Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Military Coup in Egypt Ousts Morsy; Jury Sees Martin's "Hoodie" Sweatshirt; Trayvon Martin Family Attorney Speaks Out; Snowden Search Fallout; Arizona Fire Damage
Aired July 03, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Ashleigh, thanks very much.
Good evening, everyone.
Two big stories dominating the hour, potentially vital testimony in the Zimmerman trial about whose testimony was where and the prosecution gets ready to call it's final witnesses, possibly, including Trayvon Martin's mother. We'll get to all but we begin, of course, with breaking news out of Egypt tonight.
The Muslim Brotherhood says deposed president, Mohamed Morsy, is being held under house arrest right now after being forced out by the military today after just one year in office.
Tonight the country is a powder keg, the situation extremely fluid. The images extraordinary. Right now pro and anti-Morsy demonstrators are still out in the streets. The U.S. embassy in Cairo has ordered all non-essential personnel to evacuate. The State Department has issued a travel warning for Americans.
Egypt's state-run media reporting that security forces have arrested the Muslim Brotherhood's political party leader and his deputy. They also say an operation is underway to arrest 300 members of the Muslim Brotherhood. They're also reporting that at least eight people were killed and more than 300 injured in clashes today across the country.
We also know that the military has cut off at least three pro- Morsy satellite television stations. Al Jazeera says security forces raided its Egyptian television channel and detained some of its staff.
Earlier Morsy made it clear that he doesn't accept the coup. In a taped statement aired by Al Jazeera insisted that he's still the country's legitimate president. He also said he's open to negotiating and engaging in dialogue.
The crisis in Egypt, a big issue obviously for President Obama today. Key members of his staff are seen entering the White House this afternoon as the crisis was unfolding. In a statement released about an hour ago Mr. Obama called on Egypt's military, "to move quickly and responsibly to return full authority back to democratically elected civilian government as soon as possible through an inclusive and transparent process and to avoid any arbitrary arrest of President Morsy and his supporters."
He went on to say, "I've also directed the relevant departments and the agencies to review the implications under the U.S. law for our assistance to the government of Egypt."
As I said, things are extremely fluid, moving fast. It's not an overstatement to say no one knows what happens next.
CNN's Ben Wedeman and Ivan Watson, joining us now from Cairo. Here in New York, Christiane Amanpour.
But first, I want to bring in (INAUDIBLE), a spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood who joins us by phone.
At this point, do you know where President Morsy -- where former President Morsy is right now?
GEHAD EL-HADDAD, MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD SPOKESMAN: Actually the word former is simply a mistake (ph). He's under house arrest at the presidential guard headquarters.
COOPER: And there have to be reports that as many as 300 Muslim Brotherhood members, that there are arrest warrants out for them. Is that what you understand?
EL-HADDAD: Yes, we also have reports -- from somewhat concerned sources, but we're concerned there, (INAUDIBLE), the head of the Freedom and Justice Party and the previous head of the Egyptian -- the elected Egyptian parliament, as well as the present leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, (INAUDIBLE), and also the entire presidential team have been put under arrest, as well.
COOPER: Supporters of this action by the military say that this is not a coup. They say this is the will of the Egyptian people as has been demonstrated in the massive turnouts over the last several days throughout Egypt. To you what is this and what happens next?
EL-HADDAD: I'm afraid that's an excuse. At the end of the day, everyone saw the images on TV. The military now has stepped in. The military (INAUDIBLE) by all Egyptians that are presenting all facts and decided to sidetrack the democratic process, align itself with one with faction of the opposition and decided to topple of the democratically elected president.
We've seen the images now on TV, holding new roads to election. They do not -- they have (INAUDIBLE) the constitution and -- this is a military coup. They have -- they started attacking and brushing with protesters. One protester had been shot in the leg already at the (INAUDIBLE) where I am now. So I mean, if that not a coup, what is a coup?
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: What happens now as far as you're concerned?
EL-HADDAD: -- don't happen under the eyes of the rest of the world and the rest of the world have watched.
COOPER: What will you do now? What does the Muslim Brotherhood do next?
EL-HADDAD: Well, we do what we do best. We stay on the streets and we stick to our principles. And until the scene changes and if it doesn't, at the moment will (INAUDIBLE) of how that reaction will happen. We're not violent but at the end of the day we are permitted to incorporate a peaceful change of power, but if the Morsy democracy every time it goes through gets railed that way, what other option are the people left with? People -- people need to elect their leaders. They need to choose the course of their country according to their will. And if they tell (INAUDIBLE) -- and you have an opposition factor don't like it, then they swoop in and let them off (INAUDIBLE). What does that say about the rally of democracy in the world?
COOPER: So as far as you see you plan to still continue to have demonstrations in the streets. You still -- you have -- you intend to have all your members out in the streets for as long as possible?
EL-HADDAD: For as long as reasonable. Yes. I mean, this is not about (INAUDIBLE) itself. at the end of the day, we try to defense. This is not about the charter itself. We are ready for that. (INAUDIBLE) and it had to be the democratic representative of the people, not through self-appointed representatives or treat people that have never got into the mounting decision because of the mistake of the state and the people.
COOPER: Mr. El-Haddad, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much.
I want to go with our -- to our Ivan Watson and Ben Wedeman, and our Christiane Amanpour.
Ivan, you've been in Tahrir Square all tonight. What is the latest that you've been seeing? What's the latest there?
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, this is the biggest party we've seen in Tahrir Square really since 2011 when Hosni Mubarak was overthrown. Fireworks, there are army helicopters circling overhead. People cheering and it's not 2:00 in the morning here. And the throngs are not dispersing right now.
There are two narratives for what has happened. The -- as you just heard, supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood saying this is a military coup and the people you've talked to in Tahrir Square saying, no, it was Mohamed Morsy who was acting increasingly undemocratic and we needed the military's help to push him out of power.
And what's striking is seeing some very prominent liberal voices like Mohamed ElBaradei, the Peace Prize winner, the Nobel Peace Prize winner, and former International Atomic Energy Agency chief, who was a former harsh critic of the Egyptian military, now standing side by side with the top Egyptian military general and defending this action, stripping Morsy of his powers, calling it a correction of the 2011 revolution. COOPER: Ben, you've been at a pro-Morsy rally all day long. Huge crowds there as well. What does happen next? I mean, how -- for how long can these kind of two rallies, these two various, you know, camps with large numbers of supporters in each one continue for?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's important to stress, Anderson, that the number of people at that pro- Morsy is just a drop in the bucket compared to the tens of thousands of people who are still streaming into Tahrir Square. Now as we were leaving that location, we passed through a mosque and I saw hundreds of men sleeping on the floor, and as I made my way around their sleeping bodies, I stopped by one man who was awake and I said, how long are you going to stay here? He told me days, weeks, we may die here, but we are going to stay here until Mohamed Morsy is once again president of Egypt.
And I think it's important to stress that even though the focus at the moment is on the celebrations, the fireworks, the joy, the excitement over what has happened in Tahrir Square, there is a significant portion of the Egyptian population -- I wouldn't suggest it's the majority, who are very upset at what has happened.
You have to realize that, you know, if you speak to analysts, they'll say there is a bedrock of about 30 percent of the Egyptian electorate that always votes for the Muslim Brotherhood. When you alienate, when you disenfranchise 30 percent of the population or the electorate that comes with risks. And we're already seeing violence in Alexandria, violence in upper Egypt.
So this is not like the 2011 revolution when the supporters of Hosni Mubarak sort of -- went home and were quiet for months and months. There's not going to be that quiet after the storm here in Egypt this time around -- Anderson.
COOPER: And Christiane, it's -- I mean, it seems impossible to predict what happens in the next 24, 48, 72 hours.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right. I mean, as they've been saying, our colleagues out there, the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't want to give up. President Morsy has said that I'm not going to give up. He's even calling for dialogue. Even now, you know, reports that he's under house arrest. But I think what's really critical is that this battle over the word coup.
COOPER: Right.
AMANPOUR: This battle. And it's going to be played out in how the United States responds or how the rest of the West responds, what does it mean in terms of aid to Egypt, and if it's, you know, proven and true, that they're returning around issuing arrest warrants for all these people, whether they're attacking and closing down various media outlets, doing that kind of thing, there is very little other than you can call it a coup and as one analyst said to me.
And as one analyst said to me, actually a player in this thing said to me, look, no matter what it's called, no matter if it's a Supreme Court judge, the head of the constitutional court is going to be the interim president, it's umpired by the army. No matter what it is. It's the army in charge no matter who they put there to actually be the interim case.
COOPER: But the Obama administration did not use the word coup and --
AMANPOUR: No, they haven't yet.
COOPER: Because that brings with it repercussions.
AMANPOUR: That's right. And in fact, General Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs told our Candy Crowley earlier this evening that if it's determined that this is a coup, well, then that will unleash and trigger various U.S. reactions because there are laws that determine our aid and all of this.
So I think the next, you know, while will be absolutely critical and it's a paradox. Here you have the first elected government, which obviously didn't perform as the people wanted, now being drummed out by the military called upon by so many millions of Egyptians.
COOPER: Ben, can you explain -- I mean, as we look at these extraordinary pictures from Tahrir Square and I know it's a lot of different groups who are there, a lot of different people there for different reasons. But can you explain their opposition to the Muslim Brotherhood, to the -- to the government run by the Muslim Brotherhood?
WEDEMAN: Well, as far as the opposition goes, I mean, really, it's a divided group, and now that the table is turned and the Muslim Brotherhood has -- is going to be in the political wilderness, it's a whole different ball game, but it's something that the Brotherhood is accustomed to existing in.
You have to remember that for decades under first Gamal Abner Nasser and then Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak, the Brotherhood existed in the political wilderness in a secret world, and they developed all sorts of mechanisms to hide their activities from not only the government but people in general, and so that engendered among many Egyptians a deep suspicion about the nature of the Muslim Brotherhood about their actions and their intentions.
And really we've kind of gone full circle. We're back to where the Muslim Brotherhood members are being rounded up, arrested, put under house arrest. And really we've come full circle, but this time around they've tasted power. They have had for one year, one of their own as president of Egypt, now they're back in the wilderness again. We'll see how they act.
AMANPOUR: I think one ought not to diminish and minimize the possibility of a bad backlash, even if it's 10, 15 years down the line, where there are even more hard lined Islamist could come to the fore. Here's the thing. The Muslim Brotherhood was doing a pretty good job on its own of showing that it is unable to govern at least right now. That is why the people are angry. Because it's unable to govern. There is practically a failed state, as they say.
COOPER: The economy -- right.
AMANPOUR: The economy is terrible, the crime. Plus it was tacking so far to its religious base. So all of that really irritated the people. You've also got, you know, a classic division between secularist, liberals and the religious base. But it is possible, you know, the Muslim Brotherhood would have been voted out in the next election.
Now they are the victims on this international stage. No matter the rights that the people say they have, that this group of governors didn't perform and therefore we're voting them out by a popular uprising.
And then, you know, the other thing is that this was meant to be a -- you know, an example of democracy.
COOPER: Democracy.
AMANPOUR: In the Arab spring. And it's been halted for the moment.
COOPER: Everyone, stay with us. You heard from the Muslim Brotherhood next. We're going to talk to a member of the other side, a key opposition figure who wanted President Morsy out. I'll talk to him about what he thinks is going on, where he sees this going next.
Let us know what you think on Twitter right now @Andersoncooper. We'll talk about it during the commercial break.
And later, the final day in the Zimmerman trial before the prosecution is expected to rest. But we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Back now with the breaking news we're following out of Egypt. About five hours ago the military deposed Mohamed Morsi, the country's first democratically elected president. When word of the coup came around 9:00 p.m. local time in Cairo, pro and anti-Morsy demonstrators have erupted. Here's what it looks like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May god preserve Egypt and its people.
WATSON: The moment that the announcement was made that the Constitution would be suspended, a huge cheer erupted behind me and now some Egyptians are applauding and celebrating this move.
WEDEMAN: The mood here is very dark, very angry, and we're hearing also chants of nasr al shahada, which means victory or martyrdom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Tonight the Muslim Brotherhood says that Morsy is being held under house arrest. It's important to keep in mind that Morsy won 52 percent of the vote last year. He was Egypt's the first democratically elected president and had three more years to go in office.
Earlier in a statement aired by Al Jazeera he said he's still the legitimate president.
Ahmed El Hawary is opposition activist who helped organized the massive protest, calling for Morsi to step down. He joins me now from Cairo.
Thanks for being with us. Those people who oppose what is happening now, what the military has done say that this is a coup clear and simple. How is this not a coup in your opinion?
AHMED EL HAWARY, OPPOSITION ACTIVIST: Well, there is nothing simple about it, Anderson. There is nothing simple about it at all. For the past -- for the past month, we have been calling as the opposition for Mohamed Morsy to step down and to do it democratically by resigning his office because of his failure and his mismanagement of the country, and to call for early elections, which is purely democratic in any system when you fail people call you to resign --
COOPER: But wait, let me stop you right there. So --
EL HAWARY: And -- for elections.
COOPER: Let me stop you right there, because actually, democracy is when you vote somebody out of -- out of office. This is a guy, and I'm not a defender of his in any way, I'm not a supporter of his in any way, but isn't democracy done at the ballot box not by putting bodies on the streets and getting the military involved?
EL HAWARY: Exactly. But when you have a political process, that's the idea. We don't have a political process because Mohamed Morsy has the power of this country from a real parliament, from any kind of format of political process, of political institutions. He has deprived us from any channels to change or to influence any kind of policies that has been done or mismanaged has been done in this country for the past year.
We don't have -- we didn't have any outlets or anyway to be heard unless we go down to the streets and chant our demands, and even though, he ignored us, and even though we have chanted we have done, we have campaigned, we have done everything outside of a political process because we've been deprived for a whole year of a format, of any kind of political format or a trustworthy dialogue channel with the presidency and with this cabinet.
And we've seen failure over failure. We've seen our sovereignty compromised. We've seen our foreign affairs compromised. We've seen us threatened in our even livelihood, denial, the case of the fuel, a great disaster with --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: So what do you want to see happen now?
EL HAWARY: And then you have --
COOPER: What do you hope happens now? I mean, Morsy, apparently according to Muslim Brotherhood, is under house arrest. There are reports that there are arrest warrants for up to 300 Muslim Brotherhood members. They still have a large amount of support obviously in the country despite mismanagement that's occurred over the last year, as you point out. What do you want to happen next?
EL HAWARY: First thing I must say that the -- that the supporters of Mohamed Morsy have stood staggeringly because he has actually made enemies of everybody. Even a bigger part or a big -- bigger chunk of the Islamist current in Egypt. What we have to understand that for very clear reasons Mohamed Morsy is not -- does not want to recognize the will of the people and he wants to clinch however he can to his failed authority.
What happened was the military aligned its action with the demands of the people, so we can avoid a civil war that the president actually openly in a speech yesterday has called for and has -- exactly threatened some of the people with a civil war if they did not comply to his rule, which is ridiculous when you've been held hostage by a mad president that's threatening you with his followers, his devout followers that they are going to shoot you down and that's what actually happened yesterday.
Mass shootings happened from his protesters -- from his supporters to actually not even the civilian protesters. The civilians at their homes. What we want now is basically for the roadmap that we have proposed to go through.
What we need is the full support of the international community. What's happening now is that there is smearing campaign against the Egyptian people. You're trying to tell me that half of the population is in the streets and more of the half of the population is in support of the removal of Mohamed Morsy.
And then you want me to feel hostage to a failed political system that he has installed with no political process for me to alter or change any failed policy that he has. And then you're arguing with me that this is not democratic.
When you find a president that was calling for civil car and his supporters are armed with machine guns, with bin Laden T-shirts, and telling you we've waged a war before in Afghanistan, we can do it again. We can turn you into an Algeria state over 1992, and you hear that for the whole month from his supporters.
And when the army actually as an institution of this country aligns itself with the people and tries to -- to actually -- to stop any kind of civil violence -- COOPER: OK.
EL HAWARY: Or civil war.
COOPER: I hear you.
EL HAWARY: And then you try to call that as a coup. I must say -- I must say there is a clear message that has to be delivered to the American media and to the United States administration. You're doing half of that PR with the Egyptian people. You're aligning yourself --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Sir, sir, my job is not -- sir, I'm not a PR agent, sir. My job is not to do PR for you or anybody else. I'm not taking any sides here. We're talking about the use of the word coup.
EL HAWARY: I understand.
COOPER: You clearly do not want to use that word. Just because you don't want to use it doesn't mean I don't get to use it or other people or the U.S. government doesn't get to use it. This is what we debate in America, this is how our democracy works.
I appreciate you being on and I appreciate --
EL HAWARY: Sorry, sorry, I don't --
COOPER: We gave you plenty of time to voice your opinion.
Ahmed El Hawary, I appreciate you being on.
I want to get Christiane Amanpour's take on what we just heard, as well as our other panelists.
Clearly, emotions are running high on both sides.
AMANPOUR: Yes, emotions are running really, really high, and you just heard the opposition there say look, what we wanted were -- was something politically advanced, some inclusive politics. We didn't get it and we took to the streets. And they say look, this is the will of the people being manifested. You know, the problem is that there is going to be this battle over the semantics. There's been this rhetorical war over what this is.
COOPER: Right. He's saying the media is using this word coup.
AMANPOUR: Well --
COOPER: This is something the U.S. government and all governments are going to have to decide, whether or not this was a coup.
AMANPOUR: They're going to have to decide. That's exactly right. And there is a very huge PR campaign in Egypt to actually discredit the language that is being used outside. (CROSSTALK)
COOPER: And I get -- I get supporters of what is going on not wanting to use that word.
AMANPOUR: Right.
COOPER: It's a loaded word. There is no doubt about it.
AMANPOUR: And here's the thing, Anderson. Look, they are correct in wanting a political system. There is no political system in Egypt.
COOPER: Of course.
AMANPOUR: As well all know, it is a nascent democracy, the only group that existed in politics was the Muslim Brotherhood and that was, as you know, in the shadows for so long, but they were organized. They had huge grassroots networks. They brought people out into the streets to vote. They had fantastic charity arms and, you know, wings in the mosque.
They really were able to organize and that's what happened. The opposition on the other hand does not have that kind of organization. It's very divided. There are no political parties. And so this is what's happening. Politics is happening on the street. The people have gone out. They've called on the military to take their side and the military has. Although the military refused to put it that way and they say -- here's the other thing, if Mohamed Morsy had done what he said today, what he said today.
COOPER: Right.
AMANPOUR: At the 11th hour.
COOPER: Too late. Right.
AMANPOUR: It was too late. He didn't say it last night in his speech on television. He didn't say it a week ago when the military first gave --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Right. And look, I mean the Muslim Brotherhood --
AMANPOUR: -- the ultimatum for national inclusion.
COOPER: And remember, let's remember, the Muslim Brotherhood is a group which said, back during the revolution that they weren't going to run for public office.
AMANPOUR: Right. That's true.
COOPER: And they betrayed that promise.
AMANPOUR: There is a lot of distrust. There is a lot of distrust amongst many people but the fact of the matter is there are supporters for the other side, as well. And so as a practical matter beyond the heat of the emotion of the moment, as a practical matter, it's going to be very, very important what happens next. It's going to be really important that the next bit of this process looks to be transparent, does not look like it's been run by the military, although the military is the umpire. Let us not beat around the bush.
COOPER: Although -- I want to bring back in Ben Wedeman in Cairo and also in Cairo, independent journalist Shahira Amin.
Shahira Amin, we haven't heard from you yet. What is your view of what is going on and more important, I guess, what happens now? I mean, if, you know, the Muslim Brotherhood can be rounded up, officials can be rounded up, they still do have support in segments of the country, what -- that's not going to disappear. So what happens in the political process?
SHAHIRA AMIN, FORMER DEPUTY HEAD OF NILE TV ENGLISH LANGUAGE CHANNEL: That's the big question at the moment. What happens now? Because people are out there celebrating. There's a very festive spirit, but a few people only are not just heaving a sigh of relief to see the back of the Muslim Brotherhood, they are concerned about what comes next, and I haven't seen any pictures of Islamist supporters yet to gauge their reactions to all of this.
I know that they've said they will put up a fight to defend legitimacy but not just that. Perhaps even wage jihad, holy war, to defend Islam. So that to me is very worrying and I am very concerned, indeed.
I hope we won't see a repeat of the Algeria scenario. Egypt is different, of course, from Algeria but I'm very worried about a possible stage of terror attacks.
COOPER: Ben, in terms of the potential for violence, it remains great throughout the country.
WEDEMAN: Of course, it does and let's not forget, Anderson, that during the 1980s and particularly the 1990s there was an urban war by Islamic militants, not the Muslim Brotherhood but El Gammal Islamiah, Islamic jihad, that left hundreds if not thousands of Egyptians dead and therefore people are -- the memory of that very difficult period, which culminated in 1997 with the massacre of almost 60 tourists is the city of Luxor is very fresh in people's minds.
And certainly the possibility that if the Muslim Brotherhood is completely eradicated from the political equation and I'll tell you, the rounding up of 300 of its top members, the silencing of their television stations certainly does not bode well for -- including them somehow in a diminished role in a post-revolution so-called 2.0 Egypt -- Anderson.
COOPER: And that's a key point, Christiane. I mean, what role, if any, would they have in any new election?
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, I mean, who knows. I was speaking to a top military official today, a former but was very plugged in. And he said to me, oh, no, Mohamed Morsy is going to be free, he can do what he want, maybe even partake in the next election.
Well, the next thing we hear is under house arrest were in some way, you know, not able to move around at the moment.
So, look, we don't know. But there's always a risk. We are sidelining what is -- let's not, you know, beat around the bush, a massive group who supports them. So I do believe that the whole idea from the beginning was inclusion. The military said to the president and to the opposition, my ultimatum to you is to get together and resolve your differences to meet the demands of the people.
They talked about national reconciliation and inclusion. And in fact today in the military's speech, Al Sisi, the defense chief said, amongst many other things, he said there must be a committee for national reconciliation. Does that committee for national reconciliation include the Muslim Brotherhood? It's going to be very, very interesting to see.
And, you know, he's dissolved the Constitution. We've got an interim president for who knows how long, an interim leader, and they have to prepare new elections.
COOPER: It's going to be fascinating to watch. Fascinating day.
AMANPOUR: And a key U.S. ally, let's not forget.
COOPER: No doubt about that.
AMANPOUR: And a key ally of Egypt -- of Israel as well.
COOPER: Christiane Amanpour, Shahira Amin, appreciate it. Ben Wedeman, stay safe, all of you there in Cairo. We'll check back in for any additional development throughout the hour.
Coming up next, the Zimmerman trial. The prosecution almost finished could rest its case on a Friday, possibly with testimony from Trayvon Martin's mother. All the angles to that, coming up. Plus we'll have a full hour on the trial at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. And also an update on the fire that took those 19 lives in Arizona.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: As we continue to monitor the fast movement developments out of Cairo, it's a big back home in the trial of George Zimmerman in what's turning out to be a speedier trial than first predicted. The prosecution called several key witnesses. Friday morning we anticipate they will rest the case right after Trayvon Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton takes the stand.
A lot to talk about with our panel of experts about how well or how poorly the prosecution has done and what the defense will do when it gets underway. We get underway right now though with Martin Savidge.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Though a symbol to many, the hooded sweatshirt Trayvon Martin wore the night he was killed is also a key piece of evidence. The state expert said he found no trace of George Zimmerman's DNA on that sweatshirt, not even on the sleeves or cuffs nearest to the fists. The defendant says Trayvon Martin was hitting him with and no Zimmerman DNA was found under Martin's fingernails.
And what about Martin's DNA, was it found on the gun, which by one Zimmerman account, the teen actually reached for and touched.
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: The swab or the DNA that you developed from the pistol grip of the defendant's gun was positive for blood, correct?
ANTHONY GORGONE, DNA ANALYST: Yes.
RIONDA: And then there was a mixture, the major matched the defendant George Zimmerman?
GORGONE: Yes.
RIONDA: And you were able to exclude Trayvon Martin as having DNA on the pistol grip, is that correct?
GORGONE: Yes, Trayvon Martin was excluded as being a possible contributor to this mixture on the grip.
SAVIDGE: The hoodie was also tested by a firearm's expert who said Zimmerman's gun was actually touching the fabric when he fired the fatal shot.
RIONDA: What did you find distance-wise when you conducted the test with the sweatshirt?
AMY SIEWERT, FIREARMS ANALYST: This as well was consistent with residues and physical effect of a contact shot.
RIONDA: So again, evidence saying that the end of the gun was against the material when it was fired?
SIEWERT: Yes.
SAVIDGE: The prosecution also pointed out the night he killed Martin, Zimmerman carried a fully loaded weapon with an additional round chamber ready to fire. But on cross examination, the defense got the witness to admit that was not out of the ordinary.
MARK O'MARA, ZIMMERMAN'S DEFENSE LAWYER: You did not consider that to be unusual, did you?
SIEWERT: No.
SAVIDGE: Earlier, the state was out to show that Zimmerman did not just want to be a cop, he was trying to learn how to become one, studying criminal justice at a local college. On the stand, a former professor described Zimmerman as one of his best students and said he gave him an A. Zimmerman has said he knew nothing of Florida stand your ground law the night he killed Martin, but the professor said the topic was a frequent source discussion in the class.
CAPT. ALEXIS CARTER, FORMER INSTRUCTOR SEMINOLE STATE COLLEGE: I wanted to teach the class from a practical standpoint where these students can really relate and take something from it and apply to their own lives. In Florida and other states they have what's called the stand your ground law, which evolved from the castle doctrine from case law.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cover that specifically?
CARTER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you discuss specifically self-defense and stand your ground laws in connection with violent crimes such as murder?
CARTER: Yes.
SAVIDGE: It was the testimony of another professor that provided one of the trial's few lighter moments. Unable to testify in person, Gordon Pleasant appeared in court via Skype. First there were some problems but then came the digital demons.
As Pleasant's name was carried on national TV, people appeared to begin calling him disrupting the testimony. A frustrated judge ordered the video call stop with the defense finally catching on to what was happening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a really good chance we're being toyed with.
SAVIDGE: In court the judge announced the state had planned to rest, that didn't happen and now won't happen until at least Friday after the 4th of July holiday. Martin Savidge, CNN, Sanford, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Let's dig deeper now to the testimony today in the trial so far with forensic scientist, Lawrence Kobilinsky, John Jay College of Criminal Justice, legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin and former Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney Marcia Clark and Rachel Night, also criminal defense attorney Jose Baez and Mark Geragos. Mark is the co-author of "Mistrial: An Inside Look at How the Criminal Justice System Works and Sometimes Doesn't."
So Dr. Kobilinsky, let's start with you. What do you make of the forensic evidence you heard today because the firearm expert talked about that the gun being pressed up against Trayvon Martin's chest and yet that is different than what the autopsy.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Yes, indeed, it's a contradiction as to the distance the muzzle was from the clothing and body. But I think if you think about it carefully, the bullet has to penetrate two items of clothing before it hits the body. Now medical examiners looking at the body and looking for tattooing or stippling as it's called, which comes from the burning particles that abrade the skin, now because there were these two items of clothing in between the muzzle and the body, you could see differences. You wouldn't necessarily see that stippling and therefore the medical examiner concluded it was not a contact shot, whereas the ballistics expert concluded properly that it was contact shot. I think she is correct.
COOPER: Does it really matter though in terms of the end result?
KOBILINSKY: Anderson, the bottom line is it was a struggle. It wasn't a shot from a distance --
COOPER: That's the key point.
KOBILINSKY: It's consistent with a struggle.
COOPER: Mark, the prosecution established Zimmerman's gun did not have an external safety and it had been loaded with a bullet in the chamber ready to fire. The defense tried to counter this. I just want to play that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARK O'MARA, ZIMMERMAN'S DEFENSE LAWYER: You stated that a person, Mr. Zimmerman, since we know it to be his gun, right?
SIEWERT: Yes.
O'MARA: OK, would have been racked to make sure it was in fact ready to fire and put another bullet in the magazine and reloaded it, correct?
SIEWERT: Yes.
O'MARA: As a matter of fact, the law enforcement officer again you had a chance to see, that is normal that it is one racked in the chamber and a full magazine, correct?
SIEWERT: Yes.
O'MARA: Military do that, correct?
SIEWERT: I'm unsure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So Mark, clearly, the prosecution is trying to paint Zimmermann as trigger happy want to be cop with a bullet in the chamber. It seems like the defense did a pretty good job of pointing out that actually, that's not so unusual.
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, not only is it not unusual, but if you're in a situation where you want to defend yourself, that's exactly what you do. That's why cops do it. That's why the military does it. I suppose that's why somebody on neighborhood watch does it. So I don't really understand what the point of that witness was because it ended up at best helping the defense.
COOPER: And Sunny, Zimmerman's criminal justice professor is on the stand today. I want to play that for our viewers part of his testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON WEST, ZIMMERMAN'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: On the issue of injuries, though, when you talk about that with the class and your understanding of the law is that the focus is what is going on in the person's mind not whether they have actually been injured, it's the fear of the injury, is it not?
CARTER: The fact that there wasn't an injury at all doesn't necessarily mean there was a reasonable apprehension of fear.
WEST: You don't have to wait until you're almost dead before you can defend yourself?
CARTER: No, you probably don't do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: A rare point where we saw George Zimmerman laugh. But Sunny, that witness was brought in by the prosecution to show that George Zimmerman knew about self-defense rules and stand your ground, but the defense was able to use him to kind of bolster their case, as well.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the defense certainly used the witness to instruct the jury a bit about stand your ground, but I don't know that that was the biggest take away. I think what was interesting was that George Zimmerman, in his interview with Sean Hannity was asked by Sean Hannity, had you ever heard of stand your ground? He said no.
He repeated no. Yet, this witness says, well, actually, I talked about it all the time in class. I talked about it practically, and so I think that the jury is not going to forget that. They will see that there was, perhaps, a lie there. Why do you lie about whether or not you know stand your ground? Well, you lie about it because the jury can infer or the police can infer that you framed the narrative, you framed your story so that you get off.
COOPER: But Jose, the defense was able to get out of that witness, that that professor, that it's not about the severity of the injuries, it's the way those injuries made George Zimmerman feel in the moment of struggle.
JOSE BAEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I'm a little shocked that the judge allowed this type of testimony to be admitted to begin with. I've never heard of a witness instructing the jury on the law. That's generally reserved for the judge to do. So, they were able to score a major home run here by, you know, in essence a grand slam to have a witness get up there and say, well, you know, you can't wait until your dead and what the parameters are of self-defense and things like that. It a dream witness.
COOPER: Marcia -- it does seem like --
GERAGOS: I don't understand -- what I don't understand is why didn't the prosecution object to this? When the question is asked, objection, motion to strike? What goes on back there?
COOPER: Let me ask you about that because this is yet, another prosecution witness the defense has able to turn and score some points with.
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER L.A. DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Yes, they did. They did it because of course, by having him explain the law, was unfortunate is he didn't make it clear enough, Anderson. What he should have said is look, what someone's actual injuries are doesn't resolve the question as to whether the shooter reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury because someone can point a gun, inflict in injuries and put you in reasonable fear of imminent death.
The fact that George Zimmerman, what kind of injuries he has is not really what resolved the question of whether he reasonably believed he was imminently in danger. What the point of those injuries is versus what he says is that it shows him to be lying. That's the point of it. The point of showing that his injuries were actually rather as described by another witness insignificant goes to I'm peach his statement. That's the point of all that.
So what the teacher was saying was something actually rather academic. As a point of law, we don't have to show any injuries to prove reasonable belief in imminent death. That the all. Too bad if it wasn't explained, I did not hear it explained in that manner and hopefully, the prosecution will to counter it.
COOPER: Everyone stick around. I want to dig deeper into calling Trayvon Martin's mom as a prosecution witness. We'll talk about that and we'll talk to Martin's family attorney, Daryl Parks next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: As we said earlier, Mr. Zimmerman and Attorney Mark O'Mara himself acknowledged this trial is proceeding quickly as trials go. The question for the Martin family though is whether or not it's going especially well and whether the prosecution needs to call Trayvon Martin's mother Sybrina Fulton to identify the voice in the 911 call.
To some of the questions tonight for Martin family attorney, Daryl Parks, I spoke with him a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Earlier today, there were thoughts that the prosecution would call Trayvon Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton to testify. Do you expect she will take the stand when court resumes on Friday?
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN'S FAMILY: Anderson, there is a strong possibility she will take the stand.
COOPER: What about Trayvon Martin's brother. There is also some who expect maybe he would be asked to testify, as well?
PARKS: There's a very strong possibility that he will testify.
COOPER: How important to the prosecution's case do you think their testimony is, in terms of identifying whose voice it is on that 911 call?
PARKS: Well, they call them to the stand, I would assume that it is a -- that's very important to their case. However, I'm not the lawyer trying the case so I'll have to defer to whatever their strategy is. If they call them, I would suspect they expect to get very strong testimony from them in this case.
COOPER: The state today presented evidence about Zimmerman's past, about his education course work. When I spoke with Mark O'Mara yesterday, he told me that he believes that opens the door for more discussion of Trayvon Martin's history. Do you think that should be admissible, that one opens up the door to the other?
PARKS: Not, not at all and I think we have to remember here in this particular case, we know clearly that Trayvon Martin was trying to get away from George Zimmerman and when approached George Zimmerman, he asked why are you following me? So Trayvon's past has nothing to do with the interaction, which was their initial interaction. We know from what happens in this case that George Zimmerman was following Trayvon in almost three different times came close to him and had an opportunity to say who he was and failed to do so.
You heard from the detectives, quite possibly had he done that, this situation may not have happened. So we think that his background and you have to take into prospective, his interaction with the detectives where Mark O'Mara's come forth with the theory that George Zimmerman was participating with the officers, he was acting in good faith.
All the things he's done to bolster George Zimmerman's testimony goes into the knowledge he had and experience in dealing with the self-defense situations and knowing that if he showed cooperating with the law enforcement it would go to his benefit. He learned these things at the college he attended.
COOPER: How concerned are you about the prosecution's case at this point? I mean, they are basically one day away from resting their case. There are a lot of analysts, former prosecutors, defense attorneys that are looking at this case and saying they don't see that the state has done a successful job of proving second-degree murder, perhaps -- perhaps the jury would come back with manslaughter charge. Are you confident in the way the prosecution's case has unfolded in the testimony given by a lot of prosecution's witnesses, which a lot of analysts say really has worked toward the benefit of the defense?
PARKS: Well, I have to tell you, Anderson, I'm sitting in that courtroom every day so unlike these other analysts that do not have an opportunity to witness the jury, do not have an opportunity to see all the evidence, the interaction, the jurors and how they are responding to the evidence, I don't think they get the full body of it --
COOPER: So you're saying something the TV isn't showing?
PARKS: Right, they can't see the jurors. I can see the jurors. I see what, for example, today when the expert was showing the contact of the gun, I saw every one of them except for one was engaging writing. It was very powerful. Someone sitting in L.A., he would never get that but I saw it.
COOPER: Were you surprised by the testimony that the lead investor tore on the case, a lot of people watching on television said they had never heard a police officer called by the prosecution give testimony that was so favorable to a defense?
PARKS: Well, I think also we have to remember how this case unfolded in terms of the investigation, interacting with the police department, the case being taken over by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, somewhat involvement from the FBI. No one likes for someone to come in and take over the case but I think at the end of the day, though, you have to remember one thing that came out of his testimony is that he thought that George Zimmerman was exaggerating his injuries.
COOPER: But --
PARKS: And so you have to take -- it's up and down thing.
COOPER: So you think there may be some ill will on part of the lead investigator to the way he was taken off the case and the way this case was handled?
PARKS: No, I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say there is ill will. I think that because he had mixed emotions, at the end of the day he wanted him to be charged, at least with manslaughter. So I would rest my opinion on that.
COOPER: All right, Daryl Parks, appreciate you being with us, thanks.
PARKS: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Back with our panel, Mark, let me start with you. What are you thinking as you look toward prosecution resting on Friday and the defense, how much longer, what are you looking -- who do you think the defense will put on the stand to bolster their case? GERAGOS: First thing, Anderson, when he talks about the analyst sitting in L.A., I want you to know I'm in Berkeley tonight, not L.A. OK? The second thing is, I think they telegraphed and not just going to call one family member, two family members, which I think will then cause the defense to call George Zimmerman's father. So I think, and Mark doesn't need my advice, but I think he should book end it with those two witnesses, if they rest with those two witnesses on Friday.
COOPER: Marcia Clark, do you see the defense putting on a robust defense for many days?
CLARK: No, I don't. I don't think they need to. The defense has been able to try their case within the prosecution's case. So I do think it will be relatively brief. I think they will rest next week.
COOPER: Sunny Hostin, do you agree with that?
HOSTIN: Absolutely, absolutely. I don't think the defense is going to put on a long case, at all, maybe two or three witnesses at most. We could be looking at a verdict I think by next week.
COOPER: Jose Baez, what do you think from the defense and from the prosecution on Friday?
BAEZ: Well, I agree with most of the panel. I think they will call the family, the prosecution is and then I think the defense will counter with Tracy Martin, but I do think the defense will put on Dr. Demayo. You don't hire a super star like that and not call them. I fully anticipate we'll see Dr. Vincent Demayo take center stage in the defense's case.
COOPER: From a forensic standpoint, Dr. Kobilinsky.
KOBILINSKY: I totally agree with what Jose said. From a forensic standpoint, looking at the totality of the evidence, I think the state has not reached that high bar for second-degree murder. I see nothing inconsistent with George Zimmerman's story. I think the state's case is slip sliding away.
COOPER: Well, we'll see. Days yet to go. Thank you very much. Appreciate all our panelist. Again, all the panel will be back in the 10:00 hour for all the latest. We'll go in depth for a full hour. See you back at 10:00 Eastern for our special report, "Self-defense or Murder, the George Zimmerman Trial."
Up next, the first a look at the destruction caused by that giant wildfire in Arizona that climbed the lives of 19 firefighters.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Let's get caught up on some of the other stories we're following. Susan Hendricks has the 360 Bulletin -- Susan.
SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, outrage tonight in South America over what happened to this plane, the jet carrying Bolivia's president home from Moscow. European authorities forced it to land in Vienna on suspicion that NSA leaker Edward Snowden was on board. A search revealed no sign of him.
Back home, our first look at the damage from the fire that took the lives of 19 elite Hotshots. The 360's Gary Tuchman reports that flames have died down, but officials are concerned it could flare up again at any time.
The State Department says it's cutting back after an inspector general's report documented excessive spending to promote its Facebook presence. The IG report said the money for two ad campaigns totaling $630,000 did not serve its core purpose.
A 360 follow, CNN has obtained an exclusive video of American Kenneth Bay who was sentenced in April to 15 years of hard labor in North Korea. In the tape, he appeals for authorities to forgive him and asks the U.S. government to help his release.
And she was Tiffany's VP of product development, but the Justice Department says she gaveled in product acquisition. Ingrid Lederhaas- Okun charged with stealing 165 pieces of Tiffany jewels totaling $1.3 million in value and selling them to an international jewelry company.
COOPER: That's weird. Susan thanks, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: That does it for this edition of 360. Thanks very much for watching. A reminder you can join us in an hour for a special edition of 360, "Self-Defense or Murder, In Depth on the George Zimmerman Trial."
Also be sure to stay tuned to CNN and CNN International for complete coverage of the story still unfolding in Egypt, all the late developments throughout the night. "PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts right now.
