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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Gov. Orders Natl. Guard Pullout; New Details on Foley Rescue Attempt; Hagel: ISIS Sophisticated and Well-Funded; Hagel: ISIS "Beyond Just a Terrorist Group"; Foley's Captors Demanded $132.5M Ransom
Aired August 21, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 HOST: Hey, good evening again from Ferguson. Thank for staying with us in this hour. Tonight we are looking at the most vulnerable people here. Young people, kids, who seen their lives turned inside out and upside down over the last 10 days what they have to say and you'll hear it in a moment what they have to say really needs to be said.
They have been through a lot. Many of the schools have been shut down. For them and for everyone here for the first time since Officer Darren Wilson shot and killed Michael Brown, there is better news nothing than the night before. Things have calmed down enough for Missouri's Governor to order a pullout of the National Guard. We'll talk about that tonight about new ways of looking at the physical evidence in the case, legal developments and a lot more.
We begin thought with two people for whom things may get better but they'll never ever be the same, Michael Brown's parents, Lesley McSpadden and Michael Brown Sr. I sat down with them earlier today along with their attorney Benjamin Crump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Mike its one thing to lose a son it's another thing to be thrust into the public spotlight and to have to then, you know, defend your son and seek what you say is justice for you son. Do you feel like some folks have been kind of -- to go after the character of your son?
MICHAEL BROWN SR., FATHER OF MICHAEL BROWN: Yes sir.
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MOTHER OF MICHAEL BORWN: And they don't know why.
BROWN: Yes.
MCSPADDEN: They don't know why.
COOPER: What do you want people to know about your son? What was he like?
MCSPADDEN: He was special to me. He was ours. He was peaceful. He was humble. He didn't act to that. He didn't deserve that. And it was wrong. And I'm going to always love him just how he was. And nothing they're going to say can change the way I fell about him, because they didn't know him like we knew him. So nothing you can say is going to ever make me understand what happened, ever. Everybody got to pay us. He was only 18.
COOPER: He had his whole life ahead of him.
MCSPADDEN: That's right.
COOPER: When the authorities released that video, that surveillance video from the convenient store, did you feel that, that was a way of kind of change people's perception of your son?
BROWN SR: They're trying to cover something but I didn't for nothing if it ain't, you know. The point of the matter is that officer killed and has gunned down our son. Even if he did, even if that was the case he still don't deserve to get gunned down like he got gunned down.
MCSPADDEN: You shouldn't change the way that a person's feeling because this is the right and wrong issue, he was wrong.
BROWN SR: For a kid that's taught to honor and respect the police officer of his job and duties and to respect you and he get gunned like that, it's just wrong.
COOPER: That's one of the things you try to teach your son about how to interact with police?
BROWN SR: Yes. Yes.
COOPER: You had conversations about that?
MCSPADDEN: Ain't that terrible?
BROWN SR: Yes.
MCSPADDEN: Ain't that terrible?
COOPER: But you have to have that conversation?
MCSPADDEN: They too have to had a conversation, really? Why?
COOPER: But that's the conversation you felt you had to have with your son. What do you -- what was that conversation?
BROWN: Well for one, we -- my son always been a big guy. He's always mistaken to be older than what he is and for that matter I felt like he needed to be taught how to interact with a police officer because for one, they would think that he's older than what he is and his not, you know?
When he was 16 he look like he was 21, he's 18, little like his almost 24, but the case that matter he's 18, you know.
MCSPADDEN: And the police is pro-value, you know. BROWN SR: You just ...
MCSPADDEN: It's not fair.
BENJAMIN CRUP, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL BROWN'S FAMILY: Anderson as we know they will kill young boys of color and so you have to have that conversation not any guarantee that is going to stop your child from being cared by the people who are supposed to protect you but every person of color has those conversations with their parent. That if you are a parent you'd have it with your child.
COOPER: You'd have it with your kids?
CRUP: Absolutely I had it with my boys and will this Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin or Jordan Davis (inaudible) in North Carolina when they should made bribe. I mean and it goes on and on and our actions with police and authority figures we have to tell our children, you know, they will kill you so we don't want them to kill you so let us try to prepare for that day we're not going to be there with you.
And this is just hard. It is very hard even as a sit here and I'm a lawyer. You hear I prayer out so many times in the black community where the police are the people who killed your child and you're scratching your head and saying, "But, you supposed to protect him, you trained." You know, you supposed to know when to use deadly force, you supposed to know how to have conflict resolution. You got tasers and stuff why did you have to shoot him?
COOPER: All along you have been very clear that you don't want violence from this protest and you don't anything to distract from what happened to you son. What's you message to the protesters now?
BROWN: Well, you know, as for the protesters, you know, we have people that's out there for the cause and you have people out there just being themselves. But for the ones that's doing it for the cause, you know, to keep pressure in supporting us to make sure things are, you know, going correctly, you know, we appreciate that as a father and a mother, you know, but this other -- this looting and all this other stuff, it's not helping.
It's not helping our boy, it's doing nothing but, you know, causing more pain plus the shame in his name, you know. He had to (inaudible) they're making this -- they're making it bad for everything -- everybody, you know. And I just need them, you know, if they're not for the cause they need to just go back to your regular life. Go back home to your family.
Hug your son. Hug your daughter. Love your love. Do what you need to do. Keep your family tight and going on, you know, as we're trying our best to be strong and if you can have yours hold on to them tight. Keep them close and make sure that this doesn't happen again to yours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The parents of Michael Brown, I spoke to them earlier today. And back with us in this hour, Crossfire Co-host and social activist Van Jones. The New York Times is Charles Blow and Gloria Browne- Marshall of New York's John Jay College of criminal Justice.
Van, you know, you and I were talking while we listening to that interview and there is no -- I mean, it's not necessarily right or wrong it's not necessarily one side is correct and one side is wrong when you're looking at this situations.
VAN JONES, CNN CROSSFIRE HOST: Well one of the things that's happening now is that there is actual brain science that shows that both sides can be right. You -- a lot of people say, "Listen, I'm white. I'm not racist. I don't have any (inaudible) toward black people, I am tired of people telling me that I'm racist, you know, because I'm white."
COOPER: Or stop talking about it.
JONES: Quit talking about it. Move on. And in some ways they are correct and that, you know, people can pass a lie detector test. A lie detector test saying, that they don't have any animist. And yet it turns out that the science also shows that your subconscious mind can actually still hold on to a lot of bias. In fact, they could put wires on your head show you picture of an African-American and your fear responses will show up.
COOPER: And this is something that it's not just white people, its African-Americans...
JONES: And that's the thing. And you show black people pictures and it's the same kind of response, why? Because we're showing so many negative images of black people that it actually gets to our subconscious mind. Guess what? That means both sides are right and both sides are wrong. We've made progress.
Dr. King has won the front of our mind but most of your brain if you're subconscious and until we can talk about the implicit bias, that's the term, implicit bias we're not going to make progress.
COOPER: And Charles, I come back to something you Tweeted and I was talking with Van about this in the last hour, you tweeted yesterday which I thought was really powerful about, you know, this doesn't have to be a case where the officer was a good guy and Mike Brown was a bad guy or Mike Brown was a good guy and the officer is a bad guy, that doesn't necessarily character, doesn't necessarily play into this.
CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No -- exactly. It just what's happening in the moment that Mr. Wilson decides to use the amount of force that he uses and whether or not he uses the appropriate amount of force of he used an excessive amount of force. But I need to go back one step, I agree with what Van was saying up to a point, however, Harvard University -- University of Virginia maintain the implicit bias -- the largest implicit bias test and what they -- what those data have found is that everybody is more likely to have an anti-black pro-white bias. And black people in those testing they've test hundred of thousands of people had less bias than other groups of people.
It is not a kind of equal thing. There is more bias against black bodied people in America and that is just what the science shows on that particular point. And that can as Van was saying creep into your subconscious in that moment, in that split second where you decide that I need to pull the trigger, I feel some fear.
You have to determine whether or not part of that calculation of fear is these messages that you've been fed over a lifetime, historical messages, pop culture messages, media messages about what brown bodied men and women embody, and that is what has to be guided to in you in this case.
COOPER: And Gloria, it's interesting, you know, we kind of recreated the famous doll test several years ago on our program and even very young kids, you know, five, six years old, seven years old have ideas about race, you know, parents -- every parent we talked to who said, "My child doesn't see color." We haven't had that conversation, we don't need to have that conversation but long -- little kids do receive these messages even thought we may not even realize we're receiving these messages.
GLORIA BRONE-MARSHALL, FORMER CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Yes, they're receiving these messages and from the very beginning if you think about the commercials, if you think about the television programs, who's in power, who's out of power, who's the criminal, who's not the criminal. You think about these things and you realized the majority of white people are regular people trying to live their lives and so are the majority of black people.
But once you add this sense of hostility, this assumption of criminality to the case even for example with marijuana use. So social science has shown that whites use marijuana more than blacks do on average and yet the incarceration rates for black people, you know, around the issue of drugs is much higher.
So, we see that once people believe certain people are supposed to be criminals that does increase their fear factor and as Charles pointed out there's a split second in which you're think, "Do I pull this trigger?" And on August 20th we have a situation in which one time they pull the trigger which is in Platte County they don't -- with the person with a riffle but they do in the St. Louis situation within a mentally ill young man.
COOPER: Charles, in you latest column at Times you talked about racial conversations and what they should and shouldn't look like, what do you mean? You say they need to be interracial and multidirectional, what does that mean?
BLOW: I mean that there are three elements that one is that it can't be a conversation where black people are talking strictly to white people or majority populations about being agreed that everybody has to have a part in conversation. You have to say why you feel a certain way and what has informed those feelings and I have to be able to do the same.
The second part is you have to understand that race is basically just a kind of weaponize construct and what the anthropologist show is that, you know, there is more genetic difference among people in a racial group than there is between people of different racial groups, that it is just constructed. And what we think about when we think about racial is really kind of a sociological culture or construct that was basically designed to suppress people.
And the third and last thing is that you have to grant a certain level of immunity to people if you want them to be honest. They have to be able to say things that are going to upset you quite frankly.
COOPER: Right.
BLOW: And but if they're being earnest and honest in their conversation you have to say, "I understand. That really upsets me but I realize that you're trying to get to a point where you're going to be honest and let me help you with that."
COOPER: Well -- and I -- we got to move on. But Van, so just finally on that point, I mean, it is such a conversation fought with emotions, such a difficult conversation. There haven't a lot of people, you know, kind of feel like, "You know what, I just rather not go there."
JONES: Yes, and that's why we all stay pretty stupid. I almost sometimes talk about racism, I talk about blind spot and sore spot. If you're a woman, you know your sore spot and you know how many guys have blind spot. If you're Jewish, if you're black you have sore spot. You also know other people's blind spot and we can just talk about the blind spots and sore spots sometimes I can just see de- escalate a little bit.
The last thing I just want to say is that, you know, I understand having lived in both the black and the white world to use at that term, you know, African-American guys have to have a different conversation with their parents. White guy, if you're at a Frat party and you bump up with the cops or whatever, this -- the cops often respond, "Boys will be boys, come on guys calm it down."
If you're African-American in a fraternity it's a completely different response, I've seen both. And so that's the kind of stuff we got to be able to talk about and laugh about but then also begin to solve.
COOPER: Van Jones, I appreciate it. Charles Blow, Gloria Browne- Marshall, great to have you on.
Coming up next, the kids of Ferguson and how nearly two weeks of protest and tension have really changed their lives. We'll take a break, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well as much as things have quieted down here in Ferguson, there's very little that is normal yet. People have had a tough time getting around or getting to work, going to school, they've been kept inside by curfews, marches, looting in some cases and then flocks (ph) of outsiders, some of them violent, police troops, you name it.
Nothing has been normal for them or for their kids who were supposed to go back to school this week but won't be doing that until Monday at the earliest. Their story now from Ed Lavandera.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Destiny and Nola Blond (ph) world has been turned upside down for almost two week.
When you hear the violence and the tear gas and the gut shots? You said that's pretty scary?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes it is because like I said my -- a lot of my family is ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are over here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, yes and it really worries me not just about my family but the people ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The people that are getting hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... the innocent people who just want ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and justice, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wants his mom.
LAVANDERA: Destiny (ph), he was supposed to start seventh grade this week. Nola (ph) is in fifth grade. But classes in Ferguson were canceled for the week. Instead, they're volunteering with a neighborhood association next to the street memorial for Michael Brown making gift bags for other kids.
But at night the often violent protest have erupted just outside their home in Ferguson.
When all that stuff happened, what do you guys do?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just watch the news. Sometimes we go in the basement and watch the news also.
LAVANDERA: What do you guys say to each other when all that's going on?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just like ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cry together.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... talk to each other and just let each other know like we're here for you and ...
LAVANDERA: Does that help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It helps a lot ... UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To let us know because it could have been other kids or other people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It could have been us. So we just want each other to know how much we love each other, you know.
LAVANDERA: The children of this neighborhood have witnessed the chaos up close caught between SWAT teams and violent protesters. Several kids have been treated for inhaling tear gas. So when the sun goes down, they worry about what will happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because my granny was out when the day (inaudible). My granny could have get -- my granny could have got shot.
LAVANDERA: At night, one block away from the protest site, three kids shoot hoops under the only street light around on Alison Drive.
Oh, that was nice shot.
A few nights ago the violent protesters faced off with SWAT officers, in the darkness of the street fires were set, shots fired, tear gas launched.
Are you scared?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wasn't scared ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we came in ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...but it's kind of scary that what they're doing because people don't know what's going to happen now, it was foggy here every night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every night that we had it was -- you couldn't get anywhere.
LAVANDERA: They often feel trapped in the neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're throwing tear gas and stuff and breaking out stuff. We can't get our education if that stuff likely happen.
LAVANDERA: For the children of Ferguson caught in the crosshairs, the disturbing realities of the street have stuck too close to home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's a really nice piece. Ed Lavandera joins us now. Did the kids you talked to, and what did they think about the protest? Did they support them?
LAVANDERA: Yes, you know, and what kind of stuck out is just how much they talk about it between each other. You think, you know, 10, 11, 12 year olds that we've spend a lot of times speaking with, you know, I think much more aware in the last couple of weeks than perhaps your average kid, so it kind of struck by the profound conversation they've had to have with each other.
COOPER: And so the school starts on Monday to kind of get them back to school, Ed Lavandera?
LAVANDRA: Every single one of them (inaudible) said, "I can't wait to get back to school."
COOPER: Wow. Well that's good, that's good. Ed Lavandera, thanks very much. Join us now. Actually I want to show you just a live picture again of the memorial which is a couple blocks from here. This memorial that's in that neighborhood for Michael Brown and again two memorials, make shift memorials for candles, we've seen that really spring up really since the day that we was shot.
Joins us for now is St. Louise Alderman Antonio French. First of all, what are you seeing tonight? It's obviously, you know, a lot of different crowds. Hardly see any police officers around. It's a much different mood tonight.
ANTONIO FRENCH, ST. LOUIS ALDERMAN: Yes, a lot less people. A lot more calm, a lot less crowds. Yes, and I think a lot of the tactical police have used the last few days have kind of broken out those crowds, deter people who protest on this side at least. I don't think that's an indication that they're, you know, less anger or frustration it's just less activity on the street.
COOPER: In terms of what happens now, not on the legal case but for this community, I mean their businesses which, you know, local or small businesses run locally which have not been able to reopen yet, how long term are the effects for this community?
FRENCH: You know, I think we have a long road ahead. The few businesses that were damaged on the street, they'll quickly recover. I think the much more difficult task if for us, the community is start healing some of the wounds that were created this weak and some of the longer lasting wounds that really were exposed that have been there for many, many years and you just saw this (inaudible).
COOPER: You know, I was talking to the Mayor before who said that they're trying to make an effort to get more African-Americans for instance on the police force but when you look at the numbers, I mean, there's three African-American and there's a 50 white officers, more than 90 percent of the police force is white in the community and 67 percent African-American, there does seems to be a disconnect there.
FRENCH: Yes, I don't think anybody really believe that this Mayor and this Government in here at Ferguson had reached out to the African- American ...
COOPER: You know -- nobody -- you're saying you don't believe that.
FRENCH: I don't believe that.
COOPER: He -- because he says there's not a racial divide here which, I mean, everyone I've talked to kind of said, "What?" FRENCH: So, yes, well I'm not quite sure what plan he's on right now but he's obviously missing the situation and I think his missed it for many years to help contribute to why we're here today. I think the next step here is to start healing somebody's wounds, start getting some of these folks especially in Ferguson involved politically and start getting representation in the government.
COOPER: Because there's really not high in municipal elections which are on April, there's not high African-American turnout. In national elections there have been in the last couple of the national elections but not in municipals.
FRENCH: There have been nationally relatively hot but you're talking about almost single digit turnouts in some of these local elections. In local elections manner, local elections decide who's in charge in the hiring of police officers in their community.
COOPER: Part of the -- one of the reasons I've heard is that a lot of people are kind of newer to this community, a renters, they don't actually feel as connected as some of the loner term residence -- many of them are whites.
FRENCH: Most African-Americans and a lot of these North County towns are trained in population so they stay here a few years and move somewhere else and don't really get involved politically. We want to change that.
I think one of the things that this people bring about is more political involvement and I think we're identified some really good youth leaders over the last week, some young people who want to get involved and I think with the proper mentoring and training they could be really strong political leaders out here.
COOPER: Antonio French, I appreciate you being with us again. Thanks very much. As we've been reporting, Missouri's Governor Jay Nixon has ordered the National Guard to start withdrawing from Ferguson. CNN's Don Lemon has spoke with Governor Nixon a short time ago, the governor said the original mission to provide security has been accomplished and now that there are fewer problems or what'd be what he calls a systematic drawdown. Don asked the governor if that was his decision or if he was influenced in any way by his meeting with the Attorney General Eric Holder. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOVERNOR JAY NIXON, MISSOURI: It was 100 percent my decision for the State of Missouri. I have declared a state of emergency. While I listen to folks, make no mistake those were decisions that I am responsible for and while I will listen to folk's advice about them, I'm making them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You can see more Don Lemon's interview with Governor Nixon on CNN tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. He is also live in Ferguson ahead in this hour though. More than physical evidence what will be so important in the search for answers here given the unreliability of eyewitness testimony everywhere, we know from studies about how unreliable eyewitness testimony can be. So the forensic evidence is going to be critical. I'm going to look what the autopsies, three f them can tell about the circumstances that led to this tragedy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, we learn today that Officer Darrel Wilson did not sustained the kind of serious trauma that some had initially reported and he was taken to hospital, a source with detailed knowledge of the investigation telling us he did not suffer a shattered eye socket at some media outlets have been reporting. Apparently only had a swollen face as resulted in counter that Michael Brown dead in the streets, a several blocks from here. Now, his condition will certainly be one of many signs science that forensic sciences look for to determine what kind of struggle there was between the two.
CNN Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen has more on that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: There are dueling narratives about what happened between Michael Brown and Police Officer Darrel Wilson. A friend of Wilson's version goes like this.
JOSIE, POLICE OFFICER DARREL WILSON'S FRIEND: Michael just bum-rushes and just shoves him back into his car, punching him in the face.
COHEN: CNN has confirmed that account matches the one Officer Wilson told authorities but lawyers for the Brown family say his autopsy showed no signs of struggle and that Wilson is the one who that fault.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This officer should've been arrested.
COHEN: Helping settle disputes like this is the job of forensic pathologist like Dr. Pat Ross. This is her morgue in South Carolina. She's performed more than 7,000 autopsies.
So can you show me on our mannequin, where would you look for these signs of struggle?
PAT ROSS, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Anywhere on the arm, forearms, the hands, fingers.
COHEN: And you're looking for bruises or scratches?
ROSS: Bruises, scratches, yes.
COHEN: Dr. Rose says she checked Brown's knuckles, a bruise there might indicate he'd thrown a punch.
Would you definitely be able to see it in the knuckles or would it have to be a pretty hard punch?
ROSS: That have to be pretty hard.
COHEN: How do you know, if it was from that struggle or maybe he had them before?
ROSS: That's in that question because you can't, you really can't age a bruise exactly, you know, it may have happened two hours ago or five days ago.
COHEN: Another dispute, Wilson's friend says Brown rushed the officer full speed, so Wilson started shooting. But some witnesses say Brown had his hands up on the air and surrender.
So Michael Brown had several bullet wounds here and here. If you were doing an autopsy and looking at the body, could you tell whether he was up like this or whether he was charging act someone? Can you figure that out on an autopsy?
ROSS: No.
COHEN: And then autopsy might not help with this either. Why Brown had a gunshot wound right at the top of his head.
How would that happen?
ROSS: Very likely that the victim was bent over like this.
COHEN: And why would someone be bent until over like that?
ROSS: They're either dodging or maybe time to run.
COHEN: Michael Brown's first autopsy was done by the county, the second commission by his family, the third completed Monday by the Federal government.
This is now the third autopsy that's been done and it seems like a lot of people are putting hope that it will help answer somebody's questions and solve some of these arguments. Do you think it will?
ROSS: No. It will be - it may produce more questions but I say unfortunately things need time and people need to be patient and let everybody get together and get all facts together.
COHEN: Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Newberry, South Carolina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, joining us now is Neil Bruntrager, general counsel for the St. Louis Police Officers Association and also legal analyst and Criminal Defense Atty. Mark O'mara who obviously successfully defended George Zimmerman in the killing of Trayvon Martin.
Neil, the struggle in the vehicle which all the eye witnesses says there were some of sort of a struggle, how important will that be to determine who initiated that in the extents of that?
NEIL BRUNTRAGER, GENERAL COUNCEL FOR ST. LOUIS POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION: It's going to be really important because if we use deadly force, the standard in Missouri is you can use deadly force in response if you reasonably believe that you are in danger of serious physical harm or death. So again, what happens in the car ...
COOPER: You or others.
BRUNTRAGER: Or others.
COOPER: Right.
BRUNTRAGER: Or others. So in this instance, if the officer feels like he is threatened personally, again, if it's serious physical harm or death then you can use deadly force. So any struggle in the car is important to the (inaudible).
COOPER: And Mark, the reports about Officer Wilson's injuries, George Zimmerman, injuring certainly play the role in the public perception of the case and certainly in the trial, the images of his bloody head, their nose, were initially release to the public, when they were though they came out, they're did in many ways changed the narrative of the case, didn't they?
MARK O'MARA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They absolutely did because they show it to the first hand and before anyone else could talk about it, they showed the physical reality of what happened to George. In this case, Officer Wilson, you know, those injuries, I'm sure there were -- photographs were taken. And a significance of it, it's going to be very worth while like entry for couple reasons. One, it may explain a way what fear the officer was in if he's going to allege that he was in fear great probably injury, the fears is going to come from something and an initial altercation will cause that.
And also it tends to show that there was an aggressive fight between the two and again, it shows his mindset which is completely relevant, almost solely relevant in a self-defense and just probably use of deadly force scenario.
COOPER: Mark, I want to ask you, how significant is sort of the public communication at this age because, you know, I got a lot of tweets from people saying why aren't you talking to Darrell Wilson's supporters or his family or his fellow officers? There are people coming forward, a lot of the people who perhaps it would be are staying silent, perhaps they're witnesses. We simply don't know at this point but it's not as if we aren't interested in hearing as much as possible about the officer's perception or what went on.
In the George Zimmerman case you did have a number of family members, friends of George Zimmerman coming out early on. How important do you believe that was certainly in the public perception?
O'MARA: Well, isn't the (inaudible), for the trial itself it shouldn't have it much but for the public perception it was very, very important. As you remember in the Zimmerman case, the Martin family through a Ben Crump and others came out very strong and had a very strong narrative, turned out not to be true compare to the facts that were then presented but they had a very strong narrative.
What I've noticed in this case is that Darrell Wilson's supporters are quite silent. I'm very surprise that he doesn't have a lawyer who is being vocal, not necessarily the facts to the case but at least give Darrel Wilson a face, give him a support so that people know there are in fact two sides of the story that are coming out and I think it's very important that we balance it.
In Zimmerman case, it was so important because we knew we're going to face a jury and we didn't want that jury to only hear one side of the story, same thing here.
COOPER: Neil, do we know that the officer has an attorney? And I know there is a defense fund, I think its raise some $166,000 so far but do we know has he hired attorney yet?
BRUNTRAGER: Well, I got a pretty good finger on that poll and I will tell you that I am sure that he is represented by counsel but no one has announced publicly that they are representative. I think in light of what Mark said and I think this is important. If I were advising him right now, I'd tell him to keep his head low. I'd tell the family to keep quiet. I mean, the narrative is so far ahead of them at this point. Any information they put out is going to be argued about and discredited.
COOPER: So you're saying just wait to whatever happens ...
BRUNTRAGER: I think you keep your head down.
COOPER: ... (inaudible) to testify in the grand jury ...
BRUNTRAGER: Sure.
COOPER: ...wait to whatever happens legally.
BRUNTRAGER: Right. Create no expectation other than when the time comes I'm going to have a story to tell and I think the really important thing is get it all out there. We still don't have anything (inaudible) Anderson ...
COOPER: Right ...
BRUNTRAGER: We're guessing, we're listening to rumors. And again, that's what we do but that's a big problem.
COOPER: And not just rumors I mean Mark O'mara in this case it is, you know, a number of eye witnesses who are saying they witness things but forensic evidence ...
O'MARA: Right.
COOPER: ... we know virtually nothing other than the results of the second autopsy. Mark O'mara, I appreciate you being with us. Neil Bruntrager, thank you so much ...
BRUNTRAGER: All right pleasure Anderson. Thank you.
COOPER: ... appreciate it.
Coming up, we have new details about the death of American journalist Jim Foley. The failed attempt to rescue him and how much money his terrorist captor demanded in ransom before ultimately killing him, that's next.
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COOPER: Beyond anything we have seen, that is Defense Secretary Hagel blunt assessment of ISIS. He said that as new details emerged about the terror group's latest blood thirsty act, the murder of American journalist Jim Foley, reports that his captors, his killers demanded a ransom of a hundred million euros. It's more than $132 million dollars in exchange for his release. That according to the president of GlobalPost, the online publication of Foley was working for when he was abducted in Syria back in 2012.
It says the company did try to raise some money but never took $132 million to figure seriously. There was never any true negotiation that ISIS just made demands. At a Pentagon briefing late this afternoon, Defense Secretary Hagel and Joint Chief Chairman Martin Dempsey spoke about the failed U.S. mission to rescue Foley and others that happened just this summer and about ISIL tactics in general.
Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joins me now with more. So Barbara, let's talk about what we said today, raising the alarm the Secretary Hagel did about ISIS, specifically what were his points?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENTS: His comments got an awful lot of attention Anderson. I just want to read them to you very quickly. Hagel asked about the threat that Isis post. He said another Al-Qaeda, another 9/11 type threat. And he said, "This is beyond anything we've seen so we must prepare for everything and the only way you do that, you should take a cold steely, hard look at it and get ready beyond anything we've seen."
I have to tell you, most intelligence analyst in the government that we speak to say they don't anticipate at this point that ISIS is really focusing so much on trying to attack the U.S. homeland. They're really focused right now on the consolidating their positions in the Middle East, possibly attacking U.S. entries overseas which is a problem enough but not coming to the United States, at least not any time soon much more focused on the Middle East and they are vicious, violent and brutal at it. Anderson.
COOPER: You asked Secretary Hagel and Joint Chief Chairman Dempsey about why was this very secret mission reveal? What did they say about that?
STARR: It was extraordinary. You know, this -- a hostage rescue by U.S. special forces is one of the most secretive things they do. They never talk about it. They never reveal anything about it but both men said that they agreed to reveal that the raid had taken place on July 4rth weekend, failed as it was because they knew the news media organizations were about to report it and they thought -- and the decision was made by the White House, come out, acknowledge that it happened, try in at least keep a lead on some of them more -- the most sensitive details about how it happened. And was it really a failed rate? That's one of the big debates right now. Officials will tell you that they had good intelligence, that the hostages were there but by the time the mission was able to arrive at the site, by the time the commanders got there the hostages were gone.
COOPER: Wow. It's such a dangerous mission indeed. Barbara Starr, thank you very much.
And David Rohde has a unique perspective. He's been on the program a lot. He's a journalist who was kidnapped, held captured by the Taliban for several months before he was able to escape. He had a call from (inaudible) saying that Foley's death is a wake up call about the United State's policy of not negotiating or paying ransom in these cases, European countries take a different approach. And David as were about to speak I just wanted to let you know there maybe some noise. This is a group probably about 60 or so, protesters who are starting to march and passed our location now.
This is really the first kind of relatively larger group that we've seen. They're going to be marching up the ground up to now. It's really been a lot of people and kind of standing around and much more kind of casual atmosphere. So this is a group probably, as I said about 60 or maybe 70 or so.
But David, you've written that the question of ransoms has to emerge from the shadows because there's a real difference between how the United States deals with kidnappings and now, western European nations do. Explain what you mean about this conversation needs to come out of the shadows.
DAVID ROHDE, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, REUTERS: Well, what's happening in Jim Foley's death represents it is that European countries are paying ransom. There were more French journalist and Spanish journalist who are held captive with Jim Foley and Steven Sotloff, the American journalist that's still alive. And those European journalists were ransomed and they're home and they are safe. You know, obviously Jim Foley is, you know, suffered a horrible death. And I just feel -- I'm trying the sort of start a debate here.
There's no simple answer. These are impossible cases but we need to talk about this. We need to sort of hold the Europeans accountable for paying, you know, ransoms that now total over a hundred million dollars Al-Qaeda affiliates and I think this hybrid approach, the U.S. doesn't pay ransom, the Europe does. It's not working. It's not deterring kidnappings and it's not consistently safeguarding hostages.
COOPER: And also I mean paying as you said, it's huge sums of money, the New York Times first reported and it really has becoming major source of income for a lot of these groups wherein even probably more kidnappings. Do you hope that Western Europe gets on the same page as the United States in terms of not paying for the return of their citizens? Basically having a policy if they're not paying the ransom?
ROHDE: I think that's a better approach and I want to be fair to the Europeans. The U.S. policy has actually no government ransoms but in the United States, if there is a captive, the family of that captive can pay a ransom, the person's organizations, a news organization or if they work for an oil company, they can pay a ransom and that's money going to a terrorist group and technically that's a violation of U.S. law. That's material support to a terrorist organization but the U.S. government will turn a blind eye to that private ransom.
The problem is the market price that the European government have set is so high. French allegedly paid $10 million in one case, it was 40 million total, 10 million each for four captives last year. Families can't come up with $10 million, organizations can't come up with that money and it put the Foley family in an insane position. As you mentioned, you know, the Islamic save one at over $100 million in ransom for Jim Foley.
COOPER: You also wrote that you know the major eight organizations, that doesn't even send Americans into dangerous spots anymore. They said, Europeans because they are counties are willing to pay ransom, that's incredible.
ROHDE: Yes. And let's get back to why this has to come out of the shadows. It's working. Kidnapping as a tactic, it's spreading. It's raising new demands of money. It's changing away eight organizations are operating. It's changing the way, you know, journalist are operating that one of the victims of what's happen to Jim Foley or the people of Syria. There are not journalists on the ground in Syria because these kidnappings are so wide spread. And again, we did talked about this issue and there's no strategy. And I think the raid was ...
COOPER: Right.
ROHDE: ... a the good step but it's just -- I don't hear anything for the administration or from Europe about how they're going to encounter this growing problem.
COOPER: But -- and discussions between. And David Rohde, I appreciate you've being on again. Thank you.
Up next, more from Ferguson when we come back. We're going to take a remarkable look at the scenes that just played out not far from here.
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COOPER: I want to go to our Jake Tapper, he just witness quite a scene not too far from here. Jake, what did you say?
JAKE TAPPER, CNN REPORTER: Well, the marchers have stared up again it's about 75 to 100 of them marching very peaceful, very organized but one of the most remarkable scenes that we've witness this evening Anderson have to do with the stars welcome that Missouri State Highway Patrol Captain Ron Johnson who as you know is in charge of security here, walking around, pressing the flash, talking to people at the voter registration table, talking to citizens being praised.
And then this scene, when he went to the clergy tent and a number of clergymen came to him, praying with him, put their hands on him, said that he was here to be in charge of security not because he's an African-American man but because Jesus picked him, Jesus anointed to him. It was a very intense moment and really a very strong sign of support for Captain Johnson from the religious community here in Ferguson. Now, I ask Captain Johnson if he had any intention of running through office, I ask him that after he visited the voter registration table, he said, no, not at all.
But as you've seen, in the last week he was appointed to be in charge of security one week ago today. Really, star has been born here in Missouri. Anderson.
COOPER: I think we'd just lost Jake. I'd just lost your mic. Jake, I appreciate that. That really is an extraordinary scene and I think there was also Pastor White who we had on earlier who was actually leading that prayer for Captain Johnson for early two weeks now. Daily life has ground a hall for those who live in this neighborhood. For some it's been nothing short of a crisis. They're seeking help and finding. Our George Howell, reports.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not just because of the protest that we were already suffering before that happen but it just gotten so much worst because even if like this public transportation, it's so hard to get on the bus to get to work and things like that for some people. So ...
GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At night?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah. Even in a day time because sometimes in the day time, the busses don't want to go up and down the street because -- the other day my brother was on the West Florissant bus. He said that bus got shot at. I don't know who did it but, it's just dangerous so the busses don't even want to go to the area anymore.
HOWELL: So you're here. I know that kids aren't loving this. It's pretty hot up here right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.
HOWELL: But you think you can get some help here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hopefully so.
HOWELL: Thank you for taking (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
HOWELL: And, you know, what you see here, you see all around. If you take a look, right now, we're at the center that has been setup to help people with food needs, with utilities, people who have rent needs because a lot of people just can't get to work or work has been eluded so work doesn't exist anymore. And let's go through here. It's a lot of people in this community right now who are waiting inline for any help that they can get. REGINA GREER, UNITED WAY OF GREATER ST. LOUISE: Poll started at 5:00 this morning and by 8:00 we already had about 200 people that were here to take services. We have tons of accounts lists, that's a major critical need that people need right now. So we got several of our agency partners, better family live, boys and girls club. A number of people that are here just to be on hand to provide counseling services for adult and children because we're finding that for children are needing a great deal of counseling too.
HOWELL: What's it been like of her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For her, she's been a little clingy. She's kind of on itch. I hope it gets better. I really, really hope it gets better. We can't afford for her not to get any better. So if it gets any worst we're all probably going to have to relocate out here. We do want justice. Don't get us wrong, wants to get the agitators out of here. We want justice but we want it in the right way. We want it in a peaceful way. We want to respect the family of Michael Brown. They're going to through enough as it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOWELL: So our cameras, you know, they're focused on what's happening here on the street, the protest and any violence but there is another story playing out in the back streets. It's people who just rely on public transportation to get to work. It's people, you know, who need that.
COOPER: And were most of the people from Ferguson?
HOWELL: Yeah.
COOPER: At the community center?
HOWELL: They say, Anderson that really it's people who came in from other cities from Saint Louis, from Chicago, just to cause problems.
COOPER: Well it's nice to see that the sense of community here and people helping one another. George, I appreciate the report. We'll be right back.
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