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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Teacher Killed in Nevada School Shooting; The Cost of Obamacare; Walking Papers: How Two Convicted Killers; Special Prosecutor Reviewing Alleged Rape Case; Ceelo Green Accused Of Giving Woman Ecstacy; Exclusive Interview With Three-Time Tour De France Winner Greg Lemond; "Blackfish" Documentary Raises Questions About Whether Killer Whales Should Be Kept In Captivity
Aired October 21, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks.
Good evening, everyone.
Tonight, breaking news. We'll talk to the man who lost his brother in the school shooting outside Reno, Nevada. Two students tonight in the hospital. A teacher is dead and so is the shooter, student at the school.
A day that began with gunshots, chaos, and carnage, is slowly yielding answers to how it happened to the extent there can be answers what led to this tragedy.
Stephanie Elam is on the scene now.
What's latest that we know about how it all began?
Hey, Stephanie, it's Anderson. You're on the air. How did this begin?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, it is a complete situation of just chaos for the small community outside Reno here today, dealing with the loss of a beloved math teacher, Mike Lansberry. Had already survived tours of duty in Afghanistan, we're told. And we hear that he's the teacher that was lost today in the shooting at the hands of what we hear is supposedly a student who is there in the school at Sparks Middle School.
We do know that two other children were also shot. And I can tell you that those two children, one was shot in the shoulder, one was shot in the abdomen. They are in the hospital seeking care there.
At this point, they're saying that they think that there is nobody else involved in the shooting, just the one person there -- Anderson.
COOPER: Stephanie, we'll continue to -- Stephanie, actually can you hear me? Do you have IP?
ELAM: I can hear you now. Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: OK. Great. So there was a press conference a little less than an hour ago. Were officials able to provide much more information? I mean, are a lot of the details at this point still not known?
ELAM: Well, what we can tell you, too, that we heard from this press conference is that the gun that was used, they believe came from the parents' of the student who's at the heart of the shooting that he go out. It was a handgun that he got from his parents, they believe, at this point. They're also saying that those two children that were shot are now in stable condition.
So some good news there. But they also say a lot of this had to do with not being a wider spread disaster because of the fact that the teachers on campus reacted immediately. And made sure they locked down the classrooms. Got the students in. Locked those doors down. And this all happened within three minutes. Police were here at the school in three minutes. And by that point, everything was done -- Anderson.
COOPER: And have they talked about motive at all? About why this -- why this student would have done this?
ELAM: They are still trying to sort out, actually, whether or not the student was trying to target just this teacher or if he was just randomly shooting. At this point it's still unclear what his motive may have been. But obviously a lot of people in this small community, which is basically a suburb of Reno, just reeling from what happened here in this small town.
COOPER: All right, Stephanie, appreciate it. Thanks very much.
A short time ago I spoke by phone with Reggie Lansberry -- Mike Lansberry, the teacher who was killed, it's his brother. Here's the conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Reggie, what do you want people to know about your brother?
REGGIE LANSBERRY, BROTHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM (via phone): Just know that he loved teaching at Sparks Middle School. He loved the kids. He loved coaching them. He loved teaching them. He was just a good all-around individual.
COOPER: Everybody says that so many of the kids there just loved him, loved being in his class. He also had served in -- overseas, in the military, correct?
LANSBERRY: Yes. Yes, sir. He was in the Marine Corps and just up -- he was in the National Guard.
COOPER: And he had served in Afghanistan?
LANSBERRY: Yes, yes.
COOPER: Have you been told by police any more about what actually happened? LANSBERRY: I called a few of my -- friends who are in law enforcement, just trying to get some information. And I finally, I got -- got a number to a gentleman who was on the scene there and he was the one who initially told me that Michael didn't make it. And -- yes. Well, I guess he was killed on the scene. So -- but that was the only person that I had spoken to that has told me anything about it.
COOPER: As you -- as you know, I mean, witnesses say that he tried to reason with the shooter before he was killed. Does that sound like something, something he would do?
LANSBERRY: Yes, sir, yes. He -- I mean growing up -- our dad was in the Marine Corps for 22 years. So it was -- that was the kind of person that Michael was. And he -- he would do, he was the kind of person that, if somebody needed help he'd be there. So I could -- I could see that happening. You know he -- you know, God forbid anybody get hurt. But he was the type of person that, you know -- I mean -- you know, the student who came in and -- did what he did. He was -- he probably tried to talk the kid down. I mean, and protect whoever he could. So that's sounds like Mike.
COOPER: Just the kind of guy he was?
LANSBERRY: Yes, sir.
COOPER: Reggie, again, I am so sorry for your loss. And please extend our condolences to the entire family. And I don't want to bother you at this time. But I just want to wish you the best and wish you strength in the days ahead. Thank you, Reggie.
LANSBERRY: I appreciate that. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: I want to now turn to a mother who must have hugged her daughter Faith that much tighter today. Faith Robinson witnessed the shooting. She and her mom Tara join us tonight.
Faith, I can't imagine how scary this was for you today. If you feel comfortable, can you tell me what you saw, what happened?
FAITH ROBINSON, SHOOTING WITNESS: When I got to school, me and my friend were talking. And then the guy just started shooting. And we just ran to a school. And my friend ran somewhere else. And I started getting really worried. And I was trying to get ahold of my mom. And my phone wouldn't work.
COOPER: So where were you when you were trying to call your mom?
F. ROBINSON: I was at my school on the side of the building. And when my teacher -- not my teacher, but a teacher ran and he got shot.
COOPER: And, Tara, when did you realize something was going wrong? Was it -- was the call from your daughter the first indication? TARA ROBINSON, MOTHER OF SHOOTING WITNESS: My daughter called me saying that there was a shooting at the school and to come and get her. And I was like "OK, I'll be there," because I was on my way to go to school myself because I go to college. And I was no more than like two minutes away from where her school was at.
COOPER: I can't imagine what the call was like. When you -- when you got to the school, what did you see?
T. ROBINSON: All I saw was lights, ambulance, sheriffs, highway patrol. Reno Police Department, Sparks Police Department, guns, parents in panic mode because they didn't know what was going on.
COOPER: Did you know this -- the young man who was the shooter?
F. ROBINSON: Yes, I know him. He is -- he is in my class for first period.
COOPER: And, Tara, when were you finally able to be reunited with Faith?
T. ROBINSON: It wasn't until maybe 9:00? I was there for about an hour and a half. Took me about 45 minutes to an hour to finally see my daughter and put her in my arms and bring her home.
COOPER: Well, I am so glad that -- Faith, that you're OK. And Tara, that you were able to get there so quickly and be reunited. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.
T. ROBINSON: You're welcome.
COOPER: You can follow me on Twitter tonight, @andersoncooper. Tweet using #ac360. Another shooting.
A lot happening, though, tonight. You already know about the health care Web site mess. We're going to take another angle you need to know about, even if you managed to sign up online. One that could cost you and your family a whole lot of money.
Later, how these two killers now back in custody managed to just walk out of prison in the shadowy operation that may have provided the papers that sprang them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. "Raw Politics" now. An aspect of health care reform mess that goes beyond the dysfunctional Web site, Healthcare.gov. Of course there's late news on that as well. We've learned today that a House committee plans to grill the contractors responsible for building it and creating a mess that may take months to clean up. The hearings began on Thursday.
Today, President Obama said nobody is madder than him at the snafu. He pointed out that glitches in all, Healthcare.gov has gotten about 20 million visits. Now that's different than 20 million unique visits and it's a lot different than 20 million people actually signing up. The White House still has the not released that information. Why that is? Well, we don't know.
President Obama's focus today wasn't the numbers. In a nutshell, it was pretty much the Web site is lousy but the product is good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I got a letter last week from a self-employed man named John Myer in Leetsdale, Pennsylvania. He used the new marketplace to get himself and his wife covered and save a lot of money. And here's what he said. Because it pretty much sums up my message today.
"Yes, the Web site really stinks for the first week. But instead of paying $1600 per month for a group insurance plan, we had a plan that will only cost us $692 a month. A savings of $900 per month."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, President Obama there trying to -- trying to highlight the winners under the Affordable Care Act. Spent a lot of time focusing on one group in particular.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Many Americans with a preexisting condition, like Janice, are discovering that they can finally get health insurance like everybody else. Every day people who were stuck with sky-high premiums because of preexisting conditions after being turned down for insurance three times due to minor preexisting conditions.
If you've got a pre-existing condition it will save you money. There is no more getting denied because you've had a preexisting condition.
People with preexisting conditions can now afford insurance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, it turns out that is a huge number of people. According to nonpartisan Government Accountability Office, anywhere from 36 million to 122 million Americans have preexisting conditions. Many already get coverage through work and still would under this law. Those who were denied before will now be covered under Obamacare.
But what about -- what about people who don't have preexisting conditions? People who don't have employee coverage but are getting a good deal on their insurance right now?
As Drew Griffin found out, many of them say the new law is going to cost them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Christie Metzger and her husband Mark are both 29 years old. Healthy with two healthy baby girls and one big problem. Their health care company has informed them their current plan will cease in the next year because it doesn't comply with the Affordable Health Care Act. She needs to find a new plan.
So Christie, a part-time teacher, and her husband, who owns a video company, went online. And after a week of trying finally figured out just what kind of insurance she could get under the Affordable Care Act. And for her, it seems unaffordable.
CHRISTY METZGER, PART-TIME TEACHER: And when I logged on, I was like, no, this is -- this is very bad. This is much higher than we were currently paying.
GRIFFIN: Their current plan costs $450 a month with a $5,000 family deductible. The Bronze plan she found under Healthcare.gov will cost her $650 a month with a deductible somewhere between $3500 and $6,000. Christie says she has yet to find out if she qualifies for any subsidy.
METZGER: It's very frustrating because we'd like to know for planning for the future.
GRIFFIN: Joshua Strickland, who owns a small business in North Carolina, spent two weeks trying to get on the Affordable Care Act site and couldn't, so he went to his own insurance company, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, which was able to give him quotes for both his renewal under a private plan and his quote under the Affordable Care Act. The results, no matter which way he goes, he will be paying much more.
JOSHUA Strickland, small business owner: What I found was that the plans made available were almost twice as expensive.
GRIFFIN: His renewal under his current plan will increase by 9.8 percent to a monthly cost of $540. His deductible will jump, too, actually doubling from $500 to $1,000. Under the Affordable Care Act, he says, the most comparable plan for himself and his three children, is much worse. He was quoted $838 a month with a $1,000 deductible. And that is after taxpayers kick in a $150 per month subsidy.
(On camera): You feel like we were told, number one, overall health care costs would come down, no that where you go it from, and perhaps number two, the government cost if you went on the Affordable Care Act, would be at least lower. And you are not saying -- you're seeing increases on both ends.
STRICKLAND: That's correct, Drew. That's -- you hit the nail on the head with that. Definitely, I was expecting to see more options, more affordable plans available, and -- for the numbers I ran for myself, I saw just the opposite.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Then there is 56-year-old Helen Cummings of Georgia. She retired early from an airline and now has a new government job making $24,000 a year. She has chosen to have no health insurance. If she currently needs health care, she goes to a hospital and pays the pro-rated cost for uninsured patients. (On camera): You must have been somewhat excited.
HELEN CUMMINS, PUBLIC EMPLOYEE: I was. I was.
GRIFFIN: That you might get health care insurance.
CUMMINS: Oh my god. I was so totally excited.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): When she finally got through, signed up and found out she would not qualify for a subsidy or Medicaid. She learned her cheapest option under the Affordable Care Act is between $357 and $387 a month with a $6,000 deductible. It's just too much she says.
CUMMINS: I was hurt. I was truly hurt. Because of the fact that -- I was expecting better. I was really expecting better.
GRIFFIN: The White House and the president himself has made it clear there are plenty of people excited about the plans, especially those with pre-existing conditions, who are now covered, and in many cases, paying less.
OBAMA: And those who already had a chance to enroll are thrilled with the result. Every day people who were stuck with sky-high premiums because of preexisting conditions are getting affordable insurance for the first time or finding against it that they're saving a lot of money.
Every day women are finally buying coverage that doesn't charge them higher premiums than men for the same care, every --
(APPLAUSE)
Every day people are discovering that new health insurance plans have to cover maternity care, mental health care, free preventative care.
GRIFFIN: But the treatment still costs money. And the Affordable Care Act is dependent on lots of healthy people participating to make it work.
ROBERT LASZEWSKI, PRESIDENT, HEALTH POLICY AND STRATEGY ASSOCIATES: This doesn't work if we don't get lots and lots of healthy people signing up because no insurance plan is going to work if you only get sick people signing up and the healthy people stay out.
GRIFFIN: It will all come down to the actual numbers, numbers the administration has yet to reveal.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRIFFIN: Anderson, because this is such a contentious topic especially at the White House, I want to be very transparent here. We did not seek out people who have found success under the Affordable Care Act.
The president today touted many people, many of them seemingly with preexisting conditions, who will fare better under the act. But with Healthcare.gov's Facebook, also through small business groups, another network CNN looked for, and we found, these three individual cases, these are people looking forward to better coverage under the act and who wound up being disappointed.
We are pointing them out because they are healthy. They need the coverage. And they are the very people the government needs to voluntarily sign up to make this work.
COOPER: Is there any way to determine how many Americans overall have signed up so far? I mean, the administration isn't releasing numbers.
GRIFFIN: Well, it is tricky. CNN has pulled all of the state exchanges, 14 of them and the District of Columbia. Not all have returned our calls. But from those figures we know 270,000 people in the exchanges have signed up. Over the weekend, we heard from Health and Human Services, they say the total number is now 500,000 or about half a million. But as you said, we still don't know all of the information because the government is not telling us.
COOPER: All right. Drew Griffin, appreciate that. We're going to obviously be covering this a lot in the days and week as head.
Today "The Washington Post's" Ezra Klein, who's a staunch defender of the health care law, said this about how President Obama is addressing the Web site disaster, and I'm quoting from Ezra Klein, quote, "The problem with President Obama's Rose Garden address and the Affordable Care Act was it was basically identical to the speech Obama would have given if the law's launch had been smooth."
Fair criticism? Joining us now two CNN political commentators, Democratic strategist and pollster, Cornell Belcher, and GOP strategist Kevin Madden.
So, Cornell, I mean, this is the Obama administration's signature piece of legislation. They have three years to set it up. I know obviously you're an Obama supporter. You worked as a pollster in the campaign. You've got to admit this is a big misstep on their part, no?
CORNELL BELCHER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: A couple of things. One is, I've got to tell you, I'm a little disturbed by that story. And I think that story we just ran was a story more deserving of FOX than CNN, where you're cherry picking cases where it doesn't work. I mean, quite frankly the first family. We don't even know if they -- if they -- if the government subsidies apply to them.
And then the last woman, quite frankly, she hasn't had health insurance and didn't the $350 a month and she's complaining about it. So quite frankly, I think our cherry picking there is a little disturbing but that aside, I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: The alternative, frankly we just -- we played the Obama speech where he has all these people, all these feel good stories right behind him.
BELCHER: Well --
COOPER: So the idea it was sort of to counter against that even though he just have --
BELCHER: Well --
COOPER: You know, the positives.
BELCHER: I'm sorry, it still comes across slanted. I mean, here's the thing. I mean, what we do know is -- you know, 500,000 applicants. What we do know is in a state like Oregon where they're actually trying to implement it, as opposed to blocking it, they've already cut the number of uninsured by 10 percent.
But let's not get bogged down in the process. This shouldn't be about a process. This is about a value and what we believe in. What is unfolding right now is this, millions and millions of American families who work every day, who can't afford health care, who are one sickness away from bankruptcy, will now have an opportunity to health care.
GRIFFIN: Anderson, this is Drew.
BELCHER: That is about --
GRIFFIN: I'd like to step in.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Hold on. Sorry. I just want, Cornell -- Cornell, yes, I got your point.
Drew, you wanted to comment?
GRIFFIN: I mean, I just was compared to that F network, and I just want to kind of defend myself here.
(LAUGHTER)
Cornell, I -- I didn't see the president -- bring anybody out who said here's Joe blow. He's got to pay more under this plan but that's OK because Joe blow is going to pay for Mary Smith who has a preexisting condition. We had coverage of the president all day today. We have been talking about the various example he has of people paying less.
I wanted to bring to your attention and to everybody's attention, this is not going to be a win-win for everybody. The fact is, to pay for people with preexisting conditions, healthy people need to pitch in. These were healthy people. All of them looking forward to signing up under this health care act, went on line and were very much disappointed.
The reason we are reporting the story is because in the long term, this could also be a problem, far beyond the Web site that the administration may have to fix.
BELCHER: And, Drew, I want to apologize for connecting you with the F network. I know that's probably going farther than you deserve. But here's main pushback here, my main pushback is this. We have the president saying that millions upon millions of Americans are going to be able to afford this. And then you have CNN, saying -- who's supposed to be sort of be -- you know, in the middle guy saying that these are people who won't be able to afford it.
You know, we got Republicans on the other side sort of making that case. I don't like CNN making the case on -- you know, making that case for the Republicans. That's my pushback.
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFIN: Well, Cornell, the president said that, you probably heard that on CNN. And you heard it in my story as well.
COOPER: Let's bring in -- let me bring in --
GRIFFIN: When the president says something and other people say something as well.
COOPER: OK. All right. Let me bring in Kevin here.
Kevin, what -- I mean, President Obama took a stab at Republicans in the speech today saying it's time for folks to stop rooting for failure of Obamacare.
Yes.
COOPER: I mean, from your side, if you think this law is a failure and a bad thing, isn't there something to be said for allowing it to fail? Wouldn't that be just strategically -- I mean, if it's so bad, why not allow it to fail?
MADDEN: The problem is, look, the problem is, and look, and to -- just so I can weigh in on the earlier comments. Look, there is both anecdotal and empirical evidence to back up Drew's package that this is -- that this law is not working and is really hurting a lot of people and their pocketbooks.
The Republicans, you know, it may be -- it may seem simple that we're gaining some sort of strategic example for this. But the problem here is that Republicans always disagree with this on substantive policy reasons. This is 1/6 of the American economy that President Obama rearranged. Took of -- took what used to be 50-state standards and applied one federal standard to it and then said, let's see if this works.
And what we're seeing right now based on both the anecdotes that we heard from these families that are struggling to pay these costs is that it's not working and it's getting the government between patients and their doctors, and also, is hurting bottom lines of many hard working Americans.
And that's what Republicans were always focused on, was relieving that burden from many -- working Americans.
COOPER: Can you really say that at this point?
(CROSSTALK)
BELCHER: No, no, you've got --
COOPER: I mean, do we even -- we don't have numbers, we don't really know the impact of this on a lot of people at this point, Kevin? I mean, is it really fair to say it's hurting people?
MADDEN: Well, we're seeing it both -- again, there is anecdotal evidence and there's empirical evidence. I mean, we look at the numbers. You have so many people right now that are -- that are moving from part-time work -- I'm sorry from full-time work to part- time work. We're seeing the -- that the rate increases not only in one state, but in many states, that have now -- are now implementing this law.
So we do have -- we have a tremendous amount of evidence right now. And it is very -- it's got to be very frustrating for people out there, particularly you reporters that are trying to hold the administration accountable that they simply can't come up with numbers that they should know and should be sharing with the American public, because it's crucial to making the law work.
BELCHER: Well, Anderson, let me ask you this. I mean, just factually here for one thing. You know, the idea that the cost of health care coverage, the cost of health care has been rising, it has not -- it's not actually true. We all -- we all know that. Quite frankly something has to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
MADDEN: Cornell, we're seeing premium --
COOPER: Let -- Cornell --
(CROSSTALK)
BELCHER: We're seeing the cost of health care actually stabilizing, which is the -- first time it's done that in generations. The idea that this has been rolled out and it is failing now, I mean, you're pulling that out of thin air. We have -- we have no idea what we do know. What we do know is that we have 20 million people --
MADDEN: The president himself said --
(CROSSTALK)
BELCHER: What we do know is we have people trying to sign up. People are hungry for health care. Trying to sign up for health care. And again it's the value of it. If we -- we should -- we're a country that should value the ideal if you work hard you shouldn't be able -- you shouldn't have to go bankrupt for getting sick. That is the over- arching value. COOPER: OK.
BELCHER: And Republicans' answer to that is to root for failure.
COOPER: Kevin, final point then we got to go.
MADDEN: Look, all Americans -- all Americans believe that we needed health care reform. Where Republicans and Democrats differed on was the way we went about it. And I think the way that the -- the Democrats went about it which is one big federal government-centric plan, it's obviously not working. It's hurting many folks.
BELCHER: That we got from Romney.
COOPER: Kevin Madden, Cornell Belcher --
(LAUGHTER)
MADDEN: No.
COOPER: Thanks.
MADDEN: Cheap shot at the end.
COOPER: We'll have more on that up next.
The murderers mistakenly let out of a Florida prison next back in custody. We'll tell you about the document forging operation that let them walk.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Crime and punishment tonight, the kind of prison break you probably never heard of and probably never could imagine. Two convicted killers walking out of the slammer, exactly what these two did walking out of Florida's Franklin Correctional Institution with the help of forged documents.
Tonight they're back in custody. Others helped them out there with possibly dangerous criminals who owe their freedom to a black market publishing house for walking papers. Ed Lavandera takes us inside.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The take down, all captured on a cell phone camera. Charles Walker and Joseph Jenkins were found Saturday night at the Coconut Grove Motel in Panama City, Florida. So who is the master mind behind their escape? Florida law enforcement officials say the two men are not cooperating with investigators or answering any questions.
What we do know is the two convicted killers had forged court documents authorizing their release from the prison. The paperwork included Judge Belvin Perry's forged signature. Perry was the judge in the high profile Casey Anthony murder trial. He says if anyone had taken a close look at the documents. There was a glaring problem. JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY, FLORIDA: The big red flag to me -- was the fact that why would the state attorney be moving it?
LAVANDERA: He says it is virtually unheard of for a prosecutor to push for a lesser sentence, a common request from defense attorneys. Florida law enforcement officials say they have discovered this fraud isn't isolated to the cases of Walker and Jenkins. Officials say there are five other instances where bogus documents were used in an attempt to minimize prison sentences.
Jeffrey Forbes is serving a life sentence for attempting to murder a police officer. In 2011, documents were mysteriously filed to reduce his punishment, but the detective who worked the case caught it in time and Forbes was never released.
In 2009, ironically, forged documents almost made this man's criminal forgery charges disappear. He was let out of jail for a day before the fake document scheme was caught. The judge whose signature was forged in that case is frustrated to hear it happened again.
JUDGE THOMAS MCGRADY, PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA: In the modern world of copying electronically or otherwise, it's not that hard to lift a signature from one place and put it on another.
LAVANDERA: The commissioner of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement tells us that his investigators have discovered an underground cottage industry where people can buy forged authentic looking court documents for as much as $8,000. As for Walker and Jenkins, Florida investigators say the forged documents were mailed to the clerk's office inside this Orlando Courthouse.
Those papers are being analyzed for DNA evidence. Florida investigators have also seized computers and printers from the Florida Panhandle Prison where the convicted killers were held, looking for clues where the documents originated. But it is clear to investigators, Walker and Jenkins does not act alone in pulling off this caper.
JERRY BAILEY, COMMISSIONER, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT: We have pinpointed the suspects. Those arrests are -- they're not predicted they're going to happen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Ed Lavandera joins us now. So, you mentioned several older cases of forged documents. Do we know how long this has been going on?
LAVANDERA: Well, those examples that we showed you in the piece there date back to 2009. But the Florida Department of Law Enforcement said it was really this summer, middle of the summer, when they realized just how organized this process was and how -- how they wanted to get it on the radar. Prosecutor as cross the state, FDLE, State Law Enforcement Agency says they do not believe it is a widespread problem across the state. They have seen it in several isolated areas. They wanted to make state prosecutor across the state aware of it and to be vigilant about it.
COOPER: Ed Lavandera, appreciate it. Thanks very much. There's a lot more happening tonight. Isha Sesay has a 360 Bulletin -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, a 360 follow, a special prosecutor will now look at the alleged rape case in Maryville, Missouri, and vow to review the case, quote, "without fear and without favor." The alleged victim, Daisy Coleman, believes the charges were dropped against her accused attacker because he is related to a former state legislator. The original prosecutor says that is not true.
Singer and "The Voice" judge, Ceelo Green pleaded not guilty today to giving a woman ecstasy at a Los Angeles restaurant in 2012. The D.A. dropped the rape charge due to insufficient evidence. Green whose real name is Thomas Decarlo Calloway could face up to four years in prison if convicted.
Anderson, in Boston, a woman says she fell asleep on a bench and was sleepwalking when she fell on to the tracks. She was rescued by fellow commuters. Yes, she is doing all right. Horrible.
COOPER: Isha, thanks. Just ahead, a 360 exclusive, Greg Lemond, the first in-depth interview since Lance Armstrong finally came clean about doping. Lemond says without the drugs, Armstrong wasn't capable of winning a Tour De France.
Also ahead, the controversy that's been raging since the death of a veteran Sea World trainer, is captivity driving killer whales crazy? Is it time to set them free? Details ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight an exclusive, cycling legend, Greg Lemond is speaking out in his first in-depth interview since Lance Armstrong finally admitted to doping after years of denials. Lemond is a three-time Tour De France champion and has long been a vocal crusader against doping and cycling.
I recently interviewed the authors of the new book "Wheelmen," which describes in great detail the conspiracy of doping that Lance Armstrong spearheaded on the U.S. Postal team. I talked to them about the people who were complicit.
We also talked about the people who were hurt along the way perhaps no one more than Greg Lemond. Needless to say, when I sat down with Lemond, we had a lot to discuss.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: For you cycling was -- emotionally important. It wasn't just something you were good at and wanted to compete and win at. It filled a need in your life?
GREG LEMOND, 3-TIME TOUR DE FRANCE WINNER: Well, yes. I -- I had -- I had really discovered cycling after a difficult period in my life where I had been sexually abused prior to getting into cycling. It was kind of like a blank out, but cycling literally saved my life.
COOPER: When you say it saved your life, it gave you something to focus on, gave you a way out?
LEMOND: I say it. I have no clue what I would have been like had I not found, exercise really opened my mind. It actually gave me kind of peace, but it was also very fulfilling and I would say, it saved my life. I always go, gosh, I can see somebody in my -- my, let's say the way my brain works, coming from a period of being sexually abused you could be self destructive. People can self destruct. Cycling was a positive aspect.
COOPER: You didn't want to dope?
LEMOND: No. No, of course not. There is a sickness in sports. It is an ego decal. If somebody is better, more talented, the egos don't believe that person that's much better. They believe that guy has got to be cheating and they cheat. And so, it is rare -- I think I was very fortunate to be extremely talented and not have -- never have to think about that to perform. Why would you -- why would I have to think of taking something if I'm winning?
COOPER: When did you meet Lance Armstrong? When was the beginning of your --
LEMOND: I met Lance at the wind tunnel in 1990. I had just won the tour. Kind of was aware that -- some young riders might be nervous to meet me. I kind of jokingly said you like look more of a football player than a cyclist. My wife said he didn't take it well.
COOPER: You spoke out about Lance Armstrong. A lot of people criticized you for that at the time. Why did you speak out?
LEMOND: It wasn't Armstrong. If it would have been a Belgian and I knew this, it would have been. I would have had the same opinion. It was Armstrong in particular.
COOPER: In fact it sounds like almost if it was somebody else you would have spoken out more, there wouldn't have been the cancer story. There wouldn't have been the Live Strong Charity. There wouldn't have been all these things.
LEMOND: But that actually was the thing that got me the most that he manipulated the cancer community. I have family members with cancer. Everybody has been affected -- by cancer -- it was the manipulation and using that as -- a way to, like, it was like Teflon. He used the money, used the foundation to -- not only cover for him but also destroy people.
COOPER: The sheer number of people who had a vested interest in protecting him -- whether companies or individuals hangers-on, other riders, I mean there was a whole industry sort of geared toward protecting him?
LEMOND: Yes, I never understood that. I actually -- when I race I'd believed that rules, you know, a sponsor, if I am -- doping and I'm positive I would lose that sponsor. I would get kicked out of the sport. That's what I think a lot of riders believed, but that changed. It began so rampant in the '90s.
But Armstrong I think came in with a perfect opportunity where there was a huge drug scandal in 1998. They found 1,000 ampules of drugs in a car. Tour de France came to its knees. When he came back, the cancer story, everything it was like, he had brought life back to the sport. But it was a false hope.
COOPER: In 2001, you said if Lance is clean it is the greatest come back in the history of sports, if he wasn't it would be the greatest fraud. Do you think what Lance Armstrong did was the greatest fraud?
LEMOND: Absolutely. Absolutely. The greatest fraud was that -- I mean, I know his physical capability. He is a top 30 at best at best, no matter what. If he was clean, everybody was clean, he is top 30 at best. He is not capable of -- not capable of the top five.
COOPER: Is it true that he threatened you by saying that he would say that you used EPO?
LEMOND: He offered $300,000 to a teammate to say that I took EPO and the guy refused. And this is a guy could use the money.
COOPER: Why did he go after you?
LEMOND: He is a bully. He is a thug to me. I am one that wouldn't put up with it.
COOPER: When Lance Armstrong says, look, everybody was doing this. I was just trying to even the playing field?
LEMOND: He wasn't. He couldn't race on an even playing field that's why he bribed the governing body.
COOPER: What do you think should happen to him now?
LEMOND: This is not a sporting infraction. This is criminal.
COOPER: You think he should go to jail?
LEMOND: I do. Yes. Yes. There is a point when there are people that are just not good. I'm sorry there are people, criminals that shouldn't be able to participate again in anything. It's like Bernie Madoff. Should he be allowed to come in and be part of Wall Street managing money? No. He shouldn't. That's what Armstrong. He shouldn't be allowed to be back in the sport.
COOPER: Greg Lemond, it's really an honor to meet you. Thank you.
LEMOND: All right, thank you. Thanks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Coming up tonight, a shocking attack. A killer whale, drowns, mauls its trainer in front of horrified guests at Sea World. It wasn't the first time the killer whale killed someone. Did captivity actually drive the whale to do this? We have the story behind it in a controversial documentary "Black Fish" ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Later this week, CNN is going to air a television premier of a fascinating documentary "Black Fish," which tells the story of the Sea World trainer that was killed by a 12,000-pound orca named Tilicom in 2010. Now the documentary talks about orcas in general how they live when they are not in captivity. Take a look at the clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD GARRETT, ORCA RESEARCHER: They live in these big families and they have life spans very similar to human life spans. The females can live to about 100, maybe more, males, to about 50 or 60, but the adult offspring never leave their mother's side. Each community has a completely different set of behaviors. Each has a complete repertoire of vocalizations with no overlap. You can call them languages, the scientific community is reluctant to say any other animal, but humans use languages there is every indication that they use languages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, the film raises provocative questions about whether killer whales by all accounts were intelligent, very social animals as you heard should be kept in captivity at all. Martin Savidge has this report on the controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sea World Orlando, 2010, in front of horrified visitors, veteran trainer, Dawn Branshaw was dragged into the water, mauled and drowned by the killer whale she worked with for years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of a sudden the whale just latched onto her and took her under.
SAVIDGE: It's more than a tragedy. It's a turning point. In its wake, the Occupational Safety Health Administration orders Sea World to keep trainers out of the water with its star performers. High- flying days like these are over. Sea World turned down our repeated request for interviews.
But in an op-ed noted its staff has been interacting with captive killer whales daily for nearly 50 years. The tragedy of Dawn's death cannot and has not been ignored. But neither should the literally millions of safe interactions we have had with killer whales over that span of time.
But critics say there have been many incidents suggesting otherwise. Videos clips of captive killer whales gone wild are easily found on the web.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is pulled under, helpless as the whale drags him below.
SAVIDGE: Killer whales, orcas are not whales but dolphins. Animal activists claim they're too intelligent, too socially dependent on their families and just too big for captivity. Neuroscientist Lori Merino says they are one of the few creatures besides us that are self aware and blames their aggression in captivity on a basic problem they're stir crazy.
LORI MERINO, NEUROSCIENTIST: This is not an individual, not a being that is going to be appropriately stimulated by throwing a hoop in the water or doing stupid pet tricks.
SAVIDGE: Sea World says it continually provides its killer whales a simulating and challenging environment and as for understanding them, Sea World says much of what we know today came from studying captive orcas. Marine Veterinarian Greg Bossart studies bottle the nosed dolphins by comparing the health of those in captivity against those in the wild he says we can learn problems in the ocean.
GREG BOSSART, MARINE VETERINARIAN: There are emerging diseases that we are seeing. New viruses we are seeing. Things like antibiotic resistant bacteria in these dolphins, which is a direct spin-off from pollution from man.
SAVIDGE: Former trainer Colin Baird agrees captivity has taught us a lot about killer whales, but believes now we have learned enough and should let them go.
(on camera): Why do you think they're still in captivity?
COLIN BAIRD, FORMER KILLER WHALE TRAINER: Well, there is dollars to be made and, you know, big draw for the facilities that have them.
SAVIDGE: It is a business.
BAIRD: It is a business. Yes.
SAVIDGE: Well, the issue of captivity is certainly debatable. What isn't, is the popularity of places like these, zoos and aquariums set new attendance records almost every year.
(voice-over): Sea World Entertainment's parks pull in 11 million visitors and $1.5 billion a year. Supporters say there is a lot more to it than just entertainment. Performances educate and inspire.
PAUL BOYLE, ASSOCIATE OF ZOOS AND AQUARIUMS: People are having less and less daily encounter with animals. So, these are kind of exhibits are teaching people about the wild. If people don't know animals, they won't care about them.
SAVIDGE: Unfortunately, opponents say, audiences are not the only ones held captive by the show.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Martin joins me now live. Sea World wouldn't talk to you. Did they give you any reason why?
SAVIDGE; No, they said, Anderson, that they didn't want to do anything that would be seen as promoting a film that they think sensationalizes and profits from the death of one of their employees. A lot of their supporters we talked to are really shocked by this. Because they say, look, if Sea World believes in what it is doing, itch it f it thinks the documentary is flawed it should speak out. It didn't. We tried our best to tell their side of the story. Despite our repeated attempts, all we got was silence.
COOPER: All right, Martin, appreciate the reporting, thanks. Be sure to tune in for CNN Film's "Black Fish" this Thursday, 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific here on CNN. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We do a lot of reporting on this program about charities for veterans that don't live up to their promises. Charities that raise millions, but give next to nothing to the vets they claim to be helping. Tonight, some good news about a group that helps vets, last night, I had the honor of emceeing a very special event here in New York. It was a ceremony for an organization that pairs veterans with PTSD with service dogs.
The cool thing about this is the service dogs have been raised by inmates in correctional facilities. The organization that makes this possible is called "Puppies Behind Bars." I'm happy to say "Puppies Behind Bars" receives exceptional marks from Charitynavigator.org. Last night, three veterans graduated from the program along with new their service dogs, Jeffrey Poor with his dog, Castle, Jeffrey Cortright and his dog, Bentley and Cory Peron with his dog, Anderson.
I was honored that one of the dogs was named after me. Veteran Kevin Brakney was also recognized for the progress he has made so far with his dog, Nima, by his side. And Shaplain Karen Hollid and her dog, Zoe, were recognized for their service in Afghanistan. The dogs learned 90 different commands and are taught how to salute.
That's Anderson as a puppy saluting right there. There are many kinds of bravery these service members have shown. They were brave to join the military, brave to serve overseas and brave to seek help when they returned home. It was a privilege to be on the same stage as well.
All of us here wish them and their four-legged battle buddies well in the days ahead. That does it for us. We'll see you again one hour from now at 10:00 p.m. Eastern for our panel discussion show "AC 360 LATER." Check out our live webcast before "AC 360 LATER" on ac360.com starting about 15 minutes at 9:15 p.m. "PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts now.
