Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Syrian Crisis; New Evidence in Boston Bombings
Aired April 30, 2013 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, welcome to the program. This is a special edition of 360. I'm Anderson Cooper.
If you caught the program last night, welcome back. If you're tuning into the first time, welcome.
Here's what we're up to in the hour ahead. All week long, I will be joined throughout this hour at this table by chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and Amy Holmes, anchor for The Blaze TV, and every night a different guest, a special guest will also join us in our fifth chair, someone with a perspective that will make the conversation that much more interesting.
We will tell you who tonight's special guest in just a few minutes. And you can join the conversation as well by tweeting with hashtag AC360.
Tonight, President Obama said the use of chemical weapons by Syria would be a game changer and a red line. Well, now he's saying he needs more evidence and taking plenty of heat for it. The question is, should the U.S. intervene and if so how?
Also tonight, new evidence in the Boston bombing case and new word there had been talks of the possibility, just the possibility, of taking the death penalty for the young suspect off the table.
And later, Catherine Zeta-Jones announcing her decision to go into a medical treatment facility battling bipolar two disorder.
Also, the NBA's Jason Collins' decision to come out becoming the first active, openly gay athlete. Both stories examples tonight of living your life in the public eye. Our special guest tonight has firsthand knowledge of what that is like, a major Hollywood star who is also becoming a major player in the world of politics. She will join us shortly.
We begin, though, with Syria. Some things we know. The Assad regime has murdered tens of thousands of people in the last two years. The regime is known to have chemical weapons. President Obama has said that the use of those weapons by the regime would be a red line, a game changer. The administration said there's evidence that the nerve gas sarin has been used. But today in a press conference today, President Obama said he wants more information.
And that drew plenty of political fire. It also draws attention to the fact that there aren't many simple or easy options for American involvement. Let's talk about that.
Christiane, you say something must be done?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and so do many. So do the Israelis, so do the Turks, so do the Brits and the French.
Many people say something must be done, because when you establish a red line, then you have to do something about it.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Was it a mistake for him to establish a red line?
AMANPOUR: I don't know, because you're talking, again, about the highest crime under international law, if weapons of mass destruction are being deployed.
But here's the thing. In diplo-speak, a red line means military action. That is not official, but that's how it is understood. So, today, the president said in his press conference with all the caveats that he's been saying that he needs the evidence, he needs to be absolutely sure before he commits to any kind of action.
Two things. He said even without weapons of mass destruction, chemical weapons, sarin, 70,000 people have been killed. And even that, obviously, is a massive disaster. He also then said that he has asked his military to draw up options. Apparently, he did last year. We know that Hillary Clinton, then CIA Director Petraeus, then Defense Secretary Panetta all were for arming the rebels and doing extra things.
Tonight, "The Washington Post" is reporting that potentially the president is considering arming the rebels in some form or fashion. That follow quite a lot of public -- private-public sort of leaking that Secretary of State Kerry has been talking about all of that as well. Maybe we will see that.
COOPER: Do you think it was a mistake to draw a red line? Because after you draw it, then you do sort of have to do something.
AMY HOLMES, "REAL NEWS": Right. Then your credibility is on the line.
I think it was a mistake to draw the red line, particularly if he doesn't intend to enforce it.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: I think it was the wrong metric in the first place, that the mere fact that Syria has the fourth largest chemical weapons cache in the entire world meant that that was always going to be a national security threat to the United States should the wrong people get their hands on it.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Why is that a national security threat to the United States?
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: ... al Qaeda get their hands on it. That is a direct national security threat to the United States and, actually, the whole world.
TOOBIN: So it's not the current Syrian government. It's the rebels that are the national security threat to the United States?
HOLMES: The chemical weapons that might fall into the hands of these rebels, which makes me nervous, because if there's clearly a threat, yet on the other hand, Christiane, I'm nervous that we can't separate friend from foe.
COOPER: But there's also no guarantee that if you intervene and who knows what government comes into place afterward.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Senator McCain shrugged it off last night. But the Pentagon did tell the White House it would take 75,000 troops to be able to secure those chemical weapons.
COOPER: Let me just bring in another guest just who is joining us remote, Middle East scholar Aaron David mil Miller, distinguished scholar at the Woodrow Wilson Center.
It's good to have you here.
Aaron, what do you make of this? Was it a mistake for President Obama to draw a red line like this?
AARON DAVID MILLER, PUBLIC POLICY SCHOLAR, WOODROW WILSON INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR SCHOLARS: You're a president. You're asked over the course of the last year what happens if Syrians deploy chemical weapons. You're going to say something significant.
You're not simply going to say, I'm not sure what I will do. He used the word game changer. He used the word red line. The problem though with red lines is that they turn pink very quickly. The reality is is that the gap, if the gap between rhetoric and action is so large that it swallows up with remains of American credibility in this region, the president has a significant problem.
And, second, the reality is Assad has introduced these weapons incrementally, artillery, airpower, even surface-to-surface missiles. And now he's doing precisely the same things with C.W.s
The reality is something has to be done.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: What is C.W.?
COOPER: Chemical weapons. MILLER: Chemical weapons -- in an effort -- sorry -- in an effort to impose some kind of cost.
The president -- Look, we're coming out of the two longest wars in American history where the standard for victory was never could we win, but when could we leave? And the idea of getting into these conflicts where military power can be very effective, but it must be related to the end state, but is a lot easier than getting out. So Obama's got a real problem.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Last night, Andrew Sullivan was on the show and he really -- you and he went head-to-head on this question of, have we learned the lessons of Iraq?
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Yes, but you see, I think one can overcorrect.
Iraq was a hunt for weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist, an attempt to prove a negative. They didn't exist. Here, Saddam Hussein, everybody knows he has them.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Sorry, Assad.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: ... involvement in a country that has a lot of different sectarian splits.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Because, you know what, you asked about the bad guys. Excuse me, the bad guys, according to the United States, is the Assad regime. They're using them right now.
The president has said over and over again Assad must step down, in order for there to be a political resolution to this. The entire national community except for Russia and China is committed to that.
TOOBIN: Aaron, let's say we decide to make some sort of effort, whether it's through proxies or through ourselves. How will we know if we have won? What will victory look like?
MILLER: Jeff, the removal of the Assads is only phase one.
After phase one, the real struggle for Syria begins. In the end, it's going to be literally about ownership. Whatever this president does on Syria, and I suspect he will do something, most likely, not direct attacks against leadership targets or military assets, not a no-fly zone, but probably the provision for the first time in two years of lethal assistance to rebel groups that are vetted or to the degree that we can vet them. And that is the lowest cost, lowest common denominator.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Do we know what intervention -- do we know what...
AMANPOUR: He's talking about arming the rebels. It's not brain surgery. There is a weapons embargo on Syria right now. That means the weight of the weapons superiority is on Assad's side. And it also means that the really bad guys, the al Qaeda-affiliated, the Jabhat al-Nusra who everybody is talking about, are getting their weapons, anyway.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Christiane, you're confident about the rebels...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: I'm not confident about anything, except that, as you know, this cannot continue.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: But have we learned the lessons Benghazi?
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: It's not the same.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: I don't believe it's the same thing. I know people are trying to draw that same lesson. And I also don't believe this business about ownership.
The United States did not break Syria. Therefore, the United States does not own Syria. Syria is broken. The United States has two choices and the West and Turkey and all the Arab countries.
You are either going to have a very, very, very long with tens of thousands more people killed, of you can potentially shorten this war by making it a fairer fight. If you don't want to get involved, which nobody wants to get involved, and I fully understand the United States has had enough of this.
But as you say the credibility also is on the line, and I will tell you why, because there's a real WMD issue with North Korea, with potentially with Iran. If they're looking at what the president of the United States of America, not some other leader around the world, the president of the United States of America is talking about a red line. The others are going to be watching.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: What about aerial strikes on presidential palaces? (CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Aaron said that's not in the cards right now.
HOLMES: Why not? That seems to make more sense to me than arming rebels.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: But if you're looking at securing chemical weapon sites, you cannot do that from the air. You can't just bomb these sites, isn't that right, Aaron? You need actual -- to physically take over these sites.
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: Let me push Christiane on this point, because if you want to change the arc of this crisis and empower the opposition and weaken the Assads, you are not going to be able to do it with the kinds of limited lethal assistance that we're prepared to provide to these opposition groups.
Christiane, if I took your point to its logical conclusion, what I would do is identify the fact that the overthrow of the Assads is a vital national interest.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: The president has said that. The president of the United States has said that.
MILLER: Fine. Then if that's the case, then I would craft a military strategy around that objective, which is essentially effective.
It wouldn't just be -- I'm not pushing for this, by the way, because I think going to war with Syria with no end state is a prescription for precisely Colin Powell's notion, you break it, you own it. No one is talking about boots on the ground, but the reality is, if we act..
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Aaron, you know that they did it in Kosovo; 78 days of bombing in Kosovo in 1999 forced Slobodan Milosevic, that other horrendous dictator who had committed genocide in the heart of Europe in the age of 24/7 satellite news, and nobody did anything about it for years.
Finally, the United States of America and Great Britain led a non-U.N. coalition of the willing really and they bombed the hell out of the positions of Slobodan Milosevic and, indeed, the heavy weapons and the already.
And the Kosovo Albanians, I stood on those borders and I watched hundreds of thousands of Kosovo Albanians leave, but they said, you know what? We're leaving, but we're going to come back because we know that we're going to come back when Slobodan Milosevic and his people have gone. And, today, Kosovo is free, independent, loves America, just struck a deal with Serbia, its mortal enemy. It is a success story.
COOPER: We have got to leave it there.
Aaron David Miller, it's good to have you on.
MILLER: Pleasure.
COOPER: Everyone, stick around.
Next, we're going to introduce the occupant of our fifth chair, talented actress, passionate activist who also has become crucially involved in the world of politics. We will talk about the one angle in the Boston bombings -- we will first of all get you up to date on the latest investigation out on the Boston bombing investigation.
Also, another angle that hasn't really been covered, those who say that the attack is evidence that America should back away from immigration reform. We will talk about it ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: You're looking a live shot there of lovely Auckland, New Zealand, where it's about quarter past 2:00 in the afternoon. Welcome to our viewers all over New Zealand and watching around the world and the United States.
Back home, any new developments in the Boston bombing story? The new lawyer for the surviving suspect, she's already exploring ways of sparing him from the death penalty if he's convicted. There are other less obvious connections to explore as well, including how this terrible attack has become part of the act over immigration reform.
Back with Christiane Amanpour, Jeffrey Toobin, Amy Holmes, and our fifth chair, welcome Eva Longoria. You know her from "Desperate Housewives," from her documentaries on Latinos in America. She was written a best-selling cookbook. She has a foundation. She's active in Democratic politics. The list goes on and on. She's a lady of many, many talents, to say the least.
We're very happy that she is here.
Where were you when you heard about the Boston bombings? What was your initial...
EVA LONGORIA, ACTRESS: Oh, gosh, where was I? I was home. And I couldn't believe it.
I was almost at the same place I was when I heard about 9/11.
COOPER: Really?
LONGORIA: Yes. And it was -- I couldn't believe my eyes. I have friends in Boston. So many actors are shooting movies in Boston right now. And I just thought this can't be true.
COOPER: Yes.
LONGORIA: Yes.
COOPER: There's so much now in the investigation.
I do want to bring in Joe Johns, who has the latest on the investigation.
Joe, first of all, a fingerprint apparently found on one of the explosive devices, what do we know?
JOE JOHNS, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's about all we know, Anderson, a fingerprint found on a fragment of one of the bombs, we believe.
And authorities have been trying to figure out whose fingerprint it is, a tantalizing clue, apparently. But they don't know. So, essentially, what they have done is gone around and tried to get fingerprint samples from a number of the individuals they have talked to, to try to either rule them in or rule them out. Either way, no more information on that, Anderson.
COOPER: Also, of course, yesterday, it reported female DNA found on the device. Unclear exactly whose DNA it is still.
Also, Joe, you have been reporting on moves by the attorney, by the new defense attorney to possibly try to get the death penalty off the table.
JOHNS: Absolutely.
But, right now, it's about the two sides making very preliminary contacts that happen at the beginning of any death penalty-eligible case. Each side wants something, we're told. The Justice Department, for example, wants to talk to this suspect to try to get more information. What does he know? When does he know it? Who did he meet with?
The defense team wants to get their guy a deal that takes the death penalty off the table, even though the Justice Department has not said either way whether it is going to pursue the death penalty. We're told preliminary talks have been under way. It's customary. Nobody is ready to make any deals. We're told the two sides have talked. The Justice Department says it's not accurate...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I want to bring in Jeff Toobin, senior legal analyst.
First of all, the attorney who they have hired, she had -- the list of clients she had, it's like rogues' gallery of despicable characters. TOOBIN: It is -- Judy Clarke is a legend. This woman is extraordinary. You look at the list of like the worst criminals of the last 20 years...
COOPER: The Unabomber, Susan Smith.
TOOBIN: The Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, Susan Smith of South Carolina, Moussaoui, the 9/11 figure, the guy who bombed the Atlanta Olympics, and of course Jared Loughner from Tucson and the Gabby Giffords shooting.
All of them killed multiple people. All of them did not receive the death penalty.
COOPER: So how does she do it, by getting them...
TOOBIN: It's two things, I think.
One is working with the government and figuring out the route to a deal that leads to life in prison, just negotiation. She is brilliant at that. The other thing, if negotiations fail, is to research the life of your client in such a way that a jury will not impose the death penalty.
You do the mitigation evidence, evidence that shows, yes, they're guilty of this crime. But you have to see them as a complete person. You have to see the influences that formed them. Those are the two general categories.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: One thing I read that she said, which fascinated me, is that her first step is having to convince her clients that they can have a life in prison, that there's a reason to live in a tiny cell for the rest of their lives and that's something that they should be aiming for. That's got to be a hard argument to make.
HOLMES: That was fascinating, and to get them to be willing to tell the truth. So I think in this case, with the younger brother who is in custody, hopefully, what this deal means is that they will be able to get more information from him.
COOPER: Would the U.S. government take that deal?
TOOBIN: I don't know. I think it's going to be a very tough call.
It will certainly be an Eric Holder decision. This is not going to be a decision made by the U.S. attorney or the line prosecutors. It is a very major decision by the Department of Justice whether you want to push this case all the way, given its horror and its heinousness, or do you want to make a deal that will make him a source of information about any possible co-conspirators.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Very hard decision.
AMANPOUR: I don't know how the procedure would work, but if he did not get the death penalty and he did get a life sentence, would we know much, much more about what all happened?
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: That's the great advantage that the defense has is that, if you don't make a deal, the source of information is cut off potentially forever. Also, and this is where speed is potentially an issue, is, while people are still out there, if they could make a deal now, he could potentially provide some information that could be acted upon.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I want to read out some things, because immigration reform is kind of the backdrop to this.
And you might not think they have anything to do with each other. Senator Marco Rubio in a press release says: "I disagree with those who say that the terrorist attack in Boston has no bearing on the immigration debate."
And now we're hearing from people in Washington saying, let's slow down on this immigration debate because of what has happened in Boston. Is that a concern of yours? You have been very out in front on immigration reform.
LONGORIA: Yes, it's a big concern.
And I think it's ironic that people are going to ignore the fact that immigration reform will actually make this country safer.
COOPER: How so?
LONGORIA: Well, the proposals that we're proposing, all of the border security measures that are in the proposals will guarantee a safer border.
And so, you know, in reflecting on it, it would actually make it safer. It's also -- I think the American people are a little smarter than using a horrible tragedy like this to think that there will be an increase in xenophobia of some sort. I think they know that -- I'm not saying it's separate. It's just very different issues.
AMANPOUR: Don't you think it is kind of separate? It's like apples and oranges.
LONGORIA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: On the one hand, you're talking about legal residents, Tsarnaev. One was a citizen. And there's always been the potential and has been crimes committed by legal residents.
LONGORIA: Yes. AMANPOUR: The troops is these people who are here in the shadows illegally.
(CROSSTALK)
LONGORIA: It's a completely different thing because also, if you do, if -- you can't state that this is the problem of immigration, because then you negate the Costa Rican immigrant, Carlos Arredondo, who actually went in and saved people.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: He was literally the first guy...
(CROSSTALK)
LONGORIA: Literally the first one running towards the...
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: And the guy who saved the carjacked...
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Was an immigrant. This is a typical American story. There are lot of immigrants.
COOPER: Senator John McCain actually agrees with you on this.
He said, "I would make an argument for immigration reform so that we can track people better who come into this country and track people who leave this country."
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Is that the really valid point, though?
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Isn't this just transparent politics?
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: I mean, doesn't -- this just an excuse for people who don't like Obama, who don't like this immigration bill anyway just to find a hook to find a hook to stall or prevent?
HOLMES: Hearing from John McCain and talking about, yes, national security is important, and with the Boston bombing, there are two additional students who overstayed their visas who have also been arrested and detained. So when Senator Rubio...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: From Kazakstan, I think.
HOLMES: From Kazakstan.
COOPER: And there's actually now an immigration...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Right. And I think the point is we ask our immigration system to do a lot.
This is an 844-page bill. Senator Rubio said let's take a pause and let's make sure that this bill does track entry and exit visa properly, because we saw that that hasn't been happening in this particular case. I'm for comprehensive reform.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: But I want the border security and entry-exit visa program to be tightened up, because in just this very case we now have two violations.
TOOBIN: Congress has been on a pause on immigration reform since 1986. There hasn't been an immigration bill.
So, the idea that a month delay, the only reason to delay this bill is to kill it, period.
(CROSSTALK)
LONGORIA: There's so much momentum behind it right now. And I know today, they were talking about the House is thinking about piecemealing it.
And I agree with you that it cannot be piecemealed, because the tenets of immigration reform are so overlapping, whether it's securing the border or a temporary guest-worker program or a pathway to citizenship and legalization. They are all intricately tied. So, I think it's very dangerous to talk about...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: And politically I think it needs to be done. And the hope in the Senate, from Mr. Rubio, Mr. McCain and Mr. Schumer...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: But you're saying pause?
HOLMES: What I'm saying is that we have this recess. There is a pause. It's happening right now. The senators and the congressmen are home listening to their constituents.
And when they come back, I think that they do need to address those concerns very forthrightly and directly, because it won't pass the House, if they don't.
AMANPOUR: Look, as sort of a semi-half-immigrant foreigner, it's really very important, this thing, obviously -- that's not brain surgery to say that.
But do you think that what looked like momentum building before this Boston thing, when all the politics came in, do you think that momentum is going to be slowed or do you guys still have the juice, as somebody asked President Obama today in a press conference, to keep pushing it?
LONGORIA: I think we do have the juice to keep pushing it.
I think when you do get bipartisan support like John McCain coming out and saying we're pushing forward, we have got to get this done, I think we have to hold onto that momentum. I think it's not only a moral imperative to do it. It's an economic imperative to our country. And so when you speak money or if you speak the economy, then people kind of go, yes, yes, this makes sense.
TOOBIN: And the Republican Party has to decide whether it wants to write off the fastest growing, most prosperous immigrant group, the way they have essentially written off black people -- 90 percent of black people vote across the Republican Party. Do they want 90 percent of Hispanics?
Who is their constituency? And that's where they're headed.
LONGORIA: For the country, it's a moral and economic imperative. For the Republicans, it's a political imperative.
AMANPOUR: But for the country, it's an existential dilemma. This is a nation of immigrants.
HOLMES: And, Christiane, in answer to your question about momentum, certainly, among conservatives, there is tremendous disagreement and tremendous battles. But just yesterday, a big huge GOP bundler, Paul Singer, he's gotten on board for comprehensive immigration reform. You're seeing conservatives really building momentum because they're aware of 2014.
(CROSSTALK)
LONGORIA: You see Steve Jobs' widow getting behind it.
HOLMES: And for the first time, you have the Chamber of Commerce and labor agreeing to work together on this.
COOPER: We have got to leave there. Joe Johns, appreciate your reporting.
Just ahead, two public acts of courage -- the pro athlete who broke a barrier by coming out as gay and the actress who is not hiding her mental illness. Jason Collins, Catherine Zeta-Jones, they both said they hope their honesty is going to help others. We will talk about the power and the cost of being in the public eye. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. You're looking at a live shot of Wrigley Field. The Cubs are losing. Sorry, Cubs fans.
In the last 48 hours, two public figures sacrificed their privacy by choice. NBA player Jason Collins has decided to go public with the fact that he's gay. And Longoria Catherine Zeta-Jones has announced she is back in a medical facility for treatment for bipolar disorder -- bipolar II disorder, facing head-on the kind of stigma that often comes with mental illness in this country. Very brave decisions.
We're going to be joined by Dr. Drew shortly just to talk about what bipolar disorder II is.
But you're somebody who obviously lives -- live in the public eye. To make that decision to confront something that you are wrestling with is -- I mean, it's all the more difficult -- it's hard for everybody, but for somebody in the public eye...
LONGORIA: Yes, I think sometimes we don't have a choice. You know? You're in the public eye, and I think it's better to get in front of it. So it's your words, and you come out and say, "This is what I'm doing."
I love that she says she's doing it proactively. And I applaud her because she is, you know, putting her health and taking responsibility for her health and really removing the stigma for anybody who has a mental illness. And especially now that mental illness is such a, you know, hot topic and being, you know, let's not talk about it; let's not deal with it. And she says, "I'm dealing with it head on."
COOPER: The fact that there is such a stigma, too, is extraordinary.
AMANPOUR: You know what's extraordinary, to your point? That the first time around, apparently, more people Googled the syndrome, the symptoms of bipolar, than did her name. So it was really something positive to people who latched onto the fact that she announced that she has bipolar.
TOOBIN: I mean, I -- we're going to hear from Drew about what it was, but I didn't know the difference between bipolar I and II.
COOPER: Let's bring Dr. Drew in. Dr. Drew, bipolar I and II, what is the difference? She says she has bipolar II, and that's what she's in treatment for.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN ANCHOR: Bipolar II, think of it just as a milder form of the condition.
But listen, guys, the way you're framing what Catherine Zeta- Jones here is exactly right. Anderson, you called it a public act of courage, and this is going to have untold benefits for thousands, maybe millions of people. This is an extraordinarily common condition. Her being hospitalized for this condition is really -- should be as matter-of-fact as a diabetic being hospitalized for their blood sugar.
TOOBIN: But Drew what is -- what is bipolar?
PINSKY: Bipolar disorder, an abnormal mood disorder where moods fluctuate from very, very high to very, very low in a varied degree of different kinds of time pattern.
TOOBIN: So there's manic episodes...
PINSKY: Manic episodes. True mania is bipolar I, where people are really disconnected from reality and can think they're somebody else and throw their clothing off. That's not what Catherine Zeta- Jones has.
She has bipolar II, which is associated with what's called hypo- mania, where people may be irritable, angry, hyper-expressive, hyper- sexual, not getting much sleep, seem to have lots of energy but it's not a normal state. And actually, what a lot of people don't realize, just to point out, people are actually -- with bipolar are more likely to kill themselves in a manic state or hypo-manic state than in a depressed state. People think about depression as being a dangerous illness. And of course, these people fluctuate between low moods and high moods.
HOLMES: And Dr. Drew, isn't it also the case that with bipolar II, that you see sort of self-medicating that also can exacerbate the problem?
PINSKY: Listen, anything -- stress can exacerbate. Changes at -- some people are very brittle with their bipolar disorder, and changes in their appetite, in their eating patterns.
COOPER: She was diagnosed when she was 41. Is that -- is it something that develops later in life?
PINSKY: No.
COOPER: Or something that she wrestled with and didn't realize.
PINSKY: Absolutely. Something that comes on typically in young adulthood, and people often don't realize they have it. It's more commonly diagnosed.
And again, people are identifying these things more readily and coming to help more readily. I was just so proud of the way she's handled this. She's dealing with it in a very matter-of-fact way. I wish they would call the medical facility what it is, a psychiatric hospital, if indeed, she's having her bipolar treated.
But fine, I mean, she's, you know, after all, doesn't have to tell us anything. The fact that she's dealing with it in a matter-of- fact way and dealing with it in a medical condition, a medical treatment, is to be commended.
AMANPOUR: Dr. Drew talked about stress and how it's brought on. Obviously, you know, she went through her husband, Michael Douglas, being diagnosed and having throat cancer and all that, you know, dreadful stress and would he survive, would he not. People who know her say indeed that she's a great mother. You've worked with her.
LONGORIA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: She's a great mother. They're a great couple and really an example.
COOPER: And again, I mean, in the same time, really in the same day as we have Jason Collins's decision to come forward, a decision he didn't have to make for any other reason. He wasn't being outed; he wasn't being pushed into it by some magazine, as I think...
AMANPOUR: Billy Jean King said yesterday. Yes.
COOPER: You know, even Martina Navratilova. You know, the world of basketball pretty well. What do you think the fans' reaction is going to be? What do you think the team's reaction?
LONGORIA: So far, we've seen the reaction has been completely positive. And I think the ripple effect that it's going to have is -- is exponential in creating tolerance among people regarding the sports culture and homophobia in it. When you have Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade and Shaquille O'Neal saying, "Bravo, and you're so courageous, and we stand behind you and we stand with you." You know that kids look up to these guys, and they're role models.
COOPER: You know, sports arenas are -- can be pretty tough places. And he's a free agent now, but say he gets picked up by another team. That first time he goes on the court, that's going to be really fascinating to see.
LONGORIA: I pray -- I pray that he gets picked up. Because people -- the big thing is that he's an active player.
COOPER: Right.
LONGORIA: He is a free agent.
TOOBIN: At this point, he's going to be a draw, I mean, you know, to be pretty cynical. I think, you know, somebody is going to want him on his team, because people are going to want to see this guy. They want to see -- I mean, he's now a big celebrity.
And I actually think -- yes, I don't want to be too cynical and suggest that he's done this to extend his career. But I think he probably has extended his career.
LONGORIA: I saw it the opposite way where sometimes, like, a Tim Tebow who is a very polarizing figure. And it's hard to for him to get a team, because people go "I don't want to deal with that."
TOOBIN: Can I ask you? Do -- did you know -- you were around the spurs for a long time, did you see any gay players?
LONGORIA: No, I did not. And the Spurs are one of the most well-run teams in the league.
(CROSSTALK)
LONGORIA: And you know, the Spurs are one of the most well-run teams in the league. Probably just an amazing human being, so I wouldn't...
COOPER: What's amazing to me about Jason Collins, though, and, Drew, I mean, you can weigh in on this, at well, is that he's what? Thirty-four years old, I think? And I mean, he said he doesn't really know many gay people. He was -- it wasn't even like he had partners that he was trying to, you know, keep out of the public eye. He was alone. He would say he would go back to his own and pet his German shepherd. It is really sad that it's taken him this long. People under the age of 34 look at us having this conversation say so what? And this poor man didn't -- couldn't have a normal love relationship because he was afraid of this? Come on, now. Let's get with it.
AMANPOUR: On the other hand, as we know, young teens and young adolescents, we've seen them being bullied into suicide.
COOPER: It is amazing, the difference. I mean, in my -- I'm 45 or 46. I came out in high school. But you meet young kids today, and they're just not the same -- they're just -- it's just completely different.
AMANPOUR: What's even more different, in Israel, they are being, you know, openly gay in every -- in every way.
COOPER: In the military for a long time.
AMANPOUR: Not just that in...
LONGORIA: ... in the sports culture. So you may think young people are very tolerant, and they'll come out and it will be a little easier for him. But not if they're -- if you're a 16-year-old gay basketball player right now, I'm sure you're looking at Jason Collins.
COOPER: It also depends on economics and also depends on racial issues. I mean, it depends on, you know, if you're joined, you know, culturally. If you're in a church community. Really advanced.
I interviewed Robin Rogers, 25 years old, an American soccer player playing in England, who came out but felt he had to drop off the team and retire when he came out. Hopefully, he's thinking about going back.
HOLMES: You know, I have a question for you. As, you know, our residents talk to the expert, is it -- is it difficult, though, to control that zone of privacy? Jason Collins has said, "I've come out, but I'm going to be a private person. I'm not going to talk about my life."
Catherine Zeta-Jones, she's going to treat her bipolar, but she wants that to be the end of the story. Do you think that they'll be successful? LONGORIA: I hope so. And I hope that we're respectful of it as the public, you know. I know we're going to -- we're going to be talking about this in the next segment, but when you live in the public eye, public opinion matters. It matters in my industry. You need to like me in order to go see my movie. I need to depend on you to like me, because sometimes we walk that fine line of privacy and being completely open so that you still like me.
And I think they're doing a very good job of it, because if you give people the truth and you say, "This is what's happening," then there's less of a bounty for gossip. And I see...
TOOBIN: Is that true? Or do you just feed the beast? I mean, if you give people a little, do you make people interested? And then, you know, want to pursue you more? Or do you keep people...
COOPER: I think in Jason Collins's case...
TOOBIN: Yes.
COOPER: ... what you do is you take away the gotcha. You take away this thing of, "Well, he was seen with a guy," and therefore it's a -- they've got this photograph; there's something illicit about it.
TOOBIN: You and you, you were famous before. And so you have to make the decision, do you want to...
COOPER: For me, it was a decision of, you know, do I want my partner to be subjected to this? Do I want -- do I want mainstream magazines to be covering who I'm seeing or, you know, do I just keep it with some sleazy, you know, Internet sites? And, you know, those are decisions you have to make.
And for me, ultimately, it was the decision of, you know what? What's more important is, A, that I'm comfortable and happy and that I send a message that -- that people who are gay can be comfortable and happy and successful. And I don't want to send a negative message. And so for me, that's what overrode any personal inconvenience in life.
But it's actually -- and my message to him is I think it just -- it makes your life that much better. I mean, I came out of high school. My friends and my family, everybody at work always knew. But it just -- it takes away that sort of a "gotcha" feeling. If I'm out with my partner now, people aren't looking at me like, oh, you're doing -- you don't want to be seen here, whereas they know it's -- I'm fine.
TOOBIN: Apparently, being gay now, you now can't keep track of how old you are? What did you just say, like, "I'm 45..."
COOPER: I'm going to be 46 in June. I'm a little -- I'm a little sensitive about it. Completely not the point.
TOOBIN: I can tell, though, in the way you're sort of hanging onto 45 there. I'm 52, but I'm going to be 53 in a couple weeks. COOPER: Oh, you know.
TOOBIN: That's very bad.
COOPER: Forty-six, it's no longer even mid-40s.
LONGORIA: Right.
COOPER: I'm now on the downward...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Listen, we've still got a lot to talk about. Amanda Knox has a new book out about her ordeal. And she's speaking out for the first time. The American exchange student spent four years in an Italian prison for the murder of her roommate. Her conviction was overturned, but now she faces another Italian courtroom. We'll talk about that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. With our special -- we're just talking about how I'm basically blind.
HUGHES: And 40.
COOPER: There you go.
Speaking of the American exchange student who spent years in an Italian prison for the murder of her roommate before an appeals court reversed her conviction. She's got a new book that's out today. She's doing interviews for the first time. She spoke with Diane sawyer over at ABC about her ordeal. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANDA KNOX, SPENT FOUR YEARS IN ITALIAN PRISON: I was in the courtroom when they were calling me a devil. I mean, it's one thing to be called certain things in the media and then it's another thing to be sitting in a courtroom fighting for your life while people are calling you a devil. For all intents and purposes, I was a murderer. Whether I was or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Jeff, as far as legally, what is she facing now? Because the whole process in Italy is very different than it is in the United States.
TOOBIN: Right. The short version is there's going to be another trial. And she has to decide whether she's going to go back or not. It seems quite clear to me that she's not going to go back.
COOPER: She says in an interview to the "USA Today" that she wants to go back. Her lawyers are saying there's no way she's going back.
TOOBIN: Yes. So if she doesn't go back, she will still be tried anyway. She'll be tried in absentia. If she's acquitted, she's acquitted. If she's convicted, then there is at least the possibility that Italy would move to extradite her from the United States. That is an incredibly complex legal proceeding. It is theoretically possible that she could be extradited to Italy. I think it's unlikely.
So if I were her lawyer, I would say, "Stay in Seattle."
COOPER: The evidence itself is not -- it's not there...
TOOBIN: Well...
LONGORIA: What I don't understand is why would Italy do this? What? Do they have evidence? Is there somebody with a break-through? Why would they do this?
TOOBIN: Their legal system is not a hundred percent different from ours in the sense that we have trials. And sometimes, appeals courts overturn those results. And sometimes, the next level of appeals court overturns that level.
And so it's...
HUGHES: Why do you want to spend the money on retrying her?
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: And so...
AMANPOUR: I so don't want to talk about this story. I so have not been following it. But...
COOPER: What? What?
AMANPOUR: What happens in Italy is that there is a three-tier system, and it's very different from the United States of America. An Italian legal case, whether you're a pick pocket or a mass murderer, all are afforded an appeal automatically. If you file an appeal, they'll hear it. No case leaves Italy until Italy's high court, the third level, signs off. Now the reason that's what's happened.
TOOBIN: That's right. But that's not -- we have three levels in the federal courts. We have district courts. We have circuit courts. We have the Supreme Court.
AMANPOUR: I've got to say it works nicely for them.
TOOBIN: Well, it's -- it's not a famously official...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Not for Amanda Knox.
TOOBIN: But I think, you know, she's got her $4 million book deal. She's in a great deal of money. She should stay in Seattle, build her life in the United States, let her lawyers worry about this case. But don't go back.
COOPER: But you know, the thing about her right now -- and it can relate to what we're talking about, kind of public lives and private lives -- is that this is a person who, she's become famous, but she doesn't have -- I guess now with the book deal, she has some money.
But I think the first thing would be to be famous and not have some -- something in the bank that helps you have some level of protection against your thing. Because you have notoriety, and you go to the Starbucks and people are taking pictures of you and pointing at you.
LONGORIA: But the notoriety is tainted.
COOPER: Yes. It affects you the rest of your life.
LONGORIA: She will never have a normal life in Seattle. I mean, just by...
COOPER: Could she go for a job interview at some company, and they'd be like, "Oh, yes, Amanda Knox. We'd love to have you"?
TOOBIN: This is the difference between sort of modern celebrity and earlier celebrity. I mean, earlier celebrity was based on sort of accomplishments. People were singers. They were actors. They were -- they had some skill and then became famous.
Now, we have a whole category of celebrities, I think largely generated by reality television, of people who have no skill, who have no talent. And the Kardashian variety...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: What's the difference in the notoriety of the celebrity?
HOLMES: You know, I wonder, Oscar Wilde's old maxim, that no publicity is bad publicity and vice versa. I mean, that doesn't...
COOPER: He went to jail, by the way.
HOLMES: You know. But, you know, if someone has thick skin and if they're clever, can they turn that notoriety...
LONGORIA: She does not -- it's very clear she's does not have thick skin. Today, the "USA Today," the article, she's contemplating suicide.
COOPER: Right.
LONGORIA: And people forget, the center of these public things, whether you're Catherine Zeta-Jones or Jason and Amanda Knox, there's a human being affected by this.
COOPER: It's so important, because I do think in this world of Twitter that we all exist in, and I read it. You know, I follow Twitter every day. It's so easy to forget that people are -- people are human beings. And she's -- she's, you know, a young person. We were all young once and remember what it was like. And it would be brutal to have your name dragged through papers like that for years, to have your life taken over like this.
TOOBIN: Wait.
COOPER: My mom often has this saying, which is be kind, because everybody you meet is fighting a great battle. And I do think it's not -- I think Plato originally said -- I'm not sure -- but I think there's something to that. I think, like, there's such meanness out there now.
LONGORIA: Yes.
COOPER: That, you know, we can just take a step back and kind of be kind to her.
TOOBIN: I agree. Unless she killed that guy [SIC]. I mean, that's also, I mean...
COOPER: But the evidence, I mean, a lot of the evidence didn't seem to hold up.
TOOBIN: I don't know. I have to say I have some expertise in this case but not encyclopedic knowledge. As far as I can tell, she's probably not guilty. But, you know, they didn't pick her name out of the phone book as a suspect either. I mean, this -- there is a possibility she's guilty.
COOPER: But a lot of the reason it seems like she was selected with -- along with her sort of boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, was that this Italian prosecutor kind of had a gut feeling. And he's talked about this gut feeling, and he saw them canoodling. And it became a...
TOOBIN: And there is someone already in prison. So, so, look, there are -- it's a problematic case. But there was a murder case against her, and we now know...
COOPER: And we should point out a lot of people in Italy still believes that she's guilty. The parents of Meredith Kercher, who was killed, also still believe she's guilty.
I just want to play one of the things she said to Diane Sawyer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KNOX: There was a certain point in my -- in my thinking in prison that, if it didn't work out and I never was free again, I was trying to figure out how I could ask them to move on with their life without me. Because I was tired of them having to sacrifice everything for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: She's talking about -- talking about her parents there and her relationship.
AMANPOUR: Which we have to say, we didn't discuss this, but the president discussed this in his press conference. This sort of idea of never being able to get it. Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, right now is a massive, massive scandal, what's going on there. More than 100 prisoners are on hunger strike, literally painfully force-fed tubes down their nose. At least 30 or so of them. And you know, a lot of them are being treated to be transferred to other countries. And this is a situation where people are literally contemplating suicide, because there's no exit. Nobody comes in; nobody goes out.
COOPER: Have there have been any successful prosecutions?
TOOBIN: There have been a handful, but there is this category of prison which is there is not enough evidence to have a military tribunal. Not enough evidence to prove that they are in al-Qaeda. And, at the same time, the government has enough evidence to believe they are dangerous. So what do you do with these people? And that's the category.
And today in his press conference -- today in his press conference, the president said you know, we can't just keep this place open indefinitely, but he's never really addressed what you do with that category of prisoner. Because that's many...
AMANPOUR: It's not just those. There are 86 who have been cleared to go.
HUGHES: At least 27 percent of releasees go back to terrorist activities. I'm sure that's weighing on the president. And among -- there were 156 detainees at Gitmo. Eighty-six of them are cleared for release, but there are no countries that will take them.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Yemen, but Yemen's in chaos.
AMANPOUR: And Diane Feinstein has asked the White House to really examine this and do something to let to help these 86 go where they're meant to go.
COOPER: We've got to take a break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. We're with Eva Longoria.
Tell me a little bit about your foundation, the Eva Longoria Foundation.
LONGORIA: Yes. Well, I started my foundation a couple years ago to focus on Latina education, Latinos being the biggest growing demographic in the United States. We have the lowest educational attainment, so this is going to be the future work force of our country. We have to make sure that we, you know, bridge that educational gap.
And so my foundation focuses on programs to help the women in my community reach their fullest educational potential and then also transition them into entrepreneurial programs, if they wish to start a business.
COOPER: You're a great example. You're getting your master's?
LONGORIA: Yes, I graduate in two weeks.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You have exams?
LONGORIA: I just finished writing my thesis.
COOPER: Well, I appreciate you taking off studying. It's great to have you on.
LONGORIA: Thank you.
COOPER: Christiane Amanpour, as well. Jeff Toobin, Amy Holmes.
Join us again tomorrow night. We'll be doing the same thing at the same table. We have a special guest. We'll tell you who it is then.
We're going to leave you with a look at the days -- the day in pictures in about 60 seconds. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The king, parade.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These incredible high-resolution pictures taken from a NASA spacecraft show an enormous hurricane raging on Saturn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On day six of that deadly building collapse in Bangladesh, hundreds of garment factory workers clash with the police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Incredible. Some people call this chandelier and ice. Listen to this ice just cracking. And you can see it splintering there right along the coastline in Minnesota.
(EXPLOSION)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
