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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Two of the Suspects in the Shootings at "Charlie Hebdo" Office in Paris Are Now Dead; The Woman With the Suspect in the Kosher Store is at Large
Aired January 09, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. It is 8:00 p.m. in New York on the east coast. 2:00 a.m. here in Paris.
And what began as a mass shooting, a terror incident then morphed into a manhunt, reached a bloody climax earlier in a pair of hostage takings and is now a manhunt once again. Bottom line, the terror that has gripped this city and all of France for three days now is not over yet.
Two brothers wanted in the killings of 12 people, to hear the offices of Charlie Hebdo, just a couple of blocks from where I'm standing, are dead, killed after taking hostages at a print shop north of the city. The dark skin man on the right, Amedy Coulibaly, wanted in the cop killing Thursday morning is dead. His female housemate remains, however, at large.
All four, are believed to have been members of the same terror cell. A police spokesman says they believed she slipped away after police stormed the Kosher supermarket where four hostages were killed. Although, there are conflicting reports on that. And frankly, it's hard to imagine how it's possible that she actually slipped away giving the huge numbers of police around there.
The police union official who said that she may have slipped away, but frankly, they don't know for sure whether or not she was even inside. There's a lot of conflicting information. Let's take a look at the day as it unfolded.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
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COOPER: I just want to pause the video just here for a moment here. Because this is when police were first entering the supermarket, you can see the length of time it took to raise that gate. You can also there early on see the body of what is most likely one of the hostages already lying lifeless on the ground.
Now, this frozen image, that is the gunman, the terrorist, the third suspect actually running out of the door.
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COOPER: Now, it's possible, possible that somewhere in that crowd was this woman, the fourth accomplice, Hayat Boumeddiene who may have escaped in the chaos. Although, again, that is one report by a police union official said she may have escaped. It's not clear whether or not she actually was in there. She is certainly now considered on the loose. There is a massive manhunt for her under way.
Not much was immediately known about her. Police are in fact asking anyone with information to please come forward. As for her male companion, before he was killed, he spoke by phone with CNN affiliate, PFMTV.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
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COOPER: Well, as you might imagine, the more we learn, the uglier this picture gets and the greater the concern. Just a short time ago, the state department warned U.S. citizens traveling overseas to maintain, in their words, a high level of vigilance and to take steps to increase their security awareness.
As I said, this manhunt is going on. I want to go to the latest on the manhunt. Jim Sciutto is joining us now.
Jim, what are you hearing about exactly who this woman is and what kind of threat she may pose?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, police are treating her very seriously as possibly dangerous. It's not clear though what her operational role was in all of this. As you say, the police union saying that they believe she was present in that kosher market, but the interior ministry and others are not confirming that.
Police have also said it is believed that she was present when Amedy Coulibaly killed the police officer yesterday in the street of Paris, but that is not been confirmed either. But I will tell you one thing that is clear. She was not just a peripheral figure. And that we -- reason police know this, we heard from the prosecutor earlier this evening, that last year alone, there were some 500 phone calls between her and the wife of Cherif Kouachi. Of course, one of the brothers who carried out the attack at Charlie Hebdo, 500 phone calls. You know, there's been a lot of questions over the last 72 hours as to
whether these two groups of attackers, the hostage taker here, the two brothers who carried out the attack on Charlie Hebdo and were killed in the northeast of Paris, were they connected?
Well, clearly, there a connection established that extended back months, a full year, those 500 phone calls. What were they talking about? It is possible that the attackers suspected that they were under surveillance by the police so they would have their companions communicate with each other.
But clearly based on those communications, she was not just a companion of this attacker. She was somehow involved in the planning, in the communication before these attacks were carried out.
COOPER: And Jim, as we show that video of the raid again, you were near the grocery store where the raid occurred. You heard the initial flash bangs, shots as well. The idea that -- first of all, we don't know for sure whether or not -- there's no evidence at least publicly known that I've seen that she, the suspect, was actually -- the female suspect was actually inside that grocery store other than the statement from a local police union official. We see the gate opening up. You can actually see the body of one hostage laying lifeless on the ground. And we're going to talk more in detail about this operations with some security experts in a moment, but the idea that she could have possibly escaped frankly seems hard to believe.
SCIUTTO: It would be pretty remarkable. The only opportunity would have been the slip out when those other hostages slipped out. That's difficult to see, to confirm in that video, but also somewhat difficult to see as that's possible there.
Another thing, just to be clear that we learned from the video and this is something that was said on national TV by the French president later after the attack, that those four that were killed inside the kosher shop, that that took place early in the operation. It did not take place during the police raid but it took earlier during the hostage taking. That's what French authorities believe. But of course, we do see in that tape the killer himself being killed by police, charging them much as the two brothers charged police in northeast Paris. You know, we heard earlier in the day they said they wanted to die as martyrs, as they say. They certainly got their wish to die in these attacks, these police raids.
COOPER: And in that video, you just saw him actually rushing towards the police, we're not actually showing the actual killing and then they are bringing out his lifeless body. They're there actually working on one of the tactical officers who was wounded in the attack too. Police were wounded in this raid.
Jim, I appreciate the update.
Joining us now is chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour. Also here in Paris with me, former French Navy special officer member Fabrice Magnier. And also terrorism expert, Samuel Laurent. I appreciate both of you being with us.
Fabrice, let's start with you. As you see this video of the raid and you have been following closely both raids, I wonder how you feel they went. Because it looks extremely difficult with that gate moving up slowly. That is the worst possible situation in an assault like this.
FABRICE MAGNIER, FORMER FRENCH NAVY SPECIAL OFFICER: Of course. Because we try to be very quick because supplies is 80 percent of the attack, OK? So of course, at times they need to relieve that gate, give some advantage to the terrorist. But then, they were quite successful.
I would like to comeback about the lady, you know. I don't think she was able to escaped from that --
COOPER: You say it wouldn't be -- I mean, that place was surrounded. And as we see, even in the confusion, anybody who was brought out was immediately hustled into the vehicle.
MAGNIER: Of course. And there is a possibility also when you launch an assault like this, you have to sort of think about the hostages. First, evacuate the hostages. Then be sure (INAUDIBLE) there's no slipping terrorists among those. So each hostage is checked to be sure it's clear before to declare and eventually give some medics clear. OK? And the perimeter is surrounded. So nobody can escape.
COOPER: The other question which obviously law enforcement is looking to and intelligence is looking into carefully is, are there other people in what appears to be some form of a cell? Are there are other people directly linked to this cell who may be still operational beside this female suspect?
SAMUEL LAURENT, AUTHOR, AL QAIDA EN FRANCE: Well, actually, it's very difficult to say now whether there are more people or not. What we say, it's an old cell. So basically those people in 2008 were number of about like 10, 15, 20 people and that who have channeled to Iraq and that were originating from threats and so on and so --.
COOPER: So it's known that this grouping, this grouping of people who knew each other and going back a long ways, there were more people in this operational cell back then. Whether or not they are still operational, we don't know.
LAURENT: Yes, indeed. And actually, we knew that at the time there were like 10 or 15. But we also know they have expanded because of the Syrian war, because of the inflow of jihadi, French jihadi, going to Syria, joining Al-Qaeda at the time, joining ISIS later on and then moving back. And I think the most disturbing pattern that we see is that on these two operation that seems to be coordinated. One of them has claimed to be from Al-Qaeda and the other one is slain (ph) to these from ISIS. So basically, we are facing multiple threats and some of them originating from the cells. Sorry.
COOPER: It's OK. MAGNIER: Benefit.
LAURENT: -- called the expertise, exactly.
COOPER: Benefiting from any kind of relations. There are real questions whether that was boasting on the part of these two suspects, whether or not some of these groups are just claiming credit. We are going to talk about that a little bit later coming up.
But Christiane, I mean, we have learned so much just in the last 24 hours about this cell, about their potential foreign contacts and the fact that four suspects is still at large given the massive manhunt is obviously a huge concern here.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, exactly. You know, the foreign minister told me yesterday when I was in Paris that actually some 30 percent of those they suspect have gone to Syria or Iraq or wherever are actually women. So that is very important when we see this woman who is wanted and on the lam there in Paris right now.
And indeed, we have had very, very serious warnings now from the British domestic intelligence MI-5. Now, this ahead of a lot of top level leaders here in bureau heading into Paris on Sunday for a mini summit, also, attorney general Eric Holder going.
They are very, very concerned here that there will be an attack of mass casualty. That's the words of the British MI-5 chief. And he has given his starkest warning yet. I mean, he very rarely speaks, it is the first time in two years that he is actually spoken. And they say they have known of 14 plots over the last -- sorry, so plots over the last 14 months. And they're very concerned about airlines, about transportation, about iconic landmarks and others being targeted sometime now or in the future.
COOPER: How concerned are you from a security standpoint that other potential jihadists who may already be here and as we know, France has a huge number of suspects, are going to see what has taken place over last two or three days and think, this was a success, from the terrorist's standpoint and it's something that could be relatively easily repeated?
MAGNIER: I think we have maybe 1,000 jihadis in France.
COOPER: People who have experienced fighting overseas, perhaps or at least aspirations of going overseas.
LAURENT: Well, actually, we probably have much more than that. The official figure was about 500 but actually some experts have say about 2,000. And these are not potential. These are actual from Syria.
MAGNIER: It goes on exponential scale, you know? And for sure we are like that in France, waiting for the right time to act, you know. Because of the choice of the moment and the place.
COOPER: And also, though much has been made early on of how they knew how to handle AK-47s, they clearly made a number of mistakes. They clearly didn't have a plan thought out. They ended up being on the run. But it still doesn't take a huge amount of skill to carry out an attack that can have a massive, not only death toll, but also political impact, social impact.
MAGNIER: Yes. You know, those guys are determined. They know how to use weapons. They don't need to prepare the attack very well. The target and the rush, you know. Obviously, they ended up prepare with plan b, plan c to escape. A place to hide. Waiting. Police forces to be tired and then exit, change clothes, change car, you know. They were just going like this and try to escape. And that maybe there were surprise to others such huge.
COOPER: And certainly, that's how they ended up at that print station.
Christiane, on Sunday, a massive show of solidarity here is expected even though this manhunt continues, that seems to be going ahead.
AMANPOUR: Indeed. And it has been called for and they expect a lot of people to come out. You know, in this speech just this evening and even in his first speech to the nation on Wednesday evening, French president Francois Hollande said that unity is the only thing that is going to keep the nation safe and allow us to fight back, unity and solidarity. He's had various political leaders, opposition leaders to elite (ph). They said there's this mini summit of European heads of state, heads of government. Also, American top officials to come and talk about how to fight this.
But it is, after the initial crisis has passed and once they get through this initial crisis, it is a long-term, not only soul searching, but ramping up of intelligence, of security to try to put even more sort of effort in place. Although, you've just been discussing with your colleagues there, it's very difficult to catch every single one of them as all these officials say.
COOPER: Yes. And just very briefly, I mean, to follow one suspect requires dozens of people.
LAURENT: Actually, it does. But this is the argument that is running now. We need 30 people to follow one suspect.
COOPER: Thirty people to follow one suspect.
(CROSSTALK)
LAURENT: Actually, the problem is that, OK, this is a very good argument, very fair. But those cells were the most known. Those people were very known for years in France and therefore, even if it's very difficult to follow older jihadi that are popping up nowadays with ISIS, those people were basically the primary target of the intelligence and this is where I would say there was a huge failure in terms of French intelligence.
Look at the U.S., U.S. had a no-fly ban for those people. But actually, they were able to fly one of them from France to Yemen to get training in Al Qaeda camps in 2011. So quite disturbing.
COOPER: And -- there's a lot to cover in the next two hours. I appreciate you both being with us, and Christiane Amanpour as well. We've got to take a break.
As always, quick reminder. Make sure you set your DVR so you can watch "360" whenever you want.
Coming up next, more on the possible connection to Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula. How real are they? That group's global call to arms ahead. We will be right back.
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COOPER: Well, the search is on as we speak, as we mentioned at the top of the broadcast, for a woman who might be a member of a terrorist cell that collectively now has the blood of at least 16 people on its hands. She is wanted in connection with the killing of a policewoman on Thursday and the hostage taking at the Kosher supermarket today that left four people dead along with her alleged partner in terror.
A police union spokesman, as we mentioned, said today, they believe that she was in that supermarket during the assault and may have somehow slipped away.
Real questions, though, have been raised about that. How would it be possible for anybody to have actually left that supermarket unless it was so early on in the taking of the supermarket?
Separately today, the two fugitive brothers ended their own reign of terror in a hell of gunfire in a print shop outside of the city. That's where Fred Pleitgen joins us now.
Now, Fred, you were -- we were live on the air. You were outside when the assault took place. What's the latest you're hearing about how it all unfolded at the print shop? Because the two brothers were thought to be at some point deep or at least partially in the forest last night. That may have been some sort of diversion on the part of French law enforcement in case they felt these brothers were monitoring media coverage, but how -- can you give us the tic-tac of how this unfolded, how they ended up for the print store?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's interesting, you know. Because when we heard all of this unfolded, it seemed as though the operation was very clean and very quick. And certainly, there were many standards, it was. However, not as clean and quick as we thought at the time.
When we were out here, at some point, we heard a couple of gunshots and then we heard a sort of muted detonation, it seemed to us as though someone was setting off a stun grenade inside the room. We do, of course, know that they were inside a print shop and maybe that was the police firing the first of several stun grenades in to that print shop where these two terrorists were hold up.
What we see now ever it now, is that apparently it was a little more violent than we initially thought. It seems as though the two gun men went outside, opened fire on police. There was a video that the national police released just a couple of hours ago that seemed to show there was actually some automatic fire that these two men gave off initially as this siege began.
That's when the police responded. They fired those stun grenades into the print shop, followed by what seem to us to be single fire shots. It's a very targeted shot that eliminate these two terrorists very, very quickly.
From our vantage point here, it appeared to us as though the actual raid took less than a minute. But what happened right after that is that helicopters landed there almost immediately. One was a medical helicopter to evacuate any sort of casualties.
We do know now, Anderson, that at least two police officers were slightly wounded in this raid. However, the casualties, very, very low and very good on the part of the police.
Also, one of the interesting things about all this, there was a man who was also holed up with the terrorists in the house the entire time. And as we were reporting, we thought this was another hostage, but it appears as though the terrorist never knew that he was inside. And there are some who are saying he was possibly in contact with the police as all of this was unfolding giving them valuable information. That certainly appeared to have helped them.
The latest that we have, Anderson, is that apparently it was the two terrorists that initiated the contact with the police that then led to this siege and possibly the other siege in Paris. Because as we've been reporting throughout the entire evening, they set off almost simultaneously, Anderson.
COOPER: Right. That second siege really actually began several minutes, as many as five minutes or more after this first siege was well under way. So as you said, if in fact as you're reporting, these two terrorists actually initiated the contact, the final confrontation with police at the print shop, then the police at the store perhaps were concerned that the gunmen inside, the terrorists inside the supermarket would hear about it because they had a phone contact with others and would have initiated some action against the hostages there.
Fred, I appreciate the reporting.
More on the connection this whole crew may have had to the (INAUDIBLE) terror movement, namely, Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.
Jeremy Scahill, co-founder of the web site The Intercept. He has been hearing from his sources on that. He joins us tonight.
Jeremy, you've heard two different statements from Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. Explain both of them if you can.
JEREMY SCAHILL, CO-FOUNDER, THE INTERCEPT: Right. First, I just want to say that there's a difference between an official statement from the organization Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula which we don't yet have. What I have is two separate statements from a source who I know to be a member of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula inside of Yemen, a source that in the past has provided me with credible information. And this individual gave two statements to me. One that was a little vague about claiming responsibility but praising the attack and saying anyone that demeans the prophet Mohammed, especially in the form of cartoons deserve what they got and that it doesn't matter if these were directed by any jihadist groups. The fact that they are Muslims and did it, this is all that matters.
And then about an hour later, I received a more official sounding statement where this individual within Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula told me that the attack in Paris was, in fact, directed by AQAP. I should also note, Anderson, that there was also an audio recording posted through official channels by AQAP today by a senior cleric for AQAP. And he praised the attack but stopped short of saying they were responsible.
Generally, AQAP will ultimately claim responsibility and it generally comes through the heads of the military part of the organization and that is not happened as of yet.
COOPER: Even if they do claim responsibility for coordinating or direct in the attack, I guess, there is a couple of questions. A, what exactly does that mean, directing, if the trip to Yemen was made back in 2011, how much direction does an operation that takes place so many years later actually have? And another side of this, is it in the interest of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula to claim credit even for something that they may have not have oversight of?
SCAHILL: Yes. I mean, first of all, it benefits jihadist organizations to claim credit because it helps them with their fund raising and there's a current battle going on for supremacy with the Islamic state, ISIS, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb. So there is, you know, there really is a turf war here.
But I would say this, that in the past when AQAP has been involved directly with a plot of this nature like the failed Christmas day bomb plot with Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, sometime after the fact, they started to release photos of him and a martyr video.
And so, it is going to be really key to see if they are able to do that. It's also possible that these guys or one or both of them, went to Yemen, receive some form of training. Maybe they met with Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born cleric who has told them drawn strike in September of 2011. And that these guys gave them encouragement. And then when they went back to France, they cooked up their own plot and maybe did or maybe did not give AQAP a heads up that they are going to this attack.
COOPER: Also, the other terrorist who took over the grocery store, the supermarket today, claimed a connection or a support of ISIS. Do you see a conflict -- I mean, obviously, I know there are reports that Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula sent people to fight in Syria, or perhaps even with ISIS. But do you see some sort of either confusion or conflict or contradiction between claiming brothers claiming a link to Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and this other guy claiming some sort of allegiance and/or support for ISIS?
SCAHILL: Well, I mean, ISIS and Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula have had a fairly public sort of turf war through social media and official pronouncements. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that both groups had something to do with any of the individuals here. I also wouldn't rule out that these guys are just purely making it up to try to make themselves seem like they're big shots or try to elevate the sort of more global nature of the cause of groups like ISIS and AQAP.
But I think speculation at this point can be very, very dangerous. I think that what is responsible journalistically for us to do is to provide what we're hearing from credible sources and put it in a context that requires studying the history of how these groups take responsibility for such actions.
COOPER: Fascinating to get your perspective on it. Jeremy, I appreciate it.
SCAHILL: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Jeremy Scahill with The Intercept.
As always, you can find a whole lot more on this and many other stories at CNN.com.
Just ahead, what neighbors are revealing about the two brothers suspected of murdering 12 people, just a few blocks from where I am at the office "Charlie Hebdo" Wednesday including this police officer.
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COOPER: Well, tonight's breaking news. Manhunt still under way for four suspects. Police in France have killed three suspected terrorists including the two brothers who police say murdered 12 people in the attack here at Charlie Hebdo. The fourth terror suspect is the largest of a huge - excuse me, is the target of a huge manhunt tonight. Every hour that we are learning more about who they are and their connections has become increasingly clear, they were operating within a larger web of jihadists. "The Globe emails Mark MacKinnon talked to the neighbors of Cherif and Said Kouachi. He joins me now. What did the neighbors say?
MARK MACKINNON, SR. INTERNATINAL CORRESPONDENT, THE GLOBE AND MAIL: The most interesting conversation I had was the direct neighbor, a Tunisian woman who spoke only Arabic. And she said that she and her husband have become increasingly concerned over the months that lived beside the Kouachi brothers. To the extent that they felt they should break into the apartment and see what was happening there.
COOPER: Really? And did they break into the apartment?
MACKINNON: Yeah, her elderly husband got a plumber friend to help them out and they opened the door, broke inside of it and she said they discovered a cash of arms inside. Kouachi came home, they were shopping for groceries when this happened, came home and discovered them inside and she says they shoved her husband around, threatened him, made him promise not to tell the police. And obviously he didn't.
COOPER: So, none of them, neither of them ever went to the police about finding the cache of weapons?
MACKINNON: No, they never did. They were terrified. When I was speaking to her, she was just leaning out of the crack of the door and whispering and saying they're going to come, they are going to kill me just for talking to you. She was obviously still very, very afraid.
COOPER: Even though they're dead. She still believes that others ...
MACKINNON: It was yesterday, it was before all of this happened.
COOPER: OK. Had the police been to your knowledge been to that location?
MACKINNON: No, and she said they've come several hours after the attack on Charlie Hebdo and said they had broken into the apartment next door and arrested a woman inside, who is the wife of one of the brothers and she watched all this through - they never spoke to her or to her husband about what they'd seen.
COOPER: We believe this should be the wife of Cherif Kouachi.
MACKINNON: Yes.
COOPER: And there's now reports that the wife of Cherif Kouachi had had hundreds of phone conversations over the course of the past year with this fourth suspect who is now on the run, who is the girlfriend of the third suspect who was in the supermarket.
MACKINNON: An interesting trail of the details from the conversation. One was that she believed the woman was pregnant that had been arrested and she also said that there was a fourth man, sorry, a third man, a fourth person lived in the house. She's called them the beau frere, the brother-in-law of the brothers Kouachi who obviously would have had access to normally what they were doing and had access to the weaponry.
COOPER: Incredible that given the sheer volume of law enforcement military personnel involved in this manhunt that police had not already been there to talk to the neighbors.
MACKINNON: And I visited the local mosque as well and I spoke with the head of the local Muslim association and had a conversation about their own interactions with the Kouachi brothers, which they had some interesting moments where during a Friday sermon, the imam was urging Muslims to register and to get out and vote in the last French election. And one of the brothers got up and challenged the imam in front of everybody on Friday prayers, which is obviously quite a statement, and walked out on this. So, they had some concerns in the community and they said the police had never come and talked to them either. And that just seemed to be a real breach between the Muslim community and the value (ph) of Paris and the police.
COOPER: Interesting. Obviously, something that is part of an issue here that a larger issue needs to be addressed. Mark MacKinnon, I appreciate your reporting. Thanks for being with us.
Fascinating stuff. I want to bring in Maajid Nawaz, a former Muslim extremist and - and now an anti-extremism educator. He's the author of a remarkable called "Radical, My Journey out of Islamist Extremism." Also joining us is Mia Bloom, author of "Bombshell, the Many Faces of Women Terrorists" and professor of security studies at UMass -Lowell.
Maajid, this cache of weapons that these brothers reportedly had in the apartment according to their neighbor based on Mark's reporting, it's far harder to get access to weapons in France than it is in the U.S.
MAAJID NAWAZ, FORMER NEIGHBOR OF HIZBUT TAHRIR: Absolutely. And even more harder in Britain. And so when in European continents you find terrorists with such a cache of weapons, we must start, you know, looking for how they got a hold of them. Because it is quite a difficult thing to do. That in itself points to the levels of training and the professionalism, with which these people were able to approach this operation.
COOPER: Mia, in terms of the female suspect who's still on the run, I think a lot of people were surprised, first early this morning when French police put out a picture of a woman who they say was directly involved in the killing of the French policewoman on Thursday morning. You've spent years interviewing women who were Jihadis. You say that women are actually far more radical often than men within these organizations.
MIA BLOOM, PROFESSOR OF SECURITY STUDIES, UMASS LOWELL: In many cases in Europe, in the U.K., and perhaps even in France, it's the women who are more radical than the men and the women ensure that the men not only stay in the movement, but that they don't defect, they don't change their minds at the last minute, they don't lose their will. And so, we shouldn't really be surprised at all the women that are involved in terrorism because women have been involved in terrorism for over 45 years.
COOPER: And Mia, you say that each terror group has different roles for women, the way ISIS recruits, uses women is different than al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. How so?
BLOOM: Absolutely, so the 200 French women that have allegedly gone to Syria to Raqqa to join ISIS, these women are overwhelmingly going to be mothers and wives. They're there to populate the Islamic Caliphate, but in other groups, groups like Boko Haram and al Shabaab, and perhaps now we are seeing if this particular attack is connected to AQAP, then we are seeing women on the front lines of many of the jihadi groups that previously never use women. Women can be sharp shooters, we've seen women suicide bombers for Boko Haram, for al Shabaab and for all the Chechen groups. So, this is very, very disconcerting. COOPER: And Maajid, certainly in a number of the incidents with Chechens particularly, taking over the Moscow theater, we saw a number of women involved in that who also ended up getting killed. What do you make of the role of women in jihadi groups, Maajid?
NAWAZ: Yes, they were called the Chechen black widows. And I think running - countries all of our preconceptions about Jihadists and Islamists groups. Yes, the entire framework is misogynist and yes, they are serving ultimately a working towards establishing a caliphate in which only a man can become a caliph. However, if you look at it in the context, and everything is relative, you look at it in the context of religiously conservative Muslim societies, where women are given less of a role in public life and religion is used as an excuse for that, what the Islamist did is they came along and they offered these women a form of empowerment by saying you can take a role in public services, whether it's in hospitals, as teachers, or in this case, in fighting. And that in itself is a form of empowerment for these women. Because from a religious conservative societies, they don't have those roles. And so, relative to that, the Islamists were offering them some role in public life and this comes as no surprise, Mia, everything she's saying is correct. Women have been involved for a very long time. It runs contrary to our perceptions, but it should be no surprise to us.
COOPER: And it certainly should be of concern and interest to law enforcement, Mia. It really does, just from a standpoint of trying to keep an eye out for suspicious activity. One has to -- one can't assume that there is a very narrow look of somebody who is out to commit jihad.
BLOOM: Yeah, Anderson, precisely. And it's exactly the preconceived notions that we have of who's going to be a jihadi that the jihadi organizations are able to use against us. So, when they are going after civilians, the best kind of operative they can use is someone that's going to blend right in with civilians which are women and increasingly, children.
COOPER: And Maajid, I mean what's interesting to me also about a lot of these groups is that how much of a learning enemy they are. That, you know, people discover the shoe bomber, so then they change the tactic. And I'm wondering if the role of women, and perhaps, a rising role of women seems to be - is a reaction to try to stay one step ahead of law enforcement and others.
NAWAZ: Well, this is, in fact, you've touched on a point, which opens up a conversation about profiling. It's exactly why profiling for ethnicity or for certain features, or even for gender in this case, is - doesn't work in when we are trying to stop terrorists crossing borders and crossing - getting through airports. If we announced that we're looking for men of Middle Eastern appearance, which is often what we say in the West, then, of course, al Qaeda and other jihadi groups will very quickly switch to who they are recruiting from. Because Islam is not a race, it's a religion. There are white Muslims, black Muslims, brown Muslims, yellow Muslims, all sorts of Muslims. And, you know, so when you announce what you're looking for, as Mia
said, they will recruit the opposite, they will adapt. And that's why the Chechens, started working with this group called "The Black - the Black Widows", and that's why in fact al Qaeda a few years ago put out messaging saying that they wanted to recruit white Bosnian Muslims and white Chechen Muslims, and many - indeed, many of them having it up joining ISIL in Iraq and Syria, and they look as white as any other European.
COOPER: That's fascinating. Maajid, appreciate you being on. Maajid Nawaz is - Mia Bloom as well, thank you for your reporting. Just ahead, warnings from the State Department tonight as well as the head of Britain's internal security agency. More details on why the MI 5 chief is saying about terrorist plots that could be in the works as well as ones that have already been stopped.
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COOPER: As we've been reporting, the State Department of the United States is asking U.S. citizens to maintain a high level of vigilance in light of the recent attacks in Paris. That call obviously echoes deep concerns within the American and global intelligence community about any additional attacks. Here once again is former French special operator Fabrice Magnier. Joining us as well as former FBI and CIA senior official Philip Mudd.
Philip, you know, when you and I talked yesterday, I'm wondering about your thought just on this evening, given all that's happened today, and where the threat now lies.
PHILIP MUDD, FORMER SENIOR OFFICIAL, FBI AND CIA: Look, I think what we've realized in the past couple of days is that we're not dealing with an isolated circumstance in Paris. What we're dealing with is within the aftermath of the 9-1-1 attacks, the growth of affiliates of al Qaeda in North Africa, in Yemen, in Syria, in Iraq. We're dealing with a group of people numbering in the thousands or tens of thousands, in Europe or the United States, you might not be formally affiliated with an organization like al Qaeda in Yemen, but who might have touched them, read their ideology, in this case might have been trained by them, who have absorbed this ideology and will act on it.
Anderson, 15 years ago, 14 years ago when I sat there at CIA in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, we dealt with a small group of people in Pakistan and Afghanistan who are al Qaeda. We are now dealing with the ripple effect of the al Qaeda revolution, which is much larger than I ever would have anticipated 14 years ago. It's reaching cities from people who never were real formal members of these organizations, but who will now kill in cities like Paris or New York or Washington.
COOPER: And Fabrice, that's something you and I were talking about before and during the break. The idea that people here have to understand that there's a war going on, a war happening inside France, you believe.
FABRICE MAGNIER, FORMER FRENCH NAVY SPECIAL OPS MEMBER: Yes, I've seen it. We kept call for all French people and for all French citizens. And there's so many of our politics. There is a war, ongoing war which didn't start today or two days ago. It started ten years ago. And now we have a demonstration, it's a dramatic demonstration they are able to act. They want to act. They want to demonstrate they're at war. And we have now to think that into your account and adapt our differences to be ready.
COOPER: And yet, as you were saying, if it takes 30 people to trail one person 24 hours a day, and there are a thousand terror suspects at the least if not more, the sheer number of people, it's almost impossible to have that.
MAGNIER: Impossible to treat all those guys coming back from ISIS or whatever, al Qaeda, Yemen or other places. So that's why the situation is quite complicated because our police forces and intelligence agency are doing a great job, but I think now, that they need more people, more means to be able to face this escalation, which is like exponential. And now, we have to act very quickly because they have now a big advantage. They are ready, they are a number and they are motivated. They are determined.
COOPER: And Phil, for people in the United States, I mean U.S. intelligence relies a lot on French intelligence, on British intelligence. The sharing of information, the ability to actually even track suspects on the ground here. French intelligence as British intelligence which has that human capability and so any lapses in Western Europe have a direct effect on the intelligence picture in the United States.
MUDD: Sure they do. We can't think of this as France or Great Britain. The United States, from the adversaries perspective we're all the head of the snake, we're the enemy. What we have to look at in this case is not the national boundaries that define the United States, we have to look at what's the avenue by which these individuals might have gone to Syria, for example? We know one of them we think went to Yemen. How did they get there, how were they radicalized, did they use the same routes that somebody on the East Coast of the United States might have used? So, we have to look at this not as the U.S. security service, the FBI or the CIA, we have to look at this collectively and the French are superb at this. Collectively and say our people, thousands of them, have gone over there for training. Let's collectively say what routes they use and how are we all vulnerable?
One more comment, Anderson. I would say we have got to get out of a dialogue that suggests that this is a war. Because people are going to start to believe that there is an end to this. This is a societal cancer in our communities that will last for decades. We've got to treat it, but we never will rid ourselves of it, at least in the near term. We've got to handle it and manage it. We will not end this.
COOPER: Philip Mudd, I appreciate you being on, as always. Fabrice, as well. Thank you for your expertise. Just ahead, "Charlie Hebdo" lost ten of its staff members in Wednesday massacre, which occurs just a couple of blocks from where we're standing. The publication will live on. They're already at work on next week's edition, a million copies are going to be printed. Details on that ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. All of this, of course, began on Wednesday here near the offices of Charlie Hebdo. The offices are just down the block. This whole area obviously is still cordoned off. There is a heavy police presence throughout the whole area, but this is where as close as civilians at this point can get to the offices and we have seen over the last several days thousands of people coming here, wanting to pay their respects, wanting to bear witness, wanting to stand often in silence, in solidarity with the victims of this terror attack. And as you can see, this makeshift memorial has sprung up here. People have left notes. They've left candles and flowers. They've left pens and pencils. This is just one of several makeshift memorials. You see a lot of pens like this, just left behind, a symbol of the power of the pen against the power of the gun.
And this memorial has really just been growing and continues to grow. If you look over here, it's actually now spread all the way over to this area where there are just hundreds of bouquets of flowers and candles and also, all the way in that area. The remaining staff members of Charlie Hebdo, and there are just a few, but there are also many former staff men members and others who support the magazine who have vowed that they will continue to publish. In fact, they've announced that next Wednesday, an edition of as many as a million copies of the magazine will be printed. The cover of it has apparently already been drawn by one of the surviving cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo. They're still looking to fill the rest of the magazine. Exactly what the content is going to be, but to them, it is a symbol of the importance of speaking out.
Yesterday, I spoke to Patrick Pelloux, who's an ER doctor, who's also a columnist for the magazine and he said, if they remain silent, in the face of this attack, it would be as if his murdered colleagues had been murdered twice and that is why he wants to continue to speak out. I spoke earlier today to Caroline Fourest, who's a former staff member of Charlie Hebdo. She worked for the magazine just before it was fire bombed in 2011. I spoke to her about how she is reacting to all of this and about the importance for her and the former members of the magazine to continue a moving forward and to continue to publish. Here's that conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: First of all, I'm wondering what you thought knowing now at least two of the gunmen have been killed.
CAROLINE FOUREST, FORMER CHARLIE HEBDO JOURNALIST: I would prefer that no one have been killed today. Of course, yesterday. But at least we are out of danger from those guys at least.
COOPER: When you were there, I mean, you were there in 2011. The offices were fire bombed. How did you deal and how did your colleagues deal with the fear?
FOUREST: I left a little bit before, but we were already under the stress. During the all publishing of the cartoons about Muhammad, about the trial and the trial we had after. We did with that, we've smile, a sense of humor. Because all of my colleagues that they killed, they were (INAUDIBLE) guys, (INAUDIBLE) cartoonists and truly (ph) talantive (ph). The most funny person I've ever met. So we will always making joke about the fact that they can't kill us. No, they will say, OK, guys, now it's becoming serious. Now it's becoming serious. And someone is doing a joke and we move on.
COOPER: That's the way they dealt with it. They dealt with it with humor.
FOUREST: Of course. Of course, but I have to say that when during ten years, the stress continues that under the social networks there is people - always doing, you know, this accusation of being Islamophobic. This word for people like Charlie Hebdo, it was really I think the worst to endure.
COOPER: Being called Islamophobic.
FOUREST: Yes.
COOPER: That was the worst, why?
FOUREST: Because when you are (INAUDIBLE), when the all purpose of the newspaper of Charlie there is to fight against the extreme right, is to fight against racism. Charlie - we've been supported a lot the organization, which fights, for example, against the anti-Arab racism. Being accused of being Islamophobic is really ridiculous, but it is really painful and we also know that in that context, being called Islamophobic every day, not only by the Islamists, but sometimes also by people who find them excuses, it's just the way to put a target on your back and that one day a crazy fanatic will do the job.
COOPER: What do you make when you've seen the outpouring of tens of thousands of people here in Paris, all throughout France and Amsterdam and Berlin, all throughout the world standing in solidarity with signs saying we are not afraid holding up pens. I'm just wondering on a personal level, what is it like for you to see that?
FOUREST: It was exactly what they would have wanted to see. I'm speaking about my dead colleagues and friends. I mean, when we did all of that during all of this news, continuing no matter what, we were probably and I was prepared to see that one day, one of us will be killed. Honestly, not so much. Not on this very primitive barbaric way, but probably. But why I didn't expect it this incredible reaction. This global massive incredibly moving reaction. As you see, maybe they did kill my colleague men, my friends, but they didn't kill the spirit of Charlie Hebdo. They cannot kill the spirit of Charlie Hebdo. They cannot kill the fact that we wanted to resist them and we want to resist to this fanatism not by bomb, not by being brutal and racist as they are. By drawing, by humor, by being just human beings.
COOPER: Caroline, thank you very much.
FOUREST: Thank you.
COOPER: Appreciate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, there's a lot more to cover. We are live all throughout the next hour here on CNN. We're going to take a short break and our coverage continues. We'll be right back.
