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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Terror Attack on a School in Pakistan; Threats Over 'The Interview'; John Crawford's Family Files Lawsuit
Aired December 16, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, thank you for joining us.
In Pakistan, the death toll is rising and the sense of shock and loss deepening as the civilized world struggles to understand an act of terror especially aimed at killing children.
Also tonight, from the makers of the Sony Pictures computer hack have showing threats, a 9/11 style blood bath coming soon to a theater near you. The question now, who's behind it and is it, in fact, North Korea? And if so, what's next?
Plus, with the horse still fresh from Sydney, Australia, where profile the heroes who came forward who saved lives and tried their best to save the day.
We begin tonight with the terror attack in Pakistan. The death toll rising tonight in attack so heinous, it is strong that condemnation of both the Taliban and Afghanistan in Pakistan arch rival India. In the next few hours, all across India schools will be observing two minutes of silence.
Solidarity with Pakistan after the assault that is now taken at least 140 lives, most young lives. School kids ages 12 and up. It happened in Pa shower (ph). The Pakistani Taliban was behind it and this is how the horror unfolded.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): First responders desperate to save young lives rushed children to the emergency room. The latest casualties in Pakistan's war with the Taliban. The siege on the army public school into Greek college begins around 10:00 a.m., Pakistan time. Taliban militants set off a car bomb near the school to distract security forces and then scaled the school walls. Roughly 1,000 students, many of them children of army personnel are now inside.
The men entered the room one by one, this lab assistance says and started indiscriminately fired at staff members and students. Within 15 minutes, Pakistani security forces arrive on the scene, surround the school and take positions on rooftops.
Inside, a massacre is under way. A total of seven militants execute students and staff while wearing suicide vests. According to Pakistani military, they have enough ammunition for a long siege.
They yell, God is great as they roar through the hallways.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They entered the main auditorium where there was a huge gathering. I think the students were going to an exam and immediately started shooting indiscriminate. And that's where maximum damage was caused.
COOPER: Pakistani military move in, but the task of securing the sprawling campus takes hours. By 4:00 p.m., six hours into the attack, the gunmen are confined to four buildings.
Word quickly spreads the crisis at the school as ambulance speed by, parents anxiously wait outside desperate for word on their children. By 7:00 p.m., nine hours into the siege, the Pakistani military announced all seven militants are dead.
Nearby, many students and staff fight for their lives in a chaotic hospital emergency room. This man, who appears to be a father, lashes out against the Pakistani government. This boy, one of the lucky ones who made it out alive, weeps as he's comforted by adults. By day's end, the death toll climbs above 140, most of them no older than 16.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: This is one of the worst attacks ever in the country that's seen far too many of them. Pakistanis have suffered greatly from terrorism and from the Taliban. That said, Pakistani governments and the military this country helps pay for have rarely confronted the problem consistently. There have been attacks launched on the Taliban but also deals made with them over the years.
Some perspective now on that and more from Tim Craig bureau chief from the "Washington Post."
Tim, let's talk about this group of Taliban, the TTP. What do you know about them?
TIM CRAIG, BUREAU CHIEF, WASHINGTON POST: Well, they were formed in the aftermath of September 11th. It's confusing, I think, for a lot of Americans and westerners because you have the Afghan Taliban and then you have the Pakistani Taliban.
The Pakistan Taliban really a creation of, you know, domestic Islamic militants that formed when the previous Pakistan government (INAUDIBLE), began about aligning with the U.S. It is called combat Al-Qaeda and the Afghan Taliban after the September 11th terrorist attacks.
It's a group of, you know, home grown Islamic militants. They want to implement Sharia law, an Islamic law in Pakistan. They don't have much support in country. I mean, they do have sympathizers and they do have, you know, various supporters. But those Pakistanis do not support them. They view them as sort of a fringe element that is sort of -- has no place in Pakistan. They have been responsible for a decade of attacks against Pakistan army troops and installation and government buildings. Pakistan has lost thousands of soldiers and civilians in these attacks. But few of these you would know that none of impact is actually have risen to the level of what we saw today where it is the deliberate targeting of children, many of these children are the children of Pakistan army, officers and soldiers and what can only be described as a horrific massacre.
COOPER: And that's why this school in particular was targeted because it's the kids of Pakistani military officers.
CRAIG: Yes, Pakistan Taliban have issued a statement saying that they targeted the children of the people who they claim are responsible for killing them in ongoing military operations that have been taking place this year in northwestern Pakistan.
COOPER: I mean, obviously, there has been a lot of violent attacks in Pakistan over the years and in some ways, Pakistanis have become used to some level of violence. This attack though, it seems different, yes?
CRAIG: Yes. I mean, I was out for a while today in the streets of Islamabad and people were glued to television sets. It was the blank stare you remember from the U.S. on 9/11 when people just sort of in disbelief. There had been attacks on some children in the past. Malala, as you know, not shot far from this town (INAUDIBLE) three years ago but it was rare. You never heard of such, you know, deliberate targeting of teenagers, boys and girls, teachers, and what only can be described as a massacre.
COOPER: I mean, you describe this as sort of Pakistan's 9/11. Do you think the fact that they're targeting kids and that so many people in Pakistan are shocked by it, that this is a turning point in any way or will make a difference? Does the military -- is there more they could be doing to try to eliminate the Taliban?
CRAIG: I think, clearly today, it's viewed as a turning point. But if you spend any time in Pakistan, you know that you never quite can be sure how long this stuff can be sustained.
Public opinion here sort of shifts. There's, you know, a dozen political parties all with different views on different things. And there have been, you know, pretty brutal attacks in the past. you know, earlier this year, across the airport was attacked that stunned everyone. How could this happen? And then sort of resolve. But then, you know, and as the weeks go on, people sort of move on.
But I do feel this is different and I do feel that, you know, you're going to have a pretty big spurt of unity heading to do something. The problem is, what can they do? This is not, you know, Pakistan fighting a war against another country or fighting a war with India or another border. This is they're fighting a war in your own country.
So the military is sort of confined in some ways about what they can do to eradicate this problem. And I don't think anyone expects this battle to be over soon.
COOPER: Tim Craig, I appreciate you joining us from Islamabad. Thanks very much.
CRAIG: Thank you.
COOPER: I want to continue to focus on this attack. I want to dig deeper now. I'm bring CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour who has been monitoring developments tonight from London.
Christiane, I know you spoke to Pakistan's defense minister today. He told you that the government and the armed forces are on the same page as far as the war on terrorists are concerned.
Earlier this year, though, Pakistan's prime minister tried to broker a peace deal with the Pakistani Taliban. So, are they on the same page?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look. They are all speaking from the same page today after this horrendous attack. The defense man has just said that this attack wouldn't deter them. And he did say, look. Yes, we wanted to have peace with them, but they all, you know, broke down and they didn't pursue that with us. And we kind of expected, since our offensive in June, that there would be backlash from the Taliban. But he said, it is absolutely awful what happened at this school and that he called the security at that military-run school slack to say the least.
COOPER: You mentioned the offense of the Pakistan's army launched against the Taliban back in June and attacks in the country had actually declined since then. Do you think this attack though spurs the Pakistan military to fight even harder against the Taliban? Because that's the criticism for a long time at them. That they're so focused on -- the force is focused on India that they're not focusing as much on the Taliban.
AMANPOUR: You're actually right. And I pressed the defense minister about that. I said who is your main enemy? Is it India or these who you admit that it is the extremists, these Jihadists, this Taliban? And he said there is no doubt about it. While we may have complicated relations with various countries on our borders, the biggest threat to see, the biggest threat to Pakistan are these Jihadists, is the Taliban.
But as many people have said, if this kind of massive attack on the military's own children doesn't spur a full-scale forward march and change of tune, really, then practically nothing will, Anderson.
COOPER: And I mean, they have targeted children in the past. Malala Yousafzai, who I think you have spoke to just couple of days ago, if not last week. She obviously survived assassination back in 2012. She came out, obviously, condemning this attack today. It will be interesting to see if in Pakistan, this isn't actually a turning point.
AMANPOUR: That is going to be very interesting to watch because there has been a degree of brainwashing by the Taliban. And yet, they don't yet actually have majority support. Politically, it said that the Taliban are defeated. Certainly in Afghanistan and to an extent, in Pakistan, but militarily, they remain a threat. And they have increased their threat quotient in the last many months particularly as the U.S. starts to pull back.
Whether this has an effect on the hearts and minds in Pakistan and concentrates the minds of people who might have thought that, you know, the Taliban were, I don't know, standing up for Pakistan. You know, sucking one to the United States if you like. Whether people can get over that and really understand that they are an existential threat to Pakistanis remains to be seen.
And such a heartbreaking comment from the defense minister. He said the smaller the coffin, the heavier it is to bear for us. And he really means that because this is an unprecedented attack.
COOPER: And I mean, why target children? Particularly if you're trying to change perception or win over followers in the country? I mean, I guess it's only because they're the children of military officers.
AMANPOUR: Well, this particular attack, the Taliban spokespeople told CNN earlier in the siege earlier this morning our time that this was revenge for the very Pakistani government and military offensive that is being taking placed since mid-June. And they said this is revenge for that.
However, I think they probably have not reckoned with or don't care about the backlash and the sheer revulsion that it has caused but clearly they realize, clearly that this was no good in terms of winning hearts and minds.
COOPER: Interesting. It's still shocking. Christiane Amanpour. Thanks, Christiane.
We will have a lot more ahead on this the attacks, also the attack in Sydney.
Quick reminder. Make sure you set your DVRs so you can watch 360 whenever you like.
Just ahead, we are going to zero in on the killers of the Sydney hostage drama including one who helped police get the best possible picture of the situation.
Also, we will take you where police are trained for the standoffs like the one in Sydney where the ammunition is live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: A sea of flowers, an ocean of tears. You're looking right now at the tribute outside of the Lindt Cafe in Sydney, Australia where gunman claiming allegiance to ISIS took captives on where two of those captives lost their lives.
Tonight, we are learning that one and perhaps both died trying to save others. More on that now from our Anna Coren.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, as reported, harrowing escape in desperate moments within emerge, exact details about the final moments of the CBC are still unknown.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do feel like we've lost our innocence.
COREN: Citizens of Sydney attempt to replace the grim scenes with bright memorials to those whose last hours were so dark.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has wasted two very precious lives and one of them was my friend.
COREN: The gunman who traumatized so many here at the Lindt chocolate cafe in Martin Place, died along with two of his hostages.
Tori Johnson, age 34, was a beloved manager at the chocolate cafe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was a really sweet, loving, caring person.
COREN: Johnson's family relays a statement Monday describing him as the most amazing life partner, son, and brother we could ever wish for.
Reports that Johnson attempted to grab the gunman's weapon had not been confirmed but come as no surprise to his friends.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he was in there, he wasn't coming out until everyone else was. He just wasn't the kind of person to put his hands up and leave.
TONY ABBOTT, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: These were decent, good people who were going about their ordinary lives.
COREN: Katrina Dawson, a 38-year-old mother of three also perished here, but was far from ordinary. The local bar association president described the accomplished legal mind as one of our best and brightest barristers who will be greatly missed by her colleagues and friends.
According to local reports, Dawson was killed trying to shield a pregnant friend from the gunman. The news unbearable to report for a local broadcaster who knew her family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A sister of one of channel Seven's --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sandra Dawson who I know and I have friends, a mother of three, John.
COREN: As flowers replaced on one of the thoroughfares, the process of healing begins, one embrace at a time.
Anna Coren, CNN, Sydney.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And in the meantime, more killers come to light. Greg Park for one, he gave emergency responders a view of the cafe that made their life-saving job that much easier. He's a camera man for Australia's Seven News. Their newsroom looks out on to the Lindt cafe. When the siege began, he placed three cameras around the scene, monitored then with a sniper who is in position in the office ready to fire.
Greg Parker takes it from there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREG PARKER, CAMERA MAN, SEVEN NEWS: I was, you know, all the while, I handled it in the patience I showed, because I was a tried and proven methods of how to get the best possible result and that was constantly being relayed to us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: But patience ran out with the echo of a single gunshot.
PARKER: And we heard a shot, he confirmed hostage down, window two. Six seconds later, we saw the special forces guards breach. It was pretty loud, pretty frightening. It is nothing I've ever seen before ever.
The moment he crossed the line of taking down a hostage, it was a forced action from police though. In my mind and probably anyone else's seeing it that I think they are going to sit around and wait for another hostage to have the same fate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Just an incredible event. That decision on when to launch array and when to pull the trigger, when to sit tight even when it seems like the hardest thing to do, has so much riding on it. And a lot of training goes into making sure it's the right decision. As our Martin Savidge found out first-hand during a training at a private security firm in North Carolina. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the moment of truth. A SWAT unit makes entry. And thanks to our cameras, you are part of the team. It's over in seconds. And if it's done right, the bad guys are down and the hostages safe.
It may look easy. It's anything but. As I find out by putting on body armor and eye protection because this is live ammunition, following the team on a special training range.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So I'm just looking for any threat that might appear?
SAVIDGE: The man pause at an entrance. One arm placed on the person in front and they're all within physical contact because this is how you're going to communicate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. SAVIDGE: They have radios, but critical movement commands are
communicated by a squeeze. Antec Saneki (ph) will be the first man in and likely the first target.
You know that going in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
SAVIDGE: You brace, you prepare, you menially think about that or you shut it out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just do what you're trained to do.
SAVIDGE: Depending on the situation, the go command may come from a police chief, a governor, a general, or even the president.
Each team member has a specific area of each room to focus upon.
Who decides who shoots? You've got four of you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Again, it's broken down to areas of responsibility. So typically, we go, you know, right, left, right, left.
SAVIDGE: Once through the door, the last team member acts as a guard. Then roles quickly switch. Last in becomes first out. In real-time, it happens faster than I can describe and is repeated until all rooms are clear.
Once you've reached the last room, what happens then?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clear.
SAVIDGE: In other words, do it again. Just to be sure.
The training has to be real as possible which is why this woman does what we might consider crazy. Volunteering to be a hostage, crouching in a room where the team will enter firing real ammunition at targets just a few feet away.
And this is the view if the hostage was you. The aim has to be perfect and it is.
I think you can see the accuracy. And how does the team feel about snipers? If a sniper has a shot, is that the preferred med?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
SAVIDGE: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if you can eliminate any threat before we even go in there, then that's better.
SAVIDGE: At the end of yet another run through, I ask, what is the biggest fear then?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is getting to that hostage quickly and the biggest fear is that you don't get there in time.
SAVIDGE: So the team will spend hours practicing just to shave off a few seconds because in their line of work, time isn't money. It's quite possibly the difference between life and death.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Martin Savidge joins us now from North Carolina.
It's incredible when you think about the response by law enforcement in Sydney, Australia. They had six seconds. They basically went in six seconds after the shot was heard, and that was after, you know, more than 12 hours, going to 14 hours. They were standing around, basically, on a hair and trigger ready to go in, all that time, they had to be ready to respond in a matter of seconds. The guys you are with, they are using live ammunition during the training. Why is that so important?
SAVIDGE: Yes. Well, just because of what you described, they may have hours, they may have eve days to prepare or they may woke up and they only have minutes. And the reality is, Anderson, I mean, they're not shooting for the movies. They're shooting for keeps.
So reality dictates. They've got to use real ammunition. They've got to shoot on targets. They have to know everything as best they can as to what it will be like when everything is on the line.
COOPER: And also, I mean, you're in the facility right now that they use. They, obviously, when they go into a facility like that, they have no idea, maybe how many potential targets there are.
SAVIDGE: Right. I mean, a lot of what you don't see is prior to force being used by that is the gathering Intel. If they got a lot of time, they can begin to understand how many hostages, how many gun men are there, where they located and where are good guys and where are bad guys?
So, you know, that's all important to know. This particular facility, it is on a thousand acres of land. It is called the range complex in North Carolina. It has two shoot houses, which is one of them I am in, a thousand feet. They're set up like a house or like an office, like building. And they have observation posts for training purposes. Even the walls specially designed are concrete, but they are shock absorbing concrete. Usually bullets ricochet off a cement, get that eaten by the cement which is good because that way, they can use these rooms over and over again. The more they practice, the better they'll be, God forbid, if they have to be used.
COOPER: It is remarkable skill and bravery. Martin Savidge, thank you very much.
Coming up, a new threat from a group that says it is behind the Sony hacking, now targeting people, they say, who go see a movie that set to open on Christmas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Welcome back to a new developments tonight to tell you about on the Sony hacking stories. You know, that hackers are threatening 9/11 style attack on theaters if the studio releases the upcoming movie, "the Interview" plummeted by the plot to kill Kim Jong-Un.
And now, "the New York Times" and "the Wall Street Journal" reporting that Sony executives are in the words at the Times. And in their reporting, all that inviting theaters not to run the movie if they don't want to.
CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown joins me now with the latest.
So, first of all, what is the latest on the threat? How authentic do law enforcement actually believe it is?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, this threat is reportedly coming from the Sony hackers who call themselves guardians of peace. And it appears to be an attempt of ratcheting up fear leading up to the release to that controversial comedy about North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un, which is set to release next week on Christmas.
So right now, you know, the FBI, the department of homeland security, are looking into it, similar to the way they would investigate a bomb threat. But in this case, they first off trying to see if this threat is actually coming from the original Sony hackers. We're told at this point, Anderson, there is no credible intelligence to indicate active plot against movie theaters in the U.S.
But as you see, there is already been flood to reaction from this. In fact, we know that the stars of the film, Seth Rogen and James Franco, have canceled all their press appearances today and for tomorrow after this threat was released.
COOPER: It is known yet who is behind the hack?
BROWN: Well, that is the big question. The bottom line here, Anderson, U.S. authorities have a strong suspicion of who instigated the attack. But I am told by sources not enough evidence at this point in the investigation that actually point a finger at the culprit. For right now, sources say though that all clues are pointing to North Korea. Investigators are looking into the possibility as well that the reclusive country outsourced the job to hackers in a different country in retaliation for that movie, but remember, side room investigations are nuanced, they are complex. These hackers were very sophisticated and had access to Sony's computer system for months before the FBI was called in. So, that's a lot of time for them to do damage and cover their tracks, Anderson.
COOPER: It's amazing they had access to computer system for months and nobody was able to pick up on it for all that time.
BROWN: Right. That's really the hard part about these cyber investigations. A lot of the time, it just comes down to detection for the company to catch on quickly to the hacker and in this case, we learned that the hackers penetrated the system as early as the summer, Anderson, and then the FBI was called in in November. It's unclear, though, when the company actually caught wind that their system was hacked into.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's extraordinary. Pamela Brown, thank you very much for the reporting. There's a lot more happening tonight. Susan Hendricks has a "360" news and business bulletin. Susan.
SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, Jeb Bush announced on Facebook and Twitter he will actively explore the possibility of running for president in 2016 and he's setting up a political action committee as well. Now, this is the first official sign that the former Republican governor of Florida could try to follow his father and brother to the White House.
Well, Los Angeles prosecutors say Bill Cosby will not be charged with a crime after a woman claimed he molested her at "The Playboy" mansion in 1974. This statute of limitations has expired. The alleged victim was 15 years old at the time.
Well, you may have noticed if you are filling up gasoline prices can now be found for less than $2 a gallon in at least 17 states. This comes as oil prices plunge below $55 a barrel, the cheapest that it's been in five years. And a Massachusetts doctor cured of Ebola in the U.S. is going back to Liberia next month. Dr. Richard Saker plans to work right back at the clinic where he contracted the virus. Now, he tells us he feels he's been called to do the work and give his fellow doctors a bit of a break by helping out, Anderson. He's going back, the plan is, in January for 3.5 weeks to help out even more.
COOPER: It's incredible dedication. Susan, thank you very much.
Just ahead, a newly released video showing police interrogating the girlfriend of a man that shot dead at a Walmart. And his family is suing, and the lawyer says the way the police grilled or interrogated the girlfriend is evidence they knew they'd messed up. Details on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Family of an Ohio man who was shot dead by police at a Walmart, filed a federal lawsuit today against the police and the store. 22-year-old John Crawford III was killed in August while talking on his phone and carrying a pellet rifle he picked up from a shelf. This happened just four days before Michael Brown was shot dead in Ferguson, Missouri. And in this case, the grand jury cleared the police officer of any wrongdoing. Tonight, though, this video police interrogating Mr. Crawford's girlfriend just after the shooting has been raising more questions and controversies. Here's Ana Cabrera.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RODNEY CURD, POLICE DETECTIVE: Where did he get this gun?
TASHA THOMAS: Sir, I don't know. I swear to god. Sir, I swear to god. I don't know. On everything I love, you can give me a lie detector test and everything.
ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just released video from inside the interrogation room. Beaver Creek police detective Rodney Curd grills Tasha Thomas, the girlfriend of John Crawford III. It's just minutes after police opened fire killing Crawford inside an Ohio Walmart.
CURD: Why would he have a gun in the store?
CABRERA: I don't know.
CURD: Is (INAUDIBLE)
CABRERA: Not that I've never known.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the incident all caught on camera, surveillance video on August 5th shows Crawford wandering the aisles, talking on the phone and carrying what looks like a rifle. A concerned customer called 9-1-1 and police responded.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Holding a gun. Pointing it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm in the Walmart. Did you say he's pointing it at people?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Affirmative, no.
CABRERA: Police say Crawford failed to obey commands from police, but Crawford's family argues Crawford never had a chance. They say the video shows he had his back to police and was on the phone when they approached and that the officers opened fire just one second after they confronted Crawford.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of these is a real gun and one of these is the gun Mr. Crawford was carrying that day. As you can see, it's very hard to tell the difference.
CABRERA: It turns out, Crawford was holding a pellet gun he had picked up from a store shelf, not a rifle. In September, a grand jury chose not to indict the officers on any charges. The family is now filing a federal lawsuit against police and Walmart. Saying the pellet gun should have been locked up and police should have done due diligence before opening fire. The city responded with this statement. "We believe the evidence will prove that the officer's actions were legally justified." Walmart expressed condolences and said, quote, our associates acted properly."
JOHN CRAWFORD JR., FATHER OF MAN KILLED BY POLICE: I'm still pursuing justice because to me, that is justice. You have to be held accountable. You don't get a pass because you have a side arm and a shield.
CABRERA: Crawford's family says he wasn't a criminal, he was a customer and now an innocent victim. They believe police tried to cover up their mistake afterwards by trying to coerce Tasha Thomas into saying something that might justify the shooting.
CURD: We're investigating a serious incident. You lie to me and you might be on your way to jail. So I want to be very clear.
THOMAS: I swear to god.
CURD: You were with him just moments before this happened. You need to tell me the truth.
THOMAS: I am. I swear to god. I swear to god I am. I swear to god.
CURD: Are you on influence on anything?
THOMAS: No.
CURD: You've been drinking?
THOMAS: No.
CURD: Drugs?
THOMAS: No, no.
CURD: Your eyes are kind of messed up looking and you seem a little lethargic and tired. And I don't know it's because you're upset or not.
CABRERA: For 90 minutes this goes on before Thomas finally learns her boyfriend is dead.
CURD: Well, to let you know, unfortunately, John has passed away as a result of this. I don't know any other way to tell you. I mean what happened there wasn't a good thing and as a result of his actions, he is gone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And Ana Cabrera joins us now. So, the lawyer is saying that the interrogation was inappropriate. Did the detective have an explanation for how he went about conducting the interrogation?
CABRERA: Well, first of all, police say there was no coercion. The detective says he was questioning Thomas based on the information he was given from police on the scene of the shooting and he said they initially did think that Crawford was carrying a real rifle and that he had brought it into the store, and so he says, and in this questioning of Thomas, that he really was just searching for answers, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Ana Cabrera, thanks very much. Joining me now, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin, also Harry Houck, a retired New York Police Department detective.
Sunny, let me start with you about the interrogation. Police are allowed to interrogate somebody as long as they've read their Miranda rights and informed them what's going on, they're allowed to lie, they are allowed to do anything in an interrogation. So, do you see anything actually inappropriate? Maybe it was a tough interrogation, but was anything inappropriate?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I mean it certainly was insensitive, but I don't see anything per se inappropriate. You are right. You can lie to someone during an interrogation. I've seen many of them and they're never pretty.
COOPER: And you can push somebody, you can be hostile. You can do whatever ...
HOSTIN: Well, you're not supposed to push people, but certainly you can be hostile. You can be ...
COOPER: Not physically push ...
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: I mean, you know.
HOSTIN: Yeah, you can be duplicitous, you can - you can lie. I'm not troubled by the interrogation. What I am troubled by is the actual shooting and I'm troubled by the shooting because Ohio is an open carry law. So to walk around a Walmart with a real gun, with a real rifle, is not against the law. So I'm surprised that the officers would run in and under one second, assess that threat, find him to be threatening and shoot to kill. That is what's troubling to me.
COOPER: Harry, what about that? I mean do you think, what are your thoughts?
HARRY HOUCK: If you look at the video itself, it shows you officers approach. And he did drop the gun. Then the police officer comes into the video. You can see him now. And the gentleman comes back towards the weapon and that's when the officer shoots him. Now, the officer is now perceiving a threat. I mean, we can't hear any audio. We don't know see if the officer is yelling and screaming at him, but see, the weapon is down, all right, the officer comes to the scene, he comes back, now the officer thinks that this guy is going for the gun. I've got to get the first shot off. And that's what happens.
COOPER: It's is Sunny, when you look at the two, you know, one, the rifle from the store and one is the actual rifle. When you look, it is hard to tell the difference.
HOSTIN: It is hard to distinguish it, no question about it. But the bottom line is it wasn't against the law in Ohio and in particular, in Walmart which has a policy of allowing people to open carry within their stores to carry a real gun. So it's a sort of a distinction was that a difference. It didn't matter if was a rifle or not.
COOPER: Is the store - is the store liable at all because it wasn't in a package? He was able to - you know, it was on a shelf, he was able to just pick it up?
HOSTIN: Well, certainly it's against the policy for that just to be sort of sitting around. It was supposed to be, my understanding, it was supposed to be kept away, locked away. And then when you purchase it, you're supposed to be escorted out of the store with it or at least to the gun. So yes, Walmart has a place in this. But I think that we need to really look at the officer's actions. I think we need to look at the officer's training. I do not understand how, based on a 911 call on a dispatch that you discharge your weapon and shoot to kill in an open carry state in under one second. It is to me, just a clear, clear violation of policy.
COOPER: Harry, the fact that it's an open carry state, should that make a difference?
HOUCK: Well, I mean that's fine. Except they got a call, that this guy was pointing his weapon at people. I don't know how many - you know, I'd love to listen to the 9/11 tapes here and what was information was given to the officer at the time. They went in thinking that they had somebody was pointing a weapon at somebody based on the one call that we're hearing about and they went in and took a look at that and why did that man come back towards that weapon? I'm sure the police officers were yelling at him.
COOPER: To you, that's the critical moment.
HOUCK: That's the critical moment right there. I would have shot him exactly the same.
COOPER: You would have done the same thing.
HOUCK: I would have shot him, really.
COOPER: Really?
HOUCK: Because if I didn't and he was going towards that weapon, the first shot gets off and he gets me.
COOPER: Sunny, the fact that he was - he seemed to be going back for the weapon, in that direction, does that influence you?
HOSTIN: It does not especially because of the time frame. And we are talking about one second.
HOUCK: Because you're not witnessing the threat.
HOSTIN: One second.
HOUCK: It's very easy to say.
HOSTIN: I don't think that you can determine that it's a threat in under one second.
HOUCK: When you're not facing the threat itself. When you're facing that threat, a millisecond, you might be dead or you're alive. And that's the kind of decisions police officers have to make on the street or they don't go home at night.
COOPER: We'll see what happens. Obviously, this lawsuit is going on. Sunny Hostin, thank you very much. Harry Houck as well. Dramatic discovery in the search for the former Marine wanted for killing six people. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: In Pennsylvania, the search for suspected killer has ended. Bradley Stone's body was found in a wooded area today. Authorities say he apparently died of self-inflicted wounds. The former Marine was wanted in the shootings of ex-wife and five of her relatives yesterday morning. The murders have shaken several small communities northwest of Philadelphia. Our Jason Carroll tonight has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The end of a manhunt for an alleged mass murderer came early Tuesday afternoon in a wooded area in eastern Pennsylvania. This after Bradley Stone apparently took his own life.
RISA VETRI FERMAN, MONTGOMERY CO DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We have not received official confirmation from the coroner as to the cause and manner of death but based upon what we found at the scene we believed that he died of self-inflicted cutting wounds.
CARROLL: Police say early Monday, Stone shot and killed his ex-wife Nicole Hill and five former in-laws as well as wounding another former in-law. Stone did not hurt his two daughters who were living with Hill.
MICHELLE BREWSTER, NEIGHBOR OF NICOLE HILL: All of the sudden, I heard pop and I knew it was that - I was pretty sure that that was a gunshot.
CARROLL: One of Hill's neighborhoods who did not want us to show her face heard gunfire Monday and says she knew instantly Hill was in trouble.
BREWSTER: He was threatening her all the time. He told her all the time he was going to kill her and the family. He actually told her that.
CARROLL (on camera): That's what she said to you?
BREWSTER: Yes, she said that to me, she said is to everybody.
CARROLL: Investigators now developing a profile of Stone, one which could help uncover a motive for the horrific crime. He's a former Marine reservist who spent about three months in Iraq. He was awarded several medals including the Iraq campaign service medal. Stone's friend says he had a love of country and cannot understand how he would be capable of murder.
MATTHEW SCHALTE, BRADLEY STONE'S FRIEND: The guy was just outgoing. I mean he just - he was full of joy. I don't understand why he would do something like this, let alone how many lives have been taken.
CARROLL: Aside from traffic violations Stone's criminal record was clean. Record show last week, he filed a motion seeking custody of his two daughters. Hill's neighbors said after the divorce, the couple fought frequently.
BREWSTER: My personal opinion is that it wasn't so much about his children as his loss of control over Nicole.
CARROLL: Among Stone's likes on what is believed to be his Facebook page, the Marines, the National Center for PTSD and PTSD veterans self-help links and this quote, "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery, but I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes. If you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) with me, I'll kill you all. Hill's neighbor and friend relieve the manhunt is finally over. She only wishes someone had heeded Hill's warnings.
BREWSTER: She actually said he's going to put a bullet in my head and nobody believes me, nobody listened to me, and then when it happens, everybody's going to be like, what happened? Oh my gosh. Shocked and she says, nobody listens to me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And Jason Carroll joins me now. Any word on how his daughters are doing?
CARROLL: Well, Anderson, I guess that's one of the real tragic parts of this story. Two children, young girls five and eight years old, no immediate family, no extended family at this point to speak of because of what happened here. That was raised here earlier in a press conference. What is going to happen to these two little girls? Right now, they're in protective custody and ultimately, Anderson, it will probably be the courts that end up deciding what happens to them.
COOPER: And I mean given, you know, his web - the stuff he was interested in on Facebook, is there any indication, I mean, did he have PTSD?
CARROLL: It's debatable. And the reason why I say that is because, you know, it was clear that he was being treated for some sort of stress disorder. That is clear. But when you speak to those who knew him like this one woman that we spoke to, the neighbor who was friends with Nicole, she did not believe that was the case. She said, according to her, he never saw active duty when he was overseas for some - up to some four months, I believe, when he was serving over in Iraq and that's first. And second, it is her belief that what happened has more to do with control. Control over Nicole, control over the two little girls.
COOPER: It's horrific for them and all the families involved. Jason Carroll, I appreciate that. We have a lot more ahead. The Ridiculist is coming up. So to make you smile on the end of a very difficult day. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Time now for "The Ridiculist." With the tale of two political operatives: one Democrat and one Republican who are brothers, Brad and Dallas Woodhouse were on C-SPAN today and the mood was fairly jocular, at least in the beginning.
BRAD WOODHOUSE: You know, I just had no idea that he was going to be a right wing Republican -wing nut.
DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Well, I don't know about that, and I think my brother always grew up a little more left and then he, you know, he comes up here, and, you know, once you come up to Washington, your brain gets poisoned as we see constantly by people who come up here and totally ...
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: So, the brothers are promoting a documentary, called "Woodhouse Divided," a funny and poignant look at both family and political dynamics. But since their brothers and since they agree on virtually nothing politically, their C-SPAN appearance quickly devolved into this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRAD WOODHOUSE: The Republicans ran on nothing. Ran just on anti- Obama.
DALLAS WOODHOUSE: What did your Democrats run on?
BRAD WOODHOUSE: Very, very interesting to see. I'm talking about ...
DALLAS WOODHOUSE: What your candidates run on?
BRAD WOODHOUSE: The Tea Party was a creation of the insurance companies.
DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Oh my god!
BRAD WOODHOUSE: It was funded by the - It's funded by ...
DALLAS WOODHOUSE: (MAKING FUNNY SOUNDS)
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And then, as often is the case on C-SPAN, they started taking calls live on the air.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) in Raleigh, North Carolina.
DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Hey, somebody from down South.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're right, I'm from down South.
DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Oh, god, it's mom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I'm your mother. And I disagree that all families are like ours. I don't know many families that are fighting at Thanksgiving.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this really your mother?
DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Here's my mom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was very glad that this Thanksgiving was a year that you two were supposed to go to your in-laws and I'm hoping you'll have some of this out of your system when you come here for Christmas.
DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Yeah, we were not together this Thanksgiving. We are most years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would really like a peaceful Christmas and I love you both.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: No question who won that debate. One, Ms. Joy Woodhouse. From now on, whenever pundits argue on television, I want their moms to call in and tell them to get it out of their systems so they can have a peaceful Christmas. It had to be disarming. You're on television doing your job, and suddenly your mom calls. It's got to be difficult to come back when there's something like that. Oh, really? Someone's on the phone. Hello? I know as well as anyone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?
COOPER: Mom?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Anderson, darling. It's your mother. Listen, I was watching your show and I just had to call in and say how proud I am of you.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I'd never embarrass you on the air, but I just wanted to let you know how much I'm enjoying this segment. I hope I'm not getting you at a bad time.
COOPER: No. No, this is a great time mom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are not busy right now, are you?
COOPER: This is a great time, mom. It's a perfect time to call. What are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What, sweetheart?
COOPER: What are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I'm watching you. I'm watching you on the air as I do every night. I'm glued.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: You're glued.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm glued from 8:00 to 9:00.
COOPER: All right, mom. Well, thank you very much for calling in. I appreciate it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, sweetheart, love you a lot.
COOPER: I love you too. Bye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye.
COOPER: Ah. Now I know as well as anyone you should always listen to your mother in life and on the Ridiculist. A reminder to vote for your favorite Ridiculist in 2014, our blog at AC360.com, we'll countdown your top five on the air at the end of the year. That does it for us. We'll see you again at 11 p.m. Eastern for another edition of 360. The CNN "Special Report: Extraordinary people starts now."
