Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
NYPD On Alert After Sydney Attack; Second Victim Of Sydney Siege Identified; Cheney On Interrogation, "Would Do It Again In A Minute; Sony Tries To Reel In Hacked Information; Sony Lawyers To Media: Stop Reporting On Hack; Manhunt For PA Shooting Spree Suspect; Search For Man Who Killed Ex-Wife, 5 Others; Bill Cosby's Wife Breaks Her Silence; Camille Cosby Defends Her Husband; Bill Cosby's Wife Asks "Who Is The Victim?"
Aired December 15, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are - they are throwing something into the doorway. And we have just seen another hostage pulled out. A woman has been brought out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, there might will be a stun grenade in this situation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They can see a woman there from these live pictures from Martin Place being carried out by officers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can just see now -- I don't know whether you can see on this live shot. A whole bunch of paramedics are running out from Martin Place. So they are entering from Elizabeth Street and they are running up Martin Place towards the Lindt Cafe. I have counted at least four stretchers going to that way so far.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, we can see that on the live shot there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ambulance is rising through (inaudible) now bringing patients out. We had an ambulance driver ask from camera people to move out of the way because they had a patient that needed to bring out. They then turned around and sped out. I saw a multiple ambulances coming out -- racing out of the scene just a moment ago. And shortly after about three police cars race in towards the city, towards the center of the scene.
I just know that the gunfire in the air, it's really quite an incredible scene. The city is still definitely silent apart from the sirens and the (inaudible) from where I am and the occasional rally of ammunitions, of gunfire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Those were the sights and the sounds early this morning, in the early morning hours in Sidney as it happens. Since then we've learned more about the incident and the hostage taker. Anna Coren is following that angle. Jim Acosta on how the White House responded. I want to begin with Anna in Sydney. In terms of why this guy did this. How much do we know at this point about his motivation?
ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Look Anderson, we still don't know what his motivations are. Obviously, he has pledge some sort of allegiance to ISIS, but it would appear that he's very much a lone wolf, operating by himself. I was certainly learning extremely disturbing details and questions are being asked, why was this man on the street? He was out on bail on two separate and very serious matters. One of those being 40 counts of sexual assaults, involving seven alleged victims.
The other being an accessory to murder of his example-wife who is found stabbed multiple times and was set alight as she was found dead in her apartment to be last year.
He also pleaded guilty to writing appalling letters to the families of dead Australians soldiers. So clearly a man who has been a risk, a man who had a criminal history and was known to police. I mean, some of the reports out that he was he was known to police for up to seven years. So seriously -- serious questions I should say, Anderson, being asked is to why he was out on the streets.
COOPER: And I know its kind of early in the hour and the investigation is still going on. Is it clear at this point how the two hostages who were killed, how they died?
COREN: No, the police held a press conference, I should say earlier today. And they did not release details. However you mentioned Tori Johnson, that 34 year old manager of the Lindt Cafe, which is about a block from where we are. There are local reports that he tried to tackle the gun man which is why perhaps this siege -- I should say the police, the commandos decided to storm this cafe just after 2:00 a.m. They claimed that they heard gun shots and that's why they entered. But they have details that we have at this day, Anderson.
COOPER: There had also been a number of arrests and the terror alert in Australia had been raised back in September.
COREN: Yeah, that's absolutely right. The reason being that Australia suddenly became a target for Islamic Extremist, the reason being was that it was involved in the war against ISIS. When the United States called for allies to fight the Islamic State, Australia was right out there. And, you know, they've sent hundred of troops to help train the Kurdish and the Iraqi forces. There are Australian, you know, fighter jets taking part in that aggressive air campaign over Iraq and Syria.
And, you know, we also need to note that when ISIS put out that call for those lone wolf attacks, they mentioned Australia in a particular. You know there are 100 Australian citizens that authorities know of who have gone to Iraq and Syria to fight with ISIS. So that's what they know of, let alone that the support is here on the ground. We need to stress it is a small minority. But nonetheless there are people here who sympathize with ISIS, who support ISIS. And clearly this man, this armed gunman who took these 17 hostages he sympathize with them. He was on the radar of the police. But clearly they weren't watching him yesterday. COOPER: Anna Coren, appreciate the update. Now, let's go to our Jim Acosta. Now, Jim, I understand the President had some tough words for ISIS today, speaking to troops.
JIM ACOSTA, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right Anderson. And this was a big concern over at the White House where there's National Security Team earlier toady. The White House said the President was receiving regular updates on the hostage siege in Sydney from his counter terrorist adviser Lisa Monaco.
The Obama Administration did offer assistance to the Australians during this crisis. And National Security Officials at the White House are staying in close contact with their counterparts here in Washington, at the Australian Embassy and in Sydney. That cooperation is why U.S. authorities were apparently aware of his gunman in Sydney. No word yet on whether the President has spoken with the Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott. But it is worth noting as Anna was saying that Australia has been a top ally in the U.S. led coalition fight against ISIS. And just this afternoon the President said the U.S. and its partners are "Hammering ISIS." And that they will be defeated. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: We have blunted their momentum and we have put them on the defensive. And these terrorists are learning the same thing that the leaders of Al Qaeda have learned the hard way. They may think that they can chalk up some quick victories, but our reach is long. We do not give up. You threaten America, you will have no safe haven. We will find you and like petty tyrants and terrorists before you, the world is going to leave you behind and keep moving on without you, because we will get you.
ACOSTA: And speaking on the war Al Qaeda the President used today's speech to note that the combat mission in Afghanistan is wrapping up at the end of this year, Anderson. But we should point out the U.S. is leaving nearly 11, 000 troops in Afghanistan in 2015, a thousand more than the President previously planned. So this war still goes on, Anderson.
COOPER: Right, Jim Acosta, I appreciate it. Thanks. Let's dig deeper now. This kind of attack and the kind of global attention surrounding a far from new (ph). More on that angle now from Jason Carroll.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JASON CARROLL, CNNCORRESPONDENT: September 5th, 1972, the Munich Summer Olympics were underway. Swimming superstar Mark Spitz was going for a record seven gold. Millions tuned in but ended up witnessing a tragedy that played out on television's all over the world. Members of Palestinian terrorist group disguised as athletes target the Israeli team. Two Israelis are killed almost immediately inside the Olympic Village, 9 are taken hostage. Their captors demands, the release of 234 prisoners. Nearly 24 hours after it began, it ends during a failed rescue attempt at German airport. And then this announcement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are all gone.
CARROLL: Experts say the outcome might have been avoided.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The real problem with the Munich is -- was the lack coordination between the command, between the tactical people on the ground and the negotiators.
CARROLL: October 23rd, 2002, a popular musical is playing to a crowded theater in Moscow. Suddenly approximately 50 armed Chechen rebels attack. They take 850 hostages and demand removal of Russian troops from Chechnya.
Two and half days later Russian authorities pump in unknown gas into the theater and then storm it. 129 hostages are killed and all 39 terrorist. Chechen terrorists strike again two years later September 1st, 2004 at a school in a town of Beslan. Similar demands, the same tragic outcome, about 1,200 children and adult are taken hostage. Russia authorities storm the school on the third day. At least 334 hostages are killed including 186 children.
The high seas, the scene of high drama, April 8th, 2009 when Somali pirates tried to hijack U.S. Cargo Ship, the Maersk Alabama sailing the Indian Ocean. Most of the ships crew hid on board during the ambush. But Captain Richard Phillips is taken hostage. The pirates hold him a small life boat as Naval forces move in and try to negotiate his release. The five day stand off ends in a surprise night time assault. Three of the pirates are killed. Phillips survives.
RICHARD PHILLIPS, CAPTAIN OF THE MV MAERSK ALABAMA: I'm not a hero, the military is.
CARROLL: And now hostage stand off in Sydney has reached its end. The self described Muslim cleric dead so are two of his hostages.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Why two hostages died is going to teach a lot of lessons for future incidences like this. This is a new type of threat in open societies like in Australia and the United States. And we're going to have to be nimble in response.
CARROLL: Nimble and keenly aware of the past. Jason Carroll, CNN, New York .
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We'll talk exactly more about that about what can be learned from this attack in the event and many experts say the likely event that it will happen again somewhere else possibly even in the United States. As always, a quick reminder make sure you set your DVR so you can watch 360 whenever you like.
Coming up next my conversation with a former Islamic extremist, Maajid Nawas about who this gun man was and what motivated him and others like him. You've heard the term used to describe the gun man, is a lone wolf. Maajid Nawas thinks that's the wrong to look at it. He'll explain why when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well the events today in Sydney only underscored the global concern about what happens when a radical Islam connects with disturbed individuals. We all remember Forth Hood, Ottowa, Canada, the knifing in a London suburb and now its Sydney, Australia.
In the last hour I had a fascinating conversation with - on this subject with Maajid Nawas. He's director of a counter extremist group called Quilliam Foundation. He's also contributor to the Daily Beast. He's a former radical himself, who is now trying to extend the tide of Islamic Extremism around the world. Here's the interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Law Enforcement has been saying that this type of lone wolf attack is at the ones that they are most concerned with. Do you believe it's a mistake to call this guy a lone wolf?
MAAJID NAWAS, DAILY BEAST CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, I think it is a mistake. I would use the term self-starter. But the reason I think lone wolf is...
COOPER: A self-starter?
NAWAS: Yes. And I think it doesn't necessary describe the phenomenon correctly to use the term lone wolf. And the reason I say that is President Obama in the speech you just played on air said we want to destroy the terrorist organization known as ISIL. Part of the problem is we took that approach with Al Qaeda. We took out their leaders, we took out Bin Laden himself. And what we saw was a metastasization of the phenomenon. And our worse nightmares came true and ISIL emerged.
COOPER: And you have always said it's not enough for Muslims to simply say, "Well look, I don't believe in beheading hostages." You said people have to go farther than that.
NAWAS: Well yes, I mean there was a Twitter campaign off the back of this attack. And it's a good campaign. I'll ride with you where Australian non-Muslim saying to their fellow Australian Muslims, don't worry about revenge attacks. We'll ride with you in public transport and protect you.
Now that's - it's a very, you know, it's a commendable thing. But, you know, I often ask well, you know, how many -- if we expect as Muslims -- if we expect non-Muslims to speak out against anti-Muslim bigotry. And as was evidenced in this all ride hashtag campaign or Twitter, how many times do we see Muslim's starting such hashtags to say actually we condemn Islamist and Jihadist terrorism.
COOPER: This hostage taker, his former attorney has said that this is a one off, random individual, not acting in concert with any one, calling him a damaged individual who has done something outrageous. Is it - do you think its dangerous to kind of just kind of say okay, well this is a one off thing? NAWAS: Absolutely, it's very dangerous. I mean look, we have the school shootings in America as phenomenon. And again they aren't runoff. But there is a difference here. And the difference is that in the case of Islamist inspired self-starters there's a whole bunch of iconography and symbolism, and ideology underneath it, that inspires multiple runoffs.
And what stage do these multiple runoffs stop becoming runoffs and we start recognizing that we are dealing with a phenomenon of the atomization of self-starters Islamist terrorist across the world. What I fear is that we have simply added to the dangers that we are already trying to - desperately trying to prepare for.
COOPER: And I mean, ISIS themselves issued a statement in September asking for Muslims to kill Australian nationals amongst others. You have no doubt we are going to see more of this in other places all around the world. Because it only takes - again it doesn't take a well trained individual with an international connections, it can be as you say, a self-starter.
NAWAS: Yes. And self starter is -- I used that word because lone wolf would imply that weren't in touch with others. But we know from this individual - this man who has just been shut dead in the hostage siege that he was already radicalized. He had a social media presence.
They already in touch with each other anyway. And its important to mention that Australian Police conducted a series of raids because they had intelligence of such an attack would take place. Now, what happened in response to those raids is that Australian Muslims took to the streets protesting the Australian police reaction. And said it was heavy handed. And an over reaction. And now we have this attack.
So all of us collectively have to start getting real with this problem. And recognizing that there is indeed this challenge of these often, you know, pathological individuals who will use this ideology as an excuse to live out their violent fantasies. And we all have to bind together and start challenging this. And make this ideology the stuff of yesterday.
COOPER: Maajid Nawas, its great to have to you on again. Thank you. Very smart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: A lot to talk about. With us now is former FBI Hostage Negotiator and former member of the New York joint terrorism task force Chris Voss. Also former FBI and CIA counter terrorism official Philip Mudd and Jonathan Gilliam, former Navy Seal, FBI Special Agent Air Marshall and Currently CEO of the Crisis Management Firm United States continued service.
Philip, do you believe that it's inevitable there are going to be more of these kind of whether it's self-starters or lone wolfs, what do you want to call them, these kind of attacks in Europe, in United States and elsewhere? PHILIP MUDD, FORMER SENIOR OFFICAL, FBI AND CIA: Sure. I just think this is a numbers game, Wolf. Its not - it is a question of ideology I think Maajid is dead on in talking about these folks as self- starters and not home grown. It is a global movement they are joining. Its not something that they built out of their basement by themselves. But if you just look at numbers, let's talk about the conversation we've had about Syria and Iraq.
Hundreds of people from North America, thousands from Europe, if you assume that they represent maybe 1 percent of those who might sympathize with ISIS movement, you start getting a sense in my mind if someone has followed this for 25 years at magnitude of the problem we have, thousands, tens of thousands of people who may not be inspired to go Syria or Iraq but who share views like this fellow had in Sydney.
COOPER: So Philip, how hard is it to track these guys then ?
MUDD: Look, I think its extremely difficult. The first thing I'd be doing in this case if I was sitting at the FBI, I'd be talking to Director Mueller, the former director saying, "We got to do an after action." Maybe in concert with our friends in Australia to say, "Can we find this kind of people in the United States?" The problem you have in contrast of what we've face with Al Qaeda, you could chase with the Al Qaeda core in 2001, the courier networks. You could chase communications. You could chase fund raisers. You can chase the leadership that fled Afghanistan.
Find me a handhold with somebody like this, somebody who has a bit of ideology but who is mentally unstable. Find me a handhold that you could chase, a vulnerability is an intelligence professional. When I look at a case like this Anderson, what I see is a sheet of ice. I cant find a handhold to work against.
COOPER: Jonathan, in terms of how law enforcement responds to an incident like this or in the United States, are we ready for this?
JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Well I don't think we're completely ready for it. I think a lot of tactics, a lot of thinking has to be changed. And one of the biggest things we have to change is the realization of what your previous guest was saying there, is that these people are not necessarily somebody that you are just going to able to go and take out. So when something happen, like the Boston bombing for instance. It's good to educate the public because the public, they're going to be the ones that are there when it happens.
So they have to be more aware. I will say though that a lot of these people aren't just self starters as to Boston bombing. There are more than yourself starters, they're Zealots because their new into their religion I mean there are prison is one of biggest places for a lot of these people to be converted. And any body that, you know, we're just talking, I'm Christian and a lot of people when they first find their faith they're very easily indoctrinated into a certain type of believe within their faith.
And if somebody is in prison and their indoctrinated this or if they join a mosque and they're inspired, it's very easy for those people that are targeting them to go after them and I will say this that really I think where -- he was just talking about that sheet of ice and not been able to see them. The reality is the one thing that we can do is Muslims can start policing their own, because we're not going to be able to do it. It's up to them. And I think law enforcement really needs to start working and with Muslim population. And the Muslin population needs to start reaching out to law enforcement.
COOPER: Chris in terms of negotiating. How -- I mean, how do you about negotiating with somebody like this? You know, it's not you're -- somebody just hold on of a bank because they want money for the bank.
CHRIS VOSS, FORMER FBI HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: Well, it's studying the ideology from out end and understanding where there coming from and what their goals are, as simple as it sound, I mentioned this before, it's effectively cognitive about empathy or even sociopath sympathy. You may able to take a look at their position and not making any judgment on it at all. They become -- eminently predictable once you get into the situation in, you know, where they come from. You start to look at have it communicated and as we discuss earlier whether or not they seem to be a very specific killing journey. And you try to disrupt that journey.
COOPER: But Chris, it's interesting I mean, we were talking in the last hour with Jonathan about this how, you know, with school shooting pretty combine (ph) the thoughts used to be -- with tactical units wait before you go in, you know, kind of find out exactly where everybody is. Now, the thought is go as quickly as you can because if these things actually -- with school shootings they end very quickly. I'm wondering in a situation like this as negotiator. Are there times when you say, "You know what? Negotiation is not going to work here. This person is determined to die and we need to move quickly."
VOSS: Well, you can't negotiate a gunfire to a riot. You have to understand what you walking into at the moment and that - the (inaudible) situation. The school shootings are ongoing gun fight. A gunman shows up at the school and begins taken lives. These types of situation whether the hostage taker is intention getting mode. He is settling things down and lining the windows if you will, with hostages, would be unwise to simply barge into that, regardless to the tactical training because it would lost a lot of hostages and they did. So look at the (inaudible) of the situation when you arrive and base on what the hostage taker is doing at the time, if you go, you go if it's appropriate, if you try to have it more deliberate assault where fewer lives are lost then you take your time again for (inaudible).
COOPER: So it's so interesting to me how though -- as result like the Mumbai attacks, even thought I think was that more centrally controlled that a handful of people operating different locations can have a major impact on the live the city, can essentially kind of bring a city to halt through with just a few, you know, grenades of just handgun even. They don't need advance weaponry and huge amount of training. MUDD: Well, I remember sitting at the table at the agency, we use to do nightly threat briefings with director Tenet, the CIA director in 2002, 2003. And I remember one thing happen that I've never anticipated. I though we were facing the architects of 911. Then we started to see attacks in Saudi Arabia, attacks in East Africa, attacks in Madrid, attacks in London. And I started thinking we're not only facing Al-Qaeda, we were facing affiliated organization across Africa into the Philippines, into London and then something happen at about 2008, Anderson.
We started to see at Minneapolis, Minnesota, in New York, across this country. We started to see individuals you remember on the West Coast. Al-Qaeda was thinking about attacking a Christmas free ceremony. We're seeing the genesis of a revolutionary movement that is not connected to a core group. And if you want to try to find those guys have a good time because I don't how you do.
COOPER: Philip Mudd. I appreciate you being on, Jonathan Gilliam as well..
MUDD: Sure.
COOPER: ... and Chris Voss as well.
Short time ago is spoke with Clover Moore, Lord Mayor of Sydney, Australia about what's been a very though day obviously and the tragic day in her city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: In terms of the hostages how were they doing? I know there were injuries, law enforcement officers was also injured. How are they now?
LORD MAYOR CLOVER MOORE, SYDNEY: Well, we know that a number of them are in hospital. Some of them quite seriously and we haven't really had a racing report from the hospital on that. We know that five escaped and they're incredibly, incredibly fortunate. And we know that the two were killed and people are showing their sorrow and support for their families by leaving flowers in Martin Place. (inaudible) where all these occurred.
COOPER: At this point do, you know, how it was that the hostages were killed?
MOORE: No, we don't the police really want thorough investigation, step by step. And then we'll inform the public about what happened. We know that all of yesterday for many, many, many hours the whole incident was managed very professionally and very calmly. And I think the shooting was set off by action by the perpetrator. And then we saw the sort of very, very sad and shocking event that unfolded.
When the perpetrator was killed and those two hostages were also killed and then others were seriously injured. So we -- I mean it's still early days and all that information will be made public when it's quite clear what the sequence of events was. COOPER: And as far as, you know, at this stage in the investigation. You believe he was acting alone?
MOORE: What we do know is that this was one of isolated (inaudible), a person with violent background. It's a sort of thing that can happen in any place, anytime. It was just those poor people who went in to get a cup of coffee or by some chocolate for a friend for Christmas, got caught up in this terrible situation. Some of them escaped, two are dead and others are seriously injured. So it is just one of the shocking -- one of events that -- and that perpetrator was acting on this own, a lone wolf, not associated with anyone else.
But it's a truly shocking thing to have in our city because our city is a very harmonious, socially diverse, welcoming and inclusive city, we proud ourselves on that and we very, very strongly believe that this is terrible one of instant doesn't change who we are and the way we feel about our city.
COOPER: Mayor Clover Moore, I appreciate your being with us under these circumstances. Thank you.
MOORE: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well there's always for more in the story and others, go to cnn.com. Just ahead former Vice President Dick Cheney says the CIA interrogation techniques use after 9/11 techniques, many called torture worked and he do it again. I'll speak with the former FBI special agent who investigated post 9/11 cases, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Former Vice President Dick Cheney has made a clear that he think the Senate intelligent committees torture report is full of crap in his word, it's a direct quote, he said it on Fox News last week. He also said he thinks the U.S. government was perfectly justified in doing it and he do it again and in a minute. Cheney isn't backing down at all from those kinds of comments and continue defending CIA interrogation techniques and appearance underneath the press, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. And our object is to get the guys who did 9/11 and it is to avoid another attack against the United States. I was prepared and we did we got the authorization from the President an authorization from the justice department to go forward to the program. It work, it work now for 13 years, we've avoided another mass casualty it had against the United States and we did capture Bin Laden. We did capture an often lot of the senior guys of Al-Qaeda who are responsible for that attack on 9/11. I do it in a minute.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, the torture report actually concluded at the so called enhance interrogation techniques as they call them, did not yield than any actionable intelligence. In short it claims they didn't work.
Joining me is Ali Soufan, a former FBI Supervisor Special Agent who investigated the supervise cases including events surrounding 9/11. He is now CEO of the Soufan Group.
I appreciate you being with us. When you hear Dick Cheney saying these techniques, what a lot people consider torture, what they call enhance interrogation techniques led us to Bin Laden. You say categorically that is not true.
ALI SOUFAN, FORMER FBI SUPERVISORY SPEICAL AGENT: This is absolutely not true. And I testified about that in 2009 in front of the Senate. By the way I'm the only person who actually was able to raise his right hand and testify under oath about the program. And today, we see the largest comprehensive investigation in Senate history.
COOPER: Millions of documents.
SOUFAN: Millions of document, CIA document. 6,700 pages, supported with 38,000 footnotes. So these are the evidence. Talk is cheap, people can say whatever he want, Mr. Cheney can say he was on Mars yesterday and he just came back. The facts are the fact.
COOPER: You said n the past that this torture techniques actually led us away from Bin Laden. How so?
SOUFAN: Well, the torture techniques led us away from cooperating with each other. As you see from their report it build wall between the different agencies.
COOPER: What's interesting in these documents is you hear from in real time the cable sent by CIA officers who oppose the program.
SOUFAN: Sure.
COOPER: And it was their higher Ops telling them from Washington, "No, keep going. This person has more information".
SOUFAN: Sure, absolutely. And the funniest thing as Mr. Cheney has been talking about in the last 13 years, this program kept us safe. Well this program has been shut since 2005, after a lot of these people you're talking about from the CIA came back to CIA headquarters and said "Look, you know what? We have a problem with what's happening on the black sites." And the CIA inspector general conducted an investigation that resulted in shelving the program.
COOPER: It interesting though former president Cheney on -- former Vice President Cheney on media press, A, refuses to even kind of address the quarter or the people who actually were innocent and these techniques were used against. Basically he just says they were all terrorists, they were all guilty. And when he was ask to define torture, he really refused to do it. This is basically what he's answer was. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: Well, torture to me Chuck is an American citizen on a cellphone making a last call with his four young daughters shortly before he burns to death in the upper levels of the Trade Center in New York City on 9/11. There is this notion that somehow there's moral equivalents between what the terrorist did and what we do and that's absolutely not true. We were very careful to stop sort of torture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: No one is actually making a moral equivalence argument between what terrorist did on 9/11 and these techniques that were used on, you know, a number of people by contractor.
SOUFAN: Well it's interesting to make these emotional statements. But these statements are not the fact. For example most of the information as the Senate report now tells us what obtained that resulted in us stopping the shooting of plots, apprehending more terrorist resulted without torture, resulted without enhance interrogation techniques. These are the facts. And I know that first hand.
COOPER: Well let's go into detail on that because in particular Abu Zubaydah...
SOUFAN: Sure.
COOPER: ... addressed in this report. President Bush had come forward years ago saying essentially Abu Zubaydah stop taking, these techniques were use on him. It led to actionable intelligence. Listen to what President Bush said because you were involved, you were the first one talking to...
SOUFAN: Sure.
COOPER: ... Abu Zubaydah, so, you know, first hand.
SOUFAN: Yup.
COOPER: Let's listen with President said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FRM PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: During questioning he had first disclosed what he thought was nominal information and then stopped all cooperation. We knew that Zubaydah had more information that can save innocent lives. But he stops talking. As this question proceeded it became clear that he had received training on how to resist interrogation. And so the CIA use an alternative set of procedures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Whether President Bush knew this at the time when he said or not, is what he said true?
SOUFAN: He's definitely misinformed. He is definitely misinformed on the issue of Abu Zubaydah and the timeline is very clear in the Senate report. Abu Zubaydah was providing actionable intelligence from the first hour.
COOPER: And knew this because you were the guy who is providing this.
SOUFAN: Because I was the guy who he's interrogating him my partner and I. Abu Zubaydah give us information about KSM and that identified KSM as the mastermind of 9/11. Before...
COOPER: So why did he give information he wasn't if he wasn't even tortured.
SOUFAN: Because this is art of interrogation, this is not the very first time we interrogated a person. We interrogated people who would be involved in the USS call. We interrogated people involve in the East Africa and industry bombings. The intelligent community the FBI, the military, we interrogated people during the Cold War, during World War II, you know. So they teach us, they train us on how to interrogate people who don't want to give information.
However, in the issue of Abu Zubaydah, what the President said he stopped talking. He did not spot talking, they left him, they put him in isolation for 47 days, Anderson. 47 day, not even one soul talking to him.
COOPER: So people to know, they pulled you out, you -- the first time you talk to him, he gave you Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
SOUFAN: Sure.
COOPER: Mastermind of 9/11.
SOUFAN: And give more information. Way more information about actionable intelligence and about threats that was going on the same.
COOPER: So if that was working, why were you pulled out?
SOUFAN: Because they have people looking from Washington. They had a contractor and said that's he's not getting all the information.
COOPER: That he knows more, his not given off.
SOUFAN: Yeah. For example if he did not admit he is the number three person on Al-Qaeda, that means he's not cooperating. Well we knew that Abu Zubaydah is not number three person on Al-Qaeda we knew he's not even Al-Qaeda member. And now the United States government actually dropped the fact that he is a member of Al-Qaeda from any charges against him. And...
COOPER: And yet you still have former CIA directors coming out saying he was a member of Al-Qaeda.
SOUFAN: I think that's fascinating. I think that's fascination after...
COOPER: Did just happen recently.
SOUFAN: Yeah, and then Wall Street journal article. I think that's fascinating that after all this years, after all this years we still have no idea who's who in the enemy.
COOPER: Ali Soufan. Good to have you again, thank you.
SOUFAN: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up, the latest on the hacker around the entertainment world embarrassing e-mails from Sony executives slamming the biggest stars in the world, stolen and leaked along with personal information, screen plays, documents and movies. What Sony is now trying to do to unplug the leak, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. Hollywood is reeling as hackers continue to leak more documents, including embarrassing e-mails from Sony executives as well as movie scripts and social security numbers in more than 47,000 people while the company tries to put the genie back in the bottle.
A lawyer hired by Sony demanded the media outlets, destroy the documents and not reporting them. At the same time, the hackers are promising there's more to come.
Pamela Brown reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAMELA BROWN: James Bond appears to be battling a new enemy, not on the big screen. The Sony hackers who call themselves guardians of peace are believed to have stolen an early version of the script for the upcoming Bond movie, Specter. And the concern is that they will leak it to the public.
Over the weekend, the group posted online, "We are preparing for you a Christmas gift. The gift will surely give you much more pleasure and put Sony Pictures into the worst state."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a gift for you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, the dog you're killing me, this cuteness.
BROWN: Christmas Day is when the interview is set release a comedy about in assassination attempt in North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un which the reclusive country has strongly condemned.
HOWARD BRAGMAN, VICE CHAIRMAN REPUTATION.COM: I don't think it's a good time to withdraw. I think it's a good time to stay in your ground. They've already weathered a very tremendous attack and I think they can take more of their strong people. BROWN: CNN has learned Sony still deciding of whether this interpositive film showing the assassination for international audiences.
Tonight, federal investigators are looking into whether North Korea is behind the unprecedented Hollywood hack, but it's opened up a treasure trove of confidential information from Sony and embarrassing e-mail exchanges about (inaudible) celebrities like Angelina Jolie and George Clooney.
GEORGE CLOONEY, ACTOR: That's right.
LEONARDO DICAPRIO, ACTOR: Aren't we (inaudible)?
CLOONEY: Yes.
BROWN: The latest leak shows Clooney was apparently upset by the bad reviews of his World War II drama, The Monument Men. E-mailing to Sony Exec Amy Pascal, "I fear I've let you all down. Not my attention. I apologize. I've just lost touch."
In a separate leaked e-mail exchange with the Sony Producer, Pascal called Leonardo Dicaprio's behavior despicable after he backed out of starring on the Steve Jobs biopic last October.
BRAGMAN: I hate to see what they have after sleeve next but it seems to be very conservative and actually very intelligent people doing this. They know how to damage the studio.
BROWN: As the leaks continue, they slowly (inaudible) out. Sony hired renowned trial lawyers David Boies who send a threatening letter to the media including CNN, asking it to stop publishing leaked information or face legal action. "If you do not comply with this request and the stolen information is used or disseminated by you in any manner.", the letter says. Sony will have no choice but to hold you responsible.
PAUL CALLAN, FORMER MEDIA LAW PROFESSOR SETON HALL UNIVERSITY: On the one hand. David Boies on behalf of Sony is going to argue that this is stolen material that the media is aiding and embedding a burglar in the night who is broken into a computer, stolen material and is now trying to get the benefit of it.
On the other side though, the media outlets are going to say, hey, this is material of enormous public interest and it doesn't matter how it came into our hands, the public has a right to know what goes on in this very important industry.
Pamela Brown, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The question now is if Sony can actually find a way to unring this bell, legally speaking. Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin, joins me.
So can they actually stop news organizations from publishing the information that comes from these e-mails?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This is an easy one. The answer is no. There is no legal impediment to any news organizations.
COOPER: Even if it's obtained -- even if the information is not obtained legally, that it's illegally hacked, once it's out there.
TOOBIN: Correct. So that's the key point. It's illegal to do the hacking. But if its place on a public website as these documents have been and they are what they are purport to be and there's no doubt that they are, there's really no legal barrier to...
COOPER: There's a Supreme Court case that says (inaudible), right?
TOOBIN: Well there are a lots of cases where basically if the governments -- if a document is public and it's true, there's really just no way a journalist can be stop from doing it unless it violates copyright or -- and none of those issues are present here. You know, it's certainly bad luck for Sony, but as a legal matter their remedy if they have one is against the people who did the hacking not the journalist.
COOPER: It does raise a lot ethical issues as well and Aaron Sorkin wrote up in the New York Times, basically taking news organizations who publishes information task. And he said, let's just say that every news outlet that did bidding of a guardians of peace which is this the people who did the hacking name themselves is morally treason, it's spectacularly dishonorable.
TOOBIN: Look, you know, its easy legal question but I think it's a hard question in terms of journalistic ethics and just general morality.
COOPER: It's not only (inaudible) Pentagon papers or something that has great importance of the future of the country.
TOOBIN: Right. I mean, the, you know, they're juicy, they're gossipy but they're not -- I don't of great national interest. Now, we can always manufacture a high-minded reason for what we do. We can say it's about, you know, the way executive talk about African-Americans. We can say it's about, you know, whether men and women are paid differently in big corporations, but mostly its gossip.
And gossip is news. But, you know, I think all of us who are, you know, reading it and talking about it, I have to think about, you know, they're but for the grace of God go high.
If people's private company e-mails are suddenly spread out over the internet, I don't any of us would be very happy about that.
COOPER: Jeffrey Toobin, thanks very much.
Up next, more breaking news tonight. A former U.S. Marine is the focus of a man hunt in Pennsylvania, right now. He's suspected killing six people, considered armed dangerous.
We'll bring update on that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well breaking news tonight. Intensive man hunt is underway right now in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania. This is the man they're looking for. He's 35 years old. His name is Bradley William Stone. He's a decorated former U.S. Marine. Allegedly, he killed six people early this morning about 50 miles Northwest of Philadelphia.
Authority say, he's armed and dangerous. And they're asking anyone with any information about he's whereabouts, please call 911.
Our Susan Candiotti, joins me now. So what do you have been learning about the shooter?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is apparently as how it all went down. You already talked about him being this ex- marine reservist who served in Iraq for three months.
But here is what happen and it started about 3:30 this morning, according to authorities. The rampage began when he allegedly shots and kills, first his former wife sister, her husband and their 14- yearl old daughter and then seriously wounds her 17-year old brother. And then about an hour later, he goes to the home of his ex-mother-in- law killing her and her elderly mother. Then he drives to his former wife's house kills her and takes away his two daughters wearing their pajamas. He drops them of one of his own neighbors about 20 miles away and they are safe.
Now, according to a law enforcement source, until the motive appears to be domestic. According to court papers it was not a happy divorce, child custody and support problems. Some neighbors say the two exes were constantly fighting, Anderson.
COOPER: And do authorities no anything about he's whereabouts tonight?
CANDIOTTI: You know, they don't. Our source is telling us, there's a possible siding in Doylestown which is about 25 miles away where all these began and our affiliate of (inaudible) says that he apparently attempted to cardiac a vehicle using a knife.
COOPER: All right. Well obviously, he's considered armed and dangerous.
And again, please anybody who has any information, call 911.
Susan Candiotti, thanks.
Just ahead, hit more breaking news. What Camille Cosby is now saying about their rape allegations her husband has been facing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Breaking news at this hour, Bill Cosby's wife is speaking out tonight in support of her husband. As you probably know, more than a dozen of women have accused the comedian in sexually assault in the number of years.
Camille Cosby has released a statement. CNN's Jean Casarez joins me now. So what did she said?
CASAREZ: She says a lot, Anderson. First of all, she talks about her husband as being a kind and generous and funny man. She also says this, "A different man has been portrayed in the media over the last two months. It is the portrait of a man I do not know. It is also a portrait painted by individuals and organizations whom many in the media have given a pass. There appears to be no vetting of my husband's accusers before stories are published or aired. An accusation is published, and immediately goes viral."
And Anderson as you know, we are responsible journalist. We do pre interview process. We do a vetting process before any one goes on our air.
COOPER: Bill Cosby's wife, she compared the allegation against her husband to Rolling Stone article at rape at UVA, right?
CASAREZ: She does. So it's very aware that she is knowledgeable about what is in the news cycle right now. And she talks about that we all follow the story of the alleged gang rape at University of Virginia in the fraternity house. She talks about the story being heart breaking but ultimately appears to be untrue.
And then she talks about how the media immediately linked her husband and this UVA story. And she concludes with saying but the question should be asked, who is the real victim in all of this? And she alluding to the fact that her husband is the victim.
COOPER: But she has not given an interview or spoken public. This was all through just a prepared statement, right?
CASAREZ: This is a statement she released a certain media entity. CNN asked for the statement and we received it just a short time ago.
COOPER: Casarez, thanks very much. A lot has happened in the last two hours especially in Sydney, Australia which is coming to grips with a hostage taking and the loss of two innocent lives. Tori Johnson, 34 years old who reportedly lost his life trying to disarm the gun man. And Katrina Dawson a 38 year old attorney and mom of three. We remember them tonight.
Others are in the hospital and the entire country is in one way or another wounded. Coverage of all continues CNN tonight with Don Lemon starts now.
