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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Protesters: Prosecutors Should Step Down From Case; U.S. Attempted Rescue of Hostages Including Foley
Aired August 20, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening from Ferguson tonight. A new witness speaks out about the encounter between Officer Darren Wilson and Michael Brown that ended with Michael Brown dead in a street just about three or four blocks from here and this small city in the national spotlight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL BRADY, SAW BROWN SHOOTING: By the time I gets outside, he's already turned around, facing the officer. He -- he's bold, though, he had his arms under like his stomach and he was like half way down like he was going down and the officer lets out about three or four shots at him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And as you know, there have been a lot of different eyewitness reports, each of them have slightly differences. This one you'll hear shortly coming up, that man is Michael Brady. He spoke with us on a day that saw the Attorney General Eric Holder meet here with top investigators and officials and especially Michael Brown's parent who will bury their son on Monday.
We're going to talk about his visit and the family's concern shortly. We'll also talk about concerns being expressed as we speak by protesters at the county prosecutor's office about his ability to prosecute this case and you'll hear more in just a short moment from Mr. Brady's account of the shooting, now one of many as 360's Randi Kaye reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A confrontation at Officer Darren Wilson's police car, then shots fired. For those who claim to know what happened to Michael Brown, that's about all they agree on. At least three eyewitnesses remember a scuffle at the officer's car. Though an anonymous woman who did not witness the shooting but is a friend of the officer's says Michael Brown was the aggressor, which CNN has confirmed matches the account Officer Wilson gave authorities.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael just bum-rushes and just shoves him back into his car, punches him in the face and then -- of course Darren grabs for his gun, Michael grabs the gun, shoves it away and the gun goes off. KAYE: Also in dispute was Brown shot from behind or was he charging
Officer Wilson? It's still unclear.
Tiffany Mitchell told CNN Brown was on the run.
TIFFANY MITCHELL, WITNESS TO MICHAEL BROWN SHOOTING: As he runs, the police get out of his vehicle and he follows behind him shooting and the kid body jerked as if he was hit from behind.
KAYE: This woman who took cell phone video of Brown's body in the street also told CNN that Brown was shot from behind.
PIAGET CRENSHAW, WITNESS TO MICHAEL BROWN SHOOTING: While he was running away from the officer, trying to get away, he was getting shot at.
KAYE: Dorian Johnson who was with Brown that day says Brown spun around after being shot.
DORIAN JOHNSON, WITNESS TO MICHAEL BROWN SHOOTING: He turned around with his hands up, beginning to tell the officer that he was unarmed and to tell him to stop shooting but at that time the officer was firing several more shots into my friend and he hit the Brown and died.
KAYE: In a new interview with "The New York Times," Johnson's lawyer, Freeman Bosley, Jr., said Brown's hands were, quote, "not that high." When NPR asked Bosley about Brown charging the officer, he explained it this way.
FREEMAN BOSLEY JR., ATTORNEY FOR DORIAN JOHNSON: Big Mike did fall forward, OK, so people may be able to infer that the officer may have thought he was charging but Big Mike, according to Dorian, did not charge the officer. He turned around, put his hands up.
KAYE (on camera): That's not exactly how the anonymous radio caller describes Brown's final moment. Josie said the officer yelled to Brown to freeze and that is when Brown turned around. In other words, he turned around before the officer started shooting. She said Brown then suddenly rushed at the officer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just started coming at him full speed and so he just started shooting and he just kept coming and then so he finally ended up -- the final shot was in the forehead.
KAYE (voice-over): Adding to the confusion, yet another anonymous witness who said he heard Brown screaming at the officer, "OK, OK, OK," with his hands up. That's when this witness says the officer fired six or seven shots into the teenager. Then laid his gun on the ground.
Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Certainly a lot we do not know. It's important to stress that over and over again.
It is just little past 7:00 p.m. here in Ferguson, still light but the light is going down, probably by the end of this hour.
The crowds have been pretty light throughout the day in this area. Certainly the lightest that we have seen in the past 10 days or so. There have been some smaller demonstrations elsewhere, as well, but as light -- and more people are starting to come here, people leave their jobs, people come here, there is a small group walking around as you know, the police insist that protesters continue to keep moving, not stand in anyone's spot.
This is a group of maybe 50 at the most protesters who are here carrying signs chanting and they are basically walking up and down a four or five block area. There is obviously heavy police presence as there always is but it's probably less noticeable than even last night. Police changing their tactics somewhat last night. They were more spread out, less police officers in tactical gear. Some violence did break out late at night, more than some 47 people were arrested but it was overall a far more peaceful evening than the previous evening was certainly.
I want to give you more now on Michael Brady's account of what happened. He's the eyewitness I spoke to just a short time ago and what it shares with and how it differs from other accounts.
Now as with other accounts, we're playing an extended clip of our interview with Mr. Brady who was within view of the shooting sight. Now remember, we have played -- we have given you many eyewitness accounts from people in the community, as well as from that radio caller, which supports the officer's account.
We're trying to collect as many as we can. You can judge for yourself the credibility of them and how their stories seem to contradict each other or validate each other.
We spoke just a short time ago to Mr. Brady. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So when did you first realize something was happening?
BRADY: This was a little bit after 11:30-ish. A friend of mine actually woke me up out of a nap. He comes over and I steps outside, waiting for like three to five minutes. After that I comes in, say something to my fiancee in the kitchen, then I goes into the bedroom but then at two minutes in the bedroom, I hear an altercation outside, and --
COOPER: What did you hear?
BRADY: Just some heavy struggling, you know, like a strong voice, like a strong voice. I'm not sure, you know, what words exchanged exactly but just a strong voice.
COOPER: Right. So what did you do then? BRADY: Actually so when I heard the altercation, I looks out the
window and I see somebody at Ferguson Police window, some kind of tussle going on here. So --
COOPER: So you saw somebody at the window of the police car?
BRADY: Yes.
COOPER: The police officer was still in the vehicle.
BRADY: Yes, inside the vehicle. So like I said, it was some kind of tussle going on. He also had a friend, also. He runs on the side of the car because all of a sudden, they just takes off running. Whatever --
COOPER: Did you --
BRADY: After the tussle.
COOPER: Right.
BRADY: They just takes off running.
COOPER: Now did you know Mike Brown?
BRADY: No, no.
COOPER: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
BRADY: I seen him. I seen him, you know, around or whatever. So.
COOPER: So if -- but it was Mike Brown at the vehicle?
BRADY: Yes.
COOPER: And you said there was a tussle. Was there -- how long did it go on for that you saw?
BRADY: Seconds, seconds. Ten seconds, I should say. So.
COOPER: Did you see --
BRADY: I didn't --
COOPER: What the tussle was around? Did you see -- was one person being pulled in or pulled out?
BRADY: No, he was just exactly at the window, I mean, maybe it looked like he was trying to get away or something.
COOPER: You couldn't tell exactly what was going on?
BRADY: Yes. Yes. Yes, but, you know, I just seen some kind of tussle going through the window. COOPER: OK.
BRADY: So -- but like I say, he has a friend also and he was standing like in the front of the police cruiser on the bumper side, on the passenger side but like five feet away from it, though. And like I said, all of a sudden they just take off running. Mr. Brown, he just runs directly down to the middle of the street and his friend is a car that was parked on the sidewalk, the Ferguson cop, his vehicle was on the middle of the street diagonal. So they say they take off running.
COOPER: Had there been a shot when there was still that tussle in the police car?
BRADY: I'm not -- I didn't hear the shot. I didn't hear the shot. Quite a few people that was around say they heard a shot go off in the car. Maybe --
COOPER: But the important thing is what you heard.
BRADY: Right. Right.
COOPER: You did not hear it?
BRADY: Right. So I didn't. I definitely didn't hear that.
COOPER: OK.
BRADY: So like I say, his friend takes off running and like I said, the parked car was on the side, on the side, on the sidewalk. And like I say, he just fired like five feet away from the police cruiser in the middle of the street. So like I said, they just takes off running and I see the officer gets out to the car, emerged and just immediately start shooting. So --
COOPER: You're saying he immediately started shooting. He didn't -- you're saying he didn't say anything, he didn't --
BRADY: Like I said, I didn't hear because everything, I'm still in the window.
COOPER: OK.
BRADY: I'm still in the window. So when he gets out the car, I see the first shot as Mr. Brown, like I said, he directly in the middle of the street running with his back turned running away at least probably, what, about 20 feet down. And his other friend he's around the corner, the trunk side of it.
So I see him, you know, looking up at the cop just to see where he's at but when he gets out the car, he lets out like one or two shots but at that time he's already past his own police vehicle and Mr. Brown friend where he ran to, he -- as he was in his gun shooting range, you know, position, he walked past the vehicle to where his friend ran to. So I think that the officer knew where his friend is but I'm just saying, it's showing me that he wasn't shooting at the friend.
COOPER: Did you see -- and you said there were one or two shots, you think?
BRADY: Yes. The very first one when he gets out.
COOPER: Did you see if Mike Brown was hit by any of those shots?
BRADY: No, I don't think he was -- maybe was at the time because like I said, he was 20, 25 feet down. So obviously, he was still running.
Right, because we don't know, the autopsy said there were at least six shots that hit Mike Brown but we don't know how many shots may have been fired, if there were other shots fired, if other bullet casings were collected we don't know.
BRADY: Right.
COOPER: So you said you heard one or two.
BRADY: Yes.
COOPER: Then what happened?
BRADY: I definitely seen one or two. So -- but like I say he still have his back turned and I noticed that he passed his friend up to where his friend ran to. So that's when I decided I'm going to run outside with my phone and see what I can get. So I runs outside so quick. By the time I gets outside, he's already turned around facing the officer. He -- he's balled up. He have his arms like under his stomach and he was like half way down like he was going down and the officer lets out about three or four shots at him.
So like I said, just like, just like the body, I took a few pictures and a video but how his body is on the ground just like with his arms tucked in, that's how he got shot or whatever. But like I said before he went down, he was already like this and he took like one or two steps going towards the officer and he, like I said, let go about three or four more shots at him.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You're saying -- it's your impression that he was essentially falling down onto the ground or going down ton out ground, not -- because there is an account by a friend or allegedly a friend of the officer who said that the officer is claiming and sources with the investigation back this up is what the officer's claim is Mike Brown was running toward the officer. Did you see him running toward the officer in any way?
BRADY: No, no, not after -- when he was running away, no, not at all. Like I said, by the time I come outside, I'm thinking that he's now hit after I seen the officer shooting at him while he was running away. So I'm thinking that he's hit because now he's turned around. Now like this, like he was going down. It didn't even look like that he was getting up. It just looked like, you know, I'm hit, you know, I'm going to go down now. That's what it looked like.
COOPER: That was your impression? BRADY: Yes, yes.
COOPER: So from what you saw, there weren't hands up or anything --
BRADY: Yes, I really -- that's the thing. I didn't -- I didn't see no hands up. I probably just missed it from going out from my bedroom going outside.
COOPER: Right. There was a gap in what you saw.
BRADY: Yes. Yes.
COOPER: Because you were running --
BRADY: Yes. And then -- on top of that, and there was also a gap from the officer pausing as he was shooting because like I say, I'm in the window and he shoots a couple of times and by the time I gets outside, he's shooting again. So I really didn't hear a shot between a run. He probably did, you know, maybe he --
COOPER: So you don't know that for a fact.
BRADY: Yes.
COOPER: This entire thing about how quickly did -- from the time you first heard what sounded like a tussle and started seeing that tussle to the time Mike Brown was down on the ground, how long do you think?
BRADY: Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm, it was -- how should I say? I would definitely it was some seconds. Not even a minute.
COOPER: It all was quick.
BRADY: Yes, it was just quick. It was quick. Definitely quick. Probably, what, within 30 seconds, 40 seconds maybe.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And one final note, Mr. Brady has spoken to county investigators he says about what he saw. And he's yet to talk to the FBI.
Now just ahead, a police officer here who did not get the memo about calming things down. His threat to a protester all but caught on tape and what has happened to him since.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Looking at live pictures of protesters here as the sun starts to go down in Ferguson and again it has been quite a day of developments for people to process. Attorney Eric Holder has met with Michael Brown's parents. Protesters right now in Clayton, Missouri, not far from here, calling on the county prosecutor to recuse himself, clearly still (INAUDIBLE) on the ground here.
And although it was largely calm last night, some new videos surfaced today of a very tense encounter between two protesters and an assault rifle carrying officer of a nearby police force. Take a look at their video of what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My god, there it is. Turn around. Gun ready.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gun pointed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gun raised. Pointed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My hands are up, bro. My hands are up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up. Hands up. (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Raised and pointed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get back, get back. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I'm going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you. Get back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to kill him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Seconds later when asked for his name, the officer replies, "Go F yourself." He's since been relieved of duty, we're told, and suspended indefinitely.
Joining us now St. Louis Alderman Antonio French.
You've seen that video. Did that surprise you at all?
ANTONIO FRENCH, ST. LOUIS ALDERMAN: Unfortunately, it didn't surprise me.
COOPER: Because we have seen officers pointing rifles, pointing guns at peaceful protesters.
FRENCH: Yes, we have had a few officers out here who have not really been sensitive to the situation. We've had officer tell a woman and her son to go get a job. This is a well-employed woman who was offended by that statement. But, you know, I think the difference here is that in this case, we did see something happen to that officer immediately and that sends a strong message that at least the folks at the top are getting it.
COOPER: It did seem -- I mean, last night the numbers of protesters were down. Tonight it looks like they are even down farther. It was largely peaceful last night until a little bit later on, a water bottle was thrown.
Talk about the police tactics because we have seen an evolution in their tactics and last night it seemed like -- and I talked to a number of pastors, it seemed like they were more in contact with police than they have been allowed to be in previous nights by the police. The police were literally kind of using them as a conduit to people.
FRENCH: Yes, so we're going into really about the 12th night of this. And so we've seen a transformation or a progress of what has been going on and yes, recently since St. Louis City Police have gotten involved and the leadership there, they have a lot more experience with large crowd control.
And so what we've seen instead of tear gassing an entire crowd and angering all those folks, especially after the other day when children were tear gassed, the police have taken another approach which is to kind of extract those small group of troublemakers. And we saw that last night. That's much more successful than punishing the entire crowd.
COOPER: How important do you think the visit with Attorney General Eric Holder was today?
FRENCH: I think it's big. You know, folks have lost so much faith in the local prosecutor and the local police department. That folks really want to see the federal government take a role in this. And by the attorney general coming himself, it shows that it's at the top of his priority list.
COOPER: Even if the federal investigation may take a very long period of time?
FRENCH: Yes, but --
COOPER: And maybe even more difficult to bring any kind of federal charges if they do at all compared to the St. Louis investigation.
FRENCH: Yes. I still think that the attorney general's presence matters. I think that the president has talked about this personally matters. But on the local level, I think people are right and I'm one of them to still call for the governor to replace the county prosecutor.
COOPER: You really do not have confidence in this prosecutor?
FRENCH: No, and it's not just about whether I have confidence. You know, the big problem and what we're doing is trying to restore faith in the justice system. And so what matters is the folks here have faith in the county prosecutor and they don't. And so in order to repair the damage that's been done these last 10 days is really going to take a special prosecutor to come in.
COOPER: You know, the argument against that is look, this is a prosecutor who has won multiple elections, though turnout among African Americans is -- has been very low in those elections and this is what he is supposed to do. He's supposed to be able to prosecute these kinds of cases.
FRENCH: Yes, well, this prosecutor's relationship with the African- American community has not been good for a long time. And we're coming off of a really, really heated county executive race where the county prosecutor kind of stepped out of his role as an independent and strongly worked against the African American county executive so there are a lot of hard feelings in North County --
COOPER: So it goes beyond just his connections to law enforcement, his familial connections in the past.
FRENCH: People know, you know, Bob McCulloch, and may have feelings, defined feelings about him, and so that's why folks are strong in saying that they don't trust him in this particular case.
COOPER: Alderman, appreciate you being with us.
FRENCH: Yes, thanks.
COOPER: Thank you very much as always, Alderman French.
I want to bring in our legal panel now because there is a lot to discuss. Former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin, criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos and legal affairs commentator Areva Martin.
Areva, the attorney general here in Ferguson. Looking into the federal investigation. The bar, though, is very high for civil rights case to be brought. Isn't that correct?
AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Absolutely, Anderson. And the attorney general made it very clear that he's looking at whether there was some kind of civil rights violation, a totally different standard based on civil rights violations versus what the state prosecutor is doing is looking to see will some kind of murder or manslaughter charges be brought.
But I can't stress enough similar to what Antonio French said, the presence of the attorney general for this community is so big, the sense that someone outside of the community who is objective and not biased is going to be looking at what the state prosecutor does. I think it's more important than the symbolism. Perhaps it's even more important than any federal prosecution that may come out of this case.
COOPER: That seems to be -- Jeff, I'm curious of your thoughts. Because, I mean, you hear the trust in the attorney general here from this community and the appreciation of him being here but the easier case really to put together is -- perhaps if any case can be put together is an excessive use of force case by the St. Louis prosecutor if they in fact choose to do that.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: That's the paradox here is that the easier case is by the prosecutor who has so much trouble in the community. Now it may be that the two investigations are somehow combined and the -- somehow the credibility of the Justice Department and the FBI is transferred to the state investigation, but that certainly hasn't happened yet. And I don't know if it will happen at all.
Anderson, I don't mean to change the subject but, you know, just in terms of the future of the investigation, I thought your interview with Michael Brady is extremely significant. I thought he was very credible and very incriminating of the officer, and so, you know, that's another thing to place in the mix. That was not the portrait of an officer firing in self-defense. That sounded like a murder, and that's something that, you know, it's not the only witness and it's not the only piece of evidence, but is certainly very significant.
COOPER: Mark, I mean, you try cases all the time. Eyewitness testimony obviously it can change, memories can shift, people can think they see something that didn't happen. How important is it going to be in this case given that there is no video, there's no dashcam video, there's really no video of the actual incident?
MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, eyewitness testimony, as you just said, is notoriously fallible and you've seen it by the interviews you've done so far. It's going to be, I think, be extremely important both at the federal investigation, which is, I think everybody is already kind of winked at, which is normally proceeds at a glacial pace, and the county and the county investigation is interesting on a number of levels because by going to the grand jury, you have this situation where the public is not going to be able to see what the witnesses say or what the eyewitnesses say.
And interestingly, the prosecutor is the one who picks and chooses what witnesses to put in front of the grand jury. So you can cherry- pick a witness that may be more helpful for the officer as opposed to a witness as Jeff said who just would seem to incriminate the police. So the prosecutor wields an enormous amount of power when you go to the grand jury.
And then if you compound that with the fact that the grand jury is traditionally in most communities selected from voter rolls and here in this particular county the African-American turnout is abysmal so that my guess is, is you probably wouldn't have a representative grand jury that had the number of African-Americans you would hope for.
This really could be a self-fulfilling prophecy where the prosecutor gets a no bill return by the grand jury.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: I mean, the only thing I would add --
GERAGOS: And also that's --
COOPER: Go ahead, Jeff.
TOOBIN: If I can just add one thing. The state prosecutor, McCulloch has said that he is going to put absolutely all the evidence in front of the grand jury. So I don't know -- I don't know if the cherry- picking -- it sounds like the cherry-picking won't happen. It's still likely that the prosecutor like all prosecutors will control the outcome in the grand jury, but he has said he's going to put all the evidence in there.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Well, Jeff --
COOPER: I want to point out, there's a lot of -- hold on, guys. Guys.
Areva, let me just point out. It's also important to mention that the forensic evidence has not been released. So we don't know -- we don't know how many shots were actually fired. We know the private autopsy done by Michael Baden showed that at least six shots hit Michael Brown. Information has not been released about were there other shots that were fired. We don't know about where the -- those bullets, whether or not they've been recovered.
Three bullets were recovered from Michael Brown's body. So there's a lot of forensic evidence which will also be critical in this case which is simply not out there in the public sphere, Areva.
MARTIN: Yes, absolutely, Anderson. And it's important to note, too, that at the grand jury level, it's not whether this officer is innocent or guilty and it's not the standard of reasonable doubt or beyond reasonable doubt. It's a much lower standard, and as Mark said, this is the prosecutor's playground. So if he wants to get a conviction -- an indictment in this case, he can put on the testimony, the witnesses that we've heard throughout the last 10 days.
Those that support the testimony that Michael Brown was fleeing, that he raised his hands, that he surrendered, and he can walk out of that grand jury with an indictment. But I think the community is concerned that this case is going to be different because of the negative history this prosecutor has with the African-American community that that indictment is not guaranteed.
COOPER: And may not -- we may not hear anything on it one way or the other until at least October. We learned that today.
Areva Martin, Mark Geragos, Jeff Toobin, thank you.
Up next, I'm going to talk with Benjamin Crump, the attorney for Michael Brown's family. We're going to see what he has to say about (INAUDIBLE) and most importantly, the visit by Attorney General Eric Holder.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. A little bit less than 25 minutes until sunset here, still very calm as it has been throughout the day, number of protesters still very small, but it usually grows as night comes.
Protesters now assembled outside a county prosecutor's office in Clayton, about a half hour's drive from here give or take. Joining us now to talk about the local and federal legal process now is the Brown family attorney, Benjamin Crump. It's good to have you here.
Today obviously a big day for this city, Attorney General Eric Holder coming. A lot of people in the community that I've talked to today were pleased that he came and he met with the Brown family. What can you tell us about, it was the private meeting, about what went on. BENJAMIN CRUMP, BROWN'S FAMILY ATTORNEY: It was a private meeting, Anderson. The lawyers, just him and the parents and he spoke to them as a parent. That he could understand their pain and frustration having children of his own. Saying they deserve a fair and thorough investigation and an appropriate review.
And that meant a lot to Lesley and Michael because they are very distrustful of the local authorities and you know why. Their child was executed by the police and his mother keeps asking a very pointed question. You can't call the police on the police and she told the attorney general that.
COOPER: But they were impressed by him. They were -- it had an impact on him that they came and met with him.
CRUMP: It really did and it was surprising because they were a little reluctant initially. But after the meeting, they --
COOPER: Reluctant because they didn't want it to be political or?
CRUMP: Well, they wonder is it just political because at the end of the day, so many people say, you know, we are going to make sure you get equal justice, it will be fair for you and stuff and then it's like those are just words.
But whatever he said to them, Anderson, it made them feel confident that they would get equal justice, they would get a fair investigation and an appropriate review by his office.
COOPER: It does seem, though, that this is going to take a long time, this process. I mean, you know better than anybody the legal process takes a long time. A grand jury starting today, we may not get information until October about what they decide.
CRUMP: Yes, and that's very troubling because every family you will ask especially in this situation where they are saying it could be information disseminated in a piecemeal that's all negative against them.
COOPER: You're saying the authorities are releasing information selectively?
CRUMP: Exactly. Deviously, Anderson, you know --
COOPER: Releasing the surveillance video at the same day they release the officer's name.
CRUMP: Exactly. But we know nothing about the shooter though (inaudible). Don't know who he he's able to relate to in the St. Louis County Office who is doing their investigation now because the family has been told he has relatives that are in law enforcement.
So his relatives are investigation so that's troubling. You say, well, we got public records request. Is he related to David (inaudible) law enforcement or in the mayor's office because the family want a fair share. COOPER: The protest here have -- they are certainly lesser in number. We've seen yesterday it was lesser and today is sort of even lesser. It's probably a few dozen separate groups of people out here. Is that for you a good thing? For this community it's -- some people want to return to normal or at least some resemblance of normal although they are not happy with the status quo.
But concern about the violence has taken place. You have expressed concerns about some of the violence taking place taking away attention from where it should be in your opinion on the death of Michael Brown.
CRUMP: Absolutely. Irresponsible actions and violence. Everybody are focused on what this is about. It makes people try to stop saying an unarmed teenager was killed and just talking about the protests and the riots. We will now focused on this tragedy and the fix that come at it, but was existing before it. Remember, this was a tipping point. A lot had happened before.
COOPER: This is about a lot more than Michael Brown as important is that is to this community.
CRUMP: It is. And a lot of people, the family is participating with Trayvon's father in a feast fest on Sunday. So we want to demonstrate to all Americans who was watching the Michael Brown situation that we have a reason to come together peacefully in protest for our children. I think that's going to be quite significant.
COOPER: And then the funeral, the public memorial is on Monday as well. Benjamin Crump, appreciate it.
CRUMP: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Some perspective on the police, joining us again tonight. Actually I want to show you just some live picture right now just to give you a sense of what is going on here as darkness is falling. As I said, the numbers are definitely down. There are several dozen people kind of standing still.
But there is this group, which continues to move around as the police have requested not standing in any one spot. It's certainly smaller than it has been in past nights. We'll see if that number grows as darkness falls.
I want to introduce you to David Klinger, a former Los Angeles police officer. He is an associate professor of Criminal Justice in the University of Missouri, St. Louis. He is also the author of "Into the Kill Zone, A Cop's Eye View of Deadly Force."
And I want to start just by getting your opinion on what Benjamin Crump just said about the status of this investigation, about the Brown family concern about the secrecy of the grand jury and the length of time this may take.
DAVID KLINGER, AUTHOR, "INTO THE KILL ZONE": Grand juries are typically secret proceedings and typically it takes a while for these investigations to move forward and so I don't understand why somebody who is instantly familiar with the way that these proceedings going forward like he's concerned about that.
This is the standard practice. The issue should be, is the grand jury being conducted appropriately, is the investigation of the case, at least of the evidence presented to the grand jury being conducted appropriately and it's going to take some time to figure all that out.
COOPER: Can you explain the legal standard for an officer using deadly force against somebody who is not armed? Because there are a lot of people say point blank, there is no reason an officer should shoot somebody who is unarmed and shoot them at least six times. Legally there are cases where the court said that actually can be --
KLINGER: Absolutely.
COOPER: Appropriate.
KLINGER: Absolutely. I'm 6'4" and 225 pounds. If I'm attacking a police officer, who is 5'2" and 150 pounds or 125 pounds and I got her pinned to the ground, I'll make it a female, I think any reasonable person would say yes, Klinger needs to be shot.
So the legal standard for police officer using deadly force against an unarmed individual is the same standard as any individual. Can the officer articulate a reasonable threat his or her life is in jeopardy? If so, it's a legal shooting.
COOPER: But isn't more -- doesn't also part of that have to do with whether the person is a felony in various legal cases. Isn't that criteria?
KLINGER: That is one of the issues in terms of shooting a fleeing individual, but if a situation where there's physical altercation. Let's say you and I are in a fight and I weigh an additional 100 pounds and I'm a WWE super star. I got you pinned down and I start to pummel you.
It doesn't matter if I use my fist, a hatchet, it doesn't matter if I pull a gun out and stick it in your face, all of those things are putting your life in imminent jeopardy and if you're a police officer, you better darn well shoot me before I kill you.
COOPER: Are there different requirements though for when you pull out a gun and taser.
KLINGER: Yes, if you can articulate that there is an immediate threat that you need to address or a pending threat that could emerge then you go ahead and draw your side arm.
So let's say we're on patrol and we get a call of a man with a gun three blocks away and we rush down there and we see an individual armed with a firearm. We'll get out with our weapons drawn or firearms drawn in order to confront the individual.
Same call with a man who is behaving in an odd fashion. At that point, we won't draw our firearms. We would come up and talk to him. If it escalated, we may use a taser or whatever we've got in terms of chemical agents. So it is depending on the nature of the circumstance the officers are confronting.
COOPER: I appreciate you being on again tonight. Thank you so much. A lot to talk about in this hour, also, on live in the next hour.
Coming up, remembering James Foley, the American journalist killed by is journalist -- OK. Actually, I want to quickly show you some armored personnel carrying tactical vehicles. This was around the same time last night we saw them moving into position, two vehicles, two tactical vehicles moving.
Some have taken position several blocks down and there is more likely that we can't see from here at the far end of the road. Previously, they all used to be up there, but last night this was the first time we saw a separation of the tactical vehicles.
And part of a new strategy by police really kind of a more spread out use of the police and really a less visible, I would say, offensive presence. You don't see police in full tactical gear standing around. Police officers have helmets off, sometimes just attached to their belts.
They have riot shields in some cases. A lot of that is not within sight at this point. That only starts to occur if the crowd starts to change and the mood starts to change a little bit later on tonight.
We do want to talk when we come back about Jim Foley executed by ISIS terrorists. He was 42 years old. He followed his passion to tell the stories that need to be told, stories of people suffering in war zones, people in Syria.
His parents spoke out, the president spoke out today, how he's being remembered tonight. There is also breaking news tonight about an attempt to rescue him just this summer, to rescue him and other Americans being held hostage. That's next.
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COOPER: Welcome back, more breaking news tonight. Another heartbreaking angle to the story of the American freelance journalist who was beheaded by ISIS terrorists. Tonight, we're learning just how close the United States came to rescuing him.
Earlier, this summer we've learned President Obama authorized an attempt to rescue freelance journalist, James Foley and other hostages. Foley, as you know, was kidnapped in November 2012 in Syria where he was reporting on the conflict.
U.S. intelligence today authenticated the horrifying video that was released yesterday showing Foley's execution and act that President Obama said shocks the conscience of the entire world. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The entire world is appalled by the brutal murder of Jim Foley by the terrorist group, ISIL. He was a journalist, a son, a brother, and a friend. He reported from difficult and dangerous places bearing witness to the lives of people a world away. The American people will all say a prayer for those who loved Jim. All of us feel the ache of his absence. All of us mourn his loss.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: James Foley was in Syria on assignment for the online publication, "Global Post." Today, its CEO said Foley's kidnappers contacted his family just last week in an e-mail saying that he would be executed. Foley's parents had been through an unspeakable nightmare and showed amazing grace and courage today speaking publicly about their son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIANE FOLEY, JAMES FOLEY'S MOTHER: So many people were praying for Jim, and I really think that's what gave Jim an unusual courage. Jim just concealed the prayers. He was strong, courageous, loving until the end. We highly recognize our little boy. He just -- he was just a hero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know from the videos that his last words were, I wish I had more time to see my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me live are CNN national security analyst, Fran Townsend and former FBI and CIA official, Philip Mudd. Fran, this unsuccessful rescue attempt, we typically only hear about missions when they are successful. What do you make of this news and the decision to release the details today?
FRANCES TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, Anderson, having worked a lot of these rescue missions when I was in the White House, this goes on all the time. There is a standing inner agency group that works when there is an American being held, whether it's a journalist or an aid worker, and what you're doing is going through the intelligence, making decisions about how credible is it, how actionable is it.
Then, of course, if it's believed to be credible and actionable it goes to the military planning cell. Typically Special Forces and you hear about the ones that are successful. I will tell you every day including the American still being held, American authorities are trying to collect tactical intelligence so that they can action it and try to rescue them.
COOPER: Phil, was releasing this information, was it a good idea?
PHILIP MUDD, FORMER SENIOR OFFICIAL, FBI AND CIA: I actually don't think so. I recognized a lot of people say look, ISIS must know we staged that operation because obviously they were holding the captive. That's an assumption. It's not knowledge.
If there are potentially people holding captives now who are not aware of the operation, they have to be sitting back and saying, what are we going to do about our captor because we know the Americans are coming after us? I recognize I don't dispute what the Pentagon and the White House did.
There is a leak here that they had to respond to, but in the midst of a hostage situation to indicate that we had already gone after an earlier hostage to my mind is a mistake.
COOPER: Fran, I think back to that "New York Times" report about European nations paying for the return of their citizens who have been kidnapped, France reporting one of the leading payers and a huge source of income now and frankly has encouraged other kidnappings in all likelihood.
Most payments through al Qaeda linked groups. Does -- is it factual to say the United States does not pay as these Western European nations do? If so, is that something they are going to look at?
TOWNSEND: Let me start with your -- the last part of your question, there is, in my mind absolutely no way in the face of this brutal execution of Jim Foley they will consider paying fees to these groups. And so we don't -- U.S. policies we don't pay ransoms to these groups.
Now there are instances where it may be others who do pay these sorts of ransoms will intercede, but I will tell you, Anderson, pretty clearly administration, Republican and Democrat, have not engage in these negotiations and do not pay these bribe moneys.
Now the Europeans, it is a very frustrating fact that the Europeans do, the French are not the only ones, but they do pay large sums that are used by these groups to the arm or equip themselves.
The frustrating part is the division in terms of policy that some countries pay these and some countries don't.
COOPER: Phil, do you have any doubt that ISIS particularly picked a killer with a British, probably a British citizen, certainly a British accent to execute James Foley. Was that part of sending a message to the west?
MUDD: I suspect it was. I'm not certain. I think most likely they put out someone who could encourage people in the Europe and the United States to understand that if you want to go to Syria and Iraq and fight in the jihad, you don't have to be from Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Algeria. You can be from London or Paris or New York. This isn't the first time we've seen this. We've seen Omar from --
COOPER: Appreciate --
MUDD: Go ahead.
COOPER: I'm sorry. Go ahead, Phil. You dropped out of my ear for a second. I'm sorry, continue.
MUDD: No, I was saying we've seen this historically. We saw Omar from Alabama speak for Al Shabbab. We've seen Germans speak to a German audience. We've seen Americans from California speak for al Qaeda in Pakistan. So I think this is clearly a way to say look, if you want to join jihad, there is people like you here, please come and join us.
COOPER: Yes, it's really just outrageous. We'll talk more about this in our next hour, as well. Appreciate both of you being on, Fran and Phil. We'll be right back live from Ferguson as the protests here continue.
Gradually more people are arriving but the numbers greatly down, hopefully this will be a night without any certainly large scale arrests like we saw even last night with more than 40 people arrested. We'll be right back.
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COOPER: Jake Tapper has been out all day into the night throughout the week here in Ferguson. He joins me now live. Jake, what have you seen today?
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, "THE LEAD": It's pretty quiet right now. First of all, we're waiting for a big storm to roll in, but right now there are a hand full of protesters coming through. The numbers are in the dozens. People are starting to arrive here, you see some people here brought their kids.
This is a Gianiah and Gerald and Gregory. Say hi to America, guys, there you go. They are waiting here with their folks waiting for the protests to begin. It's just before 8:00 here St. Louis time. Here we have some of the protests arriving. They are small.
PROTESTERS: Hands up, don't shoot! Hands up, don't shoot? No justice, no peace, no justice, no peace.
TAPPER: We wanted to show you, Anderson, is the presence of the police tonight like as last night, which seemed to work very well. We have militarized vehicles, but instead of blocking the street and the presence of police, they are spread out throughout up and down the street, which are more effective and less intimidating to the crowds last night and tonight -- Anderson.
COOPER: Yes, that's the strategy we saw really for the first time last night and more use of local pastors and community leaders that seemed to be effective as you reporting on. We'll talk to Jake in the next hour. Another hour of 360 coming up. We'll take a short break and be right back.
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