be paid, make money for his defense.

The national prosecution's office says it's going to oppose, Anderson, any lifting of that travel ban and other things that he wants lifted from his bail.

COOPER: And on that, the family admits he is in need of money, and there's a report he's depressed to the point of suicide. What have you heard about that?

GRIFFIN: Yes. That report, a BBC report quoting a close friend over the weekend that said Oscar is really down, he's suicidal. That just not true, according to his uncle, Arnold. That's the Arnold that he's staying with.

Arnold Pistorius released this statement today, saying in part that "Oscar, broken as he currently is, believes he does have a purpose in life and is working towards that. Media reports to the contrary are untrue."

The uncle flat-out denying any suicide threats, but the statement did go on to say that Oscar is trying to sell that home in Pretoria and some racehorses to cover the trial expenses.

COOPER: And as for the case itself, to people who may not have followed this, it's an extraordinary position for him to be in, claiming he was awoken in the middle of the night, that his girlfriend was spending the night, and somehow he got up from the bed, heard some sort of noise, grabbed the gun, and shot what he thought was a burglar through the door of the bathroom, only realizing after the shooting that he'd, in fact, shot his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, who, he said, I guess, he didn't even check the bed for.

GRIFFIN: Yes, the bed he got out of, by the way. Yes.

And I must tell you, South Africans are really struggling to believe this truly beloved sports star of their country. Even given the level of anxiety over crime in South Africa, Anderson, he lived in an extremely secure community: electrified fences all around it, dogs.

And we're talking about shooting through a toilet door. Not just the bathroom door, but an interior door to just the toilet, without knowing who's behind it.

When I was in South Africa, I talked to the president of the South African Sports Shooting Club about this, and he says, really, there's just two options here. Either Oscar Pistorius is the most irresponsible gun owner in South Africa, or he is, as the prosecutors allege, guilty of premeditated murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRIFFIN: He knows not what's behind that closed door. That doesn't sound like what you would advocate as responsible gun ownership.

ADNAAN JACOBS, PRESIDENT, SOUTH AFRICAN SPORTS SHOOTING CLUB: Sir, I'm going to be very honest and very frank with you, but at the South African Sports Shooting Association, we teach you if you do not see a target, do not engage it. Bottom line.

So shooting -- for us to shoot through a door, how do we know what we're shooting at on the other side? You don't know what you're shooting at. So if you don't see a target -- our shooting is, when you see the target, point the gun and engage the target. If there's no target and you're pointing a gun, sorry, go home, bye-bye.

So what I'm trying to say to you is, we would never say, "Shoot through something, and don't know what you're shooting at and what the target is on the other side."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRIFFIN: Just some disbelief, Anderson, from gun experts in South Africa.

Oscar Pistorius's next court appearance, not scheduled until June, unless they have some kind of a bail modification hearing -- Anderson. COOPER: All right. Again, we'll see if, in fact, his passport is given back and he can travel.

Let's get caught up on some of the other stories we're following. Isha's here with a "360 News & Business Bulletin" -- Isha.

ISHA SESAY, HLN ANCHOR: Two Americans were killed, and at least ten were wounded in a shoot-out in Afghanistan today. Someone wearing an Afghan national security forces uniform opened fire with a truck- mounted machine gun after a meeting between coalition and Afghan forces. A U.S. official says coalition forces returned fire and killed the attacker and two Afghan army personnel.

North Korea's army has scrapped the armistice agreement that ended the Korean War in 1953. That's according to the official newspaper of the country's ruling party. North Korea had been threatening the move ever since the U.N. Security Council passed stronger sanctions following its nuclear test last month. North Korea has nullified the agreement several other times in the past.

In Ohio, six teenagers, ages 14 to 19, died in a single-vehicle crash in a stolen SUV. Police say the SUV crashed into a guardrail and flipped over into a pond. Two other teenagers escaped the submerged vehicle by breaking a rear window. Police say none of the passengers had a seat belt on.

The NFL is teaming up with GE and Under Armour in a $60 million four-year deal aimed at reducing the threat of head injuries for football players. Forty million will go to research and 20 million will go to prizes for new diagnostic techniques and ways to prevent injuries.

And Justin Timberlake's fifth time as host was a charm for "Saturday Night Live." His hosting gig this weekend reportedly brought "SNL" its highest ratings since January 2012, when Charles Barkley hosted.

In this week's "American Journey," a company in Iowa is working on a new way to avoid all those fees that credit card companies charge. The company's trying to change the way we pay for things, by taking both credit cards and cash out of the mix altogether. Once again, here's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Far from the bustle of New York, Chicago, and other financial powerhouses, in Des Moines, Bill Milne is leading an economic revolution.

(on camera): You're basically trying to kill money, aren't you?

BILL MILNE, CEO/CO-FOUNDER, DWALLA: Well, we're trying to give people a better alternative to actual cash, yes.

FOREMAN (voice-over): And he explains it with a quick stop in a restaurant, his cell phone and the app that connects him to his company, called Dwalla.

(on camera): So I sit down here, and I order a cheese panini. And the bill comes, and what do I do?

MILNE: Basically, I just select the location, type in how much I owe them and hit pay. They confirm that I paid, and the transaction is over.

FOREMAN: That's it?

MILNE: That's it. No cards, no cash, no nothing, just all based on the Internet.

FOREMAN (voice-over): The target is not just paper money, but more specifically, credit cards that charge percentages on every dollar of every purchase, tens of billions paid by merchants and consumers alike. Other companies are trying to undercut that system, which Milne has always found disturbing.

MILNE: We work very hard for our money, and when we exchange it with someone else who has worked very hard to receive that money, it shouldn't just get siphoned off to some third party.

FOREMAN: Dwalla's alternative? Quick, electronic cash transfers ton cheap. There's no fee for any purchase under $10, and over $10, the fee is a flat 25 cents, that's all. The state of Iowa likes it so much, it signed up this year to let Dwalla handle tax payments.

MILNE: We also have consumers or kind of personal users in all 50 states. So people use Dwalla all over the U.S.

FOREMAN: And that could turn Dwalla into a big player, one quarter at a time.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Des Moines.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SESAY: Tom Foreman, many thanks -- Anderson.

COOPER: Isha, thanks. Coming up, we don't yet know who the next pope will be, which poses a bit of a dilemma for those who have to make his clothing. But believe me, they are on top of it. We'll explain ahead. Next, an inside look at what goes into designing the papal outfit, right down to his shoes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, here in Rome, really across the entire world, people are waiting to hear who will be the next pope. But for those who have to design what the next pope will wear, the mystery hits a little closer to home. They've got to be ready for pretty much anything, including small, medium, and large, and they are. From the robes right down to the shoes, dressing the pope is a challenge for any designer, but it is certainly a welcome one.

Dan Rivers has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You might think dressing a pope is easy. The miter, the mantel, the cape, the papal skull cap and those long, white robes.

But while the outline is carefully controlled by the Vatican, there are subtle variations, allowing each pope his own sartorial expression.

Benedict XVI wore red shoes, initially wrongly identified as Prada, which of course, only the devil wears. In fact, the shoes were made here in a backstreet shop near the Vatican, by Peruvian cobbler, Antonio Arellano. He says he's incredibly proud to have provided shoes to the pope and hopes the next pontiff will order his footwear here, too.

Some of the pope's robes are made here at family firm Gammarelli. In the shop window, three outfits ready to take to the Vatican.

LORENZO GAMMARELLI, MAKES ROBES FOR POPE: These different sizes, one small, one medium, and one large.

Gullelmo Mariotto is a fashion director at Gattinoni, a top Italian couture house. He shows me the workshop where they have made garments for previous popes, including this green mantle, embroidered with threads of sack cloth to represent the humility of St. Francis.

And controversially, where they made papal costumes for women, so-called popesses, who took part in an irreverent fashion show.

But his most serious work is dressing the likes of Pope Benedict XVI, who was harder to design for than John Paul II, whose charisma was easy to reflect.

GULLELMO MARIOTTO, FASHION DIRECTOR, GATTINONI: In the case of Benedict, it's a different charm. It's more like the priest and the school, theologist. Not kidding about, plus the German accent, plus he's not the tallest in the world. Come on, what can you do?

RIVERS: He doesn't know who will be the next pope, but says in this case, the clothes do not make the man.

MARIOTTO: I don't wish a pope that I could dress. I wish a pope that can fix my problems and can -- I can feel like I have a pope. Then, whatever he is, we can dress him in pleasure, with love, with everything. But we need a pope. A pope is needed always.

RIVERS (on camera): Deciding what to wear is the least of the pope's problems, but for the designers who have to put their own spin on the papal outfit, there is no greater challenge than making clothes for the pope.

Dan rivers, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: That's it for us. Thanks for watching. We'll see you from Rome tomorrow night.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.