Return to Transcripts main page

Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Interview with Jonathan Vilma and Chris Kluwe; Hillary Clinton on Monica Lewinsky; Giraffe Shot In The Head With A Rifle, Zoo Claims Concerns Over Inbreeding; "Loud Music" Murder Trial: Prosecution Rests, Defense Calls Witnesses

Aired February 10, 2014 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, a top NFL prospect says he's gay. So will it be a game changer in a league that is already under fire when it comes to tolerance?

We will speak exclusively to one player who has said it will not work and expressed fears over gays in the locker room.

Also tonight, what Hillary Clinton really thought of Monica Lewinsky. Unexplored documents tell a story of the first lady and the other women, including the one she called a narcissistic Looney Toon.

And later, kids love giraffes. So do lions. The question is, what on earth convinced a zoo that kids would love to see this giraffe shot, cut up, and fed to lions? Jack Hannah joins us and he can't understand this whole thing either.

There's that, plus and an exclusive "Keeping Them Honest" investigation on yet another so-called charity and what it did with people's money.

We begin, though, with 10 words that could change the face of pro- football.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL SAM, FORMER MISSOURI TIGERS DEFENSIVE END: I'm Michael Sam. I'm a -- I'm a football player, and I'm gay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That is Missouri all-American defensive end Michael Sam, speaking to "The New York Times" revealing what his teammates already knew and accepted, what his parents knew and accepted. He spoke to the "Times" over the weekend and told them why he went public.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM: I'm coming out because I want to own my truth. I'm comfortable who I am and I didn't want anyone to break a story that without me telling it. And I want to tell it the way I want to tell it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: So now that he has, the reaction in the NFL, where he is expected to be a mid to low round draft pick, appears to depend on whether that reaction is by name or not.

Yesterday the League tweeted, "We admire Michael Sam's honesty and courage. Michael is a football player. Any player with ability and determination can succeed in the NFL. We look forward to welcoming and supporting Michael Sam in 2014."

So there's that, but on the other hand, what allowed to remain anonymous, NFL executives and coaches told "Sports Illustrated" a much different story. One said the League just isn't ready, maybe in the coming decade or two, he said. Another doubt of the maturity of players especially in the locker room. Something the New Orleans Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma echoed in a recent interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN VILMA, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS LINEBACKER: I think that he would not be accepted as -- as much as we think he would be accepted. I don't want people to just naturally assume, like, oh, we're homophobic. It's really not the case. Imagine if he's the guy next to me, and, you know, I get dressed, naked, taking a shower, the whole nine, and it just so happens, he looks at me. How am I supposed to respond?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Another NFL executive quoted anonymously in "Sports Illustrated" said the presence of a gay player would, quote, "imbalance an NFL locker room chemically." To which "New York Times" columnist Frank Bruni today replied in so many words, "Get over it."

Bruni writes, "It's a locker room, for heaven's sake. Not last call at the Rawhide."

So joining us now only on 360 is Jonathan Vilma who you heard from a short time ago. He was the one talking about being looked at in the shower.

Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it.

VILMA: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: So less than two weeks ago, this was before Michael Sam's announcement, you said that a gay player would not be accepted as much as we think he would be accepted. Why not?

VILMA: Right. Well, I think that you have a gay player as Michael Sam who has come out, and he's done a tremendous job, it says a lot about his character and who he is as a person. It's a simple change, people are resistant to change at times. And it's not just as simple as coming into a locker room. So my words, it was a poor illustration of the example I was trying to give on the context. So I do apologize for that. I was trying to explain that whenever you have change into something that's been set in stone for so long, or you've had something that's been going for so long, that change always comes with a little resistance. And it was a poor choice of an example that I used, so I do apologize for that. But I was trying to explain that whenever you present someone like a Michael Sam, who is extremely, extremely confident and a powerful man in himself, with his own -- within his own right, into an NFL culture that's used to one thing, there's going to naturally be that first level, first wave of resistance before you have the transition.

BERMAN: What specifically about this change do you think will lead to the resistance?

VILMA: Yes. Because you have many different dynamics within the locker room. You have people that can be more outgoing, more open minded. You have people that are a little more closed minded. Some people grew up with or without the acceptance of gays within their families. You have a lot of different elements within the locker room, that you just don't see right now.

Me being on the inside for 10 years, inside the locker room, I've been around that, and it's not to say that locker rooms are bad, it's to say that there are going to -- there are going to be people that accept it willingly as soon as he comes in, welcome him with open arms, and then unfortunately, there will be some -- I'm about 99 percent sure the minority will say, well, they're not comfortable with that yet. They don't know how to respond to that.

And that's just what's going to happen in the first, whatever, year, two years. You have more players like Michael Sam coming out and saying that they're gay. The transition will be a lot smoother.

BERMAN: You talked about the showers, Jonathan. And this is a subject that does come up quite a bit.

VILMA: Yes.

BERMAN: You said, you know, if I'm naked in the shower, what if he looks at me, how am I supposed to react?

VILMA: Right.

BERMAN: What's your concern there?

VILMA: Right. No, there is no concern. The -- again, the point I was trying to make or the context I was trying to take it in is that I've never been put in that situation. No player in the NFL has been put in that situation, so it's not as simple as anyone saying, well, there's nothing wrong with it. I don't see anything wrong with it. You have other players that may, you have other players that may not. I don't know, and the players don't know, because this is the first time that you have a Michael Sam who will, by all accounts be drafted, openly gay, come into a locker room, knowing in the NFL for the past however many years has experienced it this before. So this is all new to everybody, this is new territory. BERMAN: Well, Jonathan, let's just take you here. You played 10 years. There are what? Fifty-three players on a team?

VILMA: Yes.

BERMAN: You've showered every day after practice.

VILMA: Yes.

BERMAN: You've showered with literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of men.

VILMA: Yes.

BERMAN: You really think none of them have been gay?

VILMA: Yes. You know, that's the funny thing about it. I look back at my transcripts when I -- when I was interviewed by Andrea Kramer and she said that. She said, you really don't think anyone is gay? And I said, of course. Odds are that you have 2 percent, 5 percent of the locker room is gay. And she said, well, do you think they're looking at you? I was like, I'm not that good looking, so I don't think they're looking at me.

And that's not the in or there. So I'm well aware that the stats say that, but the facts are that no player before Michael Sam has come out before getting drafted or during his career in the NFL and openly said I am gay. And that, I'm sticking strictly to that context.

BERMAN: You think there is concern about the showers though? About being looked at? I mean, you say, as far as you know --

VILMA: No, as I --

BERMAN: Go ahead.

VILMA: Yes -- no. As I said, that was just a very poor example and -- again, that was a poor example on my part which is why I'm glad I'm able to actually clarify that. That's just a poor example of me trying to show the bigger picture which is the dynamics of the locker room from every level where we're literally there for about 12, 13 hours a day, and we're around us, men, guys, straight, gay, religious, non-religious, whatever it is, we're just around each other for extended periods of time.

And there is a dynamic that gets developed and there's a culture that gets developed. It can either be a winning culture or a losing culture. For me, as I also told Andrea Kramer in that interview, as long as he can play football, I am A-OK with it.

BERMAN: What about --

VILMA: It doesn't bother me at all.

BERMAN: What about the locker room culture might make it difficult for a gay athlete or a Michael Sam? VILMA: Well, the culture in the locker room, I don't think will make it difficult for a guy like Michael Sam. Again, Michael Sam you can tell is extremely comfortable, extremely confident in himself. He's a very good football player. So there is nothing for him to be worried about. He's going to step in and he's going to play football and he's going to -- he's going to be a football. That's exactly what he is.

For other guys who may not be as strong minded, strong willed, as a Michael Sam, they may be a little timid, and then there may be times where they don't know how to react or assert themselves or whatever the situation is.

BERMAN: So I know you went to Miami, right, Jonathan? But Missouri is a pretty good school also. And his teammates, his coaches, Michael Sam's coaches knew all season. Yes, he sees a pretty good conference there. It's almost like pro-football. If he can succeed --

VILMA: Yes.

BERMAN: -- in a season playing in the SEC, you know, why on earth couldn't he succeed with flying colors playing in the NFL?

VILMA: I believe he will succeed playing in the NFL. I don't think that he won't succeed. I think that he's going to do very well. Again, you have -- of course, we look at the football player, but then you look at him as a person, his character, and for him to come out and be as strong as he is and strong willed and strong minded as he is, one he's a leader so I think those are all pluses for him when you have GMs, you have scouts looking at him.

And then he can play football. So you have these dynamics of him as a person, these characteristics, I think they're going to -- they're going to bode very well in the NFL.

BERMAN: All right. I want to bring in a slightly different perspective here. Former Minnesota Vikings punter Chris Kluwe, who is also an ambassador for the LGBT group Athlete Ally.

VILMA: Yes.

BERMAN: And author of the book "Beautiful, Unique Sparkleponies."

Now, Chris, you have been an outspoken supporter of same-sex marriage. You've spoken out for gay rights in the NFL. You've also said that your outspoken support for same-sex marriage may have cost you your job in the NFL.

So I want to ask you to look at this from that perspective right there. I know you've been very supportive of Michael Sam. But if you think that you were run out of the NFL before your support for same- sex marriage, don't you think it will be tough for a gay football player?

CHRIS KLUWE, AUTHOR, "BEAUTIFUL UNIQUE SPARKLEPONIES": Yes, I mean there -- I actually agree with Jonathan that there will be people who don't get it, who don't understand, you know, why, why you shouldn't discriminate against someone. But I think that that is the minority in terms of the locker room, in terms of the players, and it may be a vocal minority, maybe people you hear from, but everything I've seen in the last eight years that I've been in the league, is that that is shifting towards more tolerance and more acceptance.

And really, players don't sign player's paychecks, it's coaches and administrators that sign your paychecks, and I think that's where the issues you run into, which is what you see in the "Sports Illustrated" story. You have -- you have the older guard, this older generation way of looking at things, and they don't understand that a football player goes out to play football. And like Jon said in the locker room, we're around each other the entire day.

We see each other more than we see our own families. So you develop bonds with guys, and we'll be fine as players. It's not players you have to worry about, it's coaches and front office.

BERMAN: What about those coaches? Because that "Sports Illustrated" article quote, I guess not necessarily coaches, but also personnel managers who say that they have concerns. They don't think that Michael Sam will fit in right away. CBS, their sports commentary online says that his draft prospects have -- draft prospects had dropped like 70 slots over night because of this new information.

You think this hurts his prospects in the NFL, Chris?

KLUWE: Well, I think it honestly does, and I think it's unfortunate that that's the case because it shouldn't hurt his draft prospects what his sexuality is. Just like it shouldn't hurt someone's draft prospects what their religion is, or what the color of their skin is. I mean, the ultimate goal of this nation is that everyone has freedom to pursue their own life, and Michael Sam wants to be a football player.

That's what he wants to do, and it shouldn't matter, you know, what his sexuality is. And I think it's unfortunate that right now we're still in that transition process where yes, it probably will hurt his draft status, but he's making a key step forward so that in the future it won't hurt other guy's draft status. You know, they'll be able to be openly gay. They'll be able to be who they are, and it really won't be a story, it will be a nonissue.

BERMAN: Jonathan, Chris says that things have changed or are changing over the last several years and continue to change at this very minute. Your position, your words at least, seem to have changed over the last few weeks. So now as a captain on your team, what would you say to your teammates were Michael Sam drafted by the Saints?

VILMA: There's really nothing to say. The first thing that matters is, can he play football? So when he steps into the locker room, he steps on the field my concern is getting him lined up and making sure that he knows the call, and he can go out there and play football. And he can play to our ability or to our expectations.

So for me as a captain, it's really about holding everybody accountable to the level that we -- that we said, I think that the Saints have done a good job, holding players to a standard. We've been in the playoffs for the last -- we've had some good runs in the playoffs these last four or five years, and it's really about keeping the culture the way it is, where it's a very productive culture. It's worried about production on the field as opposed to everything else.

We call it the white noise, anything that's not concerned with football throughout the season. So we would take an easy backseat to worrying about is Michael Sam gay, he's not gay, whatever the situation is, we know he's gay. Is he a good football player? Yes or no? And that's what we worry about.

BERMAN: Well, we will see. The draft coming up this spring.

Jonathan Vilma, Chris Kluwe, thank you so much for being with us tonight, I really appreciate it.

KLUWE: Yes, thanks for having us on.

VILMA: Thank you.

BERMAN: So up next for us, what did Hillary Clinton think of Monica Lewinsky -- really at the time? And her husband's motivation for having an affair with Monica Lewinsky.

See what forgotten papers from the first lady's close friend now reveal.

And later, sure, it's the circle of life. But why did the zoo have to make it a show for the kiddies, and what move them to sacrifice an otherwise healthy giraffe in the process?

We're going to be joined by animal expert Jack Hanna who is furious.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right, the latest case now of history coming around again and the same names resurfacing concerns Hillary Clinton. And notably her thoughts on Monica Lewinsky, the intern who briefly struck the then President Clinton's fancy.

The revelations come in papers from a late close friend of the first lady, Diane Blair. The documents which reside at the University of Arkansas were first made public in 2010, but few people took notice. In one of them, written in September of 1998 at the height of the Lewinsky scandal, Blair writes about how her friend Hillary viewed the infidelity.

She writes, "It was a lapse, but she says to his credit, he tried to break it off. Tried to pull away, tried to manage someone who was clearly a narcissistic Loony Toon. But it was beyond control." Blair also writes that the first lady suggested the infidelity stemmed from the personal toll the death of her mother, her father and their friend Vince Foster had taken on Mr. Clinton among other things.

In a moment, Hillary Clinton biographer Carl Bernstein joins us, but first, Randi Kaye on more of the history that's resurfacing today and probably will yet again if Hillary Clinton decides to run for president.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This embrace from 1996 may be our only glimpse inside the bizarre relationship between then President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. Lewinsky had joined the White House as an intern the year before. She was 21.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you have any anything to say to the president?

KAYE: In January 1998, various media outlets got wind of her affair with the president. And the secretly recorded tapes detailing the encounters. But President Clinton publicly denied it. First Lady Hillary Clinton standing stone faced at his side.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me, I'm going to say this again. I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.

KAYE: By the very next morning, Hillary Clinton's PR campaign was in full swing, smiling for the cameras and defending her husband. First on NBC's "Today" show. Calling the accusation a feeding frenzy. And blaming it on a vast right-wing conspiracy.

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER FIRST LADY: I think the important thing now is to stand as firmly as I can and say that, you know, the president has denied these allegations on all counts unequivocally, and we'll see how this plays out.

KAYE: Then on ABC's "Good Morning America." Calling the allegations false. Saying she's sure her husband had told her the whole story.

CLINTON: And I know that the American people will eventually know the story. I really just want everybody to take a deep breath and relax and just, you know, sit back because here they come again.

KAYE: Mrs. Clinton promised in her interviews the truth would come out, and it did. President Clinton spoke to the American people from the White House in August that year about seven months after his wife declared to the world he'd done nothing wrong. He admitted just the opposite.

B. CLINTON: Indeed I did have a relationship with Miss Lewinsky that was not appropriate. In fact it was wrong.

KAYE (on camera): In December that year, the House of Representatives voted to impeach President Clinton, accusing him of lying under oath, abusing presidential power to conceal a sexual relationship and obstructing justice. The president was acquitted by the Senate.

(Voice-over): Four years later in 2003, the former first lady spoke to ABC's "20/20," breaking her silence and sharing her feelings about the affair on television for the first time. H. CLINTON: I was furious, I was dumbfounded. I was, you know, just beside myself with anger and disappointment. You know, I couldn't imagine how he could have done that to me or to anyone else.

KAYE: In 2008 the former first lady opened up to talk show host Tyra Banks.

H. CLINTON: You know, you're mad, you're really upset, you're disappointed, all of that goes through your mind. But I have found you really shouldn't make decisions in the heat of those moments.

KAYE: Decisions and declarations that are now making headlines again.

Randi Kaye, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Our thanks to Randi for that. But some additional context now.

Investigative reporter Carl Bernstein has written what is considered one of the definitive biographies of Hillary Clinton, a woman in charge. And we're happy to welcome him as a CNN contributor.

So, Carl, you got to know Diane Blair for your book, you spoke to her. You even looked through a lot of her notes. A lot of the information here is not new, some of the words, though, that we're seeing today really for the first time are new. She called Monica Lewinsky -- Hillary did here -- according to these notes, a "narcissistic Looney Toon."

Now that sentiment might not be new, but the words are. What was Hillary Clinton going through when she said that? Calling Monica Lewinsky a narcissistic Looney Toon?

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Let's back up a little and take a look at what these supposed revelations are because almost all of what I've read so far is not very revealing in terms of new information. What we have here is a lack of context in the presentation of this material today, particularly by right-wing Web sites, by Clinton acolytes coming out to defend Hillary. So we're back into combat. And without too much context and without too much helpful information.

So I think we've got to put everything in that light. And then go on from there. Looney Toons, if you read my book, if you read other accounts, Hillary was quite valuable on the subject of Monica Lewinsky. She called her narcissistic, I don't know if I used that word in my book. I'd have to go through the whole book. But she called her a stalker. That's what Bill had told her originally, that she was stalking him.

You know, Hillary Clinton believed her husband up until two days before the special prosecutor interviewed him, many months later. She believed that Bill Clinton had not had sex with that woman.

BERMAN: And you know -- BERNSTEIN: And he continued to tell her that.

BERMAN: So it's not just these documents which are being dredged up again in some cases or seen for the first time in other cases here. There are people talking now about both Clintons fairly actively, Republicans like Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, who's talking about the Lewinsky affair again, saying that Hillary shouldn't accept money in some ways from Bill Clinton. That Bill Clinton, what he did is tantamount to being a sexual predator in the White House.

You're starting to see Republicans talking about this now. Are you saying that that will make the Clintons wary about maybe another run?

BERNSTEIN: First of all, it's inevitable and very useful for Republicans to be making that kind of talk. And also, I believe, and I've talked to some people about this, that one of Senator Paul's objectives might be to try and keep Hillary from running, by getting this stuff out there now, and making things uncomfortable for the Clintons and making them confront these questions now very early with the hope that she wouldn't run because she's obviously, in many ways, the most formidable Democratic candidate.

BERMAN: I think this is a story we'll be talking about for a long, long time.

Carl Bernstein, thank you very much for being with us. Appreciate it.

BERNSTEIN: Sure. Thanks.

BERMAN: Just ahead for us, a young healthy giraffe is killed, cut up and fed to lions in front of an audience full of children. The zoo is now facing a firestorm.

Also ahead, dramatic testimony today about the gunshot wounds that killed Florida teenager Jordan Davis, allegedly after an argument over loud music.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: The outrage has escalated to death threats. That's right. Death threats against some of the staff at the Copenhagen Zoo. So by now you've probably heard about Marius the giraffe. He was shot dead yesterday by a veterinarian. Marius wasn't sick, he wasn't old. He was, in the zoo director's words, part of a surplus problem.

The zoo said it had too many giraffes with the same genes. Marios was killed to avoid inbreeding. That's the scientific rationale they gave.

But it's what happened next that really stoke a lot of this outrage. An autopsy was done in front of an audience that included children. Marios' body was cut into pieces. We are going to show what the zoo did with the meat, but we warn you, these images are disturbing. Marios was fed to the zoo's lions and to the other big cats there, again, all this in front of children. The zoo called it a learning opportunity. Jack Hanna is the director emeritus at the Columbus Zoo, he joins me tonight. Jack, most of the times we speak with you it's a feel good animal story, but I spoke to you earlier today and I've never heard you are so upset about anything. You say this is one of the most horrifying things you've ever heard about in your entire life.

JACK HANNA, DIRECTOR EMERITUS, COLUMBUS ZOO: It is. It is grotesque, abominable, insensitive, and I could go on with the words, but let's let that go right now. It's unbelievable. Why is that? I just heard an interview where the person said this is maybe a cultural difference. No, this isn't a cultural difference. In other countries they do have giraffes as a consumption food. But that's in people that way out in the middle of nowhere.

This is in a zoological part where animals are there to educate our young people and adults, all of us, educate all of us about this beautiful animal, whatever animal it might be. There were hundreds of people that want to take this giraffe including myself at our zoo and/or the wilds, and/or many people in Europe. You tell me why they did this. I don't think anybody can tell you why, I can't.

BERMAN: You said this kept you up at night. The zoo says it was to prevent inbreeding. They do say they have a scientific reason. They say they need to manage the population in the right way of the giraffe at this zoo and others in Europe.

HANNA: That's exactly correct. If they have too many giraffes, like they are saying, right? Why do they keep bringing the same genetic line? Why do they do that, number one? Number two, if they do have the giraffes, they don't want to breed and stop it, it's very simple, there's castration, birth control, some may tell you can't do that to giraffes, fine.

They don't do it in the wild and we never will. We could find a home for this giraffe very easily and so can they over there. One man offered a half a million dollars to save this giraffe and give him a home. So what are they doing here? Maybe I can't figure it out after all these years working with animals because right now it's hard for me to give you an answer.

Especially taking it and they shot it, that's great. I think from what we saw in the pictures, they cut it up and they did an autopsy. Why do an autopsy? They took it next door and fed it to the lions.

BERMAN: The head of the zoo says this was meant to be educational. A little earlier today he spoke to our Brooke Baldwin. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENGT HOLST, SCIENTIFIC DIRECTOR, COPENHAGEN ZOO: This is the real thing and when we then feed it to the lions afterwards either we feed them a horse or a cow. They have to get their meat. They are carnivorous and now we could feed them a giraffe. I don't see any problem in that. I mean, this is what's happening in Africa. I think that kids need to see sometimes what the real world is. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So let's just review, they shot the giraffe in the head. They cut it up and fed it to the lions and the leopards. It sounds horrible when you say it like that, but in a way, Jack, isn't just the circle of life? A nature show, they show on National Geographic where the animals are getting eaten and killed by the lions and tigers?

HANNA: Right. I can't say I can't argue that point what you see on National Geographic. You see once or twice on my show. We're not going to be doing that, we haven't done it for years. You'll see some clips down the line. What he's saying is, these are young people, yes, and it is nature. Don't you think we ought to educate people about why it's important to have the giraffe?

A lot of people don't understand. They're much endangered, OK? To me, that's a weak point of educating young people about they have an animal there that might pass on, that they do take out and feed to their cats privately or whatever they want to do, that's up to them, OK? I disagree with the fact that that's anything about education.

BERMAN: Jack, you seem deeply and even personally offended by this. I'm wondering if you can explain just why?

HANNA: Because I work so hard and so do all the zoos in this country to bring the zoological world to people. When we spend tens of millions of dollars on habitats for the polar bear, $26 million we're spending to show the beautiful giraffes out there. We have a hand feeding place where kids go out there and hand feed the giraffes with carrots and things like that, what a beautiful animal. That's how I want them to remember the giraffes, they want to love something and save something. We're trying to educate people, if you don't see something and love something, you can't save something.

BERMAN: This kept you up last night?

HANNA: You know something, I've had things that bothered me in my life, and this is one of the top five. When I was told my daughter had brain tumors, the top five things that ever affected me, the Zanesville incident, we had to shoot 48 animals because they escaped. The top five things in my life at my age, as far as the animal world is concerned, I can't even compare this, in our country, we don't do that, we don't ever intend to do that, we're there to educate you and educate people about these beautiful creatures God gave us, that's what we're there for.

BERMAN: Jack Hanna, thanks so much for being with us. Really appreciate it.

HANNA: Thank you.

BERMAN: Up next, defense witnesses testify for Michael Dunn in his loud music murder trial. Not before the parents of his young victim left the courtroom.

Also Drew Griffin goes on the hunt for $40 million worth of medicine allegedly donated. He didn't actually reach the people who need it, we're keeping them honest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: "Crime and Punishment" tonight, the murder trial of Michael Dunn in Florida, prosecutors rested their case today, the defense called witnesses. Dunn is charged with first degree murder in the shooting death of 17-year-old Jordan Davis in a confrontation at a gas station. Now, he admits he shot the teen in a dispute over loud music, but claims he fired in self-defense. He said he thought he saw a shotgun in the SUV Davis was riding in. No weapon was ever found. CNN's Martin Savidge was inside the courtroom today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The details about the shooting of Jordan Davis were so intense his parents for the first time had to leave the courtroom. Jurors were shown photographs, x- rays in the blood stained clothes, the 17-year-old was wearing when he was killed. The prosecution's final witness, former Associate Medical Examiner Stacy Simmons, testifying Davis was shot three times, twice in the leg, but it was a bullet to the abdomen that killed him.

STACY SIMMONS, FORMER ASSOCIATE MEDICAL EXAMINER: Right about here is where the bullet entered. It entered at the actual border. Over here it perforated the right lung and continued on behind the heart and in front of the spinal column to perforate the aorta.

SAVIDGE: Simmons saying that as a result of the study of the wounds, Davis was leaning away from the door of the vehicle. And not trying to get out of the SUV as the defense suggests. Dunn's fiance took the stand Saturday, emotionally describing the events that led to Davis' death. After having a few drinks, they pulled into a parking lot at a gas station. She recalled Dunn being annoyed by the loud music coming from the vehicle. All of a sudden there was shooting.

She didn't see who was shooting, but returning to the car, she saw Dunn put a gun into the glove box, the couple never called 911, instead drove back to a hotel where Dunn mixed drinks and ordered pizza because her stomach was upset. The next morning the shooting was on the news.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you woke up, was the television on?

RHONDA ROUER, MICHAEL DUNN'S FIANCE: Yes, it was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you happen to see something on the news?

ROUER: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At that point in time, did you learn that a teenager had been killed at the gas station?

ROUER: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you tell the defendant you wanted to go home? ROUER: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you decide you all need to go home?

ROUER: Because I thought I was going to be arrested too.

SAVIDGE: But instead of contacting police, the couple drove back to their home in Satellite Beach, 130 miles away, where Dunn was later arrested. The defense called several of Dunn's friends to testify as character witnesses including Randy Berry, a flight instructor who taught Dunn how to fly airplanes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I always thought he was a gentle man.

SAVIDGE: A sentiment shared by Berry's wife who said she never saw anything from Dunn but a calm demeanor. Martin Savidge, CNN, Jacksonville.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: So let's talk more about this case with Sunny Hostin, a former federal prosecutor. She's in Jacksonville, Sunny has been in the courtroom monitoring this trial. So Sunny, thanks for being with us. Dunn of course claims he acted in self-defense. We just heard his fiance give that emotional testimony where she detailed how even after seeing the report on the news about the shooting, that neither she nor Dunn reported the shooting to the police. That doesn't seem to bode well for the defense.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It really doesn't. This is a huge problem for the defense in this case. That they sort of have been dancing around. Let's face it, it is clear from the prosecution's case that Michael Dunn shot the car ten times, and after that, got into the car and drove away. After driving away, what did he do? He basically had some pizza, watched a movie, had a drink and went to sleep.

That is going to be very difficult for the jury to overcome. Now what I've heard, John, is that tomorrow they are going to call a quote, "acute stress reaction expert." I've never heard of that kind of expert, my sense is, they are going to try to explain away that behavior as part of his reaction to the stressfulness of the shooting.

BERMAN: One of the other things they seem to be doing right now is giving defense witness testimony that he's a nice guy. They're putting up friends, the flight instructor of Michael Dunn who is a peaceful man. How is that playing in court?

HOSTIN: It wasn't playing very well. It really fell flat and that usually is the case with character witnesses. Unless you have someone that is a really strong character witness, let's say the childhood friend who has become the president of the United States to talk about what a wonderful person this is, it just doesn't bode well, and I was looking at the jury, John, and I think they found them to be pretty incredible, especially after cross-examination. And the prosecution did a pretty good job pointing out while they knew him. They really knew his parents and they weren't there the night this happened.

BERMAN: So given the character witness testimony seemed to be going well by your eyes. Given that there is still some discrepancies in the time line of the story there. Do you think there's a good chance that Dunn himself will have to testify in his own defense?

HOSTIN: You know, that is the million dollar question, John. That's the question that we've all been talking about today after court. I think he has to testify and let me tell you why, bottom line is, he has alleged and his lawyer talked about this in opening statements, that this was a self-defense case, that he saw a gun he may have seen a pipe. Guess what?

No one has testified to that, the only person at this point that can testify to that is Michael Dunn. I think the prosecution in this case really learned from the Zimmerman case, and so no video interrogation of Michael Dunn telling his story is in evidence. The only way to prove self-defense at this point is to have Michael Dunn testify.

When I was in court right before the end of the day, the defense indicated that they had one or maybe two witnesses pending, Angela Cory, when going over the jury instructions, the defense wanted to go over it, the self-defense instruction. She made it clear that it would be inappropriate to go over that instruction unless there was evidence of self-defense. I suspect we're going to hear from Michael Dunn tomorrow.

BERMAN: That could be as soon as tomorrow. Sunny Hostin, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Up next, we're back on the charity money trail, keeping them honest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: "Keeping Them Honest," tonight, we're trying to track down more than $40 million worth of medicine that more than a dozen U.S. charities claim to have sent to one of the world's poorest countries, Guatemala. We've reported on some of these groups in the past. Remember those coconut M&Ms that a veteran's charity unloaded on a small Alabama veteran's center?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. SIMPSON, SAINT BENEDICT'S VETERANS CENTER: We got bags of coconut M&Ms. We didn't have a lot of use for 11,000 bags of coconut M&Ms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: What about that one finger salute that the president of an Arizona breast cancer charity gave us when we wanted to ask a question? Well, now, we have questions for them in nearly 15 other charities. Our partners at the "Tampa Bay Times" and the Center for Investigative Reporting have helped prepare this report. Here's CNN's Drew Griffin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you believe their paperwork, 15 little known U.S. charities that have had very little, if anything to do with international aid, sent $40 million in medicines to Guatemala in 2010. Which charities? Well, if you've been watching, you've seen them before, the breast cancer society in Arizona, with its finger waving president who earns $261,000 a year, and his stepmother who runs a cancer charity for children in Knoxville, Tennessee. Her name is Rose Perkins. She earns $227,000 a year. But declined to tell us where all the millions in her donations go.

(on camera): Hi. Is Rose Perkins in?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's not available and she's not doing interviews.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): These two charities and 13 others all claim to have sent massive quantities of medicine to Guatemala, one of the poorest countries in Central America. Despite the substantial size of the donations, the Internal Revenue Service doesn't require charities to publicly disclose details about the shipments and no one including the U.S. charities and the biggest recipient in Guatemala was willing to be specific about where the drugs went or exactly who benefited.

So we tried to do something state regulators and the IRS rarely are able to do, go to Guatemala, try to find evidence of even one shipment of medicine that quite frankly, local Guatemalan relief agencies say would have made a huge difference.

(on camera): Have you ever seen a million dollars' worth of stuff?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not in our world.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): The organization that accepted the medical shipments in Guatemala, the Order of Malta wouldn't talk to us. But for a sign in an office building, it was hard to find evidence in Guatemala that the group even existed.

(on camera): So the order is based not here, but in a home?

So I mean, you can see how confusing this is. This is Order of Malta office, but the office there's a business office, the Ambassador is not here. We've been trying to reach him. He's in town, he's out of town. He's in country. He's out of country. This organization has somehow distributing tens of millions of dollars in goods throughout the countryside of Guatemala. Nobody knows where.

(voice-over): When we tried to reach the headquarters for the Order of Malta in Rome our e-mails went unanswered. It's not the Order of Malta that we've claimed to have donated or even distributed $40 million in aid to this country. It is our 15 small charities back to the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This one comes from St. Cloud Minnesota. GRIFFIN: And charity groups who actually operate in Guatemala tell us if $40 million worth of medicine had shown up here? There is virtually no way it could not be noticed.

(on camera): Is he working with you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is one of the houses we've helped out with.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Richard Grinnell with Helps International has been working in Guatemala for 13 years, he's never heard of the Order of Malta here. In addition to helping poor Guatemalan villagers build these new smoke free stoves, they organize medical teams from the U.S. who conduct clinics across the countryside and $40 million worth of medicine in his word is unheard of.

RICHARD GRINNELL, HELPS INTERNATIONAL: In a year we'll carry out about 15,000 clinics, and doing about 1,300 operations, surgical operations.

GRIFFIN (on camera): Through that entire process, you're talking about $300,000?

GRINNELL: It's $350,000, yes, maybe worth of medicines, yes. So it's it has to be a huge organization.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): In a last effort to try to verify any of the alleged huge donations from the American charities, we traveled to the countryside and to the address of the warehouse where the medicines were supposedly restored. The guard would not allow us in without permission, and over the phone he was soon given the order to keep us out. Why? The man on the other end of the phone wouldn't tell us.

(on camera): I'm telling you, we cannot find it anywhere, and we cannot find any stamp of your work and we're just trying to get to the bottom of it. We're standing at a warehouse gate and no one will let us in.

(voice-over): We never got it, and never got an explanation where the 40 million in medicines went. What's this all about? The investigation shows how easily charities can take credit for good deeds abroad, but how difficult it can be to track their impact on the ground. Were the $40 million in donated medicines to Guatemala all just made up?

If anyone knows that answer it is these two men? Roy Tidwell, the head of Charity Services International, who runs a company that helps arrange charity shipments to far away locations and this man, Cliff Feldman, who comes up with the paperwork that claims the donated goods are worth millions.

According to sources, CNN has learned both men are under investigation by regulators from two states, who are asking the same questions CNN has been asking. If $40 million in donations is being reported to the IRS, where are they?

(END VIDEOTAPE) BERMAN: It's a great question. Drew joins us now. Drew, it just does seem inconceivable that $40 million worth of donations and medicine can simply go unnoticed. Is it something that happens in the world of charity?

GRIFFIN: Well, the accounting happening all the time incredibly often we see charities that have virtually nothing to do with foreign aid. They have everything to do with veteran services, dogs in the U.S., cancer society in the U.S., some kind of veterans groups, and all of a sudden, on their 990 tax forms, shows these million dollar donations to far flung places that you really can't track down whether it exists or not.

BERMAN: All right, Drew Griffin, it's a terrific report. Thank you so much for being on this for us. We'll be right back.