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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Cleveland Kidnap Suspect Stopped by Police in 2008; Jodi Arias Found Guilty of First-Degree Murder
Aired May 08, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks.
Good evening, everyone. We are live again tonight in Cleveland. There is a lot to report here in the story that has stunned the people who live along this street, Seymour Avenue. There's also of course a verdict tonight in the Jodi Arias trial. She's found guilty of first- degree murder. Jurors did not buy her claim of self-defense. Now her lawyers are preparing to fight for her life. We'll have more on that ahead in the hour.
But we begin, though, with the breaking news. Authorities have just released a dispatch call that sent police to the house behind me, 2207 Seymour Avenue, on Monday after 911 call from Amanda Berry herself. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a call-tick on the phone with a female who says her name is Amanda Berry, and that she had been kidnapped 10 years ago. She's at this location now. The code one, the CAD is 0149-0149.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Copy. Is she still on the line or has she hang up?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She still is on the phone right now. She is saying that the male is Ariel Castro, 52-year-old Hispanic male that lives at 2207 Seymour, and that he's been holding her here for 10 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about the others in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 7266.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Georgina DeJesus might be in this house also per --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found them. We found them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Copy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, send us EMS here. We've got a female (INAUDIBLE). She's got a young child with her. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Make it two. We also have a Michele Knight in the house. I don't know if you want to look that up in radio -- in the system. Thirty-two years old.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Also tonight, this video shot just today, the Cleveland Justice Center, of Ariel Castro, the owner of the house who is charged today with four counts of kidnapping and three counts of rape. Police say they will not charge his brothers in the case. There are also many new details tonight about what was found inside that house right over there, inside Castro's house. And what the last 10 years were like for Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michele Knight.
Today also had so much needed joy in it. Two of the women, Berry and DeJesus went home. Berry's 6-year-old daughter is well.
CNN's Pamela Brown joins me now with more on how all three women are doing.
First of all, you're learning new details about some of what they went through.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Anderson. We are learning that according to sources that Ariel Castro would actually test the girls, pretend like he was leaving the home, and then wait and see if they attempted to flee, and if they did even attempt to flee, he would discipline them. So he instilled fear in them and created a situation where they never wanted to flee.
But we have learned from sources, Anderson, that Monday was the first opportunity for anyone to escape, that Amanda Berry somehow knew he had left the home, and she had hit her breaking point. She took that as an opportunity to cry for help. But what's interesting to note here is that the other two women didn't leave the home. That they could have left but they chose to stay behind --
COOPER: When Amanda Berry was outside.
BROWN: When Amanda Berry was outside, when she ran outside the home, the other two women stayed behind, and that's indicating that they weren't bound, but that they were afraid to leave, reflecting their state of mind, that they were fearful, especially in light of how he would test them before. And also --
COOPER: And this is information coming from sources, from --
BROWN: From law enforcement --
COOPER: Law enforcement sources.
BROWN: Yes.
COOPER: OK.
BROWN: Yes. And that essentially they -- these women had accepted this to be the reality. That they had succumbed to this. They thought this was their life and had Amanda Berry not asked for help and not escaped, this could still very well be their reality.
COOPER: Which is similar to what we have heard from other people who have been held in similar circumstances even for a short time, that people kind of adapted to their situation, and start to kind of accept this as the reality that they're facing.
What else have you learned about how the women were held in there? What did they actually -- did they all live together?
BROWN: Well, Anderson, we've learned that they actually were kept apart for most of the time. That they were kept in separate rooms. That -- but that they did interact and that they, quote, "relied on each other for survival." That's coming from a law enforcement source. That these women, even though they were kept apart a lot, that they still helped support each other, and that they were really in survival mode.
COOPER: Were they ever outside?
BROWN: We've -- all we know is that according to officials earlier today, they said there is no indication that they were outside but that they had actually -- that Castro put them in the garage on a couple of occasions in disguise, and according to sources, that is likely because he had someone coming to his home and he wanted them to be gone.
And we've heard that one of his band members visited the home and said that the band member didn't suspect anything out of the norm. So perhaps at that time the girls were in the garage.
COOPER: We have heard a lot of times that people who would kind of come to the house, he wouldn't let them in the house, he would talk to them outside which is a couple of people found unusual but they never really thought much about it. But you're saying they would occasionally be put inside the garage.
BROWN: They would -- they would -- we don't know the extent of the disguise, but essentially he took -- he went to great lengths to make sure that their identity was hidden. He would put them in the garage, at least a couple of occasions. That's all we know right now. And according to a source that is likely because he wanted them gone if he had someone over to his house.
COOPER: OK. Pamela, appreciate the update. Thanks very much.
And again, there is still a lot we don't know about what went on for the 10 -year period, it is an enormous amount of time. Investigators have been interviewing the women starting last night, we understand, and today as well. Since Monday, the house behind me has been giving up its secrets, remains an active crime scene. The investigation is moving forward.
Today the police chief said that more than 200 items had been taken from the house. Last night when we hear -- we saw FBI investigators taking items out of the house. We know that ropes and chains are among those items. Exactly their location, what they were used for, we don't know. According to Cleveland's Public Safety director, though, they were found. They also have said no human remains have been found at the site.
Joining me now is Cleveland City Councilman Brian Cummins.
Thanks so much for being with us. I appreciate it. What else have you heard about the investigation? What can you say?
BRIAN CUMMINS, CLEVELAND CITY COUNCIL: Well, I just actually found out an hour ago that apparently a report of the incident has been leaked. I've not been able to read the report. I don't have a copy of it. But from what I gather from talking to the source, you know, there's some things that have been clarified in that report that we have actually been hearing from confidential sources within -- I guess I'd call it the official -- some of the official employees that have dealt with the victims, particularly once they were saved and then in transport to the hospital.
So I think a lot of it deals with, you know, the conditions. I know the miscarriages have come up and the rumors.
COOPER: Right.
CUMMINS: It is apparently been confirmed that there were multiple miscarriages. That the physical duress that they were put under actually caused the aborted -- abortion of children. You know --
COOPER: There --
(CROSSTALK)
CUMMINS: Pretty gruesome and pretty savage.
COOPER: Local media had been reporting that based on -- local law enforcement sources they had yesterday.
CUMMINS: Yes.
COOPER: Are you -- where is that information coming from that you have now?
CUMMINS: I've been -- I've been told by a source that I have that actually has a copy of the report.
COOPER: OK.
CUMMINS: That some of this type of information, in fact, is contained within the report. Very graphic and detailed information.
COOPER: I believe earlier in the day you had also said something about the birth of Amanda Berry's child. The circumstances of it.
CUMMINS: Well, we know -- we know from several sources that Michele Knight was forced to assist with that birth. That it ostensibly occurred within a small pool of some sort. And that -- and that Miss Knight was actually threatened with her life relative to the success of that birth.
COOPER: That if Amanda Berry's child was not born -- born alive --
CUMMINS: That's what I understand.
COOPER: That Michele Knight would suffer.
CUMMINS: Yes, yes. So it's -- we -- this is our worst fears, you know, 24, 36 hours ago, relative to only imagining the horrors and the savagery of the mental and physical duress that they must have been put under.
COOPER: There has been -- you know, you talk to people in the neighborhood and there was some criticism of what they say maybe have been missed opportunities. Do you find that or do you find that to be not the case.
(CROSSTALK)
CUMMINS: No, I really -- I really question it. We all question why it's taken this long. To find them. And for them to escape, et cetera. A few things I could point out on the physical aspects of this layout here.
COOPER: Right.
CUMMINS: These two properties that are before that crime scene, they have been vacant for a long time.
COOPER: And they're boarded up, as well. So actually --
CUMMINS: Yes.
COOPER: Because when you first hear that this guy's windows were boarded up on the ground floor, it sounds very unusual, but when you see the two houses next to it --
CUMMINS: Yes.
COOPER: -- are also boarded up. It's sort of --
CUMMINS: Well, several things on that. First of all, the physical aspect. So you've got the west side of this property that basically has not been looked at because there is nobody there. You've got the back of the property. This is a company that's next to us here. The back of their parking lot extends to the back of that victim -- that victim's house. So you basically had both the south and the west view of that property not really a view to the public or individuals. And that -- the property -- the parking lot, the very back of the parking lot probably not used that much. So that's pretty logical, relative to difficulty and people seeing that. That it's kind of covered from the -- both the west and the south. In terms of the complaints, we have a very robust police dispatch system. When calls come in, they're logged in. Could there be human error, sure. But we've used -- I've used as a counselor that log-in and that call information in -- to confirm calls about or to or from addresses. I'm confident in the police's abilities when they confirm that there's only been two or three calls from or about that address.
COOPER: Right.
CUMMINS: The problem with that is, people may have called. If they didn't give the address, if they didn't give proper information, it would have been logged correctly. So we run into this all of the time. When residents call about issues, but if they're not using commonsense protocol and communications, it won't get recorded.
COOPER: Yes. I see.
CUMMINS: So, you know, and not only that, we did extensive door- knocking, just the street and the next street over. We placed a drug and alcohol dependency residency program just within the last year. Had opposition from some of the community members. We actually ran into Onil Castro during that time. He just lives two blocks from here. We saw how inebriated he was.
So the reports that we're getting now, that the two brothers had nothing to do with it, in his case, he was so screwed up and so badly an alcoholic that it's no -- surprise to me. But based on that, I can tell you, we have evicted squatters from a vacant house two blocks from here. I have personally seen a half-dressed clad, you know, woman, likely a prostitute, coming from a squatter's home. So these various reports --
COOPER: Of the naked person in the backyard?
CUMMINS: Yes, it's -- they're believable relative to potential drug and prostitution issues.
COOPER: Right.
CUMMINS: That we've had issues with.
COOPER: OK.
CUMMINS: But that would be my comment on that.
COOPER: Councilman, appreciate your time. Thank you very much, Councilman Brian Cummins.
Let us know what you think. You can follow me on Twitter @Andersoncooper.
Again, we're still trying to piece together as much information as we can and as respectfully as we can. We don't want to do anything that, you know, directly affects these women and their recovery. We have always known that the more than one person heard Amanda Berry's cries for help on Monday and responded. Charles Ramsey, you heard him on the program yesterday, he was talking about his neighbor who he saw running toward the house first and that's what made him respond. Now another brave neighbor is going to give his version of what went down, the man who Charles Berry (sic) saw running across the street. And somewhat contradicts what Charles Berry (sic) is saying. You'll hear from him directly.
Also ahead, after countless twists and turns and testimony the Jodi Arias trial is over. The jury delivered its verdict today to cheers and tears.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: As we said earlier today, two of the three women who were found inside the house behind me, imprisoned inside 2207 Seymour Avenue, went home. Late this morning, Amanda Berry arrived at her sister's home escorted by authorities in a van that pulled up behind the house. Well wishers from neighborhood cheered from the street.
Berry was missing for a decade. She gave birth, as you know, to a child inside the house, that child, a daughter, is now 6 years old. A few hours later, Gina DeJesus was greeted by a large and enthusiastic crowd outside the home that she had not stepped foot in since 2004, the year she went missing.
Hard to imagine what that moment was like. Gina was just 14 years old when she vanished, she's now 23. She and Amanda Berry and a third woman, Michele Knight, disappeared from the same street, Lorain Avenue, about three miles from the location we're in right now.
And this is the new video of the man accused of abducting them, holding them captive, Ariel Castro, at the Cleveland Justice Center today. He is facing four counts of kidnapping, three counts of rape. His two brothers will not be charged in the case.
Ariel Castro has been stopped by the police in the past. CNN's Martin Savidge has obtained video of him being grilled by an officer back in 2008. Martin joins me now.
So what do we know about this?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Anderson. Yes, let me set it up a bit before we roll the video. This is going to be dash cam video that you're looking at. It is coming from a now retired Cleveland professor and it's Ariel Castro that he pulls over. OK. So let's roll the videotape and I'll tell you a bit about it as it rolls.
It is a little after 8:30 p.m., it's Thursday, June 12th, it's 2008. The officer is Jim Simone and he's on patrol, and he notices that a motorcycle whizzes past. What he sees is the license plate tilted sideways. He knows that's an old trick by some riders if they don't want the plate seen. So he pulls the rider over. It's Ariel Castro. He doesn't know it yet. He pulls him over in the gas station.
Now before you listen to the sound here, I want you to take into account, remember, Castro seems pretty nervous. The women have already been abducted, according to our authorities, are being held in the home, and the young child has already been born. He knows all of this. And he's confronted by police. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see your driver's license. Your driver's license, please.
ARIEL CASTRO, SUSPECT: What's wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First off, your plate is improperly displayed. It has to be displayed left to right, not upside down or sideways. And the other question is, why are you riding it then? You don't have a helmet on, you don't have a license to operate it. And you subject yourself to being arrested. Is that what you want?
CASTRO: No, sir, I don't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: And he doesn't want to be arrested. And I'll tell you why. Because there's a couple of things that have gone wrong. Doesn't have a motorcycle driver's license and the plates on the bike don't belong to that bike. He could have been arrested by the police officer. But Castro made one plea and he said, look, I'm a Cleveland school bus driver. The police officer said, OK, I'll give you a break. He wrote him two tickets, but he let him go.
COOPER: What does the police officer think now? I mean, I can't imagine.
SAVIDGE: Yes. Well, he thinks much. He says, you know, that really haunts him. But here's what he says. And not in the way you might think. If he had arrested Castro, he says no one would have been in that home to look after the women that were there. No one would have been there to provide food, to provide water. They could have been chained up. He would have been locked up and a little baby less than a year old suffering, all of them.
So he actually feels pretty good that he let him go. But he was also an officer actively involved in the search to find those women. I mean, a real mix.
COOPER: Amazing that he still had the dash cam video, as well.
SAVIDGE: Yes. If you know him, he keeps a lot of them.
(CROSSTALK)
SAVIDGE: Yes.
COOPER: It's great, Martin. I appreciated that very much.
The story still unfolding here in west Cleveland. It broke open on Monday when Amanda Berry decided to break free with her daughter. Screamed for help from the front door of that house behind me. But one of the men who heard her and helped her escape was Charles Ramsey, you know that, a neighbor. We heard from him yesterday on the program.
Well, today Cleveland's police chief says Ramsey is the key to breaking open this case and deserves a reward. As I mentioned, I talked to Ramsey last night. He made it clear that he wasn't the first person to hear Berry's cry for help. He actually said he saw a neighbor from across the street running toward the house and that's what also got his attention. Another neighbor was already on the scene. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES RAMSEY, HELPED AMANDA BERRY ESCAPED: Heard that girl scream and saw him running across the street. And I went outside and wondered what he was doing. And Amanda said, I'm stuck in here, help get me out. So he -- either don't know English that well or panicked. He just looked at me and was like -- he said, "girl." And that's all he did, so here I come with my, you know, half-eaten Big Mac. And I look and I say, "What's up?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The other man was Angel Cordero, he doesn't speak English but he did realize that something was very, very wrong, and tonight CNN Espanol Maria Santana has more on the role that he played in Monday's rescue.
You talked to Angel.
MARIA SANTANA, CNN ESPANOL: I did. I spoke to him today. And Angel Cordero, Anderson, he's not a stranger to this block. For the past eight years, he has visited the house directly across the street from Ariel Castro's house where his good friends live. He eats most of his meals there. And he says Monday night he was doing the usual thing, having dinner, when he heard screams coming from the house across the street, and this, Anderson, is what he told me earlier happens next. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGEL CORDERO, HELPED RESCUE AMANDA BERRY (Through Translator): I looked towards the front door of the house where the kidnapping was. I saw that woman screaming, asking for help. She couldn't open the door. I looked over, I crossed the street and I went to ask her if the house was on fire. She told me no, that I've been kidnapped for 10 years.
And so I pulled the door, but it was locked with a chain. And so I tried to open the door, but I couldn't. So I had to give it a few kicks. If you see, the house has two doors. She opened the inside door, but the glass door, the one on the outside, that's the one that had the chain and so when I tried to open the door, it had the chain and so I couldn't open it, and I kicked it. Several kicks underneath and she managed to escape from underneath the door, and when she managed to escape from underneath the door, she remembered the little girl and she went back inside the house. She took the girl and came out. When she came out with the girl, I said, "Let's get out of here because if that guy arrives, he's going to kill us. If he finds me here, he's going to kill me. He'll kill you."
She crossed the street and came to this lady's house and she used the phone. If that woman didn't manage to come out to the front door, that kidnapping would have continued for years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Angel also spoke to you about his interaction with the little girl, the 6-year-old girl.
SANTANA: He did. He gave me a lot of insight into the state of mind of this little girl. He said last -- as you heard that he -- Amanda Berry ran back into the house when she remembered her little girl, but that they were both hysterical, crying. The little girl was very scared, very agitated.
He said that he was actually trying to calm her down while Amanda Berry was making the 911 call, and he said that he -- it was obvious to him that this little girl had not been around a lot of people, that she had probably not even been around a lot of traffic, a lot of commotion. So she was very scared.
He also said to me that the little girl ran out of the house in what he called a diaper. Only wearing a diaper and a very sullied shirt. So it's incredible that he says, you know, a diaper, and she was 6 years old so --
COOPER: Does this contradict what Charles Ramsey said? Because Ramsey did say to me he saw -- he saw this man running across the street and that's what got his attention. I mean, do their stories jive?
SANTANA: They do not at all, Anderson. And I need -- I have to tell you that Angel Cordero as well as Altagracia Tejeda (ph) who owns the house across the street from Ariel Castro, they strongly dispute what Charles Ramsey is saying. They are saying that he actually only showed up after Amanda Berry was already out of the house, after she was already making the 911 call, that he kind of peeked into the house when the commotion was going on. And tried to call -- the police himself.
But that they told him, well, she is already on the phone with the police. So, you know, I don't -- they deny claim to me why they think he might be saying this. But they definitely -- I mean, the woman who owns the house actually called him a liar. She said he is lying. This is not -- this did not happen this way.
COOPER: It's actually what some people -- I talked to -- I guess her daughter, maybe, the woman who owns the house across the street the night it happened. And she also said there's people outside saying that they helped. I guess she was referring to Charles. Again, hard to know exactly what went on.
SANTANA: Right.
COOPER: And everybody has a different perception of things. But certainly Angel Cordero deserves a lot of recognition for being involved.
SANTANA: And then this family, I mean, they told me, we're not looking for any recognition or to be in the media. It was very hard for me to even speak to him. He didn't want to speak to me. But he said we're just happy that we were able to help and that they're home and that they're home with their families and they're alive.
COOPER: Yes. Appreciate it. Great interview.
SANTANA: Thank you.
COOPER: Thank you very much.
SANTANA: Thank you.
COOPER: Maria Santana from CNN Espanol.
Coming up, there's still so much as I keep saying, and it's important to recognize that we don't know about what these three women went through. What exactly went on for those 10 years. We do want to take a close look at the psychology behind the relationship between kidnappers and victims. And I use that term "relationship" cautiously. But that is what develops over the course of a long time frame.
We've all heard of Stockholm syndrome. We're going to hear from a forensic psychologist about how victims end up sort of bonding in a strange way with their captors and how fast that can actually happen.
Also next breaking news after four months of trial, verdict in the Jodi Arias case, guilty of first-degree murder. Jodi Arias spoke on camera just 20 minutes after the verdict. We'll have that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We're going to have more on the situation in Cleveland, particularly the psychology of what happens to somebody who's held captive for a long period of time. But there is breaking news tonight in the Jodi Arias case. As you know, she was found guilty of first- degree murder. Earlier today in an interview with Phoenix station, KSAZ, just 20 minutes after the verdict, Arias said she went blank when the verdict was read. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it unexpected, do you think, this verdict? JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF MURDER: It was unexpected for me, yes. Because there was no premeditation on my part. I can see how things look that way. But I didn't expect the premeditation. I could see maybe the felony murder because of how the law is written. But I didn't -- the whole time I was fairly confident I wouldn't get premeditation, because there was no premeditation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, Arias also talked about what she hopes for in sentencing. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: Well, the worst outcome for me would be natural life. I would much rather die sooner than later. Longevity runs in my family. I'm pretty healthy, I don't smoke, and I would probably live a long time. So that's not something I'm looking forward to. I said years ago that I'd rather get death than life. And that still is true today.
I believe death is the ultimate freedom. So I would rather just have my freedom as soon as I can get it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The Sheriff's Office says Arias is on suicide protocol in jail tonight in light of some of the statements that she made in that interview. Also Arias said she hopes that Travis Alexander's family can get some peace now that the verdict has been reached.
The verdict is the culmination of five years of the drama in this case. First Arias said she was nowhere near Alexander's house when he died, then she said she was there but that masked intruders killed him, and her third version of the story, the one that played out in court, Arias admitted killing him but said it was in self-defense. Something the jury apparently did not believe.
Casey Wian was in the courtroom when that verdict was read today. He joins me now live from Phoenix.
Casey, what happens next?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What happens next, Anderson, is very interesting, and almost unique to the state of Arizona. Many cases like this, we're used to hearing jurors coming out and talking to the media about their deliberations after a verdict like this. But what's going to happen is they've got to come back into court tomorrow afternoon at 1:00 local time, 4:00 Eastern, to begin the aggravation phase of this case.
And what the prosecution is going to try to prove is that this was an extremely cruel killing, and that would make Jodi Arias eligible for the death penalty. If the jury finds that in fact this was an extremely cruel killing that it moves on to the penalty phase, which will decide life or death. That's when the defense will get its turn to try to prove that there are mitigating circumstances that should spare Jodi Arias' life -- Anderson.
COOPER: Casey Wian, appreciate the reporting. It's been a remarkable day across the country, a lot of breaking news. I want to bring in former federal prosecutor and CNN senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin and Jose Baez who was Casey Anthony's defense attorney. Jeff, what do you make of her statement that she would rather die than live out her life in jail?
TOOBIN: Well, any other verdict would have been a shock. When you look at the substantial evidence of premeditation, when you look at the viciousness of this crime, 27 stab wounds, slit his throat, shot him in the head, and then her incredible catalogue of lies afterwards, this seems like the definition of first degree murder.
Now, as for the death penalty, it's very hard to know what to make of it. It's very personal decision for jurors. Remember, all she needs is one juror. She doesn't need 12 jurors to say no death penalty and that's it.
And her statement, the jurors are not supposed to be following the news, so it's supposed to not influence them. Frankly, I don't know what to make of that and whether -- if she testifies in the penalty phase and says that, it will have any influence on the jury. I just don't know.
COOPER: Jose Baez, you thought this was a just verdict, and do you think she actually would testify in the penalty phase?
JOSE BAEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think there is a slight possibility. But now after seeing that interview, I think her lawyers are probably giving her a serious tongue-lashing right about now. And she may even have to get up there and explain herself.
I think what she tried to do with that interview is probably -- do a little reverse psychology where she thinks they're going to give her death, and so really punish her, they should give her life. But what Jodi Arias needs to stop doing is stop trying to help herself. She's only hurting herself. However, I do think there's a strong possibility that she would have to get on that stand and beg for mercy. Beg for leniency.
TOOBIN: Remember, Anderson --
COOPER: Sorry. Go ahead.
TOOBIN: What I was just saying, remember, she already testified for 18 days in her -- in the guilt phase, and they completely rejected her testimony. So there's -- she doesn't have a great track record with these jurors. And that may be one factor pushing her not to testify, but it's going to be up to her. Obviously, she's not under the control of her lawyers, or she wouldn't have given this interview today.
BAEZ: I agree 100 percent.
COOPER: And Jose -- BAEZ: With Mr. Toobin's statement. I think that that was a huge mistake.
COOPER: This is where they basically -- they basically tried to kind of make her into a nice person. They interview her third grade teachers. They tried to get as many personal anecdotes to sway one or two jurors. It's really about swaying one or two minds, correct?
BAEZ: Correct. Right now -- you may have noticed a Hispanic woman that's been sitting behind the lawyers throughout the entire trial. That is their mitigation specialist. That person right now is Jodi Arias' -- the most important person in her life right now. She has conducted an investigation, and a background -- basically covered her entire life story.
She's going to pull out little stories and anecdotes about Jodi's life. Acts of kindness, ways she has helped other people in life, and things that will try and show this jury that this is a life worth saving.
And one thing you have to remember is all of these jurors were death-qualified, which means the lawyers have had an opportunity to find out, which jurors are really pro death penalty and which ones had to be rehabilitated to actually qualify to sit on this jury.
So the lawyers are going to be targeting their arguments to those jurors who are kind of wishy-washy as to whether they would actually impose the death penalty. So that -- right now they're thinking along that strategy. These are the people that we want to focus in on and these are the people who we have to convince.
COOPER: Jeff, very quickly, do the odds now shift in Jodi Arias' fair favor in terms of getting life?
TOOBIN: I would say they do, actually. Since the death penalty came back in 1976, there have only been 34 executions in Phoenix. There are 127 people on death row in Arizona, only three of them are women. It's very rare for women to get the death penalty. It's even more rare for the executions to actually take place. All in all, I think it's unlikely that she will actually be executed. But she has obviously alienated that jury in a very big way. And she's got a big problem going forward.
COOPER: Right. Jeff Toobin, appreciate you being on, Jose Baez, as well.
Up next, as we reported at the top of the program, new details about two women held captive, not fleeing when they had the chance. The question always asked, where why didn't they run away? The reaction was not unusual if you look at past cases. We have learned a lot about what happens to people in captivity. We'll take a look at what many call Stockholm Syndrome.
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COOPER: As crowds gather outside the Dejesus house this afternoon, waiting for Gina's return, they warmly greeted her with cheers and balloons. Today was a day that obviously so many here have prayed for. But no doubt a day some thought they would never see. Gina's father, however, never gave up hope.
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FELIX DEJESUS, FATHER OF GEORGINA DEJESUS: I'm the one that kept this family together. I'm the one that had the heart and soul to fight to see this day because I knew my daughter was out there alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He is a great guy and really never gave up hope. Obviously, in the case like this, a lot of people ask the question, why didn't these women try to leave? Try to escape earlier? We have learned a lot over the years about what happens to people in captivity.
And as we reported at the top of the program, we learned today from a law enforcement source with firsthand knowledge of the investigation that when Amanda Berry made her get-away Monday, Gina Dejesus and Michelle Knight could have run with her in that moment, but chose not to.
The decision to stay reflected their state of mind, according to the source, and the source says they were essentially brainwashed and fearful from their years in captivity. Their reaction, we should point out, was not unusual. It even has a name. Randi Kaye now reports.
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RANDI KAYE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kidnapper and victim, a relationship that can be one of the strangest and strongest in human psychology. And it may be just what the three girls kidnapped in Ohio relied on to survive.
KRIS MOHANDIE, FORMER LAPD PSYCHOLOGIST: It's a very primitive, almost child-like attachment that develops. They come to know that their very survival is dependent upon keeping this person happy and satisfied.
KAYE: Forensic psychologist, Chris Mohandie has studied cases involving what's called Stockholm Syndrome. He says kidnapping victims like those in Ohio bond with their captors in a matter of days. Stockholm Syndrome got its name during this bank heist in Stockholm, Sweden back in 1973.
When the hostages were freed, they kissed and hugged their captors. Two refused to testify against them. Perhaps the most famous case involving Stockholm Syndrome is Patty Hearst. The newspaper heiress was 19 when she was kidnapped in 1974. She was imprisoned and sexually assaulted. But later robbed a bank with her captors and remained on the run with them for more than a year.
PATTY HEARST, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: You come to a point where you believe any lie that your abductor has told you.
KAYE: Often in cases like these, people ask why didn't they leave, why didn't they escape? They must have had the chance. Our expert says the victim is usually so overwhelmed by the situation, they're unable to strategize. They feel powerless and fear if they anger their captor, it could mean death.
For 18 years, Jaycee Dugard was held by a convicted sex offender, locked away in a secret backyard shed. He forced her to have two children with him.
MOHANDIE: It's a fake little family, but it's a necessary illusion that she has to have in order to live day to day.
KAYE: Dugard spoke about it with Diane Sawyer on ABC.
JAYCEE DUGARD, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: The mind manipulation. Plus the physical abuse I suffered in the beginning. There was no leaving.
KAYE: Elizabeth Smart, kidnapped from her Utah bedroom in 2002, never tried to run either. She was found after nine months. Shaun Hornbeck who vanished in 2002 in Missouri stayed with his captor, too, for more than four years. Even though police say he was free to play outside, even sleep at a friend's house. For all of these victims, escaping the monsters who took them isn't nearly as easy as it may seem. Randi Kaye, CNN, Atlanta.
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COOPER: We're going to talk to Sean Hornbeck coming up. Joining me now is Laura Cowan. She counsels victims of this type of violence and she knows firsthand what they've experienced. She was a victim herself, held captive for four years by a controlling polygamist husband, beaten, tortured, mentally traumatized and she managed to escape. She was put in a garage for six months. Can you explain what makes somebody stay? That's the question people don't understand.
LAURA COWAN, HELD CAPTIVE AND TORTURED BY POLYGAMIST HUSBAND: I know, everybody asks why do women stay and there's so many different reasons. It's not just one. I mean, it's threats. I'm quite sure the women were threatened. I was threatened. He probably threatened them, the child, even probably threatened family members that they left.
COOPER: One source says there were beatings, he would do trial runs, he would pretend to leave and if they tried to escape, he would beat them.
COWAN: That happened to me also.
COOPER: Really?
COWAN: Definitely. You know, with victims like that, they go through a survivor mode, you know what I mean? I think it's called that Stockholm Syndrome, where they kind of relate to the captor, you know. And try to please him. It's really they're just trying to stay alive.
COOPER: It happens pretty quickly, from what I understand. People kind of accept their new circumstances.
COWAN: It does. Now, that's a psychological trauma. They do and they see it's no hope. And they really go into a depressed mode and post traumatic stress disorder. So, you know, I'm surprised, and I'm glad the girls made it out alive because, you know, a lot of women do not make it out of situations like this.
COOPER: Right. You finally in the end sort of -- writing a letter, writing letters, keeping really close notes about all of the abuse happening to you. You finally slipped a note -- the guy who was keeping you, took you to the post office. You slipped a note to a postal worker.
COWAN: Exactly. I started writing notes, because I had a bad feeling I wasn't going to make it through. And yes, when he took me to the post office, I was able to slip it to her. And she made eye contact with me. I made eye contact with her. She knew something was wrong.
COOPER: And that's really critical for people who -- you know, because as these stories emerge, we often here people maybe had suspicions. With Shawn Hornbeck, people asked him, are you Shawn Hornbeck and he said no. If people have a suspicion, they should pick up a phone.
COWAN: People need to get involved. And thank God for Mr. Ramsey. He got involved. He helped the girls get out. He could have turned an ear, shut the door. They would have still been in there.
COOPER: And a man, Angel Cordaro, the first one who ran across the street, that's really critical.
COWAN: Exactly.
COOPER: You built a new life.
COWAN: Yes.
COOPER: Do you -- that process has got to take a long time.
COWAN: It's going to take a lot. Even with the girls. We went through intense therapy almost eight years of therapy with me and my children. It took a long time before I could use my voice and talk to other women. And once I did, I started helping and started volunteering with different organizations, but that kind of was a healing process for me.
COOPER: Laura, great to see you again.
COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Cooper. Thank you so much. OK, sir.
COOPER: Amazing story. Up next, Shawn Hornbeck as I say was abducted when he was 11 years old, held captive for about four and a half years before he was rescued. I'll speak with him about how he was able to put his life back together after his ordeal, next.
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COOPER: There aren't many people can grasp what the rescued women here in Cleveland are facing as they try to move on with their lives after their ordeal. One of those people who can is Shawn Hornbeck. He was kidnapped in 2002. He was 11 years old, and held captive for four years by a man serving who is now 74 life sentences in prison.
In 2007, Hornbeck was found in an apartment along with another abducted boy who had been missing for four days. After they were found, the parents of Gina Dejesus were interviewed by a local television station at the time. Gina had been missing for three years. Take a listen to what they said.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a miracle they found these two young boys. I cried almost all night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That gives us all other parents now more hope to stand up stronger. And never give up that hope, never, because you never know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, they never gave up hope and today, Gina is home with her family. I spoke with Shawn Hornbeck earlier. And before I agreed not to talk about what he went through while he was in captivity out of respect for his privacy and respect for his recovery. I also talked to his parents, Craig and Pam Akers.
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COOPER: Shawn, when you hear the family of Gina Dejesus talk about your rescue, that it gave them home to be stronger and to never give up hope, what goes through your mind?
SHAWN HORNBECK, KIDNAPPING VICTIM: It just shows that, you know, people are watching, and it shows that my story has really touched some people in ways that we could hope that it did. And it just makes me feel happy.
COOPER: Pam, how important is it and how difficult is it to keep hope alive while your child is missing?
PAM AKERS, SHAWN HORNBECK'S MOTHER: For me, it wasn't all that difficult. I always felt like I still had that connection to Shawn. I always told myself that if he had had passed on or something bad had happened to him, I would know it, I would feel it. And I just never got that. And also too, when you're in a situation like we were in, you either decide that you're going to be on a dark side or you're going to be on a light side. And I just chose to make sure that we stayed on the light side. COOPER: Shawn, I've heard some people talk about how when someone goes through something like this, an abduction of this nature, of this kind of length, that some people may never recover. You say you don't believe that. Talk to me about that.
HORNBECK: Well, it really depends on the individual, and how much support they get. I mean, from day one, my family was there for me. To let me know that I was safe and I was okay and I had nothing to worry about anymore. And to me that's what helped me out the most, was knowing that I had their support and everything was going to be OK. And I didn't need to burden myself with it.
COOPER: Craig, I remember in interviews after Shawn returned that you were saying it was important to kind of let him talk to you in his own time. And is that something you would recommend the parents of these young women, the family members of these young women, that peppering with questions is not the way to go about this.
CRAIG AKERS, SHAWN HORNBECK'S STEPFATHER: Yes, absolutely not. Try to refrain from discussing anything related to the case. Our feeling is that's just going to perhaps make them withdraw more, because if they're not ready to talk about it, they may not even want to be around you, because they're afraid you're going to bring up something they're uncomfortable with.
When they reach the point where they're ready to talk about it, they're going to let you know, they're going to talk about it. You know, one day they're going to walk up to you and say, you know, I'm sure you've got some questions, and u know, if you want to sit down and talk about it, we can. We know that's one of the things that happened with us.
And, you know, we just really caution everyone, friends, family, even the media not to throw out all those questions. We know everybody is curious and everybody wants answers. But now is not the time. Answers will come. There's no rush. It's been ten years. We don't need to learn all these details tomorrow, maybe never. Only when they're comfortable talking about it should they come out with it.
COOPER: And how are things now, Shawn? How is your life now?
HORNBECK: My life now is actually pretty fantastic. You know, I work a 40-hour a week job. I mean, just your standard 21-year-old, got my bills that I pay and nothing real special.
PAM AKERS: He says that he's nothing special, but, you know, in our eyes, and I'm sure a million other people's eyes, he is special. I am very proud of what he has accomplished since he has been home. And, you know, that's one reason why we're doing all these interviews, is to let other victims out there know that there is life after this.
That you can go on. You can feel that love again. You can feel that trust. And then for the families that are still out there of missing children, it gives them hope that, you know, their child may be gone for a year or two, four, ten, you just never know. But they can also too come home.
COOPER: There is light at the end of the tunnel for some families out there. Pam, Shawn and Craig, I appreciate talking to you. Thank you so much for taking the time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: It's hard to imagine the mental torture parents go through when their children are missing for years. In 2003, Shawn Hornbeck's parents went on the "Montel William show" to get help from a self-professed psychic, Sylvia Brown. Take a listen.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her we go again with the wooded area, southwest of you.
PAM AKERS: Is there any landmarks around?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, strangely enough, there are two jagged boulders, which look really misplaced. Because everything is trees, and then all of a sudden you've got these stupid boulders sitting there.
CRAIG AKERS: And he could be found there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's near the boulders.
PAM AKERS: Is he still with us?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: She said he was dead. Years ago, Amanda Berry's mother also turned to Sylvia Brown on the "Montel William Show" desperate for any information about her daughter and again brown told the mother that her missing child was dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you don't think I'll ever see her again?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, in heaven, on the other side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, thankfully for both families we know that Sylvia Brown was wrong. She released a statement today saying, quote, "For more than 50 years as a spiritual psychic and guide when called on to help authorities or families with questions about their loved ones I've been more right than wrong. If ever there was a time to be grateful for being mistaken, this could be that time." She could have put out a statement saying "I have no shame whatsoever." We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: That does it for this edition of 360 live from Cleveland. We'll be back one hour from now, another live edition of 360 from here. "PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts now.
